Et tu, Bonnie?

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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #357 on: April 20, 2021, 08:01:12 PM »
And they count on him to remain forever quiet and even lie about this encounter?  Even after he becomes aware that they were involved in the assassination.  Not plausible.  Imagine the plan.  They go to all this time and trouble to frame Oswald,

Who says that framing Mr Oswald as the gunman was their aim?

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they are seen moments before the assassination on the 6th floor and/or SN, and they allow BRW to walk away hoping he doesn't raise an alarm or blow the Oswald frame up by doing the logical thing - just telling the truth.  Let me guess.  You have another story to explain why BRW never reveals this encounter.

Yes-----------he liked being alive.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #358 on: April 20, 2021, 08:21:02 PM »
You are all over the place.  Again, Oswald was the only TSBD employee whose prints were identified as being on the SN boxes.  That's plural as in multiple different SN boxes with Oswald's prints.  If, as you suggest, these boxes had lots of TSBD "staff" handling them then we would expect to find the prints of other TSBD employees.  That would marginally support your claim that there was nothing incriminatory about Oswald's prints being on the SN boxes because he worked there.  But no other TSBD left identifiable prints on those boxes.   Just Oswald.  What bad luck for him!  I'm not sure what you are babbling about with the police lying or implying that if someone leaves only one fingerprint or palmprint that somehow makes the identification questionable.  If Oswald left an identifiable print - even a single fingerprint on a box - that means he touched it.  Many of the prints found on these boxes were linked to the DPD or FBI investigators and eliminated from any connection to the assassination.


Many of the prints found on these boxes were linked to the DPD or FBI investigators and eliminated from any connection to the assassination. Really?

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like that box admitted as 653.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
Mr. EISENBERG. How many identifiable prints did you find on this carton?
Mr. LATONA. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on Commission Exhibit 653.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, identifiable prints?
Mr. LATONA. Identifiable prints.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person?
Mr. LATONA. I did not.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have 654 marked, Box C, Mr. Chairman? Did you also examine Box C?
Mr. LATONA. Box C, yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 654?
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit 654.
(Commission Exhibit No. 654 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any latent identifiable prints on 654?
Mr. LATONA. I found two fingerprints and one palmprint.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify them as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr. LATONA. I did not identify them.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you attempt to identify them with Lee Harvey Oswald's known prints?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; and they are not Lee Harvey Oswald's print.

Again, Oswald was the only TSBD employee whose prints were identified as being on the SN boxes.  That's plural as in multiple different SN boxes with Oswald's prints.

Stop lying, "Richard"!

Mr. EISENBERG. So you found 13 identifiable prints, Mr. Latona. Were you able to identify any of these prints as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr. LATONA. We were able to identify one fingerprint and one palmprint.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose prints were they?
Mr. LATONA. The fingerprint was identified as Harvey Lee Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the palm?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint was identified also as Harvey Lee Oswald.

On all the boxes they found one fingerprint and one palmprint belonging to Oswald. That's the only print they were looking for. None of the other prints belonged to Oswald and they simply did not bother to identify them
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 08:22:56 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #359 on: April 20, 2021, 08:26:43 PM »
Who says that framing Mr Oswald as the gunman was their aim?



You, for example.  Since you think Oswald was innocent and framed.  What else would this sinister squad be doing on the 6th floor forcing people to leave?  And they don't care that BRW has seen them for whatever purpose you believe that they were there for?  Is it fair to say that in this fantasy, that these folks would not want their presence on the 6th floor reported by BRW because they were in the commission of some criminal act in connection with the assassination?  And by allowing him to leave they risked his reporting their presence either before or after the event.  Which seems like the most likely thing for him to have done had this really happened.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #360 on: April 20, 2021, 08:29:04 PM »
One of the most interesting details in Mr Williams' testimony is this------------

MR. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Why did nobody go up to six to watch the motorcade from that excellent vantage point? Most curious!

I would NOT assume that Mr Williams was the only employee to innocently go back up on six and encounter men posing as SS. The floor would have been commandeered well before the motorcade arrived, and a method for keeping employees off the floor put in place. These people would not have trusted to luck.

Ms Mary Hall saw a key moment in all this: "she saw a white male, wearing a hat, apparently looking for something among boxes... a few minutes later they all went to have lunch and watch the President's motorcade".

Maybe the men on the sixth floor were let into the building before working hours that morning and hid up on seven; maybe they arrived in the building around noon and went up. We'll likely never know, and it doesn't greatly matter.

Dougherty was up on 6 and he never saw anything.
The same with Givens.
Williams was up there long enough to eat his sandwich, his bag of Fritos and drink his pop. It seems clear from various WC testimonies he was up on 6 for quite some time before coming down to join Jarman and Norman.
Nobody saw this team arrive or leave.
It's almost as if there's no support for such a suggestion.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #361 on: April 20, 2021, 09:01:03 PM »

Many of the prints found on these boxes were linked to the DPD or FBI investigators and eliminated from any connection to the assassination. Really?

