Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Martin Weidmann]

At 1:18:38, Butler (ambulance 602) reports on the police radio that they are en route.

At 1:18:59, the ambulance (602) reports to the police dispatcher that they have arrived at the scene.

William Scoggins, after finally getting through to his dispatcher on the cabbie radio, got out of his cab and went over to the scene to see if he could help Butler and Kinsley.

Kinsley and Butler took the stretcher out of the ambulance and rolled Tippit's body over (Tippit was lying on his belly).  Once the body was rolled over, Callaway picked up the service revolver (which was underneath the body) and placed it on the hood of the patrol car.  Then, Callaway helped Kinsley place the body onto the stretcher.  Callaway, Kinsley and a couple others then loaded the stretcher into the ambulance.

Then, this:

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher calling out for Officer Roy Walker, 85)

J.C. Butler:  "602"  (this is the ambulance driver, Butler, calling in trying to get hold of the dispatcher)

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher still trying to reach Walker)

Roy Walker:  "85"  (this is Walker replying to the dispatcher, who was calling out for him)

Dispatcher:  "Suspect running west on Jefferson, the location."  (this is the dispatcher telling Walker where the suspect was last seen)

Walker:  "10-4"  (this is Walker acknowledging that he received that information from the dispatcher)


While the above was going on between the dispatcher and Walker ...... J.C. Butler (ambulance driver, 602) radioed in to let the police dispatcher know that the shooting victim was a police officer. 

Around 1:19:45 to 1:19:55, Officer Kenneth Croy arrived on the scene still in uniform but in an unmarked car (he was in his personal vehicle).  Croy arrived in time to see them loading the body into the ambulance.

The ambulance was loaded and Butler & Kinsley began to drive from the scene.  As they pulled away, Butler got on the radio to inform the police dispatcher that the were en route to the hospital.  However, Butler could not get through because it was at this time that Callaway was on the patrol car radio reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher:

Callaway: "Hello. Hello. Hello."  (Callaway calling out for the police dispatcher)

Butler:  "602"  (ambulance driver Butler, 602, trying to call for the dispatcher)

Callaway:  "Calling from right here on Tenth Street, 500 block, this police officer's just shot, I think he's dead."

Dispatcher:  "10-4.  We have the information.  The citizen using the radio will remain off the radio now."

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS


Callaway has not noticed Croy at the scene.  Croy was in uniform but not in a police car.

"The first thing I did was get hold of a witness." -- Kenneth Croy

Croy turned over two witnesses to officers who would eventually arrive at the scene.  Based on his description, Croy's two witnesses were Jimmy Burt and Helen Markham.

While Callaway was on the police radio, T.F. Bowley grabbed the service revolver from the hood and placed it inside the patrol car, onto the front seat.

Benavides returned to the scene at this time (he originally left the scene, only to return moments later).

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear, he (Callaway) jumped out and ran around and asked me did I see what happened and I said 'Yes'".  This is when Callaway grabbed the revolver from the front seat and said to Benavides "let's chase him". -- Domingo Benavides

Benavides said no, he did not wish to go in search of the killer.  This is when Callaway went over to Scoggins, still with the revolver, and recruited Scoggins to go in search of the killer.

T.F. Bowley, having just placed the revolver into the front seat while Callaway was on the police radio, saw Callaway open the cylinder of the revolver to make sure it was loaded.  Bowley saw that the revolver was fully loaded.

Croy and Callaway never saw each other.  Otherwise, the scenario where Callaway left with Tippit's revolver would not have played out.


All of this is covered, in detail, in With Malice by Dale Myers.  All anyone really has to do is buy the book and read it, especially pages 160-164 in the updated 2013 edition.

All of this is covered, in detail, in With Malice by Dale Myers.  All anyone really has to do is buy the book and read it, especially pages 160-164 in the updated 2013 edition.

All this tells me is that With Malice contains a completely false representation of the actual facts. Btw, I was under the impression that I was having a debate with Bill Brown. Am I now to understand that I am actually having a debate with a book?

At 1:18:38, Butler (ambulance 602) reports on the police radio that they are en route.

At 1:18:59, the ambulance (602) reports to the police dispatcher that they have arrived at the scene.

First of all, the times given for the departure and arrival of the ambulance are completely fictitious. There is no credible source available to confirm them. The only thing that can be measured to the second is the time lapse between two calls as they are recorded on the DPD audio tapes. There is also no Code 6 (arrival at the scene) on the actual audio recording, at least not as is misrepresented here at 21 seconds after Butlers Code 5 (en route call)

Using the actual audio recording it can be determined that 18 seconds after the initial Code 5 call, ambulance 602 calls Code 6, but it is for the wrong location; 501 Jefferson. This is why the driver asks the dispatcher, 5 seconds later "What was that address on Jefferson?".

