Tippit Shooting, 1:15

[Walt Cakebread]

The revolver in the vIdeo is NOT  The old .38 caliber Victory model, that used the older and less powerful .38 cailber bullet.   The S&W revolver being discussed is the  old WW1 model.     That old S&W used a larger diameter but shorter length cartridge.   The dimensions shown in the top row are....

Projectile diameter---- .359"     Neck diameter--- .386"   Base diameter---.386"   Rim diameter---  .433"    Case length---  0.78"   Cartridge length--- 1.20"

The dimensions for the new S&W Special cartridge are .......
Projectile diameter---- .357"     Neck diameter--- .379"   Base diameter---.379"   Rim diameter---  .440"    Case length---  1.155"  Cartridge length--- 1.98"

It's obvious that the old "Victory" model would require chamber modification to allow the longer "Special" cartridge to be used in the old gun.   However the chamber bore (.388")was actually too large for the smaller diameter ( .379") Special cartridge cartridge.   This oversize chamber caused the powerful Special cartridge to balloon ( and often split) which made the removal of the spent shells difficult.   Just as Cunningham pointed out when he demonstrated the removal of the spent cartridges for the S&W Victory revolver in evidence.

So in summary....The spent shells are al removed at the same time from the S&W revolver....     But the witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while removing ONE- SHELL - AT - A - TIME.   And the spent shells were found widely scattered  which verifies the witnesses observations.   

The killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson revolver.......

I would like to know if other old revolvers could be modified to use the S&W Special cartridge......For example could an old .38 caliber Colt be modified to use the 38 Special cartridge?  Perhaps some reader has this information and could post it.

[John Mytton]

False dilemma fallacy.  Both things are unfair lineups.

Bully for you.  But you've shown in abundance how easily you are manipulated by police and prosecutor rhetoric.

False dilemma fallacy.  Both things are unfair lineups.

This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.

Bully for you.

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

But you've shown in abundance how easily you are manipulated by police and prosecutor rhetoric.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.



JohnM

[Walt Cakebread]

This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not very realistic, Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon didn't look like he could be intimidated.

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.



JohnM

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon,

"When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald"  
 Sir, You will need to extract your head....and that should enable you to see that the police railroaded Lee Oswald....   One of the major lies that they spread was that they had found the arch villain's ( Lee Oswald ) prints on the rifle. Henry Wade told reporters " Oh, By the way,....Did I mention that we have found his prints on the gun.?"     When in FACT no identifiable prints had been found on the gun.

The police also used rigged Line ups to railroad their patsy.....

[Charles Collins]

You don't know what gun killed Tippit.

But I'm curious.  What is your source for the claim that Seaport Traders did the rechambering of CE 143?

I am searching for the source. If I find it I will post it.

The point I was making was to dispute Walt's apparent miss-association of the "Victory" model name exclusively with the .38 S&W caliber. This is what wikipedia has to say:

The Victory Model was used by United States forces during World War II, being chambered in the well-known and popular .38 Special cartridge. The Victory Model was a standard-issue sidearm for United States Navy and Marine Corps aircrews, and was also used by security guards at factories and defense installations throughout the United States during the war.

The S&W M&P military revolvers produced from 1942 to 1944 had serial numbers with a "V" prefix, and were known as the Smith & Wesson Victory Model. It is noteworthy that early Victory Models did not always have the V prefix. During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber already in use in the Enfield No 2 Mk I Revolver and the Webley Mk IV Revolver. Most Victory Models sent to Britain were fitted with 4-inch or 5-inch barrels, although a few early versions had 6-inch barrels.

[John Iacoletti]

This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc...

Strawman fallacy.  I didn't say there will never ever ever be a fair lineup.  These lineups were biased and unfair.

- Fillers should generally resemble each other and the suspect
- Fillers and the suspect should be dressed alike
- Fillers should resemble the witness's pre-lineup description of the suspect
- There should be a minimum of 5 fillers
- The person administering the lineup should not know who the suspect is
- If the suspect has an unusual or unique feature that would make him stand out then it should be concealed, or the fillers should have the same thing artificially added
- Witnesses should not attend lineups together
- The witness should not be visible to the suspect or fillers
- The suspect's position in each lineup should be randomly placed
- Witnesses should be told that the suspect may or may not be in the lineup
- Witnesses should be asked how certain they are of the identification
- Witnesses should not have been biased by media reports prior to the lineup
- Witnesses shouldn't be pressured to make a selection

https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html

So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.

"Didn't look like he could be intimidated".  There's a scientific analysis for you.   

But what does being intimidated have to do with anything?

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

Who ever said that anyone was wanting to "send a man wrongfully to his death"?

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald

"Major" as defined as something other than what the police actually did.

then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own

Considering?  Wasn't that what they were supposedly trying to investigate with these rigged lineups?

and was found with the weapon,

LOL

then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.

Exactly.  They railroaded him, because they decided first that he killed a cop, and then rigged lineups to give them the answer that they wanted.

[Bill Chapman]

Strawman fallacy.  I didn't say there will never ever ever be a fair lineup.  These lineups were biased and unfair.

- Fillers should generally resemble each other and the suspect
- Fillers and the suspect should be dressed alike
- Fillers should resemble the witness's pre-lineup description of the suspect
- There should be a minimum of 5 fillers
- The person administering the lineup should not know who the suspect is
- If the suspect has an unusual or unique feature that would make him stand out then it should be concealed, or the fillers should have the same thing artificially added
- Witnesses should not attend lineups together
- The witness should not be visible to the suspect or fillers
- The suspect's position in each lineup should be randomly placed
- Witnesses should be told that the suspect may or may not be in the lineup
- Witnesses should be asked how certain they are of the identification
- Witnesses should not have been biased by media reports prior to the lineup
- Witnesses shouldn't be pressured to make a selection

https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html

"Didn't look like he could be intimidated".  There's a scientific analysis for you.   

But what does being intimidated have to do with anything?

Who ever said that anyone was wanting to "send a man wrongfully to his death"?

"Major" as defined as something other than what the police actually did.

Considering?  Wasn't that what they were supposedly trying to investigate with these rigged lineups?

LOL

Exactly.  They railroaded him, because they decided first that he killed a cop, and then rigged lineups to give them the answer that they wanted.

All fillers shall have plastic surgery to look exactly like Oswald.
No fillers shall wear a wedding ring
All fillers shall look effeminate
All fillers shall have cold dead eyes
All fillers shall have a twisted-arse walk
All fillers shall learn to mutter-- twice-- 'poor dumb cop'
All fillers shall effect the look of a loser.
All fillers shall effect a permanent smirk

And all fillers must be able to make The Divine Miss M get cold chills

PS: Once again, JudgeJohnny, thanks so much for your always-useful posts

[Walt Cakebread]

I am searching for the source. If I find it I will post it.

The point I was making was to dispute Walt's apparent miss-association of the "Victory" model name exclusively with the .38 S&W caliber. This is what wikipedia has to say:

The Victory Model was used by United States forces during World War II, being chambered in the well-known and popular .38 Special cartridge. The Victory Model was a standard-issue sidearm for United States Navy and Marine Corps aircrews, and was also used by security guards at factories and defense installations throughout the United States during the war.

The S&W M&P military revolvers produced from 1942 to 1944 had serial numbers with a "V" prefix, and were known as the Smith & Wesson Victory Model. It is noteworthy that early Victory Models did not always have the V prefix. During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber already in use in the Enfield No 2 Mk I Revolver and the Webley Mk IV Revolver. Most Victory Models sent to Britain were fitted with 4-inch or 5-inch barrels, although a few early versions had 6-inch barrels.

During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber

I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater.