JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:16:22 AM

Title: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:16:22 AM
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was near Marsalis, Beckley and Tenth Street, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's call number and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 06:33:32 AM
Murray Jackson doesn't call out for "78" if he's already aware that Tippit has been shot.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 05, 2019, 07:36:33 AM
Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Interestingly, Myers doesn’t bother to mention that at the same time, Mary’s husband Frank is watching a man standing right in front of the police car getting into a gray coupe and driving off.

Quote
Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the front door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

Davis didn’t say immediately. For one thing, she put her shoes on first.

Quote
L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

But in an FBI report made 7 months earlier, Lewis says that he watched a man go down Patton and turn on Jefferson before going back into the office and calling the police.

Quote
Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio". 

This timestamp all depends on the integrity of the extant dictabelt recordings, keeping in mind that the dictabelt was voice activated, not continuous, that there are at least three versions of the written transcripts of those recordings, that the recording could have been edited when transferred to tape, and that the accuracy of the dispatcher’s clock is merely assumed.

Quote
If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.

How do you know how quickly Jackson would have been alerted?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 05, 2019, 07:47:32 AM
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the front door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was car number 10, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's patrol district and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.

CITIZEN: Hello, police operator?
DIS: Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
CITIZEN: There's been a shooting out here.
DIS: Where's it at?
DIS: The citizen using the police radio...
CITIZEN: Tenth Street.
DIS: What location on Tenth Street?
CITIZEN: Between Marsaliis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What--what's...Tenth Street.
DIS: Can you hear me?
(Man and woman's voice in background)
DIS: 78.
CITIZEN: It's a police car, number 10.
DIS: 78.
DIS: (?) 78.
CITIZEN: Got that?
CITIZEN: Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
DIS: Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 East Jefferson.
CITIZEN: Thank you.

Jackson called 78 before hearing car 10. Oak Cliff was not Tippit's assigned district that day. Jackson directed him and Officer RC Nelson to move into Oak Cliff at 12.45pm. Also car 56 (Parker) was at East Jefferson at this time.

At 12.34pm. 91 (Menzel) calls clear twice without acknowledgement from Jackson. Oak Cliff was Menzel's district. He supposedly went to lunch at this time on Jefferson not far from the Texas Theatre. Also Jackson tried to establish where Parker (56) was.

DIS: 56.
91: 91 clear.
DIS: 55.
 10-4.
DIS: Anyone know where 56 is?

56: 56 clear for 5.
DIS: 56, your location.
56: East Jefferson.

12.45pm.
DIS: 87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.
78: I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.
87: 87's going north on Marsalis at R. L. Thornton.

At 12.48pm
101: 87, I'm on south end Houston Street Viaduct.
DIS: 10-4.

Are the positions reported by Nelson, Menzel and Parker about the same distance to 1026 North Beckley as 10th and Patton?


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 01:32:19 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bowley.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 01:51:32 PM
Gary, the Feluccas will come back with his watch was slow, as was the clock in the Hospital. Believe that if you will.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 01:52:37 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/1589-001.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 02:01:42 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/1589-001.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tippit1325-2.jpg)

Strange that the two times in the lower two documents have both been altered to 1.25.p.m. 8)

And the original death certificate says time of death 1.15 p.m.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 02:05:59 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/jfk20-20tippit20pronounced20dead.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 05, 2019, 02:18:14 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/jfk20-20tippit20pronounced20dead.jpg)

1.06 p.m. altered (very poorly)  to 1.1.5pm. I wonder why.  ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 05, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0090-001.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 03:24:15 PM
How many more Oswald the Cop Killer threads do we need to start?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 05, 2019, 03:37:04 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0090-001.jpg)

Notice that in this affidavit report that Helen Marsille  ( Markham?) told the police that the gunman was wearing a brown jacket and dark pants. .....    But the Jacket that was allegedly found in the parking lot was "White".... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 05, 2019, 07:24:25 PM
OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.

You've hit the nail on the head.....

I'd call your attention to officer  Poe's affidavit....  Poe wrote;... "On Nov 22, 1963 at approximately 1:15 pm Officer J.W. Poe and L.H. Jez 1479 working squad 105 heard police officer involved in a shooting at 400 block of N. Tenth street"........

Notice the time....At approximately 1:15 ....  Poe heard ( over the police radio ) that an officer had been involved in a shooting.....

This means that the shooting had to have happened several minutes prior to 1:15.....  Helen Markham was adamant that the shooting occurred at 1:06, and TF Bowley, arrived on the scene at 1:10 and saw Tippit lying in the street near his squad car.  Bowley used Tippit's radio to notify the police dispatcher of the shooting.

The Time that Bowley transmitted the information was approximately 1:15 ...Just as it says in Poe's affidavit.

JD Tippit was shot and killed at about 1:06pm.....Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04pm.....  The rooming house was a mile away from the scene of Tippit's murder. 


   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 05, 2019, 10:20:41 PM
It's obvious, by calling out for Tippit (78), that Murray Jackson had not previously been alerted by his superiors that Tippit had already been shot and killed. Therefore, Wright, Davis and Lewis didn't call the police to report the shooting much earlier than Jackson was made aware of it over the police radio by the citizen.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 05, 2019, 10:54:56 PM
OK----I will give that beginning from the sidewalk of the house 1026 N. Beckeley at 1:00 PM  [which is generous enough] and briskly walking ...using the shortest possible route... someone of average age and size could arrive at the northwest corner of 10th and Patton in 15 minutes.
However- this is the location where it was established that Mrs Markham stood at the time. J D Tippit's patrol car was parked across 10th and some 3 lots [120 ft] east of the intersection. The proposed murder allows no time for an encounter, a discussion at the side of the cruiser, an exit from the car and a subsequent shooting. It also allows no time for the alleged walker to have returned to the front of the rooming house from a reported bus stop some 120 ft north where Oswald was last seen by the housekeeper. So- again, this is like trying to squeeze 10 lbs of time into a 5 lb sack. It couldn't be done so it had to be faked.
In addition..as I have repeatedly pondered ---If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

One can only guess where. My first guess, years ago, was to General Walker’s house to take care of unfinished business. But lately I’ve imagined that if he had not been so quickly apprehended, there just might have been an attempted hi jack to Cuba at Love Field.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 05, 2019, 11:23:51 PM
It's obvious, by calling out for Tippit (78), that Murray Jackson had not previously been alerted by his superiors that Tippit had already been shot and killed. Therefore, Wright, Davis and Lewis didn't call the police to report the shooting much earlier than Jackson was made aware of it over the police radio by the citizen.

As I posted earlier, would Jackson automatically assume Tippit, when Menzel, Parker and Nelson were all possibly around that location?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 05, 2019, 11:46:17 PM
If this was supposed to be Oswald, where in hell was he going?

One can only guess where. My first guess, years ago, was to General Walker’s house to take care of unfinished business. But lately I’ve imagined that if he had not been so quickly apprehended, there just might have been an attempted hi jack to Cuba at Love Field.
Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 06, 2019, 12:03:07 AM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 06, 2019, 01:03:39 AM
Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended

The man who shot JD Tippit was NOT Lee Oswald.....  So speculating about where he was going is just nonsense.

Commonsense dictates that he was going to the theater.....and he never was anywhere near 10th and Patton.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 01:53:25 AM
Walkers house? Love Field? Check your google map--this was 10-12 miles in the other direction.
if he had not been so quickly miraculously apprehended

Yes, I know that. I don’t have supporting evidence, but I have read that there was a bus stop on a bus route which includes that section of the city that was in the direction LHO was heading when the encounter with Tippit occurred. It is all just conjecture anyway, so I haven’t taken the time to confirm the bus routes. Maybe someone that has that information handy will comment.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 02:41:44 AM
The man who shot JD Tippit was NOT Lee Oswald..... 
Totally agree Thumb1: Which leaves the speculation---What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?
Regarding the time of the shooting, in [With Malice] Dale Myers-another Warren defender-...completely ignores the reports of three people-- Helen Markham, Margie Higgins, and T F Bowley--  that they recall the shooting prior to 1:10.
See this chapter concerning Helen Markham....  http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tippit%20J%20D%20Murder/Item%2013.pdf
Even though there was a tape of her speaking on the phone with Mark Lane and it was played during her testimony before the Commission ...She denied that it was even her on the phone ???
Her statements concerning the shooting, the perpetrator, the lineup and every other incident were all over the place.
She was so off the wall that "the commission was just glad to get rid of her".
Consider a report from one researcher. As in her testimony, she had a son that lived with her. The boy had been in big trouble with the police [burglaries for the most part] Perhaps this had influenced her demeanor. We will never know for sure.
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 02:51:14 AM
there was a bus stop on a bus route ...Maybe someone that has that information handy will comment.
According to the housekeeper..she last saw Oswald near the bus stop at Zang and Beckley [about 2 lots north of the rooming house. So if someone was headed into downtown -they would have simply just waited for the bus right there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 03:01:34 AM
According to the housekeeper..she last saw Oswald near the bus stop at Zang and Beckley [about 2 lots north of the rooming house. So if someone was headed into downtown -they would have simply just waited for the bus right there.

If I remember correctly, the bus stop that he was heading in the direction of was on a different route than the one that stopped at Zang and Beckley. And that route reportedly included the areas north of downtown in which both Love Field and Walker’s residence are located.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 06, 2019, 03:16:09 PM
If I remember correctly, the bus stop that he was heading in the direction of was on a different route than the one that stopped at Zang and Beckley. And that route reportedly included the areas north of downtown in which both Love Field and Walker’s residence are located.

If there was such a bus stop, it's most likely location would be on Jefferson, rather than on 10th Street. Tippit's killer was not walking in the direction of Jefferson.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 06, 2019, 03:43:28 PM
If there was such a bus stop, it's most likely location would be on Jefferson, rather than on 10th Street. Tippit's killer was not walking in the direction of Jefferson.
Absolutely. The shooter was proceeding east [apparently] on 10th. No buses that way. Mrs Markham was on her way to catch her bus on Jefferson as stated. She was not waiting for her bus at the [10th and Patton corner] The bus stop by the Oswald  rooms up on the east side of Beckley is the via downtown route. What do I know? I've only lived in Dallas all my life. But don't take my word for it...just look at the map :-\
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 06, 2019, 05:53:11 PM
Absolutely. The shooter was proceeding east [apparently] on 10th. No buses that way. Mrs Markham was on her way to catch her bus on Jefferson as stated. She was not waiting for her bus at the [10th and Patton corner] The bus stop by the Oswald  rooms up on the east side of Beckley is the via downtown route. What do I know? I've only lived in Dallas all my life. But don't take my word for it...just look at the map :-\

There are present-day bus stops at the intersections of both Marsailis & Jefferson, and Tenth & Jefferson. I don’t know about these in 1963. But I would think that they existed back then also. Like I said before, this was reportedly a different route that included the area north of downtown.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 06, 2019, 07:13:46 PM
Totally agree Thumb1: Which leaves the speculation---What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?
Regarding the time of the shooting, in [With Malice] Dale Myers-another Warren defender-...completely ignores the reports of three people-- Helen Markham, Margie Higgins, and T F Bowley--  that they recall the shooting prior to 1:10.
See this chapter concerning Helen Markham....  http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tippit%20J%20D%20Murder/Item%2013.pdf
Even though there was a tape of her speaking on the phone with Mark Lane and it was played during her testimony before the Commission ...She denied that it was even her on the phone ???
Her statements concerning the shooting, the perpetrator, the lineup and every other incident were all over the place.
She was so off the wall that "the commission was just glad to get rid of her".
Consider a report from one researcher. As in her testimony, she had a son that lived with her. The boy had been in big trouble with the police [burglaries for the most part] Perhaps this had influenced her demeanor. We will never know for sure.

What was Tippit and the man who shot him doing at that location?

We can only speculate.... Unless new evidence surfaces.    It's obvious to me that Lee Oswald had been suckered into being the scapegoat, but he unwittingly threw a  monkey wrench into the machinery when he wasn't on the sixth floor at the time of the murder.  I firmly believe that the conspirators never intended for Lee to leave the TSBD alive. ...  And if he had been on the sixth floor he probably would have been shot to death by an "alert cop" and the case would have been closed then and there.   When he simply walked out of the TSBD and boarded a bus a couple of blocks away he created a panic for the conspirators, which required that they fall back to plan "B"....  They knew that he would be in the Texas Theater because that was where they they had told him to meet his handler after they hoax attempt to shoot JFK.  Lee thought that he would be whisked out of the country and accepted by Castro after the attempt to shoot JFK.   ( The same basic MO that Lee used at Walker's residence in April.)  So even though they never intended for Lee to leave the TSBD alive, they were prepared to get him shot in the Texas Theater...if he escaped the TSBD.   
They planned for an angry cop to shoot him in the theater....  To stir up the police they had set Tippit up as a patsy to be shot by a man who would run to the Texas Theater.   Then the irate cop would shoot Lee in the theater.  It's entirely possible that Tippit may have been designated to be the "alert cop" in the TSBD so by appointing  Tippit to be the hero who caught the fleeing assassin if he escaped the TSBD they suckered Tippit into being in a position to be shot and killed by a man who then fled to the Texas Theater....thus eliminating a link between them and  the assassination and  stirring up a swarm of angry cops who they thought would kill the armed Lee Oswald in the theater.  But.....Lee inadvertently  foiled their plan again when he didn't panic and remained calm in the theater.   If he had jumped up and tried to escape ....he would have been killed....

This is what I believe was the scheme .....  and as I said now we can only speculate.....   

But Based on the evidence and the facts, one thing that I have no doubt about is:.... Lee Oswald DID NOT shoot anybody in Dallas that day..... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 07, 2019, 12:31:30 AM
As you can see there was no "draining of Oak Cliff" at 12.45pm as claimed by Jackson. Other than Dealey Plaza, there were more units available in that district than any other.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 08, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.
So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 08, 2019, 05:58:02 PM
So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......
Doesn't matter...he had to hurry up and get there so he could shoot that cop :-\
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 06:16:59 PM
So he allegedly ran a mile and nobody saw him? Hmm......

So show me clear evidence that the Dallas police did exhustive house to house enquiries along the whole route.Show me proof that they did call backs to every property were they got no answer. Show me clear proof that any person has to be spotted by people when he or she walks or runs a nominated mile.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 06:18:50 PM
Doesn't matter...he had to hurry up and get there so he could shoot that cop :-\

Don't know if your being sarcastic..but I don't think the murder of a cop be it yesterday or 50 years ago is something to make mirth over.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 08, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
OK.The man who shot JD Tippit was Oswald.Much is made of the timing.Oswald couldn't get there on time etc. It's about a mile at the most from Oswald's rooming house to the crime scene. So if Oswald starts between 1.00 and 1.05 say and going at a brisk pace of 5mph he gets to the crime scene at between 1.12-1.17.

But who says he walked.He could've just as easily ran most of the way.In that case he would be moving at an average of 8MPH,In that case he could get to the crime scene between 1.08 - 1.13 or even earlier. It's just supposition to say he walked,It's also supposition to say he ran. If he did run then he is hardly going to tell Fritz that, as that would make it appear he was in flight.

So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD. And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.

So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 08:17:44 PM
So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??

You may well be right.On the other hand there are so many times being bandied about and with so many witnesses sketchy on times, that it's difficult to be sure. I'm simply making the point that if the killing happened on or after 1.08 it's conceivable that a fit able bodied person could've got from 1026 N.Beckley to be at the crime scene as early as 1.08. Depending obviously on his transport mode.Running,walking.And his time of departure from the rooming house.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings. The poor lady was hysterical after the shooting and made quite a few mistakes.



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 08, 2019, 08:47:11 PM
You may well be right.On the other hand there are so many times being bandied about and with so many witnesses sketchy on times, that it's difficult to be sure. I'm simply making the point that if the killing happened on or after 1.08 it's conceivable that a fit able bodied person could've got from 1026 N.Beckley to be at the crime scene as early as 1.08. Depending obviously on his transport mode.Running,walking.And his time of departure from the rooming house.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings. The poor lady was hysterical after the shooting and made quite a few mistakes.

I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings

I assume that you mean the case for Lee's innocence would need another witness.... Well it just so happens that your wish for corroboration of Helen Markham's sworn statement that Tippit was shot at 1:06 was verified by a man named TF Bowley.    Mr Bowley arrived at the murder scene at 1:10 ( according to his sworn affidavit)  And saw officer Tippit lying on the street near the left front wheel of his squad car.  Obviously Tippit had been shot a few minutes before Bowley arrived at 1:10....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
So all this he didn't have time, is only supposition. So it was entirely possible for Oswald to have arrived within the time frame to kill JD.

It’s also entirely possible that it wasn’t Oswald.

Quote
And there were numerous witnesses identified him as the cop killer.

No there weren’t.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2019, 10:53:13 PM
There’s also Margie Higgins who placed the shooting at 1:06. And Tippit’s death certificate that said he was DOA at the hospital at 1:15.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 11:12:14 PM
So you're good at arithmetic...  That's GREATTT!!...Because perhaps you'll be able to figger out the time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:05 or possible 1:06....

Lee Oswald was seen standing in front of 1026 N. Beckley at 1:04..( according to his landlady Mrs Roberts) and Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06)

How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??

Looking at Mrs.Markhams testimony, sworn testimony. She states that she was walking South towards Jefferson.When asked about the time she said "It was a little after 1.." and " I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1". Looks like, at this point she had not arrived at the bus stop area so that testimony is not very clear on timings. And she doesn't actually put a precise time on the shooting. She said "yes,this man shot the Policeman" There does not appear to be any reference to the actual time of the killing. 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 08, 2019, 11:24:36 PM
I think the case for Oswald would need another witness corroboration of Mrs Markham timings

I assume that you mean the case for Lee's innocence would need another witness.... Well it just so happens that your wish for corroboration of Helen Markham's sworn statement that Tippit was shot at 1:06 was verified by a man named TF Bowley.    Mr Bowley arrived at the murder scene at 1:10 ( according to his sworn affidavit)  And saw officer Tippit lying on the street near the left front wheel of his squad car.  Obviously Tippit had been shot a few minutes before Bowley arrived at 1:10....

But that doesn't corroborate Mrs.Markham. It simple says TF Bowley, according to his watch, arrived at the crime scene at 1.10. He also stated that another person at the scene said "lets catch him" This could indicate the gunman had only left the scene shortly before TF Bowley arrives. So it's actually very difficult to put a precise time on the actual killing.

Which could put in doubt any claim that a gunman would not have time to be at the crime scene as the time of the actual murder is not clear.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 12:03:28 AM
Looking at Mrs.Markhams testimony, sworn testimony. She states that she was walking South towards Jefferson.When asked about the time she said "It was a little after 1.." and " I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1". Looks like, at this point she had not arrived at the bus stop area so that testimony is not very clear on timings. And she doesn't actually put a precise time on the shooting. She said "yes,this man shot the Policeman" There does not appear to be any reference to the actual time of the killing.

I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 09, 2019, 01:20:03 AM
I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait an see, but I won't hold my breath.

I won't hold my breath.

Why Not ?....  Our little Chappie holds his breath... and kicks his little feet in a tantrum every time someone proves that he's wrong.   ( which is often)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ted Shields on October 09, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 01:23:19 PM
Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?

No, but none of the other witnesses had a reason to be acutely aware of the time.

Markham needed to catch the bus to go to work and Bowley had to pick up his daughter from school and his wife from work.

Selective or not, the combination of Markham's testimony and Bowley's affidavit provides a solid timeline which also fits perfectly with Tippit being declared DOA at the hospital at 1.15.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 09, 2019, 02:27:50 PM
The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 09, 2019, 02:30:34 PM
The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

And the hospital clock where Tippit was taken must have been slow as the correct times on the sheets were altered subsequently. There must have been a problem over the whole of Dallas that morning causing all these clocks and watches to be slow. :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 09, 2019, 03:36:39 PM
The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

Part of the LN scenario is also that Bowley's watch was also 5 minutes slow. Never mind that this would mean that he left his daughter waiting 5 minutes at school, without noticing it

And the hospital clock where Tippit was taken must have been slow as the correct times on the sheets were altered subsequently. There must have been a problem over the whole of Dallas that morning causing all these clocks and watches to be slow. :D

The Tippit murder was a local crime. So, why was the FBI constantly phoning the hospital about the time of death?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 09, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
Yeah they had a rash of almost equally slow timepieces in Oak Cliff that day.

The police dispatcher’s time checks on the possibly edited, non-continuous dictabelt dubs, though, you can take to the bank.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 09, 2019, 04:09:37 PM
Don't know if your being sarcastic..but I don't think the murder of a cop be it yesterday or 50 years ago is something to make mirth over.
Apparently, the point is not the only thing you seem to be missing.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 09, 2019, 04:11:46 PM
Mrs Markham saw a young man ( the man who shot JD Tippit) walking east on Tenth at about 1:05  ( Markham said she saw Tippit shot to death at 1:06) How much time elapsed between 1:04 and 1:06??
Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 09, 2019, 06:04:29 PM
The LN scenario goes something like this:

Markham’s washateria clock was chronically 6 or 7 minutes slow and she had no other timepiece so she always thought that her 1:22 bus was a 1:15 bus. Therefore, when she said she left at 6 or 7 minutes after 1:00, it was actually 1:12-1:13 and she got to 10th & Patton just in time for Tippit’s shooting at 1:16.

As I recall ...Mrs Markham was on the telephone talking to her daughter when she noticed that the clock in her apartment indicated that it was about 1:00 pm. She told her daughter that she needed to hang up and go to catch the bus .    Since she wanted to verify the clock in her apartment was correct she looked at the washateria clock  as she walked through that laundry room....  She was acutely aware of the time when she reached the intersection of 10th  & Patton....and she said in her sworn affidavit that the time was 1:06 when she saw officer Tippit shot by a young man who had bushy hair, was wearing a jacket that was darker colored than the jacket displayed to her as the jacket of the killer, white shirt and black trousers.   

At the theater Lee Oswald was wearing a tawny gray colored shirt, ( Not a white shirt) and gray trousers......   

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.


Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did you ever see this before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.
Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, I know it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment I was so excited--
Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see a shirt the color of this?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that.
Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 10, 2019, 12:40:19 AM
Fairly selective. What about the other witnesses? Davis sisters (in law), Scoggins, Benavides et al.

Ignoring them?

Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 12:51:49 AM
Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

Correction: cartridges that were handed to police by civilians (two of which were missing the policeman’s initials placed thereon) were matched to a revolver that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald’s arrest.

Quote
A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable. Also, seeing a man with a handgun a block or two away from a crime scene isn’t evidence that the man shot anybody.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 12:59:55 AM
Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

You make bold statements but can never back them up with actual evidence.... Why is that?

the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald

Taken from Oswald? Really? And you know this, how?

As far as I know the chain of custody for the revolver started at the police station about two hours after Oswald was arrested, when Hill got some guys (some who had not even been at the arrest) to put a mark on a revolver he just presented to them. Since when do police officers walk around with a suspect's gun for two hours before turning it in to the evidence locker?

The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed

Too strong? Really?

Eye witness testimony is the least reliable kind of evidence and there is no ballistic evidence to link the bullets recovered from Tippit's body to any weapon.

And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Actually, wishful thing does....

Why don't you try to provide a credible alternative to the Markham/Bowley timeline instead of ignoring it.

A fair minded person would accept that if Oswald physically couldn't have been there at around 1.06, when - as the actual evidence shows - Tippit was really shot, it could mean that the witnesses were wrong. But, I guess, hell needs to freeze over twice before you are willing to go there, right?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on October 10, 2019, 01:01:05 AM
I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 01:14:35 AM
A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front.

Yes, but not the timings of Markham, who needed to catch a bus, and Bowley, who needed to collect his child from school.

Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what.

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television. The combined testimony/affidavit of Markham and Bowley make a solid case for Tippit being shot at 1.06. There is no way that anybody could have walked or ran the distance to get there in 5 minutes or less. So, your next claim is going to be "perhaps somebody drove him"?..... Just ask yourself why would anybody drive a guy, allegedly in a hurry to escape, to a go nowhere location like 10th street?

In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

Actually, no it doesn't. There is no ballistic link whatsoever between the bullets recovered from Tippit's body and the shells or revolver they claim they took of Oswald. As for the eye witnesses, as I said before, that's the weakest kind of evidence you can get. Scoggings, for example, couldn't identify Oswald from a photo to the FBI only a day after the line up. And Markham... "was there a number 2 man" would have been destroyed on cross examination, as would have been several others.

But I take it that all this means that you can not knock down the logic of the combined Markham/Bowley evidence, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 01:36:06 AM
A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

He 'trotted' away from the murder scene, according to a witness or two. Try trotting yourself... It's a very efficient method of covering ground in a timely manner w/o straining. A little faster than brisk walking, I found. Also appears less rushed than fast jogging and certainly all-out sprinting... in case of 'eyes on'
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 01:41:16 AM
He 'trotted' away from the murder scene, according to a witness or two. Try trotting yourself... It's a very efficient method of covering ground in a timely manner w/o straining. A little faster than brisk walking, I found. Also appears less rushed than fast jogging and certainly all-out sprinting... in case of 'eyes on'

Are you high on medication or drugs? Just asking....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 01:47:30 AM
Mark Lane tried to get Markham to say a man with 'bushy hair'. She didn't agree with that description.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 01:48:51 AM
A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front.

Yes, but not the timings of Markham, who needed to catch a bus, and Bowley, who needed to collect his child from school.

Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what.

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television. The combined testimony/affidavit of Markham and Bowley make a solid case for Tippit being shot at 1.06. There is no way that anybody could have walked or ran the distance to get there in 5 minutes or less. So, your next claim is going to be "perhaps somebody drove him"?..... Just ask yourself why would anybody drive a guy, allegedly in a hurry to escape, to a go nowhere location like 10th street?

In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.

Actually, no it doesn't. There is no ballistic link whatsoever between the bullets recovered from Tippit's body and the shells or revolver they claim they took of Oswald. As for the eye witnesses, as I said before, that's the weakest kind of evidence you can get. Scoggings, for example, couldn't identify Oswald from a photo to the FBI only a day after the line up. And Markham... "was there a number 2 man" would have been destroyed on cross examination, as would have been several others.

But I take it that all this means that you can not knock down the logic of the combined Markham/Bowley evidence, right?

Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:25:08 AM
Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”

So, Earlene Roberts is unreliable? Is that what you are claiming?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 02:50:49 AM
So, Earlene Roberts is unreliable? Is that what you are claiming?

These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:56:42 AM
These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.

Just reporting what Hugh said.

Do you agree with Aynesworth?

He was there

He was where? Was he there "when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money"?

Who were those conspiracy theorists offering money?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 03:11:07 AM
Just reporting what Hugh said.

Do you agree with Aynesworth?

He was there

He was where? Was he there "when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money"?

Who were those conspiracy theorists offering money?

Hugh is still around. I had no problem looking him up and reaching him to ask him a few questions not long ago. He could answer your questions.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:43:48 AM
Hugh is still around. I had no problem looking him up and reaching him to ask him a few questions not long ago. He could answer your questions.

Oh no, you don't get to throw some quotes out here and leave it at that. You either agree with him or not.. what is it?

Hiding behind Aynesworth's quotes makes you a coward! And, no, Hugh could not answer my question, which is if you agree with him!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 03:54:24 AM
A lot of the timings are approximate so nothing is really clear on that front. Also nobody knows if Oswald ran,walked or what. If he thought that it would only be a matter of time till the police arrived at his rooming house it stands to reason he wants to get himself away as quickly as possible. So it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.  In any case the eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence place him at the crime scene.


it's quite possible that he ran flat out part of the way.

Riiiiight!....  Roger Bannister had just broken a long standing goal in the one mile run....He was the first man to run a mile in less than four minutes.  But you believe that Lee Oswald was even faster than Roger Bannister.     Question....  Can you point out where Lee Oswald beat Roger Bannister's record.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 05:07:24 AM
Are you high on medication or drugs? Just asking....

