Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Zeon Mason]

Actually , it was not until about 70 secs post shots that Baker and Truly   encounter the 2 mystery white men “loitering” around the rear elevators.

So like Storing ? Why did not Truly  ID these men to Baker as TSBD employees?

Imo, if  Truly did not recognize 2 men at the rear elevators as TSBD employees then surely he would have questioned their presence there would he not? 

This points therefore to those 2 men being Lovelady and Shelley and it was at this 70 sec post shots encounter when Truly told Lovelady to guard  the elevators while Truly  and Baker prepared to start ascending the staircases.

But then there is Luke Mooney arriving next,  so Mooney should have encountered Lovelady guarding the elevators should he not ?

And Luke Mooney had an encounter with Victoria Adams at the rear elevator on the 2nd floor which  was stuck because the power was off and he couldn’t operate the elevator. So Mooney starts ascending the stairs and lo and behold he counters 2 plainclothes men coming down the stairs!

Meanwhile, where the heck are Shelley and Lovelady if they were supposed to be guarding the elevators when Mooney gets to the rear elevator on the 2nd floor?

I think the solution must be that Mooney went up to the 2nd floor using the FRONT staircase at the front lobby entrance, thus he did not make  contact with Shelley or Lovelady if they were still guarding the rear elevators on the 1st floor.

I think that Victoria Adams after standing outside in front of TSBD for about 2 minutes decided to go back into TSBD and return to the 4th floor office. Not sure which way she went though, however which ever way, she runs into Mooney on the 2nd floor at the rear elevators.

[Tom Graves]

I think the Martin image is somehow distorted.

The Martin image isn't distorted, Lovelady's face is distorted because he's exhaling cigarette smoke in-a-smoke-circle-creating or a "I wanna see the little puffs leave my mouth" kinda way.

[Royell Storing]

Actually , it was not until about 70 secs post shots that Baker and Truly   encounter the 2 mystery white men “loitering” around the rear elevators.

So like Storing ? Why did not Truly  ID these men to Baker as TSBD employees?

Imo, if  Truly did not recognize 2 men at the rear elevators as TSBD employees then surely he would have questioned their presence there would he not? 

This points therefore to those 2 men being Lovelady and Shelley and it was at this 70 sec post shots encounter when Truly told Lovelady to guard  the elevators while Truly  and Baker prepared to start ascending the staircases.

But then there is Luke Mooney arriving next,  so Mooney should have encountered Lovelady guarding the elevators should he not ?

And Luke Mooney had an encounter with Victoria Adams at the rear elevator on the 2nd floor which  was stuck because the power was off and he couldn’t operate the elevator. So Mooney starts ascending the stairs and lo and behold he counters 2 plainclothes men coming down the stairs!

Meanwhile, where the heck are Shelley and Lovelady if they were supposed to be guarding the elevators when Mooney gets to the rear elevator on the 2nd floor?

I think the solution must be that Mooney went up to the 2nd floor using the FRONT staircase at the front lobby entrance, thus he did not make  contact with Shelley or Lovelady if they were still guarding the rear elevators on the 1st floor.

I think that Victoria Adams after standing outside in front of TSBD for about 2 minutes decided to go back into TSBD and return to the 4th floor office. Not sure which way she went though, however which ever way, she runs into Mooney on the 2nd floor at the rear elevators.

   I can buy into some of the earlier points you make, but there is Nothing ID'ing one of the women that Officer Mooney encountered as being Vicky Adams. You need to be careful about cavalierly applying ID's to people. If it's your opinion please state such. People come here looking for Facts about the JFK Assassination.
   Why would Officer Mooney enter the 1st floor right next to the freight elevators and Not use those same elevators to go up? Why would he walk clear across the 1st floor? Mooney clearly testified that the elevator power went Out AFTER he was going up with the 2 women. 

[Royell Storing]

He thought the shots had come from the roof. If he and Truly entered the front door about 30 seconds after the final shot, he probably figured those two guys (who weren't together and one of whom was sitting) couldn't have been on the roof and gotten down to the first floor so quickly.

   "He probably...?" You ever see a cop enter a house? They "clear" every room, every stranger they encounter. 1 story house, 5 story house, doesn't matter. Protocol.
    Officer Baker should have quickly patted Oswald down. Maybe Oswald was carrying that Phony ID? Finding that Phony Id on Oswald would have saved Tippit's life.

