JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:16:22 AM

Title: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:16:22 AM
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was near Marsalis, Beckley and Tenth Street, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's call number and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:33:32 AM
Murray Jackson doesn't call out for "78" if he's already aware that Tippit has been shot.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 05, 2019, 07:36:33 AM
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Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Interestingly, Myers doesn’t bother to mention that at the same time, Mary’s husband Frank is watching a man standing right in front of the police car getting into a gray coupe and driving off.

Quote
Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the front door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

Davis didn’t say immediately. For one thing, she put her shoes on first.

Quote
L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

But in an FBI report made 7 months earlier, Lewis says that he watched a man go down Patton and turn on Jefferson before going back into the office and calling the police.

Quote
Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio". 

This timestamp all depends on the integrity of the extant dictabelt recordings, keeping in mind that the dictabelt was voice activated, not continuous, that there are at least three versions of the written transcripts of those recordings, that the recording could have been edited when transferred to tape, and that the accuracy of the dispatcher’s clock is merely assumed.

Quote
If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.

How do you know how quickly Jackson would have been alerted?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 05, 2019, 07:47:32 AM
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TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the front door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was car number 10, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's patrol district and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.

CITIZEN: Hello, police operator?
DIS: Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
CITIZEN: There's been a shooting out here.
DIS: Where's it at?
DIS: The citizen using the police radio...
CITIZEN: Tenth Street.
DIS: What location on Tenth Street?
CITIZEN: Between Marsaliis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What--what's...Tenth Street.
DIS: Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voice in background)
DIS: 78.
CITIZEN: It's a police car, number 10.
DIS: 78.
DIS: (?) 78.
CITIZEN: Got that?
CITIZEN: Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
DIS: Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 East Jefferson.
CITIZEN: Thank you.

Jackson called 78 before hearing car 10. Oak Cliff was not Tippit's assigned district that day. Jackson directed him and Officer RC Nelson to move into Oak Cliff at 12.45pm. Also car 56 (Parker) was at East Jefferson at this time.

At 12.34pm. 91 (Menzel) calls clear twice without acknowledgement from Jackson. Oak Cliff was Menzel's district. He supposedly went to lunch at this time on Jefferson not far from the Texas Theatre. Also Jackson tried to establish where Parker (56) was.

DIS: 56.
91: 91 clear.
DIS: 55.
 10-4.
DIS: Anyone know where 56 is?

56: 56 clear for 5.
DIS: 56, your location.
56: East Jefferson.

12.45pm.
DIS: 87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.
78: I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.
87: 87's going north on Marsalis at R. L. Thornton.

At 12.48pm
101: 87, I'm on south end Houston Street Viaduct.
DIS: 10-4.

Are the positions reported by Nelson, Menzel and Parker about the same distance to 1026 North Beckley as 10th and Patton?


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 01:32:19 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bowley.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 01:51:32 PM
Gary, the Feluccas will come back with his watch was slow, as was the clock in the Hospital. Believe that if you will.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 01:52:37 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/1589-001.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 02:01:42 PM
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/1589-001.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325-2.jpg)

Strange that the two times in the lower two documents have both been altered to 1.25.p.m. 8)

And the original death certificate says time of death 1.15 p.m.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 02:05:59 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/jfk20-20tippit20pronounced20dead.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 02:18:14 PM
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/jfk20-20tippit20pronounced20dead.jpg)

1.06 p.m. altered (very poorly)  to 1.1.5pm. I wonder why.  ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0090-001.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 03:24:15 PM
How many more Oswald the Cop Killer threads do we need to start?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 05, 2019, 03:37:04 PM
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0090-001.jpg)

Notice that in this affidavit report that Helen Marsille  ( Markham?) told the police that the gunman was wearing a brown jacket and dark pants. .....    But the Jacket that was allegedly found in the parking lot was "White".... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 05, 2019, 07:24:25 PM
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OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.

You've hit the nail on the head.....

I'd call your attention to officer  Poe's affidavit....  Poe wrote;... "On Nov 22, 1963 at approximately 1:15 pm Officer J.W. Poe and L.H. Jez 1479 working squad 105 heard police officer involved in a shooting at 400 block of N. Tenth street"........

Notice the time....At approximately 1:15 ....  Poe heard ( over the police radio ) that an officer had been involved in a shooting.....

This means that the shooting had to have happened several minutes prior to 1:15.....  Helen Markham was adamant that the shooting occurred at 1:06, and TF Bowley, arrived on the scene at 1:10 and saw Tippit lying in the street near his squad car.  Bowley used Tippit's radio to notify the police dispatcher of the shooting.

The Time that Bowley transmitted the information was approximately 1:15 ...Just as it says in Poe's affidavit.

JD Tippit was shot and killed at about 1:06pm.....Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04pm.....  The rooming house was a mile away from the scene of Tippit's murder. 


   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 10:20:41 PM
It's obvious, by calling out for Tippit (78), that Murray Jackson had not previously been alerted by his superiors that Tippit had already been shot and killed. Therefore, Wright, Davis and Lewis didn't call the police to report the shooting much earlier than Jackson was made aware of it over the police radio by the citizen.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 05, 2019, 10:54:56 PM
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OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

One can only guess where. My first guess, years ago, was to General Walker’s house to take care of unfinished business. But lately I’ve imagined that if he had not been so quickly apprehended, there just might have been an attempted hi jack to Cuba at Love Field.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 05, 2019, 11:23:51 PM
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It's obvious, by calling out for Tippit (78), that Murray Jackson had not previously been alerted by his superiors that Tippit had already been shot and killed. Therefore, Wright, Davis and Lewis didn't call the police to report the shooting much earlier than Jackson was made aware of it over the police radio by the citizen.

As I posted earlier, would Jackson automatically assume Tippit, when Menzel, Parker and Nelson were all possibly around that location?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 11:46:17 PM
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If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

One can only guess where. My first guess, years ago, was to General Walker’s house to take care of unfinished business. But lately I’ve imagined that if he had not been so quickly apprehended, there just might have been an attempted hi jack to Cuba at Love Field.
Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 06, 2019, 12:03:07 AM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 06, 2019, 01:03:39 AM
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Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended

The man who shot JD Tippit was NOT Lee Oswald.....  So speculating about where he was going is just nonsense.

Commonsense dictates that he was going to the theater.....and he never was anywhere near 10th and Patton.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 01:53:25 AM
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Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended

Yes, I know that. I don’t have supporting evidence, but I have read that there was a bus stop on a bus route which includes that section of the city that was in the direction LHO was heading when the encounter with Tippit occurred. It is all just conjecture anyway, so I haven’t taken the time to confirm the bus routes. Maybe someone that has that information handy will comment.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 02:41:44 AM
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The man who shot JD Tippit was NOT Lee Oswald..... 
Totally agree Thumb1: Which leaves the speculation---What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?
Regarding the time of the shooting, in [With Malice] Dale Myers-another Warren defender-...completely ignores the reports of three people-- Helen Markham, Margie Higgins, and T F Bowley--  that they recall the shooting prior to 1:10.
See this chapter concerning Helen Markham....  http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tippit%20J%20D%20Murder/Item%2013.pdf
Even though there was a tape of her speaking on the phone with Mark Lane and it was played during her testimony before the Commission ...She denied that it was even her on the phone ???
Her statements concerning the shooting, the perpetrator, the lineup and every other incident were all over the place.
She was so off the wall that "the commission was just glad to get rid of her".
Consider a report from one researcher. As in her testimony, she had a son that lived with her. The boy had been in big trouble with the police [burglaries for the most part] Perhaps this had influenced her demeanor. We will never know for sure.
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 02:51:14 AM
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there was a bus stop on a bus route ...Maybe someone that has that information handy will comment.
According to the housekeeper..she last saw Oswald near the bus stop at Zang and Beckley [about 2 lots north of the rooming house. So if someone was headed into downtown -they would have simply just waited for the bus right there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 03:01:34 AM
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According to the housekeeper..she last saw Oswald near the bus stop at Zang and Beckley [about 2 lots north of the rooming house. So if someone was headed into downtown -they would have simply just waited for the bus right there.

If I remember correctly, the bus stop that he was heading in the direction of was on a different route than the one that stopped at Zang and Beckley. And that route reportedly included the areas north of downtown in which both Love Field and Walker’s residence are located.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 06, 2019, 03:16:09 PM
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If I remember correctly, the bus stop that he was heading in the direction of was on a different route than the one that stopped at Zang and Beckley. And that route reportedly included the areas north of downtown in which both Love Field and Walker’s residence are located.

If there was such a bus stop, it's most likely location would be on Jefferson, rather than on 10th Street. Tippit's killer was not walking in the direction of Jefferson.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 03:43:28 PM
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If there was such a bus stop, it's most likely location would be on Jefferson, rather than on 10th Street. Tippit's killer was not walking in the direction of Jefferson.
Absolutely. The shooter was proceeding east [apparently] on 10th. No buses that way. Mrs Markham was on her way to catch her bus on Jefferson as stated. She was not waiting for her bus at the [10th and Patton corner] The bus stop by the Oswald  rooms up on the east side of Beckley is the via downtown route. What do I know? I've only lived in Dallas all my life. But don't take my word for it...just look at the map :-\
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 05:53:11 PM
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Absolutely. The shooter was proceeding east [apparently] on 10th. No buses that way. Mrs Markham was on her way to catch her bus on Jefferson as stated. She was not waiting for her bus at the [10th and Patton corner] The bus stop by the Oswald  rooms up on the east side of Beckley is the via downtown route. What do I know? I've only lived in Dallas all my life. But don't take my word for it...just look at the map :-\

There are present-day bus stops at the intersections of both Marsailis & Jefferson, and Tenth & Jefferson. I don’t know about these in 1963. But I would think that they existed back then also. Like I said before, this was reportedly a different route that included the area north of downtown.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 06, 2019, 07:13:46 PM
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Totally agree Thumb1: Which leaves the speculation---What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?
Regarding the time of the shooting, in [With Malice] Dale Myers-another Warren defender-...completely ignores the reports of three people-- Helen Markham, Margie Higgins, and T F Bowley--  that they recall the shooting prior to 1:10.
See this chapter concerning Helen Markham....  http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tippit%20J%20D%20Murder/Item%2013.pdf
Even though there was a tape of her speaking on the phone with Mark Lane and it was played during her testimony before the Commission ...She denied that it was even her on the phone ???
Her statements concerning the shooting, the perpetrator, the lineup and every other incident were all over the place.
She was so off the wall that "the commission was just glad to get rid of her".
Consider a report from one researcher. As in her testimony, she had a son that lived with her. The boy had been in big trouble with the police [burglaries for the most part] Perhaps this had influenced her demeanor. We will never know for sure.

What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?

We can only speculate.... Unless new evidence surfaces.    It's obvious to me that Lee Oswald had been suckered into being the scapegoat, but he unwittingly threw a  monkey wrench into the machinery when he wasn't on the sixth floor at the time of the murder.  I firmly believe that the conspirators never intended for Lee to leave the TSBD alive. ...  And if he had been on the sixth floor he probably would have been shot to death by an "alert cop" and the case would have been closed then and there.   When he simply walked out of the TSBD and boarded a bus a couple of blocks away he created a panic for the conspirators, which required that they fall back to plan "B"....  They knew that he would be in the Texas Theater because that was where they they had told him to meet his handler after they hoax attempt to shoot JFK.  Lee thought that he would be whisked out of the country and accepted by Castro after the attempt to shoot JFK.   ( The same basic MO that Lee used at Walker's residence in April.)  So even though they never intended for Lee to leave the TSBD alive, they were prepared to get him shot in the Texas Theater...if he escaped the TSBD.   
They planned for an angry cop to shoot him in the theater....  To stir up the police they had set Tippit up as a patsy to be shot by a man who would run to the Texas Theater.   Then the irate cop would shoot Lee in the theater.  It's entirely possible that Tippit may have been designated to be the "alert cop" in the TSBD so by appointing  Tippit to be the hero who caught the fleeing assassin if he escaped the TSBD they suckered Tippit into being in a position to be shot and killed by a man who then fled to the Texas Theater....thus eliminating a link between them and  the assassination and  stirring up a swarm of angry cops who they thought would kill the armed Lee Oswald in the theater.  But.....Lee inadvertently  foiled their plan again when he didn't panic and remained calm in the theater.   If he had jumped up and tried to escape ....he would have been killed....

This is what I believe was the scheme .....  and as I said now we can only speculate.....   

But Based on the evidence and the facts, one thing that I have no doubt about is:.... Lee Oswald DID NOT shoot anybody in Dallas that day..... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 07, 2019, 12:31:30 AM
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As you can see there was no "draining of Oak Cliff" at 12.45pm as claimed by Jackson. Other than Dealey Plaza, there were more units available in that district than any other.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 08, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
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OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.
So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 08, 2019, 05:58:02 PM
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So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......
Doesn't matter...he had to hurry up and get there so he could shoot that cop :-\
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 06:16:59 PM
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So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......

So show me clear evidence that the Dallas police did exhustive house to house enquiries along the whole route.Show me proof that they did call backs to every property were they got no answer. Show me clear proof that any person has to be spotted by people when he or she walks or runs a nominated mile.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 06:18:50 PM
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Doesn't matter...he had to hurry up and get there so he could shoot that cop :-\

Don't know if your being sarcastic..but I don't think the murder of a cop be it yesterday or 50 years ago is something to make mirth over.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 08, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
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OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.

So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 08:17:44 PM
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So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??

You may well be right.On the other hand there are so many times being bandied about and with so many witnesses sketchy on times, that it's difficult to be sure. I'm simply making the point that if the killing happened on or after 1.08 it's conceivable that a fit able bodied person could've got from 1026 N.Beckley to be at the crime scene as early as 1.08. Depending obviously on his transport mode.Running,walking.And his time of departure from the rooming house.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings. The poor lady was hysterical after the shooting and made quite a few mistakes.



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 08, 2019, 08:47:11 PM
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You may well be right.On the other hand there are so many times being bandied about and with so many witnesses sketchy on times, that it's difficult to be sure. I'm simply making the point that if the killing happened on or after 1.08 it's conceivable that a fit able bodied person could've got from 1026 N.Beckley to be at the crime scene as early as 1.08. Depending obviously on his transport mode.Running,walking.And his time of departure from the rooming house.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings. The poor lady was hysterical after the shooting and made quite a few mistakes.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings

I assume that you mean the case for Lee's innocence would need another witness.... Well it just so happens that your wish for corroboration of Helen Markham's sworn statement that Tippit was shot at 1:06 was verified by a man named TF Bowley.    Mr Bowley arrived at the murder scene at 1:10 ( according to his sworn affidavit)  And saw officer Tippit lying on the street near the left front wheel of his squad car.  Obviously Tippit had been shot a few minutes before Bowley arrived at 1:10....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
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So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD.

