Oswald: No power lunch

[Martin Weidmann]

Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.


Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.


https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

JohnM

None of this is of any significance. Sandra Styles and Victoria Adams arrived together at the front entrance. Styles went inside straight away and wasn't stopped, which means she entered prior to the building being sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37)

Adams testified;

Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?
Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---
Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

The fact that Adams did not enter the building straight away tells you nothing about the time she and Styles arrived at the front of the building.

Adams simply decided to stay outside longer than Styles. The mere fact that Styles entered the building without being stopped not only justifies the conclusion that the girls arrived at the front entrance before it was sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37) but also completely destroys your fake suggestion that Adams didn't arrive at the front entrance before 12:40.

Stop showing us just how little you know about the actual facts of this case! Your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible are going nowhere.

Btw, why am I not surprised that you ignored my previous post (which completely destroyed your arguments) and moved on to another, without - still - not answering my questions. Your weakness is getting more and more exposed!

This superficial stuff is really the "best" you've got, isn't it.... 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.

This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.

Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.

[Martin Weidmann]

Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.

Rather than just making that claim, why don't you just show us?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Rather than just making that claim, why don't you just show us?

Ok i had a closer look.
My theory needs Adams/Styles to reach the 2nd floor at say 58 sec to 63 sec, ie 10-15 sec after Oswald (who took say 48 sec). Longer than 15 sec wouldnt work, koz by then Oswald would have already decided whether to use the back stairs or the front stairs & he would have left that area. Less than 10 sec wouldnt work, koz A/S would have seen Oswald walking from one leg of the stairs to the other leg of the stairs, on their 4th floor.

My theory needs A/S to enter the 1st floor stock room at say 68 sec to 73 sec, say 0-10 sec before Truly/Baker enter the stock room (at say 68 sec to 83 sec). If T/B entered before A/S then T/B would have been more likely to have seen A/S walking from the stairs to the Houston door. If A/S entered more than 10 sec before T/B then Oswald would have had time to decide what to do & to use the back stairs to get to the 1st floor & would have met T/S on the 1st floor rather than on the 2nd floor. Or, if Oswald had decided to use the front stairs then he would have already headed off that way (either throo the 2nd floor office, or along the corridor), & the lunchroom encounter with Baker would not have happened.

My theory has a tight timeline, but it works if T/B took longer to reach the 2nd floor than the usual estimate of i think 75 sec after the shots. 88 sec to 108 sec works better for my theory.

[Martin Weidmann]

Ok i had a closer look.
My theory needs Adams/Styles to reach the 2nd floor at say 58 sec to 63 sec, ie 10-15 sec after Oswald (who took say 48 sec). Longer than 15 sec wouldnt work, koz by then Oswald would have already decided whether to use the back stairs or the front stairs & he would have left that area. Less than 10 sec wouldnt work, koz A/S would have seen Oswald walking from one leg of the stairs to the other leg of the stairs, on their 4th floor.

My theory needs A/S to enter the 1st floor stock room at say 68 sec to 73 sec, say 0-10 sec before Truly/Baker enter the stock room (at say 68 sec to 83 sec). If T/B entered before A/S then T/B would have been more likely to have seen A/S walking from the stairs to the Houston door. If A/S entered more than 10 sec before T/S then Oswald would have had time to decide what to do & to use the back stairs to get to the 1st floor & would have met T/S on the 1st floor rather than on the 2nd floor. Or, if Oswald had decided to use the front stairs then he would have already headed off that way (either throo the 2nd floor office, or along the corridor), & the lunchroom encounter with Baker would not have happened.

My theory has a tight timeline, but it works if T/B took longer to reach the 2nd floor than the usual estimate of i think 75 sec after the shots. 88 sec to 108 sec works better for my theory.

That's a lot of "If"s! I didn't ask you what your theory requires. I asked you to show us (i.e. provide some proof) that Truly and Baker did not enter the first floor storeroom any sooner than between 75 and 85 seconds.

Btw, you develop a theory based on known facts. You don't concoct a theory and then start looking for what it requires to make it work.

In this instance, the Malcom Couch film, taken just 15 to 20 seconds after the last shot, shows Officer Baker parking his motorbike and running toward the entrance of the TSBD.

Do you really believe, once inside, it took him and Truly between 48 and 63 seconds to run to the back of the building?

[Jack Nessan]

Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested. The Stroud document looses all credibility. The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.

[Martin Weidmann]

Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested. The Stroud document looses all credibility. The Stroud document contained two pieces of info. Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order. It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.

Given the WC established the fact Adams and Styles left the fourth floor considerably later than they suggested.

So, what you are really saying here is that independently thinking and drawing logical conclusions is not for you and you just accept blindly whatever the WC said.

The WC "established" a hell of a lot, but mainly only what the predetermined narrative required and more than often without any supporting evidence. Where Adams is concerned they just made a claim for which there is no supporting evidence and used a minor part of Adams' testimony to discredit her. They failed to call her to the reconstruction and buried the Stroud letter without ever looking into it. That should tell you enough about the quality and depth of their "investigation".

They basically said something like; ignore all the other evidence. Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. We know both men were not there until around 12:35, so Adams (and Styles) were not on the stairs when Oswald came down and btw never mind that we can't prove at all that Oswald, or indeed anybody else, came down the stairs, but that's just a minor detail, right?

The Stroud document looses all credibility

The Stroud letter was an official communication from the office of a United States Attorney to the General Counsel of a Presidential Commission. To just dismiss it and say it has no credibility is just silly.

Garner said she saw Truly and Baker ascend the stairs, and Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor. She probably saw both events but places them in the wrong order.

Pure selfserving speculation and nothing more than wishful thinking. Dorothy Garner's comments to Martha Stroud are just as inconvenient for you as they were for the Warren Commission. Rather than dealing with it honestly, you simply dismiss it.

It is understandable that the WC would place no importance in the document given they established approximate times to Styles and Adams movements by establishing known times and locations to their encounters with officers and radio transmissions, and testimonies of the movements of fellow employees.

Complete nonsense. The WC established nothing of the kind. Nowhere in the report do they give approximate times for the movements of Styles and Adams. They did not even include Adams in the reconstruction and ignored Styles completely.

The bottom line is that everything Adams said in her testimony can be corroborated, except for - go figure - the location where she allegedly saw Shelley and Lovelady. My timeline shows that the only location where she could have seen, and probably did see, Shelley and Lovelady was at the railway yard, where she passed both men as she was walking to the front of the building. It is a physical impossibility for her to have seen Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD (at 12:35, when the men returned to the building) and still be at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37. And for what it's worth, when Victoria Adams was asked by Barry Ernest about the alleged encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first she instantly denied having said that in her testimony.

The obvious fact is staring you in the face. It can only be missed by somebody who doesn't want to see!

Earlier I asked you a simple question, to which you never replied, so here it is again;

After Adams and Styles came down the stairs, they left the building at the loading dock at the back, by using the only stairs available there. They then ran towards the railway yard (which mean running along just about the whole north side of the building. When they got to the railway yard, a police man stopped them and told them to go back. They then ran along the entire side of the building to the dead end street in front of the TSBD. There they turned left and ran all the way to the other side of the building where the main entrance is. They arrived there at no later than 12:36 or 12:37, because when Styles entered the building it was not yet sealed off.

If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?

Why don't you try to answer it this time?