JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Bullet mark on the manhole south side of Elm St.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Thomas H. Purvis Author Posted March 25, 2006 Time/Life Missing Shot
Over the past period of time, copies of the WC Survey Plat, as well as from the US Secret Service Survey Plat of 12/5/63 have been provided.
All of these copies were made directly from originals which I received directly from Mr. Robert West, and absolutely none of these survey plats address or have anything in them as relates to some purported "AREA OF BULLET SHOT ON CURB" for any location on Elm St.
In addition, there is absolutely nothing which addresses any such purported item in any of the numerous pages of survey notes from all of the various survey's which West Survey completed in Dealy Plaza.
The ABSOLUTE & ONLY reference to any curb damage is that which appears on the WC Survey Plat for the location of the Tague "hit" as has been posted.
Now to the "missing" shot of the Time/Life Survey.
During this survey work, West Survey was pointed to a spot/position on Elm St. and directed to survey it in, with the explanation that a bullet had struck the pavement at this point.
This position is directly in front of the location of the first shot/"K" position on Elm St, and slightly farther to the left side of the road, in the direction of the limousine travel.
Yet, the position is still located "behind" the view of the road sign which stood between Mr. Zapruder & his line of sight to JFK.
With the scale of the Time/Life survey plat, this would place the PAVEMENT strike/2nd shot as having occurred approximately 17.5 feet past the position identified as "K"/first shot fired.
Obviously, from what we now know of the Carcano, a second shot could not have occurred at this point, fired from this rifle.
In fact, with the known speed of the presidential limousine through this area, it would have been difficult to acquire the target and get off a second shot this quickly even with a semi-automatic rifle.
Rest assured that the PAVEMENT strike on Elm St., as demonstrated by the Time/Life Survey Plat, was thoroughly discussed with Mr. West.
Basically, Mr. West stated that they were told to survey in this point. That's it!
Other than this, Mr. West adamantly stated that there was absolutely no indications in/on the Elm St. asphalt that any bullet had struck anywhere, and they the street was thoroughtly searched for any indications of such a strike.
Nevertheless, they (West Survey) was directed to survey in this "Pavement Strike" point and classify it as the second shot fired.
Other than this, Mr. West had no knowledge of any other potential pavement and/or Curb Strike of any bullet and/or bullet fragment at any point in Dealy Plaza, other than the referenced Tague hit position over on the Main St. Curb.
[My comments:Oswald's shot-1 at pseudo Z105 (that ricocheted off the overhead signal arm) made a hole in the floorpan of the jfklimo, & might have made a small crater in the tarmac, or it might have hit the driveshaft.]
[Hickey's auto burst of at least 4 shots might have hit Elm St & Main St (tarmac & kerb) & grass in 2 or more places, including the kerb near Tague.]
[Praps a 55 grain 223 at 3000 fps makes only a faint graze on tarmac if ricocheting at a very shallow angle, easily missed by West & Co.]
Mr. West informed me of the "rumors" of some bullet/fragment strike down at the manhole cover and the concrete inlet, however he also stated that no verification could be found that any bullet/fragment had struck in that vicinity either.
[My comment: I think that West somehow missed seeing the bullet mark on the concrete on the southwest corner of the manhole.]
In fact, it was during this conversation that Mr. West volunteered that he had some photo's from some newspaper's which showed plainclothes Dallas Police down at the curb inlet, supposedly looking at damage caused here as well as one of these persons purportedly picking up a bullet out of the grass.
Mr. West volunteered to send me a copy of this photo when he could find it. Which he ultimately did.
So, during the Time/Life Survey, West Survey was directed to survey in a position on Elm Street, which was purportedly the impact point of shot# 2, to which they assigned the letter "P" for PAVEMENT impact
point.
Yet, according to Mr. West, there was not damage to the asphalt of Elm St. at thisj point, and in fact Elm St. was thoroughly searched throughout, and no indications of a bullet strike could be found.
And, that there was absolutely no mention/indications of any "Curb Strike" other than the Tague hit over on the Main St. Curb which they surveyed in, and the "claimed" bullet/fragment strike down at the curb drain inlet.
Now! I currently have in my possession five seperate survey plats from the West Survey Work done in Dealy Plaza. Each of which was made for me directly from the original survey plat, by Mr. Robert West.
In addiltion to this, I also have copies of each and every survey note which Mr. West could locate for this various survey work, and I might add, this includes the survey notes from the Time/Life Survey as well, and I can state categorically, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO ANY BULLET STRIKE ONTO THE ELM ST CURB in any of this documentation.
But then of course, I probably work for the CIA and am merely another "disinformation agent" here to decieve and misdirect you.
Under the assumption that Mr. Paul Hardin, in his letter of 1978, was recalling to the best of his ability certain aspects of which he absolutely participated, and others of which he may heard, then it is easily understandable as to how certain aspects of the Time/Life Survey could have become intermingled with the Tague curb strike of the WC Survey.
Considering how many times my own memory tends to be somewhat "out of focus", and giving benefit of doubt, then this is quite understandable, that some 15 years later, the events may have begun to "blend" together.
Mr. Breneman may have remembered things this way, just as he may have marked up some copy of a survey plat to demonstrate it.
HOWEVER! There is nothing in any survey plat or in any of the survey notes to substantiate that this claim has any basis in fact.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Edna Hartman shows where hole & line in grass.
She seems to show 2 lines/shots, each over 6 paces long, starting at or near the manhole.
Years ago she said that the holes of the burrows-mounds were 1.5 inches wide & 18 in to 24 in long. Not 18 ft long.
And she said that the entrance was at a chip on the concrete kerb, ie not a chip on the manhole.
Alltho if there were 2 burrows then the chip would be at one of the burrows, not both.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8g4StoPZ1Q 7: 36 long. 1991.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyQEmlRsDRI 1:17 long.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
229 Bullet / projectile recovered near sewer cover https://jfk.boards.net/
Compare:
50 The Harper Fragment
63 7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/63
69 Bullet found in JFK's limousine
77 File cabinet containing, “records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers”
97 James Tague May 1964 Dealey plaza color film
Erasing the Past...Discussions
Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, who was positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw a bullet strike the
grass on the south side of Elm Street near a manhole cover, about 350 feet from the TSBD. He reported
this to a superior officer and was instructed to guard the area.
[my comment][no he did not see any shot hit grass]
(Michael T. Griffith, Extra bullets and missed shots, Second Edition Revised on 4/28/2001)
Another group of pictures taken at Dealey Plaza shortly after the assassination by Jim Murray of Blackstar
Photo Service and William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald revealed another individual wearing exactly the
same kind of radio receiver in a semi-invisible earclip. In this series of photos, Deputy Sheriff Buddy
Walthers is shown looking down at a bullet while a neatly dressed blond man is reaching down to pick it up.
The unidentified blond man was wearing the plastic radio receiver clipped to his ear lobe.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2016/185/138955293_1467696828.jpg
The bullet was never seen again. The Warren Commission did not ask Walthers about the bullet or the
blond man with the earclip, and he did not volunteer anything about them. Walthers subsequently was
murdered, so it is safe to conclude that this bullet will remain on the long list of missing or destroyed
evidence.
(Jim Garisson, On the trail of the assassins of JFK, 1988)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/84/f2/d084f2245b0308608d3e67deb96c5feb.jpg
The elusive Robert Barrett
Mark Oakes did an excellent job researching this subject many years ago ... He makes a strong case that
the man next to Walthers was FBI agent Robert Barrett. Barret's friend, FBI agent Robert Gemberling, is
the person who helped ID Barrett.
(Jim DiEugenio, Reclaiming Parkland, p. 211)
But Barrett said it was not he (Telephone interview of Robert Barrett by author on March 5, 2004; Barrett
said he had told this to assassination researcher Dale Myers earlier).
Despite the oft-cited references to a bullet being recovered near the sewer cover, if a bullet were actually
recovered, it is difficult to believe that no record would exist. After all, the plaza was full of spectators at
the time of the alleged discovery, the story was covered by numerous reporters, and the actual event was
captured on film by two photographers. If investigators destroyed the evidence, as critics allege, how
would they know just minutes after the shooting in Dealey Plaza and before any bullet or fragments were
even recovered that they would have to get rid of a “fourth” bullet? The allegation makes no sense unless
you believe (as many critics do) that Oswald had been chosen well in advance of the shooting to be the
fall guy.
(Vincent Bugliosi, Reclaiming history)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/slug1.jpg
A sequence of photos show one of the men picking something up out of the grass and then putting it in
his pocket. Some researchers claim that these men were FBI or CIA agents. Walthers initially claimed a
bullet was found. However, he later changed his mind and said it was actually a piece of JFK's head.
Some researchers have suggested that it was a bullet that could not be linked to Lee Harvey Oswald
that was being placed in the agent's pocket.
(Buddy Walthers Spartacus educational)
Edna and Wayne Hartman were key witnesses to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy - witnessing
a burrow created by a missed shot that hit and raised up the turf near the curbside manhole cover on the
south side of Elm Street in Dealey Plaza.
On 11/22/63, the Hartmans had been at Mullendorf's Cafe on Main St. near Dealey Plaza when they heard
that the Presidential motorcade would soon pass by the cafe. They went outside and stood at the N.E.
corner of Main and Record to watch the motorcade, then returned to the cafe. Within minutes they heard
loud gunshots and immediately went outside and proceeded down Main St. to Dealey Plaza where they saw
generalized chaos and encountered a policeman and a small boy on the Grassy Knoll.
Edna Hartman later recalled to JFK author, Jim Marrs, "He [the policeman] pointed to some bushes near the
railroad tracks on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from... Then I noticed
these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these,
mole hills?' and the policeman said, 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'"
(Marrs, Crossfire, 315-16).
Amateur assassination photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in plain clothes . . .
digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bullet" there. And professional photographers Jim Murray
and William Allen took a famous sequence of photos showing Dep. Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian
clothes) watching as a blonde-haired man, he believed to be an FBI agent, pointed at the dug-out spot on
the ground just off Elm Street, bent over, scooped something up from the turf, then put the item in his pocket.
Shown the photos, Dallas Police Chief, Jesse Curry, said the man was an FBI agent, but he didn't know his
name. Later he said he knew his name but wouldn't divulge his name. Some have identified him as FBI Special
Agent Robert Barrett (since disproved), others as FBI Agent Kenneth "Prince" Albert (the agent has a very
strong likeness to his yearbook photos). The photographs have been widely published.
Murray also photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been cleared; this photograph
ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram, captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer
of President Kennedy lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in reference to
the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor
window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
In 1964 the Hartman's responded to an FBI request to the public for witnesses to contact them with
information. The FBI did not take their statement until July 1964 (CD 1518). Edna said when the they went
to the FBI to volunteer their detailed observations the FBI acted like their observations were not important
to the FBI or the investigation, and that it did not matter to the FBI whether the HARTMAN's made a
statement or not. Edna said the FBI dismissively told them that the bullet track was caused by "pieces of
bone from the skull of the president," but Edna said "I told them I did not believe a bone could do all of that."
And "The angle it (the bullet track) was, it could not have been from the President's skull".
The Hartman's told the FBI the hole as about 1 1/2" in diameter and the burrow as shallow, not going down
into the earth, but running just under the roots of the grass for about 18-24 inches. They described its
direction as being from the Grassy Knoll toward the south, ie: toward Main Street. (This would be
perpendicular to the direction of a missed shot had it been fired from the Texas School Book Depository.)
In 1982, Dallas Morning News reporter, Earl Golz, interviewed the Hartmans for his book writing that the
Hartman's said the bullet track was "...not in line with the shots fired from the depository building..." but
was "...aligned in the direction of the grassy knoll across the street and to the right front of the limousine."
When JFK reseacher/author, Jim Marrs, interviewed the Hartmans for his 1989 book "Crossfire" he shared
with them the content of their FBI Statements for the first time and were furious to learn that their
statements had been altered by the FBI, without their knowledge or permission to state the burrow
created by the missed shot led back in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository - something
they never said and directly opposed to the direction of the burrow they saw on 11/22/63.
In her videotaped interview with JFK researcher, Mark Oaks, in 1991, Mrs. Hartman specifically said the
direction of the furrow led back to the area "by a large tree above the Grassy Knoll," where it has long
been posited there was another assassin.
(Wayne Eldrige Hartman, Find a grave memorial)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FxK3mZTd9W8/UE94Umfq16I/AAAAAAAAAFc/aqNIB5KODns/s400/JFK+-+Buddy+Walthers+and+JW+Foster.jpg
The Hartmans, who came forward for the first time almost nine months later, both told the FBI the unrealistically
precise story that the gouge in the turf was “one and one-half inches in diameter” and the hole continued
just beneath the roots of the grass for about “18 to 24 inches.” Indeed, if we’re to believe Wayne Hartman,
right in front of the police officer, he was “able to fit three” of his fingers “into the hole.” (CD 1518, pp.42–45,
Interview of the Hartmans by FBI agents Raymond Switzer and Robert Barrett on August 7, 1964) Because
of the Hartmans’ statements, on September 18, 1964, the FBI went to the subject area of the turf with a metal
detector, but no fragments of a bullet were found (CD 1518, p.45-A).
