The Brown Paper Bag

[John Mytton]

So, what exactly does a bag made from TSBD materials and found at the TSBD, which can not be placed in Frazier's car,  is too large to fit between Oswald's shoulder and the cup of his hand (as seen by Frazier) and which Frazier, only hours after the assassination, denied it was the bag he had seen actually prove?

Sorry, but I'm just not superficial enough to buy the BS you are trying to sell.

Hilarious, so now in a matter of minutes you suddenly go 180 and now believe that eyewitness testimony is the best kind of evidence?? Whatever to further your CT agenda.
You seriously can't make this up! LOLOLOL!

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Hilarious, so now in a matter of minutes you suddenly go 180 and now believe that eyewitness testimony is the best kind of evidence?? Whatever to further your CT agenda.
You seriously can't make this up! LOLOLOL!

JohnM

Hilarious, so now in a matter of minutes you suddenly go 180 and now believe that eyewitness testimony is the best kind of evidence??

Do you live in some sort of alternative reality?

Eye witness testimony is indeed the worst kind of evidence, but statements made shortly after the events are likely the best information you can get from a witness.

But instead of trying to focus on Frazier denial about the bag shown to him, why don't you try to place that bag of yours in Frazier's car?

I ask again; what exactly does a bag made from TSBD materials and found at the TSBD, which can not be placed in Frazier's car actually prove?

[John Corbett]

This is a classic example of conspiracy hobbyists making excuses to dismiss the damning evidence of Oswald's guilt.

First of all; I'm not a "conspiracy hobbyist" (whatever that means) as I couldn't care less if Oswald did it or not. My position is a simple one; show me the evidence that proves that Oswald did it. Don't tell me fanciful stories based on conjecture and questionable evidence, but show that so-called "damning evidence". I don't dismiss the evidence that's there. Never have and never will. It is what it is, but don't try to convince me that Oswald's print being on a bag is conclusive evidence of his guilt. Even less so, when the bag itself can't be authenticated!

The bag was made out of TSBD material. There is nobody who saw Oswald make that bag or even be close to the packaging area on Thursday afternoon. Frazier did not see Oswald carry a paper bag with him to Irving, or he would have said so. What Frazier did say and still says to this day is that the bag he saw wasn't big enough to conceal a broken down rifle. Now, if you want to complain about dismissing evidence, why don't you start by not dismissing what Frazier said by simply saying that he was mistaken! He showed two FBI agents to where on the backseat of his car the bag reached and they measured it. Off hand I can't remember the size (I'm getting too old for this crap!) but I do recall it matched the size the bag would have had to have been for Oswald to carry it in the way he saw him carry it.

They can't explain the evidence to make the case for Oswald's innocence so they try to explain it away

Nobody needs to make the case for Oswald's innocence. Guys like you need to prove his guilt and you can't. That's why you complain about nonsense like this. If the case against Oswald was strong and conclusive enough than it wouldn't matter if some people think Oswald is innocent! So, tell me, what evidence exactly can't be explained?

One of their favorite ploys is to attack each piece of evidence individually rather than look at the body of evidence as a whole.

What body of evidence would that be? All you have by way of physical evidence regarding the entire trip to Irving is a paper bag and even that's questionable. Everything else is assumption and idiotic BS like a police officer still seeing the shape of a rifle in a blanket after the weapon was removed. Don't make me laugh!

When you do the latter, there can be no other plausible explanation than Oswald brought the rifle to work and used it to kill JFK.

And there it is! Translation; I first believe Oswald is guilty, never mind how weak and questionable the evidence is, and than I conclude that he must have brought a rifle to work (for which you also haven't got a shred of evidence) and used it to kill JFK. Never mind that nobody has ever been able to place Oswald at the sniper's nest when the shots were fired. It is all hot air and you have fallen for it!

You ask why anybody would have to present an "alternative plausible explanation". Well, if you want to make the case for conspiracy, that would be nice.

And what if I only want to see the conclusive evidence of his guilt, without making a case for conspiracy. What then?

