JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Watson Phillips on April 12, 2025, 09:31:18 PM
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One of the first things thrown at Oswald in custody being interrogated was FBI Agent Hosty asking Him if he had been to the embassy in Mexico City !
A question the FBI already knew the answer to of course.
In fact every question they asked him , questions which had absolutely nothing to do with the assassination itself: WERE YOU IN THE MILITARY ? DID YOU RECEIVE ANY MEDALS? HAVE YOU BEEN TO RUSSIA?
were questions they already had all the answers to.
https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/pdf/WR_A11_ReportsDPD.pdf
And Oswald makes clear that he was aware that for some length of time he could not fart without the FBI/CIA knowing about it .
It is obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that as far as the FBI was concerned Oswald was not even supposed to be breathing at this point and they were gauging just how he was going to play his cards, & how many beans he was going to spill given the chance to spill them, before he could be silenced .
Little wonder that no intention of making a live recording of the United States President's assassin under questioning was even attempted .
What a mistake it would be to have the Assassin suddenly blurt out that "yes I killed the President " and have it all on tape ????
What experienced Law Enforcement investigator would ever make such a career ending mistake as thinking having a recording device turned on at the moment the killer confesses was a smart thing to do ???
What I really want to know is with the FBI/CIA crawling right up Oswald's behind , watching his every move weeks before the president came to town how in the world was there not a couple dozen agents from each agency waiting to pounce on him like a duck on a June bug as he took up his snipers position in that sixth floor window ?
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Question #1: What were the names of the people in the FBI/CIA who were following his "every move"? The agent's names please.
Question #2: If they were following every move he made why did the FBI agent assigned to monitor him, James Hosty, say he didn't know where Oswald lived during the week? The Beckley Street rooming house? And who in the CIA was following him? Again, what agents? Names, please? How were they following his every move?
Not only were they not, in my opinion, following his every move they didn't know where he lived during the week. Nobody did. Not from October 3 when he arrived in Dallas from Mexico City to the assassination. And Hosty only learned that Oswald was living at the Paine house on weekends on October 30.
Here is Hosty (WC testimony) on the first interview with Ruth (pre-assassination):
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
She told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but she thought she could find out and she would let me know."
So Hosty says he didn't know where Oswald was living. How could he be monitoring Oswald's moves if he didn't know this?
Again: Could you provide the names of the FBI/CIA agents who were monitoring Oswald during that period?
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Question #1: What were the names of the people in the FBI/CIA who were following his "every move"? The agent's names please.
https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/pdf/WR_A11_ReportsDPD.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 1, FBI Dallas Chief Bookhout requests that FBI Agent Hosty be allowed to question Oswald because " he knew about these people & has been investigating them"
Page 3, paragraph 2, Oswald complains that FBI Agent Hosty has been accosting and harassing his wife .
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Question #2: If they were following every move he made why did the FBI agent assigned to monitor him, James Hosty, say he didn't know where Oswald lived during the week? The Beckley Street rooming house? And who in the CIA was following him? Again, what agents? Names, please? How were they following his every move?
Agent Hosty also asked Oswald if he had been in the military .
Do you believe agent Hosty was asking Oswald if he had been in the military because the FBI did not know ?
Agent Hosty also asked Oswald if he had been to Russia .
Do you really believe the FBI was not sure if Oswald had been to Russia ?
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One of the first things thrown at Oswald in custody being interrogated was FBI Agent Hosty asking Him if he had been to the embassy in Mexico City !
A question the FBI already knew the answer to of course.
In fact every question they asked him , questions which had absolutely nothing to do with the assassination itself: WERE YOU IN THE MILITARY ? DID YOU RECEIVE ANY MEDALS? HAVE YOU BEEN TO RUSSIA?
were questions they already had all the answers to.
https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/pdf/WR_A11_ReportsDPD.pdf
And Oswald makes clear that he was aware that for some length of time he could not fart without the FBI/CIA knowing about it .
It is obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that as far as the FBI was concerned Oswald was not even supposed to be breathing at this point and they were gauging just how he was going to play his cards, & how many beans he was going to spill given the chance to spill them, before he could be silenced .
Little wonder that no intention of making a live recording of the United States President's assassin under questioning was even attempted .
What a mistake it would be to have the Assassin suddenly blurt out that "yes I killed the President " and have it all on tape ????
What experienced Law Enforcement investigator would ever make such a career ending mistake as thinking having a recording device turned on at the moment the killer confesses was a smart thing to do ???
What I really want to know is with the FBI/CIA crawling right up Oswald's behind , watching his every move weeks before the president came to town how in the world was there not a couple dozen agents from each agency waiting to pounce on him like a duck on a June bug as he took up his snipers position in that sixth floor window ?
Blimey, yer full of bloody beans!
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https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/pdf/WR_A11_ReportsDPD.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 1, FBI Dallas Chief Bookhout requests that FBI Agent Hosty be allowed to question Oswald because " he knew about these people & has been investigating them"
Page 3, paragraph 2, Oswald complains that FBI Agent Hosty has been accosting and harassing his wife .
Sorry, that is not evidence of anyone monitoring "every move" that Oswald made. James Hosty HIMSELF said he didn't know where Oswald was living during the week. If he didn't know where Oswald lived - the N. Beckley rooming house - then how could he be monitoring Oswald at all? He didn't know he lived there.
And even though he knew Oswald lived with Ruth Paine during the week how is that monitoring "every move" Oswald made? It's not. It's not monitoring any move. Did Hosty know what Oswald did on the weekends? Where Oswald went? Who he met? Of course not.
Hosty testified that he was informed that the Oswalds had moved into the Dallas area (no address given) on October 3. But he NO IDEA where they were living. If he didn't know where they were living how could he be monitoring Oswald at all?
Here is his testimony:
Mr. STERN. What did you do on October 3 and thereafter?
Mr. HOSTY. Well, there wasn't too much to go on, just a woman driving a station wagon with a Texas license plate. I went to the immigration office to check to see if they had any information, tried to determine if we had any persons around the area, I tried to think of anyone who spoke Russian who had a station wagon and who was a friend of Marina Oswald's. I went to Fort Worth and checked in his old neighborhood, Lee and Marina's old neighborhood, attempted to locate Robert Oswald, his brother, and determined that Robert Oswald had left the Fort Worth area, had moved to Arkansas.
I then sent out a lead to the Little Rock office which covered the area of Malvern, Ark., where Robert Oswald was living, and requested that he be contacted to see if he knew where Lee Oswald was. Then I continued checking through the Dallas and Fort Worth area attempting to determine if the Oswalds had returned to the Dallas or Fort Worth areas.
So he had no idea where Oswald was living. None. This is not monitoring "every move" by Oswald. In fact, it's not monitoring any move.
Hosty said he learned on OCTOBER 29TH that the Oswalds were living with Ruth Paine.
Mr. HOSTY. Very much so, yes. I became curious then. Shortly thereafter, on the 29th of October, I received another communication from the New Orleans office advising that they had a change of address for Lee and Marina Oswald to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.
Mr. STERN. You received that information when?
Mr. HOSTY. On the 29th of October.
So from October 3 to October 29th Hosty had no idea where Oswald lived. And he never knew where Oswald lived during the week.
Again, nobody was monitoring Oswald's "every move."
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Here is Hosty below admitting that he didn't know where Oswald lived during the week. If he didn't know where Oswald lived then how could he be monitoring "every move" Oswald made? Obviously he couldn't. Were there *any* other FBI or CIA agent monitoring Oswald? None have been offered.
Hosty (WC testimony) on the first interview with Ruth Paine (pre-assassination):
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
She told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but she thought she could find out and she would let me know."
Again, they didn't know where Oswald was living.
In Hosty's book, he said he interviewed Ruth after the assassination and she said: "You know, Mr. Hosty, when you first visited on the first of November you were asking us where Lee lived. We didn't know exactly but we have his phone number. Would that have helped you?"
"It would have been useful", I said. "I could have gotten his address from the phone company."
"Oh, I am so sorry, I should have realized that."
Not to be too repetitive but again Hosty just explained that he didn't know where Oswald lived and Ruth and Marina didn't know either. But they had the phone number where he lived and had they provided to him he could have found out. Hosty also said that he had other cases, other people to follow including the far right Birchers in the area. Obviously he couldn't be closely monitoring Oswald every day AND also watch these other cases even if he knew where Oswald lived. He's just one person.
The original claim that "Oswald's every move was monitored by the FBI/CIA" is simply not true. It can't be because they weren't aware of where he lived. Even if they did know that's not monitoring "every move" he made. In order to monitor every move they would need to assign agents who followed him around, who saw where he went, who he met. And there is absolutely no evidence at all that anyone in the FBI or CIA was following his "every move."
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You're full of bloody beans.
So why do you think they decided not to record a word of what Oswald answered under questioning ?
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Sorry, that is not evidence of anyone monitoring "every move" that Oswald made. James Hosty HIMSELF said he didn't know where Oswald was living during the week. If he didn't know where Oswald lived - the N. Beckley rooming house - then how could he be monitoring Oswald at all? He didn't know he lived there.
So the FBI found where Oswald was gainfully employed everyday but that was of no help in finding where he went when he left the book depository because Oswald was just to smart for them ? :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
So to your way of thinking the FBI could not figure out where Oswald disappeared to everyday after he walked out of the Book depository ?
Really ?
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So why do you think they decided not to record a word of what Oswald answered under questioning?
"So . . . So . . . So . . . ."
The evil, evil, evil DPD didn't tape record interrogations back in the day.
Why not?
Answer: So evil, evil, evil DPD officers could torture completely innocent people into "confessing" and put words in their mouths!!!
(sarcasm)
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In fact, J. Edgar Hoover was so angry at the incompetence of the FBI in monitoring the Oswalds that he punished 17 agents including Hosty. This was more Keystone Cops than Gestapo. Conspiracy believers see an all powerful secret "they" working behind the scenes, controlling and manipulating events at will. Sorry, that's simply not how it was.