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like that box admitted as 653.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
Mr. EISENBERG. How many identifiable prints did you find on this carton?
Mr. LATONA. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on Commission Exhibit 653.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, identifiable prints?
Mr. LATONA. Identifiable prints.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person?
Mr. LATONA. I did not.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have 654 marked, Box C, Mr. Chairman? Did you also examine Box C?
Mr. LATONA. Box C, yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have that admitted as 654?
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit 654.
(Commission Exhibit No. 654 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any latent identifiable prints on 654?
Mr. LATONA. I found two fingerprints and one palmprint.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify them as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr. LATONA. I did not identify them.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you attempt to identify them with Lee Harvey Oswald's known prints?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; and they are not Lee Harvey Oswald's print.

Again, Oswald was the only TSBD employee whose prints were identified as being on the SN boxes.  That's plural as in multiple different SN boxes with Oswald's prints.

Stop lying, "Richard"!

Mr. EISENBERG. So you found 13 identifiable prints, Mr. Latona. Were you able to identify any of these prints as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr. LATONA. We were able to identify one fingerprint and one palmprint.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose prints were they?
Mr. LATONA. The fingerprint was identified as Harvey Lee Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the palm?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint was identified also as Harvey Lee Oswald.

On all the boxes they found one fingerprint and one palmprint belonging to Oswald. That's the only print they were looking for. None of the other prints belonged to Oswald and they simply did not bother to identify them

This is real simple.  Focus.  Oswald was the only TSBD who left identifiable prints on the TSBD boxes.  According to Commission Exhibit 3131 there were 25 identifiable prints found on the four boxes exclusive of Oswald's prints.  24 of these prints were matched to Studebaker or Forest Lucy.  None matched the TSBD employees who were printed including all those who Truly indicated would come into contact with book cartons as part of their duties.

Per McAdams:
On the 4 boxes a total of 25 prints were found that was clear enough to make identification matches. Other possible prints were also found but were too fragmentary to be of value for identification purposes. On Box A there were 9 identifiable fingerprints and 4 identifiable palmprints. Of these, 1 right index fingerprint and 1 left palmprint were identified as Oswald's. These identifications were made by Sebastian F. Latona of the FBI and agreed to by Arthur Mandella, fingerprint expert with the New York City Police Department and Ronald G. Wittmus, another FBI fingerprint expert. All of the remaining fingerprints and palmprints belonged to either Studebaker or Forest Lucy an FBI Clerk.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #362 on: April 20, 2021, 09:11:58 PM »
This is real simple.  Focus.  Oswald was the only TSBD who left identifiable prints on the TSBD boxes.  According to Commission Exhibit 3131 there were 25 identifiable prints found on the four boxes exclusive of Oswald's prints.  24 of these prints were matched to Studebaker or Forest Lucy.  None matched the TSBD employees who were printed including all those who Truly indicated would come into contact with book cartons as part of their duties.

Per McAdams:
On the 4 boxes a total of 25 prints were found that was clear enough to make identification matches. Other possible prints were also found but were too fragmentary to be of value for identification purposes. On Box A there were 9 identifiable fingerprints and 4 identifiable palmprints. Of these, 1 right index fingerprint and 1 left palmprint were identified as Oswald's. These identifications were made by Sebastian F. Latona of the FBI and agreed to by Arthur Mandella, fingerprint expert with the New York City Police Department and Ronald G. Wittmus, another FBI fingerprint expert. All of the remaining fingerprints and palmprints belonged to either Studebaker or Forest Lucy an FBI Clerk.

Oswald was the only TSBD who left identifiable prints on the TSBD boxes.

BS.. You really should read the testimony of Latona better. Here is part of it again;

Mr. LATONA. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on Commission Exhibit 653.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, identifiable prints?
Mr. LATONA. Identifiable prints.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person?
Mr. LATONA. I did not.

There were in fact plenty of identifiable prints that were not linked to any person, simply because the only prints they were interested in were those of Oswald's.

Regardless of what McAdams says, Latona did not say anything about the other prints being linked to Studebaker.

Btw CE 3131 is correspondence in September 1964, when the WC report was already in print for it's release to Johnson on the 24th. At that point in time they could write whatever they want. I attach no value whatsoever to this correspondence.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 09:24:53 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #363 on: April 20, 2021, 09:24:35 PM »
Oswald was the only TSBD who left identifiable prints on the TSBD boxes.

BS.. You really should read the testimony of Latona better. Here is part of it again;

Mr. LATONA. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on Commission Exhibit 653.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, identifiable prints?
Mr. LATONA. Identifiable prints.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person?
Mr. LATONA. I did not.

There were in fact plenty of identifiable prints that were not linked to any person, simply because the only prints they were interested in were those of Oswald's.

Regardless of what McAdams says, Latona did not say anything about the other prints being linked to Studebaker.

I'm not sure what you are taking issue with.  It is simply a fact that Oswald was the only TSBD employee who left identifiable prints on the boxes.  Do you have the name of another TSBD employee who left their prints on the cartons?  According to the FBI report listed as Commission Exhibit 3131 there were 25 identifiable prints on the four boxes.  24 of those were linked to the two investigators.  The FBI took the prints of the TSBD employees who came into contact with the book cartons.  None of those matched any of the identifiable prints on the SN boxes. Only Oswald. 

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3131.pdf