There simply is no plausible alternative.

Isn't there? Pray tell, how did you ever reach that conclusion? Did you see and examine all the evidence that was gathered and looked at all the stuff the investigators ignored, misrepresented, dismissed and/or suppressed? I seriously doubt it. Just like you now believe everything the nut currently in the White House tells you, you've just taken the WC's word for it. It's the appeal to authority fallacy, pure and simple!

I'm not going to bother to go into every detail of this, because there would be no point. What you have given me is the prosecution's side of the argument and it contains many false, unproven and questionable claims. For instance; there is no evidence whatsoever which shirt Oswald was wearing at the TSBD on Friday morning. Yet here you are claiming it as fact!

So, if you had to make logical inferences from the evidence presented, wouldn't you not also have to take into account the arguments of the defence? But let's say, for argument's sake, that the rifle found at the TSBD is indeed the same one shown in the BY photos and the LN claim that Oswald owned that rifle since the purchase from Klein's is true. Doesn't that mean that any fibers found on the rifle allegedly matching Oswald's shirt could have gotten on that rifle at any time? Of course it does! So, what makes you so sure that the transfer of fibers took place at the TSBD on Friday morning?

And there is the classic LN "he never measured the bag" BS. Frazier, said that Oswald was wearing the package in the cup of his hand and below the shoulder. That gives you the dimensions of the package, regardless if the actual bag was bigger or not. You do know and understand that a paper bag can be folded, right? But far more important, on the evening after the assassination, Frazier was being question by DPD officers and given a polygraph (which he passed). He was shown the actual paper bag allegedly found in the sniper's nest (no in situ photo, remember!) and he instantly denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry. No matter what they threatened with, he stuck to his story even when he was still considered to be a suspect himself. It drove Captain Fritz to the point where he wanted to hit Frazier and Lt Day started to speculate (and there is documentation for this) that Oswald might have hidden this bag (the one allegedly from the 6th floor) in an old supermarkt bag. Just how desperate could they get. Ultimately, they just buried this story but the paperwork that still remains confirms it actually happened. And that should tell you all you need to know about how desperate they were to keep that paper bag in play!

But just for grins, let's say that the bag found in the TSBD was not the same bag Frazier saw. We can make two logical inferences from that. One is that the bag Frazier saw Oswald bring into the TSBD disappeared without a trace, despite a thorough search of the TSBD. The other is that at some other time, Oswald brought a different bag into the TSBD and that bag was long enough to hold a disassemble Carcano rifle.

Whatever works for you, I guess. You do understand that by coming up with this speculation you have just shown that even you don't know any detail involving the paper bag for sure. All you are desperately coming up with is two arguments to support your preconceived assumption that Oswald was guilty. And they are in fact crappy arguments. First of all, there is no evidence at all that there ever was a thorough search of the entire TSBD. In fact, if such a search did happen, why didn't they instantly find the clipboard and Oswald's jacket in the Domino room? Secondly, Oswald arrived at the TSBD at 8 AM carrying a paper bag. Kennedy was shot around 12.30 PM, which leaves an entire morning to dispose of a paper bag, which would have been easy, as the bag you claim Oswald used was in fact made from TSBD materials. So, all Oswald would have needed to do to make the bag disappear is to tear it up and dump it in a rubbish bin at the packaging department. Nobody would have been the wiser, but guys like you believe it was perfectly normal for him to fold up the bag (without leaving fresh prints) and leaving it behind at the scene of the crime.

Are you capable of rational thought? And if so, just how much thought have you actually put into looking at this kind of stuff?

If they dreamed up the kind of silly excuses that conspiracy hobbyists do to disregard the evidence of Oswald's guilt, every criminal defendant would walk. There is no reasonable doubt of Oswald's guilt in either the murder of JFK or the murder of JDT. To anyone who is familiar [sic] with the evidence against Oswald and is capable of thinking logically there is no doubt at all.