Like a moth to the flame, you just have to respond to me; after repeatedly claiming I'm not worthy of same.

Seems your drug is me...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 10, 2019, 06:18:59 AM
These are Hugh Aynesworth’s words from that same interview:

“I talked to her that afternoon, but then she later changed her story tremendously when some of the conspiracy theorists got to town and started offering money.”

I am not claiming anything. Just reporting what Hugh said. He was there.

(https://i.ibb.co/GMz1zQn/roberts.jpg)

Seems they arrived within a week.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Oh no, you don't get to throw some quotes out here and leave it at that. You either agree with him or not.. what is it?

Hiding behind Aynesworth's quotes makes you a coward! And, no, Hugh could not answer my question, which is if you agree with him!

Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on October 10, 2019, 11:34:52 AM
Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...

Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 11:47:53 AM
Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.

Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 12:16:45 PM
Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”

disclosed for the first time the bus driver -- LOL

the cab driver -- LOL

all the people that he encountered along the way -- LOL

WC mouthpiece.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 02:12:38 PM
Let me think, should I believe your claim?:

“Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.”

Or should I believe Hugh Aynesworth?

Hmm...

It was not my claim, it was what Earlene Roberts said. Nothing what Hugh Aynesworth said in the book is in conflict with what Earlene Roberts said.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on October 10, 2019, 02:21:22 PM
Hugh Aynsworth has always been a Warren report supporter, so take anything he says with a large dose of salt.

What is the logic behind this mind numbing claim?  It's difficult to understand why we should take a reporter's version of events "with a large dose of salt" simply because he believes Oswald is guilty.  Maybe he came to that conclusion based on the evidence.  He was there on the scene.  Are you suggesting he intentionally lied for some reason?  Was he part of the frame up, for example? 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 02:40:12 PM
Some more of Hughe’s words from that interview:

“So Larry Grove, a reporter for the News, and I started working on escape route stories. Five days later we did a massive story about how he had gotten out of the Book Depository, where he was, what he did, the bus, etc. We didn’t get any tremendous detail, but we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”

we disclosed for the first time the bus driver, the cab driver, and all the people that he encountered along the way. That was in the paper before the Warren Commission was ever formed, and it stood up quite well.”[/b]

It stood up quite well???   What an absurd notion.....  Not a single element of that tale has stood up under scrutiny.     The Bus Driver Mc Watters, was not referring to Lee Oswald in his recollections....   Whaley the cabbie said that he picked up a young man who was dressed in a a BLUE working man's uniform at 12:30....Which was the time the shots were being fired in Dealey plaza....So his passenger could not have bee Lee Oswald.  And in fact Whaley's entire tale appears as nothing but BS.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 02:46:26 PM
It was not my claim, it was what Earlene Roberts said. Nothing what Hugh Aynesworth said in the book is in conflict with what Earlene Roberts said.

The conflict is that she told Aynesworth that “she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him.” Versus your claim that: “she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.”

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:34:57 PM
The conflict is that she told Aynesworth that “she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him.” Versus your claim that: “she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.”

There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

Perhaps you would have had a valid point if the bus stop had been a mile or so away, but it wasn't. It was nearly in front of the roominghouse.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 03:44:45 PM
Yeah right... Earlene Roberts saw him at the bus stop just after the one o'clock news came on television.

According to Hugh Aynesworth, she initially had a completely different account:

From Hugh Aynesworth interview by Larry A. Sneed in his book: “No More Silence.”

“She told me that day that Oswald came running in while she was watching television and that she tried to talk to him about the President being killed. He didn’t want to talk, so he went in, changed his jacket and ran out. She then saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time that she saw him.”

changed his jacket

So, if we are to believe Aynesworth's account, Earlene Roberts told him basically that Oswald entered the house wearing a jacket?

You can not change a jacket if you aren't wearing one to begin with, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 05:03:27 PM
changed his jacket

So, if we are to believe Aynesworth's account, Earlene Roberts told him basically that Oswald entered the house wearing a jacket?

You can not change a jacket if you aren't wearing one to begin with, right?

This brings up something that Mrs Robert's said.....  Mrs Roberts said that he was in his "shirt sleeves" when he arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm.....

My grandmother used those same words when she was referring to a man wearing an undershirt....without another garment ( jacket or sleeved shirt)

It's possible that Lee had already removed his sport shirt and thus Mrs Roberts saw him wearing his undershirt when he arrived at the house.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 05:28:23 PM
Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.  The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed.

I agree....the ballistic evidence is to strong to be dismissed.

Virtually all of the witnesses who saw the gunman after the murder of Tippit said that he removed one spent shell at a time as he walked away from the scene.   The killer removed one spent shell and tossed it away and then removed another and another as he walked along...Thus the shells were scattered over a large area.

The S&W revolver has an ejector mechanism that ejects all of the shells at once.   ( This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission)

So if the killer had been using a S&W he could not have removed the shells one at a time as reported by the witnesses at the scene.

The man was NOT Lee Oswald and the gun was NOT a Smith & Wesson....... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 05:47:07 PM
There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

Perhaps you would have had a valid point if the bus stop had been a mile or so away, but it wasn't. It was nearly in front of the roominghouse.

Both claims can be correct.

It appears that in your world "she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him" can also mean that "she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.” (By the way the bus stop is in front of the house to the right as you run off the porch.)

It appears that in your world left means right, and last time means last time other than the next time. If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Did Alice tell you these things (when she was ten feet tall)? ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
This brings up something that Mrs Robert's said.....  Mrs Roberts said that he was in his "shirt sleeves" when he arrived at the rooming house at 1:00pm.....

My grandmother used those same words when she was referring to a man wearing an undershirt....without another garment ( jacket or sleeved shirt)

It's possible that Lee had already removed his sport shirt and thus Mrs Roberts saw him wearing his undershirt when he arrived at the house.

According to vocabulary.com:

“"in your shirtsleeves" means you are not wearing anything over your shirt”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 10, 2019, 06:16:19 PM
According to vocabulary.com:

“"in your shirtsleeves" means you are not wearing anything over your shirt”

That's probably true.... But back in the day... 50, or 60, or 70 years ago not everybody was well educated, and used a dictionary to learn the meaning of a word.... They used like "car"  to mean any conveyance like a street car, or a carriage.....  but not many folks today know that.   The word "car" now means an automobile.  And many folks used the "N" word to describe a negro.... There was nothing derogatory or obscene about the word.   ( Remember "Huckleberry Finn?.. What did Jim call himself?  ) ....   

So old Mrs Roberts probably was referring to seeing Lee in his T shirt when he arrived at the rooming house.....IMO
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 10, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
What is the logic behind this mind numbing claim?  It's difficult to understand why we should take a reporter's version of events "with a large dose of salt" simply because he believes Oswald is guilty.  Maybe he came to that conclusion based on the evidence.  He was there on the scene.  Are you suggesting he intentionally lied for some reason?  Was he part of the frame up, for example?
Aynesworth wrote this about the single bullet theory and the WC (this is from his book "Eyewitness to History.")

"The only subject I woudn't touch [with Mark Lane] was one I still refuse to touch today. I do not know how to explain Kennedy's and Connally's wound. The Warren Commission might be correct or perhaps totally wrong about its much-maligned single bullet theory, the belief that a single bullet slammed through the president's back and throat and then into Governor Connally. I do know that I heard three distinct shots that afternoon."

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

It's funny that Aynesworth has been called a CIA asset by some in the "There was a conspiracy camp" (yeah, they call everyone who disagree with them that but never mind). He said that one of his biggest mistakes was giving Mark Lane his (Aynesworth's) work on the assassination. This included his notes and interviews and other material that he compiled BEFORE the Warren Commission was formed.

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 08:02:11 PM
I don’t know why Aynesworth’s hearsay would be any more reliable than anyone else’s.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 08:49:22 PM
Aynesworth wrote this about the single bullet theory and the WC (this is from his book "Eyewitness to History.")

"The only subject I woudn't touch [with Mark Lane] was one I still refuse to touch today. I do not know how to explain Kennedy's and Connally's wound. The Warren Commission might be correct or perhaps totally wrong about its much-maligned single bullet theory, the belief that a single bullet slammed through the president's back and throat and then into Governor Connally. I do know that I heard three distinct shots that afternoon."

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

It's funny that Aynesworth has been called a CIA asset by some in the "There was a conspiracy camp" (yeah, they call everyone who disagree with them that but never mind). He said that one of his biggest mistakes was giving Mark Lane his (Aynesworth's) work on the assassination. This included his notes and interviews and other material that he compiled BEFORE the Warren Commission was formed.

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

He might have realized how far out it was...

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

I'm sure Graves is ready to lecture you on why or why not this might be the case.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 09:10:22 PM
For a supposed lifelong WC defender that's a pretty odd statement - "they might be correct or perhaps totally wrong" - about a key claim made by the commission.

He might have realized how far out it was...

So why did this controlled CIA asset helped Mark Lane?

I'm sure Graves is ready to lecture you on why or why not this might be the case.

He might have realized how far out it was...

Eyewitness Charles Brehm said the following in his interview by Larry Sneed in his book “No More Silence.”

“Within hours after the knowledge was given to me that Connally was also wounded, I said the only thing that I could think of was that a bullet that went through the President had also obviously hit Connally because there were only three shots fired: one went wild and two hit the President. The question then was how could it have happened? At that time, it was very easy for me to open up my shirt and show the bullet wound in what was the solar plexus, to come over here and show the exit wound where it passed through my body and came out between my ribs; then the second part of the bullet, the damage, because the bullet was softened and out of shape, tore my arm apart. One bullet did that to me! Any questions that night about what a single bullet can do, my God, I was living proof of it that day!”

So apparently, Arlen Spector wasn’t the first one to think of that theory. And it isn’t that far out either.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 09:24:46 PM
Charles Brehm was wounded?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 10, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Charles Brehm was wounded?

World War 2
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 10, 2019, 09:48:17 PM
Hugh Aynesworth had over thirty plus years of reporting which included hundreds, if not thousands, of articles (and several books). We are literally talking about tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of words. Thousands of interviews. It's a lot of work including not only the JFK assassination but the Waco siege, Ted Bundy and other horrible stories.

To my knowledge there hasn't been a single allegation of any unethical or improper reporting on his part. No one has claimed that he or she was misquoted, no stories were retracted, no allegations of inaccurate stories (although I'm sure over that time he got some facts wrong).

This is a serious, professional journalist. Not a hack.

Yet we're supposed to consider his "hearsay" as not being any more credible than anyone else's "hearsay"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 10, 2019, 09:51:31 PM
He might have realized how far out it was...

Eyewitness Charles Brehm said the following in his interview by Larry Sneed in his book “No More Silence.”

“Within hours after the knowledge was given to me that Connally was also wounded, I said the only thing that I could think of was that a bullet that went through the President had also obviously hit Connally because there were only three shots fired: one went wild and two hit the President. The question then was how could it have happened? At that time, it was very easy for me to open up my shirt and show the bullet wound in what was the solar plexus, to come over here and show the exit wound where it passed through my body and came out between my ribs; then the second part of the bullet, the damage, because the bullet was softened and out of shape, tore my arm apart. One bullet did that to me! Any questions that night about what a single bullet can do, my God, I was living proof of it that day!”

So apparently, Arlen Spector wasn’t the first one to think of that theory. And it isn’t that far out either.

Three shots with only two shells?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 10, 2019, 10:07:13 PM
Earlene Roberts WC testimony

Mrs. Roberts: He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

-----------------------------

And Oswald was wearing a Tshirt that day, not an undershirt
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 10, 2019, 10:27:47 PM
This is a serious, professional journalist. Not a hack.

Yet we're supposed to consider his "hearsay" as not being any more credible than anyone else's "hearsay"?

If he thought that Mrs. Roberts said that Oswald “changed his jacket”, then yes.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 10:48:04 PM
Both claims can be correct.

It appears that in your world "she saw him run off the porch to the left and that was the last time she saw him" can also mean that "she saw him at the bus stop just after the 1:00 news came on television.” (By the way the bus stop is in front of the house to the right as you run off the porch.)

It appears that in your world left means right, and last time means last time other than the next time. If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Did Alice tell you these things (when she was ten feet tall)? ::)

Semantics.

As you have demonstrated so very well with this post, people simply do not get everything correct and 100% complete every time. In this instance you've got nothing right. Better luck next time....

If I remember correctly you are also the one who argued that even though Wesley Frazier told an untruth, that didn't mean that he lied.

Could it be your memory is playing tricks with your mind? What untruth did Wesley Frazier tell?

On the one hand we have the recollection of Aynesworth, as expressed by Larry Sneed, in his book published in 1998 and on the other hand we have an affidavit given by Earlene Roberts to the Secret Service on December 5th 1963 and you prefer to go with a 35 year old recollection over a statement by the witness herself only days after the murders. Go figure....

The funny thing is that none of it matters. The timeline established by the WC leaves very little room for Oswald's arrival at the rooming house sustantially earlier than 1 pm, making it physically impossible for a walking or running Oswald to be on 10th and Patton at 1.06 or 1.07, which IMO the best evidence shows is when Tippit was killed.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 10, 2019, 10:52:11 PM
Earlene Roberts WC testimony

Mrs. Roberts: He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

-----------------------------

And Oswald was wearing a Tshirt that day, not an undershirt

Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 11, 2019, 12:23:06 AM
Three shots with only two shells?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 12:36:23 AM
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

Walt, what does "all the evidence" mean to you?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 12:45:27 AM
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337332/m1/1/

"Vince Drain also present.  Actually took possession of all the evidence." signed... JC Day

Yes, indeed he did..... and he initialed the 3X5 index card when he took possession of it ......

No, Walt. Drain didn’t get the magic partial palmprint that night, no matter how many times you want to pretend that he did.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 01:03:13 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/GMz1zQn/roberts.jpg)

Seems they arrived within a week.

So Charles, have you asked Hugh when the conspiracy theorists arrived to ask her for money?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 01:04:02 AM
Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?

Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 01:12:21 AM
Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.

So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 01:34:07 AM
So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?

He does if it fits his narrative.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EzGXCrrIQs/U3iNuSeXBiI/AAAAAAAA0Cs/enOSCvythBw/s1600/LHO-Room.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 02:18:40 AM
So Charles, have you asked Hugh when the conspiracy theorists arrived to ask her for money?

I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 02:23:00 AM
I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

Amazing 35 years old memories  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 02:28:38 AM
Amazing 35 years old memories  Thumb1:

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 02:47:10 AM
1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

As I said; amazing 35 year old memory!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 02:52:40 AM
I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

You used an Aynesworth quote to claim that Roberts changed her story in response to conspiracy theorists offering money to her. I merely questioned when this occurred as she was talking of "the police car outside the house" a week after the assassination.

Now you use a quote from him suggesting that after the shots people were mistaken and "made stuff up". No need for money or CTs now.

The logical progression is following.

After the shooting people were mistaken and described events that did not happen.

Roberts described events after the event so she must have made them up or was mistaken. QED?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 02:53:07 AM
“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then!

Like Howard Brennan for example?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 02:55:38 AM
I have no intention of contacting Hugh Aynesworth. Here are more of his words from Larry Sneed’s interview, he is talking about the scene in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination:

“During that time span, I kept thinking, “He’s in that building!” I remember interviewing people that said that they saw certain things: some did, some didn’t. Even then there were people making up things. Even then! I remember interviewing a young couple where the guy was telling me that he had seen this and he had seen that, and his wife said, “You didn’t see that! We were back in the parking lot when it happened!” Even then! And, of course, we’ve seen that in abundance since.”

Cue Charles Givens.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 03:04:22 AM
You used an Aynesworth quote to claim that Roberts changed her story in response to conspiracy theorists offering money to her. I merely questioned when this occurred as she was talking of "the police car outside the house" a week after the assassination.

Now you use a quote from him suggesting that after the shots people were mistaken and "made stuff up". No need for money or CTs now.

The logical progression is following.

After the shooting people were mistaken and described events that did not happen.

Roberts described events after the event so she must have made them up or was mistaken. QED?

I said previously that I am only reporting what Aynesworth said. Here is some more from Sneed’s interview:

“When you pay money, you get what you pay for. You word your questions the way that you want a response, and people are smart enough to know that if they disagree with you, you may not come back and you may not pay them again. Sadly, many people have made a lot of money out of this thing, and it’s contorted the whole story.”

And your generalizations are nonsense. Here are more of Aynesworth’s words (which immediately follow his account of his visit with Roberts):

“But this is the way with so many of these witnesses. If you got to them that day, they were stunned and told you what they really saw, although, as I’ve said, some of them were even making up stories then.”
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 03:19:51 AM
Who exactly does Aynsworth think paid Earlene Roberts? And to say what?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 03:30:11 AM
Who exactly does Aynsworth think paid Earlene Roberts? And to say what?

And when?

I can only assume Charles used Ayensworth's quote to infer she changed her story in response to monetary gain offered by "conspiracy theorists". When challenged, nothing specific was offered. somewhat of a backpedal though, in the form of another quote stating the "bleeding obvious" followed. Some witnesses were mistaken and others concocted stories. As if we don't know that already.

The evidence that she changed her story for CTs is what? Other than the statement by Aynesworth.

As I said before, Cue Charles Givens, Aynesworth analysis of his story change was?



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 04:03:02 AM
  It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.
Back when I was in the Navy...I stayed a while with this really elderly couple when I was on leave and he was about 90. Their name was Beck [funny I can remember that after all these years]...Anyway he could recite his entire military graduating class alphabetically from like 1919 or something but I had to keep telling him what my name was. 
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 04:30:09 AM
So you rely on an unreliable witness, who made up stories, according to her employer?

Where did I say Earlene was unreliable



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 06:44:22 AM
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

No reference?

"Some Types of Memory Improve or Stay the Same
A type of memory called semantic memory continues to improve for many older adults. Semantic memory is the ability to recall concepts and general facts that are not related to specific experiences. For example, understanding the concept that clocks are used to tell time is a simple example of semantic memory. This type of memory also includes vocabulary and knowledge of language. In addition, procedural memory, your memory of how to do things, such as how to tell time by reading the numbers on a clock, typically stays the same."

https://www.apa.org/pi/aging/memory-and-aging.pdf
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 08:26:24 AM
1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.
2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?
3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

Hat trick from Collins, don't forget to bookmark!

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.

You saw his notes?

2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?

Don't forget to tell Bill Chapman how many times Buell Frazier has told his two foot bag story.

3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

You've been on the Ruth Paine tour bus?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 12:19:55 PM
And when?

I can only assume Charles used Ayensworth's quote to infer she changed her story in response to monetary gain offered by "conspiracy theorists". When challenged, nothing specific was offered. somewhat of a backpedal though, in the form of another quote stating the "bleeding obvious" followed. Some witnesses were mistaken and others concocted stories. As if we don't know that already.

The evidence that she changed her story for CTs is what? Other than the statement by Aynesworth.

As I said before, Cue Charles Givens, Aynesworth analysis of his story change was?

Aynesworth doesn’t elaborate on your questions in that interview. I suggest that you contact him if you really want to know.

I did re-read a short chapter in his book “Witness to History” titled: “The First Conspiracy Theorist: Mr. Stalls” though. Rodney Stalls was sitting on Aynesworth’s doorstep when he arrived home on the night of 11/22/63. He described a conspiracy involving the Russians and H.L. Hunt.

So, it didn’t take long at all for the conspiracy theorists to start showing up...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Colin Crow on October 11, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
Aynesworth doesn’t elaborate on your questions in that interview. I suggest that you contact him if you really want to know.

I did re-read a short chapter in his book “Witness to History” titled: “The First Conspiracy Theorist: Mr. Stalls” though. Rodney Stalls was sitting on Aynesworth’s doorstep when he arrived home on the night of 11/22/63. He described a conspiracy involving the Russians and H.L. Hunt.

So, it didn’t take long at all for the conspiracy theorists to start showing up...

Just ask Henry Wade....LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 01:29:32 PM
Hat trick from Collins, don't forget to bookmark!

1. Hugh is a journalist who takes notes.

You saw his notes?

2. How many times do you suppose Hugh has told these accounts over the years?

Don't forget to tell Bill Chapman how many times Buell Frazier has told his two foot bag story.

3. It is common for long term memory to actually improve as one gets into their golden years.

You've been on the Ruth Paine tour bus?

You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 11, 2019, 03:05:01 PM
Walt, what does "all the evidence" mean to you?

The DPD listed all of the evidence they had gathered after the ambush murder and before midnight on 11 / 22 /63.

The DPD turned all of that evidence over to FBI agent Vince Drain ......

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 11, 2019, 05:32:34 PM
Where did I say Earlene was unreliable

Post #101 on page 11

Could Roberts possibly be just another unreliable witness with an ever changing story?

Absolutely

But I'm pretty sure she was consistent in describing O.H. Lee's round-trip foot speed between the front door & the room which did not need curtain rods/he was being kicked out of.

Despite your selfserving cherry picking "pretty sure" comment, you agreed that Roberts was absolutely an unreliable witness.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
Just ask Henry Wade....LOL.
The DA was the first [and only] official to mention words of a possible conspiracy publicly. After J Edgar Hoover called him up and chewed out Wade's backside...Mr Wade changed his statements to "Oswald was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 06:07:32 PM
You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.

So the tale goes.

He also considers Buell Frazier one of the must honest guys he's met (paraphrased).

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 11, 2019, 06:36:59 PM
You saw his notes?

No, however Aynesworth was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 as a casual observer (not on any assignment). When he began interviewing eyewitnesses immediately following the assassination, he didn’t have his normal pad and pencil. He gave a nearby kid a quarter for his fat school pencil. And he used some utility bill envelopes that he had in his pocket to make notes on. Furthermore, when I did speak to Aynesworth on the phone, to ask about some quotes of Henry Wade he had written about, he confirmed to me that those quotes were from his notes. So it appears to me that he typically does take notes and refers to them. And it stands to reason that he did so when he interviewed Roberts on 11/22/63. If you need to know for sure please contact Hugh Aynesworth and ask him yourself.
Correct. He's been an investigative reporter for more than three decades and has worked for major news organizations. He's written hundreds, probably thousands, of articles and interviewed countless - must be at least in the hundreds if not thousands - of witnesses. He's produced a lot of material on the assassination, Ted Bundy, the Waco siege and other stories. He was a serious reporter.

Nowhere have I read of a source/witness saying they were misquoted. If he had been we know these conspiracy advocates would be repeating them. Ad nauseam.

Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt, he has to be dismissed. Obviously people can choose to accept or ignore whatever evidence or claims they want. But rejecting Aynesworth solely because he reports things conspiracists and Oswald defenders don't like isn't a legitimate reason to do so.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 06:42:36 PM
So the tale goes.

He also considers Buell Frazier one of the must honest guys he's met (paraphrased).

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Atta boy!

Now you are showing your true colors.

Someone who is closed-minded.

When you decide you want to become more open-minded, let us know.

In the meantime, I will not waste anymore of my time with you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 11, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
Aynesworth is a total waste of time.

Atta boy!

Now you are showing your true colors.

Someone who is closed-minded.

When you decide you want to become more open-minded, let us know.

In the meantime, I will not waste anymore of my time with you.
This is the same response I get when I mention Robert Caro on LBJ. Caro's spent twenty plus years investigating LBJ's life. From birth to death. And he's come up with no evidence that LBJ was behind/involved in the assassination.

So what's the Oswald defender response? Simply dismiss his work out of hand. Don't even consider it. Can he be wrong? Of course. But to just dismiss it out hand is not a legitimate response. Not in my opinion.

This is how it goes. We're dealing with a type of religious mentality or thinking here. They know there was a conspiracy, they know Oswald was framed, and that's it. Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 11, 2019, 07:15:21 PM
This is the same response I get when I mention Robert Caro on LBJ. Caro's spent twenty plus years investigating LBJ's life. From birth to death. And he's come up with no evidence that LBJ was behind/involved in the assassination.

So what's the Oswald defender response? Simply dismiss his work out of hand. Don't even consider it. Can he be wrong? Of course. But to just dismiss it out hand is not a legitimate response. Not in my opinion.

This is how it goes. We're dealing with a type of religious mentality or thinking here. They know there was a conspiracy, they know Oswald was framed, and that's it. Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.

Yes, that type of response is fairly  common. However, I usually try to reason things out. If only for the benefit of anyone who has an open mind, that might be reading these posts. But there is a point where it becomes rather pointless...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 11, 2019, 07:46:34 PM
Correct. He's been an investigative reporter for more than three decades and has worked for major news organizations. He's written hundreds, probably thousands, of articles and interviewed countless - must be at least in the hundreds if not thousands - of witnesses. He's produced a lot of material on the assassination, Ted Bundy, the Waco siege and other stories. He was a serious reporter.

Nowhere have I read of a source/witness saying they were misquoted. If he had been we know these conspiracy advocates would be repeating them. Ad nauseam.

Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt, he has to be dismissed. Obviously people can choose to accept or ignore whatever evidence or claims they want. But rejecting Aynesworth solely because he reports things conspiracists and Oswald defenders don't like isn't a legitimate reason to do so.

"But because he presents evidence of Oswald's guilt..."


Which was?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 07:55:34 PM
Post #101 on page 11

Despite your selfserving cherry picking "pretty sure" comment, you agreed that Roberts was absolutely an unreliable witness.

I didn't agree that she was an unreliable witness
I agreed with the possibility that she was

Absolutely
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 11, 2019, 08:02:42 PM
He does if it fits his narrative.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EzGXCrrIQs/U3iNuSeXBiI/AAAAAAAA0Cs/enOSCvythBw/s1600/LHO-Room.jpg)

'He' didn't agree that Roberts was an unreliable witness
'He' agreed that it was possible that she was

Absolutely
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 11, 2019, 08:31:44 PM
  Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored.
"..to be ignored".---scrutinized
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 11, 2019, 11:22:13 PM
Can his critics cite where his reporting was wrong? No. Can they cite instances of him misquoting a witness? No. Can they cite him having to retract stories? No.

Did Aynesworth recall Roberts telling him that Oswald “changed his jacket”?

Do you believe that’s correct?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 13, 2019, 11:37:23 PM
"Any evidence indicating otherwise is to be ignored"

The above quote sounds like a quip from deep within the bowels of the smoke filled back rooms of the Warren Omission.

Smoke filled back rooms??....J. Edgar Hoover would never have permitted smoking during the meetings.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 14, 2019, 04:45:16 PM
Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.Six had picked Oswald out from line ups as the man at the crime scene .Three other identified him from photographs.Two others said he resembled the man at the crime scene. Not claiming this is being ignored.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald. The eye witnesses and the ballistic evidence are to strong to be dismissed. And both those strong lines of evidence place Oswald at the crime scene.

Four firearms experts testified that the empty cartridge cases, found near the crime scene, were fired from the Smith & Wesson 38 special caliber revolver taken from Oswald, when he was arrested at the theatre.And they declared that the four cartridges were fired from this weapon, to the exclussion of all others.

That's fine....Now please prove that those cartridges were the ones that were picked up at the scene, and tell us WHEN those cartridges were fired.

A total of 12 witnesses saw the man with the revolver.

Yes,  that's true... And what did those witnesses say about the manner in which the man unloaded the revolver?   Isn't it true that they all said that he unloaded the spent cartridges ONE AT A TIME as he walked away?  The revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald at the theater was a Smith & Wesson....  Smith and Wesson revolvers are designed to eject the cartridges all at the same time with a single push of the ejector rod.  This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission by an FBI agent who was using the revolver from the theater.  He pointed out that all of the shells were ejected at the same time and his hand was liberally coated with burned gun powder when he ejected the shells.
The man who shot JD Tippit removed one shell at a time and tossed the shell aside as he walked away....Thus the shells were found scattered over a wide area.   Obviously the man was NOT using the Smith & Wesson revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald at the theater.

