Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[John Corbett]

You made your reply before I added the actual Z193 frame to my original post but we now have that for comparison as well.

I appreciate the fair critique of my Sketchup 3D skills.  Jerry Organ does a much better job. 

But the position of the shoulder is really not that important.  It is the position of the lower and middle back that matters because the bullet is travelling on a downward slope of 18 degrees relative to the car at that point and just passes over the back of the jump seat:

I see virtually no difference between the position of the shoulders and the lower back. Both would have blocked a bullet exiting JFK's throat from going directly to the thigh.

So it would have to pass by the middle/lower back, not the shoulder or upper back, in order to strike the thigh directly.  But I do appreciate that you think the trajectory intersecting with the left side of JBC is possible.

It only looks possible in your exaggerated drawing, not in the photo of JBC's simulated position and not in the actual Z-frame.

 

It all depends on how much JBC is turned in z193.  I suggest he is turned to past the sightline to Zapruder which is 30 degrees or a 1 o'clock position but it is difficult to be exact because of the poor resolution.  It is at least a 1:30/45 degree turn.

I suggest you are seeing what you want to see. JBC's shoulder rotation in your photo looks about 30 degrees to me. Your drawing shows a turn that is well past 45 degrees. If the shoulders in the forward facing position are at the 9:00 position and the perpendicular position to that is 12:00, I would put JBC's rotation in the photo at 10:00 and 11:00 in your drawing. That's a 30 degree difference

[Andrew Mason]

I suggest you are seeing what you want to see. JBC's shoulder rotation in your photo looks about 30 degrees to me. Your drawing shows a turn that is well past 45 degrees. If the shoulders in the forward facing position are at the 9:00 position and the perpendicular position to that is 12:00, I would put JBC's rotation in the photo at 10:00 and 11:00 in your drawing. That's a 30 degree difference

??  The angle of the sightline to Zapruder is a tad more than 30 degrees as I showed in my map of DP. Connally is turned well past that sightline so it is definitely more than 30 degrees.


  If you think that is wrong, then you should do your own measurement on a scale drawing of DP.  I used the drawing in the inside cover of Trask's book: Pictures of the Pain.  It is also what I built my 3D sketchup model of DP on. 

[John Corbett]

??  The angle of the sightline to Zapruder is a tad more than 30 degrees as I showed in my map of DP. Connally is turned well past that sightline so it is definitely more than 30 degrees.


  If you think that is wrong, then you should do your own measurement on a scale drawing of DP.  I used the drawing in the inside cover of Trask's book: Pictures of the Pain.  It is also what I built my 3D sketchup model of DP on.

I have no problem with that drawing. I'll take it at face value. I disagree with your assessment of JBC's shoulder turn. If you are talking about the relationship of JBC's shoulders to the Zapruder sight line, I would say at most they are perpendicular. If anything, they look slightly less. His head is turned much more sharply to his right but certainly not his shoulders. Check the Z193 frame I added to my earlier post. I see more of JBC's jacket on his right side than on his left. That indicates to me his shoulder turn is short of perpendicular to the sight line. If he was turned beyond perpendicular, we would see more of his left side.

[Zeon Mason]

Okay I got confused about the “missing metal”from the nose of CE399 vs the “flakes” of metal that Dr. Gregory described. Some metal was removed from the nose of CE399 for testing after it was found.

Nevertheless , those “flakes” that Dr. Gregory removed came from JCs WRIST  and are claimed to be from the CE 399 bullet. So my question still is how could Andrews proposed 1st  shot at Z193 possibly CE 399 since it did NOT hit JCs wrist?

[John Corbett]

Okay I got confused about the “missing metal”from the nose of CE399 vs the “flakes” of metal that Dr. Gregory described. Some metal was removed from the nose of CE399 for testing after it was found.

Nevertheless , those “flakes” that Dr. Gregory removed came from JCs WRIST  and are claimed to be from the CE 399 bullet. So my question still is how could Andrews proposed 1st  shot at Z193 possibly CE 399 since it did NOT hit JCs wrist?

I'm not sure if Andrew thinks CE399 is the bullet that hit the thigh or the wrist but either way he has a problem. Only two bullets were recovered, CE399 at Parkland and the headshot whose fragments were found on the floor of the limo that evening by the SS. There should be another bullet in the car. I believe he suggested earlier that on the JBC bullets hit the windshield so that could be the fragmented bullet on the floor but then what happened to the headshot bullet. Also how does a bullet striking either the thigh or the wrist on a downward angle and then magically elevate to go over the top of the front seat and strike the windshield. Either way, he has some explaining to do.

I'm glad I'm a proponent of the WC scenario. We don't have to deal with these dilemmas. Early on, there were some puzzling questions but reasonable answers to those were figured out a long time ago. I don't think we have any holes to fill for which there are no reasonable possibilities.

[Zeon Mason]

That JFK limo front seat is solid all the way across , no gap , so a Z193 bullet that’s not stopping in JCs thigh would  continue on INTO the seat. So unless there’s some weird physics happening with springs in the seat it’s dubious if the bullet would deflect upward enough to strike the windshield or even if it could do so without hitting the dashboard 1st.

And then, where does that bullet go?

I don’t see the Z193 bullet fragmenting into multiple pieces if it just went thru JFKs back and neck and only strikes into the inner left side of JCs thigh. Maybe it could have fragmented by striking springs in the seat but that’s just pure speculation and there’s no evidence of a hole in  the front seat is there?

[Andrew Mason]

I have no problem with that drawing. I'll take it at face value. I disagree with your assessment of JBC's shoulder turn. If you are talking about the relationship of JBC's shoulders to the Zapruder sight line, I would say at most they are perpendicular. If anything, they look slightly less. His head is turned much more sharply to his right but certainly not his shoulders. Check the Z193 frame I added to my earlier post. I see more of JBC's jacket on his right side than on his left. That indicates to me his shoulder turn is short of perpendicular to the sight line. If he was turned beyond perpendicular, we would see more of his left side.

Maybe we should have a poll taken to determine what others think on two points:

In z193:


A. Is JBC's face turned relative to his chest or is it facing the same direction as his chest?
B. Is JBC's chest turned to JBC's right of the sightline from Zapruder, to the left of that sightline, or is his chest facing directly at Zapruder ?

I suggest that his face and chest are facing about the same direction or possibly a bit farther to JBC's right a few degrees.  I suggest that his chest, therefore, is facing well to JBC's right because we can see the entire left side of JBC's face and none of his right side.