Of course there is reasonable doubt. Not only about some of the evidence that we know of but also because of what should have been there but isn't. All this pathetic whining about far more reasonable people than you not instantly accepting your silly claim about there being no doubt is alike to a toddler whining about people not liking his favorite toy.

The bottom line is a simple one. If there really was no reasonable doubt a forum like this would not exist and people would not be discussing this case more than 60 years after the fact!

I don't know what the forum record is for most misstatements in one post is, but you have to be close to it if you haven't broken it.

Oswald's print on the bag is not by itself proof of his guilt but it is probative. Rarely is a proof beyond a reasonable doubt made on a single piece of evidence. This is what conspiracy hobbyists (yes, you are one) fail to understand. It is the accumulative effect of all the evidence that erases reasonable doubt, not just in this case but in all cases. When all the arrows are pointing in the same direction, they aren't pointing in the wrong direction. It simply isn't reasonable, plausible, or even possible that all this evidence could be pointing to Oswald's guilt if he were actually innocent.

You seem to think it is significant that nobody saw Oswald make the paper bag. How does that preclude Oswald from having made the paper bag? Did any witness see somebody else making the bag out of TSBD paper? Somebody made that paper bag and did so without being seen by a witness. The forensic evidence makes it highly probative that it was Oswald who made the bag.

The Warren Commission made the case for Oswald's guilt and they provided us with conclusive evidence of that guilt far beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that unreasonable people choose to dismiss that evidence does not establish reasonable doubt.

I did not speculate that Oswald brought a different bag into the TSBD at some unknown time. I was simply pointing out the logical conundrum you and other conspiracy hobbyists have created for themselves by disputing the bag found in the TSBD after the shooting was the same bag Frazier saw Oswald with. I find it far more likely that the two bags are one and the same but if you insist on claiming there were two different bag, then you have to accept that the bag Frazier saw disappeared without a trace and that another bag bearing Oswald's prints, long enough to hold the disassembled rifle, and containing fibers matching his rifle blanket was brought into the TSBD at some unknown time. Those are the logical choices you have. Which one do you want to go with. If you think there is a third option, please explain to us what that is.

You question why Frazier didn't see the bag when he took Oswald to Irving on Thursday evening. The bag had numerous creases in it indicating it had been folded up. It would be easy to conceal the folded up bag inside a jacket. Did you really need me to explain that to you?

The you ask "What body of evidence would that be?". I just got done listing it for you. I am not responsible for your poor reading comprehension. You can lead a horse to water...

You ask how much thought I have put into this case. I have been dealing with conspiracy hobbyists online for 35 years. I began shortly after Oliver Stone's movie came out in 1991. I know a hell of a lot more now then I did then and I have seen just about every argument imaginable over that time and have rebutted every one of them. Nothing you have raised is new to me nor are any of my answers to your questions. I've been down this road more times than I can count. What it comes down to is that conspiracy hobbyists cannot seem to solve the equation 2 + 2 = x.

You claim the evidence of Oswald's guilt is weak and questionable. It only seems that way to people who simply refuse to accept the conclusion that Oswald assassinated JFK just as surely as John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

You inferred there is some piece(s) of evidence that should be there but isn't. Tell us just what that evidence is. The body of evidence is exactly what we would expect to have with Oswald as the assassin. There is no evidence he was for or in conjunction with any other person. It is theoretically possible he could have had one or more accessories to his crime for which no evidence has ever been found, but after 62 years I find that possibility to be extremely remote. If you ever come across such compelling evidence, I'll be as happy as anyone to see it. I'm not holding my breath however.

You went on to claim evidence "ignored, misrepresented, dismissed and/or suppressed". Please tell us what that would be. Investigators looked at all the evidence and reached very logical conclusions. In some cases, the evidence was contradictory and mutually exclusive. For example we have one group of earwitnesses who told us all the shots came from the GK and another group who said all the shots came from the direction of the TSBD, Should the investigators have concluded both groups were correct or should they have looked for corroborating evidence to determine which group was right and which group was wrong?