Oswald defected to the USSR during the height of the Cold War. He denounces the US and disappears. Then he returns with a Soviet wife. What happened when he was there? Of course the FBI would be keeping track of where the Oswalds (both of them not just him) went. But that's not "every move monitored." And their monitoring of the Oswalds was so incompetent that it infuriated Hoover.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12322284048/Keyxlpdftdhhuv2/Hoover punishment.JPG)
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A couple of years ago, I read an excellent scholarly book - alas, I now can't locate the title - that surveyed conspiracy thinking throughout American history and was fairly sympathetic to the conspiracists. The author's point was that, IN EVERY CASE, there had in fact been incompetence, malfeasance and cover-up on the part of the supposed conspirators. IN EVERY CASE, however, the conspiracy theories that arose had NOTHING TO DO with the actual incompetence, malfeasance and cover-up. In other words, the supposed conspirators were simply typical bumbling bureaucrats who really had only themselves to blame for the wild conspiracy theories that arose out of their incompetence and malfeasance and efforts to cover up.
Insofar as the JFKA is concerned, the CIA, FBI, SS and DPD all had egg on their faces. All were engaged in CYA scrambling. This was the real cover-up; not a cover-up of their involvement in the JFKA but of their incompetence and malfeasance in failing to identify Oswald as a potential threat. The notion that they were "monitoring every move" of Oswald is precisely what the book describes as occurring with other historical events that gave rise to conspiracy theories: i.e., the notion isn't irrational, but it is 180 degrees off-base.
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In fact, J. Edgar Hoover was so angry at the incompetence of the FBI in monitoring the Oswalds ...
How was the FBI incompetent ?
They knew exactly where Oswald worked everyday :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
They knew he obtained a rifle.
They knew of his post-assassination escape plan thru his visit to the embassy in Mexico city
They knew that the Oswald's was working in a building that was literally a sniper's dream nest in terms plugging the president as his scheduled motorcade was to pass close enough for Oswald to spit on him.
What else did they need to know ?
Add to that they had the Secret Service completely informed and updated on the threat Oswald presented with his rifle purchase, escape plan, and his working in a dream sniper's nest high above the upcoming Presidential motorcade route.
How could they have Monitored all the threats that Oswald presented any better ?
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A couple of years ago, I read an excellent scholarly book - alas, I now can't locate the title - that surveyed conspiracy thinking throughout American history and was fairly sympathetic to the conspiracists. The author's point was that, IN EVERY CASE, there had in fact been incompetence, malfeasance and cover-up on the part of the supposed conspirators. IN EVERY CASE, however, the conspiracy theories that arose had NOTHING TO DO with the actual incompetence, malfeasance and cover-up. In other words, the supposed conspirators were simply typical bumbling bureaucrats
How did they bumble, the FBI had obtained every critical fact with regard to the threat Oswald presented before the President passed like sitting duck underneath the workplace snipers nest Oswald had established for himself ?
How was the FBI Bumbling ?
Their investigation of Oswald told them exactly where Oswald worked everyday :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
They knew he had obtained a rifle.
They knew of his post-assassination escape plan thru his visit to the embassy in Mexico city
They knew that the Oswald was working in a building that was literally a sniper's dream nest in terms plugging the president as his scheduled motorcade was to pass close enough for Oswald to spit on him.
How does obtaining all this critical information they had obtained on Oswald amount to "bumbling" on the FBI's part ?
Add to that they had the Secret Service completely informed and updated on the threat Oswald presented with his rifle purchase, escape plan, and his working in a dream sniper's nest high above the upcoming Presidential motorcade route, as it was customary for the Secret Service to be informed by local FBI of potential threats in any city the President was planning to visit .
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In fact, J. Edgar Hoover was so angry at the incompetence of the FBI in monitoring the Oswalds that he punished 17 agents including Hosty. This was more Keystone Cops than Gestapo. Conspiracy believers see an all powerful secret "they" working behind the scenes, controlling and manipulating events at will. Sorry, that's simply not how it was.
Oswald defected to the USSR during the height of the Cold War. He denounces the US and disappears. Then he returns with a Soviet wife. What happened when he was there? Of course the FBI would be keeping track of where the Oswalds (both of them not just him) went. But that's not "every move monitored." And their monitoring of the Oswalds was so incompetent that it infuriated Hoover.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12322284048/Keyxlpdftdhhuv2/Hoover punishment.JPG)
So with 17 FBI agents knowing Oswald had purchased a rifle with scope, was employed every day in the perfect snipers nest above the upcoming Presidential Motorcade route what was the reason these 17 agents all say they deliberately excluded Oswald's name from the list of local threats handed over to the Secret Service Advance Team ?
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At most, the FBI knew Oswald was politically suspect and occasionally kept tabs on him. They had no basis until 11.22.63 to believe that Oswald was violent or might commit an act of violence. He was just one of thousands of similar loons that they monitored. The DPD apparently did not record interrogations at the time. That was not a standard practice. They started asking Oswald questions that they already knew the answers to see if he lied and to get him talking. It is revealing to see what he would admit and what he might lie about. You are making Mt. Everest out of a molehill.
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At most, the FBI knew Oswald was politically suspect and occasionally kept tabs on him. They had no basis until 11.22.63 to believe that Oswald was violent or might commit an act of violence. He was just one of thousands of similar loons that they monitored. The DPD apparently did not record interrogations at the time. That was not a standard practice. They started asking Oswald questions that they already knew the answers to see if he lied and to get him talking. It is revealing to see what he would admit and what he might lie about. You are making Mt. Everest out of a molehill.
The "tabs" they kept on him were poorly done, half-measures, off and on. I'm repeating myself but it seems to be necessary: Hosty, the agent assigned to keep track of the Oswalds, said he never knew where they lived from October 3 to October 30. Again: he didn't know where they were. On October 30th, he finds out they are living on weekends with the Paines. But he doesn't know where Oswald was living during the week.
Again, from October 3 to the day of the assassination the agent assigned to keep track of Oswald never knew where he lived on weekdays and evenings. Even when Hosty was told about the Mexico City visit and the meeting at the Soviet Embassy with Kostikov he doesn't interview Oswald. In his defense, he said his attention at that time was on watching the Birchers and Far Right, the Walker people. They were considered (rightly) a more serious threat.
The claim that "Oswald's every move was monitored by the FBI/CIA" is simply not supported by what we know. It didn't happen. I don't know how many times one has to say this.
In conspiracy world the FBI and CIA and "thuh government" are always on top of things, everyone is a brilliant on the ball agent, a cog in this smoothly running and controlled machine. In reality stupidity and laziness and sloppiness and bureaucratic inertia is how it really works. But that's what the CIA told me to write (ahem).
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At most, the FBI knew Oswald was politically suspect and occasionally kept tabs on him. They had no basis until 11.22.63 to believe that Oswald was violent or might commit an act of violence. He was just one of thousands of similar loons that they monitored. The DPD apparently did not record interrogations at the time. That was not a standard practice. They started asking Oswald questions that they already knew the answers to see if he lied and to get him talking. It is revealing to see what he would admit and what he might lie about. You are making Mt. Everest out of a molehill.
The FBI knew Oswald had purchased a rifle with scope, as well as the fact he was employed in the book depository close enough to the proposed presidential motorcade route to spit on the president .
In what alternate universe are you referring to where Oswald would not be at the top of the list of local nuts handed from the FBI to the Secret Service's Advance team ?
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The "tabs" they kept on him were poorly done, half-measures, off and on.
What detail was the FBI lacking I ask for the second time ?
They knew exactly where Oswald worked everyday :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
They knew he obtained a rifle with scope
They knew of his post-assassination escape plan thru his visit to the embassy in Mexico city
They knew that Oswald was working everyday in the book depository that was literally a sniper's dream nest in terms of shooting the president , like shooting fish in a barrel as his upcoming scheduled presidential motorcade was to pass close enough for Oswald to spit on him.
Exactly what monitored moves were they unaware of that caused 17 FBI agents to not include Oswald on the list of local threats handed over to the Secret Service's Advance team ?
It must have been very important detail they neglected to Monitor , please tell me what detail it was that had they only known would have caused the FBI to list Oswald in their report to the Secret Service's Advance team , and would have prevented the president from getting his head blown off , I can't stand the suspense , do tell what the critical detail was that their "poorly" conducted investigation kept them in the dark about ?
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All the ridiculous claims about what the FBI knew are simply not true. Making ridiculous claims without any supporting evidence and jumping to even more ridiculous conclusions is nonsense.
I suggest that if you want to know what actually happened, start reading what the people who were there and in a position to know these things have written. James Hosty wrote a book (“Assignment Oswald”) in which he provides many details. Here’s a snip or two from his book:
The first thing I did on Monday morning [11/4/63] was to send an Airtel to the New Orleans office asking them to transfer the files on the Oswalds, as I had now reestablished my jurisdiction.
I didn’t want to conduct an interview with Marina until I ascertained what New Orleans had done or not done. For all I knew, the Bureau might have conducted a series of in-depth interviews of both Oswalds. I decided I had to wait for New Orleans to send me all of its reports on the Oswald case. I didn’t get the file, and the official transfer of the cases, until early on November 22, 1963. All New Orleans sent me was a New Orleans Police Department mug shot of Lee. No reports on any interviews or anything else.
This is only one example of the bureaucratic inefficiencies and delays typical of the FBI in those days. Even though Hosty had sent an air tel message on 11/4/63 requesting the Oswalds files, it wasn’t until 11/22/63 that he received them (along with official transfer of their cases). That is an eighteen-day time span.
Watching LHO’s every move? Nope!
Knew he had a rifle with a scope? I haven’t seen any evidence that they knew this.
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All the ridiculous claims about what the FBI knew are simply not true. Making ridiculous claims without any supporting evidence and jumping to even more ridiculous conclusions is nonsense.
I suggest that if you want to know what actually happened, start reading what the people who were there and in a position to know these things have written. James Hosty wrote a book (“Assignment Oswald”) in which he provides many details. Here’s a snip or two from his book:
Watching LHO’s every move? Nope!