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
In Altgens 7 we see Officer Foster (far left) standing hi up on a small railway cabinet behind the gawkers.
There is a possibility that the hi concrete post of the barricade blocks Foster's view of the manhole on the south side of Elm St.
If so, then Foster could not have seen a bullet hit the grass near that manhole.
The hi post more likely blocks Foster's view of where say one of Hickey's 4 or 5 shots possibly hit the grass, as this was well west of the manhole. Hickey's auto burst was on a line say 13 ft north of the manhole.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12733&fullsize=1
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 14, 2023, 12:05:52 AM ---229 Bullet / projectile recovered near sewer cover https://jfk.boards.net/
Compare:
50 The Harper Fragment
63 7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/63
69 Bullet found in JFK's limousine
77 File cabinet containing, “records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers”
97 James Tague May 1964 Dealey plaza color film
Erasing the Past...Discussions
Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, who was positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw a bullet strike the
grass on the south side of Elm Street near a manhole cover, about 350 feet from the TSBD. He reported
this to a superior officer and was instructed to guard the area.
(Michael T. Griffith, Extra bullets and missed shots, Second Edition Revised on 4/28/2001)
Another group of pictures taken at Dealey Plaza shortly after the assassination by Jim Murray of Blackstar
Photo Service and William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald revealed another individual wearing exactly the
same kind of radio receiver in a semi-invisible earclip. In this series of photos, Deputy Sheriff Buddy
Walthers is shown looking down at a bullet while a neatly dressed blond man is reaching down to pick it up.
The unidentified blond man was wearing the plastic radio receiver clipped to his ear lobe.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2016/185/138955293_1467696828.jpg
The bullet was never seen again. The Warren Commission did not ask Walthers about the bullet or the
blond man with the earclip, and he did not volunteer anything about them. Walthers subsequently was
murdered, so it is safe to conclude that this bullet will remain on the long list of missing or destroyed
evidence.
(Jim Garisson, On the trail of the assassins of JFK, 1988)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/84/f2/d084f2245b0308608d3e67deb96c5feb.jpg
The elusive Robert Barrett
Mark Oakes did an excellent job researching this subject many years ago ... He makes a strong case that
the man next to Walthers was FBI agent Robert Barrett. Barret's friend, FBI agent Robert Gemberling, is
the person who helped ID Barrett.
(Jim DiEugenio, Reclaiming Parkland, p. 211)
But Barrett said it was not he (Telephone interview of Robert Barrett by author on March 5, 2004; Barrett
said he had told this to assassination researcher Dale Myers earlier).
Despite the oft-cited references to a bullet being recovered near the sewer cover, if a bullet were actually
recovered, it is difficult to believe that no record would exist. After all, the plaza was full of spectators at
the time of the alleged discovery, the story was covered by numerous reporters, and the actual event was
captured on film by two photographers. If investigators destroyed the evidence, as critics allege, how
would they know just minutes after the shooting in Dealey Plaza and before any bullet or fragments were
even recovered that they would have to get rid of a “fourth” bullet? The allegation makes no sense unless
you believe (as many critics do) that Oswald had been chosen well in advance of the shooting to be the
fall guy.
(Vincent Bugliosi, Reclaiming history)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/slug1.jpg
A sequence of photos show one of the men picking something up out of the grass and then putting it in
his pocket. Some researchers claim that these men were FBI or CIA agents. Walthers initially claimed a
bullet was found. However, he later changed his mind and said it was actually a piece of JFK's head.
Some researchers have suggested that it was a bullet that could not be linked to Lee Harvey Oswald
that was being placed in the agent's pocket.
(Buddy Walthers Spartacus educational)
Edna and Wayne Hartman were key witnesses to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy - witnessing
a burrow created by a missed shot that hit and raised up the turf near the curbside manhole cover on the
south side of Elm Street in Dealey Plaza.
On 11/22/63, the Hartmans had been at Mullendorf's Cafe on Main St. near Dealey Plaza when they heard
that the Presidential motorcade would soon pass by the cafe. They went outside and stood at the N.E.
corner of Main and Record to watch the motorcade, then returned to the cafe. Within minutes they heard
loud gunshots and immediately went outside and proceeded down Main St. to Dealey Plaza where they saw
generalized chaos and encountered a policeman and a small boy on the Grassy Knoll.