You went on a long diatribe to dispute my claim that conspiracy hobbyists look at the evidence piecemeal instead of looking at it as a whole. In so doing, you demonstrated my claim to be true. You did exactly what I said. You refuse to look at the evidence as a body, because you know there is only one possible explanation that takes in ALL the evidence and that is a conclusion you simply refuse to accept. There are two types of people who dispute the fact that Oswald was the assassin. Those who don't know the body of evidence of his guilt and those who know the evidence and refuse to accept what that evidence tells us. The latter group (which you seem to be a member of) have as much credibility as flat earthers and moon landing deniers. Do you have reasonable doubts that the earth is a sphere or that our astronauts landed on the moon over 50 years ago and another group is now returning from having circled the moon? Either of the positions make about as much sense as denying Oswald was JFK's assassin.

[John Mytton]

I ask again; what exactly does a bag made from TSBD materials and found at the TSBD, which can not be placed in Frazier's car actually prove?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The bag with Oswald's prints that was found in the sniper's nest.....



....was an exact match for Oswald's rifle.



JohnM

[John Mytton]

So it's what Fritz and Holmes claimed he said.... not much difference there.

Let's not forget that Fritz and Holmes were testifying months after the fact when they already knew there would never be a trial. They could have said anything they liked.

Yep as usual, when you get desperate and can't address the evidence, this is your standard procedure, you claim someone lied and in this case two completely separate individuals, one from the Dallas Police and the other a Postal Inspector somehow got together and conspired another piece of evidence against Oswald.
And what's ironic is that you still claim that you aren't a conspiracy theorist.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The bag with Oswald's prints that was found in the sniper's nest.....



....was an exact match for Oswald's rifle.



JohnM

The bag with Oswald's prints that was found in the sniper's nest.....

Was it? All I have ever seen is a photo with a box drawn in and statements from some officers who said they had seen the bag and others who said they didn't see it.

So, you are assuming that the bag was indeed found in the sniper's nest, but you have nothing solid that puts it there

....was an exact match for Oswald's rifle.

Really? And, if true, what exactly does that prove? Can you place the rifle ("Oswald's rifle LOL) in the bag? If not, you've got nothing

Now, how about placing that particular bag in Frazier's car? Can you do that or are we supposed to just assume it was there?

[John Mytton]

The bag with Oswald's prints that was found in the sniper's nest.....

Was it? All I have ever seen is a photo with a box drawn in and statements from some officers who said they had seen the bag and others who said they didn't see it.

So, you are assuming that the bag was indeed found in the sniper's nest, but you have nothing solid that puts it there

Half a dozen Officers reported seeing the bag in the Sniper's nest, just because some Officers didn't notice a brown paper bag among a sea of brown boxes proves nothing. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.
Mr. BELIN. Where was this found?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. On what floor?
Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Which corner?
Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?
Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
--------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there----one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.
Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.
................
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.
Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here.
Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there - in, the southeast corner of the building folded.
Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.
Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures - one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
....
Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? Approximately 8 inches.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner?
Mr. BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. BREWER. It was there In the southeast corner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN. What other kind of a sack was found?
Mr. DAY. A homemade sack, brown paper with 3-inch tape found right in the corner, the southeast corner of the building near where the slugs were found.
Mr. McCLOY. Near where the hulls were found?
Mr. DAY. Near where the hulls. What did I say?
Mr. McCLOY. Slugs.
Mr. DAY. Hulls.
......
Mr. BELIN. Where was the sack found with relation to the pipes and that box?
Mr. DAY. Between the sack and the south wall, which would be the wall at the top of the picture as shown here.
Mr. BELIN. You mean between--you said the sack.
Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142.
Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on November 22, 1963.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?
Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.

In this photo taken on the afternoon of the 22nd shows Oswald's rifle bag with the same top end fold, same crumpled opposite end and same middle fold lines on top of some boxes in the sniper's nest.





JohnM

[Michael Capasse]

JohnM

Looks like nothing but box tops and packing paper
  ...and You never could prove what day that picture was taken