Does James Hosty say that not just the FBI but the CIA were monitoring Oswald as well.
Exactly WHY does Agent Hosty say both the FBI and CIA were obsessed with monitoring Oswald ?
Was it because considered Oswald to be a non-threating individual of no significance ?
Please tell me why Agent Hosty says both the FBI & CIA felt a need to follow Oswald ?
What was it Hosty says they were trying to discover ?
"The CIA Was Monitoring Oswald in the Months Before JFK's Murder
Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in 1959 before returning with his Soviet-born wife, Marina, to the United States in 1962. The CIA was monitoring Oswald on his September 1963 trip to Mexico City—a mere month before the shooting. While in Mexico, Oswald visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies and even voiced plans to kill Kennedy. The CIA downplayed their knowledge of Oswald’s travels to the Warren Commission.
“They lied outright to the Warren Commission,” says Shenon. “The whole cover story from the CIA and FBI after the assassination was that Oswald was this lone wolf who could never have been foreseen as a threat before the assassination. The truth is the FBI and CIA were closely surveilling Oswald in the weeks and months before the assassination. Both agencies were terrified that their failure to subdue Oswald would be revealed publicly and they missed evidence that could have allowed them to preempt Kennedy’s murder" - Jessica Pearce Rotondi
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Does James Hosty that not just the FBI but the CIA were monitoring Oswald as well.
Exactly WHY does Agent Hosty say both the FBI and CIA were obsessed with monitoring Oswald ?
Was it because considered Oswald to be a non-threating individual of no significance ?
Please tell me why Agent Hosty says both the FBI & CIA felt a need to follow Oswald ?
What was it Hosty says they were trying to discover ?
"The CIA Was Monitoring Oswald in the Months Before JFK's Murder
Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in 1959 before returning with his Soviet-born wife, Marina, to the United States in 1962. The CIA was monitoring Oswald on his September 1963 trip to Mexico City—a mere month before the shooting. While in Mexico, Oswald visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies and even voiced plans to kill Kennedy. The CIA downplayed their knowledge of Oswald’s travels to the Warren Commission.
“They lied outright to the Warren Commission,” says Shenon. “The whole cover story from the CIA and FBI after the assassination was that Oswald was this lone wolf who could never have been foreseen as a threat before the assassination. The truth is the FBI and CIA were closely surveilling Oswald in the weeks and months before the assassination. Both agencies were terrified that their failure to subdue Oswald would be revealed publicly and they missed evidence that could have allowed them to preempt Kennedy’s murder" - Jessica Pearce Rotondi
So, where exactly does Hosty say what you just claimed that Hosty said? You apparently quoted someone named Jessica Pearce Rotondi. I don’t know who that person is.
For your information here is what Hosty actually wrote about this:
The day the president arrived in Dallas, I gave no thought to the connection between Lee Oswald and the fact that one of the Texas School Book Depository’s two warehouses was on the parade route for the presidential party. At the time I had no information to indicate that Lee was violent or capable of killing anyone, much less the president. Lee had made no threats that I knew of. To me Lee and Marina were just routine espionage cases. All I was trying to find out was whether either one of them was a spy for the Soviets. Period..
According to someone who knew, the reason both the CIA and FBI were interested in the Oswalds was for a potential for espionage. That is all.
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So, where exactly does Hosty say what you just claimed that Hosty said? You apparently quoted someone named Jessica Pearce Rotondi. I don’t know who that person is.
For your information here is what Hosty actually wrote about this:
The day the president arrived in Dallas, I gave no thought to the connection between Lee Oswald and the fact that one of the Texas School Book Depository’s two warehouses was on the parade route for the presidential party. At the time I had no information to indicate that Lee was violent or capable of killing anyone, much less the president. Lee had made no threats that I knew of. To me Lee and Marina were just routine espionage cases. All I was trying to find out was whether either one of them was a spy for the Soviets. Period..
This makes Hosty negligent liar based on his failure to act on what he says he knew , negligence & lies on his part that directly resulted in the president getting his head blown off.
Hosty says he knew Oswald worked at the Book depository , a virtual snipers nest looking down on the Presidents upcoming motorcade :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
And yet Hosty failed to inform the Secret Service Advance team preparing the route for the President's motorcade of what he suspected could be a Russian asset with a documented violent history with firearms sitting in a 6th floor snipers nest looking down on the President like shooting fish in a barrel.
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So, where exactly does Hosty say what you just claimed that Hosty said? You apparently quoted someone named Jessica Pearce Rotondi. I don’t know who that person is.
For your information here is what Hosty actually wrote about this:
The day the president arrived in Dallas, I gave no thought to the connection between Lee Oswald and the fact that one of the Texas School Book Depository’s two warehouses was on the parade route for the presidential party. At the time I had no information to indicate that Lee was violent or capable of killing anyone, much less the president. Lee had made no threats that I knew of. To me Lee and Marina were just routine espionage cases. All I was trying to find out was whether either one of them was a spy for the Soviets. Period..
According to someone who knew, the reason both the CIA and FBI were interested in the Oswalds was for a potential for espionage. That is all.
It appears to me that Watson may be misunderstanding what he is reading.
Jessica Pearce Rotondi ("Roto" to close friends like me) is a young woman who writes about anything and everything in her quest for a writing career. The article Watson quotes seems to be the only thing Roto has ever written about the JFKA. It's a short piece, "8 Facts About the John F. Kennedy Assassination" at the History Channel website, https://www.history.com/articles/kennedy-assassination-facts-oswald-warren-commission. The quote she attributes to Shenon is found nowhere else. Even AI steers you to Roto's article.
That being said, Shenon has long emphasized that the CIA and FBI were less than candid with the WC about their own malfeasance in regard to Oswald. His point is exactly the one that I and others have been making: their cover-up was of their own malfeasance, not of some role in the JFKA. He has never suggested that they were "closely monitoring" Oswald in the weeks and months before the JFKA. Watson, it appears to me, is expanding Shenon's point into something more dark and sinister than simple bureaucratic incompetence and the inevitable attempt to hide it. Surely what the CIA and particularly FBI did know about Oswald should have been communicated to the SS before the JFKA.
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This makes Hosty negligent liar based on his failure to act on what he says he knew , negligence & lies on his part that directly resulted in the president And yet Hosty failed to inform the Secret Service Advance team preparing the route for the President's motorcade of what he suspected could be a Russian asset with a documented violent history with firearms sitting in a 6th floor snipers nest looking down on the President like shooting fish in a barrel.
"Documented violent history with firearms" - ?
You also speak as though "the FBI" were some monolithic entity. "The FBI" in this instance was Hosty. The whole point of people like Shenon is that better intra-agency and inter-agency communication would have at least put Oswald's employment in the TSBD on the SS's radar screen. (It's entirely possible the SS would have been satisfied he was harmless as well. Hindsight is always 20-20.)
Other than the fact that the CIA, FBI and SS dropped the ball, which everyone agrees is true, what is your point?
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After the assassination, Hoover ordered one of his top agents, James Gale, to review the FBI's surveillance of Oswald. Gale came back with a scathing review of the failure of the agents to adequately keep track of the Oswalds. Among other things: they completely failed to interview Marina; they took Oswald off the security indices list; and Hosty failed to interview Oswald after learning about Oswald's visit to Mexico City and his meeting with Soviet officials (Kostikov most notably) at the Embassy. And so on.
The FBI was simply not monitoring every move that Oswald made.
The brief account below is from Philip Shenon's book "A Cruel and Shocking Act."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12324470537/Keyi6050k1af2cd/hoover on oswald.JPG)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12324470532/Keyeisxabwoxdwc/hoover on oswald two.JPG)
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, it appears to me, is expanding Shenon's point into something more dark and sinister than simple bureaucratic incompetence and the inevitable attempt to hide it. Surely what the CIA and particularly FBI did know about Oswald should have been communicated to the SS before the JFKA.
For the third time now, in what alternate universe does the FBI failure to inform the President's Secret Service Advance team that the proposed motorcade will be passing directly underneath a building with a 6th floor sniper's nest containing what Hosty is on record as saying is a possible Russian asset currently under investigation , with a known documented history of criminal violence & firearms convictions , fit the description of "simple bureaucratic
incompetence?
Simple incompetence involving 17 individual experienced FBI agents all failing to inform the Secret Service Advance team of an individual under active criminal investigation , sitting directly above the motorcade ?
REALLY?
It takes some king-kong size giblets to own up the failure of 17 experienced FBI agents to include in their possible threat list to the Secret Service Advance Team what would have prevented the murder of President to being "Simple bureaucratic incompetence " and then call other people "conspiracy theorists "
A location in spitting proximity of the presidential motorcade Agent Hosty says he had full knowledge of :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
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"Documented violent history with firearms" - ?
You also speak as though "the FBI" were some monolithic entity. "The FBI" in this instance was Hosty. The whole point of people like Shenon is that better intra-agency and inter-agency communication would have at least put Oswald's employment in the TSBD on the SS's radar screen. (It's entirely possible the SS would have been satisfied he was harmless as well. Hindsight is always 20-20.)
Other than the fact that the CIA, FBI and SS dropped the ball, which everyone agrees is true, what is your point?
A suspected russian asset currently under FBI investigation as such ,with a documented history of criminal violence towards authority figures , criminal use of illegal firearms , being considered "harmless" enough to be sitting in a 6th floor snipers nest within spitting distance to the President ?
It takes some king-kong size giblets to own up the failure of 17 experienced FBI agents, the CIA & SS to include in their possible threat list an individual with a documented history of criminal violence towards authority figures , criminal use of illegal firearms , and then call other people "conspiracy theorists "
You do concede there was a threat list of individuals shared between the FBI & SS for the Presidents visit to Dallas, as is standard procedure to this day don't you ? Yes, No
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"Documented violent history with firearms" - ?
Oswald's government documented conviction one for illegal possession and discharge of a firearm.
The other for his assault of a superior officer .
