Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

That JFK limo front seat is solid all the way across , no gap , so a Z193 bullet that’s not stopping in JCs thigh would  continue on INTO the seat. So unless there’s some weird physics happening with springs in the seat it’s dubious if the bullet would deflect upward enough to strike the windshield or even if it could do so without hitting the dashboard 1st. And then, where does that bullet go?

As I said, there is not enough information to do anything other than speculate.
The panel in front of JBC has a metal panel and ashtray just above where JBC's knee may have been:

so it may have struck that and bounced back onto his clothing without doing any visible damage.

I don’t see the Z193 bullet fragmenting into multiple pieces if it just went thru JFKs back and neck and only strikes into the inner left side of JCs thigh. Maybe it could have fragmented by striking springs in the seat but that’s just pure speculation and there’s no evidence of a hole in  the front seat is there?

The thigh bullet was definitely CE399.

[Zeon Mason]

As I said, there is not enough information to do anything other than speculate.
The panel in front of JBC has a metal panel and ashtray just above where JBC's knee may have been:

so it may have struck that and bounced back onto his clothing without doing any visible damage.
The thigh bullet was definitely CE399.

Well I’m still not convinced yet but maybe you will produce a drawing that has your proposed position of JCs body at Z270 and shows  how he is holding his right hand  holding the hat so that it aligns with the bullet path thru JCs back and front wounds.

If you can do that then I could live with the shooter having shot thru some tree foliage at Z193 because he might have been using the scope if it were aligned and zeroed , thus have his LOS  very narrowly focused around JFK and his peripheral vision limited such  the tree foliage “snuck up” on him just as he fired the 1st shot.

The misalignment of the scope could have been purposefully done by Oswald striking the scope against a column after the shooting, maybe to introduce some doubt should the rifle be found.

Then it might be possible that fragments that Nurse Bell saw which she thought came from JC’s thigh could be from Z193 bullet while  flakes of metal seen in the X-ray of JC’s wrist came from  another bullet. This would be contrary to the WC conclusion however.

[John Corbett]

Maybe we should have a poll taken to determine what others think on two points:

The truth is not up for a vote. There is only one truth whether a majority believe it or not. If a poll could decide these questions, we might as well drop this discussion now because a majority of people believe JFK died as a result of a conspiracy and that would make us both wrong.

In z193:


A. Is JBC's face turned relative to his chest or is it facing the same direction as his chest?
B. Is JBC's chest turned to JBC's right of the sightline from Zapruder, to the left of that sightline, or is his chest facing directly at Zapruder ?

I suggest that his face and chest are facing about the same direction or possibly a bit farther to JBC's right a few degrees.  I suggest that his chest, therefore, is facing well to JBC's right because we can see the entire left side of JBC's face and none of his right side.

I don't know what you are looking at. There is no question JBC's head is turned far more than his shoulders. His head/shoulder relation looks very similar to what we see in JFK whose head is turned sharply to his right while his shoulders are turned slightly left of Zapruder's sight line. We can see the left side of JBC's face and we'd even be able to see his ear if the overhead bar were not blocking the view. If his shoulders were turned that far, we'd be able to see the outside of his left arm. Instead we have a frontal view of his chest.

[John Corbett]

If you can do that then I could live with the shooter having shot thru some tree foliage at Z193 because he might have been using the scope if it were aligned and zeroed , thus have his LOS  very narrowly focused around JFK and his peripheral vision limited such  the tree foliage “snuck up” on him just as he fired the 1st shot.

I don't know why I didn't think of that before but of course Oswald's view of JFK would have been blocked by the tree from Z166 until Z210 which make highly unlikely Oswald would have even attempted a shot at Z193. Why would he do that when he would have a clear shot at JFK if he just waited one more second. JFK cleared the tree at Z210 which is why the WC concluded that is the earliest time he could have fired the single bullet. In reality, he squeezed the shot off about a half second after JFK came into the clear. He might have been tracking is target while JFK was passing under the tree, but it would have been very stupid to try to force the shot before he had a clear line of fire.

This same line of thinking casts aspersions on the HSCA conclusion that the single bullet was fired at Z189. I don't know what they were sniffing when they came up with that one. I'll bet they based that conclusion on the flawed acoustics evidence and not on the genuine Z-film.

[Andrew Mason]

The truth is not up for a vote. There is only one truth whether a majority believe it or not. If a poll could decide these questions, we might as well drop this discussion now because a majority of people believe JFK died as a result of a conspiracy and that would make us both wrong.

You are right that it does not matter what people believe. But it does matter what people see. All I am asking is what they see.

I don't know what you are looking at. There is no question JBC's head is turned far more than his shoulders. His head/shoulder relation looks very similar to what we see in JFK whose head is turned sharply to his right while his shoulders are turned slightly left of Zapruder's sight line. We can see the left side of JBC's face and we'd even be able to see his ear if the overhead bar were not blocking the view. If his shoulders were turned that far, we'd be able to see the outside of his left arm. Instead we have a frontal view of his chest.

If JBC's shoulders were not turned we would not see the right side of his shirt collar. A collar doesn't change with the neck. It follows the shoulders. We can't see the outside of his left arm because it is blocked by Kellerman (green lines):

[John Mytton]

JohnM

[Andrew Mason]

I don't know why I didn't think of that before but of course Oswald's view of JFK would have been blocked by the tree from Z166 until Z210 which make highly unlikely Oswald would have even attempted a shot at Z193. Why would he do that when he would have a clear shot at JFK if he just waited one more second. JFK cleared the tree at Z210 which is why the WC concluded that is the earliest time he could have fired the single bullet. In reality, he squeezed the shot off about a half second after JFK came into the clear. He might have been tracking is target while JFK was passing under the tree, but it would have been very stupid to try to force the shot before he had a clear line of fire.

This same line of thinking casts aspersions on the HSCA conclusion that the single bullet was fired at Z189. I don't know what they were sniffing when they came up with that one. I'll bet they based that conclusion on the flawed acoustics evidence and not on the genuine Z-film.

The FBI re-enactment in May 1964 was with the Oak tree after spring growth and will full leaves.  They also used the wrong car.  Even then, it showed the whole back of the car to be visible at z210.

The Secret Service film 10 days after the assassination showed the tree closer to as it was on Nov. 22/63.  It showed that JFK was quite visible at all times when passing under the tree and completely clear when he had just passed the lamp post and before he pass the Thornton sign which is between z190 and z200: