Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Tom Graves]

You've missed the point of the post, thomas (a favourite strategy of yours)

Have you always been paranoiac, danny boy?

I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, evolved:

1] He started out staying on the steps before re-entering the building
2] He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes.
3] He went to the island after Gloria, then down to the railroad yard etc., taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.
4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.

Why would Lovelady be lying about his movements?

The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, or the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] must have made him do it, right?

That was the point of the post.

I know it was, danny Boy o'meara.

Why do you refer to Gloria as "bellowing"?

Didn't Buell Wesley Frazier say she was "bellowing," or "howling," or "growling," or words to that effect?

[Dan O'meara]

Have you always been paranoiac, danny boy?

The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, or the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] must have made him do it, right?

I know it was, danny Boy o'meara.

Didn't Buell Wesley Frazier say she was "bellowing," or "howling," or "growling," or words to that effect?

It's good to see you agree Lovelady lied about his movements.
Frazier refers to a "low kind of hollering".

[Tom Graves]

It's good to see you agree Lovelady lied about his movements.

Nice trolling, danny Boy o'meara.

If Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements, who made them do it?

The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?

Regaardless, do you still think the balding guy who's pivoting out of Baker's way about 25 seconds after the final shot in Darnell is William Shelley?

[Dan O'meara]

Nice trolling, danny Boy o'meara.

High praise indeed from this forum's #1 troll

If Lovelady and Shelley lied about their movements, who made them do it?

The evil, evil "sham" Warren Commission, the evil, evil CIA, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?

I don't understand the question.
Why do you think they were "made" to do it?
Why don't you explain why they lied about their movements after the assassination?
All I've done is demonstrate, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they did indeed lie about their movements after the assassination.
The only possible reason they had for doing this (as far as I can see) is to cover up the fact that immediately after the assassination both men made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker seconds after the assassination.
The question then becomes - why would they want to cover up their presence near the first floor elevators about 60 seconds after the assassination?

Regaardless, do you still think the balding guy who's pivoting out of Baker's way about 25 seconds after the final shot in Darnell is William Shelley?

I'm not like you, thomas. I don't change my opinion just to try and 'score a point'. My opinion is based on, what I regard to be, the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence.
At no point have I changed my mind about the identification of Shelley in Darnell. It fits perfectly with the identification of Lovelady on the steps.
Your ability to see bald spots and receding hairlines in such poor images is as laughable as everything else you've offered up in this thread. Almost every single piece of evidence related to this aspect of the case points away from your 'it looks like Lovelady to me' approach to the evidence. But here you are, still trollin' along 
                                                                               

[Tom Graves]

All I've done is demonstrate, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady did indeed lie about their movements after the assassination.

You must be very proud of yourself!

The only possible reason they had for lying (as far as I can see) is to cover up the fact that immediately after the assassination both men made their way toward the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker seconds after the assassination.

Why, then, don't you have the walking/running "Shelley" and "Lovelady" figures in Couch/Darnell be them?

Gotta have Calvery bellowing the news to Lovelady on the front steps 25 seconds after the final shot and with receding-hairline "Shelley" hovering nearby?

The question then becomes - why would they want to cover up their presence near the first-floor elevators about 60 seconds after the assassination?

Ah ha!

They must have been part of the conspiracy!!!

At no point have I changed my mind about the identification of Shelley in Darnell.

Why does your "Shelley" have a receding hairline like Ochus V. Campbell?

It fits perfectly with the identification of Lovelady on the steps.

Huh?

[Tom Graves]

I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination evolved:

1) He stayed on the steps until he reentered the building.
 
2) He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes. [emphasis added by T.G.]

3) He went to the island after Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps and told him JFK had been shot, then he and Shelley down to the railroad yard, taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.

4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.

Dear danny Boy o'meara,

You really need to read Lovelady's two affidavits / reports again.

Here they are:

Lovelady’s first affidavit (to the Dallas Police Department) on 11/22/63:

I work at Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm. On Friday November 22nd, 1963, I worked on the 6th floor along with Danny Arce, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens. When the President came by Bill Shelly and I were standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo. After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building. Our lunch period is from 12 to 12:45PM. All of us had left the sixth floor to see the President.

. . . . . . .

Excerpt from Lovelady’s 11/22/63 FBI report later that day:

On November 22nd, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 PM watching the presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first, he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository building. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw any suspicious individuals.

. . . . . . .

Questions for danny Boy o'meara:

What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?

Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?

Really?

-- Tom

[Dan O'meara]

...

Questions for danny Boy o'meara:

What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?

What we do is follow some basic rules of the English language, thomas.
We are trying to discern what the word "it" refers to.
In order to do this we need to discern the 'context' that the word is derived from.
To do this we look at the preceding sentences -  "After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo."

Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard.
The "it"refers to the shots that were fired.
He is basically saying - After the shots we went back into the building.
There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.
He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building.
There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building.
This is his first and most honest account of events.

Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?

Really?

-- Tom

Yes, thomas, he really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.
This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped.
That's how the English language works.
He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island.
At this stage of the lie he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.
Obviously, you will just ignore this.
It won't make you think, "oh...Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".
You were just trying to catch me out and now that has failed you will just move on from this point as if nothing were said.
That's how you operate.
You're just a troll playing a game.
It's a pity you can't see the true relevance of your own work regarding the identification of Gloria on the steps.

Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.

1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.

This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.
How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?

[Tom Graves]

Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard. The "it" in "when it was over" refers to the shots that were fired. He is basically saying, "After the shots we went back into the building." There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.

He may have left 2 to 5 minutes out.

He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building. There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building. This is his first and most honest account of events.

Okay.

If Lovelady's later testimonies and interviews were lies, what's your theory as to why he (and Shelley) lied about their movements after the final shot?

1) Because they were forced to by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil Warren Commission, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] in order to somehow prove that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles came down to the first floor a lot later than they remembered? Something like that?

2) Because they were part of the conspiracy?

3) Because [fill in the blank]?

4) "Dunno"

He really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.

This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped. That's how the English language works.

From the TSBD steps, the "old, little island" is towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had "stopped."

So, he's telling the truth there.

And by "awhile" he probably meant 5 minutes max.

He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island. At this stage of the lie, he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.

Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".

Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.

1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.

This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.

How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?

Other than the HSCA interview "20-25 minutes" bit (by which he may have meant the period of time thirty minutes after the final shot in the Martin and Hughes clips in which he's smoking on the front steps, evidently having gone back outside for a nicotine "hit" once they started letting employees back in -- and after Martin and Hughes stop filming that scene, he probably went back inside), we don't know if Lovelady's statements and testimonies trend towards falsity, or truth.

But the fact that your receding-hairline "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell is probably Ochus V. Campbell, and the fact that in Couch-Darnell we can see a slender, suit-wearing "Shelley" figure and a distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!!!) "Lovelady" figure walking/running in the direction of the railway yard down Elm Street Extension 25 seconds after the final shot suggests the latter.