Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Royell Storing]

I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.

   How about? (1) Telling us when Lovelady put on that sweatshirt, (2) Telling us when Lovelady changed back into his button-up shirt which we see him wearing when he is sitting down as Oswald is marched by him, Or (3) Set the record straight and say this is Not Lovelady. 

[Tom Graves]

How about? (1) Telling us when Lovelady put on that sweatshirt, (2) Telling us when Lovelady changed back into his button-up shirt which we see him wearing when he is sitting down as Oswald is marched by him, Or (3) Set the record straight and say this is Not Lovelady.

Dear Comrade Storing,

It was you, not I, who said the guy in the clip is wearing a sweatshirt.

D'oh!

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

Dear Comrade Storing,

It was you, not I, who said the guy in the clip is wearing a sweatshirt.

D'oh!

-- Tom

    If you really want to solve this case, you need to admit when clearer images reveal your previous claim(s) to have been incorrect. Also, there are people on this Forum looking for information on the JFK Assassination. You should not permit them to be misled. This is the way that Urban Legends get passed around and then eventually accepted as being fact.     

[Tom Graves]

If you really want to solve this case, you need to admit when clearer images reveal your previous claim(s) to have been incorrect.

Dear Comrade Storing,

Unlike your hero, Donald John Trump, I'm not perfect.

Which of my previous claims are you referring to?

When is the last time you admitted to being wrong about something JFKA-related?

There are people on this forum looking for information on the JFK Assassination.

Good!

You should not permit them to be misled.

Do you think I'm misleading them?

If so, how?

This is the way urban legends get passed around, and then eventually accepted as being fact.

 

You mean like "Harvey, Lee, Hank, and Hal and the Four Marguerites," and "The Evil, Evil CIA Killed JFK"?

[Lance Payette]

I feel sure I’ve been exposed as a Calvery Luddite since I last appeared, but I have placed Tom and Dan on Eternal Ignore and will not be seeing or responding to their work here or elsewhere, ever. I do have my limits and value my sanity.

However, since I have turned this Calvery Thing into the equivalent of an appellate brief anyway, I did a bit more lawyerly thinking. I’m not dogmatic about where this points, but I tend to think it tilts in favor of Westbrook’s version. You are welcome to disagree.

Just for fun, I read through all of the March 1964 TSBD employee statements in Warren Commission Exhibit 1381.

We have two sets of witnesses who said they were together. They are:

GROUP 1: Westbrook, Calvery, Hicks, Reed.

GROUP 2: Jacob, Holt, Simmons-Nelson.

Where did they say they were when the shots were fired?

GROUP 1

Westbrook: “about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Calvery: “about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Hicks: “halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass”
Reed: “about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass”

GROUP 2

Jacob: “west of the building approximately fifty yards”
Holt: “west of the building approximately fifty yards”
Simmons-Nelson: “about midway between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass on Elm Street”

Note the oddity: Simmons-Nelson uses the same terminology as those in Group 1.

Now we add a new name: Johnson. Why do we add her? Because she says she left the TSBD with Jacob and Holt. The three of them walked to the “corner of Elm and Houston,” where they were joined by Richey, Arnold and Dragoo. Johnson was “standing at this point” when the shots were fired.

Richey says she was with Johnson, Arnold, Dragoo, Baker and Campbell “in the roadway directly south of the” TSBD.

Arnold says she was with Johnson, Richey, Dragoo, Baker and Campbell “in front of” the TSBD.

Dragoo says she was with Johnson, Richey, Arnold and Baker and that she “walked just across the street in front of the building entrance.”

Campbell recalled being with Truly, Richey, Arnold and Reid “next to the curb on Elm Street adjacent to the street signal light.”

We thus have Jacob and Holt leaving the TSBD with Johnson and walking to the corner of Elm and Houston. When they are joined by Richey, Arnold and Dragoo, all but Jacob and Holt apparently remain close to the TSBD entrance. No one mentions leaving the TSBD with Simmons-Nelson; it sounds as though she joined Jacob and Holt as they went farther down Elm.

Did they say anything about the shots?

GROUP 1

Westbrook: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.
Calvery: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.
Hicks: The first shot was almost directly in front of her.

Group 2

Nothing at all was said by Jacob, Holt or Nelson-Simmons.

Does this not seem odd?

What did they do after the shots?

Group 1

All returned to their office inside the TSBD.

Group 2

Jacob and Holt were blocked from returning into the TSBD, as were Johnson and Dragoo.

Simmons-Nelson, Richey and Arnold never returned to the TSBD.

There is clearly something "different" about Group 1.

