Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Lance Payette]

I note that the woman in the light scarf in Duncan's video, who would presumably be Westbrook, is fairly attractive and appears to have a slight gap in her front teeth. This would match all photos I have seen of Westbrook, including those from that era. She also appears to be just about exactly the right height, judging from the color photos that Westbrook herself provided to the Sixth Floor Museum. I'm not dogmatic about this because I have no reason to be, but this is an awful lot of coincidences and it's increasingly difficult for me to accept that Tartan Skirted Woman is Calvery. (No, Tom, you don't need to explain to me how you cracked the Calvery code because I've read it all and, while I don't insist you are wrong, I don't think you're going to convince me you're right. Westbrook seems to still be alive - if she changes her story, I'll certainly listen.)

Tom thinks I'm accusing him of "conspiring" with Sandy Larsen? What does that mean? Call it what you will, but I have reviewed umpteen threads and posts on this issue at the Ed Forum, and Tom and Sandy were practically orgasmic in their mutual admiration over what "they" had discovered. It's all what "we" have done on this issue. This from Tom in 2018:

"All I can say is that I consider Sandy to be a truly great American who has done very, very good work on many valuable subjects (excluding, of course, the Arcane Art known as 'The H&L And The Two Marguerites Theory'), and I don't know what I'd do, on this wonderful forum, without him!"

 

[Lance Payette]

   If you believe that Calvery is pictured below, then Shelley's, "Running BACK UP There," does Not apply to the TSBD. These 3 women were coming Down from being UP on the knoll.

You lost me there.

In his affidavit the day of the JFKA, Shelley said he crossed the street "to the corner of the park" and encountered Calvery. At the WC he said he and Lovelady were on the steps (with him on the landing) when "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said 'The President has been shot' and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different. (Well, yes, he is saying they heard Calvery before they left the steps, but he's not necessarily saying she was on the steps before they left.)

Yes, the women in Duncan's video are coming down toward the TSBD from where they had been watching the motorcade. I interpret Shelley's "back up there crying" to mean in the direction of the TSBD, where he and Lovelady could see and hear her. I see no basis for thinking Shelley is saying Calvery ran back toward the knoll.

[Tom Graves]

I note that the woman in the light scarf in Duncan's video, who would presumably be Westbrook, is fairly attractive and appears to have a slight gap in her front teeth. This would match all photos I have seen of Westbrook, including those from that era. She also appears to be just about exactly the right height, judging from the color photos that Westbrook herself provided to the Sixth Floor Museum. I'm not dogmatic about this because I have no reason to be, but this is an awful lot of coincidences and it's increasingly difficult for me to accept that Tartan Skirted Woman is Calvery. (No, Tom, you don't need to explain to me how you cracked the Calvery code because I've read it all and, while I don't insist you are wrong, I don't think you're going to convince me you're right. Westbrook seems to still be alive - if she changes her story, I'll certainly listen.)

Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,

Why trust Westbrook's memory fifty-four years after-the-fact when she (undoubtedly traumatized at-the-time by seeing JFK's head get blown off about fifty feet from her) is trying to identify her good friend, "Gloria Calvert" (sic) from above and far behind (per the camera's elevation and distance from the subject) in a film frame in which she and all three of her three South-West Publishing Company colleagues were wearing headscarves (which she obviously doesn't remember) and in which she mistook strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt for her "good friend, red-haired Gloria Calvert" (sic) to a smiling-and-nodding Stephen Fagin and a national audience?