There is an issue with the time in relation to Oswald getting from his rooming house at around the 1.02+ in time to get to the crime scene to commit murder. But that doesn't rule out Oswald.

So you recognize that Lee Oswald could not have traveled from the rooming house to the murder scene in about three minutes, but you still believe that that fact "doesn't rule out Oswald".....   Do I have that right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:14:27 AM
And Tippit’s death certificate that said he was DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

Can you post this please?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:19:04 AM
I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

So you either believe that Tippit's body was lying in the street for almost ten minutes before someone attempted to report it over the police radio... or you believe the police tapes have been fudged.  Which do you believe?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:23:17 AM
Correction: cartridges that were handed to police by civilians (two of which were missing the policeman’s initials placed thereon) were matched to a revolver that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 2 hours after Oswald’s arrest.

Please explain the problem with the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:26:26 AM
Also, seeing a man with a handgun a block or two away from a crime scene isn’t evidence that the man shot anybody.

Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 22, 2019, 08:37:36 AM
There is no conflict. Both claims can be correct. People aren't always accurate and 100% complete in their recollections, in every conversation.

So it's now possible that Helen Markham left her house well past 1:00 and as a result, it's now possible that Markham was at Tenth and Patton well past 1:06.

Got it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Matthew Finch on October 22, 2019, 12:15:26 PM
Has anyone ever considered that Oswald might have been on his way to finish off Walker - hence 'grabbing the pistol', the direction he 'supposedly' headed?

(100% speculation!)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on October 22, 2019, 01:00:51 PM
Has anyone ever considered that Oswald might have been on his way to finish off Walker - hence 'grabbing the pistol', the direction he 'supposedly' headed?

(100% speculation!)

Yes, I speculate that he was originally heading to Davis Street then was planning to turn west toward the Love Field bus route stop at Davis and Westmount Avenue (total of three miles from the rooming house). I suspect when Tippit saw him, and started following him, that he made a evasive turn or two to see if he was indeed being followed. And ended up going east on Tenth Street. I think that there is a good possibility that he could have been thinking of a hi jack to Cuba. Or, as you speculate, heading to Walker’s house. I don’t think that he was just aimlessly wandering around.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 01:14:23 PM

I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.



So you either believe that Tippit's body was lying in the street for almost ten minutes before someone attempted to report it over the police radio... or you believe the police tapes have been fudged.  Which do you believe?


Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

There are no police tapes. All there are, are transcripts of recordings made with voice activated devices, making it impossible to verify actual times.


So it's now possible that Helen Markham left her house well past 1:00 and as a result, it's now possible that Markham was at Tenth and Patton well past 1:06.

Got it.

Yes, people do not get everything 100% right all the time. It is also possible that Markham got the time (1:15) wrong for catching the 1:12 bus!

What is beyond dispute however is that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to Bowley's arrival at 1:10, shortly after which Bowley saw Tippit's body loaded in to an ambulance which took him to the hospital where he was declared DOA at 1:15, in the presence - according to their report - by DPD officers Davenport and Bardin.

For Markham to be wrong about the time she left home, Bowley also needs to be wrong about his time of arrival (which implicitely means he left his daughter waiting for him after school) and the hospital also must have gotten the time of the DOA wrong.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:16:59 PM
Can you post this please?

Correction:  autopsy permit

(https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/metapth338334_l_dsma_91-001-1503054-3445_11.jpg)

Also, this has obviously been altered:

(https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/nish-report-funeral-home.png)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:20:09 PM
Please explain the problem with the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:22:03 PM
Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

Your assumption that they all saw the same man is unwarranted.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 22, 2019, 04:27:08 PM
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 04:49:31 PM
Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

There are no police tapes. All there are, are transcripts of recordings made with voice activated devices, making it impossible to verify actual times.

Yes, people do not get everything 100% right all the time. It is also possible that Markham got the time (1:15) wrong for catching the 1:12 bus!

What is beyond dispute however is that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to Bowley's arrival at 1:10, shortly after which Bowley saw Tippit's body loaded in to an ambulance which took him to the hospital where he was declared DOA at 1:15, in the presence - according to their report - by DPD officers Davenport and Bardin.

For Markham to be wrong about the time she left home, Bowley also needs to be wrong about his time of arrival (which implicitely means he left his daughter waiting for him after school) and the hospital also must have gotten the time of the DOA wrong.

Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

This is interesting Martin...  We know that TF Bowley arrived at 1:10 ( and there's no good reason to doubt that the time is reasonably accurate) And I believe he took a quick look at Tippit who was lying on the street, and then went to use Tippit's radio.  That time could have been anywhere between 1:10 and 1:12...

You say that Tippit's body was removed just after Bowley arrived ....  Is there verification for the time that the ambulance picked up Tippit's body?   It's difficult to believe that the ambulance could have arrived at the hospital at 1:15.   I wonder if the DOA of 1:15 was just a guess ....  Perhaps the ambulance attendants told the doctor that Tippit was dead when they picked him up.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 22, 2019, 07:54:47 PM
(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)

See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 09:01:23 PM
Tippit's body was removed from the scene just after Bowley arrived at 1:10 and he was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15.

This is interesting Martin...  We know that TF Bowley arrived at 1:10 ( and there's no good reason to doubt that the time is reasonably accurate) And I believe he took a quick look at Tippit who was lying on the street, and then went to use Tippit's radio.  That time could have been anywhere between 1:10 and 1:12...

You say that Tippit's body was removed just after Bowley arrived ....  Is there verification for the time that the ambulance picked up Tippit's body?   It's difficult to believe that the ambulance could have arrived at the hospital at 1:15.   I wonder if the DOA of 1:15 was just a guess ....  Perhaps the ambulance attendants told the doctor that Tippit was dead when they picked him up.

Walt,

Bowley said in his affidavit to the DPD that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit just after he had been on the radio.

The arrival of the ambulance at the hospital (which was not far away) and the DOA time is confirmed by the report of Davenport and Bardin, posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 22, 2019, 09:06:55 PM
See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 09:55:20 PM
Walt,

Bowley said in his affidavit to the DPD that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit just after he had been on the radio.

The arrival of the ambulance at the hospital (which was not far away) and the DOA time is confirmed by the report of Davenport and Bardin, posted earlier in this thread.

Thank you Martin, ...I was not challenging your statement but my old mind doesn't work as good as it once did. And I had forgotten what Bowley said in his affidavit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 22, 2019, 10:02:24 PM
I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.

I believe that it was Sgt Gerald Hill who said that he left the TSBD immediately after he heard the radio report that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff.....And that report came over the radio just after the shells were found beneath the window.   ( The shells were found at 1:06 )  Hill said that the ambulance carrying Tippit's body passed in front of them as they exited the Houston street viaduct.   I believe that it would have taken less than five minutes to drive from the TSBD to the south side of the viaduct.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:33:42 AM
See, this is what is confusing to me, is the phrase "AT 1:15pm, pronounced dead" which logically one would read as meaning that the clock time was 1:15pm when Oswald was pronounced DOA.

That means the ambulance must have arrived at 10th and Patton about 3 minutes approx earlier at about 1:12pm which is just about right after Bowley makes a call about 1:10, which somehow gets recorded in the DPD dispatch record as 1:16pm

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

Or they are simply speaking in terms of rounding to the nearest fifteen minute interval versus being more precise.  Look at the three times mentioned in that offense report... 1:15, 1:30, 3:30.  Do you really believe all three of those events occurred at those exact times instead of the 15 minute rounding up/down?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:38:29 AM
Correction:  autopsy permit

[img]https://toseekanewrworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/metapth338334_l_dsma_91-001-1503054-3445_11.jpg[/im


Correct, the autopsy permit, not the death certificate... but where does it say what you claimed it says, that Tippit "was DOA at the hospital at 1:15"?  I think you're wrong.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:40:16 AM
Or they are simply speaking in terms of rounding to the nearest fifteen minute interval versus being more precise.  Look at the three times mentioned in that offense report... 1:15, 1:30, 3:30.  Do you really believe all three of those events occurred at exact 15 minute rounding up/down?

Another speculative hit and run.....

Follow that reasoning and you either have Tippit being declared DOA at 1:15 or 1:30......

Hang on, didn't Davenport state in his report that he witnessed that they tried to revive Tippit before declaring him DOA and that at 1:30 a bullet was already being removed from Tippit's body. I guess that rules out 1:30 as DOA time, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:41:04 AM
My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

Doughty and Dhority.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:42:48 AM
Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

Your assumption that they all saw the same man is unwarranted.

No, you're simply in denial.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:45:06 AM
Markham saw the shooting.

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

Therefore, witnesses "a block away from the crime scene" saw the killer.

No, you're simply in denial.

Or he simply accepts that eyewitness testimony (which is what you rely on) is the least unreliable evidence.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 23, 2019, 12:48:47 AM
I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.


Quote
There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11.

The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 01:08:40 AM

The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

Actually, it's about 1,5 miles

Check out google maps and find out for yourself.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:17:53 AM
Check out google maps and find out for yourself.

Does an Ambulance travel at the same speed as a car?
Does an Ambulance have the ability to run red lights?

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 01:24:39 AM
Does an Ambulance travel at the same speed as a car?
Does an Ambulance have the ability to run red lights?

JohnM

Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:45:40 AM
Doughty and Dhority.

Doughty and Dhority did not recover the alleged Davis shells from the crime scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:46:30 AM
No, you're simply in denial.

You can claim that they all saw the same man, but you have no basis for that claim.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:50:09 AM
Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

Quote
Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

Yep, in the middle of the day in the suburbs, there's always a lot of traffic!

JohnM


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:58:18 AM

Correct, the autopsy permit, not the death certificate... but where does it say what you claimed it says, that Tippit "was DOA at the hospital at 1:15"?  I think you're wrong.

"Place of death: DOA Methodist Hospital"
"Date and time of death: 1:15 PM, November 22, 1963"

The actual death certificate says that he died at 1:15, but his injury occurred at 1:18.  Go figure...

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/tippit-death-cert.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 01:59:22 AM
You can claim that they all saw the same man, but you have no basis for that claim.

Not only did they all see the same man, in fair line-ups they all identified Lee Harvey Oswald as that man.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 02:01:58 AM
Not only did they all see the same man,

Still no basis for this claim.

Quote
in fair line-ups they all identified Lee Harvey Oswald as that man.

"fair line-ups".  LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 02:05:10 AM
Still no basis for this claim.

That's a bizarre way to analyse the corroborated testimony but no worries, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 02:11:09 AM
That's a bizarre way to analyse the corroborated testimony but no worries, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

There is no testimony that says that they all saw the same person.  In fact, they all gave different descriptions.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 02:33:20 AM
Yep, in the middle of the day in the suburbs, there's always a lot of traffic!

JohnM

I take it this means you have no point.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 02:42:55 AM
I take it this means you have no point.

Huh?, we're discussing your comparison of the speed of a car in 2019 to the speed of an Ambulance in 1963 and beyond your alluding to an unknown suburban lunchtime traffic jam, you're still no closer to proving your initial assumption. Try again.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 03:06:05 AM
Huh?, we're discussing your comparison of the speed of a car in 2019 to the speed of an Ambulance in 1963 and beyond your alluding to an unknown suburban lunchtime traffic jam, you're still no closer to proving your initial assumption. Try again.

JohnM

We were discussing nothing of the kind, nor did I allude to a suburban lunchtime traffic jam, and there was no assumption on my part.

All I said was that according to google maps the distance between 10th street and the Methodist hospital on North Beckley is 1,5 miles and about a 7 minutes drive.

All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....

It's beyond me how that relates to Bill Brown's initial claim that an elusive time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson, which never was produced, allegedly showed that the call for an ambulance was received by the funeral home at 1:18 or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 23, 2019, 03:16:57 AM

All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....


I seriously don't have a dog in this hunt but your comparison of a car in 2019 to an Ambulance in 1963 is truly absurd and proves that you're not serious about solving anything.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 05:29:06 AM

The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

Maybe their sirens weren't working
And they got a flat tire

 ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
I seriously don't have a dog in this hunt but your comparison of a car in 2019 to an Ambulance in 1963 is truly absurd and proves that you're not serious about solving anything.

JohnM

There is no comparison of a car in 2019 to an ambulance in 1963. The distance between the location of Tippit's murder on 10th street and Methodist hospital on Beckley is the same now as it was then; 1,5 miles.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 01:39:29 PM
Heavy traffic at lunchtime on a Friday after the president is assassinated and schools and businesses are closing down?

What a bizarre notion.

 ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 05:44:58 PM
Still no basis for this claim.

"fair line-ups".  LOL.

John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 23, 2019, 06:46:55 PM
Heavy traffic at lunchtime on a Friday after the president is assassinated and schools and businesses are closing down?

What a bizarre notion.

 ::)

Indeed, not to mention the total confusion and chaos after Kennedy's murder and law enforcement cars blasting sirens all over the place.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 07:30:47 PM
John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Quote
Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 08:30:08 PM
John, You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Poor dumb cop, eh...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 08:35:25 PM
Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

 at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 23, 2019, 08:39:19 PM
Well, for one thing, at least two witnesses reported seeing two men, and/or an extra police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E 10th.

Only one witness claimed to see anybody shooting.  Guys standing halfway down Patton street just saw a guy "trotting".  How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?

Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on October 23, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
Why would they need to know what anybody else saw. They ID'd Oswald as the guy they saw.

from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 09:07:56 PM
from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~

A photo below of Ozzie in custody the same day Benavides observed and described Tippit's killer.
He's obviously not the person he saw at murder scene.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)

He's obviously not the person he (Benavides ) saw at murder scene.

Thank you, Gary, It's such a pleasure to read posts from intelligent, reasonable, and rational people. 

I'd like to add a bit more positive information....  Virtually all of the witnesses said the man removed the spent shells ONE AT A TIME as he walked away from the scene.  The gun that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald was a Smith & Wesson revolver .  Smith & Wesson revolvers are not unloaded by extracting one shell at a time ....   The Smith & Wesson is designed to remove all the shells at once with a single push of the extractor rod.    And the user hand is usually covered with burned gun powder.    Clearly the killer was NOT using a Smith and Wesson revolver.....So Lee Oswald could not have been the murderer.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
Not exactly. Some witnesses ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene during the shooting, and others ID'd him nearby shortly after.

Unfair, biased lineups are unreliable.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
OK ....Let's go with the percentage.....  80% of the witnesses reported only one man was the shooter.....

Bull.  Only one witness saw a shooter at all.

Quote
How could anyone possibly know they saw the same person Markham or Davis saw?  They saw the gun in his hands.....  How many men were at the scene or trotting up Patton carrying a gun?

How should I know?  Seeing a guy holding a gun (or in some cases not even holding a gun) at a different location is not the same as seeing a shooter.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
Why would they need to know what anybody else saw.

Because Bill Brown claimed that they all saw the same man.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 10:48:53 PM
Here's another.  Pronounced DOA at 1:15 pm.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 11:06:12 PM
Bull.  Only one witness saw a shooter at all.

How should I know?  Seeing a guy holding a gun (or in some cases not even holding a gun) at a different location is not the same as seeing a shooter.

Let me simplify that question for you....Were there reports of more than one man at the Tippit murder scene who was seen with a gun in his hand?

The man ( Singular) with the gun was the killer.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 23, 2019, 11:08:57 PM
Let me simplify that question for you....Were there reports of more than one man at the Tippit murder scene who was seen with a gun in his hand?

The man ( Singular) with the gun was the killer.

How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 23, 2019, 11:59:44 PM
Here's another.  Pronounced DOA at 1:15 pm.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)

WAs FBI agent VE Drain there at methodist hospital ??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 12:05:34 AM
WAs FBI agent VE Drain there at methodist hospital ??

I doubt it, but who said he signed the CSS form at the hospital?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 01:38:17 AM
Because Bill Brown claimed that they all saw the same man.

There's no need for any given witness to know what had actually happened in order to be able to independently ID someone as being a man he saw at or near the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
There's no need for any given witness to know what had actually happened in order to be able to independently ID someone as being a man he saw at or near the scene of the crime.

The question for those who have actually been paying attention is how does Bill Brown know that the witnesses saw the same man?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 24, 2019, 03:08:22 PM
I doubt it, but who said he signed the CSS form at the hospital?

I also doubt it....Drain probably signed his name on the document when he received it from the DPD at MID-NIGHT  11 / 22 /63.....Thanks to Gary Craig's posting of Captain George M Doughty's  affidavit we have proof that the evidence, which included the 3 X 5 card ( CE 637)  was turned over to the  FBI at midnight.   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 04:11:32 PM
I also doubt it....Drain probably signed his name on the document when he received it from the DPD at MID-NIGHT  11 / 22 /63.....

There's no reason to think so.  But that's completely irrelevant.  The point of posting that document was that it's yet another document that shows an earlier time for Tippit's death.  Try to focus.

Quote
Thanks to Gary Craig's posting of Captain George M Doughty's  affidavit we have proof that the evidence, which included the 3 X 5 card ( CE 637)  was turned over to the  FBI at midnight.   

What are you talking about?  Gary Craig didn't post an affidavit from Doughty.  What affidavit?

Sorry, Walt.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that CE637 was turned over to the FBI on 11/22.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 06:09:15 PM
The question for those who have actually been paying attention is how does Bill Brown know that the witnesses saw the same man?

Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 06:16:53 PM
Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)


you really are a dope.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 24, 2019, 06:17:24 PM
There's no reason to think so.  But that's completely irrelevant.  The point of posting that document was that it's yet another document that shows an earlier time for Tippit's death.  Try to focus.

What are you talking about?  Gary Craig didn't post an affidavit from Doughty.  What affidavit?

Sorry, Walt.  There is NO evidence whatsoever that CE637 was turned over to the FBI on 11/22.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page
Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/drainevidence1.png)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 06:50:19 PM

you really are a dope.

Name your shooter
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:51:52 PM
Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself.

Then why did you butt in with yet another one of your irrelevancies?

I was responding to Bill Brown's claims that:

Scoggins and the two Davis girls saw the same man seen by Markham.

Callaway and Guinyard saw the same man seen by Scoggins and the two Davis girls.

Reynolds, Patterson and Russell saw the same man seen by Callaway and Guinyard.

I never said that witnesses "would need to know what other possible witnesses saw".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=89&tab=page

Walt, that's not an affidavit, nor was it written by Doughty.

But regardless, it says nothing about an index card with a lift being given to the FBI on 11/22.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 07:01:55 PM
Bill Brown is fully capable of answering for himself. In the meantime, Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention and the question is why did you deflect to Bill Brown when my ask was focussed on prying an answer out of you regarding why you think any witnesses would need to know what other possible witnesses saw or described what they saw.

And tell us why you so conveniently left out that in your non-reply:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpJwGHsc/tippit-shooting-1-15-003.png)

Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention -- stop lying

And piggybacking the usual brown stuff from Brown doesn't make you look less of a redneck LN failure.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 07:16:58 PM
Then why did you butt in with yet another one of your irrelevancies?

I was responding to Bill Brown's claims that:

I never said that witnesses "would need to know what other possible witnesses saw".

 Thumb1: like I said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:31:44 PM

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ozzieshair3.jpg)

Oswald was seen in a jacket at the Tippit scene
An oversized jacket, I understand... nice big collar
Imagine the possibilities...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:39:27 PM
Bill Chapman has actually been paying attention -- stop lying

And piggybacking the usual brown stuff from Brown doesn't make you look less of a redneck LN failure.

You talk the talk... now say something clever



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 07:47:20 PM
Thumb1: like I said.

You said something?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2LbgfjQ/listen-cc.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 08:01:37 PM
You talk the talk... now say something clever

Any news on your cotton fiber research?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 24, 2019, 08:04:48 PM
Oswald was seen in a jacket at the Tippit scene
An oversized jacket, I understand... nice big collar
Imagine the possibilities...

"Oswald was seen".  LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 24, 2019, 08:09:13 PM

you really are a dope.

You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 08:29:53 PM
"Oswald was seen".  LOL.

Mystery Guest #2
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 24, 2019, 08:39:45 PM
You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!

Say something clever
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Goth on October 24, 2019, 10:21:19 PM
You bet, and Steven Galbraith just threw $100 into the pot.

Imagine him calculate his return-on-investment while watching Chapman talking through his ass!

 Thumb1: actually, it's just really bad stand-up, the orifice is the same though.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 25, 2019, 04:31:48 AM
Thumb1: actually, it's just really bad stand-up, the orifice is the same though.

Go ahead... make my day
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:00:55 AM
There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11.

The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.

Actually, it's about 1,5 miles

Check out google maps and find out for yourself.

I did check it out and I got 1.1 miles.  Am I missing something?

Either way, you somehow believe it takes an ambulance, sirens blaring, seven minutes to go a mile and a half? (though I don't believe it's that far)

Please explain.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:02:54 AM
Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

I haven't said that the ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:18.  Why lie?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:07:12 AM
We were discussing nothing of the kind, nor did I allude to a suburban lunchtime traffic jam, and there was no assumption on my part.

All I said was that according to google maps the distance between 10th street and the Methodist hospital on North Beckley is 1,5 miles and about a 7 minutes drive.

All you have been doing is desperately trying to reduce the theoretical driving time of the ambulance....

It's beyond me how that relates to Bill Brown's initial claim that an elusive time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson, which never was produced, allegedly showed that the call for an ambulance was received by the funeral home at 1:18 or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....


Quote
...or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....

Again, I haven't made that claim.  Are you lying or sadly confused?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:08:58 AM
John (Iacoletti), You're simply an ornery contrarian .....  Why the hell would you insist that a poster prove that there was only one man involved in the shooting of Tippit...

Virtually ALL of the witnesses said that there was only the one man shooting.

Well said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 08:36:58 AM
When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

I haven't said that the ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:18.  Why lie?

When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

My post that you responded to said nothing about the chain of custody of the two Davis shells.

But I have a question for you.  What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

Doughty and Dhority.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
When you tell lies, your point loses validity.

 Thumb1:

Explain.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 08:43:47 AM
Explain.

Doughty and Dhority.

You explain...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
What evidence do you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene?

Both sisters each recovered one of Oswald's shells, but I suppose these are just more "women" liars, is there any "females" who gave evidence against Oswald that are believable or do you just hate women!

Jeanette found a empty shell [sic] that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. After the Police had left I found a empty shell [sic] in our yard. This is the same shell I gave to Detective Dhority [sic]. The man that was unloading the gun was the same man I saw tonight as number 2 man in a line up.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/vdavis.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 08:54:13 AM
You explain...

So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 25, 2019, 09:12:08 AM
So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM

Thanks John.  Much appreciated and it means a lot to me coming from you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 09:16:29 AM
So you call Bill a liar and you don't even know why? Bloody amateurs!

He's a known liar but why would he need your help?

Btw Bill's forgotten more about this case than you could ever know.

JohnM

I'm less than impressed with what's left.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 09:44:12 AM
He's a known liar but why would he need your help?

I'm less than impressed with what's left.

Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 10:46:35 AM
Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM

Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Insulting Chapman and "watching him go down in flames" only reinforces my comments, Duh!

JohnM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 11:10:07 AM
Insulting Chapman and "watching him go down in flames" only reinforces my comments, Duh!

JohnM

Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:18:44 AM
Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.

The same rifle that Kleins sent was photographed with Oswald and was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints and matching shirt fibers.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6J5dSoCs3xw/maxresdefault.jpg)

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-69c81e708c3c0b6fc0ca879629564a24.webp)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 11:27:04 AM
The same rifle that Kleins sent was photographed with Oswald and was was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints and matching shirt fibers.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6J5dSoCs3xw/maxresdefault.jpg)

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-69c81e708c3c0b6fc0ca879629564a24.webp)

JohnM

The same rifle that Kleins sent -- LOL
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
The same rifle that Kleins sent -- LOL

Wow, again and again the same boring nothing response, you must be the life of the Party.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
Wow, again and again the same boring nothing response, you must be the life of the Party.

JohnM

Show us your evidence to support your claim (hint: Von P crapped out, no help there).
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 25, 2019, 03:23:54 PM
Both sisters each recovered one of Oswald's shells, but I suppose these are just more "women" liars, is there any "females" who gave evidence against Oswald that are believable or do you just hate women!

"Evidence against Oswald".  LOL.

Virginia also claimed she was 16.

But who said they lied about shells?  I asked what evidence you have that the shells known as "the two Davis shells" were ever at the crime scene.

CE2011, p. 7:

On June 18, 1964, Special Agents Kenneth R. AIbert and Paul E. Wulff, Federal Bureau of Investigation, contacted Mrs. Troy (Barbara Jeanette) Davis at her residence, Kirk's Store, Route 2, Palestine Highway, Athens, Texas, at which time Special Agent Wulff exhibited to her four .38 Special cartridge cases, C47 - C50. Mrs. Davis stated on November 22, 1963, she resided at 400 East 10th Street, Dallas, Texas, and at approximately 2:00 PM or shortly thereafter she found a similar cartridge case in the front yard of her former residence. At the time she found the cartridge case, an unknown Dallas police officer was standing approximately five feet from her and she immediately gave the cartridge case to him. She cannot identify the cartridge case she found as being one of those exhibited to her.

. . .

On June 18, 1964, Special Agents Kenneth S. AIbert and Paul E. Wulff contacted Mrs. Charley Reagan (Virginia) Davis at 418 West Scott Street, Athens, Texas, at which time Special Agent Wulff exhibited to her four .38 special cartridge cases, C47 - C50. Mrs. Davis stated on November 22, 1963, she resided at 400 East 10th Street, Dallas, Texas, and at approximately 3:30 PM that date she found a cartridge case in the front yard of that residence which she furnished to an unidentified officer of the Dallas Police Department at approximately 6:00 PM that same date. She advised she was unable to identify the cartridge case she found as being one of the four exhibited to her.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 25, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
Would be much more interesting if you could "reinforce" your #1 lie on your list of lies:

1. Oswald lied about owning the rifle.

Excellent point!....  Lee denied owning "A"  rifle...  not necessarily "THE" rifle.....    You can start by proving that he owned THE rifle. ( The Carcano C 2766)  and thereby verifying the bold statement that he lied. 

Good luck.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 25, 2019, 03:28:46 PM
The same rifle that Kleins sent

LOL

Quote
was photographed with Oswald

LOL

Quote
and was found on the 6th floor along with Oswald's prints

LOL

Quote
and matching shirt fibers.

LOL
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 25, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!

JohnM

Here's one for Bill:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGNED-RUTH-HYDE-PAINE-3X5-INDEX-CARD-JFK-ASSASSINATION-/173979872610
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 25, 2019, 08:59:40 PM
Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald Tippit dead


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 25, 2019, 11:45:58 PM
Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA.... :D

If Oswald was DOA at 1:15...   was he resurrected so he could be in the Texas Theater at 1:50 ??


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 25, 2019, 11:56:37 PM
Tippet shot at 1:06pm
shooter leaves scene by 1:07
Benevides waits "couple of minutes" after shooter has left scene= 1:09
Bowley arrives 1:10, operates radio just after Benevides got to car and was trying to use radio.
DPD dispatcher  call about 1:10:30, calls ambulance
Ambulance takes about 1.5 minutes to arrive at 10th and Patton at 1:12
1 minute to load body into ambulance at 1:13
1.5 minute back to hospital= 1:14:30
30 sec to unload and rush body into emergency room =1:15pm
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA


This time line seems to work rather well and it does not require any extra explanation like "1:15 was really just an estimate made by the doctor as to when he thought the death might have occured earlier", nor does it require suggesting that Bowley, and Markam were both mistaken about their times.

