Oswald: No power lunch

[Jack Nessan]

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

===============================

This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

-------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

[Martin Weidmann]

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

===============================

This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

-------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Really?

Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."

As far as Harkness is concerned, you might be right, because he wasn't the one to stop Adams and Styles. At 12:36, he was in fact making a radio call about a witness who said the shots were fired from a window of the TSBD.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others.

Then why don't you explain in detail how they corroborate eachother instead of making a vague (and highly incorrect) statement that tells me nothing

Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later.

Your personal opinion isn't evidence. Nor is it relevant. And no, it didn't turn out they never left the 4th floor until 12:35. There is no way the women can leave the building at the back, let alone the 4th floor, at 12:35 and be at the front entrance of the building at 12:36, in time for Styles to reenter the building just before it was sealed off.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

It doesn't matter how late the back of the building was sealed off, at least not where it concerns Adams and Styles. After the police man told them (in the railway yard) to return to the building, they went to the front entrance, where Styles entered the building without being stopped. When Adams tried to enter, a couple of minutes later, she was stopped as the building was sealed off by then.

So, here's a simple question for you.

After Adams and Styles came down the stairs, they left the building at the loading dock at the back, by using the only stairs available there. They then ran towards the railway yard (which mean running along just about the whole north side of the building. When they got to the railway yard, a police man stopped them and told them to go back. They then ran along the entire side of the building to the dead end street in front of the TSBD. There they turned left and ran all the way to the other side of the building where the main entrance is. They arrived there at no later than 12:36 or 12:37, because when Styles entered the building it was not yet sealed off.

If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?

[John Mytton]

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says that after coming down from the fourth floor she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.





JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.





JohnM

And there he is again, the guy who says he doesn't want to debate me, is desperately trying to debate me again. Go figure!

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.

And we should, of course, ignore completely that the preponderance of actual facts (now there's a novel concept for you!) show it was physically impossible for Adams (and Styles) to see Shelley and Lovelady (who both didn't see the women) less than a minute before Styles reentered the building at the front entrance, after walking around three sides of the building.

Biased propagandists peddle and perpetuate lies they have blindly accepted. Serious people looking at this try to determine what is logical, physically possible and fits the rest of the known facts..... 

And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.

For anybody who doesn't follow what goes on on this forum; what Johnny is trying to do here is using misrepresentation of the facts in a vain attempt to discredit/attack the messenger. So all you really need to do is ask yourself why he is attacking the messenger instead of actually debating the known facts. The answer will tell you all you need to know!

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has claimed or posted that police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time. I do, however, remember a man named Bowles, who happened to be in charge of the DPD dispatchers, telling the HSCA that the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are not real time, which by itself calls into question the credibility of the DPD recordings/transcripts. Does that help?

The one thing that should really be considered is the fact that in his entire post John Mytton does not address in detail any of the more than obvious problems with the official narrative re Victoria Adams. Just like he always does, he stays on the surface of the official narrative, which tells me that he clearly understands that as soon as he starts digging deeper his favorite fairytale starts falling apart.

Kinda strange, don't you think? If somebody is so convinced that his version of events is the truth, then why is he so afraid to enter into a discussion about it, to the extent that he is even running from answering simple questions. Says it all, really....

Let's see if Johnny can now answer the two questions he has been running from for days;

Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?

Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after.  Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy).  However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.   
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.  Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.   

Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room.  After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.

Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill.  Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.

Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.

Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot.  About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too.  Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).

[Martin Weidmann]

Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after.  Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy).  However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.   
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.  Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.   

Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room.  After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.

Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill.  Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.

Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.

Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot.  About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too.  Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.

This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.

[John Mytton]

I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.

Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:

1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.

Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
 
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed  by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.

Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
 

and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40

Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.


Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.


https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

JohnM