Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Bill Brown]

We have Callaway telling us that he placed the revolver (lying on the street) onto the hood of the patrol car before they loaded Tippit's body into the ambulance.

We have Bowley telling us that after the ambulance left, he placed the revolver (lying on the hood pf the patrol car) onto the front seat of the patrol car.

We have Scoggins telling us that at the time the ambulance took Tippit away, Callaway got on the police radio ands was told to stay off the air.  Scoggins also tells us that Callaway then picked up the pistol and attempted to recruit others to help go search for the killer.

This means that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance and then got on the police radio to report the shooting.  After reporting the shooting and being told to stay off the air, Callaway grabs the revolver and goes off after the killer.

Callaway helped load the body BEFORE getting on the police radio, as I've said all along.

[Gerry Down]

I think what Martin is trying to get at is that Callaway was badgeman.

[Martin Weidmann]

I think what Martin is trying to get at is that Callaway was badgeman.

Why don't you wait for what I will present shortly, instead of making pathetic LN typical comments?

[Bill Brown]

Why don't you wait for what I will present shortly, instead of making pathetic LN typical comments?

Stop replying to the posts of others (like we both agreed) and FINALLY "present" what you have.  I'm growing bored with you.

[Martin Weidmann]

Stop replying to the posts of others (like we both agreed) and FINALLY "present" what you have.  I'm growing bored with you.

First you keep me waiting for six days and then you post a non reply to my question, telling me you are bored with me.

I couldn't care less if you are bored or not, I have more things to do than be at your beck and call.

The evidence to crush your pathetic argument is substantial and I will post it when I am ready to do so. You'll just have to wait until then, like it or not.

[Martin Weidmann]

The question being discussed is; did Ted Callaway help to load Tippit’s body in the ambulance before or after he made his call on DPD radio?

My position is that he did it after he made his call and to support that position I have posted two quotes from Ted Callaway in which he states exactly that. The first quote is from a FD 302 report by FBU agent Arthur Carter, dated 02/25/64.
Carter writes;

.......he [Callaway] observed that TIPPIT had been shot in the temple. He said TIPPIT was lying on his pistol and he, CALLAWAY, took the pistol and put it on the hood of TiPPIT's patrol car. Then he got in the patrol car and used the police radio to contact the Dallas Police Department, who advised they were aware that the police officer [TIPPIT] had been shot. He said the dispatcher told him to get off the air. About that time an ambulance came up and CALLAWAY said he and an unidentified citizen helped the ambulance driver put the officer (TIPPIT) in the ambulance.

The second quote comes from Callaway’s testimony before the Warren Commission, on 03/26/64;

Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.
By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. He did.

Bill Brown throws Callaway completely under the bus with the classic LN “he was mistaken” claim, and tells us what Benavides allegedly said;

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.
Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.
Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

Callaway said to Scoggins "Let's get the son of a bitch".
Nothing about Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance (because this had already been done earlier and the ambulance was gone).

Brown offers no verifiable source for what Benavides allegedly said and concludes that, just because Benavides did not mention Callaway helping to load Tippit into the ambulance, the ambulance was already gone. A “conclusion” based on something a witness allegedly did not mention is pure speculation and has no evidentiary value. Somebody's opinion is not evidence!

Brown also posts a quote from Scoggins;

Again....
Scoggins tells you that "someone" got on the radio once the ambulance left and this "someone" grabbed the service revolver.  Now who do you think that was?

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS
Read it again.

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Again, the quote lacks any verifiable source and Brown, just like he did with Benavides, makes up his own mind about what it means and fills in the blancs. And, once again, Bill Brown’s interpretation of something isn’t evidence!

Obviously, knowing Brown, if this was all the evidence there was, the result would most likely be a yes/no stalemate, but fortunately there is much more available to us that shows conclusively that Brown is wrong.

In an article written by Bill Drenas, which can be found in the Weisberg collection; the author tells us that Clayton Butler, the ambulance driver, told the HSCA in 1977 “I was on the scene one minute or less”.

That Butler’s estimate was correct is confirmed by the actual audio recording of the DPD radio, to which I have referred to earlier. When I asked Brown if he agreed that the audio recording I was talking about was indeed continuous, he replied;

I've always believed the communication was non-stop during this time.

So, let’s check what the audio recording actually tells us;

11 seconds after Bowley finished his radio call, the ambulance driven by Butler calls in a Code 5 to confirm he is on his way. 18 seconds later Butler calls in Code 6 to confirm his arrival at the location, except he was at the wrong one, on Jefferson, so 5 seconds later Butler asks the Dispatcher;

602 (ambulance)   What was that address on Jefferson?

The Dispatcher answers;

Dispatcher   501 East Tenth.

16 seconds later ambulance 602 calls Code 6 again, this time to signal the arrival at the Tippit scene.

At this point it should be noted, when I asked him how long he thought it took between the ambulance's arrival and departure from the scene, Bill Brown replied;

Barely over a minute.  Like literally 62 to 65 seconds.

And let’s not forget that one of Brown’s main points is;

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

The audio recording tells us that Callaway made his radio call a mere 47 seconds after Butler had called in the Code 6, confirming his arrival at the scene, which places it right in the middle of Bill Brown's estimate that the ambulance was “barely over a minute” at the scene. 

Brown’s claim that “The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.” is also not true.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support that claim. It is in fact something that Brown made up out of thin air. This can be said with certainty because we know what those calls by the ambulance driver Butler were actually about.

There were two occassions where Butler tried to get the dispatcher’s attention, by calling out “602”. The first one was 8 seconds before Callaway made his call. The dispatcher did not respond, so Butler tried again just after Callaway said “Hello hello hello”.