The only thing it does not work with is the DPD time stamp of the dispatch record of 1:16 for a call from 10th and Patton. But 1:10 could have easily been changed to 1:16 just like that 1:06 was typed over with 1:15pm

Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 12:20:20 AM
Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM

I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Or ...the man who shot him....  Benavides obviously was hesitant to rebuke the police, but he knew that Lee Oswald was NOT the man who shot Tippit, and he wanted to make that known....So he said "or the man who shot him".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 12:27:18 AM
Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see then?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

JohnM

So desperate... it's pitiful

Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Care to tell us what "time manipulation" you are talking about?

Btw Weidmann presented evidence that the ambulance trip would taken a lot longer.

Actually, no I didn't. That's just one of your typical misrepresentations of the evidence. You just can't help yourself, can you now?



It's a telling sign when a die hard LN finds himself confronted with information he can not counter with credible arguments. They will try every trick in the book, ranging from outright dismissal to ridicule, from trying to change the subject to muddy the waters and pretending not to understand and so on.

There's just one thing they will never ever do; enter into an open and honest discussion about the information that has been presented.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 26, 2019, 12:28:56 AM
I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Or ...the man who shot him....  Benavides obviously was hesitant to rebuke the police, but he knew that Lee Oswald was NOT the man who shot Tippit, and he wanted to make that known....So he said "or the man who shot him".

Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 12:53:23 AM
Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM


Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

Lee Oswald's mug shot on 11 /22/63 shows that the back of his head DID NOT appear to be flat....  His hair was totally different than the man who shot Tippit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 26, 2019, 01:05:01 AM

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

Lee Oswald's mug shot on 11 /22/63 shows that the back of his head DID NOT appear to be flat....  His hair was totally different than the man who shot Tippit.

 Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:

(http://harveyandlee.net/November/Jacket%20CE%20162.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tgh3sCw/back-jacket.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2019, 01:14:23 AM
Quite the contrary, I've never felt better, especially exposing fiber expert Cotton Joe Chapman and watching him go down in flames.

However, he does pay for the chaos and damage from what I can tell by viewing the donation list.

But wait, I haven't seen you two suckers donate a single dollar.... ???

Re my donations, you've just insulted the admin, fool... buh-bye
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 26, 2019, 02:08:07 AM
AT 1:15pm, Dr Ligouri pronounces Oswald DOA.... :D

If Oswald was DOA at 1:15...   was he resurrected so he could be in the Texas Theater at 1:50 ??

FIXED IT  :)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 08:36:14 AM
Here's one for Bill:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGNED-RUTH-HYDE-PAINE-3X5-INDEX-CARD-JFK-ASSASSINATION-/173979872610

No need.  I have a personalized letter sent to my home from her thanking me for getting her around last month while she was in Dallas.  Very nice woman.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Otto Beck on October 26, 2019, 09:38:44 AM
No need.  I have a personalized letter sent to my home from her thanking me for getting her around last month while she was in Dallas.  Very nice woman.

Nice fetish, should bring you may hours of joy.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 02:46:13 PM
FIXED IT  :)

That was and obvious error...., and funny....   I often omit the word "not"  ...As in Lee Could        have been on the sixth floor" which is not so obviously an error.

Just shows to go that we're human and      perfect ...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 26, 2019, 04:57:09 PM
Wow that's some really neat speculation but the Elephant in the Room is that Oswald was positively identified

In unfair and biased lineups, by people who saw no crime committed.

Quote
and Oswald was arrested with the murder weapon

Still false.

Quote
and no amount of time manipulation can change those basics.

Manipulation is required to invent those “basics”.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 26, 2019, 05:00:18 PM
Benavides is just 1 of many meaning that your interpretation of his words is obviously wrong and btw Benavides does go on to confirm that the man was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


That’s not a confirmation or a positive ID. That’s called being influenced by the media.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2019, 08:15:12 PM
That’s not a confirmation or a positive ID. That’s called being influenced by the media.

Influenced by the media?....   Are you forgetting that Benavides had seen Lee Oswald lynched while in the custody of the DPD.  He had told the DPD on 11/22/63 that he got a really good look at Tippit's killer and he's seen the pictures of Lee Oswald on TV that afternoon , and he didn't think that Lee Oswald was the man he'd seen with the smoking gun at the Tippit murder scene.  Of course the cops didn't want to hear that so they didn't want him at any line up.  Benavides was smart enough to  chose his words carefully .... He had no desire to become an" accident" victim.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2019, 08:23:09 PM
In unfair and biased lineups, by people who saw no crime committed.

Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 08:34:30 PM
Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.

“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:39:23 PM
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule

Based on my observations, that is exactly what YOU do... over and over again.  I've seen it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:47:03 PM
Nice fetish, should bring you may hours of joy.

 Thumb1:

Original research.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 09:51:33 PM
Based on my observations, that is exactly what YOU do... over and over again.  I've seen it.

Which only tells us something about the quality of your "observations"....

Care to discuss the Markham/Bowley/Davenport/Methodist hospital timeline and tell me where I am wrong?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 09:59:31 PM
Which only tells us something about the quality of your "observations"....

Care to discuss the Markham/Bowley/Davenport/Methodist hospital timeline and tell me where I am wrong?

First, explain to me why you're misquoting me.  I've never said that the ambulance arrived at Methodist at 1:18.  Why are you attributing that to me?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 26, 2019, 10:41:19 PM
First, explain to me why you're misquoting me.  I've never said that the ambulance arrived at Methodist at 1:18.  Why are you attributing that to me?

Where did I say that? If I did, I must have made a mistake, because I don't recall you ever said that.

You said that a time stamp card of the funeral home shows that the call for an ambulance was received at 1:18 PM.
You were going to find that time stamp card but you never produced it so I guess you did not find it.

So, let's (again) try to go back to basics;

Can you come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps you can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 11:27:34 PM
How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 26, 2019, 11:31:55 PM
Where did I say that? If I did, I must have made a mistake, because I don't recall you ever said that.


You've said it more than once over the past few days.

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:05:18 AM

You've said it more than once over the past few days.

Ah, so it's you who is cherry picking and misrepresenting what I said;

I replied to a post by Zeon Mason;


I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record


my - complete - reply was;

I maybe mistaken, but I think I remember Bill Brown having a thread many years back, in which Bill suggested the 1:15pm time was the physicians ESTIMATE of the time of death made, and that the actual time of arrival of the ambulance to the hospital emergency room was 1:18pm based on some other record

I remember that Brown argued that the ambulance couldn't have been at the hospital at 1:15 because a time stamp card of the funeral home allegedly documented the departure of the ambulance from Jefferson as having taken place at 1:18. The problem with that argument is that nobody has ever been able to produce that time stamp card and the only reference to it being made (as far as I know) is a rather vague statement of a funeral home employee to the HSCA.

There's also another indicator that the ambulance's arrival at the hospital at 1:18 doesn't do Brown any favor. When you trace the fastest route between 10th street and the hospital on North Beckley, on Google map, the estimated drive time is 7 minutes. Had the ambulance arrived at 1:18, it would mean that it must have picked up Tippit - at best - 7 minutes earlier, at 1:11. Obviously, that's a far cry from the ambulance leaving the funeral home at 1:18. On the other hand, it is within a reasonable margin of error (of 3 minutes or so) in the Markham/Bowley/Ambulance/ Davenport scenario.

In any event; let's not forget that Markham saw Tippit being shot prior to the arrival of Bowley (at 1:10) and Bowley saw the ambulance pick up Tippit just after he made his radio call. Combined, this information means that Tippit must have been shot somewhere between 1:06 and 1:10.

You then replied to my post;


The hospital was only a mile away.  Seven minutes?  Hardly.


I then replied to a post by John Mytton about the speed of ambulances and sirens;


Sure they do, depending on traffic..... So, what is your point?

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....


"Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital" is a far cry from misquoting you..

I can not misquote you when you never said it. So why do you say I lie, when in fact I have argued that Zeon's recollection was wrong?

I see you are still playing word games rather than dealing with the content of posts. I seriously doubt that our renewed conversation will have a long life if that continues.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:08:29 AM
Ah, so it's you who is cherry picking and misrepresenting what I said;

I replied to a post by Zeon Mason;

my - complete - reply was;

You then replied to my post;

I then replied to a post by John Mytton about the speed of ambulances and sirens;

"Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital" is a far cry from misquoting you..

I can not misquote you when you never said it. So why do you say I lie, when in fact I have argued that Zeon's recollection was wrong?

I see you are still playing word games rather than dealing with the content of posts. I seriously doubt that our renewed conversation may well be short lived if that continues.

You said it more than once, asshole.  You were wrong each time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:10:49 AM
You said it more than once, asshole.  You were wrong each time.

I never said you said it, jerk

You're still the same dishonest waste of time I have come to know.... 

.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 12:21:05 AM
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”

..... or use oversimplified meaningless ridicule

Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:23:46 AM
I never said you said it, jerk

This time you are the one who is wrong.

And the discussion is over again..... I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt, you are still as much a jackass as you were when we first discussed a topic.


You did say it, more than once... and therefore, I am not simply playing word games or cherry picking. 

In the past, Bill Brown argued that a time stamp card from the funeral home at Jefferson showed that the call was received at 1:18.
Now he seems to go with 1:18 as the time Tippit arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away....

...or even his current suggestion that Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital, 1,5 miles away, at 1:18....


Question...

How can you tell when Weidmann is beat?

Answer...

He falls back on the "word games" accusation.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 12:24:17 AM

You did say it, more than once... and therefore, I am not simply playing word games or cherry picking. 


Question...

How can you tell when Weidmann is beat?

Answer...

He falls back on the "word games" accusation.

The question reveals Brown's true mindset.... This was not a game where one "beats" his opponent.

This was Brown lying about me having said that he said something, when I never did anything of the kind.

For Brown all this is, is about "winning" and his ego..... the true mark of a real highly insecure loser!

My decision to stay well clear of you in the past was the correct one and the one I am returning to after this post.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:29:27 AM
The question reveals Brown's true mindset.... This was not a game where one "beats" his opponent.

This was Brown lying about me having said that he said something, when I never did anything of the kind.

For Brown all this is, is about "winning" and his ego..... the true mark of a real loser!

No.

This is about nothing more than me wishing to not be misquoted, which you did twice.

I asked you why you misquoted me.  Your response was to deny misquoting me and then to accuse me of playing word games and cherry-picking.  So, in addition to being wrong, you also try to switch it around and begin accusing me.  After your charade, I called you an asshole (which you were typically being) and you get your feelings hurt and lash out even more.

You misquoted me, TWICE.  No word games or cherry-picking on my part.

Get over yourself, asshole.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 12:31:12 AM
Every one of your posts is filled with hate, vile accusations and stupidity. It must Suck to be you!
And you're Mr Love and Affection? :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 12:42:34 AM
Everybody catch up...

(https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/images/Davenport.jpg)

Why are there a half dozen threads open on the same subject? Also... why change the subject after it's posted? Once and for all, someone cannot be shot to death and then pronounced officially dead at the very same time. The officer was not 'wounded'...he was dead. Also someone changed the time -it was 1:0 [something] ::)


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 12:49:26 AM
My decision to stay well clear of you in the past was the correct one and the one I am returning to after this post.


(https://i.imgur.com/N9sX3Tl.gif)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 27, 2019, 01:51:47 AM
No.

This is about nothing more than me wishing to not be misquoted, which you did twice.

I asked you why you misquoted me.  Your response was to deny misquoting me and then to accuse me of playing word games and cherry-picking.  So, in addition to being wrong, you also try to switch it around and begin accusing me.  After your charade, I called you an asshole (which you were typically being) and you get your feelings hurt and lash out even more.

You misquoted me, TWICE.  No word games or cherry-picking on my part.

Get over yourself, asshole.

If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 01:04:47 AM
If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM

You really should leave pathetic strawman arguments to Richard Smith, John. He's far more experienced in it than you.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:57:37 AM
Influenced by the media?....   Are you forgetting that Benavides had seen Lee Oswald lynched while in the custody of the DPD.  He had told the DPD on 11/22/63 that he got a really good look at Tippit's killer and he's seen the pictures of Lee Oswald on TV that afternoon , and he didn't think that Lee Oswald was the man he'd seen with the smoking gun at the Tippit murder scene.

No he didn’t. That’s a Walt fabrication. He just said that he couldn’t make a positive ID.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:00:24 AM
Judge Johnny Court Now in Session

Callaway: I heard shots and saw Oswald from 12-15 feet away, carrying a gun
Judge Johnny: Did you see him shoot anybody?
Callaway: No
Judge Johnny: Case dismissed. Mr. Oswald, you can go.

Is this your way of acknowledging that Callaway didn’t see a crime committed?

“12-15 feet away”. LOL.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 02:01:04 AM
If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with and who leaves his jacket under a car and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket and who punches a cop and then tries to kill more cops, then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?, would a live video even be enough evidence?

But I guess;
A dozen people simply picked Oswald to be sent to his death because they were all too stupid.
and the shells that the Davis women picked up proved they were also involved.
and Brewer was mistaken
and the ticket seller Postal was mistaken.
and the Police officers at the theater were also involved or mistaken or too stupid.

Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake and in a relatively dark theater would be the perfect time to kill him but instead let him live to blab to the world. Some conspiracy.

JohnM

That's right, John.

Bill Smith, Helen Markham, William Scoggins, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson.  Enough said.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:09:37 AM
Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

How about Warren Reynolds?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:13:51 AM
How can you tell when Bill Brown is beaten?

He starts playing word games and namecalling.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:19:41 AM
If someone can get away with killing a cop in front of eyewitnesses and while leaving the scene is seen fiddling with his weapon, and shells are seen dropped which are exclusively linked to the weapon he is arrested with

LOL

Quote
and who leaves his jacket under a car

LOL

Quote
and who enters a dark theatre without buying a ticket

LOL

Quote
and who punches a cop

LOL

Quote
and then tries to kill more cops,

LOL

Quote
then I'd hate to think how much evidence would be needed?,

How about some evidence that those claims are actually true?

Quote
Btw the Police easily could have killed Oswald in the theater, Oswald was carrying a gun for goodness sake

Maybe because he wasn’t? Well done!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 02:23:25 AM
That's right, John.

Bill Smith, Helen Markham, William Scoggins, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Harold Russell, Warren Reynolds and Pat Patterson.  Enough said.

Unfair, biased lineups and single photo identifications months after the fact in some cases. Enough said.

P.S. Bill Smith, LOL

WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH, age 20, 328 1/2 East 8th Street, was interviewed at the residence or his brother-in-law, TIMMIE ANZALDUA, 1831 Idaho Street, Dallas. He advised that he observed Officer TIPPIT when he was being shot by an unknown white male but he did not report it to the police because he claimed he had been on two year's probation for auto theft and he thought he might get in trouble with the police. He said he was too far away from the individual to positively identify him but he said he was a white male, about 5' 7" to 5'8", 20 to 25 years of age, 150-160, wearing a white shirt, light brown jacket and dark pants.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:26:50 AM
LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

How about some evidence that those claims are actually true?

Maybe because he wasn’t? Well done!

John really needs to persue a career as a comedian.

Some sleezy down town bars in Sydney might even employ him... if only for a night
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 04:13:48 AM
How about Warren Reynolds?

Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away? Or from across the street where the guy carrying the gun he ID'd as Oswald threw his jacket under a car in the gas station? That Warren Reynolds?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 04:21:55 AM
You really should leave pathetic strawman arguments to Richard Smith, John. He's far more expecienced in it than you.
He's far more expecienced experienced in it than you. Fixed it :)
They all seem quite trollish...no experience necessary there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 05:13:22 AM
Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?

Go back to sleep, Chapman.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 05:34:18 AM
Go back to sleep, Chapman.

Poor dumb cop
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 27, 2019, 06:05:23 AM
Is this your way of acknowledging that Callaway didn’t see a crime committed?

“12-15 feet away”. LOL.

What difference does that make? He didn't have to see a crime committed to hear shots and ID Oswald as the guy carrying a gun.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:46:23 AM
How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

How about Warren Reynolds?

No.

Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:47:31 AM
How can you tell when Bill Brown is beaten?

He starts playing word games and namecalling.

(https://i.imgur.com/89WBPht.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:51:10 AM
Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.


The timeline....

TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15

Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.  (With Malice, 2013, pg. 136)

Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the door, she saw a man walking across her front yard unloading a gun.  She then heard Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed.  Davis looked over and saw the police car.  Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police.  (affidavit, 11/22/63)

L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting.  He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots to report a shooting.  (affidavit, 8/26/64)

Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:16 from the "citizen using the police radio".  Upon being told by the citizen that a police man had been shot and that it was near Marsalis, Beckley and Tenth Street, Jackson immediately calls out for "78".  After getting no response, he again calls out for "78".  Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's call number and he knows Tippit was driving car number 10.  On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78".  That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:16, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.

Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police almost immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:16, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson.  If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by his superiors and told to put an all-points bulletin.  No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:16.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 27, 2019, 08:56:57 AM
Unfair, biased lineups and single photo identifications months after the fact in some cases. Enough said.

P.S. Bill Smith, LOL

WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH, age 20, 328 1/2 East 8th Street, was interviewed at the residence or his brother-in-law, TIMMIE ANZALDUA, 1831 Idaho Street, Dallas. He advised that he observed Officer TIPPIT when he was being shot by an unknown white male but he did not report it to the police because he claimed he had been on two year's probation for auto theft and he thought he might get in trouble with the police. He said he was too far away from the individual to positively identify him but he said he was a white male, about 5' 7" to 5'8", 20 to 25 years of age, 150-160, wearing a white shirt, light brown jacket and dark pants.


Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:54:02 PM
The timeline....

We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 01:55:31 PM

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

That’s almost as lame as claiming that Benavides “identified Oswald” because he said “Oswald or the guy who shot him” in his testimony.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 02:58:31 PM
We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.

Indeed,

So, under no circumstance could you put any stock in the real world time references by the belt because there were no time references on the belt; they were only spoken times, and those spoken times had no faithful validity... - James C. Bowles, Communications Supervisor of the Dallas Police Department.


but it's no real surprise;


It's a telling sign when a die hard LN finds himself confronted with information he can not counter with credible arguments. They will try every trick in the book, ranging from outright dismissal to ridicule, from trying to change the subject to muddy the waters and pretending not to understand and so on.

There's just one thing they will never ever do; enter into an open and honest discussion about the information that has been presented.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 27, 2019, 03:07:04 PM
We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.

Haven't you learned that debating Bill Brown, Bill Crapman, Davey Von P, and any LNer is like debating with a Flat Earth believer ......   No matter how much evidence you present they will not accept the truth.   Primarily because they are cowards and are afraid to accept the truth.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 03:14:18 PM
Haven't you learned that debating Bill Brown, Bill Crapman, Davey Von P, and any LNer is like debating with a Flat Earth believer ......   No matter how much evidence you present they will not accept the truth.   Primarily because they are cowards and are afraid to accept the truth.

Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 27, 2019, 04:01:30 PM
Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?

Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 27, 2019, 04:04:06 PM
Walt,

Isn't debating them the best way to expose their dishonesty?

Martin, Do you really believe that those who have the ability to reason, can't see for themselves, that these guys are dishonest and will never ever stop lying?...

P.S  Martin there are only a few members of this forum that I respect.....  Those are the few who can see the truth ( thattThe authorities framed and lynched Lee Oswald)   And you are high on my list.    However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW......   So I can't understand why you can't see the BS ruse that the FBI and the DPD created so they could confirm the Key conspirator's ( Henry Wade )lie  about  finding  quote... "his prints on the gun"

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano....But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens)
 and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 27, 2019, 05:19:49 PM
Martin, Do you really believe that those who have the ability to reason, can't see for themselves, that these guys are dishonest and will never ever stop lying?...

P.S  Martin there are only a few members of this forum that I respect.....  Those are the few who can see the truth ( thattThe authorities framed and lynched Lee Oswald)   And you are high on my list.    However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW......   So I can't understand why you can't see the BS ruse that the FBI and the DPD created so they could confirm the Key conspirator's ( Henry Wade )lie  about  finding  quote... "his prints on the gun"

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano....But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens)
 and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.


Walt,

However I'm disappointed that you can't seem to understand the lie the authorities created about finding Lee Oswald's palm print.    For me it's as obvious as an Elephant in a VW...... 

It's not so much that I don't understand your argument. I also understand the counter argument and quite honestly I simply do not have enough information to make a well balanced, objective and factual determination either way. I try to only have opinions about things I know enough about. That's why I stayed clear of the conversation after asking the questions I wanted answers for.

Lee Oswald's prints have never been found on the carcano

The FBI did indeed not find any prints on the rifle on 11/23/63. They could not even find a trace of a print having been lifted from the rifle, which, in mind, calls into question the tale Day came up with.

But Henry Wades lie was instrumental in duping the dumb pissants (LBJ's name for us citizens) and leading them to believe that Lee was guilty of murdering JFK.

Actually, I'm not so sure about that. Wade's lie (that prints belonging to Oswald had been found on the rifle, when they weren't) is just one of many false and incorrect statements made by law enforcement officials in the first days. I don't think any particular falsehood or error would have been decisive in convicting Oswald in the court of public opinion.

Can we now please return to the topic of this thread; being "Tippit's shooting 1:15"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 27, 2019, 05:45:57 PM
The timeline....
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15... Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting.   
Of course, Ms Wright had them on speed dial and they answer on the first ring :D
 
We spend pages and pages discussing the inaccuracy of the police clocks and Bill Brown just regurgitates the same thing he posted previously.
Sounds more like the slimeline to me :-\   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 01:54:24 AM
Go back to sleep, Chapman.

Wake up and stop dodging, Iacoletti.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 28, 2019, 02:09:15 AM
Can we now please return to the topic of this thread; being "Tippit's shooting 1:15"?
Except that Mr Brown insists on opening multiple threads on the same topic. Then his fellow ODIA theorists chime in by changing the subject.
At the risk of seeming redundant myself-----Tippit's shooting had to be much earlier. Evidence here......
  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,697.msg65703.html#new
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:32:42 AM
Lee Harvey Occam-Oswald
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:44:39 AM
Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.

 :'(

And by the way, why do you have a need to change people's minds?
What fear drives that need?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 02:53:39 AM
That’s almost as lame as claiming that Benavides “identified Oswald” because he said “Oswald or the guy who shot him” in his testimony.

Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 03:34:34 AM
Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.

No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on October 28, 2019, 03:50:36 AM
No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.

First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on October 28, 2019, 04:00:20 AM
First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM

So, if Benavides was so sure, why did he not participate in the line up identifications? Seems a critical witness......

Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell.

Stupid question... Benavides saw Oswald's picture in the media and that's also how he knew his name.... It's not as if they cared about Oswald's privacy back then!

And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Bla bla bla... don't you ever get tired of your own crap?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:15:01 AM
Wake up and stop dodging, Iacoletti.

I’m not dodging anything. You piped in with one of your irrelevancies without reading the thread.

Again.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:16:32 AM
:'(

And by the way, why do you have a need to change people's minds?
What fear drives that need?

When did I say I wanted to change anybody’s mind? In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re just not very good at this, are you?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:17:30 AM
Benavides (on second thought, it seems) gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, since he didn't know the name of guy with the gun at the time.

At the time of his testimony?  :D

The hits just keep coming!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 04:20:42 AM
First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw,

No, he said he “figured” it was Oswald”, whatever that means. On 11/22, he said he didn’t think he could identify him.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 05:01:30 PM
First of all Benavides goes on to say he identified Oswald from the pictures of Oswald that he saw, so stop with this insane cherry picking and beside how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, Oswald also went by O'H Lee and Alek Hidell. And btw the singular "Oswald" doesn't really define Lee Harvey Oswald, the name Oswald applied to perhaps hundreds or even thousands of people across America.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM

how would Benavides know whose real name the murderer was, \
Huh?   Nobody has suggested that Benavides knew the name of the killer.....  Benavides  simply said "OR the guy that shot him," which means he knew the guy was not Lee Oswald......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 05:22:50 PM
At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

Some “identification”.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
When did I say I wanted to change anybody’s mind? In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re just not very good at this, are you?

Stop squirming... and why do you attempt, for instance, to push your atheism down people's throats if you don't want to change people's minds? You have the same attitude here.

You said:
"Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 05:36:55 PM
At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

Some “identification”.

At a minimum it indicates that Benavides wasn’t certain about who it was.

IMO I think Benavides is saying, " I know that popular belief, and the news media,  says that the man was Oswald, but I saw the man face to face, and he was not the man that I saw later that day on TV.   

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 05:54:53 PM

At the time of his testimony?  :D
>>> in reference to his situation on scene at the time

The hits just keep coming!
>>> My condolences; you are definitely punch-drunk


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 06:14:16 PM
No, Dummy..That's not right.    Benavides said OR the guy that shot him, which means he knew the guy's name was NOT  Oswald.

 ::)

Stop changing your tune. You've claimed an alternate shooter all along
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 28, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
I’m not dodging anything. You piped in with one of your irrelevancies without reading the thread.

Again.

Reply #301 Iacoletti:
Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching.


>>> 'You're not ever going to change their minds'

Keep dodging, Slick..

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 28, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
Stop squirming...

I’m not squirming. You foolishly thought I said that Reynolds was 2 blocks away from the man he saw. Because you don’t read and understand threads before you chime in.

Quote
and why do you attempt, for instance, to push your atheism down people's throats if you don't want to change people's minds? You have the same attitude here.

Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.

Quote
You said:
"Exactly. You’re not ever going to change their minds, but you’re exposing their fallacies for everybody else who’s watching".

Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 28, 2019, 06:51:55 PM
::)

Stop changing your tune. You've claimed an alternate shooter all along

Yes, that's a fact..... I've always said that Lee Oswald was NOT the killer.    So I don't know why you think I'm "changing my tune"
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on October 29, 2019, 02:50:26 AM
How is a witness two blocks away seeing a man with a gun supposed to know that the man killed somebody?

Which witness are you referring to who was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?

How about Warren Reynolds?

No.

Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.


So which witness was "two blocks away seeing a man with a gun"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 04:21:08 AM
Warren Reynolds was exactly one block away from the shooting.

Thanks. The point is the same.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 05:00:43 AM
Yes, that's a fact..... I've always said that Lee Oswald was NOT the killer.    So I don't know why you think I'm "changing my tune"

You've said a lot of things
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 06:12:50 AM

I’m not squirming. You foolishly thought I said that Reynolds was 2 blocks away from the man he saw. Because you don’t read and understand threads before you chime in.
>>> Tell us what your '2 blocks' refers to

Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.
>>> Where did I say you used those exact words. 

Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
>>> That's a two-way street
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 29, 2019, 02:32:10 PM
>>> That's a two-way street
Is that a 100% chance that it probably is a two way street? :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 02:44:32 PM
>>> Tell us what your '2 blocks' refers to

How far the witness was from the crime, which Bill Brown helpfully corrected. Which you would have known if you had read and understood the conversation before chiming in.

Quote
Please cite me ever “pushing atheism down people’s throats”. Exact words, please.
>>> Where did I say you used those exact words. 

No, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Cite me ever doing that. And quote the exact words I used in allegedly doing so.

Quote
Right, Mr. Reading Comprehension. I was agreeing with Martin that the point of debating WC evangelists here is not to change their minds.
>>> That's a two-way street

Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong when you assumed that I had a need to change people’s minds? Or is this going to be another one of your hit and runs?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 29, 2019, 07:18:26 PM
'none of it has ever panned out'
... for you. My condolences.

Meanwhile, Walt's fabrications have earned him a lengthy list of things he's said

Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 10:12:14 PM
Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.

I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 04:36:10 AM

How far the witness was from the crime, which Bill Brown helpfully corrected. Which you would have known if you had read and understood the conversation before chiming in.
>>> I know what your '2 blocks' referred to. And you exaggerated the distance on purpose.

No, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Cite me ever doing that. And quote the exact words I used in allegedly doing so.
>>> Review your comments on TAE

Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong when you assumed that I had a need to change people’s minds? Or is this going to be another one of your hit and runs?
>>> Your rabid support of atheism speaks volumes
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 30, 2019, 02:04:27 PM
>>> I know what your '2 blocks' referred to.

You didn’t when you said:

“Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”

Quote
>>> Review your comments on TAE

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Yet another empty claim.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 30, 2019, 06:37:08 PM
I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)

Yes, we have seen the list :D

But Walt makes some good points none the less :)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 09:46:58 PM
Yes, a couple of folks have kept a record of my theories and discoveries....I'm flattered.

And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 30, 2019, 10:09:37 PM

You didn’t when you said: “Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”
>>> I didn't need to know the exact number of blocks. My automatic reaction to anything you say is permanently steeped in mistrust.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Yet another empty claim.
>>> Stay tuned..

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 31, 2019, 12:18:56 AM
You didn’t when you said: “Warren Reynolds ID'd Oswald from 2 blocks away?”
>>> I didn't need to know the exact number of blocks. My automatic reaction to anything you say is permanently steeped in mistrust.

Nice backpedal. Just don’t misrepresent what I say — whether you agree with it or not.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 31, 2019, 12:21:33 AM
I don’t know who has done that, but I’ve compiled a list of claims you’ve made up with no evidence to support them (other than your legendary “common sense”).

 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html)

Actually, Walter is right about this one, except light hitting a white surface in shadow will appear purple, not blue:

WF29: The ticket booth is not in the sunlight.....it is in the shade, therefore it appears blue
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 31, 2019, 09:22:05 PM
Actually, Walter is right about this one, except light hitting a white surface in shadow will appear purple, not blue:

WF29: The ticket booth is not in the sunlight.....it is in the shade, therefore it appears blue

Doesn't it depend on the film in the camera?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 03, 2019, 04:44:26 AM

Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 03, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
Nice backpedal. Just don’t misrepresent what I say — whether you agree with it or not.

How about you not misrepresent a one-block distance as being two blocks, cheater...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 03, 2019, 10:09:31 PM
Still not one serious attempt by an LNr to deal with the combined information below and provide even a weak argument to counter it.

Let's give it one more try;

Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. But even if she left home later than she said, how would she be able to see Tippit being shot at 1:14 or 1:15 when she was catching her regular bus to work on Jefferson at that same time? In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

If one argues that Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:14 or 1:15 it inescapebly means that Bowley's arrival at 10th/Patton also needs to be pushed back to - at the earliest - 1:17 or 1:18. This in turn would not only mean that he left his daughter waiting for him at school for some time, which is a foolish notion by itself, but it also does not square with his alleged radio call at 1:16 or the arrival of the ambulance shortly after he made that radio call.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD officer Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps somebody can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Also, does anybody care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which, according to Bowles, could be two minutes ahead or behind "official time" (whatever that means) and recorded on voice actived devices?

I bet you, not one LN is going to be willing or able to honestly discuss this timeline.

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there.You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 03, 2019, 11:23:12 PM
You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there.You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

His Landlady (Mrs Roberts) at 1026 N. Beckley said that she saw Lee standing on the side walk in front of the rooming house at about 1:04.  ( Mrs Roberts said that Lee arrived at 1:00 pm and the WC confirmed that time of arrival. Mrs Roberts said that lee was in his room several minutes and then departed. ( Time about 1:04)  Mrs Markham said that she saw the man who shot Tippit walking east on 10th street a couple of minutes before she witnessed the man shoot Tippit at 1:06.

These are FACTS Mr Hardaker.....  And here's another Fact....

The witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME....

The Smith and Wesson revolver is not unloaded ONE SHELL AT A TIME..... The S&W is unloaded by swinging thw cylinder out of the frame ans unloading all six chambers AT ONCE.....  Tippits killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.    The revolver that allegedly was taken from Lee at the Theater was a Smith & Wesson.....

Deal with reality Mr Hardaker.....







 

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 03, 2019, 11:43:44 PM

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there. You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, all you are really interested in is keeping Oswald inside the timeframe, regardless of facts or reason?

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

True, but I think I can safely say that it wasn't at super sonic speed or the speed of sound, just in case you ever want to go there.

Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe.

Get your fact straight. I did not say that Oswald couldn't be there. I actually said; "which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there". There is a difference!

But I'll answer your misguided comment anyway, with some facts (you know what they are, right?). The actual distance between the two locations requires a certain minimal amount of walking time at a normal human walking pace. Gary Mack once did a trial (it's on Youtube), and concluded that the fastest route required a minimum of 11 minutes. So, if Tippit, as the combined timeline in my previous post suggests, was indeed killed before 1.10, Oswald would have had to have left the roominghouse at the latest, at around 12:58, which is - if Earlene Roberts is to be believed - impossible as she said Oswald walked in just before the 1 o'clock news came on the television. So, yeah, even if I didn't, I could indeed make that statement. You may not like it, but there it is, nevertheless!

Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus.

Indeed, and that's exactly what my argument is, except she said she normally catched the bus at 1.15. But go from there and everything else in the timeline I provided falls into place. Once we agree that Tippit was most likely killed before 1:10 we can start discussing who could have been there at that time or not!

And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later.

With a minimal walking time of 11 minutes and not leaving the roominghouse until after the 1 o'clock news came on? No, he couldn't!

But that's just my opinion. Why don't you provide your argument that shows that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton at 1.08 or slightly later? Can you do that?

Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene.

At an unfair biased line up and under massive police pressure and media exposure? Any law enforcement officer will tell you that witness testimony is the least reliable type of evidence. And very often witness testimony is proven wrong when it is established that a suspect could not have been at the crime scene at the time of the crime. The circular argument of "Oswald was there because Oswald was there" doesn't fly. It's not a logical fallacy for nothing!

None of the Tippit witnesses have ever been cross-examined under oath. Had they have been, they would IMO have been completely destroyed by a competent defense lawyer. Yet, you are so fair and balanced  ;) that you take their words as gospel. Why is that?

Can't you stand the idea of possibly being wrong? Mark Twain once said; "It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled". Does that perhaps apply to you as well?

You can't say he wasn't there.

I didn't say he wasn't (although I do indeed believe it is likely that he wasn't). I said it's nearly impossible for him to be have been there if Tippit was indeed killed before 1:10.

You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

The timeline I provided in my previous post has actually very little to do with Oswald. It has to do with the most likely time Tippit was actually killed, which you have not addressed at all. All you seem to be concerned with is getting Oswald at the scene on time to be there to do the deed. What's next; are you going to argue he flew there?

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, this is the the classic "I'm right unless you can prove me wrong" LN fallacy again, is it? If you are so sure Oswald did in fact have the time to get from the rooming house to the crime scene, why don't you just shut me up by providing a plausible argument to support your position?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 04:12:01 AM
How about you not misrepresent a one-block distance as being two blocks, cheater...

Says the guy who claimed that Callaway was 12-15 feet away from a guy carrying a gun.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 04, 2019, 05:56:12 AM
At least this freak makes you think


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ted Shields on November 04, 2019, 10:40:08 AM
I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

His Landlady (Mrs Roberts) at 1026 N. Beckley said that she saw Lee standing on the side walk in front of the rooming house at about 1:04.  ( Mrs Roberts said that Lee arrived at 1:00 pm and the WC confirmed that time of arrival. Mrs Roberts said that lee was in his room several minutes and then departed. ( Time about 1:04)  Mrs Markham said that she saw the man who shot Tippit walking east on 10th street a couple of minutes before she witnessed the man shoot Tippit at 1:06.

These are FACTS Mr Hardaker.....  And here's another Fact....

The witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME....

The Smith and Wesson revolver is not unloaded ONE SHELL AT A TIME..... The S&W is unloaded by swinging thw cylinder out of the frame ans unloading all six chambers AT ONCE.....  Tippits killer was NOT using a S&W revolver.    The revolver that allegedly was taken from Lee at the Theater was a Smith & Wesson.....

Deal with reality Mr Hardaker.....

What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 04, 2019, 12:44:15 PM

What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?


Identifying a person you've only seen for seconds isn't as easy as it is sometimes made out to be.
It's not uncommon for witnesses to act in good faith and still misidentify a person placed in front of them.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 04, 2019, 05:27:39 PM
Says the guy who claimed that Callaway was 12-15 feet away from a guy carrying a gun.

BFD, I made an honest mistake: William Scoggins was the guy who saw Oswald up close
Callaway saw him from across the street, ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot

Poor dumb cop
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 06:56:02 PM
BFD, I made an honest mistake

So when you screw up it’s a BFD “honest mistake”, but when I get something wrong, I’m a “cheater” who “misrepresents”.

I think what that makes you is a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 04, 2019, 07:39:40 PM
BFD, I made an honest mistake: William Scoggins was the guy who saw Oswald up close
Callaway saw him from across the street, ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot

Poor dumb cop

Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   And FYI  the question about the ownership of that Jacket has never been resolved.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 04, 2019, 08:59:47 PM
What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?

What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene? All lying?

Don't be silly....  I doubt that any of the witnesses who identified Lee Oswald as the killer were "lying"  .....  Apparently there was a resemblance between the killer and Lee Oswald, so they could easily have been mistaken in there identification.   But the one person who saw the killer face to face (Domingo Benavides)  DID NOT Identify the man as Lee Oswald.   As a matter of FACT.....  Benavides DESCRIBED the killer's hair cut.....  and Lee Oswald did NOT have his hair cut in the fashion described by Benavides.   And what's more....virtually all of the witnesses at the scene described the killer as walking away and unloading his revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME.  A Smith & Wesson revolver is NOT unloaded in the fashion described by the witnesses.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 04, 2019, 09:44:27 PM
So when you screw up it’s a BFD “honest mistake”, but when I get something wrong, I’m a “cheater” who “misrepresents”.

I think what that makes you is a hypocrite.

Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 04, 2019, 10:24:10 PM
Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.

When somebody starts saying stuff like that, it usually means they've lost the argument and know it.

Oh yeah, before you say it; you don't trust me either, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 04, 2019, 10:31:10 PM
What about all the other people who saw him fleeing the scene?
That much alone is a good question because the shooter didn't just vanish. The cops were searching a library or church[?] where a suspect was reported entering but then they were called off for some reason. What ever happened to that guy? There were other observers not mentioned in the police reports who saw a shooter or at least a fleeing suspect. Their descriptions were either not helpful or not wanted.
Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.
This sounds like a personal problem :(
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Ray Mitcham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:13 PM
Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   And FYI  the question about the ownership of that Jacket has never been resolved.

It was yet another "honest mistake by Chapman. He does seem to make an awful lot of them.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 10:36:00 PM
Nobody saw the fleeing killer "ditch his jacket".....  Where do you get this nonsense....   

Another “honest mistake”, no doubt.

Probably.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 04, 2019, 10:38:55 PM
Think what you want. I don't trust you. Period.

Who cares? You can either back up your claims with evidence or you cannot.

How many “honest mistakes” do you get to be caught out on before you are unreliable?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 05, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
Another “honest mistake”, no doubt.

Probably.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 05, 2019, 01:39:40 AM
Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

He had ditched his jacket.

Pray tell, how did Callaway know that?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 05, 2019, 11:25:22 PM
Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

But you claimed that Callaway saw him ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 06, 2019, 04:53:20 AM
But you claimed that Callaway saw him ditching his jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot.

Somebody said Oswald didn't ditch his jacket?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 06, 2019, 08:12:34 AM
Somebody said Oswald didn't ditch his jacket?

For once in your life, man, please try to write something that actually makes sense!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 06, 2019, 12:59:42 PM
So much for being honest.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 06, 2019, 03:21:22 PM
So much for being honest.

Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 06, 2019, 04:33:24 PM
Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

But when exactly did Callaway see somebody ditch a jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot?  It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 06, 2019, 06:35:07 PM
But when exactly did Callaway see somebody ditch a jacket under a car in a gas station parking lot?  It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.

It's ok, Bill, you can admit that you were wrong.

Actually, no he can't. His ego won't let him.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 06, 2019, 09:32:13 PM
Oswald had a jacket on
Then he didn't

Oh, my...

Let's assume that Mrs Robert's was correct when she said that she saw Lee leaving the rooming house and he was donning a jacket as he left.

The next time that we see Lee Oswald ( positive ID)  is when he is dragged from the theater....He has no jacket.   But isn't it logical that he would remove his Jacket in the theater?  It was reported that he moved from seat to seat prior to the start of the movie....  Could he simply have left his jacket in the seat next to his when he changed seats and forgot to take it with him when he changed seats?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Gary Craig on November 06, 2019, 10:58:55 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/darkcomplectedman.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:38:08 PM
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/darkcomplectedman.jpg)

(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)

It certainly could be the same jacket......
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/tanjacket.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 07, 2019, 07:52:03 PM
Let's assume that Mrs Robert's was correct when she said that she saw Lee leaving the rooming house and he was donning a jacket as he left.

The next time that we see Lee Oswald ( positive ID)  is when he is dragged from the theater....He has no jacket.   But isn't it logical that he would remove his Jacket in the theater?  It was reported that he moved from seat to seat prior to the start of the movie....  Could he simply have left his jacket in the seat next to his when he changed seats and forgot to take it with him when he changed seats?

Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 07, 2019, 11:51:33 PM
Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....

Brewer was talking about when he saw the funny-looking guy at the store
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 09, 2019, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:05:14 PM 
Quote
Brewer and Burroughs went through the theater looking for the man that Brewer thought had ducked into the theater...When Brewer met Julia Postal outside he told her they hadn't seen the man in the theater...."He just wasn't there"        But Lee Oswald was there.....and Brewer had to have seen him.....
Brewer was talking about when he saw the funny-looking guy at the store
 « Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:18:03 PM by Bill Chapman »
Huh?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Walt Cakebread on November 07, 2019, 02:05:14 PM   Huh?

Huh??    What the hell is Chappie talking about??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 05:10:12 PM
Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

(...)
Mr. BELIN - Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER - He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN - Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER - A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Psssst Chappie.....You're ass- u- me  ing that the man that Johnny Jump Up, saw was Lee Oswald.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 10, 2019, 10:12:06 PM
Psssst Chappie.....You're ass- u- me  ing that the man that Johnny Jump Up, saw was Lee Oswald.....

An assumption?  LOL   You're cute.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 10, 2019, 11:55:56 PM
An assumption?  LOL   You're cute.

Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

I'd accept your statement IF Brewer KNEW  Lee Oswald......  So do you have any information that Brewer knew and recognized Lee Oswald??
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 11, 2019, 01:22:05 AM
Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

I'd accept your statement IF Brewer KNEW  Lee Oswald......  So do you have any information that Brewer knew and recognized Lee Oswald??

Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 01:47:12 AM
Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.

Yes.... And Helen Markham said that Lee was the man that she saw shoot Tippit, and she knew that because when she saw him in a line up with three other men who couldn't possibly  pass for 23 years old, she felt cold chills run all over her.... Soooo ...How did Brewer KNOW that Lee Oswald was the man?....He'd been through the theater twice looking for the man and he had to have seen Lee Oswald ...but when he reported back to Julia Postal he told her after looking for the man " he just wasn't there"...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 11, 2019, 03:00:24 AM
Yes....Unless you can PROVE that Brewer saw Lee Oswald enter the theater....You're simply assuming.....

Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 11, 2019, 07:58:53 AM
Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

John,

Should Brewer have said, "I watched him walk into the recessed area in front of the theater where he disappeared from my view. When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
John,

Should Brewer have said, "I watched him walk into the recessed area in front of the theater where he disappeared from my view. When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?

--  MWT  ;)

When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 02:51:24 PM
Tell us why the shoe salesman would have to know the name of the funny-looking guy he saw in his store window--and followed to TT--at that point. Brewer himself testified that the guy was the one he saw at his store.

When??  When?? I say WHEN....Did Brewer first identify  Lee Oswald as the man that he said was window shopping at his Shoe store?

Brewer went through the theater( twice)  searching for the man and he then told Julia Postal that man was not in the theater. .....  Brewer couldn't have missed seeing Lee Oswald when he searched the theater and yet he told Postal that the man who had ducked into the theater foyer was NOT in the theater.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 11, 2019, 04:05:03 PM
When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....

Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 04:39:33 PM
Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

Brewer didn’t even claim that he saw someone enter the theater.

True....  in 1996 Brewer told Ian Griggs that after the man who was window shopping at his shoe store left his foyer he ( Brewer) stepped out onto the sidewalk to see where the man was going. Brewer said that he saw the man enter the foyer of the theater and then he went back inside his store to lock up.   A couple of minutes later he asked "Julie" if she had sold the man a ticket....and she replied"what man?"   She had been distracted by the police cars and never even noticed a man in the foyer.   And Furthermore Butch Burroughs said that nobody had entered the theater during the few minutes prior to Brewer bursting into the lobby acting like Dick Tracy....

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 04:45:25 PM
Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.

Brewer told Ian Griggs that he returned to the shoe store and his IBM friends had locked up the store....   ( I don't believe it....He had been gone from the store for only a couple of minutes, and his pals locked up the store??   Did they have the keys to the store??   )  I've read somewhere that Brewer said that he returned to the store and put up a "closed" sign and locked the store......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 11, 2019, 05:09:45 PM
Exactly. Although I don’t think he locked the shoe store. He left it in the good hands of his “IBM men” who hung out there.

One of the most incredible parts of Brewer's tale concerns the size of Lee Oswald....  Brewer described him as a "little guy" of about 5' 9" and 150 pounds ...And Brewer told ian Griggs that had known officer Nick Mc Donald for about six months, and Mc Donald "was no little Guy"  ....( we all seen photos of Mc Donald so we know that he was at least 4 inches taller than Lee Oswald, and outweighed him by at least a hundred pounds ...And yet Brewer tells us that the scrawny little guy provoked a fight with the not so jolly giant, by punching at him when Mc Donald confronted Lee in the theater.   Watta whopper!....  Brewer himself said that Lee was telling everybody in the theater that he was not resisting arrest....   If Lee had punched at McDonald that most certainly would have constituted "resisting arrest"... and Lee would probably been unconscious and unable to protest that he wasn't resisting arrest....  This bit a pugilism is nothing but a figment of Brewer's imagination..... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 11, 2019, 08:21:25 PM
When I got there a few seconds later, he wasn't there, so I assumed he'd gone inside"?


Brewer didn't go immediately to the theater.....He went back inside his shoe store and told some associates that he was going to the theater and was going to lock the shoe store.....  For all Brewer knew the man could have left the foyer of the theater and never actually entered the theater.... Recall that Butch Burroughs said that nobody came into the theater ......Burroughs was right there and he saw nobody enter....

Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 03:18:09 AM
And Brewer told ian Griggs that had known officer Nick Mc Donald for about six months,

So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 12, 2019, 04:06:36 AM
So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

John,

Yes !!!

They probably spoke with each other to make sure they were "on the same page" !!!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 02:42:30 PM
Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)

Yes.... They have made a point to make it appear that Burroughs was busy behind the concession counter and didn't notice the man sneak by him...  BULL STUFF!

The "scared man" of Brewer's account never entered the theater....    And as I recall Burroughs said that he sold Lee Oswald a bag of popcorn about the time the movie was starting...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 05:32:20 PM
So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

Yes indeed....Can you imagine the scrawny 131 pound Lee Oswald hitting the 250 pound police officer, Nick Mc Donald and knocking him back?

What utter nonsense....  But that's what Brewer said happened...  But ....Keep in mind that Johnny  Brewer also said that he had heard about the shooting of a police officer on the radio before 1:30pm....     So his words should be taken with at least a pinch of salt....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 05:55:41 PM
Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

No.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:15:15 PM
So it’s not at all surprising that Brewer would back up his buddy McDonald’s story. Quite possibly they discussed what happened in the theater in the intervening months.

 ::)

Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN - You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN - Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Walter,

Going from memory, here, but didn't Butch say he was kneeling down, attending to the inventory under the counter for a couple of minutes, and that he may have missed someone sneaking in so late?

--  MWT  ;)

Mr. Ball.
Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs.
Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
Ian Griggs - So they grab you, put a gun on you and what did you do?  You tell them what?
Johnny Brewer - Basically, that I'm on your side.  The person that you're here for is out there.  I knew Officer McDonald.  I'd known him for several months.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 12, 2019, 07:23:25 PM
Mr. Ball.
Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. Burroughs.
Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

"I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him"

If Oswald had "sneaked up the stairs real fast", he would have been in the balcony.  Right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:31:09 PM
Yes.... And Helen Markham said that Lee was the man that she saw shoot Tippit, and she knew that because when she saw him in a line up with three other men who couldn't possibly  pass for 23 years old, she felt cold chills run all over her.... Soooo ...How did Brewer KNOW that Lee Oswald was the man?....He'd been through the theater twice looking for the man and he had to have seen Lee Oswald ...but when he reported back to Julia Postal he told her after looking for the man " he just wasn't there"...

Again: Why would he have to know the guy's name?
He was looking to ID the guy he saw at the store.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 07:46:22 PM
::)

Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN - You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN - Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.

Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Chap, Are you so naive that you actually believe this?    Question....  IF you actually believe LHO had actually punched Mc Donald....   Perhaps you can think of a reason that Lee would have wanted to commit suicide by cop.....  But I'd remind you that at the same time that Lee was allegedly punching a 250 pound police officer he was declaring that he was NOT RESISTING ARREST.    Do you see any conflict here?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
"I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him"

If Oswald had "sneaked up the stairs real fast", he would have been in the balcony.  Right?

Burroughs didn't see the guy

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 12, 2019, 07:56:37 PM
Burroughs didn't see the guy

Burroughs didn't see the guy

That's correct.... And the reason Burroughs didn't see the guy was because the "scared man" did not enter the theater.....Brewer saw him enter the theater foyer and then he went back to the shoe store....

But Burroughs said that he had sold Lee a bag of popcorn at about the time the movie started which would have been about 15 or 20 minutes before Brewer saw the scared man enter the foyer.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 11:12:15 PM
Yes.... They have made a point to make it appear that Burroughs was busy behind the concession counter and didn't notice the man sneak by him...  BULL STUFF!

The "scared man" of Brewer's account never entered the theater....    And as I recall Burroughs said that he sold Lee Oswald a bag of popcorn about the time the movie was starting...

From memory, Burroughs didn't say anything about selling the guy any popcorn in his testimony
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 12, 2019, 11:32:03 PM
Ian Griggs - So they grab you, put a gun on you and what did you do?  You tell them what?
Johnny Brewer - Basically, that I'm on your side.  The person that you're here for is out there.  I knew Officer McDonald.  I'd known him for several months.

Mr. Brewer: I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me..

Where did they 'put a gun' on Brewer..

I'll go with what Brewer said under oath 3-4 months after the fact rather than decades later



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 12, 2019, 11:56:36 PM
Timeline
======
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:50 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Not only did the DPD solve the case in 1.25 hrs, but they apprehended LHO only 34 mins after he shot Tippit. But the most impressive feat was how LHO shoots Tippit, flees the scene and suddenly a cop shows up, checks on Tippit to confirm that he is dead, interviews a witness for the suspect's description, gets on the horn and broadcasts the description to the rest of the force...wait for it...all in 6 minutes!!!

Damn, those DPD must have been supercops!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 13, 2019, 12:08:53 AM
Timeline
======
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:50 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Not only did the DPD solve the case in 1.25 hrs, but they apprehended LHO only 34 mins after he shot Tippit. But the most impressive feat was how LHO shoots Tippit, flees the scene and suddenly a cop shows up, checks on Tippit to confirm that he is dead, interviews a witness for the suspect's description, gets on the horn and broadcasts the description to the rest of the force...wait for it...all in 6 minutes!!!

Damn, those DPD must have been supercops!

1st off....   Tippit was shot at 1:06....NOT 1:16.....

2nd.... The description of Tippit's killer did NOT fit Lee Oswald well enough to select him from about 1000 other young men in Dallas....

3rd....Lee DID NOT enter the theater at about 1:40..... He was already in the theater when the movie started..... Burroughs sold him a bag of popcorn when the movie was just starting (about 1:15 )
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 13, 2019, 12:28:29 AM
Perhaps you can think of a reason that Lee would have wanted to commit suicide by cop..... 

"My fondest dreams are shattered because of a petty official; because of bad planning. I planned too much! 7.00 P.M. I decide to end it. Soak wrist in cold water to numb the pain. Then slash my left wrist. Then plug wrist into bathtub of hot water. I think "when Rima comes at 8 to find me dead, it will be a great shock." Somewhere, a violin plays, as I watch my life whirl away. I think to myself, "how easy to die" and a sweet death, (to violins)."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxh7XgRp/Oswald-walker-note-11.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 13, 2019, 12:30:58 AM
1st off....   Tippit was shot at 1:06....NOT 1:16.....

2nd.... The description of Tippit's killer did NOT fit Lee Oswald well enough to select him from about 1000 other young men in Dallas....

3rd....Lee DID NOT enter the theater at about 1:40..... He was already in the theater when the movie started..... Burroughs sold him a bag of popcorn when the movie was just starting (about 1:15 )

For the record, would you pls repost my timeline with your numbers?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 13, 2019, 05:15:38 PM
For the record, would you pls repost my timeline with your numbers?

1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.


Using this timeline.....If Lee Oswald had been the man who murdered JD Tippit.....  It took him 12 minutes to travel more than a mile from the rooming house past the Tippit murder site and double back and then shoot Tippit after talking through the car window for a couple of minutes.   ( A period of time when he would have had no reason to be dashing down the streets)

But AFTER the shooting ( a period when he would want to put as much distance between himself and the murder site as possible ) It took him 24 minutes to travel less than half the distance that had taken him 12 minutes to travel......

I think you need to rethink  the scenario.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 14, 2019, 04:22:51 PM
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.


Using this timeline.....If Lee Oswald had been the man who murdered JD Tippit.....  It took him 12 minutes to travel more than a mile from the rooming house past the Tippit murder site and double back and then shoot Tippit after talking through the car window for a couple of minutes.   ( A period of time when he would have had no reason to be dashing down the streets)

But AFTER the shooting ( a period when he would want to put as much distance between himself and the murder site as possible ) It took him 24 minutes to travel less than half the distance that had taken him 12 minutes to travel......

I think you need to rethink  the scenario.....

False premise and very silly.  You have no idea what Oswald was doing between the time he shot Tippit and entered the TT or what route he took to get there.  Maybe he ducked into a someplace and hid for a few minutes.  Who knows?  Certainly not you.
Again, what is the point of this endless nitpicking?   Witnesses put Oswald at his boarding house, the Tippit scene, and the Texas Theatre.    There is no doubt that he was at each of these places which is conclusive that he had sufficient time to reach them. 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 14, 2019, 04:32:45 PM
Coercing witnesses with unfair and biased lineups is not the same thing as "no doubt".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 14, 2019, 05:15:47 PM
False premise and very silly.  You have no idea what Oswald was doing between the time he shot Tippit and entered the TT or what route he took to get there.  Maybe he ducked into a someplace and hid for a few minutes.  Who knows?  Certainly not you.
Again, what is the point of this endless nitpicking?   Witnesses put Oswald at his boarding house, the Tippit scene, and the Texas Theatre.    There is no doubt that he was at each of these places which is conclusive that he had sufficient time to reach them.

There is no doubt that he was at each of these places which is conclusive that he had sufficient time to reach them.

ROTFLMAO!....  If there is no doubt ..... Then how do you explain the debate.  You are not very bright are you Mr "Smith"?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Joe Mannix on November 14, 2019, 05:26:14 PM
From Dale Myers:

A third eyewitness, Mrs. Donald R. Higgins, also claimed – albeit belatedly – that the Tippit shooting occurred earlier than thought by officials.

In 1963, Donald and Margie Higgins managed several rented apartments in a home at 417 E. Tenth – 150 feet east of and across the street from the shooting scene.

In 1968, five years after the shooting, Mrs. Higgins told an independent researcher that she was watching television when she heard shots. She jumped up, ran to the front door, and saw a police officer lying in the street and a man with a pistol running away from her toward Patton Street.

Asked how she could be so certain of the time, Mrs. Higgins said, “Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was ‘six minutes after one.’ He said it just like that, ‘six minutes after one.’ And you know how you always do, you hear the time and you automatically check your own watch. So, I just looked up at the clock on my television to verify the time and it said 1:06. At that point I heard the shots.”

When Margie Higgins first told this story, there was no easy way to check her claim against archival video tapes of the three networks that were broadcasting that day. Remember, this was long before the days of cable television and streaming video services, with hundreds of channels available. In 1963, you had three choices, and fortunately all three were recording what they were broadcasting for posterity.

Myers: I checked those archival tapes in 2013 and the results don’t favor Mrs. Higgins. As it turns out, none of the three networks broadcasting that afternoon in Dallas gave a time check at 1:06 p.m. as she claimed:

•   Jay Watson, program director at the local ABC affiliate, WFAA-TV, did look off camera (presumably at a clock) and make a similar statement at 1:03 p.m.
•   Two networks – ABC and CBS – gave a time check at about 1:15 p.m. (the official time of the Tippit shooting), although the phrasing they used was different from Mrs. Higgins’ recollection.

Here you go Dale, you're welcome:

WBAP - Listen – 3:10:18


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 14, 2019, 05:44:30 PM
From Dale Myers:

A third eyewitness, Mrs. Donald R. Higgins, also claimed – albeit belatedly – that the Tippit shooting occurred earlier than thought by officials.

In 1963, Donald and Margie Higgins managed several rented apartments in a home at 417 E. Tenth – 150 feet east of and across the street from the shooting scene.

In 1968, five years after the shooting, Mrs. Higgins told an independent researcher that she was watching television when she heard shots. She jumped up, ran to the front door, and saw a police officer lying in the street and a man with a pistol running away from her toward Patton Street.

Asked how she could be so certain of the time, Mrs. Higgins said, “Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was ‘six minutes after one.’ He said it just like that, ‘six minutes after one.’ And you know how you always do, you hear the time and you automatically check your own watch. So, I just looked up at the clock on my television to verify the time and it said 1:06. At that point I heard the shots.”

When Margie Higgins first told this story, there was no easy way to check her claim against archival video tapes of the three networks that were broadcasting that day. Remember, this was long before the days of cable television and streaming video services, with hundreds of channels available. In 1963, you had three choices, and fortunately all three were recording what they were broadcasting for posterity.

Myers: I checked those archival tapes in 2013 and the results don’t favor Mrs. Higgins. As it turns out, none of the three networks broadcasting that afternoon in Dallas gave a time check at 1:06 p.m. as she claimed:

•   Jay Watson, program director at the local ABC affiliate, WFAA-TV, did look off camera (presumably at a clock) and make a similar statement at 1:03 p.m.
•   Two networks – ABC and CBS – gave a time check at about 1:15 p.m. (the official time of the Tippit shooting), although the phrasing they used was different from Mrs. Higgins’ recollection.

Here you go Dale, you're welcome:

WBAP - Listen – 3:10:18


Umm, Higgins said that she was watching the television, not listening to the radio....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 14, 2019, 06:10:54 PM
1:16 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:22 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:40 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.


Using this timeline.....If Lee Oswald had been the man who murdered JD Tippit.....  It took him 12 minutes to travel more than a mile from the rooming house past the Tippit murder site and double back and then shoot Tippit after talking through the car window for a couple of minutes.   ( A period of time when he would have had no reason to be dashing down the streets)

But AFTER the shooting ( a period when he would want to put as much distance between himself and the murder site as possible ) It took him 24 minutes to travel less than half the distance that had taken him 12 minutes to travel......

I think you need to rethink  the scenario.....

Why did you repost MY numbers when I asked you to put in YOUR numbers so I could rethink the scenari? Since you couldn't/wouldn't/didn't let me help you out and back the time up 10 mins:

Walt's Timeline
==========
1:06 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:12 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:30 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:40 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Which doesn't change my scenario one iota.

Quote from: Jack Trojan
Not only did the DPD solve the case in 1.25 hrs, but they apprehended LHO only 34 mins after he shot Tippit. But the most impressive feat was how LHO shoots Tippit, flees the scene and suddenly a cop shows up, checks on Tippit to confirm that he is dead, interviews a witness for the suspect's description, gets on the horn and broadcasts the description to the rest of the force...wait for it...all in 6 minutes!!!

Damn, those DPD must have been supercops!

I'm not a mind reader. Either post YOUR timeline or accept that my scenario is the same with your numbers. Make sure to cite your source(s).

ETA: The 1 difference being that the DPD solved the case in just over an hour. That's impressive, especially for Kestone Cops!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 14, 2019, 06:13:27 PM
It's possible that she was actually listening to the radio and just recalled incorrectly that it was the television.  It's also possible that she remembered the time-check time incorrectly though.  But Higgins, Markham, Bowley, and Methodist Hospital all corroborate an earlier time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Joe Mannix on November 14, 2019, 06:26:07 PM
Ummmm, WBAP had radio and TV coverage.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 14, 2019, 06:27:50 PM
It's possible that she was actually listening to the radio and just recalled incorrectly that it was the television.  It's also possible that she remembered the time-check time incorrectly though.  But Higgins, Markham, Bowley, and Methodist Hospital all corroborate an earlier time.

So... if she was listening to the radio, how did she recall that:

“for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock”

She must have had ESP! 🧐
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Joe Mannix on November 14, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
It's possible that she was actually listening to the radio and just recalled incorrectly that it was the television.  It's also possible that she remembered the time-check time incorrectly though.  But Higgins, Markham, Bowley, and Methodist Hospital all corroborate an earlier time.

Bowley is most convincing in my opinion. He was picking up his wife from work and then going on vacation. Plenty of reason to pay attention to the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 14, 2019, 07:32:20 PM
Ummmm, WBAP had radio and TV coverage.

Umm, two different formats which typically requires two different announcers.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 14, 2019, 08:21:37 PM
Why did you repost MY numbers when I asked you to put in YOUR numbers so I could rethink the scenari? Since you couldn't/wouldn't/didn't let me help you out and back the time up 10 mins:

Walt's Timeline
==========
1:06 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:12 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:30 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:40 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Which doesn't change my scenario one iota.

I'm not a mind reader. Either post YOUR timeline or accept that my scenario is the same with your numbers. Make sure to cite your source(s).

ETA: The 1 difference being that the DPD solved the case in just over an hour. That's impressive, especially for Kestone Cops!

Walt's Timeline  Jack's BS time line.....
==========
1:06 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:12 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:30 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:40 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Here's my Time line.....

1:04PM:  Mrs Roberts sees Lee standing on the sidewalk in front of the roominghouse.
1:06PM Mrs Markham sees Tippit shot by an assailant who had his hair cut in an entirely different fashion than Lee Oswald. 
1:08PM Several witnesses saw the killer walking away from the scene while removing ONE SHELL AT A TIME from the revolver.  ( thus the killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson.)
1:10   TF Bowley arrives at the scene of the murder and sees the cop lying on the street.   Bowley uses Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
1:12PM Lee disembarks from the bus and walks the short distance to the Texas Theater where he enters the theater at about 1;13....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Joe Mannix on November 14, 2019, 09:54:52 PM
Umm, two different formats which typically requires two different announcers.

Umm, maybe she heard radio. The 1:06 is pretty precise. Not 1:05. Not 1:07.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 14, 2019, 10:23:16 PM
Walt's Timeline  Jack's BS time line.....
==========
1:06 PM: LHO shoots Officer J.D. Tippit and continues fleeing.
1:12 PM: Police broadcast a description of the suspect in the Tippit murder.
1:30 PM: LHO enters the Texas Theater.
1:40 PM: After a struggle with police, LHO is captured.

Here's my Time line.....

1:04PM:  Mrs Roberts sees Lee standing on the sidewalk in front of the roominghouse.
1:06PM Mrs Markham sees Tippit shot by an assailant who had his hair cut in an entirely different fashion than Lee Oswald. 
1:08PM Several witnesses saw the killer walking away from the scene while removing ONE SHELL AT A TIME from the revolver.  ( thus the killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson.)
1:10   TF Bowley arrives at the scene of the murder and sees the cop lying on the street.   Bowley uses Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
1:12PM Lee disembarks from the bus and walks the short distance to the Texas Theater where he enters the theater at about 1;13....

Stop calling it my BS timeline you fool. In my original post I was citing the LNers timeline and testing its implications. I never claimed it was correct, I was attempting to debunk it. Comprende?

I just wanted you to modify the times relative to the events I described so we can all be on the same page. Instead you replaced them with your own 8 minute timeline, which you still haven't cited your source(s) for. The most important thing anyone can do here is to establish a timeline by forming a consensus re the time of events from the moment the 1st bullet struck JFK (12:33PM) to LHO's arrest in the theater (1:30PM?). Once we agree on that, then you can call BS all you like....without being obstinate, if possible.

Nevermind. I lost my appetite.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 14, 2019, 10:36:06 PM
Umm, maybe she heard radio. The 1:06 is pretty precise. Not 1:05. Not 1:07.

So... if she was listening to the radio, how did she recall that:

“for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock”

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Joe Mannix on November 14, 2019, 10:52:22 PM
So... if she was listening to the radio, how did she recall that:

“for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock”

Because Oswald acted alone?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 12:05:49 AM
Stop calling it my BS timeline you fool. In my original post I was citing the LNers timeline and testing its implications. I never claimed it was correct, I was attempting to debunk it. Comprende?

I just wanted you to modify the times relative to the events I described so we can all be on the same page. Instead you replaced them with your own 8 minute timeline, which you still haven't cited your source(s) for. The most important thing anyone can do here is to establish a timeline by forming a consensus re the time of events from the moment the 1st bullet struck JFK (12:33PM) to LHO's arrest in the theater (1:30PM?). Once we agree on that, then you can call BS all you like....without being obstinate, if possible.

Nevermind. I lost my appetite.

I would NEVER endorse the very first entry....1:06 PM: LHO shoots officer JD Tippit ....       Lee DID NOT shoot Officer Tippit.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 15, 2019, 12:13:11 AM
I would NEVER endorse the very first entry....1:06 PM: LHO shoots officer JD Tippit ....       Lee DID NOT shoot Officer Tippit.....

You were NOT THERE...so you do not know who did or didn't shoot Officer Tippit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 12:22:39 AM
You were NOT THERE...so you do not know who did or didn't shoot Officer Tippit.

Lee was seen by his landlady, Mrs Roberts, STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK in front of the roominghouse at 1:04 PM.....  Mrs Markham swore that she saw oficer Tippit shot at 1:06.....

Now all you have to do is show me how Lee could have traveled from the rooming house  to the murder scene that was over a mile away in less than two minutes.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 15, 2019, 12:32:47 AM
Here's my timeline: Oswald leaves rooming house shortly after 1.00pm
Mrs.Markham sees Oswald shoot officer Tippit at approx 1.09PM...(she doesn't know exact time) positively identified by Markham and 4 other witnesses.
Oswald flees the scene...spotted and identified by several witnesses
TF Bowley arrives at approx 1.10/1.11...assesses situation as best he could and then uses Officer Tippit radio to call in.

The big problem with this scenario appears to be the time it takes to get from the rooming house to the scene of the Tippit murder. Another problem is nobody involved in this episode seems to be clear on the timing. But the fact remains that Oswald was identified as the gunman. Some of the I'd's are a bit sketchy but others are much more believable.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 15, 2019, 12:36:55 AM
Lee was seen by his landlady, Mrs Roberts, STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK in front of the roominghouse at 1:04 PM.....  Mrs Markham swore that she saw oficer Tippit shot at 1:06.....

Now all you have to do is show me how Lee could have traveled from the rooming house  to the murder scene that was over a mile away in less than two minutes.....

Well you have to show me proof that Mrs.Roberts was exact with her timing and also how Mrs.Markham was exact with her timing and also show corroboration of both claims.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 12:57:40 AM
Well you have to show me proof that Mrs.Roberts was exact with her timing and also how Mrs.Markham was exact with her timing and also show corroboration of both claims.

Mrs Roberts said that Lee arrived at 1:00PM  ( this time was confirmed by the WC.)    She said that Lee was in his room for a few minutes and then left...She last saw him standing on the sidewalk in front of the rooming house ..... A few minutes .... 3 or 4 minutes is entirely reasonable because he changed his clothes.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 15, 2019, 05:40:04 AM
Some people act like an identification in a biased, unfair lineup is some unassailable truth.

Why do you think Henry Wade had at least 19 of his convictions overturned?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 15, 2019, 11:04:30 AM
Here's my timeline: Oswald leaves rooming house shortly after 1.00pm
Mrs.Markham sees Oswald shoot officer Tippit at approx 1.09PM...(she doesn't know exact time) positively identified by Markham and 4 other witnesses.
Oswald flees the scene...spotted and identified by several witnesses
TF Bowley arrives at approx 1.10/1.11...assesses situation as best he could and then uses Officer Tippit radio to call in.

The big problem with this scenario appears to be the time it takes to get from the rooming house to the scene of the Tippit murder. Another problem is nobody involved in this episode seems to be clear on the timing. But the fact remains that Oswald was identified as the gunman. Some of the I'd's are a bit sketchy but others are much more believable.

The big problem with this scenario appears to be the time it takes to get from the rooming house to the scene of the Tippit murder.

Indeed. Gary Mack did a time trial once and found that it would take a minimum of 11 minutes to walk the fastest route. So, even if Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:09, it would mean that Oswald must have been there at least two minutes earlier, as he was seen walking, being stopped by Tippit and talking to him through the passenger window prior to the shooting. If we accept that Earlene Roberts said that Oswald walked into the roominghouse as she was switching the television on to watch the 1 o'clock news and if we assume that he left again two minutes later, we end up with a timeframe of 1:02 to 1:07 for Oswald to walk the distance between the roominghouse and 10th/Patton, which is a physical impossibility.

Another problem is nobody involved in this episode seems to be clear on the timing.

That's not completely true. Earlene Roberts saw Oswald walk in just prior to the 1:00 news. Markham said she left home just after 1 pm, to catch her regular bus, and it could have been 1:06 or 1:07 when she got to the location of the shooting. Bowley said he arrived at 1:10, at which time Tippit had already been shot. The combined evidence of Markham and Bowley, as well as Tippit being declared DOA at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, witnessed and confirmed by Detective Davenport, gives a fair and good indication of the actual time line. The mere fact that other witnesses made assumptions about the time doesn't alter that fact.

You may not realize it but you actually provided confirmation of the timing in your own post.

Bowley arrived after Tippit had been shot. He looked at his watch and it said 1:10. By the time he got there Benavides was already trying to get the police radio to work and the killer had left the scene. We know from Benavides that he did not get out of his truck until the killer had disappeared behind the house on the corner of 10th and Patton. So, working backwards from Bowley's arrival time, Tippit must have been shot at least two minutes earlier, which computes exactly with what Markham said in her testimony.

But the fact remains that Oswald was identified as the gunman. Some of the I'd's are a bit sketchy but others are much more believable.

Witnesses can be wrong and often are. In fact, witness testimony is the least reliable kind of evidence. Witnesses can be manipulated or unduly influenced. A police investigation is - or should be - all about the elimination of suspects and if it can be established that a particular individual couldn't have been at the crime scene at the time of the murder, that person is eliminated as a suspect.

The argument that even if he didn't have the time to get there, Oswald was there anyway because witnesses said so is simply not sound.

Btw, on November 3rd I replied to your post and since you seem to have ignored that, here is my post again;


You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at. Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe. Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus. And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later. Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene. You can't say he wasn't there. You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene. And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, all you are really interested in is keeping Oswald inside the timeframe, regardless of facts or reason?

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

True, but I think I can safely say that it wasn't at super sonic speed or the speed of sound, just in case you ever want to go there.

Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe.

Get your fact straight. I did not say that Oswald couldn't be there. I actually said; "which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there". There is a difference!

But I'll answer your misguided comment anyway, with some facts (you know what they are, right?). The actual distance between the two locations requires a certain minimal amount of walking time at a normal human walking pace. Gary Mack once did a trial (it's on Youtube), and concluded that the fastest route required a minimum of 11 minutes. So, if Tippit, as the combined timeline in my previous post suggests, was indeed killed before 1.10, Oswald would have had to have left the roominghouse at the latest, at around 12:58, which is - if Earlene Roberts is to be believed - impossible as she said Oswald walked in just before the 1 o'clock news came on the television. So, yeah, even if I didn't, I could indeed make that statement. You may not like it, but there it is, nevertheless!

Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus.

Indeed, and that's exactly what my argument is, except she said she normally catched the bus at 1.15. But go from there and everything else in the timeline I provided falls into place. Once we agree that Tippit was most likely killed before 1:10 we can start discussing who could have been there at that time or not!

And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later.

With a minimal walking time of 11 minutes and not leaving the roominghouse until after the 1 o'clock news came on? No, he couldn't!

But that's just my opinion. Why don't you provide your argument that shows that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton at 1.08 or slightly later? Can you do that?

Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene.

At an unfair biased line up and under massive police pressure and media exposure? Any law enforcement officer will tell you that witness testimony is the least reliable type of evidence. And very often witness testimony is proven wrong when it is established that a suspect could not have been at the crime scene at the time of the crime. The circular argument of "Oswald was there because Oswald was there" doesn't fly. It's not a logical fallacy for nothing!

None of the Tippit witnesses have ever been cross-examined under oath. Had they have been, they would IMO have been completely destroyed by a competent defense lawyer. Yet, you are so fair and balanced  ;) that you take their words as gospel. Why is that?

Can't you stand the idea of possibly being wrong? Mark Twain once said; "It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled". Does that perhaps apply to you as well?

You can't say he wasn't there.

I didn't say he wasn't (although I do indeed believe it is likely that he wasn't). I said it's nearly impossible for him to be have been there if Tippit was indeed killed before 1:10.

You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

The timeline I provided in my previous post has actually very little to do with Oswald. It has to do with the most likely time Tippit was actually killed, which you have not addressed at all. All you seem to be concerned with is getting Oswald at the scene on time to be there to do the deed. What's next; are you going to argue he flew there?

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, this is the the classic "I'm right unless you can prove me wrong" LN fallacy again, is it? If you are so sure Oswald did in fact have the time to get from the rooming house to the crime scene, why don't you just shut me up by providing a plausible argument to support your position?
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 03:03:12 PM
The big problem with this scenario appears to be the time it takes to get from the rooming house to the scene of the Tippit murder.

Indeed. Gary Mack did a time trial once and found that it would take a minimum of 11 minutes to walk the fastest route. So, even if Markham saw Tippit being killed at 1:09, it would mean that Oswald must have been there at least two minutes earlier, as he was seen walking, being stopped by Tippit and talking to him through the passenger window prior to the shooting. If we accept that Earlene Roberts said that Oswald walked into the roominghouse as she was switching the television on to watch the 1 o'clock news and if we assume that he left again two minutes later, we end up with a timeframe of 1:02 to 1:07 for Oswald to walk the distance between the roominghouse and 10th/Patton, which is a physical impossibility.

Another problem is nobody involved in this episode seems to be clear on the timing.

That's not completely true. Earlene Roberts saw Oswald walk in just prior to the 1:00 news. Markham said she left home just after 1 pm, to catch her regular bus, and it could have been 1:06 or 1:07 when she got to the location of the shooting. Bowley said he arrived at 1:10, at which time Tippit had already been shot. The combined evidence of Markham and Bowley, as well as Tippit being declared DOA at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, witnessed and confirmed by Detective Davenport, gives a fair and good indication of the actual time line. The mere fact that other witnesses made assumptions about the time doesn't alter that fact.

You may not realize it but you actually provided confirmation of the timing in your own post.

Bowley arrived after Tippit had been shot. He looked at his watch and it said 1:10. By the time he got there Benavides was already trying to get the police radio to work and the killer had left the scene. We know from Benavides that he did not get out of his truck until the killer had disappeared behind the house on the corner of 10th and Patton. So, working backwards from Bowley's arrival time, Tippit must have been shot at least two minutes earlier, which computes exactly with what Markham said in her testimony.

But the fact remains that Oswald was identified as the gunman. Some of the I'd's are a bit sketchy but others are much more believable.

Witnesses can be wrong and often are. In fact, witness testimony is the least reliable kind of evidence. Witnesses can be manipulated or unduly influenced. A police investigation is - or should be - all about the elimination of suspects and if it can be established that a particular individual couldn't have been at the crime scene at the time of the murder, that person is eliminated as a suspect.

The argument that even if he didn't have the time to get there, Oswald was there anyway because witnesses said so is simply not sound.

Btw, on November 3rd I replied to your post and since you seem to have ignored that, here is my post again;

So, all you are really interested in is keeping Oswald inside the timeframe, regardless of facts or reason?

You do not know the exact time that Oswald starts his journey.You do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

True, but I think I can safely say that it wasn't at super sonic speed or the speed of sound, just in case you ever want to go there.

Therefore you cannot make any statements that in any way say Oswald couldn't be at the crime scene in the timeframe.

Get your fact straight. I did not say that Oswald couldn't be there. I actually said; "which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there". There is a difference!

But I'll answer your misguided comment anyway, with some facts (you know what they are, right?). The actual distance between the two locations requires a certain minimal amount of walking time at a normal human walking pace. Gary Mack once did a trial (it's on Youtube), and concluded that the fastest route required a minimum of 11 minutes. So, if Tippit, as the combined timeline in my previous post suggests, was indeed killed before 1.10, Oswald would have had to have left the roominghouse at the latest, at around 12:58, which is - if Earlene Roberts is to be believed - impossible as she said Oswald walked in just before the 1 o'clock news came on the television. So, yeah, even if I didn't, I could indeed make that statement. You may not like it, but there it is, nevertheless!

Markham could be at her position at about 1-06  to catch the 1.12 bus.

Indeed, and that's exactly what my argument is, except she said she normally catched the bus at 1.15. But go from there and everything else in the timeline I provided falls into place. Once we agree that Tippit was most likely killed before 1:10 we can start discussing who could have been there at that time or not!

And Oswald could've been at the crime scene at 1-08 or slightly later.

With a minimal walking time of 11 minutes and not leaving the roominghouse until after the 1 o'clock news came on? No, he couldn't!

But that's just my opinion. Why don't you provide your argument that shows that Oswald could have been at 10th/Patton at 1.08 or slightly later? Can you do that?

Numerous witnesses I'd Oswald as being at the scene.

At an unfair biased line up and under massive police pressure and media exposure? Any law enforcement officer will tell you that witness testimony is the least reliable type of evidence. And very often witness testimony is proven wrong when it is established that a suspect could not have been at the crime scene at the time of the crime. The circular argument of "Oswald was there because Oswald was there" doesn't fly. It's not a logical fallacy for nothing!

None of the Tippit witnesses have ever been cross-examined under oath. Had they have been, they would IMO have been completely destroyed by a competent defense lawyer. Yet, you are so fair and balanced  ;) that you take their words as gospel. Why is that?

Can't you stand the idea of possibly being wrong? Mark Twain once said; "It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled". Does that perhaps apply to you as well?

You can't say he wasn't there.

I didn't say he wasn't (although I do indeed believe it is likely that he wasn't). I said it's nearly impossible for him to be have been there if Tippit was indeed killed before 1:10.

You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

And how can I discuss the timeline as you do not know at what speed Oswald was travelling at.

The timeline I provided in my previous post has actually very little to do with Oswald. It has to do with the most likely time Tippit was actually killed, which you have not addressed at all. All you seem to be concerned with is getting Oswald at the scene on time to be there to do the deed. What's next; are you going to argue he flew there?

I say he did have time to get from his rooming house to get to the crime scene. And nobody can prove he didn't have time.

So, this is the the classic "I'm right unless you can prove me wrong" LN fallacy again, is it? If you are so sure Oswald did in fact have the time to get from the rooming house to the crime scene, why don't you just shut me up by providing a plausible argument to support your position?

You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

I think it's important to point out that there is more time elapsed than the mere time it takes to walk from the rooming house to the murder scene.    Mrs Markham said that the man who shot Tippit was walking EAST on 10th and was WEST of the intersection of 10th  & Patton, and the murder scene when she first saw Tippit tailing the man.....THEN she said that the man talked to Tippit through the patrol car window for a couple of minutes prior to Tippit getting out of the car......   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 15, 2019, 03:36:17 PM
You can only guess as you do not know how long it took Oswald to travel to the crime scene.

No guess work needed as (1) Gary Mack's time trial showed a minimum of 11 minutes required and (2) I walked the distance myself several times. No matter how much you argue, you will never convince me that Oswald could have walked the distance in under 11 minutes!

I think it's important to point out that there is more time elapsed than the mere time it takes to walk from the rooming house to the murder scene.    Mrs Markham said that the man who shot Tippit was walking EAST on 10th and was WEST of the intersection of 10th  & Patton, and the murder scene when she first saw Tippit tailing the man.....THEN she said that the man talked to Tippit through the patrol car window for a couple of minutes prior to Tippit getting out of the car......   

Walt,

I discussed this matter at the beginning of my post
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 04:22:23 PM
Walt,

I discussed this matter at the beginning of my post

The point was intended for Mr Hardaker .....  and anybody else who doesn't realize that there would have been more time involved than the mere time of walking from the roominghouse to the murder scene......   If it takes 11 minutes ( I walked it in 12 minutes) to cover the distance, then additional time needs to be added to allow the walk PAST the intersection , and then double back, and then the conversation through the car window.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 15, 2019, 05:13:34 PM
The point was intended for Mr Hardaker .....  and anybody else who doesn't realize that there would have been more time involved than the mere time of walking from the roominghouse to the murder scene......   If it takes 11 minutes ( I walked it in 12 minutes) to cover the distance, then additional time needs to be added to allow the walk PAST the intersection , and then double back, and then the conversation through the car window.....

Agreed  Thumb1:

The official time line has Tippit being killed at 1.14 or 1.15, but even that would be a very tight squeeze indeed when one figures in the additional time that passed prior to the shooting.

Obviously, Bowley wasn't ignored by WC for nothing!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 15, 2019, 06:59:04 PM
No one can say that Oswald didn't combine walking, sprinting, jogging, or trotting
Bottom line is that Oswald was Johnny-on-the-spot
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 15, 2019, 07:10:24 PM
No one can say that Oswald didn't combine walking, sprinting, jogging, or trotting
Bottom line is that Oswald was Johnny-on-the-spot

You've been thoroughly brain washed......  On the second thought....One can't wash something they don't have....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 16, 2019, 05:39:21 PM
You've been thoroughly brain washed......  On the second thought....One can't wash something they don't have....

Just as I thought... you sorry lot can't claim Oswald didn't jog, trot, sprint at times.
There goes your absolute dependence on witness time estimations and your own manipulation of same.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 16, 2019, 06:04:35 PM
Just as I thought... you sorry lot can't claim Oswald didn't jog, trot, sprint at times.
There goes your absolute dependence on witness time estimations and your own manipulation of same.

you sorry lot can't claim Oswald didn't jog, trot, sprint at times.

There is no reason for claiming that. If you claim Oswald was there, you need to show he could have gotten there on time to kill Tippit, prior to 1.10. Well can you?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 16, 2019, 06:47:08 PM
you sorry lot can't claim Oswald didn't jog, trot, sprint at times.

There is no reason for claiming that. If you claim Oswald was there, you need to show he could have gotten there on time to kill Tippit, prior to 1.10. Well can you?

Of course he can't.  He thinks that "not impossible" is good enough to show that something happened that way.