To present this arrival of the ambulance (at the wrong location) as the one at the correct location is a willful distortion of the actual events as also recorded on the DPD transcripts that used to be on the McAdams site.

          602 (ambulance)   602, Code 5. My comment: Code 5 means "en route"       
          211 (Ptm. R. Hawkins)   211.       
          Dispatcher   211.       
          211   We're clear, Industrial and Stemmons. We'll go out there.       
          Dispatcher   10-4, 211.       
          15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert)   15.       
          603 (ambulance)   603, Code 5, Baylor.       
          602 (ambulance)   602, Code 6 (?)  My comment: This is the arrival at Jefferson

1:19     Dispatcher   10-4, 603 and 602. 1:19.   
      602 (ambulance)   What was that address on Jefferson?   
      Dispatcher   501 East Tenth.   
      85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker)   85 en route.   
      19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)   19.   
      Dispatcher   19.   
      19   Give me the correct address on the shooting.   .
      Dispatcher   501 East Tenth.   
      105 (Ptm. J.M. Poe and Ptm. L.E. Joz)   
      602 (ambulance)   602, Code 6. My comment: This is the arrival at Tippit scene

Kinsley and Butler took the stretcher out of the ambulance and rolled Tippit's body over (Tippit was lying on his belly).  Once the body was rolled over, Callaway picked up the service revolver (which was underneath the body) and placed it on the hood of the patrol car.  Then, Callaway helped Kinsley place the body onto the stretcher.  Callaway, Kinsley and a couple others then loaded the stretcher into the ambulance.

Then, this:

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher calling out for Officer Roy Walker, 85)

J.C. Butler:  "602"  (this is the ambulance driver, Butler, calling in trying to get hold of the dispatcher)

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher still trying to reach Walker)

Roy Walker:  "85"  (this is Walker replying to the dispatcher, who was calling out for him)

Dispatcher:  "Suspect running west on Jefferson, the location."  (this is the dispatcher telling Walker where the suspect was last seen)

Walker:  "10-4"  (this is Walker acknowledging that he received that information from the dispatcher)

While the above was going on between the dispatcher and Walker ...... J.C. Butler (ambulance driver, 602) radioed in to let the police dispatcher know that the shooting victim was a police officer. 

Another completely false representation of what actually happened. It is easily demonstrated as false by the statement Butler made to George and Patricia Nash in 1964;

“Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman. Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled “Mayday” to no avail, and went back to Tippit.

The officer lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car. Butler and Kinsley rolled him over and saw the bullet wound through Tippit’s temple. Butler told us, “I thought he was dead then. It’s not my position to say so. We got him into the ambulance and we got going as quick as possible. On the way to the hospital I finally let them know it was a policeman”.”


Butler clearly states that he tried to get in touch with the dispatcher, but failed because the radio was busy, before he went back to Tippit, who still "lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car."

The ambulance was loaded and Butler & Kinsley began to drive from the scene.  As they pulled away, Butler got on the radio to inform the police dispatcher that the were en route to the hospital.  However, Butler could not get through because it was at this time that Callaway was on the patrol car radio reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

Also not true. Butler tried to contact the dispatcher twice. Notice how Brown has now changed his story; earlier in this thread he wrote;

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.

That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).

which suggested that both "602" calls were from Butler "attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene". Now the story has changed into the first "602" being Butler trying to tell the dispatcher that the victim was a police officer and the second one being Butler informing the dispatcher that they were leaving the scene.

In reality, there were only 8 seconds between the first and the second try. Brown has constantly failed miserably in showing any evidence that the second call to the dispatcher was to tell him the ambulance was en route to the hospital. Butler stated that after he could not get the attention of the dispatcher he returned to Tippit who still lay next to his car. 

While Callaway was on the police radio, T.F. Bowley grabbed the service revolver from the hood and placed it inside the patrol car, onto the front seat.

Benavides returned to the scene at this time (he originally left the scene, only to return moments later).

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear, he (Callaway) jumped out and ran around and asked me did I see what happened and I said 'Yes'".  This is when Callaway grabbed the revolver from the front seat and said to Benavides "let's chase him". -- Domingo Benavides

Hilarious, how in the world can Bowley place the revolver onto the front seat of the car when, at that moment, Callaway is sitting there, making his call?

Trying to have a debate with somebody who so clearly is lying and misrepresenting the actual evidence is a waste of my and everybody's time. Unless Brown starts to substantiate his silly claims with more than "This is what happened, because I say so and/or it's in Myers book", there is no point to continue this conversation. I've made my case.

Btw, I will gladly make available the mp3 of the actual radio recording to anybody who hasn't got it himself and wants to check the actual times between the different events in the sequence. Just send me a PM.