I don’t want to be dogmatic, but it sounds to me as though (1) Group 1 was a distinct group somewhat farther down Elm than the others (the terminology “halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass” versus “west of the building approximately fifty yards"), (2) Group 1 noticed the first shot occurring directly in front of them, whereas no one in Group 2 said anything about the shots, and (3) only Group 1 was able to renter the TSBD. This all seems consistent with Westbrook’s recollection.

As far as Chubby Crying Woman goes, I’m now thinking she probably is Holt and that is probably Jacob and Simmons-Nelson with her. That clip is well along in the Darnell film, so I’m not sure that it tells us anything about Westbrook’s recollection.

Make of it what you will.

[Dan O'meara]

Last one.

This is nothing more than a point of curiosity for a very bored, housebound me. Yes, if I dive into an issue I do approach it like an appellate lawyer, not a jump-to-my-preferred-conclusion, agenda-driven, spittle-spewing fanatic like Some People I Could Mention.

Tom may well be correct in his identification. I'm not convinced, but he may be. He seems driven by an agenda to make Shelley and Lovelady into liars and the FBI and WC into evidence-fabricating fiends, which I find improbable. If Tartan Skirted Woman can be established as Calvery without all of the supposed (and, I believe, insane) "ramifications" - well, that's fine with me.

Westbrook's 50-year-old recollections are not about some obscure detail. They are about where she was standing, who she was with, and what SHE HERSELF looked like. She is looking at photos, front and back, and saying "That's me."

The person she thinks is her just happens to be standing in the photos with someone who looks a great deal like Calvery - who is precisely whom she recalls standing with her.

She is adamant about all this. She was honest enough to say she wasn't sure who the dark-haired woman next to Calvery is. In those circumstances, I'm not prepared to say she is wrong and Tom is right. If she is wrong, she's very, astoundingly wrong.

She's alive. Did anyone ever show her Duncan's clip? Maybe she'd say, "I'm not sure who those three are, but that's still me in the blue scarf with Gloria in the other photos." Or maybe she'd say, "Yeah, that's us. The dark woman is ______." Or maybe she'd still say, "I don't know who the dark woman is."

I have no idea what point Dan is making. I think Shelley was on the TSBD landing, where he said he was, then quickly left and headed down the Elm extension with Lovelady. I think he either left the steps and crossed the street before encountering Calvery, as he said the day of the JFKA, or left in response to seeing and hearing her as he suggested at the WC. If there is some great contradiction here, I guess I don't see it. The point of his affidavit was what he saw and heard at the time of the assassination, not a detailed itinerary of all his subsequent movements.

If Dan is still in fakery mode, suggesting that isn't Shelley and Lovelady in Couch, he's a lost cause even for a CTer.

Dan is clearly not familiar with the totality of Andrej Stancak's work, which is extensive and impressive even if he is a Prayer Man enthusiast. (Never mind, of course, that this is precisely where Shelley testified he was standing. Never mind, either, that numerous people have pointed out for years that Dan's "Shelley" simply doesn't have Shelley's build.) I don't know where Dan got the photo he has labelled Shelley and attributed to Andrej, but Shelley's suit and tie seem reasonably clear in Andrej's April 10, 2023 piece "The timing of Wiegman film and Altgens6 photograph questions the continuity of frames in Zapruder film," https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2023/04/10/the-timing-of-wiegman-film-and-altgens6-photograph-questions-the-continuity-of-frames-in-zapruder-film/.

Yes, I have seen all the photos that Westbrook herself donated to the Sixth Floor Museum. I mentioned them above. Yes, I would say the dark woman in the trio is not Hicks or Reed. I don't see that this settles anything. Send the clip or photo to Westbrook - her address is public - and see what she says.

Well, it's been fun. Despite its amusement value, whatever issues are being hashed out here are truly not that big of a deal to me because I believe the entire underlying premise of LYING! FABRICATING! and INTIMIDATING!, all to DEFEAT OSWALD'S IRONCLAD ALIBI!, is simply insane.

Dang me, I need to paste inside my hat the old aphorism about wrestling with a pig ...

Carry on, oinkers.

I do approach it like an appellate lawyer, not a jump-to-my-preferred-conclusion, agenda-driven, spittle-spewing fanatic

This is a falsehood.
You are a dyed-in-the-wool, foaming-at-the-mouth, Lone Nutter zealot who treats the evidence with utter contempt.

The person she thinks is her just happens to be standing in the photos with someone who looks a great deal like Calvery - who is precisely whom she recalls standing with her.

This is a falsehood.
The woman Westbrook recalls standing next to her DOES NOT look "a great deal like Calvery".