Probably.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 08:18:40 PM
Just as I thought... you sorry lot can't claim Oswald didn't jog, trot, sprint at times.
In a hurry to where? To shoot a cop? :-\ ---- Oops...Another conjecture overreach by Bill.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 16, 2019, 09:16:23 PM
In a hurry to where? To shoot a cop? :-\

Yes!  After all, he only had 6 minutes to get there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 09:18:31 PM
Indeed. Gary Mack did a time trial once and found that it would take a minimum of 11 minutes to walk the fastest route. 
It was manipulated. The Mack test looked like some guy who was walking to the store to get some beer...not a guy on the run. Macks test guy was not walking any 4+ miles an hour!
At a pace of 3 miles an hour which is a pretty 'brisk' pace...do the math--- It would take 20 minutes to walk a mile. The very shortest route from the sidewalk by the rooming house to the Tippit scene is at least .85 miles .85X 20=17 minutes. I took that route and it took me 18 minutes...jay-walking the cross streets... After resting on the way back...it took 16 minutes. Why the difference? I didn't know for a long time but the journey south is ever so slightly uphill away from the Trinity River direction.
Now of course this was back some time ago but I did a lot of walking in my day. I am a retired land surveyor.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 16, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
It was manipulated. The Mack test looked like some guy who was walking to the store to get some beer...not a guy on the run. Macks test guy was not walking any 4+ miles an hour!
At a pace of 3 miles an hour which is a pretty 'brisk' pace...do the math--- It would take 20 minutes to walk a mile. The very shortest route from the sidewalk by the rooming house to the Tippit scene is at least .85 miles .85X 20=17 minutes. I took that route and it took me 18 minutes...jay-walking the cross streets... After resting on the way back...it took 16 minutes. Why the difference? I didn't know for a long time but the journey south is ever so slightly uphill away from the Trinity River direction.
Now of course this was back some time ago but I did a lot of walking in my day. I am a retired land surveyor.

I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make, Jerry.

Manipulated or not, even the 11 minutes in Gary Mack's time trial wouldn't have been enough to get him to 10th/Patton on time to shoot Tippit. Even if you accept the official narrative's time of the shooting of 1.14, that still would require the killer to be at the scene no later than 1.11, as prior to the shooting he was seen walking up and down the street, being stopped by Tippit and talking to him through the passenger door window.

In other words, even if Oswald could have walked the distance in 11 minutes, he would have needed to leave the rooming house at 1.00 pm, but that's when Earlene Roberts said he came in.

Anybody who does the math, will find it simply does not add up.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 10:31:04 PM
I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make, Jerry.
The point is..I actually went out and walked it.
Everyone else is making the trip from their computer chair.
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 16, 2019, 10:41:28 PM
The point is..I actually went out and walked it.
Everyone else is making the trip from their computer chair.

Nope... wrong assumption. A few years ago, I walked the two fastest routes as well.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 11:21:33 PM
Lee Harvey Oswald was no avid walker. Not at all athletic. I have not seen any report that he ever was.
Only the maniac on the run story ::)
There are all kinds of documentation however, that he was a sedentary....reading/watching TV etc.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 17, 2019, 03:51:39 AM
You lot claim witness testimony unreliable, yet stick to witness time-estimations like white on rice.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 04:20:14 AM
You lot claim witness testimony unreliable, yet stick to witness time-estimations like white on rice.

Exactly, and even then the CT's cherry pick only the time eyewitnesses who support their Kooky conspiracy.

Earlene Roberts was half blind who apparently couldn't see squat but her "about 1PM" becomes exactly 1PM and even though she was distracted by the TV her "not longer than 3-4 minutes" guess becomes exactly 4 minutes.
Markham the "screwball" could remember a clock face but couldn't remember a human face.
Bowley's watch was never calibrated.
And this is constantly ignored, D.O.A. ffs means the time of death happened before the ambulance arrives.

At the end of the day the Police Radio transcripts present an easily verified timeline with a reasonable minor margin of error and this is the most accurate method for time estimation.

We all know how important time is when we are on our lunch breaks and Scoggins who was having his lunch said about 1:20 PM.

JohnM


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 17, 2019, 05:10:54 AM
We all know how important time is when we are on our lunch breaks and Scoggins who was having his lunch said about 1:20 PM.
See---- even you guys can't agree on a time (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15
Oh by the way...that Tippit death certificate?---Wasn't he pronounced dead at 1:15? 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 06:09:49 AM
See---- even you guys can't agree on a time (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)  Oh by the way...that Tippit death certificate?---Wasn't he pronounced dead at 1:15?

Quote
See---- even you guys can't agree on a time

No kidding Einstein, we're discussing an era when the way to set your watch was from other inaccurate sources so clearly from all this vague information there is no way to get the exact minute and second of Tippit's murder.

But we do have a ton of eyewitnesses who positively Identified Oswald in the bright outdoors, walking away from the Tippit murder scene with a revolver.
A revolver was sent to Oswald's PO Box and the same revolver was with Oswald at the theater.
The shells dropped at the scene were a precise match to Oswald's revolver.
Joseph Nicol provided photographic evidence that one bullet in Tippit was found to be an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.
Oswald's jacket was recovered in a car park that Oswald was seen entering.
Oswald was arrested without his jacket.
Oswald resisted arrest and pulled out his revolver to kill more cops.
Case Closed!

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 17, 2019, 06:32:10 AM
No kidding Einstein, we're discussing an era when the way to set your watch was from other inaccurate sources so clearly from all this vague information there is no way to get the exact minute and second of Tippit's murder.

But we do have a ton of eyewitnesses who positively Identified Oswald in the bright outdoors, walking away from the Tippit murder scene with a revolver.
A revolver was sent to Oswald's PO Box and the same revolver was with Oswald at the theater.
The shells dropped at the scene were a precise match to Oswald's revolver.
Joseph Nicol provided photographic evidence that one bullet in Tippit was found to be an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.
Oswald's jacket was recovered in a car park that Oswald was seen entering.
Oswald was arrested without his jacket.
Oswald resisted arrest and pulled out his revolver to kill more cops.
Case Closed!

JohnM

This vid from the freak could be 90% wrong but that would still leave a whole lot more right than anything you push. Don't you think there is some room for you to agree? Be honest
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 17, 2019, 06:51:36 AM
And this is constantly ignored, D.O.A. ffs means the time of death happened before the ambulance arrives.

No “Mytton”. DOA means dead on arrival at the hospital.

Quote
At the end of the day the Police Radio transcripts present an easily verified timeline with a reasonable minor margin of error and this is the most accurate method for time estimation.

Why? Just because you want it to be?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:06:44 AM
No “Mytton”. DOA means dead on arrival at the hospital.

Why? Just because you want it to be?

Quote
No “Mytton”. DOA means dead on arrival at the hospital.

Well John, the following document is quite clear, Tippit arrived DOA at the hospital therefore the time of death which by definition must have happened before Tippit arrives at the hospital, was 1:15 P.M. Sorry, you lose!

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

Quote
Why? Just because you want it to be?

What you or I want is irrelevant, the fact is that the Dallas Police radio was based on a clock that was calibrated because time was the basic backbone of the job and having as accurate time as possible was paramount.
Btw an important part of your Tippit timeline relies on a "screwball", how does that work?

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:21:16 AM
Lee Harvey Oswald was no avid walker. Not at all athletic. I have not seen any report that he ever was.
Only the maniac on the run story ::)
There are all kinds of documentation however, that he was a sedentary....reading/watching TV etc.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf

Oswald was a lean mean ex Marine who was a trained killing machine and suggesting that this skinny athletic looking young man who never even owned a car was a physical slacker defies all belief? And don't forget 8 hours a day Oswald was carting books all over a 6 story building, you try it.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 17, 2019, 12:48:09 PM
Oswald was a lean mean ex Marine who was a trained killing machine and suggesting that this skinny athletic looking young man who never even owned a car was a physical slacker defies all belief? And don't forget 8 hours a day Oswald was carting books all over a 6 story building, you try it.

JohnM
All over a six-story...??? More time in other parts of the building so busy less energy complete exhaustion but you dream he was the Roger Bannister of Oakcliff. Never breaks a sweat at work or when arrested why? Because there was no race just LNers who like to increase the pace of Lee to make it fit a story which btw is still an impossible story. Not that you were any smarter when you were 4 yrs old but you probably had a better imagination. Lazy lazy
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 01:11:17 PM
Exactly, and even then the CT's cherry pick only the time eyewitnesses who support their Kooky conspiracy.

Earlene Roberts was half blind who apparently couldn't see squat but her "about 1PM" becomes exactly 1PM and even though she was distracted by the TV her "not longer than 3-4 minutes" guess becomes exactly 4 minutes.
Markham the "screwball" could remember a clock face but couldn't remember a human face.
Bowley's watch was never calibrated.
And this is constantly ignored, D.O.A. ffs means the time of death happened before the ambulance arrives.

At the end of the day the Police Radio transcripts present an easily verified timeline with a reasonable minor margin of error and this is the most accurate method for time estimation.

We all know how important time is when we are on our lunch breaks and Scoggins who was having his lunch said about 1:20 PM.

JohnM

More propaganda BS from the spin master.
Exaggeration and misrepresentation doesn't help your argument. After so many years of peddling your usual crap, you really should have understood that by now.

Earlene Roberts was half blind who apparently couldn't see squat but her "about 1PM" becomes exactly 1PM and even though she was distracted by the TV her "not longer than 3-4 minutes" guess becomes exactly 4 minutes.

Roberts was trying to get the TV to work because she wanted to watch the 1.00 pm news. That made her acutely aware of the time.

Markham the "screwball" could remember a clock face but couldn't remember a human face.

You mean the "screwball" who became the WC's star witness?

Markham knew exactly when to leave her home to catch her regular bus. That made her acutely aware of the time.

Bowley's watch was never calibrated.

It didn't have to be. If his clock was late by five minutes, as the LN fools suggest, he would have been 5 minutes late to pick up his daughter from school. He wasn't!

And this is constantly ignored, D.O.A. ffs means the time of death happened before the ambulance arrives.

Total BS. DPD detective Davenport (who was there) disagrees with you. He said Tippit was declared DOA at 1.15 at the hospital.

At the end of the day the Police Radio transcripts present an easily verified timeline with a reasonable minor margin of error and this is the most accurate method for time estimation.

An easily verified timeline LOL

So, under no circumstance could you put any stock in the real world time references by the belt or any continuity on time references because there were no time references on the belt; they were only spoken times, and those spoken times had no faithful validity... - James C. Bowles, Communications Supervisor of the Dallas Police Department.

 http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

We all know how important time is when we are on our lunch breaks and Scoggins who was having his lunch said about 1:20 PM.

Just how often will you keep repeating this already debunked piece of BS

Scoggins actually wasn't aware of the time at all. Anybody who reads his testimony will find that he got his time wrong. In his testimony he said he picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approx 12:35 and he discharged him at 321 North Ewing at 1:00. 

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at 321 North Ewing.

However, that trip is only 9,9 miles long and, depending on how one drives, doesn't take anymore than 16 to max. 20 minutes. In other words, he got to North Ewing at 12:55 or even earlier. He then goes on to say that he went to the Gentlemen's Club he believed to be at 125 Patton, which is only a 2 to 3 minutes drive. I know, Johnny doesn't like this kind of deductive reasoning, but for those without a bias, it's obvious that Scoggins really must have arrived at the Club just before 1:00 PM.

Then it gets really dodgy for John, because Scoggins himself can't even say for sure just how long he was at the club before returning to his car making his estimate of no value whatsoever....

But then, it's really the only thing Johnny has to hold on, so he goes with Scoggins estimate at 1:20 being "near perfect" when it really isn't. In fact it's actually some five minutes after the WC bible tells him Tippit was shot.

Btw it is hilarious that you complain about time estimates by witnesses, only to rely on an estimate by Scoggins.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 01:23:26 PM
No kidding Einstein, we're discussing an era when the way to set your watch was from other inaccurate sources so clearly from all this vague information there is no way to get the exact minute and second of Tippit's murder.

But we do have a ton of eyewitnesses who positively Identified Oswald in the bright outdoors, walking away from the Tippit murder scene with a revolver.
A revolver was sent to Oswald's PO Box and the same revolver was with Oswald at the theater.
The shells dropped at the scene were a precise match to Oswald's revolver.
Joseph Nicol provided photographic evidence that one bullet in Tippit was found to be an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.
Oswald's jacket was recovered in a car park that Oswald was seen entering.
Oswald was arrested without his jacket.
Oswald resisted arrest and pulled out his revolver to kill more cops.
Case Closed!

JohnM

No kidding Einstein, we're discussing an era when the way to set your watch was from other inaccurate sources so clearly from all this vague information there is no way to get the exact minute and second of Tippit's murder.

More BS... radio and television news casts happened at specific times, making it an easy way to set one's watch.


the way to set your watch was from other inaccurate sources

That would include the two clocks used by the DPD dispatchers. According to Bowles, the only more or less reliable clock in the room was behind them and even that had a error margin of 2 minutes either way.

Everything else in your post is standard LN propaganda and of no value or significance.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 01:25:32 PM
This vid from the freak could be 90% wrong but that would still leave a whole lot more right than anything you push. Don't you think there is some room for you to agree? Be honest

You are really asking Mytton to be honest? Really?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 01:42:03 PM
Well John, the following document is quite clear, Tippit arrived DOA at the hospital therefore the time of death which by definition must have happened before Tippit arrives at the hospital, was 1:15 P.M. Sorry, you lose!

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)


Amazing... the document clearly gives the Methodist Hospital at the place of death and 1.15 pm as the time of death, yet Mytton still misrepresents the information provided by the document.   

Quote
What you or I want is irrelevant, the fact is that the Dallas Police radio was based on a clock that was calibrated because time was the basic backbone of the job and having as accurate time as possible was paramount.
Btw an important part of your Tippit timeline relies on a "screwball", how does that work?

JohnM

the fact is that the Dallas Police radio was based on a clock that was calibrated

Before you start telling lies, you might want to make sure you are up to date with the known facts....

Two quotes from the same page: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.

Spoken time stamps that could be two minutes ahead or behind the "official" time (whatever that is), recorded on voice activated devices do not provide a solid basis for preparing accurate transcripts.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 17, 2019, 03:41:05 PM
Well John, the following document is quite clear, Tippit arrived DOA at the hospital therefore the time of death which by definition must have happened before Tippit arrives at the hospital, was 1:15 P.M. Sorry, you lose!
You are wrong Colombo.... DOA means dead on arrival not dead before arrival.
Just like the others are posting-----------------------
The certificate states place of death....Methodist Hospital.....where he was pronounced dead at 1:15.
Yeah it was clear--so you can't go and muddy it up with conjecture and wishful thinking.
 
Oswald was a lean mean ex Marine who was a trained killing machine and suggesting that this skinny athletic looking young man who never even owned a car was a physical slacker defies all belief? And don't forget 8 hours a day Oswald was carting books all over a 6 story building, you try it.
OK...Oswald worked out at the gym? A killing machine? I thought he was a radar tech. Please stop the asinine remarks it is reducing what IQ you have left.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 17, 2019, 07:34:48 PM
Despite presenting proof I am confident he had read, David Von Pein ignored my discovery Virginia Davis lied about her age to DPD in November, 1963 (she claimed she was age 16 while birth records show she was not age 16 until June, 1964) and in her WC testimony in April of the following year.:

(Sister-in-law Barbara admittedly witnessed much less than Virginia.)
Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24856-the-tippit-case-in-the-new-millenium/page/3/
Posted May 3, 2018 (edited)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The best witnesses to prove Oswald's guilt in the Tippit murder are, IMO, the two Davis girls, who each IDed Oswald later that day [11/22/63] in a lineup. And they each saw LHO dumping shells out of a REVOLVER. (Ergo, the killer was not armed with an "automatic", which would be foolish in this case anyway, since--per CTers--they were trying to "frame" good ol' Lee Harvey for this 2nd murder too; so why would they frame him with an automatic when the patsy didn't own such a weapon?)

Barbara Davis Affidavit

Virginia Davis Affidavit

There is no safe hiding place for the conspiracy theorists in the Tippit case. Oswald left his calling card at the scene, and was positively identified by multiple witnesses (either doing the shooting or fleeing the area immediately afterward).

No amount of conspiracy spin will exonerate Lee Oswald for J.D. Tippit's slaying....

On the same page as David's 2018 assertion, Karl Kinaski posted.:
Quote
What we know for sure is the time Tippit was shot. It was 1:06 pm. Quote from a CTKA review of Barry Earnest book THE GIRL ON THE STAIRS: 

"Barry then visited the scene of policeman J. D. Tippit's shooting. Here, he meets a witness that no agent of government had talked to, a Mrs. Higgins who lived nearby. She offered him some very important information. She had heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. Barry asked her what time it was. She said it was 1:06. He asked her how she recalled that specific time. She said because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." (Pronto after that announcement she heard the shots which killed Tippit)

Donald Reed Higgin's death certificate of October 25, 1969, indicates the couple still resided at 417 East Tenth, (1963 Dallas city directory displays "417 East Tenth, Apt. C").

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitwitnessHiggins1963.jpg)

Ten years later, the widowed Mrs. Higgins:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitwitnessHiggins1973.jpg)

The reporting person on the Higgins death certificate was "Mrs. D.R. Higgins". I found her grave (died about 1993) (Willa Mae, since remarried) in Oklahoma, and husband Donald's grave is here.:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12058614/donald-reed-higgins

I doubt there will be any interest, but widow Willa Mae Higgins remarried after husband Donald's death in 1969 and my data
on Willa Mae's remarried last name and her grave location in Oklahoma is on a hard drive of an old computer. If I receive a request, I will put more time into finding those details. I also recall locating her obituary.

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17359-new-book-on-victoria-adams-by-author-barry-ernest/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-256026
Guest Tom Scully  Posted June 30, 2012
Barry, after reading this post yesterday, your interview of the Higgins couple at 417 E. 10th St.,

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8366&st=75#entry256022

.....I wondered when you interviewed them, what their background was and what became of them.

Your interview impresses any reader with the weight of the knowledge Mrs. Higgins had hanging over her.

If she is to believed, it was impossible for Oswald to have arrived at the murder scene in time to shoot

officer Tippit at 1:06 pm.

After her husband, Donald Reed Higgins died at age 59, in October, 1969, Mrs. D.R. Higgins did what anyone

in her position would be likely to do. She buried her husband in another state, and disappeared. She does not

occupy the grave next to her husband's, and I find no trace of her. I am not alone. A nephew of her husband seems to

have the same frustration. He provides the details that Higgins was an accomplished pianist who played at the Patio Lounge, and that Mrs. Higgins was a native American from Oklahoma who was named Billie.....

.....
Quote
https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitty/list/txdallas.rootsweb.com/thread/18151442/ WOW!!! Jim you are a geneaology angel. This is the first breakthrough in finding my Uncle Donald. His younger brother is going to be so happy, after all it has been almost 60 years since we heard from Donald. What else can I do to find out more stuff? Most grateful, Robert Leonard

Those damned "injuns," gettin' drunk on fire water and spewing their lies!

Unfortunately, the details provided to Higgins's nephew, Robert Leonard in 2002 of a Willa Mae Higgins who had died in Texas were inaccurate, pertaining to a different Willa Mae. Robert Leonard was still searching, seven years later.:

Quote
https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitty/list/txdallas.rootsweb.com/thread/3266256/
[TXDALLAS] Looking for a Dallas street
Robert Leonard
2/27/2009, 4:38:24 AM

In the late 1940s my ant and uncle (Donald Reed Higgins) lived across the
street from a very large park. I'm confident the name of their street was
Lemoine. I can't find it however, and was hoping that somebody might know of
it? Thanks, robert leonard
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 17, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
To qualify for the Marines one must pass boot camp
Many fail due to the rigorous training

But more importantly (as JohnM points out) Oswald was lugging heavy books all over the TSBD every day. And using the stairs even just a few times per day would be provide excellent training.

Trotting/walking/jogging/sprinting for a few minutes would be dead easy for the little maggot.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 17, 2019, 07:44:29 PM
DOA means having died before getting to a hospital, emergency room, etc.

You can look it up
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 07:44:58 PM
You are wrong Colombo.... DOA means dead on arrival not dead before arrival.
Just like the others are posting-----------------------
The certificate states place of death....Methodist Hospital.....where he was pronounced dead at 1:15.
Yeah it was clear--so you can't go and muddy it up with conjecture and wishful thinking.
 OK...Oswald worked out at the gym? A killing machine? I thought he was a radar tech. Please stop the asinine remarks it is reducing what IQ you have left.

Quote
You are wrong Colombo.... DOA means dead on arrival not dead before arrival.
Just like the others are posting-----------------------
The certificate states place of death....Methodist Hospital.....where he was pronounced dead at 1:15.

Let me put this another way, say someone dies during the night and they are picked up by ambulance and driven back to the hospital, when the dead body arrives at the hospital the dead body is "dead on arrival" and the time of death must be estimated by examining the condition of the body, temperature, rigor mortis etc.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

Quote
OK...Oswald worked out at the gym?

How is doing bench presses etc etc going to make someone walk faster? but on the other hand working 8 hours a day 5 days a week hauling books all over a 6 story building will definitely have a positive effect.

Quote
A killing machine?

Yeah, they trained Oswald to kill. In the following image we don't see Oswald playing with kittens and flowers.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hP8g8m7H/Oswald-killing-machine.jpg)

Quote
Please stop the asinine remarks it is reducing what IQ you have left.

Whenever you clowns are cornered, out come the lazy insults. Yawn!

Btw did you catch that little puppy in the posts above nipping at my heels, how sweet.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/2FhASosZtLUPe/giphy.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
DOA means having died before getting to a hospital, emergency room, etc.

You can look it up

Yep, the clue is the actual words being used(Duh!) and I really don't understand why such a simple concept is not being grasped?

Dead on arrival (DOA), also dead in the field and brought in dead (BID)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_on_arrival

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 17, 2019, 08:01:07 PM
Yep, the clue is the actual words being used(Duh!) and I really don't understand why such a simple concept is not being grasped?

Dead on arrival (DOA), also dead in the field and brought in dead (BID)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_on_arrival

JohnM

B.S.... you omitted the rest of the statement!

Quote
... indicates that a patient was found to be already clinically dead upon the arrival of professional medical assistance,

Are you boldly (no shame) stating that a driver dispatched from a funeral home was a component of
Quote
professional medical assistance....

Really?

DOA means having died before getting to a hospital, emergency room, etc.

Where did you pull that out of? At least wash it off....it's still brown, moist, and steaming.
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_on_arrival#Medical_DOA
... indicates that a patient was found to be already clinically dead upon the arrival of professional medical assistance, often in the form of first responders such as emergency medical technicians, paramedics, or police.

Did we cross post, or did you ignore the details I just posted?
Despite presenting proof I am confident he had read, David Von Pein ignored my discovery Virginia Davis lied about her age to DPD in November, 1963 (she claimed she was age 16 while birth records show she was not age 16 until June, 1964) and in her WC testimony in April of the following year.:

..... Ernst interview of E. Tenth St. resident Tippit shooting witness, Mrs. Donald Higgins, TV announcer, 1:06 pm....

This is a thread chock full of your "feelings". They do not inform. I am extremely weary of reading posts after post of members' feelings and other unsubstantiated opinions.

48 pages, so far, of a thread of CT "fluff".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:06:27 PM
Where did you pull that out of? At least wash it off....it's still brown, moist, and steaming.
Did we cross post, or did you ignore the details I just posted. This is a thread chock full of your "feelings". They do not inform.
I am extremely weary of reading posts after post of members' feelings and other unsubstantiated opinions.

48 pages, so far, of a thread of CT "fluff".

C'mon Tom stop this constant bitching, if the Forums contents don't satisfy your hoity-toity requirements, then go away!

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 08:12:27 PM
Let me put this another way, say someone dies during the night and they are picked up by ambulance and driven back to the hospital, when the dead body arrives at the hospital the dead body is "dead on arrival" and the time of death must be estimated by examining the condition of the body, temperature, rigor mortis etc.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

How is doing bench presses etc etc going to make someone walk faster? but on the other hand working 8 hours a day 5 days a week hauling books all over a 6 story building will definitely have a positive effect.

Yeah, they trained Oswald to kill. In the following image we don't see Oswald playing with kittens and flowers.

Whenever you clowns are cornered, out come the lazy insults. Yawn!

Btw did you catch that little puppy in the posts above nipping at my heels, how sweet.

JohnM

Let me put this another way, say someone dies during the night and they are picked up by ambulance and driven back to the hospital, when the dead body arrives at the hospital the dead body is "dead on arrival" and the time of death must be estimated by examining the condition of the body, temperature, rigor mortis etc.


Who do you think you are fooling with this crap? Tippit was killed only a minute or two earlier. Do you really believe the condition of the body would have changed in those two minutes in such a way that an estimate for a time of death was required?

The ambulance arrived at the hospital and, according to Davenport's report, they tried to revive Tippit. When they failed they just qualified it as a DOA and registered the time at the hospital. Time of death; 1.15pm and place of death; the Methodist Hospital!

Get over it and take your propaganda crap elsewhere... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 17, 2019, 08:18:34 PM
C'mon Tom stop this constant bitching, if the Forums contents don't satisfy your hoity-toity requirements, then go away!

JohnM

When a thread swells to 48 pages it is unreadable and brimming with unsupported opinions and feelings that indicate informing readers is not the purpose or even the potential of the thread.

New rule! Rebuttal of B.S. with actual, verifiable facts is "bitching".

You posted this, omitting the part about arrival of medical professionals.

Yep, the clue is the actual words being used(Duh!) and I really don't understand why such a simple concept is not being grasped?

Dead on arrival (DOA), also dead in the field and brought in dead (BID)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_on_arrival

JohnM
What other reason did you do that, other than because no medical professional ever appeared at the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Sincerity would be a greatly appreciated, new departure. If your agenda is about actual facts finding and not cheerleading for team CT, why not give it a try?

Quote
https://oakcliff.advocatemag.com/2018/04/the-funeral-home-that-responded-to-oswalds-victim/
The funeral home that responded to Oswald’s victim

....After dispatching officers to the scene, the police switchboard operator picked up the direct line to the Hughes funeral home, whose job it was to provide ambulance services to that part of Oak Cliff. There were no private ambulance companies or emergency medical technicians in the early ’60s, and emergency medical service wouldn’t be officially implemented until 1971.

Up until 1973, the year the city of Dallas hired its own operators to answer emergency calls, ambulances were provided by area funeral homes that the city contracted. In 1963, the city of Dallas had three main funeral homes that provided ambulance services. ....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:28:06 PM
B.S.... you omitted the rest of the statement!

Are you boldly (no shame) stating that a driver dispatched from a funeral home was a component of
Really?


I don't need your amateurish infantile insults.
Tippit was worked on at Methodist hospital where they tried to breathe life back into Tippit's lifeless body, therefore Tippit was already dead before any attempt of resuscitation was made and knowing that Tippit was shot several times in the chest and once in the temple, the medical professionals came to the conclusion that Tippit died at the scene, hence the 1:15 time of death.
Go to your local hospital emergency section and get some real medical advice instead of relying on your layman biased interpretation of a "Wikipedia" article and then get back to us.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 08:33:11 PM
I don't need your amateurish infantile insults.
Tippit was worked on at Methodist hospital where they tried to breathe life back into Tippit's lifeless body, therefore Tippit was already dead before any attempt of resuscitation was made and knowing that Tippit was shot several times in the chest and once in the temple, the medical professionals came to the conclusion that Tippit died at the scene, hence the 1:15 time of death.
Go to your local hospital emergency section and get some real medical advice instead of relying on your layman biased interpretation of a "Wikipedia" article and then get back to us.