A criminal history of firearms & violent tendency that investigating FBI Agent Hosty and any other federal law enforcement official with two brain cells to rub together would be well aware of and take into consideration in comprising their list of possible threats to be handed to the Secret Service Advance Team prior to the Presidents Dallas visit .
==============================================================================================
"April 11, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, April 11, 1958. Being the "Charge Sheet" which contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, as well as names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. On October 27, 1957, Oswald accidentally shot himself in the left elbow with his personal .22 derringer. Possession of such a firearm was in direct violation of "a lawful general order... by having in his possession a privately-owned weapon that was not registered." Following a three-week stay at the Yokosuka Naval Hospital and various unrelated delays, Oswald's court-martial commenced on April 11, 1958, at which time Commanding Officer and Convening Authority Lt. Col. N.D. Glenn made his judgment. Oswald was demoted from private first class to private and ordered "To be confined at hard labor for 20 days, to forfeit $25.00 per month for two months and to be reduced to the grade of private... Approved and ordered executed, but the confinement at hard labor for twenty days is suspended for six months, at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for twenty days will be remitted without further action."
June 24, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document Signed. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, June 24, 1958. This "Charge Sheet" contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, the names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. Just two months after his first court-martial, Oswald was brought before a second military court on charges that he insulted and assaulted a superior officer."
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After the assassination, Hoover ordered one of his top agents, James Gale, to review the FBI's surveillance of Oswald. Gale came back with a scathing review of the failure of the agents to adequately keep track of the Oswalds. Among other things: they completely failed to interview Marina; they took Oswald off the security indices list; and Hosty failed to interview Oswald after learning about Oswald's visit to Mexico City and his meeting with Soviet officials (Kostikov most notably) at the Embassy. And so on.
The FBI was simply not monitoring every move that Oswald made.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12324470537/Keyi6050k1af2cd/hoover on oswald.JPG)
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID12324470532/Keyeisxabwoxdwc/hoover on oswald two.JPG)
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
Are you saying the FBI did not have full knowledge that Oswald had a custom made snipers nest directly above the President's motorcade as a fringe benefit of his daily employed presence at the school Book depository ?
That is a YES or a NO by the way ?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/QtFJC6Kk/revillletter.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/QtFJC6Kk/revillletter.png) (https://postimages.org/)
And not one word that the Secret Service has been informed by the FBI that they knew a potential assassin would be sitting in Book depository's 6th floor Cat Bird seat .
The only reasonable conclusion being that is just the way the FBI wanted it .
There again if the CIA was up to speed on all this before they typed this letter it seems quite possible that the FBI were not the only ones that liked the way the table had been set Thumb1:
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"A few months after the assassination, I asked Gordon Shanklin why the bureau didn't at least tell the Dallas police about Oswald, and where he worked. I observed that the cops surely would have wanted to babysit such a character.
"We didn't want him to lose his job," Shanklin explained."
[ Hugh Aynesworth, JFK: Breaking the News (2003) ]
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"A few months after the assassination, I asked Gordon Shanklin why the bureau didn't at least tell the Dallas police about Oswald, and where he worked. I observed that the cops surely would have wanted to babysit such a character.
"We didn't want him to lose his job," Shanklin explained."
[ Hugh Aynesworth, JFK: Breaking the News (2003) ]
Sounds like the Bureau wanted everybody else on the outside looking in .
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There are usually two sides to “stories” like these. It is prudent to consider both sides. Here is a small snippet from James Hosty’s book “Assignment Oswald” regarding the memo:
Two of my fellow agents, Bob Barrett and Ike Lee, later told me about their conversation with Revill after the story broke. Revill told Barrett and Lee that he had not wanted his November 22 memo to be released to the Warren Commission or the press, but police chief Jesse Curry threatened to charge Revill with filing a false police report if Revill wouldn’t swear to the truth in his memo. The police then got a memo from Detective Jackie Bryan, who had been standing near Revill and me during this brief garage conversation. Contrary to Aynes-worth’s assertion, Bryan supported my version of the events. He reported that he did not hear me make any kind of comment suggesting I knew Oswald was capable of killing the president.
The first four paragraphs of Revill’s five-paragraph memo were accurate. But the last paragraph, the incendiary paragraph, appears to have been added as an afterthought.
The memo read:
November 22, 1963
Captain W.P. Gannaway Special Service Bureau
Subject: Lee Harvey Oswald
605 Elsbeth Street
Sir:
On November 22, 1963, at approximately 2:50 P.M., the undersigned officer met Special Agent James Hosty of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the basement of the City Hall.
At that time Special Agent Hosty related to this officer that the subject was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.
The Subject was arrested for the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit and is a prime suspect in the assassination of President Kennedy.
The information regarding the Subject’s affiliation with the Communist Party is the firss information this officer has received from the Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding same.
Agent Hosty further stated that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was aware of the Subject and that they had information that this Subject was capable of committing the assassination of President Kennedy.
Respectfully submitted,
Jack Revill, Lieutenant Criminal Intelligence Section
Logically, that last paragraph should have been inserted into the second paragraph where Revill is quoting me. The fifth paragraph’s information is much more dramatic thtn everything else in the memo, so why didn’t Revill put it up higher? Could it be because he inserted it later?
I wasn’t the only one to question the veracity of Revill’s memo. The Warren Commission ordered the FBI’s forensic document experts to analyze it to determine if the police had added the last paragraph after November 22. Unfortunately, the police had only supplied the Commission and the FBI forensic lab with a photocopy of the memo. Because they did not have the original memo on which to conduct a microscopic examination, the forensic lab could make no determinations.
On April 27, 1964, William A. Murphy, a retired FBI agent who had been the Dallas SAC, wrote Shanklin a letter. Murphy, just like the rest of the country, had read the press accounts quoting Revill’s memo.
Murphy told Shanklin that on December 20, 1963, he had confronted Chief Curry about remarks he had made shortly after midnight the night of the assassination at a press conference. The chief had announced that the FBI knew Oswald was in town but had not warned the Dallas police. During the December 20 meeting, Murphy asked Curry what his basis was for that comment to the press. Later, in early January 1964, Curry asked Murphy to come to his office so that he could explain his November 23 comments. Curry pulled from his desk drawer the original copy of the Revill memo and handed it to Murphy.
Murphy took his time, and carefully read and reread the memo, which he described as “on Police Department memorandum stationery, from Lt. Revill to either Captain Gannaway or to Chief Curry.” Murphy read Revill’s comment that I had reported on November 22 that Oswald was a Communist and living in Dallas.
Most critically, Murphy insisted to Shanklin, “This entire memorandum consisted of approximately three to four brief paragraphs, and positively there was no information set forth in that memorandum indicating that Hosty had in any way represented that Oswald had any dangerous tendencies or that he was in any way considered capable of assassinating the president.” Murphy was adamant on this point. He told Shanklin that if the memo had reported I knew Oswald was capable of killing the president, Shanklin could be assured that he would have immediately reported that to the FBI. Murphy also pointed out to Shanklin that Curry, during his press conference on November 23, made no mention about the FBI supposedly knowing that Oswald was capable of killing the president.
Murphy strongly resented that the Dallas police were trying to discredit me and the FBI. Murphy didn’t say it, but he was directly implying that sometime after early January 1964, the police had added that explosive last paragraph to the Revill memo.
As I said earlier, there are typically two sides to these types of stories. Has anyone ever come across the memo from Detective Jackie Bryan? Or, perhaps the Murphy letter to Shanklin?
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Mr. HOSTY. "No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the
statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the
President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
Thumb1: yet, there it is in real time:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338946/m1/1/
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There are usually two sides to “stories” like these. It is prudent to consider both sides. Here is a small snippet from James Hosty’s book “Assignment Oswald” regarding the memo:
Two of my fellow agents, Bob Barrett and Ike Lee, later told me about their conversation with Revill after the story broke. Revill told Barrett and Lee that he had not wanted his November 22 memo to be released to the Warren Commission or the press, but police chief Jesse Curry threatened to charge Revill with filing a false police report if Revill wouldn’t swear to the truth in his memo. The police then got a memo from Detective Jackie Bryan, who had been standing near Revill and me during this brief garage conversation. Contrary to Aynes-worth’s assertion, Bryan supported my version of the events. He reported that he did not hear me make any kind of comment suggesting I knew Oswald was capable of killing the president.
The first four paragraphs of Revill’s five-paragraph memo were accurate. But the last paragraph, the incendiary paragraph, appears to have been added as an afterthought.
How could any FBI agent with two brain cells to rub together investigating Oswald as a Russian Asset , not be aware of his criminal record showing propensity for Violence towards authority figures and illegal firearms given his record convictions for both?
"April 11, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, April 11, 1958. Being the "Charge Sheet" which contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, as well as names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. On October 27, 1957, Oswald accidentally shot himself in the left elbow with his personal .22 derringer. Possession of such a firearm was in direct violation of "a lawful general order... by having in his possession a privately-owned weapon that was not registered." Following a three-week stay at the Yokosuka Naval Hospital and various unrelated delays, Oswald's court-martial commenced on April 11, 1958, at which time Commanding Officer and Convening Authority Lt. Col. N.D. Glenn made his judgment. Oswald was demoted from private first class to private and ordered "To be confined at hard labor for 20 days, to forfeit $25.00 per month for two months and to be reduced to the grade of private... Approved and ordered executed, but the confinement at hard labor for twenty days is suspended for six months, at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for twenty days will be remitted without further action."
June 24, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document Signed. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, June 24, 1958. This "Charge Sheet" contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, the names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. Just two months after his first court-martial, Oswald was brought before a second military court on charges that he insulted and assaulted a superior officer."
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Mr. HOSTY. "No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the
statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the
President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
Thumb1: yet, there it is in real time:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338946/m1/1/
How could any FBI agent with two brain cells to rub together investigating Oswald as a Russian Asset , not be aware of his criminal record showing propensity for Violence towards authority figures and illegal firearms given his record convictions for both?