1] Westbrook's 'Gloria' had blonde hair. The real Gloria had flame red hair:



2] Gloria towered over her colleagues:



She was even taller than Westbrook:



Westbrook's 'Gloria' is possibly the shortest of the three:



3] In every extant picture of Gloria I've ever seen, including her wedding day and year book picture, she is wearing glasses:



Obviously, Gloria needed glasses to see the world around her.
Westbrook's 'Gloria' isn't wearing glasses.

Conclusive proof that Westbrook misidentified Gloria in the Z-film.

In every single account we can find, including Westbrook's, the four work colleagues are together. Therefore, Westbrook's certain misidentification of Gloria in the Z-film means she has incorrectly identified herself in the Z-film. Remember, the only thing she actually remembered was the scarf she thought she was wearing that day. A scarf she lost long ago. A scarf she didn't even mention the colour of.

I have no idea what point Dan is making. I think Shelley was on the TSBD landing, where he said he was, then quickly left and headed down the Elm extension with Lovelady. I think he either left the steps and crossed the street before encountering Calvery, as he said the day of the JFKA, or left in response to seeing and hearing her as he suggested at the WC. If there is some great contradiction here, I guess I don't see it.

So, Lance doesn't see the contradiction?

He doesn't see the contradiction between:

1] Shelley running across the street and meeting Gloria on the 'divider'
                  and
2] Shelley waiting on the steps until Gloria came running up

In his mind these are somehow the same thing.
Hmmm....
The reality is that these are completely contradictory accounts of his movements.
In his WC account, Shelley is unequivocal that he remained on the steps until Gloria arrived.
Shelley is asked to confirm this sequence of events and he then confirms that it wasn't until AFTER Gloria had come to the steps that he then went across the street.
This sequence of events is incredibly inconvenient for Lance, and anyone who believes in the Shelley/Lovelady-on-Elm identification, as it makes it physically impossible for this to happen in the 25 seconds allotted.
Lance knows this. Four times I've asked him to provide a credible timeline explaining this conundrum and four times he has slithered out of it.
He has been corrected already for trying to peddle the...falsehood that Shelley never really made it clear in his WC testimony that he waited on the steps until Gloria came up.
The truth is that Shelley is unequivocal about this point and in the clearest terms. There is no room for misunderstanding.
Just as both Shelley and Lovelady make it clear they waited there for 3 minutes before Gloria arrived.
Even so, I have no doubt that Lance will carry on spouting his impossible nonsense because he has such contempt for the overwhelming evidence contradicting his identification.

I don't know where Dan got the photo he has labelled Shelley and attributed to Andrej, but Shelley's suit and tie seem reasonably clear in Andrej's April 10, 2023 piece "The timing of Wiegman film and Altgens6 photograph questions the continuity of frames in Zapruder film,"

You don't know where I got the Shelley image from?
Really, Lance?
Because I got it from the site you posted leading to Andrej's work - https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/.
On this page, Andrej has this image:



I have simply blown up the centre image showing that his identification of Shelley is based on nothing more than an indistinct smudge:



Andrej gives no reason whatsoever for why he has identified this smudge as Shelley in the Darnell clip.
You'd know this if you had the first clue about his work.
And the image you are referring to, that you believe shows Shelley's suit and tie, comes from Weigman and is taken BEFORE the shots.
BEFORE Shelley runs across the street where he meets Gloria coming the other way. The Darnell 'smudge' is taken AFTER the shots and AFTER Shelley has run across the street. There is no reason whatsoever to label this smudge as Shelley.
Especially as we can see Shelley returning to the steps in Darnell.

Yes, I would say the dark woman in the trio is not Hicks or Reed. I don't see that this settles anything

 
Brilliant stuff.
At long last you are correct...a stopped clock and all that.
Well done. The non-Caucasian woman is not Hicks or Reed.
She is, as Tom has been telling you over and over again, Stella Jacobs.
Stella is known to have been with her colleagues, Sharon Simmons and Jeannie Holt, watching the motorcade.
It is further proof Westbrook got it seriously wrong (as if any more were needed).
Does that settle it for you?
(I doubt it  )

[Tom Graves]

I have placed Tom on Eternal Ignore and will not be seeing or responding to his work here or elsewhere, ever.

Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,

Your placing me on "ignore" just makes you even more what I already knew you are -- a Trump-loving, KGB-dismissing ignoramus.

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

I've often suspected that the guy in the Alyea film who's standing in the background and who turns his head towards the window and back is Lovelady, standing on a pallet or something.

   Bump regarding previous claim(s).