Edna Hartman later recalled to JFK author, Jim Marrs, "He [the policeman] pointed to some bushes near the
railroad tracks on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from... Then I noticed
these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these,
mole hills?' and the policeman said, 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'"
(Marrs, Crossfire, 315-16).
Amateur assassination photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in plain clothes . . .
digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bullet" there. And professional photographers Jim Murray
and William Allen took a famous sequence of photos showing Dep. Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian
clothes) watching as a blonde-haired man, he believed to be an FBI agent, pointed at the dug-out spot on
the ground just off Elm Street, bent over, scooped something up from the turf, then put the item in his pocket.
Shown the photos, Dallas Police Chief, Jesse Curry, said the man was an FBI agent, but he didn't know his
name. Later he said he knew his name but wouldn't divulge his name. Some have identified him as FBI Special
Agent Robert Barrett (since disproved), others as FBI Agent Kenneth "Prince" Albert (the agent has a very
strong likeness to his yearbook photos). The photographs have been widely published.
Murray also photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been cleared; this photograph
ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram, captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer
of President Kennedy lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in reference to
the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor
window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
In 1964 the Hartman's responded to an FBI request to the public for witnesses to contact them with
information. The FBI did not take their statement until July 1964 (CD 1518). Edna said when the they went
to the FBI to volunteer their detailed observations the FBI acted like their observations were not important
to the FBI or the investigation, and that it did not matter to the FBI whether the HARTMAN's made a
statement or not. Edna said the FBI dismissively told them that the bullet track was caused by "pieces of
bone from the skull of the president," but Edna said "I told them I did not believe a bone could do all of that."
And "The angle it (the bullet track) was, it could not have been from the President's skull".
The Hartman's told the FBI the hole as about 1 1/2" in diameter and the burrow as shallow, not going down
into the earth, but running just under the roots of the grass for about 18-24 inches. They described its
direction as being from the Grassy Knoll toward the south, ie: toward Main Street. (This would be
perpendicular to the direction of a missed shot had it been fired from the Texas School Book Depository.)
In 1982, Dallas Morning News reporter, Earl Golz, interviewed the Hartmans for his book writing that the
Hartman's said the bullet track was "...not in line with the shots fired from the depository building..." but
was "...aligned in the direction of the grassy knoll across the street and to the right front of the limousine."
When JFK reseacher/author, Jim Marrs, interviewed the Hartmans for his 1989 book "Crossfire" he shared
with them the content of their FBI Statements for the first time and were furious to learn that their
statements had been altered by the FBI, without their knowledge or permission to state the burrow
created by the missed shot led back in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository - something
they never said and directly opposed to the direction of the burrow they saw on 11/22/63.
In her videotaped interview with JFK researcher, Mark Oaks, in 1991, Mrs. Hartman specifically said the
direction of the furrow led back to the area "by a large tree above the Grassy Knoll," where it has long
been posited there was another assassin.
(Wayne Eldrige Hartman, Find a grave memorial)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FxK3mZTd9W8/UE94Umfq16I/AAAAAAAAAFc/aqNIB5KODns/s400/JFK+-+Buddy+Walthers+and+JW+Foster.jpg
The Hartmans, who came forward for the first time almost nine months later, both told the FBI the unrealistically
precise story that the gouge in the turf was “one and one-half inches in diameter” and the hole continued
just beneath the roots of the grass for about “18 to 24 inches.” Indeed, if we’re to believe Wayne Hartman,
right in front of the police officer, he was “able to fit three” of his fingers “into the hole.” (CD 1518, pp.42–45,
Interview of the Hartmans by FBI agents Raymond Switzer and Robert Barrett on August 7, 1964) Because
of the Hartmans’ statements, on September 18, 1964, the FBI went to the subject area of the turf with a metal
detector, but no fragments of a bullet were found (CD 1518, p.45-A).
--- End quote ---
I have not been able to find youtube etc showing whether a bullet can make a 1.5" dia hole, 18" to 24" long, in turf .
I have not been able to find youtube etc showing whether a bullet ricocheting off concrete can lift a sod of turf (eg on the edge of the manhole).
I have found youtube showing that a rifle bullet usually makes a very small gouge on concrete when hitting on a shallow angle, not as severe as the deep scar seen in the photos of the manhole.
SSA Sorrell inspected the scar on the manhole & declared that the scar was not made by a bullet.
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