"April 11, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, April 11, 1958. Being the "Charge Sheet" which contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, as well as names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. On October 27, 1957, Oswald accidentally shot himself in the left elbow with his personal .22 derringer. Possession of such a firearm was in direct violation of "a lawful general order... by having in his possession a privately-owned weapon that was not registered." Following a three-week stay at the Yokosuka Naval Hospital and various unrelated delays, Oswald's court-martial commenced on April 11, 1958, at which time Commanding Officer and Convening Authority Lt. Col. N.D. Glenn made his judgment. Oswald was demoted from private first class to private and ordered "To be confined at hard labor for 20 days, to forfeit $25.00 per month for two months and to be reduced to the grade of private... Approved and ordered executed, but the confinement at hard labor for twenty days is suspended for six months, at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for twenty days will be remitted without further action."
June 24, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document Signed. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, June 24, 1958. This "Charge Sheet" contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, the names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. Just two months after his first court-martial, Oswald was brought before a second military court on charges that he insulted and assaulted a superior officer."
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Mr. HOSTY. "No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the
statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the
President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
Thumb1: yet, there it is in real time:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338946/m1/1/
I recall from my reading of Walt Brown's voluminous JFKA works (his Chronology is over a million words) that there was some backstory to the Revill-Hosty or Revill-FBI relationship. Unfortunately, I can't recall what it was. Given the paranoia that permeated the FBI thanks to Hoover, I guess we have to ask how likely it is that an FBI field agent like Hosty would have made a bombshell statement like that to an officer of another agency? We would also have to ask what possible factual basis there would have been for such a statement - i.e., what would have caused Hosty or anyone else to "know" that Oswald "was capable of assassinating the President of the United States"? One guess would be that the statement was an invention by Revill and attributable to some sort of bad blood between him and Hosty or him and the FBI. Or perhaps Revill simply misunderstood what Hosty had said. I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.
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How could any FBI agent with two brain cells to rub together investigating Oswald as a Russian Asset , not be aware of his criminal record showing propensity for Violence towards authority figures and illegal firearms given his record convictions for both?
"April 11, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, April 11, 1958. Being the "Charge Sheet" which contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, as well as names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. On October 27, 1957, Oswald accidentally shot himself in the left elbow with his personal .22 derringer. Possession of such a firearm was in direct violation of "a lawful general order... by having in his possession a privately-owned weapon that was not registered." Following a three-week stay at the Yokosuka Naval Hospital and various unrelated delays, Oswald's court-martial commenced on April 11, 1958, at which time Commanding Officer and Convening Authority Lt. Col. N.D. Glenn made his judgment. Oswald was demoted from private first class to private and ordered "To be confined at hard labor for 20 days, to forfeit $25.00 per month for two months and to be reduced to the grade of private... Approved and ordered executed, but the confinement at hard labor for twenty days is suspended for six months, at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for twenty days will be remitted without further action."
June 24, 1958 Court-Martial: Partly Printed Document Signed. Two two-sided pages, 8" x 12.5", Atsugi Japan, June 24, 1958. This "Charge Sheet" contains Oswald's typed information as the accused, the names of witnesses, information provided by commanding officers, Oswald's punishment, and other remarks. Just two months after his first court-martial, Oswald was brought before a second military court on charges that he insulted and assaulted a superior officer."
On this thread as well, I must put your "violent criminal" portrayal of Oswald in perspective:
1. An 18-year-old kid manages to shoot himself in the elbow at his locker in the barracks with a .22 Derringer that he possesses in contravention of military regulations. The discharge occurs while he is reaching into his locker for shaving cream. He is charged with "wrongful conduct" but not charged with the more serious "misconduct' because it's a minor incident.
2. The same kid, while drunk, accidentally (that was the court finding) spills a drink on a Technical Sergeant, who then shoves him, and the two end up in a minor altercation outside. He is convicted of only one of the charges against him - "using provocative words."
3. For 3+ years in the USSR and U.S., the individual's only brush with the law is for disturbing the peace in violation of a New Orleans municipal ordinance, for which he is fined $10.
4. He was not "under investigation for being a Russian asset." As a former defector with a Russian wife who openly engaged in pro-Castro activities, he was of routine interest to the FBI with no indication he was dangerous or a Russian asset.
5. At the time of the JFKA, he was working as a temporary order filler in a grungy warehouse with some 95 other people, most of whom were employees of well-known publishing companies. He did not have a "workplace on the 6th floor" - it was simply one of the floors from which he filled book orders. There was no "sniper's test" until the day of the JFKA. Every window in every building along the motorcade route was a potential sniper's nest (not to mention all the other locations from which CTers think shots were fired!).
You are simply engaging in the sort of long-after-the-fact, ad hoc "analysis" that is the lifeblood of conspiracy thinking. The day before the assassination, Oswald was simply a young oddball the SS probably should have been told about. After the JFKA, he was an obvious threat, a ticking time bomb, a violent criminal who should have been in shackles a week before the assassination. The reality is, if the SS had been told about him, they like the FBI might well have concluded he was not a threat.
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How was the FBI incompetent ?
They knew exactly where Oswald worked everyday :
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
They knew he obtained a rifle.
They knew of his post-assassination escape plan thru his visit to the embassy in Mexico city
They knew that the Oswald's was working in a building that was literally a sniper's dream nest in terms plugging the president as his scheduled motorcade was to pass close enough for Oswald to spit on him.
What else did they need to know ?
Add to that they had the Secret Service completely informed and updated on the threat Oswald presented with his rifle purchase, escape plan, and his working in a dream sniper's nest high above the upcoming Presidential motorcade route.
How could they have Monitored all the threats that Oswald presented any better ?
They knew he obtained a rifle.
Ok, so "they" knew Oswald received a rifle some time shortly after the 20th of March and then not much later on the 10th of April, General Walker, who lived about 6.5 miles away, survived an assassination attempt, why do you think the obvious assassin Oswald who you claim the FBI was monitoring extremely closely, wasn't a suspect?
Because a search of Oswald's possessions would have provided a very clear link?
Kleins sent the rifle on the 20th of March.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgvGhSqx/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg)
A photo of Walker's home taken with the same camera that took Oswald's family photos and the Backyard photos.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7cJhvJg/Walker-Home-by-LHO.jpg)
Another photo of Walker's home, also taken by Oswald's camera, was taken very close to where the attempted assassination took place.
An examination of certain construction work appearing in the background of this photograph revealed that the picture was taken between March 8 and 12, 1963.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#walker
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncgthYxg/ce-2-walker.jpg)
JohnM
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I recall from my reading of Walt Brown's voluminous JFKA works (his Chronology is over a million words) that there was some backstory to the Revill-Hosty or Revill-FBI relationship. Unfortunately, I can't recall what it was. Given the paranoia that permeated the FBI thanks to Hoover, I guess we have to ask how likely it is that an FBI field agent like Hosty would have made a bombshell statement like that to an officer of another agency? We would also have to ask what possible factual basis there would have been for such a statement - i.e., what would have caused Hosty or anyone else to "know" that Oswald "was capable of assassinating the President of the United States"? One guess would be that the statement was an invention by Revill and attributable to some sort of bad blood between him and Hosty or him and the FBI. Or perhaps Revill simply misunderstood what Hosty had said. I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.
I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.
It is nowhere near as unlikely as Revill making up such a statement and putting it on the record within hours of the assassination.
The gravity of Revill's accusation can hardly be underestimated, he had basically placed the DPD at loggerheads with the FBI. What gave him the authority to do that?
Why would it have occurred to Revill that Hosty had some kind of relationship with a suspect arrested for the murder of J D Tippit? How would Revill know this suspect had Communist links?
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I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.
It is nowhere near as unlikely as Revill making up such a statement and putting it on the record within hours of the assassination.
The gravity of Revill's accusation can hardly be underestimated, he had basically placed the DPD at loggerheads with the FBI. What gave him the authority to do that?
Why would it have occurred to Revill that Hosty had some kind of relationship with a suspect arrested for the murder of J D Tippit? How would Revill know this suspect had Communist links?
The WC testimony of Hosty and Revill went into some detail about this matter of Hosty apparently telling Revill that Oswald was capable of assassinating Kennedy.
First of all Revill considered Hosty to be his friend.
Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?
Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.
Revill recalls being pretty sure but acknowledges that he might have misunderstood Hosty's claim.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?
Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.
Mr. RANKIN. Are those his exact words?
Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall. Give him the benefit of the doubt; I might have misunderstood him. But I don't believe I did, because the part about him being in Dallas, and the fact that he was a suspected Communist, I understand by the rules of the Attorney General they cannot tell us this, but the information about him being capable, I felt that we had taken a part in the security measures for Mr. Kennedy, and if such, if such information was available to another law enforcement agency, I felt they should have made it known to all of us, and I asked Hosty where he was going at that time.
Revill doesn't remember Hosty telling him about Oswald being in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. They thought this man was capable of being an assassin?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And yet you say that Agent Hosty just blurted that out?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you remember about it?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; all that I remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make this----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question that comes right along with that? Did he say anything to you about his having been in Russia and redefected?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. That did not come up in this conversation?
Mr.REVILL. No, sir.
Whereas Hosty specifically recalls telling Revill that Oswald was in Russia.
Mr. HOSTY. Very chaotic. The press was swarming all over the Police station. There were television cameras. being brought into the building. Many people were running, coming and going. The place was a beehive of activity.
I parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at which time I observed a Dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, in which there were four detectives. The man sitting on the right-hand side of the front seat next to the driver was a man I recognized as Lieutenant Revill. He signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came over towards me. The rest of the detectives in the ear continued down the ramp to be parked.
We then proceeded in, Lieutenant Revill and I proceeded into the police department and started up the stairs. Lieutenant Revill advised me that--I might add he was in a very excited state--he advised me that he had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from the Texas School Book Depository who could not be accounted for was a man named Lee.
Now this conversation took place at approximately 3 p.m., about an hour after Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested by the Dallas Police Department. I told Lieutenant Revill that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, and that he was the man who had defected to Russia and had returned to the United States in 1962.