It’s also entirely possible that it wasn’t Oswald.

Quote
And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.

No there weren’t.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2019, 10:53:13 PM
There’s also Margie Higgins who placed the shooting at 1:06. And Tippit’s death certificate that said he was DOA at the hospital at 1:15.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 11:12:14 PM
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So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??

Looking at Mrs.Markhams testimony, sworn testimony. She states that she was walking South towards Jefferson.When asked about the time she said "It was a little after 1.." and " I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1". Looks like, at this point she had not arrived at the bus stop area so that testimony is not very clear on timings. And she doesn't actually put a precise time on the shooting. She said "yes,this man shot the Policeman" There does not appear to be any reference to the actual time of the killing. 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 11:24:36 PM
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I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings

I assume that you mean the case for Lee's innocence would need another witness.... Well it just so happens that your wish for corroboration of Helen Markham's sworn statement that Tippit was shot at 1:06 was verified by a man named TF Bowley.    Mr Bowley arrived at the murder scene at 1:10 ( according to his sworn affidavit)  And saw officer Tippit lying on the street near the left front wheel of his squad car.  Obviously Tippit had been shot a few minutes before Bowley arrived at 1:10....

But that doesn't corroborate Mrs.Markham. It simple says TF Bowley, according to his watch, arrived at the crime scene at 1.10. He also stated that another person at the scene said "lets catch him" This could indicate the gunman had only left the scene shortly before TF Bowley arrives. So it's actually very difficult to put a precise time on the actual killing.

Which could put in doubt any claim that a gunman would not have time to be at the crime scene as the time of the actual murder is not clear.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 12:03:28 AM
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Looking at Mrs.Markhams testimony, sworn testimony. She states that she was walking South towards Jefferson.When asked about the time she said "It was a little after 1.." and " I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1". Looks like, at this point she had not arrived at the bus stop area so that testimony is not very clear on timings. And she doesn't actually put a precise time on the shooting. She said "yes,this man shot the Policeman" There does not appear to be any reference to the actual time of the killing.

I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 09, 2019, 01:20:03 AM
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I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait an see, but I won't hold my breath.

I won't hold my breath.

Why Not ?....  Our little Chappie holds his breath... and kicks his little feet in a tantrum every time someone proves that he's wrong.   ( which is often)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ted Shields on October 09, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
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I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 01:23:19 PM
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Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?

No, but none of the other witnesses had a reason to be acutely aware of the time.

Markham needed to catch the bus to go to work and Bowley had to pick up his daughter from school and his wife from work.

Selective or not, the combination of Markham's testimony and Bowley's affidavit provides a solid timeline which also fits perfectly with Tippit being declared DOA at the hospital at 1.15.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 09, 2019, 02:27:50 PM
The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 09, 2019, 02:30:34 PM
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The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

And the hospital clock where Tippit was taken must have been slow as the correct times on the sheets were altered subsequently. There must have been a problem over the whole of Dallas that morning causing all these clocks and watches to be slow. :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 03:36:39 PM
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The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

Part of the LN scenario is also that Bowley's watch was also 5 minutes slow. Never mind that this would mean that he left his daughter waiting 5 minutes at school, without noticing it

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And the hospital clock where Tippit was taken must have been slow as the correct times on the sheets were altered subsequently. There must have been a problem over the whole of Dallas that morning causing all these clocks and watches to be slow. :D

The Tippit murder was a local crime. So, why was the FBI constantly phoning the hospital about the time of death?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 09, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
Yeah they had a rash of almost equally slow timepieces in Oak Cliff that day.

The police dispatcher’s time checks on the possibly edited, non-continuous dictabelt dubs, though, you can take to the bank.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 09, 2019, 04:09:37 PM
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Don't know if your being sarcastic..but I don't think the murder of a cop be it yesterday or 50 years ago is something to make mirth over.
Apparently, the point is not the only thing you seem to be missing.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 09, 2019, 04:11:46 PM
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Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06) How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??
Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 09, 2019, 06:04:29 PM
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The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

As I recall ...Mrs Markham was on the telephone talking to her daughter when she noticed that the clock in her apartment indicated that it was about 1:00 pm. She told her daughter that she needed to hang up and go to catch the bus .    Since she wanted to verify the clock in her apartment was correct she looked at the washateria clock  as she walked through that laundry room....  She was acutely aware of the time when she reached the intersection of 10th  & Patton....and she said in her sworn affidavit that the time was 1:06 when she saw officer Tippit shot by a young man who had bushy hair, was wearing a jacket that was darker colored than the jacket displayed to her as the jacket of the killer, white shirt and black trousers.   

At the theater Lee Oswald was wearing a tawny gray colored shirt, ( Not a white shirt) and gray trousers......   

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.


Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did you ever see this before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.
Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, I know it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment I was so excited--
Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see a shirt the color of this?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that.
Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 10, 2019, 12:40:19 AM
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Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?

Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 12:51:49 AM
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Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

Correction: cartridges that were handed to police by civilians (two of which were missing the policeman’s initials placed thereon) were matched to a revolver that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald’s arrest.

Quote
A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable. Also, seeing a man with a handgun a block or two away from a crime scene isn’t evidence that the man shot anybody.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 12:59:55 AM
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Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

You make bold statements but can never back them up with actual evidence.... Why is that?

the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald

Taken from Oswald? Really? And you know this, how?

As far as I know the chain of custody for the revolver started at the police station about two hours after Oswald was arrested, when Hill got some guys (some who had not even been at the arrest) to put a mark on a revolver he just presented to them. Since when do police officers walk around with a suspect's gun for two hours before turning it in to the evidence locker?

The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed

Too strong? Really?

Eye witness testimony is the least reliable kind of evidence and there is no ballistic evidence to link the bullets recovered from Tippit's body to any weapon.

And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Actually, wishful thing does....

Why don't you try to provide a credible alternative to the Markham/Bowley timeline instead of ignoring it.

A fair minded person would accept that if Oswald physically couldn't have been there at around 1.06, when - as the actual evidence shows - Tippit was really shot, it could mean that the witnesses were wrong. But, I guess, hell needs to freeze over twice before you are willing to go there, right?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 10, 2019, 01:01:05 AM
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I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 01:14:35 AM
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A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front.

Yes, but not the timings of Markham, who needed to catch a bus, and Bowley, who needed to collect his child from school.

Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what.

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television. The combined testimony/affidavit of Markham and Bowley make a solid case for Tippit being shot at 1.06. There is no way that anybody could have walked or ran the distance to get there in 5 minutes or less. So, your next claim is going to be "perhaps somebody drove him"?..... Just ask yourself why would anybody drive a guy, allegedly in a hurry to escape, to a go nowhere location like 10th street?

In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

Actually, no it doesn't. There is no ballistic link whatsoever between the bullets recovered from Tippit's body and the shells or revolver they claim they took of Oswald. As for the eye witnesses, as I said before, that's the weakest kind of evidence you can get. Scoggings, for example, couldn't identify Oswald from a photo to the FBI only a day after the line up. And Markham... "was there a number 2 man" would have been destroyed on cross examination, as would have been several others.

But I take it that all this means that you can not knock down the logic of the combined Markham/Bowley evidence, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 01:36:06 AM
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A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

He 'trotted' away from the murder scene, according to a witness or two. Try trotting yourself... It's a very efficient method of covering ground in a timely manner w/o straining. A little faster than brisk walking, I found. Also appears less rushed than fast jogging and certainly all-out sprinting... in case of 'eyes on'
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 01:41:16 AM
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He 'trotted' away from the murder scene, according to a witness or two. Try trotting yourself... It's a very efficient method of covering ground in a timely manner w/o straining. A little faster than brisk walking, I found. Also appears less rushed than fast jogging and certainly all-out sprinting... in case of 'eyes on'

Are you high on medication or drugs? Just asking....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 01:47:30 AM
Mark Lane tried to get Markham to say a man with 'bushy hair'. She didn't agree with that description.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 01:48:51 AM
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A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front.

Yes, but not the timings of Markham, who needed to catch a bus, and Bowley, who needed to collect his child from school.

Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what.

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television. The combined testimony/affidavit of Markham and Bowley make a solid case for Tippit being shot at 1.06. There is no way that anybody could have walked or ran the distance to get there in 5 minutes or less. So, your next claim is going to be "perhaps somebody drove him"?..... Just ask yourself why would anybody drive a guy, allegedly in a hurry to escape, to a go nowhere location like 10th street?

In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

Actually, no it doesn't. There is no ballistic link whatsoever between the bullets recovered from Tippit's body and the shells or revolver they claim they took of Oswald. As for the eye witnesses, as I said before, that's the weakest kind of evidence you can get. Scoggings, for example, couldn't identify Oswald from a photo to the FBI only a day after the line up. And Markham... "was there a number 2 man" would have been destroyed on cross examination, as would have been several others.

But I take it that all this means that you can not knock down the logic of the combined Markham/Bowley evidence, right?

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:25:08 AM
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Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”

So, Earlene Roberts is unreliable? Is that what you are claiming?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 02:50:49 AM
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So, Earlene Roberts is unreliable? Is that what you are claiming?

These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:56:42 AM
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These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.

Just reporting what Hugh said.

Do you agree with Aynesworth?

He was there

He was where? Was he there "when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money"?

Who were those conspiracy theorists offering money?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 03:11:07 AM
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Just reporting what Hugh said.

Do you agree with Aynesworth?

He was there

He was where? Was he there "when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money"?

Who were those conspiracy theorists offering money?

Hugh is still around. I had no problem looking him up and reaching him to ask him a few questions not long ago. He could answer your questions.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:43:48 AM
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Hugh is still around. I had no problem looking him up and reaching him to ask him a few questions not long ago. He could answer your questions.

Oh no, you don't get to throw some quotes out here and leave it at that. You either agree with him or not.. what is it?

Hiding behind Aynesworth's quotes makes you a coward! And, no, Hugh could not answer my question, which is if you agree with him!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 03:54:24 AM
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A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.


it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.

Riiiiight!....  Roger Bannister had just broken a long standing goal in the one mile run....He was the first man to run a mile in less than four minutes.  But you believe that Lee Oswald was even faster than Roger Bannister.     Question....  Can you point out where Lee Oswald beat Roger Bannister's record.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 05:07:24 AM
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Are you high on medication or drugs? Just asking....

Like a moth to the flame, you just have to respond to me; after repeatedly claiming I'm not worthy of same.

Seems your drug is me...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 10, 2019, 06:18:59 AM
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These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.

(https://i.ibb.co/GMz1zQn/roberts.jpg)

Seems they arrived within a week.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
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Oh no, you don't get to throw some quotes out here and leave it at that. You either agree with him or not.. what is it?

Hiding behind Aynesworth's quotes makes you a coward! And, no, Hugh could not answer my question, which is if you agree with him!

Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 10, 2019, 11:34:52 AM
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Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...

Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 11:47:53 AM
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Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.

Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 12:16:45 PM
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Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”

disclosed for the first time the bus driver -- LOL

the cab driver -- LOL

all the people that he encountered along the way -- LOL

WC mouthpiece.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:12:38 PM
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Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...

It was not my claim, it was what Earlene Roberts said. Nothing what Hugh Aynesworth said in the book is in conflict with what Earlene Roberts said.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on October 10, 2019, 02:21:22 PM
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Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.

What is the logic behind this mind numbing claim?  It's difficult to understand why we should take a reporter's version of events "with a large dose of salt" simply because he believes Oswald is guilty.  Maybe he came to that conclusion based on the evidence.  He was there on the scene.  Are you suggesting he intentionally lied for some reason?  Was he part of the frame up, for example? 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 02:40:12 PM
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Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”

we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”[/b]

It stood up quite well???   What an absurd notion.....  Not a single element of that tale has stood up under scrutiny.     The Bus Driver Mc Watters, was not referring to Lee Oswald in his recollections....   Whaley the cabbie said that he picked up a young man who was dressed in a a BLUE working man's uniform at 12:30....Which was the time the shots were being fired in Dealey plaza....So his passenger could not have bee Lee Oswald.  And in fact Whaley's entire tale appears as nothing but BS.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 02:46:26 PM
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It was not my claim, it was what Earlene Roberts said. Nothing what Hugh Aynesworth said in the book is in conflict with what Earlene Roberts said.

The conflict is that she told Aynesworth that “she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him.” Versus your claim that: “she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.”

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:34:57 PM
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The conflict is that she told Aynesworth that “she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him.” Versus your claim that: “she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.”

There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

Perhaps you would have had a valid point if the bus stop had been a mile or so away, but it wasn't. It was nearly in front of the roominghouse.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:44:45 PM
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Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”

changed his jacket

So, if we are to believe Aynesworth's account, Earlene Roberts told him basically that Oswald entered the house wearing a jacket?

You can not change a jacket if you aren't wearing one to begin with, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 05:03:27 PM
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changed his jacket

So, if we are to believe Aynesworth's account, Earlene Roberts told him basically that Oswald entered the house wearing a jacket?

You can not change a jacket if you aren't wearing one to begin with, right?

This brings up something that Mrs Robert's said.....  Mrs Roberts said that he was in his "shirt sleeves" when he arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm.....

My grandmother used those same words when she was referring to a man wearing an undershirt....without another garment ( jacket or sleeved shirt)

It's possible that Lee had already removed his sport shirt and thus Mrs Roberts saw him wearing his undershirt when he arrived at the house.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 05:28:23 PM
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Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.  The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed.

I agree....the ballistic evidence is to strong to be dismissed.

Virtually all of the witnesses who saw the gunman after the murder of Tippit said that he removed one spent shell at a time as he walked away from the scene.   The killer removed one spent shell and tossed it away and then removed another and another as he walked along...Thus the shells were scattered over a large area.

The S&W revolver has an ejector mechanism that ejects all of the shells at once.   ( This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission)

So if the killer had been using a S&W he could not have removed the shells one at a time as reported by the witnesses at the scene.

The man was NOT Lee Oswald and the gun was NOT a Smith & Wesson....... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 05:47:07 PM
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There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

Perhaps you would have had a valid point if the bus stop had been a mile or so away, but it wasn't. It was nearly in front of the roominghouse.

Both claims can be correct.

It appears that in your world "she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him" can also mean that "she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.” (By the way the bus stop is in front of the house to the right as you run off the porch.)

It appears that in your world left means right, and last time means last time other than the next time. If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Did Alice tell you these things (when she was ten feet tall)? ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
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This brings up something that Mrs Robert's said.....  Mrs Roberts said that he was in his "shirt sleeves" when he arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm.....