Tom thinks I'm accusing him of "conspiring" with Sandy Larsen? What does that mean? Call it what you will, but I have reviewed umpteen threads and posts on this issue at the Ed Forum, and Tom and Sandy were practically orgasmic in their mutual admiration over what "they" had discovered. It's all what "we" have done on this issue. This from Tom in 2018:

"All I can say is that I consider Sandy to be a truly great American who has done very, very good work on many valuable subjects (excluding, of course, the Arcane Art known as 'The H&L And The Two Marguerites Theory'), and I don't know what I'd do, on this wonderful forum, without him!" [emphasis added by T.G. on 10/2/25]

Dear Fancy Prancer Rants,

Sandy Larsen (a fervid believer in the Harvey and Lee and Harry and Hal and the Four Marguerites Cult) and I were giving each other "moral support" for having correctly solved the "Was Gloria Calvery close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get to them within 30 seconds (or so) of the final shot and bellow out to Buell Wesley Frazier, Sarah Stanton, Prayer Man / Prayer Woman and others there that JFK had been shot (and thereby prove that Shelley and Frazier had lied about what they had done and where they had gone immediately after the assassination since they can be seen walking/running towards the railway yard/parking lot in Couch-Darnell?" puzzle.

And I gotta tell ya -- it was a real HOOT doing so!


PS Please let us know when you find those three young gals (Jacob, Holt, and Simmons) standing together near the curb anywhere on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade.

[Dan O'meara]

FWIW, Pat Speer, who is both a meticulous researcher and a staunch CTer, absolutely beats to death the issues being discussed on this thread (whatever the hell they are) at his Chapter 4, https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald. Once you reach the discussion of Shelley-Lovelady-Calvary-Adams-Baker-Truly, it goes on and on and on.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them (including the Kamp enhancement that Dan thinks was faked).

Pat has his own timeline as to what occurred. One point he emphasizes is something that had also occurred to me because I have very dramatically experienced it myself – i.e., the phenomenon of time dilation in extraordinary events, where something that couldn’t physically have taken more than 10 seconds seems like minutes.

In any event, Pat seems to arrive at a CT position without the claims of fakery, lying and witness intimidation being suggested by Dan. I would guess that Pat’s analysis is much closer to being correct, although he gives Adams more credence than I would and doesn’t seem aware that she later claimed the references to Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony (which seemingly makes no sense in any CT context).

I might also add: The “Shelley” labeled in red in the one photo posted early in this thread is absolutely not Shelley. Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up. https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/. His reconstruction appears below (Shelley in coat and tie behind guy with arm raised).

I am chiming in only because (1) Pat Speer’s work makes clear that a far better CT-oriented researcher than Dan can reach very different (and far more plausible) conclusions, and (2) Pat has the following images and diagram that make very clear where Shelley and Lovelady reentered. It is the little open door just to the left of the overhang where cars were parked. In the final diagram, the blue line is the route of Shelley and Lovelady, the green line is Adams and Styles, the red star is where Adams supposedly encountered them, and the yellow star is the phone that Pat Speer thinks Shelley may have used.

By now I should be used to dealing with the lunacy of a zealot Nutter like Lance, but it still catches me off guard.
The lengths he goes to in order to 'score a point' are mind-blowing. Out goes truth, rationality and common sense. As long as he can find a counter-position he doesn't care how many times he shoots himself in the foot.

Pat accepts the reality of Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film as determined by Dunckel and Kamp and acknowledges both of them
The "reality" of Lovelady and Shelley in the Couch film.
Elsewhere, Lance has referred to this identification as "conclusive" and "definitive".
As far as he is concerned Shelley is shown on the Elm St ext. in Couch.
I disagree and identify Shelley near the bottom of the front steps.
In his zeal to score a point, Lance then completely contradicts his identification of Shelley on the Elm St ext.

Prayer Man enthusiast Andrej Stancak has impressively analyzed every film and photo showing the TSBD steps, and he clearly and convincingly identifies Shelley on the top step (landing) as Calvary is going up.

Now he is arguing that Shelley on the front steps!!
Truly unbelievable 
And let's have a quick look at how convincing and clear Stancak's 'Shelley' is:



Stancak gives no reason for identifying this blurred smudge as Shelley.
None.
This is what Lance views as clear and convincing. This is his standard.