[Bill Brown]

"A few minutes later an ambulance came to the scene. I helped load the officer onto the stretcher and into the ambulance. As we picked the officer up, I noticed his pistol laying on the ground under him. Someone picked the pistol up and laid it on the hood of the squad car. When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car. A man took the pistol out and said, "Let's catch him." He opened the cylinder, and I saw that no rounds in it had been fired. This man then took the pistol with him and got into a cab and drove off." -- T.F. Bowley (12-2-63 affidavit)

AFTER the ambulance left, Bowley placed the revolver inside the patrol car.

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear, he (Callaway) jumped out and ran around and asked me did I see what happened and I said 'Yes'". -- Domingo Benavides

This is when Callaway grabbed the revolver from the front seat and said to Benavides "let's chase him".

Benavides doesn't make any mention here of Callaway helping load the body into the ambulance because that had already occurred earlier.  Benavides is clearly telling you that Callaway made his report on the police radio, then he grabbed the revolver and went off in search of the killer.  The ambulance was already gone.

"...and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

Scoggins also tells you that the ambulance "took him (Tippit) away" and then Callaway "got on the radio at that time".

Callaway said the ambulance was arriving just as he (Callaway) was getting to the scene.  Callaway helps load the body into the ambulance and then, as the ambulance is pulling away from the scene, Callaway gets on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

The police tapes, if you correctly decipher them, tell you the exact same thing that Bowley, Benavides and Scoggins tell you.

[Martin Weidmann]

"A few minutes later an ambulance came to the scene. I helped load the officer onto the stretcher and into the ambulance. As we picked the officer up, I noticed his pistol laying on the ground under him. Someone picked the pistol up and laid it on the hood of the squad car. When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car. A man took the pistol out and said, "Let's catch him." He opened the cylinder, and I saw that no rounds in it had been fired. This man then took the pistol with him and got into a cab and drove off." -- T.F. Bowley (12-2-63 affidavit)

AFTER the ambulance left, Bowley placed the revolver inside the patrol car.

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear, he (Callaway) jumped out and ran around and asked me did I see what happened and I said 'Yes'". -- Domingo Benavides

This is when Callaway grabbed the revolver from the front seat and said to Benavides "let's chase him".

Benavides doesn't make any mention here of Callaway helping load the body into the ambulance because that had already occurred earlier.  Benavides is clearly telling you that Callaway made his report on the police radio, then he grabbed the revolver and went off in search of the killer.  The ambulance was already gone.

"...and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

Scoggins also tells you that the ambulance "took him (Tippit) away" and then Callaway "got on the radio at that time".

Callaway said the ambulance was arriving just as he (Callaway) was getting to the scene.  Callaway helps load the body into the ambulance and then, as the ambulance is pulling away from the scene, Callaway gets on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

You're preaching. When can I expect an actual factual debate? Repeating the same old opinions based on nothing but the same misinterpretations you started out with isn't going to make any of it true, more accurate or credible.

For the second time now, you have completely ignored everything I have stated and backed up with verifiable evidence. Instead you keep on telling us a fairytale story for which you have no credible supporting evidence. All you have presented is your flawed opinions about a couple of alleged quotes for which, despite my request, have still failed to provide even a credible source. And you don't even have the balls to challenge the information I have provided.

The two people who are the most prominent in this matter are Callaway and Butler and they both tell a very different story than the one you are trying to sell here. The audio recordings of the DPD radio provides us with a verifiable second by second record of the events and they back up completely what Callaway and Butler combined have said.

Your usual "what I tell you is true, because I said so" act is getting tiresome. For somebody who was desperate to have this debate you seem to not even know what the word means.

Callaway said the ambulance was arriving just as he (Callaway) was getting to the scene.  Callaway helps load the body into the ambulance and then, as the ambulance is pulling away from the scene, Callaway gets on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

Stop lying. Callaway said nothing of the kind.

On 02/25/64 Callaway was interviewed by FBI agent Arthur Carter. In his FD 302 report he writes:

.......he [Callaway] observed that TIPPIT had been shot in the temple. He said TIPPIT was lying on his pistol and he, CALLAWAY, took the pistol and put it on the hood of TiPPIT's patrol car. Then he got in the patrol car and used the police radio to contact the Dallas Police Department, who advised they were aware that the police officer [TIPPIT] had been shot. He said the dispatcher told him to get off the air. About that time an ambulance came up and CALLAWAY said he and an unidentified citizen helped the ambulance driver put the officer (TIPPIT) in the ambulance.

On 03/26/64 Callaway testified before the Warren Commission and said;

Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.
By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. He did.

Which part of this quote from Callaway's testimony;

So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them,

don't you understand?

The police tapes, if you correctly decipher them, tell you the exact same thing that Bowley, Benavides and Scoggins tell you.


And by "correctly decipher them" you mean misrepresent them and skip over parts that do not fit your story, as you did in one of your previous posts, right?