My grandmother used those same words when she was referring to a man wearing an undershirt....without another garment ( jacket or sleeved shirt)

It's possible that Lee had already removed his sport shirt and thus Mrs Roberts saw him wearing his undershirt when he arrived at the house.

According to vocabulary.com:

“"in your shirtsleeves" means you are not wearing anything over your shirt”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 06:16:19 PM
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According to vocabulary.com:

“"in your shirtsleeves" means you are not wearing anything over your shirt”

That's probably true.... But back in the day... 50, or 60, or 70 years ago not everybody was well educated, and used a dictionary to learn the meaning of a word.... They used like "car"  to mean any conveyance like a street car, or a carriage.....  but not many folks today know that.   The word "car" now means an automobile.  And many folks used the "N" word to describe a negro.... There was nothing derogatory or obscene about the word.   ( Remember "Huckleberry Finn?.. What did Jim call himself?  ) ....   

So old Mrs Roberts probably was referring to seeing Lee in his T shirt when he arrived at the rooming house.....IMO
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 10, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
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What is the logic behind this mind numbing claim?  It's difficult to understand why we should take a reporter's version of events "with a large dose of salt" simply because he believes Oswald is guilty.  Maybe he came to that conclusion based on the evidence.  He was there on the scene.  Are you suggesting he intentionally lied for some reason?  Was he part of the frame up, for example?
Aynesworth wrote this about the single bullet theory and the WC (this is from his book "Eyewitness to History.")

"The only subject I woudn't touch [with Mark Lane] was one I still refuse to touch today. I do not know how to explain Kennedy's and Connally's wound. The Warren Commission might be correct or perhaps totally wrong about its much-maligned single bullet theory, the belief that a single bullet slammed through the president's back and throat and then into Governor Connally. I do know that I heard three distinct shots that afternoon."

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

It's funny that Aynesworth has been called a CIA asset by some in the "There was a conspiracy camp" (yeah, they call everyone who disagree with them that but never mind). He said that one of his biggest mistakes was giving Mark Lane his (Aynesworth's) work on the assassination. This included his notes and interviews and other material that he compiled BEFORE the Warren Commission was formed.

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 08:02:11 PM
I don’t know why Aynesworth’s hearsay would be any more reliable than anyone else’s.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 08:49:22 PM
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Aynesworth wrote this about the single bullet theory and the WC (this is from his book "Eyewitness to History.")

"The only subject I woudn't touch [with Mark Lane] was one I still refuse to touch today. I do not know how to explain Kennedy's and Connally's wound. The Warren Commission might be correct or perhaps totally wrong about its much-maligned single bullet theory, the belief that a single bullet slammed through the president's back and throat and then into Governor Connally. I do know that I heard three distinct shots that afternoon."

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

It's funny that Aynesworth has been called a CIA asset by some in the "There was a conspiracy camp" (yeah, they call everyone who disagree with them that but never mind). He said that one of his biggest mistakes was giving Mark Lane his (Aynesworth's) work on the assassination. This included his notes and interviews and other material that he compiled BEFORE the Warren Commission was formed.

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

He might have realized how far out it was...

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

I'm sure Graves is ready to lecture you on why or why not this might be the case.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 09:10:22 PM
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For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

He might have realized how far out it was...

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

I'm sure Graves is ready to lecture you on why or why not this might be the case.

He might have realized how far out it was...

Eyewitness Charles Brehm said the following in his interview by Larry Sneed in his book “No More Silence.”

“Within hours after the knowledge was given to me that Connally was also wounded, I said the only thing that I could think of was that a bullet that went through the President had also obviously hit Connally because there were only three shots fired: one went wild and two hit the President. The question then was how could it have happened? At that time, it was very easy for me to open up my shirt and show the bullet wound in what was the solar plexus, to come over here and show the exit wound where it passed through my body and came out between my ribs; then the second part of the bullet, the damage, because the bullet was softened and out of shape, tore my arm apart. One bullet did that to me! Any questions that night about what a single bullet can do, my God, I was living proof of it that day!”

So apparently, Arlen Spector wasn’t the first one to think of that theory. And it isn’t that far out either.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 09:24:46 PM
Charles Brehm was wounded?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
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Charles Brehm was wounded?

World War 2
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 10, 2019, 09:48:17 PM
Hugh Aynesworth had over thirty plus years of reporting which included hundreds, if not thousands, of articles (and several books). We are literally talking about tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of words. Thousands of interviews. It's a lot of work including not only the JFK assassination but the Waco siege, Ted Bundy and other horrible stories.

To my knowledge there hasn't been a single allegation of any unethical or improper reporting on his part. No one has claimed that he or she was misquoted, no stories were retracted, no allegations of inaccurate stories (although I'm sure over that time he got some facts wrong).

This is a serious, professional journalist. Not a hack.

Yet we're supposed to consider his "hearsay" as not being any more credible than anyone else's "hearsay"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 09:51:31 PM
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He might have realized how far out it was...

Eyewitness Charles Brehm said the following in his interview by Larry Sneed in his book “No More Silence.”

“Within hours after the knowledge was given to me that Connally was also wounded, I said the only thing that I could think of was that a bullet that went through the President had also obviously hit Connally because there were only three shots fired: one went wild and two hit the President. The question then was how could it have happened? At that time, it was very easy for me to open up my shirt and show the bullet wound in what was the solar plexus, to come over here and show the exit wound where it passed through my body and came out between my ribs; then the second part of the bullet, the damage, because the bullet was softened and out of shape, tore my arm apart. One bullet did that to me! Any questions that night about what a single bullet can do, my God, I was living proof of it that day!”

So apparently, Arlen Spector wasn’t the first one to think of that theory. And it isn’t that far out either.

Three shots with only two shells?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 10:07:13 PM
Earlene Roberts WC testimony

Mrs. Roberts: He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

-----------------------------

And Oswald was wearing a Tshirt that day, not an undershirt
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 10:27:47 PM
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This is a serious, professional journalist. Not a hack.

Yet we're supposed to consider his "hearsay" as not being any more credible than anyone else's "hearsay"?

If he thought that Mrs. Roberts said that Oswald “changed his jacket”, then yes.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 10:48:04 PM
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Both claims can be correct.

It appears that in your world "she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him" can also mean that "she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.” (By the way the bus stop is in front of the house to the right as you run off the porch.)

It appears that in your world left means right, and last time means last time other than the next time. If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Did Alice tell you these things (when she was ten feet tall)? ::)

Semantics.

As you have demonstrated so very well with this post, people simply do not get everything correct and 100% complete every time. In this instance you've got nothing right. Better luck next time....

If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Could it be your memory is playing tricks with your mind? What untruth did Wesley Frazier tell?

On the one hand we have the recollection of Aynesworth, as expressed by Larry Sneed, in his book published in 1998 and on the other hand we have an affidavit given by Earlene Roberts to the Secret Service on December 5th 1963 and you prefer to go with a 35 year old recollection over a statement by the witness herself only days after the murders. Go figure....

The funny thing is that none of it matters. The timeline established by the WC leaves very little room for Oswald's arrival at the rooming house sustantially earlier than 1 pm, making it physically impossible for a walking or running Oswald to be on 10th and Patton at 1.06 or 1.07, which IMO the best evidence shows is when Tippit was killed.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 10:52:11 PM
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Earlene Roberts WC testimony

Mrs. Roberts: He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

-----------------------------

And Oswald was wearing a Tshirt that day, not an undershirt

Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 11, 2019, 12:23:06 AM
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Three shots with only two shells?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 12:36:23 AM
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https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

Walt, what does "all the evidence" mean to you?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 12:45:27 AM
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https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

No, Walt. Drain didn’t get the magic partial palmprint that night, no matter how many times you want to pretend that he did.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 01:03:13 AM
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(https://i.ibb.co/GMz1zQn/roberts.jpg)

Seems they arrived within a week.

So Charles, have you asked Hugh when the conspiracy theorists arrived to ask her for money?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 01:04:02 AM
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Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?

Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 01:12:21 AM
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Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.

So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 01:34:07 AM
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So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?

He does if it fits his narrative.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EzGXCrrIQs/U3iNuSeXBiI/AAAAAAAA0Cs/enOSCvythBw/s1600/LHO-Room.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 02:18:40 AM
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So Charles, have you asked Hugh when the conspiracy theorists arrived to ask her for money?

I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 02:23:00 AM
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I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

Amazing 35 years old memories  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 02:28:38 AM
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Amazing 35 years old memories  Thumb1:

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 02:47:10 AM
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1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

As I said; amazing 35 year old memory!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 02:52:40 AM
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I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

You used an Aynesworth quote to claim that Roberts changed her story in response to conspiracy theorists offering money to her. I merely questioned when this occurred as she was talking of "the police car outside the house" a week after the assassination.

Now you use a quote from him suggesting that after the shots people were mistaken and "made stuff up". No need for money or CTs now.

The logical progression is following.

After the shooting people were mistaken and described events that did not happen.

Roberts described events after the event so she must have made them up or was mistaken. QED?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 02:53:07 AM
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“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then!

Like Howard Brennan for example?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 02:55:38 AM
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I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

Cue Charles Givens.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 03:04:22 AM
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You used an Aynesworth quote to claim that Roberts changed her story in response to conspiracy theorists offering money to her. I merely questioned when this occurred as she was talking of "the police car outside the house" a week after the assassination.

Now you use a quote from him suggesting that after the shots people were mistaken and "made stuff up". No need for money or CTs now.

The logical progression is following.

After the shooting people were mistaken and described events that did not happen.

Roberts described events after the event so she must have made them up or was mistaken. QED?

I said previously that I am only reporting what Aynesworth said. Here is some more from Sneed’s interview:

“When you pay money, you get what you pay for. You word your questions the way that you want a response, and people are smart enough to know that if they disagree with you, you may not come back and you may not pay them again. Sadly, many people have made a lot of money out of this thing, and it’s contorted the whole story.”

And your generalizations are nonsense. Here are more of Aynesworth’s words (which immediately follow his account of his visit with Roberts):

“But this is the way with so many of these witnesses. If you got to them that day, they were stunned and told you what they really saw, although, as I’ve said, some of them were even making up stories then.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 03:19:51 AM
Who exactly does Aynsworth think paid Earlene Roberts? And to say what?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 03:30:11 AM
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Who exactly does Aynsworth think paid Earlene Roberts? And to say what?

And when?

I can only assume Charles used Ayensworth's quote to infer she changed her story in response to monetary gain offered by "conspiracy theorists". When challenged, nothing specific was offered. somewhat of a backpedal though, in the form of another quote stating the "bleeding obvious" followed. Some witnesses were mistaken and others concocted stories. As if we don't know that already.

The evidence that she changed her story for CTs is what? Other than the statement by Aynesworth.

As I said before, Cue Charles Givens, Aynesworth analysis of his story change was?



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 04:03:02 AM
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  It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.
Back when I was in the Navy...I stayed a while with this really elderly couple when I was on leave and he was about 90. Their name was Beck [funny I can remember that after all these years]...Anyway he could recite his entire military graduating class alphabetically from like 1919 or something but I had to keep telling him what my name was. 
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 04:30:09 AM
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So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?

Where did I say Earlene was unreliable



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 06:44:22 AM
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3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

No reference?

"Some Types of Memory Improve or Stay the Same
A type of memory called semantic memory continues to improve for many older adults. Semantic memory is the ability to recall concepts and general facts that are not related to specific experiences. For example, understanding the concept that clocks are used to tell time is a simple example of semantic memory. This type of memory also includes vocabulary and knowledge of language. In addition, procedural memory, your memory of how to do things, such as how to tell time by reading the numbers on a clock, typically stays the same."

https://www.apa.org/pi/aging/memory-and-aging.pdf
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 08:26:24 AM
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1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

Hat trick from Collins, don't forget to bookmark!

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.

You saw his notes?

2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?

Don't forget to tell Bill Chapman how many times Buell Frazier has told his two foot bag story.

3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

You've been on the Ruth Paine tour bus?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 12:19:55 PM
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And when?

I can only assume Charles used Ayensworth's quote to infer she changed her story in response to monetary gain offered by "conspiracy theorists". When challenged, nothing specific was offered. somewhat of a backpedal though, in the form of another quote stating the "bleeding obvious" followed. Some witnesses were mistaken and others concocted stories. As if we don't know that already.

The evidence that she changed her story for CTs is what? Other than the statement by Aynesworth.

As I said before, Cue Charles Givens, Aynesworth analysis of his story change was?

Aynesworth doesn’t elaborate on your questions in that interview. I suggest that you contact him if you really want to know.

I did re-read a short chapter in his book “Witness to History” titled: “The First Conspiracy Theorist: Mr. Stalls” though. Rodney Stalls was sitting on Aynesworth’s doorstep when he arrived home on the night of 11/22/63. He described a conspiracy involving the Russians and H.L. Hunt.

So, it didn’t take long at all for the conspiracy theorists to start showing up...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
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Aynesworth doesn’t elaborate on your questions in that interview. I suggest that you contact him if you really want to know.

I did re-read a short chapter in his book “Witness to History” titled: “The First Conspiracy Theorist: Mr. Stalls” though. Rodney Stalls was sitting on Aynesworth’s doorstep when he arrived home on the night of 11/22/63. He described a conspiracy involving the Russians and H.L. Hunt.

So, it didn’t take long at all for the conspiracy theorists to start showing up...

Just ask Henry Wade....LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 01:29:32 PM
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Hat trick from Collins, don't forget to bookmark!

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.

You saw his notes?

2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?

Don't forget to tell Bill Chapman how many times Buell Frazier has told his two foot bag story.

3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

You've been on the Ruth Paine tour bus?

You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 11, 2019, 03:05:01 PM
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Walt, what does "all the evidence" mean to you?

The DPD listed all of the evidence they had gathered after the ambush murder and before midnight on 11 / 22 /63.

The DPD turned all of that evidence over to FBI agent Vince Drain ......

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 05:32:34 PM
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Where did I say Earlene was unreliable

Post #101 on page 11

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Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?

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Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.

Despite your selfserving cherry picking "pretty sure" comment, you agreed that Roberts was absolutely an unreliable witness.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
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Just ask Henry Wade....LOL.
The DA was the first [and only] official to mention words of a possible conspiracy publicly. After J Edgar Hoover called him up and chewed out Wade's backside...Mr Wade changed his statements to "Oswald was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 06:07:32 PM
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You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.

So the tale goes.

He also considers Buell Frazier one of the must honest guys he's met (paraphrased).

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 11, 2019, 06:36:59 PM
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You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.
Correct. He's been an investigative reporter for more than three decades and has worked for major news organizations. He's written hundreds, probably thousands, of articles and interviewed countless - must be at least in the hundreds if not thousands - of witnesses. He's produced a lot of material on the assassination, Ted Bundy, the Waco siege and other stories. He was a serious reporter.