[Tom Graves]

   "He probably...?" You ever see a cop enter a house? They "clear" every room, every stranger they encounter. 1 story house, 5 story house, doesn't matter. Protocol.
    Officer Baker should have quickly patted Oswald down. Maybe Oswald was carrying that Phony ID? Finding that Phony Id on Oswald would have saved Tippit's life.

Okay, Inspector Clouseau.

You seem to forget, however, that the seven-story TSBD was a large building, that Baker's first thought was that the shots had come from the roof, that when he and Truly entered the building only about thirty seconds after the final shot, he was the only policeman in it, and that it would have taken him several minutes to get to the roof if he'd "cleared" every nook and cranny on his way up.

D'oh!

[Zeon Mason]

For some reason it just occurred to me that the FBI Hosty note about Oswald being “out front watching the P. Parade” could mean that Oswald had said he was out in the front LOBBY looking out at the parade thru those big clear glass walls.

This would be consistent with an FBI account of Carolyn Arnold having stated she had seen Oswald in the front entrance LOBBY approx 12:25 when she looked back towards the front doors of TSBD. ( she saw him through the glass wall).

This would also be consistent  with Oswald on film saying he was IN the building when asked where he was at the time of the shooting.

So now it all works out quite well that Oswald had been sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom eating lunch when Carolyn Arnold saw him there at 12:15.

Then after Carolyn left to go outside with her friend Virgie Rachley , Oswald decided he should return to the Domino room and finish his lunch there ( probably thinking Carolyn might say something to Mrs Reid and he would get in trouble if he stayed in the 2nd floor lunchroom.)

So at about 12:23 Harold Norman and James Jarman , returned  to the rear door of TSBD at the loading dock and they bypassed the Domino room , and they were seen by Oswald going to  the rear elevators. N&J , however, did not see Oswald because they were looking 180 degrees the opposite direction at the elevator shaft.

So Oswald saw and probably heard something said by Norman or Jarmin about the JFK limo about to arrive, which prompted Oswald to leave the Domino room and go to the front lobby and look “out at the parade” at around 12:25. He was then seen standing by the plate glass wall, in the lobby, by Carolyn Arnold looking back at the TSBD entrance.

Now, after the  shots fired and Oswald saw Baker running towards the front entrance, Oswald crossed the lobby and went up the front staircase, and then down the outer hallway of 2nd floor and into the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Why did Oswajd do that? Probably  because that was where he had left his jacket and maybe had his keys in the jacket also. He needed those before he could go outside to see what the commotion was about.

So this times out remarkably well that Oswald had just entered the 2nd floor lunchroom at about 80-85 secs by using the outer hallway.

And the opening and closing of the 2nd inner door by  Oswald when he went thru vestibule to enter the lunchroom, caused the light streaming thru that 2x2’ window of the outer door, to flicker which caught the eye of Baker as he arrived to the 2nd floor landing. This prompted Bsjer to shift over to look thru the window and that’s when he saw Oswald walking away.

It all works out now that Oswald remained IN the TSBD lobby ( and he was unseen by Piper in the lobby because there was solid brick wall that blocked LOS to Oswald.from Pipers position at the south side TSBD window where Piper was looking out.

This would explain how Lovelady and Shelley would not have seen Oswald whether they arrived to the rear elevators either by the west side door of TSBD or if they came thru the front lobby 15-20 secs ahead of Truly and Baker.

[Royell Storing]

Okay, Inspector Clouseau.

You seem to forget, however, that the seven-story TSBD was a large building, that Baker's first thought was that the shots had come from the roof, that when he and Truly entered the building only about thirty seconds after the final shot, he was the only policeman in it, and that it would have taken him several minutes to get to the roof if he'd "cleared" every nook and cranny on his way up.

D'oh!

    Officer Baker's conduct inside the TSBD was inconsistent to put it mildly. But there's also his preamble. Baker claims that pigeons led him to believe that there was an active shooter atop/inside the TSBD, yet he does Not ride his motorcycle right up to the front steps. He does Not choose the fastest path to enter a building containing an active shooter. Baker instead rides his motorcycle around the corner, parks his bike at the curb, and then runs up Elm St and then across the Elm St Ext. This "course of action" in the face of an active shooter just does not fit this situation. And then there's Officer Baker, prior to his WC Q/A, going through 3 dress rehearsals with the WC Attorney regarding the tick-tock of his entering the TSBD. That challenges the smell test.