And the final word from Hosty seems to make sense in that up until that time, Oswald showed no indication that he was violent and from what was known about Oswald, this is a true statement.
Mr. STERN. What did that story state?
Mr. HOSTY. It stated in substance, alleged that I was aware that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, but did not dream he would do it.
Mr. STERN. Did you say that?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
I also want to state at this time that I made no statement to Lieutenant Revill or to any other individual at any time that I or anyone else in the FBI knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States or possessed any potential for violence.
Prior to the assassination of the President of the United States, I had no information indicating violence on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald. I wish the record to so read.
For reference, Hosty's testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm
Revill's testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/revill.htm and https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/revill2.htm
JohnM
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On this thread as well, I must put your "violent criminal" portrayal of Oswald in perspective:
1. An 18-year-old kid manages to shoot himself in the elbow at his locker in the barracks with a .22 Derringer that he possesses in contravention of military regulations. The discharge occurs while he is reaching into his locker for shaving cream. He is charged with "wrongful conduct" but not charged with the more serious "misconduct' because it's a minor incident.
2. The same kid, while drunk, accidentally (that was the court finding) spills a drink on a Technical Sergeant, who then shoves him, and the two end up in a minor altercation outside. He is convicted of only one of the charges against him - "using provocative words."
3. For 3+ years in the USSR and U.S., the individual's only brush with the law is for disturbing the peace in violation of a New Orleans municipal ordinance, for which he is fined $10.
4. He was not "under investigation for being a Russian asset." As a former defector with a Russian wife who openly engaged in pro-Castro activities, he was of routine interest to the FBI with no indication he was dangerous or a Russian asset.
5. At the time of the JFKA, he was working as a temporary order filler in a grungy warehouse with some 95 other people, most of whom were employees of well-known publishing companies. He did not have a "workplace on the 6th floor" - it was simply one of the floors from which he filled book orders. There was no "sniper's test" until the day of the JFKA. Every window in every building along the motorcade route was a potential sniper's nest (not to mention all the other locations from which CTers think shots were fired!).
You are simply engaging in the sort of long-after-the-fact, ad hoc "analysis" that is the lifeblood of conspiracy thinking. The day before the assassination, Oswald was simply a young oddball the SS probably should have been told about. After the JFKA, he was an obvious threat, a ticking time bomb, a violent criminal who should have been in shackles a week before the assassination. The reality is, if the SS had been told about him, they like the FBI might well have concluded he was not a threat.
Anyone who has spent more than one stint no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops
TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
(service included two courts martial and
incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
(time included three days in Botkinskaya
Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
TIME
13 months at age 3-4
1 month at age 13
3-9 months at age 15
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The WC testimony of Hosty and Revill went into some detail about this matter of Hosty apparently telling Revill that Oswald was capable of assassinating Kennedy.
First of all Revill considered Hosty to be his friend.
Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?
Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.
Revill recalls being pretty sure but acknowledges that he might have misunderstood Hosty's claim.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?
Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.
What law enforcement officer with half a brain would have thought and individual prone to suicide . AS MOST ASSASSINS ARE, and who has active file with FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, among others would ever be a potential problem being within spitting distance of a U.S. President ?
TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
(service included two courts martial and
incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
(time included three days in Botkinskaya
Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
TIME
13 months at age 3-4
1 month at age 13
3-9 months at age 15
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Anyone who has spent more than one stint no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops
TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
(service included two courts martial and
incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
(time included three days in Botkinskaya
Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
TIME
13 months at age 3-4
1 month at age 13
3-9 months at age 15
should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
Top 5?? I doubt Oswald would make the top 100!
You can't be serious? These "crimes" by Oswald are of the pussy variety, Where is the armed hold-ups? Stabbings? Shooting people(other than himself)? Bashing the snot out of people, even one? Where did Oswald spend time in a real prison for a real crime?
Hosty had from anywhere from 25 to 40 people that he was monitoring at any one time and I bet there was some real proven violent psychopaths on that list!
JohnM
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Anyone who has spent more than one stint no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops
TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
(service included two courts martial and
incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
(time included three days in Botkinskaya
Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
TIME
13 months at age 3-4
1 month at age 13
3-9 months at age 15
On neither thread on which I have raised the issue have you addressed what you think the significance of all this is. We can stipulate that, in retrospect, the CIA and FBI were not as diligent and coordinated in monitoring Oswald as they should have been. I am not willing to stipulate that what they knew necessarily should have required notice to the SS, but I'll do so for the sake of argument. I am certainly not willing to stipulate that the SS would have found Oswald to be a threat and would have taken any action at all, but I'll even do that for the sake of argument.
The issue remains: What point are you making? Simply that the CIA and FBI dropped the ball? That this somehow factors into some JFKA conspiracy? That it somehow explains Oswald's patsy statement? Surely you can clearly and succinctly explain what point you're making - can't you?
I find your litany of Oswald's "Disciplinary Career" almost comical. THAT is the background of someone the CIA and FBI should have concluded was an obvious threat to JFK? Yep, those little fiends from the Bethlehem Children's Home should be on the SS's radar the rest of their lives. How many people along that motorcade route do you think had backgrounds that would make Oswald look like a choir boy - "oodles and gobs," as Tom would ask?
Can you REALLY not see what you are doing - i.e., applying after-the-fact, ad hoc reasoning? We KNOW that Oswald shot JFK. Ergo, he was obviously someone capable of shooting JFK. Ergo, whatever his background was, it was the background of someone capable of shooting JFK. Ergo, the CIA and FBI should have known (or did know) about that background and should have alerted the SS about this obvious threat to JFK. Ergo, if they had, the SS would have had Oswald under control and the JFKA never would have happened. Ergo, since the CIA and/or FBI did not do this, there was a conspiracy and Oswald was a mere patsy.
It's almost a perfect example of ad hoc Conspiracy Thinking. Try explaining your point in a way that makes it look like something other than a perfect example of Conspiracy Thinking.
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After the fact of any violent act, there are often some red flags. Almost no one commits such extreme acts without some prior indication of being unbalanced. Before the fact, however, an individual like Oswald would have fallen into a bucket with tens of thousands of other non-violent political loons that the FBI kept tabs on. There were likely also thousands more with violent histories. Nothing particularly distinguished Oswald from any other such other person. It is only with the benefit of hindsight that an argument can be made that the FBI should have singled out Oswald for greater scrutiny. It is interesting that in this CTer fantasy it is implicitly conceded that Oswald was a violent person capable of assassinating JFK and that he did order and obtain a rifle. Very interesting.
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After the fact of any violent act, there often some red flags. Almost no one commits such extreme acts without some prior indication of being unbalanced. Before the fact, however, an individual like Oswald would have fallen into a bucket with tens of thousands of other non-violent political loons that the FBI kept tabs on. There were likely also thousands more with violent histories. Nothing particularly distinguished Oswald from any other such other person. It is only with the benefit of hindsight, that an argument can be made that the FBI should have singled out Oswald for greater scrutiny. It is interesting that in this CTer fantasy it is implicitly conceded that Oswald was a violent person capable of assassinating JFK and that he did order and obtain a rifle. Very interesting.
You've made exactly the point I was about to make to Watson: If Oswald was such a screamingly obvious threat to JFK, why would Watson have any difficulty in putting 2+2 together and accepting that Oswald did in fact shoot JFK? That's why I keep challenging Watson to explain what point he thinks he's making.
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Banging my spoon on my high chair again: Here is Hosty in his WC testimony on what he thought about Oswald and what his, Hosty's, plans were to do with him. Note he said that he had 25-40 other cases to handle and he had other matters to take care of. And he was the *only* agent assigned to keep track of the Oswalds at that time. As he admitted, he took "no action" on the Oswalds from between November 5 and the assassination. Nothing.
Once again for the fourth? fifth? time, the original claim that the "FBI/CIA" were monitoring Oswald's "every move" weeks before the assassination is simply false. They weren't. Not only were they not monitoring his "every move" from November 5th onward they, i.e., Hosty, weren't monitoring him at all.
Whether they should have watched him more closely or not is another discussion. Hoover certainly thought so; or said so because he was covering for himself. But the agents in the field thought otherwise and what they *actually* did as opposed to what they were supposed to do is the question. And the answer is: Not a heckuva lot.
Mr. STERN. Putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation of Lee Harvey Oswald based on the work that you had done and the reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in November?
Mr. HOSTY. Well, there were many questions to be resolved. I was quite interested in determining the nature of his contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. I had not resolved that on the 22d of November. We were still waiting to resolve that. Prior to that, I mean that would be the only thing----
Mr. STERN. What had you planned to do after November 5 about this case?
Mr. HOSTY. Well as I had previously stated, I have between 25 and 40 cases assigned to me at any one time. I had other matters to take care of. I had now established that Lee Oswald was not employed in a sensitive industry. I can now afford to wait until New Orleans forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me I now had all the information. It was then my plan to interview Marina Oswald in detail concerning both herself and her husband's background.
Mr. STERN. Had you planned any steps beyond that point?
Mr. HOSTY. No. I would have to wait until I had talked to Marina to see what I could determine, and from there I could make my plans.
Mr. STERN. Did you take any action on this case. between November 5 and November 22?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm
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Banging my spoon on my high chair again: Here is Hosty in his WC testimony on what he thought about Oswald and what his, Hosty's, plans were to do with him. Note he said that he had 25-40 other cases to handle and he had other matters to take care of. And he was the *only* agent assigned to keep track of the Oswalds at that time. As he admitted, he took "no action" on the Oswalds from between November 5 and the assassination. Nothing.
Once again for the fourth? fifth? time, the original claim that the "FBI/CIA" were monitoring Oswald's "every move" weeks before the assassination is simply false. They weren't. Not only were they not monitoring his "every move" from November 5th onward they, i.e., Hosty, weren't monitoring him at all.
Whether they should have watched him more closely or not is another discussion. Hoover certainly thought so; or said so because he was covering for himself. But the agents in the field thought otherwise and what they *actually* did as opposed to what they were supposed to do is the question. And the answer is: Not a heckuva lot.