Nowhere have I read of a source/witness saying they were misquoted. If he had been we know these conspiracy advocates would be repeating them. Ad nauseam.

Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt, he has to be dismissed. Obviously people can choose to accept or ignore whatever evidence or claims they want. But rejecting Aynesworth solely because he reports things conspiracists and Oswald defenders don't like isn't a legitimate reason to do so.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 06:42:36 PM
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So the tale goes.

He also considers Buell Frazier one of the must honest guys he's met (paraphrased).

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Atta boy!

Now you are showing your true colors.

Someone who is closed-minded.

When you decide you want to become more open-minded, let us know.

In the meantime, I will not waste anymore of my time with you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 11, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
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Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Atta boy!

Now you are showing your true colors.

Someone who is closed-minded.

When you decide you want to become more open-minded, let us know.

In the meantime, I will not waste anymore of my time with you.
This is the same response I get when I mention Robert Caro on LBJ. Caro's spent twenty plus years investigating LBJ's life. From birth to death. And he's come up with no evidence that LBJ was behind/involved in the assassination.

So what's the Oswald defender response? Simply dismiss his work out of hand. Don't even consider it. Can he be wrong? Of course. But to just dismiss it out hand is not a legitimate response. Not in my opinion.

This is how it goes. We're dealing with a type of religious mentality or thinking here. They know there was a conspiracy, they know Oswald was framed, and that's it. Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 07:15:21 PM
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This is the same response I get when I mention Robert Caro on LBJ. Caro's spent twenty plus years investigating LBJ's life. From birth to death. And he's come up with no evidence that LBJ was behind/involved in the assassination.

So what's the Oswald defender response? Simply dismiss his work out of hand. Don't even consider it. Can he be wrong? Of course. But to just dismiss it out hand is not a legitimate response. Not in my opinion.

This is how it goes. We're dealing with a type of religious mentality or thinking here. They know there was a conspiracy, they know Oswald was framed, and that's it. Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.

Yes, that type of response is fairly  common. However, I usually try to reason things out. If only for the benefit of anyone who has an open mind, that might be reading these posts. But there is a point where it becomes rather pointless...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 07:46:34 PM
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Correct. He's been an investigative reporter for more than three decades and has worked for major news organizations. He's written hundreds, probably thousands, of articles and interviewed countless - must be at least in the hundreds if not thousands - of witnesses. He's produced a lot of material on the assassination, Ted Bundy, the Waco siege and other stories. He was a serious reporter.

Nowhere have I read of a source/witness saying they were misquoted. If he had been we know these conspiracy advocates would be repeating them. Ad nauseam.

Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt, he has to be dismissed. Obviously people can choose to accept or ignore whatever evidence or claims they want. But rejecting Aynesworth solely because he reports things conspiracists and Oswald defenders don't like isn't a legitimate reason to do so.

"But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt..."


Which was?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 07:55:34 PM
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Post #101 on page 11

Despite your selfserving cherry picking "pretty sure" comment, you agreed that Roberts was absolutely an unreliable witness.

I didn't agree that she was an unreliable witness
I agreed with the possibility that she was

Absolutely
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 08:02:42 PM
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He does if it fits his narrative.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EzGXCrrIQs/U3iNuSeXBiI/AAAAAAAA0Cs/enOSCvythBw/s1600/LHO-Room.jpg)

'He' didn't agree that Roberts was an unreliable witness
'He' agreed that it was possible that she was

Absolutely
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 08:31:44 PM
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  Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.
"..to be ignored".---scrutinized
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 11:22:13 PM
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Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

Did Aynesworth recall Roberts telling him that Oswald “changed his jacket”?

Do you believe that’s correct?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 13, 2019, 11:37:23 PM
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"Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored"

The above quote sounds like a quip from deep within the bowels of the smoke filled back rooms of the Warren Omission.

Smoke filled back rooms??....J. Edgar Hoover would never have permitted smoking during the meetings.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 14, 2019, 04:45:16 PM
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Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

That's fine....Now please prove that those cartridges were the ones that were picked up at the scene, and tell us WHEN those cartridges were fired.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.

Yes,  that's true... And what did those witnesses say about the manner in which the man unloaded the revolver?   Isn't it true that they all said that he unloaded the spent cartridges ONE AT A TIME as he walked away?  The revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald at the theater was a Smith & Wesson....  Smith and Wesson revolvers are designed to eject the cartridges all at the same time with a single push of the ejector rod.  This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission by an FBI agent who was using the revolver from the theater.  He pointed out that all of the shells were ejected at the same time and his hand was liberally coated with burned gun powder when he ejected the shells.
The man who shot JD Tippit removed one shell at a time and tossed the shell aside as he walked away....Thus the shells were found scattered over a wide area.   Obviously the man was NOT using the Smith & Wesson revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald at the theater.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald.

So you recognize that Lee Oswald could not have traveled from the rooming house to the murder scene in about three minutes, but you still believe that that fact "doesn't rule out Oswald".....   Do I have that right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:14:27 AM
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And Tippit’s death certificate that said he was DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

Can you post this please?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:19:04 AM
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I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

So you either believe that Tippit's body was lying in the street for almost ten minutes before someone attempted to report it over the police radio... or you believe the police tapes have been fudged.  Which do you believe?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:23:17 AM
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Correction: cartridges that were handed to police by civilians (two of which were missing the policeman’s initials placed thereon) were matched to a revolver that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald’s arrest.

Please explain the problem with the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:26:26 AM
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Also, seeing a man with a handgun a block or two away from a crime scene isn’t evidence that the man shot anybody.

Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:37:36 AM
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There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

So it's now possible that Helen Markham left her house well past 1:00 and as a result, it's now possible that Markham was at Tenth and Patton well past 1:06.

Got it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Matthew Finch on October 22, 2019, 12:15:26 PM
Has anyone ever considered that Oswald might have been on his way to finish off Walker - hence 'grabbing the pistol', the direction he 'supposedly' headed?

(100% speculation!)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 22, 2019, 01:00:51 PM
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Has anyone ever considered that Oswald might have been on his way to finish off Walker - hence 'grabbing the pistol', the direction he 'supposedly' headed?

(100% speculation!)

Yes, I speculate that he was originally heading to Davis Street then was planning to turn west toward the Love Field bus route stop at Davis and Westmount Avenue (total of three miles from the rooming house). I suspect when Tippit saw him, and started following him, that he made a evasive turn or two to see if he was indeed being followed. And ended up going east on Tenth Street. I think that there is a good possibility that he could have been thinking of a hi jack to Cuba. Or, as you speculate, heading to Walker’s house. I don’t think that he was just aimlessly wandering around.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 01:14:23 PM
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I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.


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So you either believe that Tippit's body was lying in the street for almost ten minutes before someone attempted to report it over the police radio... or you believe the police tapes have been fudged.  Which do you believe?


Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

There are no police tapes. All there are, are transcripts of recordings made with voice activated devices, making it impossible to verify actual times.

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So it's now possible that Helen Markham left her house well past 1:00 and as a result, it's now possible that Markham was at Tenth and Patton well past 1:06.

Got it.

Yes, people do not get everything 100% right all the time. It is also possible that Markham got the time (1:15) wrong for catching the 1:12 bus!

What is beyond dispute however is that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to Bowley's arrival at 1:10, shortly after which Bowley saw Tippit's body loaded in to an ambulance which took him to the hospital where he was declared DOA at 1:15, in the presence - according to their report - by DPD officers Davenport and Bardin.

For Markham to be wrong about the time she left home, Bowley also needs to be wrong about his time of arrival (which implicitely means he left his daughter waiting for him after school) and the hospital also must have gotten the time of the DOA wrong.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:16:59 PM
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Can you post this please?

Correction:  autopsy permit

(https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/metapth338334_l_dsma_91-001-1503054-3445_11.jpg)

Also, this has obviously been altered:

(https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/nish-report-funeral-home.png)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:20:09 PM
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Please explain the problem with the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:22:03 PM
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Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

Your assumption that they all saw the same man is unwarranted.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:27:08 PM
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 04:49:31 PM
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Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

There are no police tapes. All there are, are transcripts of recordings made with voice activated devices, making it impossible to verify actual times.

Yes, people do not get everything 100% right all the time. It is also possible that Markham got the time (1:15) wrong for catching the 1:12 bus!

What is beyond dispute however is that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to Bowley's arrival at 1:10, shortly after which Bowley saw Tippit's body loaded in to an ambulance which took him to the hospital where he was declared DOA at 1:15, in the presence - according to their report - by DPD officers Davenport and Bardin.

For Markham to be wrong about the time she left home, Bowley also needs to be wrong about his time of arrival (which implicitely means he left his daughter waiting for him after school) and the hospital also must have gotten the time of the DOA wrong.

Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

This is interesting Martin...  We know that TF Bowley arrived at 1:10 ( and there's no good reason to doubt that the time is reasonably accurate) And I believe he took a quick look at Tippit who was lying on the street, and then went to use Tippit's radio.  That time could have been anywhere between 1:10 and 1:12...

You say that Tippit's body was removed just after Bowley arrived ....  Is there verification for the time that the ambulance picked up Tippit's body?   It's difficult to believe that the ambulance could have arrived at the hospital at 1:15.   I wonder if the DOA of 1:15 was just a guess ....  Perhaps the ambulance attendants told the doctor that Tippit was dead when they picked him up.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 22, 2019, 07:54:47 PM
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(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)

See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 09:01:23 PM
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Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

This is interesting Martin...  We know that TF Bowley arrived at 1:10 ( and there's no good reason to doubt that the time is reasonably accurate) And I believe he took a quick look at Tippit who was lying on the street, and then went to use Tippit's radio.  That time could have been anywhere between 1:10 and 1:12...

You say that Tippit's body was removed just after Bowley arrived ....  Is there verification for the time that the ambulance picked up Tippit's body?   It's difficult to believe that the ambulance could have arrived at the hospital at 1:15.   I wonder if the DOA of 1:15 was just a guess ....  Perhaps the ambulance attendants told the doctor that Tippit was dead when they picked him up.

Walt,

Bowley said in his affidavit to the DPD that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit just after he had been on the radio.

The arrival of the ambulance at the hospital (which was not far away) and the DOA time is confirmed by the report of Davenport and Bardin, posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 09:06:55 PM
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See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 09:55:20 PM
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Walt,

Bowley said in his affidavit to the DPD that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit just after he had been on the radio.

The arrival of the ambulance at the hospital (which was not far away) and the DOA time is confirmed by the report of Davenport and Bardin, posted earlier in this thread.

Thank you Martin, ...I was not challenging your statement but my old mind doesn't work as good as it once did. And I had forgotten what Bowley said in his affidavit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 10:02:24 PM
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I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.

I believe that it was Sgt Gerald Hill who said that he left the TSBD immediately after he heard the radio report that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff.....And that report came over the radio just after the shells were found beneath the window.   ( The shells were found at 1:06 )  Hill said that the ambulance carrying Tippit's body passed in front of them as they exited the Houston street viaduct.   I believe that it would have taken less than five minutes to drive from the TSBD to the south side of the viaduct.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:33:42 AM
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See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

Or they are simply speaking in terms of rounding to the nearest fifteen minute interval versus being more precise.  Look at the three times mentioned in that offense report... 1:15, 1:30, 3:30.  Do you really believe all three of those events occurred at those exact times instead of the 15 minute rounding up/down?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:38:29 AM
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Correction:  autopsy permit

[img]https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/metapth338334_l_dsma_91-001-1503054-3445_11.jpg[/im


Correct, the autopsy permit, not the death certificate... but where does it say what you claimed it says, that Tippit "was DOA at the hospital at 1:15"?  I think you're wrong.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:40:16 AM
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Or they are simply speaking in terms of rounding to the nearest fifteen minute interval versus being more precise.  Look at the three times mentioned in that offense report... 1:15, 1:30, 3:30.  Do you really believe all three of those events occurred at exact 15 minute rounding up/down?

Another speculative hit and run.....

Follow that reasoning and you either have Tippit being declared DOA at 1:15 or 1:30......

Hang on, didn't Davenport state in his report that he witnessed that they tried to revive Tippit before declaring him DOA and that at 1:30 a bullet was already being removed from Tippit's body. I guess that rules out 1:30 as DOA time, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:41:04 AM
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My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

Doughty and Dhority.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:42:48 AM
Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

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Your assumption that they all saw the same man is unwarranted.

No, you're simply in denial.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:45:06 AM
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Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

No, you're simply in denial.

Or he simply accepts that eyewitness testimony (which is what you rely on) is the least unreliable evidence.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:48:47 AM
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I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.


Quote
There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11.

The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 01:08:40 AM
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The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

Actually, it's about 1,5 miles

Check out google maps and find out for yourself.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:17:53 AM
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Check out google maps and find out for yourself.

Does an Ambulance travel at the same speed as a car?
Does an Ambulance have the ability to run red lights?

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 01:24:39 AM
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Does an Ambulance travel at the same speed as a car?
Does an Ambulance have the ability to run red lights?

JohnM

Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:45:40 AM
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Doughty and Dhority.

Doughty and Dhority did not recover the alleged Davis shells from the crime scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:46:30 AM
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No, you're simply in denial.

You can claim that they all saw the same man, but you have no basis for that claim.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:50:09 AM
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Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

Quote
Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

Yep, in the middle of the day in the suburbs, there's always a lot of traffic!

JohnM


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:58:18 AM
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Correct, the autopsy permit, not the death certificate... but where does it say what you claimed it says, that Tippit "was DOA at the hospital at 1:15"?  I think you're wrong.

"Place of death: DOA Methodist Hospital"
"Date and time of death: 1:15 PM, November 22, 1963"

The actual death certificate says that he died at 1:15, but his injury occurred at 1:18.  Go figure...

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/tippit-death-cert.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:59:22 AM
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You can claim that they all saw the same man, but you have no basis for that claim.

Not only did they all see the same man, in fair line-ups they all identified Lee Harvey Oswald as that man.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 02:01:58 AM
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Not only did they all see the same man,

Still no basis for this claim.

Quote
in fair line-ups they all identified Lee Harvey Oswald as that man.

"fair line-ups".  LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 02:05:10 AM
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Still no basis for this claim.

That's a bizarre way to analyse the corroborated testimony but no worries, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 02:11:09 AM
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That's a bizarre way to analyse the corroborated testimony but no worries, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

There is no testimony that says that they all saw the same person.  In fact, they all gave different descriptions.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 02:33:20 AM
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Yep, in the middle of the day in the suburbs, there's always a lot of traffic!

JohnM

I take it this means you have no point.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 02:42:55 AM
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I take it this means you have no point.

