The Brown Paper Bag

[Martin Weidmann]

Oswald also denied carrying curtain rods in his long paper bag!

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.

JohnM

If he told Frazier a white lie, the bag probably didn't contain curtain rods so it's no surprise that he said that to Fritz.

Fritz keeps going on about a "long package" but fails to tell us what he actually said or showed to Oswald. So, Oswald could simply have been denying that he carried a "long" bag.

Are you so desperate that you have to read far more into this than there actually is?

[John Mytton]

Where exactly did Frazier say that Oswald lied about that so-called "rifle bag".

Even if Oswald told Frazier the package contained curtain rods when it actually didn't, it could well have been a white lie to explain the trip to Irving.
Why would Oswald tell a 19 year old co-worker that he was actually going to Irving to try and save his marriage?

It's a far cry from proving there was a rifle in that bag!

Even if Oswald told Frazier the package contained curtain rods when it actually didn't, it could well have been a white lie to explain the trip to Irving.

There was something in the long paper bag and if wasn't curtain rods then it was something else. Funnily enough a bag with Oswald's prints was found on the 6th floor and this bag just happened to fit Oswald's rifle. 

Why would Oswald tell a 19 year old co-worker that he was actually going to Irving to try and save his marriage?

I agree that Oswald was trying to save his marriage but there was no need to go on a Thursday, when if he just waited 1 day he would have a whole weekend to convince her and also give him much more time with his children. Also a big problem was that this unusual visit was in direct violation of his agreement with Ruth Paine, Ruth was already going above and beyond in housing Marina and her children.
The reason was obviously two fold if he could convince Marina he might have not killed Kennedy but after his rejection and filled with rage he assassinated Kennedy and then while in flight he killed Tippit. Oswald was a double murderer!

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

You seem to operate under the delusion that eyewitnesses perfectly remember every detail, especially mundane details that wouldn't have seemed the least bit important at the time they were observed.

You seem to operate under the delusion that eyewitnesses perfectly remember every detail

Actually, eye witness testimony is the worst kind of evidence. So, why are LNs constantly quoting from eye witness testimony?

Could it be that eye witness testimony is correct when they say something the LNs like and unreliable when they say something the LNs don't like.

In this case, I didn't bring up Frazier's testimony.... that was Mytton. I understand why he did it, though, because without it he has even less than a case against Oswald when it comes to the paper bag.

especially mundane details that wouldn't have seemed the least bit important at the time they were observed.

I agree... and even worse, eye witness testimony gets worse as time goes by as people forget and remember things wrong. So whatever Frazier said months later shouldn't be given the same consideration as what he told DPD officers on the evening after the assassination when he was shown the bag allegedly found at the 6th floor and instantly denied it was the bag he had seen only hours earlier.

[John Mytton]

If he told Frazier a white lie, the bag probably didn't contain curtain rods so it's no surprise that he said that to Fritz.

You seem to be finally getting it, but the lie was a bit more significant than a simple white lie. If it was anything else besides a rifle then Oswald would just tell it like it was, but as you agreed Oswald lied.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

There was something in the long paper bag and if wasn't curtain rods then it was something else. Funnily enough a bag with Oswald's prints was found on the 6th floor and this bag just happened to fit Oswald's rifle. 

I agree that Oswald was trying to save his marriage but there was no need to go on a Thursday, when if he just waited 1 day he would have a whole weekend to convince her and also give him much more time with his children. Also a big problem was that this unusual visit was in direct violation of his agreement with Ruth Paine, Ruth was already going above and beyond in housing Marina and her children.
The reason was obviously two fold if he could convince Marina he might have not killed Kennedy but after his rejection and filled with rage he assassinated Kennedy and then while in flight he killed Tippit. Oswald was a double murderer!

JohnM

There was something in the long paper bag and if wasn't curtain rods then it was something else.

Indeed.... so, without speculation or assumption, how can you be certain what was actually in that bag, and for that matter how long the bag really was?

Funnily enough a bag with Oswald's prints was found on the 6th floor and this bag just happened to fit Oswald's rifle. 

Too bad that you can't place it in Frazier's car and even worse, when shown to Frazier only hours after the assassination, he denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry.

I agree that Oswald was trying to save his marriage but there was no need to go on a Thursday, when if he just waited 1 day he would have a whole weekend to convince her and also give him much more time with his children. Also a big problem was that this unusual visit was in direct violation of his agreement with Ruth Paine, Ruth was already going above and beyond in housing Marina and her children.

And what makes it even remotely important what you believe about Oswald need to go to Irving on Thursday? Perhaps Oswald didn't want to wait any longer to see his children?

The reason was obviously two fold if he could convince Marina he might have not killed Kennedy but after his rejection and filled with rage he assassinated Kennedy and then while in flight he killed Tippit. Oswald was a double murderer!

The only thing that is obvious about this is that it is a self-serving argument based on a flawed opinion.

[Martin Weidmann]

You seem to be finally getting it, but the lie was a bit more significant than a simple white lie. If it was anything else besides a rifle then Oswald would just tell it like it was, but as you agreed Oswald lied.

JohnM

You seem to be finally getting it, but the lie was a bit more significant than a simple white lie.

The only reason why you feel the white lie (if Oswald told it) was more significant is that you want it to be.

If it was anything else besides a rifle then Oswald would just tell it like it was, but as you agreed Oswald lied.

BS... Nobody knows what Fritz actually said to Oswald and how Oswald replied.
All we have is what Fritz said about it. Trying to build a case on that is like building a house on quicksand.

[John Mytton]

You seem to operate under the delusion that eyewitnesses perfectly remember every detail

Actually, eye witness testimony is the worst kind of evidence.

Fair enough, then we are left with the physical evidence which is a bag with Oswald's prints which was manufactured to precisely fit Oswald's rifle.



Case closed!