[Bill Brown]

As I've pointed out here..... Bowley, Benavides, Scoggins and the police tapes clearly tell you that Callaway got on the police radio just as the ambulance was pulling away from the scene with the body.

It's not my concern that Weidmann doesn't get it.

What's lost in all of this is that Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before he jumped on the patrol car radio has no bearing one way or the other on Oswald's already proven guilt for the murder of J.D. Tippit.

Face it.  Callaway arrived on the scene, helped load the body into the ambulance, got on the squad car radio to report the shooting to the dispatcher and then grabbed Tippit's service revolver and went off in search of the killer.

This thread is now wide open for others, if any of you wish, to comment, as the debate is apparently finished.

[Bill Brown]

For what it's worth....

With Malice (2013) pages 160-164
Reclaiming History (2007) pages 83-84

Both of the above books (with the corresponding page numbers) agree with the fact that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance and then, once the ambulance was speeding away, jumped on the squad car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher; exactly as I have been saying all along.

[Bill Chapman]

As I've pointed out here..... Bowley, Benavides, Scoggins and the police tapes clearly tell you that Callaway got on the police radio just as the ambulance was pulling away from the scene with the body.

It's not my concern that Weidmann doesn't get it.

What's lost in all of this is that Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before he jumped on the patrol car radio has no bearing one way or the other on Oswald's already proven guilt for the murder of J.D. Tippit.

Face it.  Callaway arrived on the scene, helped load the body into the ambulance, got on the squad car radio to report the shooting to the dispatcher and then grabbed Tippit's service revolver and went off in search of the killer.

This thread is now wide open for others, if any of you wish, to comment, as the debate is apparently finished.

POW!

[Bill Brown]

With Malice recounts the happenings in a minute by minute chronological order.

====================

"While the dispatcher spoke with Officer Walker, ambulance driver J.C. Butler radioed to inform police that the man shot was a Dallas police officer and that they were about to leave the murder scene with his body." -- With Malice (2013) page 161

====================

"William "Eddie" Kinsley slammed the back door of the ambulance shut and climbed into the passenger seat next to Butler.  As Butler pulled away from the crowd, he again tried to contact the dispatcher to tell him they were en route to the hospital, but this time Ted Callaway was on the radio.  "I ran over to the squad car," Callaway recalled, "I didn't know if anybody reported it or not.  So I got on the police radio and called them."

Ted Callaway: Hello, hello, hello.

J.C. Butler:  602

Callaway:  - calling from right here on Tenth Street - 500 block - this police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead.

Dispatcher:  10-4, we have the information.  The citizen using the radio will remain off the air now."

With Malice (2013) page 162

====================

"While Callaway was talking to the dispatcher, T.F. Bowley took Tippit's gun, which was lying on the hood of the squad car, and put it in the front seat, next to the used car salesman."

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear," Benavides recalled, "he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened and I said, 'Yes.'"

"Callaway reached back into the squad car and picked up Tippit's .38 caliber service revolver off the front seat.  He turned to Benavides and said, "Let's chase him," but the mechanic declined.  Callaway snapped the revolver open and T.F. Bowley - who was looking on - saw that no rounds had been fired.  Callaway tucked the gun in his belt and turned to the cab driver."

With Malice (2013) page 163

====================

Reclaiming History recounts the happenings in a minute by minute chronological order.

"Butler kneels next to Tippit's body and rolls him on his back as Kinsley pulls the stretcher cot from the back of the station wagon.  Tippit's pistol is out of it's holster, lying on the pavement near his right palm.  Ted Callaway moves the gun to the hood of the squad car, then with Scoggins and Guinyard, helps the attendants lift the body onto the stretcher.  As they do so, the first Dallas police officer to arrive at the murder scene, reserve sergeant Kenneth Croy, pulls up.  Butler and Kinsley push the cot into the back, slam the door and are off in a flash to Methodist Hospital about a mile away."

Reclaiming History (2007) page 83

====================

"Ted Callaway can hear the confusion and desperation of the police over Tippit's car radio as they struggle to locate the scene of the officer's shooting.  He lowers his big frame into the patrol car and grabs the mike, "Hello, hello, hello!" "From out here on Tenth Street," he continues, "five-hundred block.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead." "Ten-four, we [already] have the information'" dispatcher Jackson replies, exasperated.  "The citizen using the radio will remain off the air now." The last thing he needs is some gung-ho citizen tying up the airwaves."

"Ted Callaway climbs out of the squad car and spots his mechanic, Domingo Benavides. "Did you see what happened?" "Yes", Benavides says.  Callaway picks up Tippit's service revolver.  "Let's chase him," he says.  Benavides wants no part of it.  Callaway tucks the gun in his belt and turns to the cabdriver, Scoggins."

Reclaiming History (2007) page 84