On 10/12/64 George and Patricia Nash published an article in the “New Leader”. They wrote;

“Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman. Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled “Mayday” to no avail, and went back to Tippit.

The officer lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car. Butler and Kinsley rolled him over and saw the bullet wound through Tippit’s temple. Butler told us, “I thought he was dead then. It’s not my position to say so. We got him into the ambulance and we got going as quick as possible. On the way to the hospital I finally let them know it was a policeman”.” 

In another thread, John Mytton recently posted this excerpt from a footnote in Dale Myers book, Without Malice.



In the excerpt, Myers writes; “Butler’s use of the radio to notify Dallas police that the victim was an officer”. This is exactly what Butler told George and Patricia Nash 13 years earlier.

All this justifies the conclusion that (1) Callaway did not make his radio call after the ambulance left and (2) that the ambulance driver was trying to call in that the victim was a police officer and not, as Brown claimed, that they were leaving when Callaway was on the radio.

And then there is this;

Officer Kenneth Croy testified before the Warren Commission that he was in his car, driving on Colorado and Zang when he heard Bowley’s call on the radio. He instantly drove to the scene. Since he was driving his own car he had to abide with normal traffic rules. When he got to 10th street, some two minutes later, he saw Tippit’s body being loaded into the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed
Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day
Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car
Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?
Mr. CROY. In uniform.

The first conclusion that can be drawn from this is that Tippit was not loaded into the ambulance before Croy got there. The audio tapes tell us that Callaway's call took place 1 minute and 12 seconds after Bowley's call. If Tippit had been loaded into the ambulance before Callaway’s call, as Bill Brown foolishly claims, Croy wouldn’t have been there to witness it.

The second conclusion is that Callaway would not have had a reason for making his call if he had just helped load Tippit in the ambulance witnessed by an uniformed police man.

Whether Bill Brown likes it or not (and he probably won't), the evidence is conclusive that Callaway first made his radio call and then helped to load Tippit into the ambulance.

[Bill Brown]

At 1:18:38, Butler (ambulance 602) reports on the police radio that they are en route.

At 1:18:59, the ambulance (602) reports to the police dispatcher that they have arrived at the scene.

William Scoggins, after finally getting through to his dispatcher on the cabbie radio, got out of his cab and went over to the scene to see if he could help Butler and Kinsley.

Kinsley and Butler took the stretcher out of the ambulance and rolled Tippit's body over (Tippit was lying on his belly).  Once the body was rolled over, Callaway picked up the service revolver (which was underneath the body) and placed it on the hood of the patrol car.  Then, Callaway helped Kinsley place the body onto the stretcher.  Callaway, Kinsley and a couple others then loaded the stretcher into the ambulance.

Then, this:

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher calling out for Officer Roy Walker, 85)

J.C. Butler:  "602"  (this is the ambulance driver, Butler, calling in trying to get hold of the dispatcher)

Dispatcher:  "85"  (this is the dispatcher still trying to reach Walker)

Roy Walker:  "85"  (this is Walker replying to the dispatcher, who was calling out for him)

Dispatcher:  "Suspect running west on Jefferson, the location."  (this is the dispatcher telling Walker where the suspect was last seen)

Walker:  "10-4"  (this is Walker acknowledging that he received that information from the dispatcher)


While the above was going on between the dispatcher and Walker ...... J.C. Butler (ambulance driver, 602) radioed in to let the police dispatcher know that the shooting victim was a police officer. 

Around 1:19:45 to 1:19:55, Officer Kenneth Croy arrived on the scene still in uniform but in an unmarked car (he was in his personal vehicle).  Croy arrived in time to see them loading the body into the ambulance.

The ambulance was loaded and Butler & Kinsley began to drive from the scene.  As they pulled away, Butler got on the radio to inform the police dispatcher that the were en route to the hospital.  However, Butler could not get through because it was at this time that Callaway was on the patrol car radio reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher:

Callaway: "Hello. Hello. Hello."  (Callaway calling out for the police dispatcher)

Butler:  "602"  (ambulance driver Butler, 602, trying to call for the dispatcher)

Callaway:  "Calling from right here on Tenth Street, 500 block, this police officer's just shot, I think he's dead."

Dispatcher:  "10-4.  We have the information.  The citizen using the radio will remain off the radio now."

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS


Callaway has not noticed Croy at the scene.  Croy was in uniform but not in a police car.

"The first thing I did was get hold of a witness." -- Kenneth Croy

Croy turned over two witnesses to officers who would eventually arrive at the scene.  Based on his description, Croy's two witnesses were Jimmy Burt and Helen Markham.

While Callaway was on the police radio, T.F. Bowley grabbed the service revolver from the hood and placed it inside the patrol car, onto the front seat.

Benavides returned to the scene at this time (he originally left the scene, only to return moments later).

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear, he (Callaway) jumped out and ran around and asked me did I see what happened and I said 'Yes'".  -- Domingo Benavides

This is when Callaway grabbed the revolver from the front seat and said to Benavides "let's chase him".

Benavides said no, he did not wish to go in search of the killer.  This is when Callaway went over to Scoggins, still with the revolver, and recruited Scoggins to go in search of the killer.

T.F. Bowley, having just placed the revolver into the front seat while Callaway was on the police radio, saw Callaway open the cylinder of the revolver to make sure it was loaded.  Bowley saw that the revolver was fully loaded.

Croy and Callaway never saw each other.  Otherwise, the scenario where Callaway left with Tippit's revolver would not have played out.


All of this is covered, in detail, in With Malice by Dale Myers.  All anyone really has to do is buy the book and read it, especially pages 160-164 in the updated 2013 edition.