Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm already beginning to grow bored with this.  I'm sure pretty much everyone else is, too.  Other than quote the relevant portion of Callaway's testimony, you haven't put anything out there.  Again, if you have a point to make, then make it.

Later tonight, I'll post a final summation.  You can do whatever you like.

Then, it'll be left for others to decide, if they feel so inclined.

"Losing interest".... again?

What happened to;

Perhaps you should consider pulling out of this debate, because you are not very good at it.

You'd like that.

Other than quote the relevant portion of Callaway's testimony, you haven't put anything out there.

All you have posted are some vague quotes, allegedly by Benavides and Scoggins (which you have failed to authenticate) and your own typical "this is what it is, because I say so" interpretation of those quotes. So what are you complaining about?

It is not my problem that you stayed away for six day, putting the conversation on hold.

Again, if you have a point to make, then make it.

I will, as soon as you answer my question. It's only to make sure that I did not misunderstand you, for goodness sake!

I've answered yours, so why are you so unwilling to answer mine?

[Bill Brown]

And yet another post goes by without you making any sort of a point.

You asked me how long I believe the ambulance was at the scene.  I answered it.  Then you ask yet another question.

We're already 8 pages in and you haven't made any point.

If you do not have a point to make, then just say so and perhaps we can move on to a different topic, regarding the Tippit case.

Up to you.

[Martin Weidmann]

And yet another post goes by without you making any sort of a point.

You asked me how long I believe the ambulance was at the scene.  I answered it.  Then you ask yet another question.

We're already 8 pages in and you haven't made any point.

If you do not have a point to make, then just say so and perhaps we can move on to a different topic, regarding the Tippit case.

Up to you.

Searching for a reason to bail out just because you don't want to answer a question?

You asked me how long I believe the ambulance was at the scene.  I answered it.  Then you ask yet another question.

What's wrong with asking a question, if it helps to improve the debate? I'm not sure if you understand this, but the purpose of a debate is to obtain a better understanding of what the other party is actually saying.

My question was just for clarification. It's the last question, on this particular subject. You have already stated that you believe that the ambulance was at the scene barely over a minute. You have also stated that the two 602 calls made by Butler (just prior and during Callaway's radio call) were to inform the dispatcher they were leaving the scene. To me that tells me that between the Code 6 call (marked in bold on the transcript) and the first 602 call (also marked in bold) there was "barely over a minute". The entire purpose for my question is to make sure I understood you correctly.

It will be my final question on this particular subject, that much I can guarantee.

Once you've answered it I will make my point.

[Bill Brown]

I say Ted Callaway helped load Tippit's body into the ambulance and then went over to the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.  Martin Weidmann says I am wrong, that Callaway got on the patrol car radio first... and then helped load the body into the ambulance.  This matters when trying to explain Callaway's timeline between hearing the shots ring out and reporting the shooting on the patrol car radio.

By the way, if Callaway got on the patrol car radio BEFORE helping to load the body into the ambulance (he didn't), then all it really does is help the false narrative that the shooting occurred earlier than 1:14/1:15.  In other words, Callaway helping with the body before getting on the police radio does not support my argument that the shooting occurred around 1:14/1:15; it would support the idea the shooting occurred a bit earlier than the official version.  Nevertheless, that is what happened.

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.

That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).

After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

Callaway said to Scoggins "Let's get the son of a bitch".  Benavides said nothing about Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before going over to Scoggins with the revolver (because this had already been done earlier and the ambulance was gone).

The police tapes clearly tell you that 602 (the Kinsley/Butler ambulance) was leaving the scene at the same time you hear Callaway making his report to the police dispatcher.  Scoggins and Benavides confirm what the police tapes tell you.

[Bill Brown]

I wonder if Weidmann believes Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance with one hand while holding Tippit's service revolver with his other hand.

[Martin Weidmann]

I wonder if Weidmann believes Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance with one hand while holding Tippit's service revolver with his other hand.

Stop wondering, your little factless fairytale will be blown sky high soon enough.

You might not know it yet, but you've already lost the argument by a landslide.

[Bill Brown]

Stop wondering, your little factless fairytale will be blown sky high soon enough.

You might not know it yet, but you've already lost the argument by a landslide.

Witnesses say all sorts of things and hardly ever get anything 100% right.

Agreed, and I will point out examples of this later.