BTW, anyone interested in the JFK case should visit Pat Speer's website. It is an invaluable source of information created by one of the best JFKA researchers.
The chapter "Pinning The Tale On The Oswald" is a devastating critique of the Warren Commission, holding it up for all to see as the fraud, farce and sham it really was. I can only wonder what a foaming-at-the-mouth Nutter like Lance makes of his arguments.

[Dan O'meara]

This is just an attempt at clarification. I realize that Tom’s (and the late Sandy Larsen’s) identification of Tartan Skirted Woman as Gloria Calvery is extremely important to him for some reason. What I don’t quite understand is why. (Assuming we can trust Gloria’s grave marker, her name was Calvery and not Calvary as it is often misspelled.)

To be clear, I’m not insisting Tartan Skirted Woman isn’t Calvery. I’m just puzzled.

Back in the day, a well-respected researcher named Linda Giovanna Zambanini debated the identification of Calvery with Tom and Sandy, and serious researchers such as Robin Unger, Bart Kamp and others were aligned with Linda in believing that Chubby Crying Woman in the image below was in fact Calvery. It seemed to me that Linda and her supporters made a good case, using old photos, that Chubby Crying Woman looks a lot more like Calvery than Holt (as Tom claims). There was certainly some facial similarity between Calvery and Holt.

Now, however, I see that Linda has “tentatively” joined the Tartan Skirted Woman brigade at the Calvery memorial site. She has an arrow pointing to Tartan Skirted Woman but with a question mark: “Gloria Calvery?”

We will concede that it is Tartan Skirted Woman going up the steps with All White Woman, but my question is, “Why must this be Calvery? What’s the great significance?”

For Tartan Skirted Woman to be Calvery, the following would have to be true:

1. Westbrook’s recollection in 2016 as to where she was standing would have to be dead wrong.

2. Westbrook’s identification of Calvery in the photos would have to be dead wrong, even though “her” Calvery is dressed completely differently from Tartan Skirted Woman.

3. Westbrook’s identification of herself would have to be dead wrong. According to Tom, the woman Westbrook thinks is herself, from both the front and back in photos, is actually Simmons-Nelson. One of the women standing with Tartan Skirted Woman is presumably Tom’s Westbrook, but she didn’t recognize herself in 2016?

Westbrook’s recollection was so strong that she confidently disagreed with the supposed identification of Calvery by the latter’s own son.

Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.

Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event.

What would be the big deal if Shelley and Lovelady actually encountered Calvery in the vicinity but not on the steps as depicted in the frames with Tartan Skirted Woman and All White Woman? What’s the big deal?

Back in the day, at least two people (including Robert Prudhomme) questioned what on earth the significance of all this is supposed to be. Tom answered something about the FBI fabricating multiple statements in an effort to alter when Shelley and Lovelady left the steps and the identification of Calvery being the key to it all. Robert pointed out that this seemed to be an awfully “elaborate” scheme just for that purpose. Later, Sandy responded to Bart Kamp, “Gloria Calvery is an integral part of the Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, Baker 2nd-floor-fabrication nexus that was used to cover up Oswald's alibi.”

Is that the big deal with Tartan Skirted Woman being Calvery – she’s the key to a massive FBI/WC hoax? If that’s it, I don’t say she isn’t Calvery but am certainly much less inclined to think she is.

Shelley’s statement the day of the JFKA has him encountering Calvery across the street; at the WC, he has her “running back up there,” apparently meaning the steps. Lovelady told the WC that Calvery came “running up to us.” Molina told the WC he was on the steps and saw Truly go in but did not encounter Calvery until he was inside the lobby and she came in. Frazier didn’t identify Calvery by name at the WC but said the “somebody” who was crying that JFK had been shot was “right before I went back in” the building. These statements scarcely mesh. They would mesh a lot better - wouldn't they? - if Shelley and Lovelady encountered Calvery at some point before she reached the steps.

