Et tu, Bonnie?

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Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #350 on: April 20, 2021, 05:36:14 PM »
So other TSBD employees left their fingerprints on these boxes?  Do tell.

Who said anything about other TSBD employees? What about, for example, all the police officers that were in or near the S/N?

Are you really trying to tell us that in a warehouse filled with boxes and lots of staff handling them, Oswald's fingerprints were somehow the only prints on those boxes? Really?

Here's a reality check; on 4 boxes there were 25 prints found that were clear enough to make identification matches. In addition there were more prints that were too fragmented for identification. Out if all these prints only 1 right index fingerprint and 1 left palmprint were identified as Oswald's. Or did Latona, Mandella and Wittmus Lie?   

« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 07:36:45 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #351 on: April 20, 2021, 06:36:23 PM »
I don't believe there is any way to know for certain since BRW was not tracking his movements with scientific precision.  He is mostly making an estimate of the time as you see in many instances in this case.  A pedantic analysis of his various statements are somewhat insightful but can never answer the question when he himself didn't really know.  Most people don't go around noting the exact time of every mundane event in their life down to the minute.

I agree,
BRW's estimation of how long he spent on the 6th floor varies wildly.
He starts off by lying about not being on the 6th floor (or is he telling the truth?)
Once he admits he was on the 6th he gives the following estimations, in various statements, for how long he was up there - 3, 5, 10, 12, 15, 20 minutes. There is a pattern to these estimations - the more he is questioned, the longer he was up there.
Obviously, it isn't just a case of looking at what BRW has to say, there are other witnesses whose testimonies shed light on how long BRW was on the 6th floor.
But you know that already.

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What's important is that BRW never suggested that he heard or saw anything unusual.

What's important is that he lied about going up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman (or did he lie about having his lunch alone on the 6th floor?)
What's more important is that after he has corrected his first statement, Jarman and Norman continue supporting the initial lie (if it was a lie) that BRW goes up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman. When it comes time for the WC hearing everyone seems to have got their stories straight. All now agree BRW went up to the 6th on his own then joined Jarman/Norman later.

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Any narrative that has him encountering a hit team on the 6th floor and being allowed to go about his business perhaps raising the alarm is absurd.  Instead he goes to the window just below where he knows this is going to happen and puts himself at further risk?  Not plausible.

Agreed.
How can BRW be allowed to just wander off. The assassin must "neutralise" him in some way - tying him up or even killing him. He can't set him free hoping he won't raise the alarm just because he "promised".
My interpretation of various statements has BRW on the 6th floor less than five minutes before the arrival of the motorcade and there is some evidence he was actually in the SN having his lunch.
In this scenario 3 possibilities exists:

The assassin(s) have yet to arrive on the 6th floor so BRW is alone until he goes down to the 5th.
The assassin(s) are on the 6th floor but BRW is unaware of it.
BRW is aware someone is on the 6th when he goes down to the 5th.

All three scenarios are problematic in different ways.
This is where the historic piece of chicken comes into it. For his lunch BRW has a piece of chicken, two slices of bread, a bag of Fritos and a bottle of soda pop. He strips some off the chicken and makes a chicken sandwich, has his Fritos and pop, saving the big lump of chicken remaining on the bone to finish off. Remember, he's been working hard all morning and will be doing the same in the afternoon and his piece of chicken is his main nourishment for the day. So, what are the chances of him just wandering off, leaving the main part of his lunch behind? Surely, the partially eaten piece of chicken indicates BRW was interrupted before he got to his chicken and left in a hurry.
If he was confronted by a stranger/stranger with a rifle/familiar face with a rifle Williams would surely have raised the alarm - he certainly wouldn't have gone down a floor to carry on watching the motorcade.
However, if he was confronted by a familiar face, without a rifle, who just told him to f%&k off immediately, there would be no reason to flee or panic. But when the shots started ringing out from directly above them BRW puts two and two together. He has just seen the assassin, what should he do?









Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #352 on: April 20, 2021, 06:41:34 PM »
How can BRW be allowed to just wander off. The assassin must "neutralise" him in some way - tying him up or even killing him. He can't set him free hoping he won't raise the alarm just because he "promised".
(...)
If he was confronted by a stranger/stranger with a rifle/familiar face with a rifle Williams would surely have raised the alarm - he certainly wouldn't have gone down a floor to carry on watching the motorcade.

There's a simple solution here, Mr O'Meara: Mr Williams encounters credentials-flashing men who tell him they are part of Presidential security and he must leave the floor.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #353 on: April 20, 2021, 06:46:52 PM »
There's a simple solution here, Mr O'Meara: Mr Williams encounters credentials-flashing men who tell him they are part of Presidential security and he must leave the floor.

It's not a solution Alan, just another possibility.
How long have these "credential flashing men" been on the 6th floor?
They have either arrived with less than 5 minutes to go before the arrival of the motorcade (not very professional) or they've been hiding behind some boxes hoping BRW would leave then finally decided they'd had enough.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #354 on: April 20, 2021, 07:33:02 PM »
There's a simple solution here, Mr O'Meara: Mr Williams encounters credentials-flashing men who tell him they are part of Presidential security and he must leave the floor.

And they count on him to remain forever quiet and even lie about this encounter?  Even after he becomes aware that they were involved in the assassination.  Not plausible.  Imagine the plan.  They go to all this time and trouble to frame Oswald, they are seen moments before the assassination on the 6th floor and/or SN, and they allow BRW to walk away hoping he doesn't raise an alarm or blow the Oswald frame up by doing the logical thing - just telling the truth.  Let me guess.  You have another story to explain why BRW never reveals this encounter.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #355 on: April 20, 2021, 07:55:53 PM »
Who said anything about other TSBD employees? What about, for example, all the police officers that were in or near the S/N?

Are you really trying to tell us that in a warehouse filled with boxes and lots of staff handling them, Oswald's fingerprints were somehow the only prints on those boxes? Really?

Here's a reality check; on 4 boxes there were 25 prints found that were clear enough to make identification matches. In addition there were more prints that were too fragmented for identification. Out if all these prints only 1 right index fingerprint and 1 left palmprint were identified as Oswald's. Or did Latona, Mandella and Wittmus Lie?

You are all over the place.  Again, Oswald was the only TSBD employee whose prints were identified as being on the SN boxes.  That's plural as in multiple different SN boxes with Oswald's prints.  If, as you suggest, these boxes had lots of TSBD "staff" handling them then we would expect to find the prints of other TSBD employees.  That would marginally support your claim that there was nothing incriminatory about Oswald's prints being on the SN boxes because he worked there.  But no other TSBD left identifiable prints on those boxes.   Just Oswald.  What bad luck for him!  I'm not sure what you are babbling about with the police lying or implying that if someone leaves only one fingerprint or palmprint that somehow makes the identification questionable.  If Oswald left an identifiable print - even a single fingerprint on a box - that means he touched it.  Many of the prints found on these boxes were linked to the DPD or FBI investigators and eliminated from any connection to the assassination. 

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #356 on: April 20, 2021, 07:57:56 PM »
It's not a solution Alan, just another possibility.
How long have these "credential flashing men" been on the 6th floor?
They have either arrived with less than 5 minutes to go before the arrival of the motorcade (not very professional) or they've been hiding behind some boxes hoping BRW would leave then finally decided they'd had enough.

One of the most interesting details in Mr Williams' testimony is this------------

MR. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Why did nobody go up to six to watch the motorcade from that excellent vantage point? Most curious!

I would NOT assume that Mr Williams was the only employee to innocently go back up on six and encounter men posing as SS. The floor would have been commandeered well before the motorcade arrived, and a method for keeping employees off the floor put in place. These people would not have trusted to luck.

Ms Mary Hall saw a key moment in all this: "she saw a white male, wearing a hat, apparently looking for something among boxes... a few minutes later they all went to have lunch and watch the President's motorcade".

Maybe the men on the sixth floor were let into the building before working hours that morning and hid up on seven; maybe they arrived in the building around noon and went up. We'll likely never know, and it doesn't greatly matter.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 08:02:45 PM by Alan Ford »