Huh?, we're discussing your comparison of the speed of a car in 2019 to the speed of an Ambulance in 1963 and beyond your alluding to an unknown suburban lunchtime traffic jam, you're still no closer to proving your initial assumption. Try again.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 03:06:05 AM
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Huh?, we're discussing your comparison of the speed of a car in 2019 to the speed of an Ambulance in 1963 and beyond your alluding to an unknown suburban lunchtime traffic jam, you're still no closer to proving your initial assumption. Try again.

JohnM

We were discussing nothing of the kind, nor did I allude to a suburban lunchtime traffic jam, and there was no assumption on my part.

All I said was that according to google maps the distance between 10th street and the Methodist hospital on North Beckley is 1,5 miles and about a 7 minutes drive.

All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....

It's beyond me how that relates to Bill Brown's initial claim that an elusive time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson, which never was produced, allegedly showed that the call for an ambulance was received by the funeral home at 1:18 or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 03:16:57 AM
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All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....


I seriously don't have a dog in this hunt but your comparison of a car in 2019 to an Ambulance in 1963 is truly absurd and proves that you're not serious about solving anything.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 05:29:06 AM
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The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

Maybe their sirens weren't working
And they got a flat tire

 ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
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I seriously don't have a dog in this hunt but your comparison of a car in 2019 to an Ambulance in 1963 is truly absurd and proves that you're not serious about solving anything.

JohnM

There is no comparison of a car in 2019 to an ambulance in 1963. The distance between the location of Tippit's murder on 10th street and Methodist hospital on Beckley is the same now as it was then; 1,5 miles.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:39:29 PM
Heavy traffic at lunchtime on a Friday after the president is assassinated and schools and businesses are closing down?

What a bizarre notion.

 ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 05:44:58 PM
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Still no basis for this claim.

"fair line-ups".  LOL.

John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 06:46:55 PM
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Heavy traffic at lunchtime on a Friday after the president is assassinated and schools and businesses are closing down?

What a bizarre notion.

 ::)

Indeed, not to mention the total confusion and chaos after Kennedy's murder and law enforcement cars blasting sirens all over the place.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 07:30:47 PM
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John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Quote
Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 08:30:08 PM
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John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Poor dumb cop, eh...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 08:35:25 PM
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Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

 at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 08:39:19 PM
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Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 23, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
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Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.

from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 09:07:56 PM
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from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)

He's obviously not the person he (Benavides ) saw at murder scene.

Thank you, Gary, It's such a pleasure to read posts from intelligent, reasonable, and rational people. 

I'd like to add a bit more positive information....  Virtually all of the witnesses said the man removed the spent shells ONE AT A TIME as he walked away from the scene.  The gun that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald was a Smith & Wesson revolver .  Smith & Wesson revolvers are not unloaded by extracting one shell at a time ....   The Smith & Wesson is designed to remove all the shells at once with a single push of the extractor rod.    And the user hand is usually covered with burned gun powder.    Clearly the killer was NOT using a Smith and Wesson revolver.....So Lee Oswald could not have been the murderer.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
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Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
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OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

Bull.  Only one witness saw a shooter at all.

Quote
How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?

How should I know?  Seeing a guy holding a gun (or in some cases not even holding a gun) at a different location is not the same as seeing a shooter.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
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Why would they need to know what anybody else saw.

Because Bill Brown claimed that they all saw the same man.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 10:48:53 PM
Here's another.  Pronounced DOA at 1:15 pm.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 11:06:12 PM
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Bull.  Only one witness saw a shooter at all.

How should I know?  Seeing a guy holding a gun (or in some cases not even holding a gun) at a different location is not the same as seeing a shooter.

Let me simplify that question for you....Were there reports of more than one man at the Tippit murder scene who was seen with a gun in his hand?

The man ( Singular) with the gun was the killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 11:08:57 PM
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Let me simplify that question for you....Were there reports of more than one man at the Tippit murder scene who was seen with a gun in his hand?

The man ( Singular) with the gun was the killer.

How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 11:59:44 PM
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Here's another.  Pronounced DOA at 1:15 pm.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)

WAs FBI agent VE Drain there at methodist hospital ??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 12:05:34 AM
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WAs FBI agent VE Drain there at methodist hospital ??

I doubt it, but who said he signed the CSS form at the hospital?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 01:38:17 AM
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Because Bill Brown claimed that they all saw the same man.

There's no need for any given witness to know what had actually happened in order to be able to independently ID someone as being a man he saw at or near the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
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There's no need for any given witness to know what had actually happened in order to be able to independently ID someone as being a man he saw at or near the scene of the crime.

The question for those who have actually been paying attention is how does Bill Brown know that the witnesses saw the same man?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 24, 2019, 03:08:22 PM
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I doubt it, but who said he signed the CSS form at the hospital?

I also doubt it....Drain probably signed his name on the document when he received it from the DPD at MID-NIGHT  11 / 22 /63.....Thanks to Gary Craig's posting of Captain George M Doughty's  affidavit we have proof that the evidence, which included the 3 X 5 card ( CE 637)  was turned over to the  FBI at midnight.   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 04:11:32 PM
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I also doubt it....Drain probably signed his name on the document when he received it from the DPD at MID-NIGHT  11 / 22 /63.....

There's no reason to think so.  But that's completely irrelevant.  The point of posting that document was that it's yet another document that shows an earlier time for Tippit's death.  Try to focus.

Quote
Thanks to Gary Craig's posting of Captain George M Doughty's  affidavit we have proof that the evidence, which included the 3 X 5 card ( CE 637)  was turned over to the  FBI at midnight.   

What are you talking about?  Gary Craig didn't post an affidavit from Doughty.  What affidavit?

Sorry, Walt.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that CE637 was turned over to the FBI on 11/22.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 06:09:15 PM
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The question for those who have actually been paying attention is how does Bill Brown know that the witnesses saw the same man?

Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 06:16:53 PM
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Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)


you really are a dope.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 24, 2019, 06:17:24 PM
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There's no reason to think so.  But that's completely irrelevant.  The point of posting that document was that it's yet another document that shows an earlier time for Tippit's death.  Try to focus.

What are you talking about?  Gary Craig didn't post an affidavit from Doughty.  What affidavit?

Sorry, Walt.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that CE637 was turned over to the FBI on 11/22.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page
Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/drainevidence1.png)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 06:50:19 PM
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you really are a dope.

Name your shooter
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:51:52 PM
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Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself.

Then why did you butt in with yet another one of your irrelevancies?

I was responding to Bill Brown's claims that:

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Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

I never said that witnesses "would need to know what other possible witnesses saw".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
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https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page

Walt, that's not an affidavit, nor was it written by Doughty.

But regardless, it says nothing about an index card with a lift being given to the FBI on 11/22.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 07:01:55 PM
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Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)

Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention -- stop lying

And piggybacking the usual brown stuff from Brown doesn't make you look less of a redneck LN failure.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 07:16:58 PM
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Then why did you butt in with yet another one of your irrelevancies?

I was responding to Bill Brown's claims that:

I never said that witnesses "would need to know what other possible witnesses saw".

 Thumb1: like I said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:31:44 PM
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)

Oswald was seen in a jacket at the Tippit scene
An oversized jacket, I understand... nice big collar
Imagine the possibilities...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:39:27 PM
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Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention -- stop lying

And piggybacking the usual brown stuff from Brown doesn't make you look less of a redneck LN failure.

You talk the talk... now say something clever



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:47:20 PM
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Thumb1: like I said.

You said something?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2LbgfjQ/listen-cc.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 08:01:37 PM
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You talk the talk... now say something clever

Any news on your cotton fiber research?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 08:04:48 PM
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Oswald was seen in a jacket at the Tippit scene
An oversized jacket, I understand... nice big collar
Imagine the possibilities...

"Oswald was seen".  LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 08:09:13 PM
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you really are a dope.

You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 08:29:53 PM
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"Oswald was seen".  LOL.

Mystery Guest #2
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 08:39:45 PM
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You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!

Say something clever
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 10:21:19 PM
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You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!

 Thumb1: actually, it's just really bad stand-up, the orifice is the same though.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 25, 2019, 04:31:48 AM
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Thumb1: actually, it's just really bad stand-up, the orifice is the same though.

Go ahead... make my day
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:00:55 AM
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There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11.

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The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

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Actually, it's about 1,5 miles

Check out google maps and find out for yourself.

I did check it out and I got 1.1 miles.  Am I missing something?

Either way, you somehow believe it takes an ambulance, sirens blaring, seven minutes to go a mile and a half? (though I don't believe it's that far)

Please explain.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:02:54 AM
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Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

I haven't said that the ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:18.  Why lie?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:07:12 AM
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We were discussing nothing of the kind, nor did I allude to a suburban lunchtime traffic jam, and there was no assumption on my part.

All I said was that according to google maps the distance between 10th street and the Methodist hospital on North Beckley is 1,5 miles and about a 7 minutes drive.

All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....

It's beyond me how that relates to Bill Brown's initial claim that an elusive time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson, which never was produced, allegedly showed that the call for an ambulance was received by the funeral home at 1:18 or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....


Quote
...or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....

Again, I haven't made that claim.  Are you lying or sadly confused?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:08:58 AM
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John (Iacoletti), You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Well said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 08:36:58 AM
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When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

I haven't said that the ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:18.  Why lie?

When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

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My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

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Doughty and Dhority.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
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When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

 Thumb1:

Explain.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 08:43:47 AM
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Explain.

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Doughty and Dhority.

You explain...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
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What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

Both sisters each recovered one of Oswald's shells, but I suppose these are just more "women" liars, is there any "females" who gave evidence against Oswald that are believable or do you just hate women!

Jeanette found a empty shell [sic] that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. After the Police had left I found a empty shell [sic] in our yard. This is the same shell I gave to Detective Dhority [sic]. The man that was unloading the gun was the same man I saw tonight as number 2 man in a line up.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/vdavis.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 08:54:13 AM
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You explain...

So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 09:12:08 AM
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So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM

Thanks John.  Much appreciated and it means a lot to me coming from you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 09:16:29 AM
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So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

He's a known liar but why would he need your help?

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Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM

I'm less than impressed with what's left.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 09:44:12 AM
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He's a known liar but why would he need your help?

I'm less than impressed with what's left.

Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 10:46:35 AM
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Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM

Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
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Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Insulting Chapman and "watching him go down in flames" only reinforces my comments, Duh!

JohnM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 11:10:07 AM
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Insulting Chapman and "watching him go down in flames" only reinforces my comments, Duh!

JohnM

Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:18:44 AM
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Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.

The same rifle that Kleins sent was photographed with Oswald and was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints and matching shirt fibers.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6J5dSoCs3xw/maxresdefault.jpg)

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-69c81e708c3c0b6fc0ca879629564a24.webp)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 11:27:04 AM
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The same rifle that Kleins sent was photographed with Oswald and was was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints and matching shirt fibers.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6J5dSoCs3xw/maxresdefault.jpg)

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-69c81e708c3c0b6fc0ca879629564a24.webp)

JohnM

The same rifle that Kleins sent -- LOL
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
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The same rifle that Kleins sent -- LOL

Wow, again and again the same boring nothing response, you must be the life of the Party.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
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Wow, again and again the same boring nothing response, you must be the life of the Party.

JohnM

Show us your evidence to support your claim (hint: Von P crapped out, no help there).
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 25, 2019, 03:23:54 PM
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Both sisters each recovered one of Oswald's shells, but I suppose these are just more "women" liars, is there any "females" who gave evidence against Oswald that are believable or do you just hate women!

"Evidence against Oswald".  LOL.

Virginia also claimed she was 16.

But who said they lied about shells?  I asked what evidence you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene.

CE2011, p. 7:

On June 18, 1964, Special Agents Kenneth R. AIbert and Paul E. Wulff, Federal Bureau of Investigation, contacted Mrs. Troy (Barbara Jeanette) Davis at her residence, Kirk's Store, Route 2, Palestine Highway, Athens, Texas, at which time Special Agent Wulff exhibited to her four .38 Special cartridge cases, C47 - C50. Mrs. Davis stated on November 22, 1963, she resided at 400 East 10th Street, Dallas, Texas, and at approximately 2:00 PM or shortly thereafter she found a similar cartridge case in the front yard of her former residence. At the time she found the cartridge case, an unknown Dallas police officer was standing approximately five feet from her and she immediately gave the cartridge case to him. She cannot identify the cartridge case she found as being one of those exhibited to her.

. . .

On June 18, 1964, Special Agents Kenneth S. AIbert and Paul E. Wulff contacted Mrs. Charley Reagan (Virginia) Davis at 418 West Scott Street, Athens, Texas, at which time Special Agent Wulff exhibited to her four .38 special cartridge cases, C47 - C50. Mrs. Davis stated on November 22, 1963, she resided at 400 East 10th Street, Dallas, Texas, and at approximately 3:30 PM that date she found a cartridge case in the front yard of that residence which she furnished to an unidentified officer of the Dallas Police Department at approximately 6:00 PM that same date. She advised she was unable to identify the cartridge case she found as being one of the four exhibited to her.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 25, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
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Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.

Excellent point!....  Lee denied owning "A"  rifle...  not necessarily "THE" rifle.....    You can start by proving that he owned THE rifle. ( The Carcano C 2766)  and thereby verifying the bold statement that he lied. 

Good luck.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 25, 2019, 03:28:46 PM
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The same rifle that Kleins sent

LOL

Quote
was photographed with Oswald

LOL

Quote
and was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints

LOL

Quote
and matching shirt fibers.

LOL
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
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Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM

Here's one for Bill:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGNED-RUTH-HYDE-PAINE-3X5-INDEX-CARD-JFK-ASSASSINATION-/173979872610
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 25, 2019, 08:59:40 PM
Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald Tippit dead


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 25, 2019, 11:45:58 PM
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Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA.... :D

If Oswald was DOA at 1:15...   was he resurrected so he could be in the Texas Theater at 1:50 ??


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:56:37 PM
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Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 12:20:20 AM
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Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM

I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Or ...the man who shot him....  Benavides obviously was hesitant to rebuke the police, but he knew that Lee Oswald was NOT the man who shot Tippit, and he wanted to make that known....So he said "or the man who shot him".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 12:27:18 AM
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Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM

So desperate... it's pitiful

Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Care to tell us what "time manipulation" you are talking about?

Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

Actually, no I didn't. That's just one of your typical misrepresentations of the evidence. You just can't help yourself, can you now?


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It's a telling sign when a die hard LN finds himself confronted with information he can not counter with credible arguments. They will try every trick in the book, ranging from outright dismissal to ridicule, from trying to change the subject to muddy the waters and pretending not to understand and so on.

There's just one thing they will never ever do; enter into an open and honest discussion about the information that has been presented.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 26, 2019, 12:28:56 AM
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I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Or ...the man who shot him....  Benavides obviously was hesitant to rebuke the police, but he knew that Lee Oswald was NOT the man who shot Tippit, and he wanted to make that known....So he said "or the man who shot him".

Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 12:53:23 AM
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Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM


Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

Lee Oswald's mug shot on 11 /22/63 shows that the back of his head DID NOT appear to be flat....  His hair was totally different than the man who shot Tippit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 26, 2019, 01:05:01 AM
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Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

Lee Oswald's mug shot on 11 /22/63 shows that the back of his head DID NOT appear to be flat....  His hair was totally different than the man who shot Tippit.

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:

(http://harveyandlee.net/November/Jacket%20CE%20162.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tgh3sCw/back-jacket.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2019, 01:14:23 AM
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Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Re my donations, you've just insulted the admin, fool... buh-bye
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 26, 2019, 02:08:07 AM
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AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA.... :D

If Oswald was DOA at 1:15...   was he resurrected so he could be in the Texas Theater at 1:50 ??

FIXED IT  :)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 08:36:14 AM
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Here's one for Bill:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGNED-RUTH-HYDE-PAINE-3X5-INDEX-CARD-JFK-ASSASSINATION-/173979872610

No need.  I have a personalized letter sent to my home from her thanking me for getting her around last month while she was in Dallas.  Very nice woman.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 26, 2019, 09:38:44 AM
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No need.  I have a personalized letter sent to my home from her thanking me for getting her around last month while she was in Dallas.  Very nice woman.

Nice fetish, should bring you may hours of joy.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 02:46:13 PM
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FIXED IT  :)

That was and obvious error...., and funny....   I often omit the word "not"  ...As in Lee Could        have been on the sixth floor" which is not so obviously an error.

Just shows to go that we're human and      perfect ...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 26, 2019, 04:57:09 PM
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Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified

In unfair and biased lineups, by people who saw no crime committed.

Quote
and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon

Still false.

Quote
and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Manipulation is required to invent those “basics”.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 26, 2019, 05:00:18 PM
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Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


That’s not a confirmation or a positive ID. That’s called being influenced by the media.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 08:15:12 PM
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That’s not a confirmation or a positive ID. That’s called being influenced by the media.

Influenced by the media?....   Are you forgetting that Benavides had seen Lee Oswald lynched while in the custody of the DPD.  He had told the DPD on 11/22/63 that he got a really good look at Tippit's killer and he's seen the pictures of Lee Oswald on TV that afternoon , and he didn't think that Lee Oswald was the man he'd seen with the smoking gun at the Tippit murder scene.  Of course the cops didn't want to hear that so they didn't want him at any line up.  Benavides was smart enough to  chose his words carefully .... He had no desire to become an" accident" victim.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2019, 08:23:09 PM
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In unfair and biased lineups, by people who saw no crime committed.

Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 08:34:30 PM
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Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.

“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:39:23 PM
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“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule

Based on my observations, that is exactly what YOU do... over and over again.  I've seen it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:47:03 PM
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Nice fetish, should bring you may hours of joy.

 Thumb1:

Original research.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 09:51:33 PM
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Based on my observations, that is exactly what YOU do... over and over again.  I've seen it.

Which only tells us something about the quality of your "observations"....

Care to discuss the Markham/Bowley/Davenport/Methodist hospital timeline and tell me where I am wrong?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:59:31 PM
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Which only tells us something about the quality of your "observations"....

Care to discuss the Markham/Bowley/Davenport/Methodist hospital timeline and tell me where I am wrong?

First, explain to me why you're misquoting me.  I've never said that the ambulance arrived at Methodist at 1:18.  Why are you attributing that to me?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 10:41:19 PM
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First, explain to me why you're misquoting me.  I've never said that the ambulance arrived at Methodist at 1:18.  Why are you attributing that to me?

Where did I say that? If I did, I must have made a mistake, because I don't recall you ever said that.

You said that a time stamp card of the funeral home shows that the call for an ambulance was received at 1:18 PM.
You were going to find that time stamp card but you never produced it so I guess you did not find it.

So, let's (again) try to go back to basics;

Can you come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps you can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 11:27:34 PM
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How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 11:31:55 PM
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Where did I say that? If I did, I must have made a mistake, because I don't recall you ever said that.


You've said it more than once over the past few days.

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In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:05:18 AM
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You've said it more than once over the past few days.

Ah, so it's you who is cherry picking and misrepresenting what I said;

I replied to a post by Zeon Mason;

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I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record


my - complete - reply was;

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I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.

You then replied to my post;

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The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.


I then replied to a post by John Mytton about the speed of ambulances and sirens;

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Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....


"Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital" is a far cry from misquoting you..

I can not misquote you when you never said it. So why do you say I lie, when in fact I have argued that Zeon's recollection was wrong?

I see you are still playing word games rather than dealing with the content of posts. I seriously doubt that our renewed conversation will have a long life if that continues.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:08:29 AM
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Ah, so it's you who is cherry picking and misrepresenting what I said;

I replied to a post by Zeon Mason;

my - complete - reply was;

You then replied to my post;

I then replied to a post by John Mytton about the speed of ambulances and sirens;

"Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital" is a far cry from misquoting you..

I can not misquote you when you never said it. So why do you say I lie, when in fact I have argued that Zeon's recollection was wrong?

I see you are still playing word games rather than dealing with the content of posts. I seriously doubt that our renewed conversation may well be short lived if that continues.

You said it more than once, asshole.  You were wrong each time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:10:49 AM
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You said it more than once, asshole.  You were wrong each time.

I never said you said it, jerk

You're still the same dishonest waste of time I have come to know.... 

.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 12:21:05 AM
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“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule

Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:23:46 AM
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I never said you said it, jerk

This time you are the one who is wrong.

And the discussion is over again..... I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt, you are still as much a jackass as you were when we first discussed a topic.


You did say it, more than once... and therefore, I am not simply playing word games or cherry picking. 

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In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

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...or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....


Question...

How can you tell when Weidmann is beat?

Answer...

He falls back on the "word games" accusation.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:24:17 AM
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You did say it, more than once... and therefore, I am not simply playing word games or cherry picking. 


Question...

How can you tell when Weidmann is beat?

Answer...

He falls back on the "word games" accusation.

The question reveals Brown's true mindset.... This was not a game where one "beats" his opponent.

This was Brown lying about me having said that he said something, when I never did anything of the kind.

For Brown all this is, is about "winning" and his ego..... the true mark of a real highly insecure loser!

My decision to stay well clear of you in the past was the correct one and the one I am returning to after this post.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:29:27 AM
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The question reveals Brown's true mindset.... This was not a game where one "beats" his opponent.

This was Brown lying about me having said that he said something, when I never did anything of the kind.

For Brown all this is, is about "winning" and his ego..... the true mark of a real loser!

No.

This is about nothing more than me wishing to not be misquoted, which you did twice.

I asked you why you misquoted me.  Your response was to deny misquoting me and then to accuse me of playing word games and cherry-picking.  So, in addition to being wrong, you also try to switch it around and begin accusing me.  After your charade, I called you an asshole (which you were typically being) and you get your feelings hurt and lash out even more.

You misquoted me, TWICE.  No word games or cherry-picking on my part.

Get over yourself, asshole.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 12:31:12 AM
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Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!
And you're Mr Love and Affection? :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 12:42:34 AM
Everybody catch up...

(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)

Why are there a half dozen threads open on the same subject? Also... why change the subject after it's posted? Once and for all, someone cannot be shot to death and then pronounced officially dead at the very same time. The officer was not 'wounded'...he was dead. Also someone changed the time -it was 1:0 [something] ::)


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:49:26 AM
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My decision to stay well clear of you in the past was the correct one and the one I am returning to after this post.


(https://i.imgur.com/N9sX3Tl.gif)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 27, 2019, 01:51:47 AM
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No.

This is about nothing more than me wishing to not be misquoted, which you did twice.

I asked you why you misquoted me.  Your response was to deny misquoting me and then to accuse me of playing word games and cherry-picking.  So, in addition to being wrong, you also try to switch it around and begin accusing me.  After your charade, I called you an asshole (which you were typically being) and you get your feelings hurt and lash out even more.

You misquoted me, TWICE.  No word games or cherry-picking on my part.

Get over yourself, asshole.

If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 01:04:47 AM
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If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM

You really should leave pathetic strawman arguments to Richard Smith, John. He's far more experienced in it than you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:57:37 AM
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Influenced by the media?....   Are you forgetting that Benavides had seen Lee Oswald lynched while in the custody of the DPD.  He had told the DPD on 11/22/63 that he got a really good look at Tippit's killer and he's seen the pictures of Lee Oswald on TV that afternoon , and he didn't think that Lee Oswald was the man he'd seen with the smoking gun at the Tippit murder scene.

No he didn’t. That’s a Walt fabrication. He just said that he couldn’t make a positive ID.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:00:24 AM
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Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.

Is this your way of acknowledging that Callaway didn’t see a crime committed?

“12-15 feet away”. LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 02:01:04 AM
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If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM

That's right, John.

Bill Smith, Helen Markham, William Scoggins, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson.  Enough said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:09:37 AM
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Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

How about Warren Reynolds?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:13:51 AM
How can you tell when Bill Brown is beaten?

He starts playing word games and namecalling.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:19:41 AM
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If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with

LOL

Quote
and who leaves his jacket under a car

LOL

Quote
and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket

LOL

Quote
and who punches a cop

LOL

Quote
and then tries to kill more cops,

LOL

Quote
then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?,

How about some evidence that those claims are actually true?

Quote
Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake

Maybe because he wasn’t? Well done!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:23:25 AM
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That's right, John.

Bill Smith, Helen Markham, William Scoggins, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson.  Enough said.

Unfair, biased lineups and single photo identifications months after the fact in some cases. Enough said.

P.S. Bill Smith, LOL

WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH, age 20, 328 1/2 East 8th Street, was interviewed at the residence or his brother-in-law, TIMMIE ANZALDUA, 1831 Idaho Street, Dallas. He advised that he observed Officer TIPPIT when he was being shot by an unknown white male but he did not report it to the police because he claimed he had been on two year's probation for auto theft and he thought he might get in trouble with the police. He said he was too far away from the individual to positively identify him but he said he was a white male, about 5' 7" to 5'8", 20 to 25 years of age, 150-160, wearing a white shirt, light brown jacket and dark pants.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:26:50 AM
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LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

How about some evidence that those claims are actually true?

Maybe because he wasn’t? Well done!

John really needs to persue a career as a comedian.

Some sleezy down town bars in Sydney might even employ him... if only for a night
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 04:13:48 AM
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How about Warren Reynolds?

Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away? Or from across the street where the guy carrying the gun he ID'd as Oswald threw his jacket under a car in the gas station? That Warren Reynolds?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 04:21:55 AM
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You really should leave pathetic strawman arguments to Richard Smith, John. He's far more expecienced in it than you.
He's far more expecienced experienced in it than you. Fixed it :)
They all seem quite trollish...no experience necessary there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 05:13:22 AM
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Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?

Go back to sleep, Chapman.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 05:34:18 AM
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Go back to sleep, Chapman.

Poor dumb cop
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 06:05:23 AM
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Is this your way of acknowledging that Callaway didn’t see a crime committed?

“12-15 feet away”. LOL.

What difference does that make? He didn't have to see a crime committed to hear shots and ID Oswald as the guy carrying a gun.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:46:23 AM
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How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

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Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

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How about Warren Reynolds?

No.

Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:47:31 AM
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How can you tell when Bill Brown is beaten?

He starts playing word games and namecalling.

(https://i.imgur.com/89WBPht.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:51:10 AM
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Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.


The timeline....

TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was near Marsalis, Beckley and Tenth Street, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's call number and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:56:57 AM
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Unfair, biased lineups and single photo identifications months after the fact in some cases. Enough said.

P.S. Bill Smith, LOL

WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH, age 20, 328 1/2 East 8th Street, was interviewed at the residence or his brother-in-law, TIMMIE ANZALDUA, 1831 Idaho Street, Dallas. He advised that he observed Officer TIPPIT when he was being shot by an unknown white male but he did not report it to the police because he claimed he had been on two year's probation for auto theft and he thought he might get in trouble with the police. He said he was too far away from the individual to positively identify him but he said he was a white male, about 5' 7" to 5'8", 20 to 25 years of age, 150-160, wearing a white shirt, light brown jacket and dark pants.


Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:54:02 PM
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The timeline....

We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:55:31 PM
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Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

That’s almost as lame as claiming that Benavides “identified Oswald” because he said “Oswald or the guy who shot him” in his testimony.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:58:31 PM
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We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.

Indeed,

So, under no circumstance could you put any stock in the real world time references by the belt because there were no time references on the belt; they were only spoken times, and those spoken times had no faithful validity... - James C. Bowles, Communications Supervisor of the Dallas Police Department.


but it's no real surprise;

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It's a telling sign when a die hard LN finds himself confronted with information he can not counter with credible arguments. They will try every trick in the book, ranging from outright dismissal to ridicule, from trying to change the subject to muddy the waters and pretending not to understand and so on.

There's just one thing they will never ever do; enter into an open and honest discussion about the information that has been presented.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 27, 2019, 03:07:04 PM
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We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.

Haven't you learned that debating Bill Brown, Bill Crapman, Davey Von P, and any LNer is like debating with a Flat Earth believer ......   No matter how much evidence you present they will not accept the truth.   Primarily because they are cowards and are afraid to accept the truth.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 03:14:18 PM
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Haven't you learned that debating Bill Brown, Bill Crapman, Davey Von P, and any LNer is like debating with a Flat Earth believer ......   No matter how much evidence you present they will not accept the truth.   Primarily because they are cowards and are afraid to accept the truth.

Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 04:01:30 PM
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Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?

Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 27, 2019, 04:04:06 PM
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Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?

Martin, Do you really believe that those who have the ability to reason, can't see for themselves, that these guys are dishonest and will never ever stop lying?...

P.S  Martin there are only a few members of this forum that I respect.....  Those are the few who can see the truth ( thattThe authorities framed and lynched Lee Oswald)   And you are high on my list.    However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW......   So I can't understand why you can't see the BS ruse that the FBI and the DPD created so they could confirm the Key conspirator's ( Henry Wade )lie  about  finding  quote... "his prints on the gun"

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano....But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens)
 and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 05:19:49 PM
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Martin, Do you really believe that those who have the ability to reason, can't see for themselves, that these guys are dishonest and will never ever stop lying?...

P.S  Martin there are only a few members of this forum that I respect.....  Those are the few who can see the truth ( thattThe authorities framed and lynched Lee Oswald)   And you are high on my list.    However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW......   So I can't understand why you can't see the BS ruse that the FBI and the DPD created so they could confirm the Key conspirator's ( Henry Wade )lie  about  finding  quote... "his prints on the gun"

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano....But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens)
 and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.


Walt,

However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW...... 

It's not so much that I don't understand your argument. I also understand the counter argument and quite honestly I simply do not have enough information to make a well balanced, objective and factual determination either way. I try to only have opinions about things I know enough about. That's why I stayed clear of the conversation after asking the questions I wanted answers for.

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano

The FBI did indeed not find any prints on the rifle on 11/23/63. They could not even find a trace of a print having been lifted from the rifle, which, in mind, calls into question the tale Day came up with.

But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens) and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.

Actually, I'm not so sure about that. Wade's lie (that prints belonging to Oswald had been found on the rifle, when they weren't) is just one of many false and incorrect statements made by law enforcement officials in the first days. I don't think any particular falsehood or error would have been decisive in convicting Oswald in the court of public opinion.

Can we now please return to the topic of this thread; being "Tippit's shooting 1:15"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 05:45:57 PM
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The timeline....
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15... Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.   
Of course, Ms Wright had them on speed dial and they answer on the first ring :D
 
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We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.
Sounds more like the slimeline to me :-\   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 01:54:24 AM
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Go back to sleep, Chapman.

Wake up and stop dodging, Iacoletti.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 28, 2019, 02:09:15 AM
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Can we now please return to the topic of this thread; being "Tippit's shooting 1:15"?
Except that Mr Brown insists on opening multiple threads on the same topic. Then his fellow ODIA theorists chime in by changing the subject.
At the risk of seeming redundant myself-----Tippit's shooting had to be much earlier. Evidence here......
  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,697.msg65703.html#new
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:32:42 AM
Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:44:39 AM
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Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.

 :'(

And by the way, why do you have a need to change people's minds?
What fear drives that need?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:53:39 AM
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That’s almost as lame as claiming that Benavides “identified Oswald” because he said “Oswald or the guy who shot him” in his testimony.

Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 03:34:34 AM
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Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.

No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 28, 2019, 03:50:36 AM
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No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.

First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 28, 2019, 04:00:20 AM
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First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM

So, if Benavides was so sure, why did he not participate in the line up identifications? Seems a critical witness......

Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell.

Stupid question... Benavides saw Oswald's picture in the media and that's also how he knew his name.... It's not as if they cared about Oswald's privacy back then!

And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Bla bla bla... don't you ever get tired of your own crap?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:15:01 AM
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Wake up and stop dodging, Iacoletti.

I’m not dodging anything. You piped in with one of your irrelevancies without reading the thread.

Again.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:16:32 AM
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:'(

And by the way, why do you have a need to change people's minds?
What fear drives that need?

When did I say I wanted to change anybody’s mind? In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re just not very good at this, are you?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:17:30 AM
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Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.

At the time of his testimony?  :D

The hits just keep coming!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:20:42 AM
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First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw,

No, he said he “figured” it was Oswald”, whatever that means. On 11/22, he said he didn’t think he could identify him.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 05:01:30 PM
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First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM

how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, \
Huh?   Nobody has suggested that Benavides knew the name of the killer.....  Benavides  simply said "OR the guy that shot him," which means he knew the guy was not Lee Oswald......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 05:22:50 PM
At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

Some “identification”.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
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When did I say I wanted to change anybody’s mind? In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re just not very good at this, are you?

Stop squirming... and why do you attempt, for instance, to push your atheism down people's throats if you don't want to change people's minds? You have the same attitude here.

You said:
"Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 05:36:55 PM
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At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

Some “identification”.

At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

IMO I think Benavides is saying, " I know that popular belief, and the news media,  says that the man was Oswald, but I saw the man face to face, and he was not the man that I saw later that day on TV.   

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 05:54:53 PM
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At the time of his testimony?  :D
>>> in reference to his situation on scene at the time

The hits just keep coming!
>>> My condolences; you are definitely punch-drunk


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 06:14:16 PM
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No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.

 ::)

Stop changing your tune. You've claimed an alternate shooter all along
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
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I’m not dodging anything. You piped in with one of your irrelevancies without reading the thread.

Again.

Reply #301 Iacoletti:
Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.


>>> 'You're not ever going to change their minds'

Keep dodging, Slick..

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
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Stop squirming...

I’m not squirming. You foolishly thought I said that Reynolds was 2 blocks away from the man he saw. Because you don’t read and understand threads before you chime in.

Quote
and why do you attempt, for instance, to push your atheism down people's throats if you don't want to change people's minds? You have the same attitude here.

Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.

Quote
You said:
"Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching".

Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 06:51:55 PM
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::)

Stop changing your tune. You've claimed an alternate shooter all along

Yes, that's a fact..... I've always said that Lee Oswald was NOT the killer.    So I don't know why you think I'm "changing my tune"
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 29, 2019, 02:50:26 AM
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How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

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Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

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How about Warren Reynolds?

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No.

Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.


So which witness was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 04:21:08 AM
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Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.

Thanks. The point is the same.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 05:00:43 AM
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Yes, that's a fact..... I've always said that Lee Oswald was NOT the killer.    So I don't know why you think I'm "changing my tune"

You've said a lot of things
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 06:12:50 AM
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I’m not squirming. You foolishly thought I said that Reynolds was 2 blocks away from the man he saw. Because you don’t read and understand threads before you chime in.
>>> Tell us what your '2 blocks' refers to

Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.
>>> Where did I say you used those exact words. 

Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
>>> That's a two-way street
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 29, 2019, 02:32:10 PM
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>>> That's a two-way street
Is that a 100% chance that it probably is a two way street? :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 02:44:32 PM
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>>> Tell us what your '2 blocks' refers to

How far the witness was from the crime, which Bill Brown helpfully corrected. Which you would have known if you had read and understood the conversation before chiming in.

Quote
Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.
>>> Where did I say you used those exact words. 

No, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Cite me ever doing that. And quote the exact words I used in allegedly doing so.

Quote
Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
>>> That's a two-way street

Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong when you assumed that I had a need to change people’s minds? Or is this going to be another one of your hit and runs?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 29, 2019, 07:18:26 PM
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'none of it has ever panned out'
... for you. My condolences.

Meanwhile, Walt's fabrications have earned him a lengthy list of things he's said

Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 10:12:14 PM
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Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.

I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 04:36:10 AM
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How far the witness was from the crime, which Bill Brown helpfully corrected. Which you would have known if you had read and understood the conversation before chiming in.
>>> I know what your '2 blocks' referred to. And you exaggerated the distance on purpose.

No, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Cite me ever doing that. And quote the exact words I used in allegedly doing so.
>>> Review your comments on TAE

Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong when you assumed that I had a need to change people’s minds? Or is this going to be another one of your hit and runs?
>>> Your rabid support of atheism speaks volumes
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 30, 2019, 02:04:27 PM
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>>> I know what your '2 blocks' referred to.

You didn’t when you said:

“Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”

Quote
>>> Review your comments on TAE

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Yet another empty claim.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 30, 2019, 06:37:08 PM
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I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)

Yes, we have seen the list :D

But Walt makes some good points none the less :)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 09:46:58 PM
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Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.

And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 10:09:37 PM
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You didn’t when you said: “Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”
>>> I didn't need to know the exact number of blocks. My automatic reaction to anything you say is permanently steeped in mistrust.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Yet another empty claim.
>>> Stay tuned..

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 31, 2019, 12:18:56 AM
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You didn’t when you said: “Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”
>>> I didn't need to know the exact number of blocks. My automatic reaction to anything you say is permanently steeped in mistrust.

Nice backpedal. Just don’t misrepresent what I say — whether you agree with it or not.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 31, 2019, 12:21:33 AM
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I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)

Actually, Walter is right about this one, except light hitting a white surface in shadow will appear purple, not blue:

WF29: The ticket booth is not in the sunlight.....it is in the shade, therefore it appears blue
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 31, 2019, 09:22:05 PM
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Actually, Walter is right about this one, except light hitting a white surface in shadow will appear purple, not blue:

WF29: The ticket booth is not in the sunlight.....it is in the shade, therefore it appears blue

Doesn't it depend on the film in the camera?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 03, 2019, 04:44:26 AM

Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 03, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
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Nice backpedal. Just don’t misrepresent what I say — whether you agree with it or not.

How about you not misrepresent a one-block distance as being two blocks, cheater...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 03, 2019, 10:09:31 PM
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Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there.You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 03, 2019, 11:23:12 PM
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You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there.You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

His Landlady (Mrs Roberts) at 1026 N. Beckley said that she saw Lee standing on the side walk in front of the rooming house at about 1:04.  ( Mrs Roberts said that Lee arrived at 1:00 pm and the WC confirmed that time of arrival. Mrs Roberts said that lee was in his room several minutes and then departed. ( Time about 1:04)  Mrs Markham said that she saw the man who shot Tippit walking east on 10th street a couple of minutes before she witnessed the man shoot Tippit at 1:06.

These are FACTS Mr Hardaker.....  And here's another Fact....

The witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME....

The Smith and Wesson revolver is not unloaded ONE SHELL AT A TIME..... The S&W is unloaded by swinging thw cylinder out of the frame ans unloading all six chambers AT ONCE.....  Tippits killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.    The revolver that allegedly was taken from Lee at the Theater was a Smith & Wesson.....

Deal with reality Mr Hardaker.....







 

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 03, 2019, 11:43:44 PM
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You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there. You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, all you are really interested in is keeping Oswald inside the timeframe, regardless of facts or reason?

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

True, but I think I can safely say that it wasn't at super sonic speed or the speed of sound, just in case you ever want to go there.

Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe.

Get your fact straight. I did not say that Oswald couldn't be there. I actually said; "which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there". There is a difference!

But I'll answer your misguided comment anyway, with some facts (you know what they are, right?). The actual distance between the two locations requires a certain minimal amount of walking time at a normal human walking pace. Gary Mack once did a trial (it's on Youtube), and concluded that the fastest route required a minimum of 11 minutes. So, if Tippit, as the combined timeline in my previous post suggests, was indeed killed before 1.10, Oswald would have had to have left the roominghouse at the latest, at around 12:58, which is - if Earlene Roberts is to be believed - impossible as she said Oswald walked in just before the 1 o'clock news came on the television. So, yeah, even if I didn't, I could indeed make that statement. You may not like it, but there it is, nevertheless!

Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus.

Indeed, and that's exactly what my argument is, except she said she normally catched the bus at 1.15. But go from there and everything else in the timeline I provided falls into place. Once we agree that Tippit was most likely killed before 1:10 we can start discussing who could have been there at that time or not!

And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later.

With a minimal walking time of 11 minutes and not leaving the roominghouse until after the 1 o'clock news came on? No, he couldn't!

But that's just my opinion. Why don't you provide your argument that shows that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton at 1.08 or slightly later? Can you do that?

Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene.

At an unfair biased line up and under massive police pressure and media exposure? Any law enforcement officer will tell you that witness testimony is the least reliable type of evidence. And very often witness testimony is proven wrong when it is established that a suspect could not have been at the crime scene at the time of the crime. The circular argument of "Oswald was there because Oswald was there" doesn't fly. It's not a logical fallacy for nothing!

None of the Tippit witnesses have ever been cross-examined under oath. Had they have been, they would IMO have been completely destroyed by a competent defense lawyer. Yet, you are so fair and balanced  ;) that you take their words as gospel. Why is that?

Can't you stand the idea of possibly being wrong? Mark Twain once said; "It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled". Does that perhaps apply to you as well?

You can't say he wasn't there.

I didn't say he wasn't (although I do indeed believe it is likely that he wasn't). I said it's nearly impossible for him to be have been there if Tippit was indeed killed before 1:10.

You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

The timeline I provided in my previous post has actually very little to do with Oswald. It has to do with the most likely time Tippit was actually killed, which you have not addressed at all. All you seem to be concerned with is getting Oswald at the scene on time to be there to do the deed. What's next; are you going to argue he flew there?

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, this is the the classic "I'm right unless you can prove me wrong" LN fallacy again, is it? If you are so sure Oswald did in fact have the time to get from the rooming house to the crime scene, why don't you just shut me up by providing a plausible argument to support your position?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 04:12:01 AM
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How about you not misrepresent a one-block distance as being two blocks, cheater...

Says the guy who claimed that Callaway was 12-15 feet away from a guy carrying a gun.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 04, 2019, 05:56:12 AM
At least this freak makes you think


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ted Shields on November 04, 2019, 10:40:08 AM
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I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

His Landlady (Mrs Roberts) at 1026 N. Beckley said that she saw Lee standing on the side walk in front of the rooming house at about 1:04.  ( Mrs Roberts said that Lee arrived at 1:00 pm and the WC confirmed that time of arrival. Mrs Roberts said that lee was in his room several minutes and then departed. ( Time about 1:04)  Mrs Markham said that she saw the man who shot Tippit walking east on 10th street a couple of minutes before she witnessed the man shoot Tippit at 1:06.

These are FACTS Mr Hardaker.....  And here's another Fact....

The witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME....

The Smith and Wesson revolver is not unloaded ONE SHELL AT A TIME..... The S&W is unloaded by swinging thw cylinder out of the frame ans unloading all six chambers AT ONCE.....  Tippits killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.    The revolver that allegedly was taken from Lee at the Theater was a Smith & Wesson.....

Deal with reality Mr Hardaker.....

What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 04, 2019, 12:44:15 PM
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What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?


Identifying a person you've only seen for seconds isn't as easy as it is sometimes made out to be.
It's not uncommon for witnesses to act in good faith and still misidentify a person placed in front of them.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 04, 2019, 05:27:39 PM
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Says the guy who claimed that Callaway was 12-15 feet away from a guy carrying a gun.

BFD, I made an honest mistake: William Scoggins was the guy who saw Oswald up close
Callaway saw him from across the street, ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot

Poor dumb cop
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 06:56:02 PM
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BFD, I made an honest mistake

So when you screw up it’s a BFD “honest mistake”, but when I get something wrong, I’m a “cheater” who “misrepresents”.

I think what that makes you is a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 04, 2019, 07:39:40 PM
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BFD, I made an honest mistake: William Scoggins was the guy who saw Oswald up close
Callaway saw him from across the street, ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot

Poor dumb cop

Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   And FYI  the question about the ownership of that Jacket has never been resolved.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 04, 2019, 08:59:47 PM
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What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?

What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?

Don't be silly....  I doubt that any of the witnesses who identified Lee Oswald as the killer were "lying"  .....  Apparently there was a resemblance between the killer and Lee Oswald, so they could easily have been mistaken in there identification.   But the one person who saw the killer face to face (Domingo Benavides)  DID NOT Identify the man as Lee Oswald.   As a matter of FACT.....  Benavides DESCRIBED the killer's hair cut.....  and Lee Oswald did NOT have his hair cut in the fashion described by Benavides.   And what's more....virtually all of the witnesses at the scene described the killer as walking away and unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME.  A Smith & Wesson revolver is NOT unloaded in the fashion described by the witnesses.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 04, 2019, 09:44:27 PM
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So when you screw up it’s a BFD “honest mistake”, but when I get something wrong, I’m a “cheater” who “misrepresents”.

I think what that makes you is a hypocrite.

Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 04, 2019, 10:24:10 PM
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Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.

When somebody starts saying stuff like that, it usually means they've lost the argument and know it.

Oh yeah, before you say it; you don't trust me either, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 04, 2019, 10:31:10 PM
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What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene?
That much alone is a good question because the shooter didn't just vanish. The cops were searching a library or church[?] where a suspect was reported entering but then they were called off for some reason. What ever happened to that guy? There were other observers not mentioned in the police reports who saw a shooter or at least a fleeing suspect. Their descriptions were either not helpful or not wanted.
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Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.
This sounds like a personal problem :(
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:13 PM
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Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   And FYI  the question about the ownership of that Jacket has never been resolved.

It was yet another "honest mistake by Chapman. He does seem to make an awful lot of them.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 10:36:00 PM
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Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   

Another “honest mistake”, no doubt.

Probably.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 10:38:55 PM
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Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.

Who cares? You can either back up your claims with evidence or you cannot.

How many “honest mistakes” do you get to be caught out on before you are unreliable?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 05, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
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Another “honest mistake”, no doubt.

Probably.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 05, 2019, 01:39:40 AM
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Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

He had ditched his jacket.

Pray tell, how did Callaway know that?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 05, 2019, 11:25:22 PM
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Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

But you claimed that Callaway saw him ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 06, 2019, 04:53:20 AM
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But you claimed that Callaway saw him ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot.

Somebody said Oswald didn't ditch his jacket?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 06, 2019, 08:12:34 AM
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Somebody said Oswald didn't ditch his jacket?

For once in your life, man, please try to write something that actually makes sense!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 06, 2019, 12:59:42 PM
So much for being honest.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 06, 2019, 03:21:22 PM
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So much for being honest.

Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 06, 2019, 04:33:24 PM
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Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

But when exactly did Callaway see somebody ditch a jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot?  It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 06, 2019, 06:35:07 PM
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But when exactly did Callaway see somebody ditch a jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot?  It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.

It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.

Actually, no he can't. His ego won't let him.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 06, 2019, 09:32:13 PM
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Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

Let's assume that Mrs Robert's was correct when she said that she saw Lee leaving the rooming house and he was donning a jacket as he left.

The next time that we see Lee Oswald ( positive ID)  is when he is dragged from the theater....He has no jacket.   But isn't it logical that he would remove his Jacket in the theater?  It was reported that he moved from seat to seat prior to the start of the movie....  Could he simply have left his jacket in the seat next to his when he changed seats and forgot to take it with him when he changed seats?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on November 06, 2019, 10:58:55 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/darkcomplectedman.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:38:08 PM
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/darkcomplectedman.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)

It certainly could be the same jacket......
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 07, 2019, 07:52:03 PM
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Let's assume that Mrs Robert's was correct when she said that she saw Lee leaving the rooming house and he was donning a jacket as he left.

The next time that we see Lee Oswald ( positive ID)  is when he is dragged from the theater....He has no jacket.   But isn't it logical that he would remove his Jacket in the theater?  It was reported that he moved from seat to seat prior to the start of the movie....  Could he simply have left his jacket in the seat next to his when he changed seats and forgot to take it with him when he changed seats?

Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
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Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 07, 2019, 11:51:33 PM
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Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....

Brewer was talking about when he saw the funny-looking guy at the store
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 09, 2019, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:05:14 PM 
Quote
Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....
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Brewer was talking about when he saw the funny-looking guy at the store
 « Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:18:03 PM by Bill Chapman »
Huh?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
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Quote from: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:05:14 PM   Huh?

Huh??    What the hell is Chappie talking about??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 05:10:12 PM
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Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Psssst Chappie.....You're ass- u- me  ing that the man that Johnny Jump Up, saw was Lee Oswald.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 10, 2019, 10:12:06 PM
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Psssst Chappie.....You're ass- u- me  ing that the man that Johnny Jump Up, saw was Lee Oswald.....

An assumption?  LOL   You're cute.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 11:55:56 PM
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An assumption?  LOL   You're cute.

Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

I'd accept your statement IF Brewer KNEW  Lee Oswald......  So do you have any information that Brewer knew and recognized Lee Oswald??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 11, 2019, 01:22:05 AM
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Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

I'd accept your statement IF Brewer KNEW  Lee Oswald......  So do you have any information that Brewer knew and recognized Lee Oswald??

Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 01:47:12 AM
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Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.

Yes.... And Helen Markham said that Lee was the man that she saw shoot Tippit, and she knew that because when she saw him in a line up with three other men who couldn't possibly  pass for 23 years old, she felt cold chills run all over her.... Soooo ...How did Brewer KNOW that Lee Oswald was the man?....He'd been through the theater twice looking for the man and he had to have seen Lee Oswald ...but when he reported back to Julia Postal he told her after looking for the man " he just wasn't there"...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 11, 2019, 03:00:24 AM
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Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 11, 2019, 07:58:53 AM
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Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

John,

Should Brewer have said, "I watched him walk into the recessed area in front of the theater where he disappeared from my view. When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
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John,

Should Brewer have said, "I watched him walk into the recessed area in front of the theater where he disappeared from my view. When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?

--  MWT  ;)

When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 02:51:24 PM
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Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.

When??  When?? I say WHEN....Did Brewer first identify  Lee Oswald as the man that he said was window shopping at his Shoe store?

Brewer went through the theater( twice)  searching for the man and he then told Julia Postal that man was not in the theater. .....  Brewer couldn't have missed seeing Lee Oswald when he searched the theater and yet he told Postal that the man who had ducked into the theater foyer was NOT in the theater.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 11, 2019, 04:05:03 PM
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When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....

Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 04:39:33 PM
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Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

True....  in 1996 Brewer told Ian Griggs that after the man who was window shopping at his shoe store left his foyer he ( Brewer) stepped out onto the sidewalk to see where the man was going. Brewer said that he saw the man enter the foyer of the theater and then he went back inside his store to lock up.   A couple of minutes later he asked "Julie" if she had sold the man a ticket....and she replied"what man?"   She had been distracted by the police cars and never even noticed a man in the foyer.   And Furthermore Butch Burroughs said that nobody had entered the theater during the few minutes prior to Brewer bursting into the lobby acting like Dick Tracy....

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 04:45:25 PM
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Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.

Brewer told Ian Griggs that he returned to the shoe store and his IBM friends had locked up the store....   ( I don't believe it....He had been gone from the store for only a couple of minutes, and his pals locked up the store??   Did they have the keys to the store??   )  I've read somewhere that Brewer said that he returned to the store and put up a "closed" sign and locked the store......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 05:09:45 PM
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Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.

One of the most incredible parts of Brewer's tale concerns the size of Lee Oswald....  Brewer described him as a "little guy" of about 5' 9" and 150 pounds ...And Brewer told ian Griggs that had known officer Nick Mc Donald for about six months, and Mc Donald "was no little Guy"  ....( we all seen photos of Mc Donald so we know that he was at least 4 inches taller than Lee Oswald, and outweighed him by at least a hundred pounds ...And yet Brewer tells us that the scrawny little guy provoked a fight with the not so jolly giant, by punching at him when Mc Donald confronted Lee in the theater.   Watta whopper!....  Brewer himself said that Lee was telling everybody in the theater that he was not resisting arrest....   If Lee had punched at McDonald that most certainly would have constituted "resisting arrest"... and Lee would probably been unconscious and unable to protest that he wasn't resisting arrest....  This bit a pugilism is nothing but a figment of Brewer's imagination..... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 11, 2019, 08:21:25 PM
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When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....

Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 03:18:09 AM
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And Brewer told ian Griggs that had known officer Nick Mc Donald for about six months,

So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 12, 2019, 04:06:36 AM
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So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

John,

Yes !!!

They probably spoke with each other to make sure they were "on the same page" !!!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 02:42:30 PM
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Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)

Yes.... They have made a point to make it appear that Burroughs was busy behind the concession counter and didn't notice the man sneak by him...  BULL STUFF!

The "scared man" of Brewer's account never entered the theater....    And as I recall Burroughs said that he sold Lee Oswald a bag of popcorn about the time the movie was starting...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 05:32:20 PM
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So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

Yes indeed....Can you imagine the scrawny 131 pound Lee Oswald hitting the 250 pound police officer, Nick Mc Donald and knocking him back?

What utter nonsense....  But that's what Brewer said happened...  But ....Keep in mind that Johnny  Brewer also said that he had heard about the shooting of a police officer on the radio before 1:30pm....     So his words should be taken with at least a pinch of salt....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 05:55:41 PM
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Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

No.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:15:15 PM
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So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

 ::)

Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN - You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN - Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
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Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)

Mr. Ball.
Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs.
Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
Ian Griggs - So they grab you, put a gun on you and what did you do?  You tell them what?
Johnny Brewer - Basically, that I'm on your side.  The person that you're here for is out there.  I knew Officer McDonald.  I'd known him for several months.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 07:23:25 PM
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Mr. Ball.
Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs.
Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

"I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him"

If Oswald had "sneaked up the stairs real fast", he would have been in the balcony.  Right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:31:09 PM
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Yes.... And Helen Markham said that Lee was the man that she saw shoot Tippit, and she knew that because when she saw him in a line up with three other men who couldn't possibly  pass for 23 years old, she felt cold chills run all over her.... Soooo ...How did Brewer KNOW that Lee Oswald was the man?....He'd been through the theater twice looking for the man and he had to have seen Lee Oswald ...but when he reported back to Julia Postal he told her after looking for the man " he just wasn't there"...

Again: Why would he have to know the guy's name?
He was looking to ID the guy he saw at the store.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 07:46:22 PM
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::)

Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN - You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN - Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.

Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Chap, Are you so naive that you actually believe this?    Question....  IF you actually believe LHO had actually punched Mc Donald....   Perhaps you can think of a reason that Lee would have wanted to commit suicide by cop.....  But I'd remind you that at the same time that Lee was allegedly punching a 250 pound police officer he was declaring that he was NOT RESISTING ARREST.    Do you see any conflict here?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
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"I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him"

If Oswald had "sneaked up the stairs real fast", he would have been in the balcony.  Right?

Burroughs didn't see the guy

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 07:56:37 PM
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Burroughs didn't see the guy

Burroughs didn't see the guy

That's correct.... And the reason Burroughs didn't see the guy was because the "scared man" did not enter the theater.....Brewer saw him enter the theater foyer and then he went back to the shoe store....

But Burroughs said that he had sold Lee a bag of popcorn at about the time the movie started which would have been about 15 or 20 minutes before Brewer saw the scared man enter the foyer.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 11:12:15 PM
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Yes.... They have made a point to make it appear that Burroughs was busy behind the concession counter and didn't notice the man sneak by him...  BULL STUFF!

The "scared man" of Brewer's account never entered the theater....    And as I recall Burroughs said that he sold Lee Oswald a bag of popcorn about the time the movie was starting...

From memory, Burroughs didn't say anything about selling the guy any popcorn in his testimony
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 11:32:03 PM
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Ian Griggs - So they grab you, put a gun on you and what did you do?  You tell them what?
Johnny Brewer - Basically, that I'm on your side.  The person that you're here for is out there.  I knew Officer McDonald.  I'd known him for several months.

Mr. Brewer: I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me..

Where did they 'put a gun' on Brewer..

I'll go with what Brewer said under oath 3-4 months after the fact rather than decades later



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 12, 2019, 11:56:36 PM
Timeline
======
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:50 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Not only did the DPD solve the case in 1.25 hrs, but they apprehended LHO only 34 mins after he shot Tippit. But the most impressive feat was how LHO shoots Tippit, flees the scene and suddenly a cop shows up, checks on Tippit to confirm that he is dead, interviews a witness for the suspect's description, gets on the horn and broadcasts the description to the rest of the force...wait for it...all in 6 minutes!!!

Damn, those DPD must have been supercops!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 13, 2019, 12:08:53 AM
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Timeline
======
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:50 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Not only did the DPD solve the case in 1.25 hrs, but they apprehended LHO only 34 mins after he shot Tippit. But the most impressive feat was how LHO shoots Tippit, flees the scene and suddenly a cop shows up, checks on Tippit to confirm that he is dead, interviews a witness for the suspect's description, gets on the horn and broadcasts the description to the rest of the force...wait for it...all in 6 minutes!!!

Damn, those DPD must have been supercops!

1st off....   Tippit was shot at 1:06....NOT 1:16.....

2nd.... The description of Tippit's killer did NOT fit Lee Oswald well enough to select him from about 1000 other young men in Dallas....

3rd....Lee DID NOT enter the theater at about 1:40..... He was already in the theater when the movie started..... Burroughs sold him a bag of popcorn when the movie was just starting (about 1:15 )
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 13, 2019, 12:28:29 AM
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Perhaps you can think of a reason that Lee would have wanted to commit suicide by cop..... 

"My fondest dreams are shattered because of a petty official; because of bad planning. I planned too much! 7.00 P.M. I decide to end it. Soak wrist in cold water to numb the pain. Then slash my left wrist. Then plug wrist into bathtub of hot water. I think "when Rima comes at 8 to find me dead, it will be a great shock." Somewhere, a violin plays, as I watch my life whirl away. I think to myself, "how easy to die" and a sweet death, (to violins)."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxh7XgRp/Oswald-walker-note-11.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 13, 2019, 12:30:58 AM
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1st off....   Tippit was shot at 1:06....NOT 1:16.....

2nd.... The description of Tippit's killer did NOT fit Lee Oswald well enough to select him from about 1000 other young men in Dallas....

3rd....Lee DID NOT enter the theater at about 1:40..... He was already in the theater when the movie started..... Burroughs sold him a bag of popcorn when the movie was just starting (about 1:15 )

For the record, would you pls repost my timeline with your numbers?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 13, 2019, 05:15:38 PM
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For the record, would you pls repost my timeline with your numbers?

1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.


Using this timeline.....If Lee Oswald had been the man who murdered JD Tippit.....  It took him 12 minutes to travel more than a mile from the rooming house past the Tippit murder site and double back and then shoot Tippit after talking through the car window for a couple of minutes.   ( A period of time when he would have had no reason to be dashing down the streets)

But AFTER the shooting ( a period when he would want to put as much distance between himself and the murder site ) It took him 24 minutes to travel less than half the distance that had taken him 12 minutes to travel......

I think you need to rethink  the scenario.....