Shouldn’t Shelley’s recollection the day of the JFKA carry considerable weight? He gratuitously inserted this in a very short affidavit within a very short time after the event


Yes, Shelley's affidavit, given a couple of hours after the assassination, should be considered the most reliable.
After the shooting he runs across the street, meets Gloria, returns to the building.
That's it.
No trip down to the railroad yard.
But in his WC testimony he is unequivocal that he stays on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria comes up.
This isn't about 'time dilation'. This is a different sequence of events. This is a fabrication.
So, which is it - he left the steps and met Gloria across the street or he waited on the steps until Gloria arrived?
And as for your 'time dilation' argument - what great trauma was Shelley undergoing, while he waited on the steps, that made time stretch seconds into minutes?

Apart from his affidavit, Shelley lied about his movements after the assassination.
He did not wait on the steps until Gloria arrived - this is a lie.
He did not wait there for 3 minutes - this is a lie.
He did not go across the street AFTER Gloria came up to the steps - this is a lie.
He did not see Truly and Baker outside the building while he was on the "little, old island" - this is a lie.
He did not accompany police officers along the extension - this is a lie.
He did not hang around at the railroad yard for about 10 minutes - this is a lie.
He did not re-enter the building through the west door - this is a lie.

[Tom Graves]

Expected reply from Fancy Prancer Rants:

"Maybe Gloria Calvert (sic) always took her glasses off when she was crying."

[Dan O'meara]

The picture below was taken in December 1963, a few weeks after the assassination and is of ‘the office girls’ working out of Room 203. It is one of a series of photos donated to the 6th Floor Museum by Karen Westbrook Scranton:



The photo appears with the following description::

“From left to right in this photo: Woman with dark hair whose name is unknown, Gloria Calvery (red hair, with glasses), Carol (last name unknown), another Carol (last name unknown), Karen Hicks in red, and on the far right, Westbrook.”

The woman on the far left is the heavily pregnant Carolyn Arnold. We know from the CE 1381’s that Westbrook worked with two Carol’s but, in the photo above, which Carol was Carol Hughes and which was Carol Ann Reed. On his website, Pat Speer reveals:

“Karen Westbrook also mentioned Carol Ann Reed... (Researcher Brian Doyle reports that he contacted Reed, and that she identified herself in the Christmas photos put online by Westbrook, and that she is the fourth woman from the left, with the white sleeves…)”

From left to right the women are Carolyn Arnold, Gloria Calvery, Carol Hughes, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook.
I wonder if Lance can identify the women below in the above picture:

[Dan O'meara]

You lost me there.

In his affidavit the day of the JFKA, Shelley said he crossed the street "to the corner of the park" and encountered Calvery. At the WC he said he and Lovelady were on the steps (with him on the landing) when "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said 'The President has been shot' and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different. (Well, yes, he is saying they heard Calvery before they left the steps, but he's not necessarily saying she was on the steps before they left.)

Yes, the women in Duncan's video are coming down toward the TSBD from where they had been watching the motorcade. I interpret Shelley's "back up there crying" to mean in the direction of the TSBD, where he and Lovelady could see and hear her. I see no basis for thinking Shelley is saying Calvery ran back toward the knoll.

So in one case he encounters Calvery across the street, and at the WC it's not clear that he's saying anything different.


Is this statement a deliberate falsehood?
Is it ignorance about the basics?
Is it delusion?
In his WC testimony Shelley leaves no doubt that he stays on the steps until Gloria arrives and that he only leaves the steps AFTER listening to Gloria:

Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

So, which is it Lance - did Shelley meet Gloria across the street or did he stay on the steps until she arrived there?
And while you're mulling that over, let's have your timeline outlining the movements of Shelley and Lovelady from the time of the shots to the moment you see them on the Elm St ext. in Couch about 25 seconds after the shots. This is the fourth time you've been asked for it.