Mr. STERN. Putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation of Lee Harvey Oswald based on the work that you had done and the reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in November?
Mr. HOSTY. Well, there were many questions to be resolved. I was quite interested in determining the nature of his contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. I had not resolved that on the 22d of November. We were still waiting to resolve that. Prior to that, I mean that would be the only thing----
Mr. STERN. What had you planned to do after November 5 about this case?
Mr. HOSTY. Well as I had previously stated, I have between 25 and 40 cases assigned to me at any one time. I had other matters to take care of. I had now established that Lee Oswald was not employed in a sensitive industry. I can now afford to wait until New Orleans forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me I now had all the information. It was then my plan to interview Marina Oswald in detail concerning both herself and her husband's background.
Mr. STERN. Had you planned any steps beyond that point?
Mr. HOSTY. No. I would have to wait until I had talked to Marina to see what I could determine, and from there I could make my plans.
Mr. STERN. Did you take any action on this case. between November 5 and November 22?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm
In his book “Assignment Oswald”, Hosty explains why he had some legitimate concerns about Marina and the possibility of her being a “sleeper” agent for the Soviets. Hosty was in the security division of the FBI and mostly concerned with counter-espionage efforts.
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On neither thread on which I have raised the issue have you addressed what you think the significance of all this is. We can stipulate that, in retrospect, the CIA and FBI were not as diligent and coordinated in monitoring Oswald as they should have been. I am not willing to stipulate that what they knew necessarily should have required notice to the SS, but I'll do so for the sake of argument. I am certainly not willing to stipulate that the SS would have found Oswald to be a threat and would have taken any action at all, but I'll even do that for the sake of argument.
The issue remains: What point are you making? Simply that the CIA and FBI dropped the ball? That this somehow factors into some JFKA conspiracy? That it somehow explains Oswald's patsy statement? Surely you can clearly and succinctly explain what point you're making - can't you?
I find your litany of Oswald's "Disciplinary Career" almost comical. THAT is the background of someone the CIA and FBI should have concluded was an obvious threat to JFK? Yep, those little fiends from the Bethlehem Children's Home should be on the SS's radar the rest of their lives.
So if a suicidal russian defector who stated in writing he would be more than happy to "kill Americans in Uniform if Russia was ever invaded" (Oswald) camped out in a 6th floor snipers nest close enough to spit on the motorcade , never gave Hosty not even millisecond of concern, Agent Hosty must have been significantly worried about some actual really bad ass Killers ?
Yes?
I know you can name all the other real life bad ass killers that Hosty states in his tell all book he was kept at awake at night worrying over as the president's visit drew near so why don't you just tell us who Agent Hosty states in his tell all book was the number #1 Bad ass threat on the list he handed over to the Secret service ?
Must be a real scary individual that worried Hosty so much he placed him #1 on his official threat list ?
Please tell us who this real #1 bad ass Hosty says in his tell all book was the real threat he knew was capable of killing the President and just worried him so ?
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So if a suicidal russian defector who stated in writing he would be more than happy to "kill Americans in Uniform if Russia was ever invaded" (Oswald) camped out in a 6th floor snipers nest close enough to spit on the motorcade , never gave Hosty not even millisecond of concern, Agent Hosty must have been significantly worried about some actual really bad ass Killers ?
Yes?
I know you can name all the other real life bad ass killers that Hosty states in his tell all book he was kept at awake at night worrying over as the president's visit drew near so why don't you just tell us who Agent Hosty states in his tell all book was the number #1 Bad ass threat on the list he handed over to the Secret service ?
Must be a real scary individual that worried Hosty so much he placed him #1 on his official threat list ?
Please tell us who this real #1 bad ass Hosty says in his tell all book was the real threat he knew was capable of killing the President and just worried him so ?
Your first sentence literally makes no sense.
Just explain the point you are trying to make. JUST DO THAT.
The FBI, you say, should have realized Oswald was an obvious threat to JFK and should have alerted the SS, but they didn't.
OK - and so what? Just explain in clear terms that even a LNer can understand what you think the significance of this is. How does it relate to whatever your pet conspiracy theory is? How does it relate to Oswald saying he was a patsy of the arresting officers?
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Your first sentence literally makes no sense.
Just explain the point you are trying to make. JUST DO THAT.
The FBI, you say, should have realized Oswald was an obvious threat to JFK and should have alerted the SS, but they didn't.
OK - and so what? Just explain in clear terms that even a LNer can understand what you think the significance of this is. How does it relate to whatever your pet conspiracy theory is? How does it relate to Oswald saying he was a patsy of the arresting officers?
We know it wasn't Oswald that concerned the FBI at all because you told us so .
So Please do tell us who the real scary, threatening, bad ass, violent person was that so worried Agent Hosty that day.
We know it was not Oswald, so it had to be somebody else ?
What's the name of the real assassin type individual Hosty identified in his tell all book who really concerned him and kept him up at night ?
Who was it that Agent Hosty states in his tell all book that posed the real threat to assassinate the President in Dallas that day, and who occupied so many of the FBI's resources as they watched him like a hawk as the presidents Motorcade rolled thru town that day .
Please give the name of the person FBI Agent Hosty identified to the Secret Service Advance Team in writing as the #1 threat to assassinate the President in Dallas ?
We know it was not Oswald because you informed us of that .
So who does Agent Hosty state was the real super bad ass threat to the President in Dallas that day that he put at the top of his list ?
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We know it wasn't Oswald that concerned the FBI at all because you told us so .
So Please do tell us who the real scary, threatening, bad ass, violent person was that so worried Agent Hosty that day.
We know it was not Oswald, so it had to be somebody else ?
What's the name of the real assassin type individual Hosty identified in his tell all book who really concerned him and kept him up at night ?
Who was it that Agent Hosty states in his tell all book that posed the real threat to assassinate the President in Dallas that day, and who occupied so many of the FBI's resources as they watched him like a hawk as the presidents Motorcade rolled thru town that day .
Please give the name of the person FBI Agent Hosty identified to the Secret Service Advance Team in writing as the #1 threat to assassinate the President in Dallas ?
We know it was not Oswald because you informed us of that .
So who does Agent Hosty state was the real super bad ass threat to the President in Dallas that day that he put at the top of his list ?
Is it just me, or is anyone else noticing that Watson is rather pointedly avoiding the straightforward question as to what point he is trying to make?
I will move on because you clearly are unwilling or unable to answer what point you are trying make, to other than that you think Oswald was an obvious threat whom the FBI should have brought to the attention of the SS.
Is this your only point? You make no attempt to relate it to any conspiracy theory or to Oswald's claim of being a patsy? You just repeat "Oswald was an obvious threat" like a parrot? It seems to me you are expending an awful lot of energy if this is your only point, but I'll let others try to pin you down if they wish.
(Your thread title about "every move" being monitored by the FBI/CIA has been pretty well demolished, eh? The truth is pretty much the opposite.)
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Is it just me, or is anyone else noticing that Watson is rather pointedly avoiding the straightforward question as to what point he is trying to make?
The point is you are quick to say who was not a concern to Hosty that day .
Namely Oswald.
So I am following up your assertion of who was of no concern to Agent Hosty by asking who was of his greatest concern?
Sort of like night follows day.
You have quoted Agent Hosty as saying Oswald was of no threat in his mind.
So who was the most serious threat to the President according to Agent Hosty?
There had to be somebody in Dallas that Hosty did believe was a real threat to assassinate the president
What was the name of this person who was a real actual threat who had Hosty's attention?
I can't be the first one who has ever asked such an obvious question.
If you don't know the answer, just say so rather than evading a simple question .
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We do know, of course, that the SS in Dallas was not notified BY THE SS ITSELF of the statements by Joseph Milteer ("From an office building with a high-powered rifle") or the arrest of Thomas Arthur Vallee, both of whom were "just a bit" more obvious of a threat than was Oswald. We do know, of course, that the SS in Dallas made no attempt to screen buildings in Dallas, despite the statements of Milteer, and that during the motorcade SS agents were instructed to watch the crowd rather than the windows of buildings. We do know that the HSCA found there was no reason for special concern in Dallas that would have triggered the SS criteria to screen specific buildings. We do know these things - don't we? If not, read the HSCA report: https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1d.html.
Vallee, who was free man on 11-22-63, was "outspokenly opposed to President Kennedy's foreign policy." Chicago police "found an M-1 rifle, a handgun and 3,000 rounds of ammunition in his automobile." Before JFK's trip to Dallas, the SS learned "he was a Marine Corps veteran with a history of mental illness while on active duty; he was a member of the John Birch Society and an extremist in his criticism of the Kennedy administration; and he claimed to be an expert marksman."
Now THAT, one might think, is what an obvious threat to JFK looked like. Nevertheless, "The committee also learned that the information the Secret Service obtained on Vallee was not forwarded to the agents responsible for the President's trip to Texas on November 21-22, although it was transmitted to Protective Research Section upon receipt on October 30."
Again, the SS ITSELF did not notify the SS in Dallas of Milteer, Vallee or the need to be concerned about rifles in tall buildings. Any failure on the part of Hosty in regard to Oswald looks like rather small potatoes in comparison - except in ad hoc retrospect, of course, where hindsight is always 20-20 even if it makes no sense.
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Let’s set the stage for the FBI’s role in JFK’s visit to Dallas on 11/22/63. This is a snip from “Assignment Oswald” by James Hosty, these are the very first few paragraphs in chapter one:
Monday, November 18, 1963
TIME: 8:15 A.M.
“Okay, let’s have some quiet and get started.”
Gordon Shanklin, the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) of the Dallas-Fort Worth FBI office, had called an impromptu meeting of the forty or so agents present in the squad room. I closed a file I was reviewing at my desk and gave my attention to Shanklin.
“As you probably all read over the weekend in the Dallas Morning News, President Kennedy and Vice President Johnson will be coming to Dallas this Friday,” Shanklin said. “Frankly, this is news to me, and I confess it ticks me off to learn it first in the press. I just called headquarters and was told the Morning News story was the first they knew of Kennedy’s visit to Dallas, too. It seems everyone was told except the FBI. I have to assume the FBI liaison with the White House isn’t what it used to be.
“At any rate, I called this meeting to remind you all of a few things. As you probably know, the Secret Service wants no help from the FBI in protecting the president or his party. Vince Drain here” — Shanklin nodded toward Drain, who was sitting across from me at another desk — “has already made contact with the Dallas Secret Service office, but was politely rebuffed. He was told in so many words they needed no help from us.
“Because of all this, we’re going to do everything by the book, which means if any of you know of any threats of any kind to the president or vice president, refer them to the Secret Service. I want you all to err on the side of caution. If you have any doubt about whether to report a piece of information to the Secret Service, go ahead and report it. Let’s be on the safe side.... Okay, that’s it. Let’s get back to work.”
I think it is interesting that the FBI wasn’t informed of the visit earlier. Also that Vincent Drain was told that the Secret Service needed no help from the FBI. Perhaps the rumors that JFK and JEH didn’t like each other very much have some merit.
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Now for some comments from James Hosty (in his book “Assignment Oswald”) regarding who their concerns were focused on just after the meeting on 11/18/63 described in the above post:
My caseload in the four-man counter-intelligence squad in the Dallas office was dominated by right-wingers. I spent much of my time tracking the movements and actions of both Klan members and members of former U.S. Army General Edwin Walker’s radical militia group, known as the Minutemen. Convinced there was a Communist hiding under every bush, the Minutemen had been quietly and discreetly arming themselves with an impressive arsenal of weapons. In the eyes of the Minutemen, Kennedy was at best a dupe of the Communists, at worst a Communist collaborator.
Among the agents this morning, everyone was discussing this right-wing element in Dallas and the fact that in all likelihood a threat to the president would come from that direction.
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Let’s continue with James Hosty’s account for the following day from his book “Assignment Oswald”:
Tuesday, November 19, 1963
TIME: 7:00 P.M.
After finishing supper with my family, I sat down to read the evening newspaper, the Dallas Times Herald. There under the bold headline, KENNEDY virtually INVITESCUBAN COUP, the story began: “President Kennedy all but invited the Cuban people to overthrow Fidel Castro’s Communist regime and promised prompt U.S. aid if they do. Kennedy’s encouragement of a Cuban coup was contained in a major foreign policy speech before the Inter-American Press Association Monday in Miami Beach, Florida. The President said it would be a happy day if the Castro government is ousted.”
.
.
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The newspaper also reported that on Friday, when Kennedy visited Dallas, he would speak at a luncheon to be held at the Dallas Trade Mart just off the Stemmons Freeway, also known as I-35E. The article also included a general description of the route Kennedy would take through downtown Dallas.
Several of LHO’s coworkers testified that LHO usually read newspapers that were left in the break room (aka: Domino Room). So, we have reason to believe that LHO probably saw and read these and was probably aware by Wednesday 11/20/63 that JFK was going to be in town and his motorcade was going to be traveling in the vicinity of the TSBD. The article that was apparently published in the Tuesday evening Dallas Times Herald paper, regarding JFK’s desire for a coup against Castro, I believe could have angered LHO to an extent that he might begin to contemplate taking a shot at JFK.
Meanwhile, even though LHO and Marina are on the FBI’s radar due mostly to his continued interest in communism (and especially her potential for being a sleeper agent), the FBI apparently has had no indication that LHO was potentially violent or a threat to JFK.
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Now for some comments from James Hosty (in his book “Assignment Oswald”) regarding who their concerns were focused on just after the meeting on 11/18/63 described in the above post:
My caseload in the four-man counter-intelligence squad in the Dallas office was dominated by right-wingers. I spent much of my time tracking the movements and actions of both Klan members and members of former U.S. Army General Edwin Walker’s radical militia group, known as the Minutemen. Convinced there was a Communist hiding under every bush, the Minutemen had been quietly and discreetly arming themselves with an impressive arsenal of weapons. In the eyes of the Minutemen, Kennedy was at best a dupe of the Communists, at worst a Communist collaborator.
Among the agents this morning, everyone was discussing this right-wing element in Dallas and the fact that in all likelihood a threat to the president would come from that direction.
Looking for "Right Wingers" under every rock is a convenient excuse for Hosty's "Squad" being supposedly completely ignorant and oblivious to the more recent multi-level threats to Kennedy's life due to his Bay Of Pigs Debacle generated.
Both from violent communists like Oswald , New Minted Anti-Communist Cuban Americans whose captured loved ones were being Brutalized ever day by Castro , The CIA over Kennedy placing the blame on them and firing their leader Dulles.
With Hosty and "squad" looking for farmers dressed in White Sheets , The real threats were drawing straws to see who got the first shot.
Hosty's confessed "Right Wing" wild goose chase & his absolute ignorance concerning the threat Kennedy's Bay Of Pigs presented on several levels explains how Hosty & his squad paved a clear path for the real assassins.
Bay of Pigs: Scattering the CIA to the winds
"How could I have been so stupid as to let them proceed?" President John Kennedy asked his advisers following the CIA's infamous fiasco at the Bay of Pigs in April 1961. Beyond the fact that the U.S. invasion of Cuba was an egregious act of aggression — violating international law and Cuba’s sovereignty — its failure was a catastrophic embarrassment for JFK, only weeks into his White House tenure.
Kennedy held CIA director Allen Dulles, and his deputy for covert operations Richard Bissell, personally responsible for deceiving him on the prospects for success of the ill-planned paramilitary assault. Indeed, as he processed the implications of the failed invasion, Kennedy vented his desire to “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.”
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What happened to the threatening note that Oswald sent to Hosty just before the assassination?
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What happened to the threatening note that Oswald sent to Hosty just before the assassination?
Are you trying to indicate that you believe that it was a threat against JFK?
It happened well before the JFK Texas trip was announced.
And Hosty says it was not a threatening note.
So, I don’t believe that Hosty would have considered that a threat against JFK.
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Moving on along the timeline to Thursday evening James Hosty writes in his book “Assignment Oswald”:
Thursday, November 21, 1963
TIME: 9:00 P.M.
Reading the Times Herald that evening, I noted a front page diagram of the parade route Kennedy would take at noon the next day through downtown Dallas. I examined it casually, only interested in where I could position myself so that I could catch a glimpse of the president. At no time during my examination of the diagram was I interested in determining whether or not any of my case subjects might be located along the motorcade route. It had been beaten into me, by both the Secret Service and the FBI, that this was not of my concern.
My only obligation for the security of the president’s trip was to report to the Secret Service anyone who had made a threat against the president or the vice president. In fact, just the day before, I had hand-delivered a report on one possible threat. I had picked up information from a source that a local Klan member had remarked that his group would have a “little reception” for Kennedy when he visited Dallas. I wrote up this information in a one-page report, including a physical description of the Klan member, and attached his photograph to the report. I walked the few blocks over to the Secret Service’s office in the U.S. Courthouse and handed the report to one of their agents. I later learned that the Secret Service briefly interviewed the man, but took no action to detain him or monitor his whereabouts on Friday during the president’s visit.
So, here we have Hosty describing what his obligations were and that he fulfilled them. Yet the title of this thread indicates that they were monitoring LHO’s every move. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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Are you trying to indicate that you believe that it was a threat against JFK?
It happened well before the JFK Texas trip was announced.
And Hosty says it was not a threatening note.
So, I don’t believe that Hosty would have considered that a threat against JFK.
Why would the FBI destroy a note delivered to them from the person they had under arrest & in custody ?
A note several witnesses say he hand delivered in very angry & agitated state ?
What reason would they scramble to destroy the note before Oswald's body had even got cold ?
Face The Nation
New book reveals how much FBI, CIA knew about Oswald before Kennedy assassination
face-the-nation
By Rebecca Kaplan
October 27, 2013 / 3:27 PM EDT / CBS News
Some of the FBI's other attempts to cover up their connections with Oswald have previously been revealed, such as the fact that Dallas-based FBI agent James Hosty had received and later destroyed a letter from Oswald protesting the FBI's questioning of Oswald's Russian-born wife, Marina. Under orders from his superior, Hosty destroyed the letter by ripping it into pieces, then flushing the pieces down the toilet at the Dallas FBI office, two days after the assassination when Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.
"The decision was made two days after the assassination to destroy this note. In truth, we'll never know exactly what was in that note, and its been described in different ways," Shenon told host Bob Schieffer. "The Warren Commission knew absolutely nothing about it.
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What happened to the threatening note that Oswald sent to Hosty just before the assassination?
Here’s some information from James Hosty’s book “Assignment Oswald”, page 31, regarding the note. Hosty has just joined the interrogation of LHO in Fritz’s office at 3:15 pm on 11/22/63:
Oswald, clearly having lost his earlier complacency, ranted on. “My wife is a Russian citizen who is here in this country legally and is protected under diplomatic laws from harassment by you or any other FBI agent. The FBI is no better than the Gestapo of Nazi Germany. If you wanted to talk to me, you should have come directly to me, not my wife. You never responded to my request.”
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What really struck me about Oswald’s outburst in Captain Fritz’s office, however, was the realization that it was Oswald who had left me an angry, unsigned note just ten days before. I had the note in my file drawer. It said, in effect: “If you want to talk to me, you should talk to me to my face. Stop harassing my wife, and stop trying to ask her about me. You have no right to harass her.” When I received this note from Nannie Lee Fenner, a former chief stenographer newly demoted to receptionist, I read it and, quite honestly, thought little about it. At the time I was juggling 35 to 40 cases, mostly on radical right-wing subversives, and had no way of knowing who might have written the note. I suspected it had come from a particular radical right-winger I had been investigating, simply because I had recently interviewed his wife.
Not only was the note delivered to the FBI office before the JFK Texas trip was announced, it was unsigned so Hosty did not know who had left it (until after the assassination), and those contents do not appear threatening to me.