JohnM

Tippit was worked on at Methodist hospital where they tried to breathe life back into Tippit's lifeless body,

Indeed, and how in the world do you know that he arrived dead at the hospital?

therefore Tippit was already dead before any attempt of resuscitation was made and knowing that Tippit was shot several times in the chest and once in the temple, the medical professionals came to the conclusion that Tippit died at the scene, hence the 1:15 time of death.

You are making this up as you go along. The release for autopsy document clearly states that the place of death was the Methodist Hospital.

And btw, Detective Davenport who (unlike you) was at the hospital when Tippit was declared DOA at 1.15 pm disagrees with you.

Go to your local hospital emergency section and get some real medical advice instead of relying on your layman biased interpretation of a "Wikipedia" article and then get back to us.

Says the guy who just used a Wikipedia article to support his argument! Hilarious!


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 17, 2019, 08:34:37 PM
I don't need your amateurish infantile insults.
Tippit was worked on at Methodist hospital where they tried to breathe life back into Tippit's lifeless body, therefore Tippit was already dead before any attempt of resuscitation was made and knowing that Tippit was shot several times in the chest and once in the temple, the medical professionals came to the conclusion that Tippit died at the scene, hence the 1:15 time of death.
Go to your local hospital emergency section and get some real medical advice instead of relying on your layman biased interpretation of a "Wikipedia" article and then get back to us.

JohnM

No matter how you disparage me personally, I called you out for misleading readers, which you indeed did. The fact is no "medical professional" was in any position to pronounce Tippit "D.O.A." until AFTER his ARRIVAL at the hospital.
,
I participate here hoping against hope to learn what I am unaware of, and to share what I can support.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:34:55 PM
When a thread swells to 48 pages it is unreadable blah blah blah

Nobody cares what you think, this Forum isn't a University Textbook, this is a public Forum where people give an opinion and if you don't like it make your own Forum where you can employ your own Nazi methods of censorship.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:39:40 PM
No matter how you disparage me personally, I called you out for misleading readers. I participate here to learn what I am unaware of, and to share what I can support.

As I said you're interpreting the Wikipedia article by following your usual biased agenda and is hardly reality. Go and get real medical confirmation and then we can discuss this further, that is if you decide to stick around with all us commoners.

JohnM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 08:43:18 PM
No matter how you disparage me personally, I called you out for misleading readers, which you indeed did. The fact is no medical professional was in any position to pronounce Tippit "D.O.A." until AFTER his ARRIVAL at the hospital.
,
I participate here to learn what I am unaware of, and to share what I can support.

Well said!

You can tell when Mytton is getting desperate. He starts calling people names..... to call you a Nazi is actually very low, even for his extremely low standard.

Who knows, perhaps his Siamese twin will show up soon to give him a helping hand
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 08:53:55 PM
The fact is no "medical professional" was in any position to pronounce Tippit "D.O.A." until AFTER his ARRIVAL at the hospital.

This isn't difficult, the time that the doctors say the patient is "DOA" is irrelevant, the only pertinent time is the actual time that the patient dies.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 09:00:33 PM
This isn't difficult, the time that the doctors say the patient is "DOA" is irrelevant, the only pertinent time is the actual time that the patient dies.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

JohnM

More stupidity...

The actual time that Tippit died was 1.15 pm and the place of death, according to the same document, was the Methodist Hospital.

Also, in his report, Detective Davenport wrote; "We assisted in getting the officer to the Emergency Room. And observed the doctors and nurses trying to bring the Officer back to life. At 1:15 pm (originally he  wrote 1:06 pm, which was later typed over) Dr. Richard Liquori pronounced him dead."

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 10:36:39 PM
OK, for the less desperate, in the section where the precise details are filled in, the following quote makes it absolutely clear that Tippit was pronounced dead on arrival(DOA), which can only possibly mean that Tippit was dead before he arrived, Tippit may have died 1 second before he arrived but he was dead on arrival(DOA).

PERTINENT FACTS REGARDING DEATH

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/head.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8SMG08Q/tippit-shot-position.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 10:44:12 PM
OK, for the less desperate in the section where the precise details are filled in, the following quote makes it absolutely clear that Tippit was pronounced dead on arrival(DOA), which can only possibly mean that Tippit was dead before he arrived, Tippit may have died 1 second before he arrived but he was dead on arrival(DOA). The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

PERTINENT FACTS REGARDING DEATH

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.


The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

JohnM

Tippit may have died 1 second before he arrived but he was dead on arrival(DOA)

They verified his death at the emergency room and since he may indeed have only died 1 second before arrival they used the actual time as the time of death.


The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

Indeed, which is why they wrote that the actual of death was 1.15 pm and that he died at the Methodist Hospital.

It is also why Detective Davenport wrote in his report; "We assisted in getting the officer to the Emergency Room. And observed the doctors and nurses trying to bring the Officer back to life. At 1:15 pm (originally he  wrote 1:06 pm, which was later typed over) Dr. Richard Liquori pronounced him dead."

Mytton's hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Kennedy was shot and obviously killed at 12:30 pm at Dealey Plaza. Half his head was blown off, ffs, yet the doctors declared him dead at Parkland Hospital at 1 PM. In this case, Mytton has argued in the past that Kennedy could have survived the massive loss of blood and a fatal head wound for 30 minutes.

But when it comes to Tippit, he argues that when the doctors declared him dead, they actually used the time he was shot at 10th/Patton, because they would have known "how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man."

Go figure!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 17, 2019, 10:47:18 PM

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3w0HcjTFj8URW/giphy.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 17, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3w0HcjTFj8URW/giphy.gif)

JohnM

Oh, look... Johnny is calling for his mommy
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 17, 2019, 11:31:07 PM
Well John, the following document is quite clear, Tippit arrived DOA at the hospital therefore the time of death which by definition must have happened before Tippit arrives at the hospital, was 1:15 P.M. Sorry, you lose!

Pronounced DOA by Dr Liguori at 1:15 PM, "Mytton".  You lose.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)

Quote
What you or I want is irrelevant, the fact is that the Dallas Police radio was based on a clock that was calibrated because time was the basic backbone of the job and having as accurate time as possible was paramount.

Do you have any evidence for how or if the police dispatcher's clock was "calibrated", or did you just make all this up?

Quote
Btw an important part of your Tippit timeline relies on a "screwball", how does that work?

Corroborated by Bowley, Higgins, Dr Liguori.  How many do you need?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 17, 2019, 11:53:06 PM
OK, for the less desperate, in the section where the precise details are filled in, the following quote makes it absolutely clear that Tippit was pronounced dead on arrival(DOA), which can only possibly mean that Tippit was dead before he arrived, Tippit may have died 1 second before he arrived but he was dead on arrival(DOA).

PERTINENT FACTS REGARDING DEATH

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/head.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8SMG08Q/tippit-shot-position.jpg)

JohnM

The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

Yes ....Whoever fired these bullets was an expert with revolver he was using.....I seriously doubt that an inexperienced gunman could have fired a an old .38 with a sawed off barrel with this kind of accuracy.....   Since the witnesses said that the man walked away unloading the revolver one shell at a time he clearly was NOT using a Smith & Wesson...   and I'd bet the barrel was not sawed of either...... 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 12:17:46 AM
Pronounced DOA by Dr Liguori at 1:15 PM, "Mytton".  You lose.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)

Do you have any evidence for how or if the police dispatcher's clock was "calibrated", or did you just make all this up?

Corroborated by Bowley, Higgins, Dr Liguori.  How many do you need?

Quote
Pronounced DOA by Dr Liguori at 1:15 PM, "Mytton".  You lose.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)

Hmmm, a police report written by a "police man" who you say can lie and probably not trained in the methodology of medicine vs an official medical document with the exact time of death, sorry you lose by previous association!

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

Quote
Do you have any evidence for how or if the police dispatcher's clock was "calibrated", or did you just make all this up?

That's a strange request coming from a man who trusts in the random time described by a "screwball".

Quote
Corroborated by Bowley, Higgins, Dr Liguori.  How many do you need?

No, Bowley's watch was never calibrated and even at 1:10 with a murder just moments before gives Oswald plenty of time, Higgins was way after the fact and as shown Dr Liquori was quoted by a "policeman".

In other words I have supplied a mountain of evidence and you're reduced to screwing over the eyewitnesses. Nice try!

JohnM



Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 18, 2019, 12:31:00 AM
Hmmm, a police report written by a "police man" who you say can lie and probably not trained in the methodology of medicine vs an official medical document with the exact time of death, sorry you lose by previous association!

Your “official medical document” says he died at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, so you lose both ways.

Quote
That's a strange request coming from a man who trusts in the random time described by a "screwball".

Is that your way of admitting that you made up all the nonsense about the police clock being calibrated?

Quote
No, Bowley's watch was never calibrated

How would you know that? There’s just as much evidence (ie none) that the police dispatcher’s clock was calibrated.

Quote
and even at 1:10 with a murder just moments before gives Oswald plenty of time,

Plenty of time for what?

Quote
In other words I have supplied a mountain of evidence and you're reduced to screwing over the eyewitnesses. Nice try!

You’ve supplied a mountain of BS rhetoric and propaganda.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 18, 2019, 12:32:32 AM
Hmmm, a police report written by a "police man" who you say can lie and probably not trained in the methodology of medicine vs an official medical document with the exact time of death, sorry you lose by previous association!

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

That's a strange request coming from a man who trusts in the random time described by a "screwball".

No, Bowley's watch was never calibrated and even at 1:10 with a murder just moments before gives Oswald plenty of time, Higgins was way after the fact and as shown Dr Liquori was quoted by a "policeman".

In other words I have supplied a mountain of evidence and you're reduced to screwing over the eyewitnesses. Nice try!

JohnM

Evasive.....

Hmmm, a police report written by a "police man" who you say can lie and probably not trained in the methodology of medicine vs an official medical document with the exact time of death, sorry you lose by previous association!

More hypocrisy. Mytton relies on reports from police officers until they say something he doesn't like. And then he throws them under the bus.

Sounds a bit like Trump, doesn't it.

That's a strange request coming from a man who trusts in the random time described by a "screwball".

More evasion.... This "screwball" was the WC's star witness, yet Mytton has no problem throwing her under a bus when it serves his purpose.

No, Bowley's watch was never calibrated

Nor were the clocks used by the DPD dispatchers. But if Bowley's watch didn't give the correct time, he would have been late to pick up his daughter from school. He wasn't!

and even at 1:10 with a murder just moments before gives Oswald plenty of time

No it didn't!

Higgins was way after the fact and as shown Dr Liquori was quoted by a "policeman".

Not only evasive, but dishonest as well.... Dr. Liquori's time was mentioned in the authorisation for autopsy, shown earlier, which came from a Justice of the Peace.

In other words I have supplied a mountain of evidence and you're reduced to screwing over the eyewitnesses. Nice try!

Actually, as per usual, all you have supplied is hot air and a lot of BS
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 12:47:06 AM
Your “official medical document” says he died at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, so you lose both ways.

Is that your way of admitting that you made up all the nonsense about the police clock being calibrated?

How would you know that? There’s just as much evidence (ie none) that the police dispatcher’s clock was calibrated.

Plenty of time for what?

You’ve supplied a mountain of BS rhetoric and propaganda.

Quote
Your “official medical document” says he died at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, so you lose both ways.

Read it again, "was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival."

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

Quote
Is that your way of admitting that you made up all the nonsense about the police clock being calibrated?

Why would it be nonsense?

Quote
How would you know that?

No, Bowley's watch has to be officially calibrated, just saying it was is pointless

Quote
There’s just as much evidence (ie none) that the police dispatcher’s clock was calibrated.

Oops, that puts you in a bit of a pickle.

Quote
Plenty of time for what?

Plenty of time to be positively identified at the Rooming House and at the scene of the Tippit murder.

JohnM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 18, 2019, 12:51:41 AM
Read it again, "was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival."

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

Why would it be nonsense?

No, Bowley's watch has to be officially calibrated, just saying it was is pointless

Oops, that puts you in a bit of a pickle.

Plenty of time to be positively identified at the Rooming House and at the scene of the Tippit murder.

JohnM

Johnny is getting desperate.... he knows his "mountain of evidence" is only a figment of his imagination which doesn't stand up against actual facts....

Poor Johnny....

Btw, I like this new arrangement where Johnny ignores my post only to make a fool of himself later by bringing up crap (he calls arguments) that have already been debunked.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 18, 2019, 02:02:57 AM
If the ambulance arrived say, at 1:18, and then Dr.Liqouri pronounced Oswald DOA after a quick examination at 1:18, but wrote his "physicians estimate" of the time of death occurring at 1:15, then should not the detectives statement be something like:

AT 1:18, we arrived at the emergency room and Dr Liquori pronounced Oswald DOA and estimated that the death occurred approximately 12:15.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
If the ambulance arrived say, at 1:18, and then Dr.Liqouri pronounced Oswald DOA after a quick examination at 1:18, but wrote his "physicians estimate" of the time of death occurring at 1:15, then should not the detectives statement be something like:

AT 1:18, we arrived at the emergency room and Dr Liquori pronounced Oswald DOA and estimated that the death occurred approximately 12:15.

The amount of "to the exact minute precision" that you expect just wasn't a part of the times, look at all of the written down times and they are "nearly always" in multiples of five.

1:30 3:10 1:15
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvMJStK5/metapth339951-m-DSMA-91-001-0810007-2518-01-med-res.jpg)

1:15 3:00
(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

Here is some eyewitnesses at the assassination scene and the times are all over the place. But what is interesting is the two eyewitnesses who saw the exact same Hertz clock and give times 4 minutes apart, humans make mistakes, and on top of that what's also fascinating is that these two eyewitnesses both break the "5 minute rule" ironically because they remembered to look at a digital clock, the same format that we all take for granted today but just wasn't usually accessible at the time hence all the rounded off times.   

Mr. LIEBELER - Up on the triple underpass?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm Street, this was approximately 12:25

Glen A. Bennett about 12:25 P.M

Mrs. JOSEPH EDDIE DEAN  At approximately 12:40 p.m

MARY ANN MOORMAN at approximately 12:25 p.mp

Mr. MILLER - About 12:15 or 12:20.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what time the motorcade came by?
Mr. MILLER - No; I don't, not for sure.
Mr. BELIN - About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade?
Mr. MILLER - About 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 03:33:29 AM
Pronounced DOA by Dr Liguori at 1:15 PM, "Mytton".  You lose.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339951/m1/1/med_res_d/)


What time? Oops!

(http://whokilledjfk.net/images/tippit17.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 18, 2019, 04:56:35 AM
What time? Oops!

.....

JohnM

Grow up and admit there was a problem, lay it squarely on where it belongs, Dallas officials. The death certificate is an
official document, a record of the homicide death of an on duty, city police officer. It documents FOREVER, the time of injury
as 1:18 pm and the time of death at 1:15 pm. Bowley claims he arrived at 1:10 pm, Mrs. Higgins of 417 E. Tenth told Barry Ernst a short time later that she heard the shots, rushed outside and this coincided with a TV announcer saying the time was 1:06 pm. This is a useless exercise, you know it, give us all a break and stop posting because officials corrupted the official record! Why do almost no forum posters exhibit discernment about what is and is not likely to be resolved by posting, but instead clog this forum literally chock full of unreadable nonsense, unless they are not as nonsensically repeating the same lack of judgment and the intention is to make this forum brimming with unreadable nonsense?

Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/markham1.htm

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.
.....
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
.....
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340598/
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitHelenMarkhamAffadavit.jpg)

....
On the same page as David's 2018 assertion, Karl Kinaski posted.:
Quote
What we know for sure is the time Tippit was shot. It was 1:06 pm. Quote from a CTKA review of Barry Earnest book THE GIRL ON THE STAIRS: 

"Barry then visited the scene of policeman J. D. Tippit's shooting. Here, he meets a witness that no agent of government had talked to, a Mrs. Higgins who lived nearby. She offered him some very important information. She had heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. Barry asked her what time it was. She said it was 1:06. He asked her how she recalled that specific time. She said because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." (Pronto after that announcement she heard the shots which killed Tippit)

Donald Reed Higgin's death certificate of October 25, 1969, indicates the couple still resided at 417 East Tenth, (1963 Dallas city directory displays "417 East Tenth, Apt. C").

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitwitnessHiggins1963.jpg)

......

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitDeathCertificate.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 18, 2019, 05:35:45 AM

(...)

Quote from: Bill Chapman on Today at 12:43:32 AM
'DOA means having died before getting to a hospital, emergency room, etc.'

Scully said:
Where did you pull that out of? At least wash it off....it's still brown, moist, and steaming.
>>> Take it up with Merriam-Webster, professor
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dead%20on%20arrival

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 18, 2019, 05:43:31 AM
.....

No, Bowley's watch was never calibrated and even at 1:10 with a murder just moments before gives Oswald plenty of time, Higgins was way after the fact and as shown Dr Liquori was quoted by a "policeman".

In other words I have supplied a mountain of evidence and you're reduced to screwing over the eyewitnesses. Nice try!

JohnM

Impossible to dispute facts. On page 83, author Barry Ernst dates this interview segment in Dallas as March, 1968. He says in his book he encountered both Mr. and Mrs. Higgins. I documented that Mr. Higgins died the following year on Oct. 25, 1969.

A reasonable person would find it reasonable that, after hearing the shots from her location at 417 E. Tenth and then seeing the body of a DPD officer lying shot down in the street literally yards away, the details would remain in Mrs. Higgins's mind 52 months later.:

From author Ernst's book, "The Girl on the Stairs" page 85, paperback edition:
Click on "paperback edition," click on "look inside" on upper left of Amazon.com web page at this link, search term, Higgins
https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Stairs-Missing-Witness-Assassination/dp/1455624314/ref=sr_1_1
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMrsDonaldHiggins.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 06:13:15 AM
Impossible to dispute facts. On page 83, author Barry Ernst dates this interview segment in Dallas as March, 1968. He says in his book he encountered both Mr. and Mrs. Higgins. I documented that Mr. Higgins died the following year on Oct. 25, 1969.

A reasonable person would find it reasonable that, after hearing the shots from her location at 417 E. Tenth and then seeing the body of a DPD officer lying shot down in the street literally yards away, the details would remain in Mrs. Higgins's mind 52 months later.:

From author Ernst's book, "The Girl on the Stairs" page 85, paperback edition:
Click on "paperback edition," click on "look inside" on upper left of Amazon.com web page at this link, search term, Higgins
https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Stairs-Missing-Witness-Assassination/dp/1455624314/ref=sr_1_1
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMrsDonaldHiggins.jpg)

Indeed, it's impossible to dispute facts. I looked at all the major channels and didn't see any timestamp for 1:06 but I did see that WFAA-TV's Jay Watson give a timestamp for 1:03. Now I know there may have been some obscure channel I couldn't find but Jay's announcement is pretty compelling.

Mrs. Higgins explained. “He said it just like that, ‘six minutes after one.’ And you know how you always do, you hear the time and you automatically check your own watch. So I just looked up at the clock on my television to verify the time and it said 1:06.
Ernest, Barry (2010). The Girl On The Stairs:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdfyFqYm/Its3minpast1pm.gif)

Btw And isn't it incredibly suspicious that the quoted time just happened to be 1:06 and since Barry lied to the Higgins, how reliable does that make him? Good luck with the moral dilemma that his honesty has on your belief system.

Mrs. Higgins got noticeably upset and asked if I was writing a book. I assured her I was in Dallas only to satisfy my own curiosity.
Ernest, Barry (2010). The Girl On The Stairs:


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 18, 2019, 06:33:34 AM
Grow up and admit there was a problem, lay it squarely on where it belongs, Dallas officials. The death certificate is an
official document, a record of the homicide death of an on duty, city police officer. It documents FOREVER, the time of injury
as 1:18 pm and the time of death at 1:15 pm. Bowley claims he arrived at 1:10 pm, Mrs. Higgins of 417 E. Tenth told Barry Ernst a short time later that she heard the shots, rushed outside and this coincided with a TV announcer saying the time was 1:06 pm. This is a useless exercise, you know it, give us all a break and stop posting because officials corrupted the official record! Why do almost no forum posters exhibit discernment about what is and is not likely to be resolved by posting, but instead clog this forum literally chock full of unreadable nonsense, unless they are not as nonsensically repeating the same lack of judgment and the intention is to make this forum brimming with unreadable nonsense?

'brimming with unreadable nonsense'
>>>Tell us how my post 'Take it up with Merriam-Webster, professor' qualifies as 'unreadable nonsense'

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 18, 2019, 06:37:50 AM
OK, for the less desperate, in the section where the precise details are filled in, the following quote makes it absolutely clear that Tippit was pronounced dead on arrival(DOA), which can only possibly mean that Tippit was dead before he arrived, Tippit may have died 1 second before he arrived but he was dead on arrival(DOA).

PERTINENT FACTS REGARDING DEATH

Deceased, a Dallas Police Officer was shot at 303 East Tenth Street was rushed to Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

(http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit14.jpg)

The doctors who attempted to bring Tippit back to life would have a good idea of how long these horrific injuries would take to kill a man.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/head.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8SMG08Q/tippit-shot-position.jpg)

JohnM
How do you know he was dead? He looks like he is doing a little thinking in the picture although if it is your picture he could be taking a nap, he looks tired? Use your head. So the guy is dead because his eyes are closed? That is not evidence-believe anything
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 18, 2019, 07:22:51 AM
How do you know he was dead?

I don't know but the last time I was shot from close range multiple times in the chest and once in the temple, I wasn't feeling too good.
But anyway the doctors at Methodist said he was dead and that's it.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 18, 2019, 02:45:11 PM
'brimming with unreadable nonsense'
>>>Tell us how my post 'Take it up with Merriam-Webster, professor' qualifies as 'unreadable nonsense'

Scully complaining about posters who fill this forum up with unreadable nonsense is like Willie Wonka lecturing on childhood tooth decay.   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 18, 2019, 03:10:11 PM
No, Bowley's watch has to be officially calibrated, just saying it was is pointless

When was the police dispatcher’s clock officially calibrated? Just saying it was is pointless.

Quote
Oops, that puts you in a bit of a pickle.

Not even a little bit. You’re the one making the baseless claim about the police dispatcher’s clock.

Quote
Plenty of time to be positively identified at the Rooming House and at the scene of the Tippit murder.

When were the witnesses’ identification abilities “officially calibrated”? When were the police lineup procedures “officially calibrated”?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 18, 2019, 03:11:57 PM
What time? Oops!

Notice how the “2” in “1:25” is offset from the rest of the numbers? Oops!
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 18, 2019, 03:31:08 PM
I don't know but the last time I was shot from close range multiple times in the chest and once in the temple, I wasn't feeling too good.
But anyway the doctors at Methodist said he was dead and that's it.

JohnM

I doubt that anybody disputes that JD Tippit died instantly ....... from the bullet that entered his brain at the right temple.   Some may argue that this was not an execution and pretend that Tippit was killed by a panic stricken fugitive.    One glance at the photos would reveal to a rookie detective that the man in the photos was deliberately executed.   

A fleeing fugitive would not have wanted to make sure that Tippit was dead....  A fugitive would merely have wanted to avoid arrest, and once the cop was down and unable to stop him, he would have ran from the scene.   But That's NOT what Tippit's executioner did.....   The photos clearly reveal that the killer wanted to be certain that JD Tippit was dead.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/head.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8SMG08Q/tippit-shot-position.jpg)

JohnM

Maybe Scoggins did hear the killer mutter...."Poor dumb cop".....   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 18, 2019, 06:52:31 PM
A fleeing fugitive would not have wanted to make sure that Tippit was dead....  A fugitive would merely have wanted to avoid arrest, and once the cop was down and unable to stop him, he would have ran from the scene.   But That's NOT what Tippit's executioner did.....   The photos clearly reveal that the killer wanted to be certain that JD Tippit was dead.
+1----- A fact that will forever remain ignored.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 18, 2019, 07:23:40 PM
+1----- A fact that will forever remain ignored.

That's the way it's been since day one.....    Even those who profess to be looking for answers ignore facts like this.   But that doesn't alter or eliminate the fact. And these photos are graphic proof that the killer was in fact an executioner..  He was not squeamish about killing a fellow human and a cop  ..... ( Which tells me he was probably a mobster, like Jack Ruby )   Benavides description of Tippit's executioner does match Whitey Bulger ......and Bulger was a cold blooded killer whose mob name was " The Rifleman" .    I've often wondered if acquired that moniker after the murder of JFK?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 18, 2019, 07:24:13 PM
I doubt that anybody disputes that JD Tippit died instantly ....... from the bullet that entered his brain at the right temple.   Some may argue that this was not an execution and pretend that Tippit was killed by a panic stricken fugitive.    One glance at the photos would reveal to a rookie detective that the man in the photos was deliberately executed.   

A fleeing fugitive would not have wanted to make sure that Tippit was dead....  A fugitive would merely have wanted to avoid arrest, and once the cop was down and unable to stop him, he would have ran from the scene.   But That's NOT what Tippit's executioner did.....   The photos clearly reveal that the killer wanted to be certain that JD Tippit was dead.


You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality.  Maybe Oswald didn't want to get shot in the back by a wounded police officer as he left.  So he finished him off.  There was no one else around to arrest him.  It only took an instant to finish him off.  No great loss of time in fleeing from the scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 18, 2019, 07:59:47 PM
You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality.  Maybe Oswald didn't want to get shot in the back by a wounded police officer as he left.  So he finished him off.  There was no one else around to arrest him.  It only took an instant to finish him off.  No great loss of time in fleeing from the scene.

In that case he should have taken Tippit's revolver with him to make sure that a bystander couldn't pick it up and shoot at him.

Just putting myself in Oswald's shoes...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 18, 2019, 08:24:06 PM
You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality.  Maybe Oswald didn't want to get shot in the back by a wounded police officer as he left.  So he finished him off.  There was no one else around to arrest him.  It only took an instant to finish him off.  No great loss of time in fleeing from the scene.

Wake up Mr "Smith"..... Most of us have been onto you since you first started posting in this group.    Anytime solid facts appear, that refute the official tale, you jump in and attack the messenger.   Which rule is that in your rule book?.....   

Rule#?...  If you can't refute the facts, then attack the messenger and try to make he or she appear to be a "kook".....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 18, 2019, 08:29:52 PM
In that case he should have taken Tippit's revolver with him to make sure that a bystander couldn't pick it up and shoot at him.

Just putting myself in Oswald's shoes...

That's exactly what Ted Callaway did.....  He grabbed Tippit's revolver and said to Scoggins....." You saw which way he went, let's go after him"   ...Funny thing though, Callaway claimed that he saw the man fleeing east on 10th near the car lot where he sold used cars.  So If he saw the man why did he say that to Scoggins.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 18, 2019, 08:32:08 PM
You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality.  Maybe Oswald didn't want to get shot in the back by a wounded police officer as he left.  So he finished him off.  There was no one else around to arrest him.  It only took an instant to finish him off.  No great loss of time in fleeing from the scene.

You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality

Did you look in a mirror, Smith? 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 18, 2019, 08:41:37 PM
In that case he should have taken Tippit's revolver with him to make sure that a bystander couldn't pick it up and shoot at him.

Just putting myself in Oswald's shoes...

My guess is that he was just trying to make sure that Tippit was not going to recover and identify him later on. Picking up Tippit’s gun would have potentially incriminated him (in case he got caught with it, or left a finger print on it).
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 18, 2019, 08:48:52 PM
Wake up Mr "Smith"..... Most of us have been onto you since you first started posting in this group.    Anytime solid facts appear, that refute the official tale, you jump in and attack the messenger.   Which rule is that in your rule book?.....   

Rule#?...  If you can't refute the facts, then attack the messenger and try to make he or she appear to be a "kook".....

I didn't refute any "facts" because none are present in your claim that Oswald would not have finished Tippit off.  Instead you substituted your own opinion of what Oswald would have done in that situation to reach a desired outcome.  I merely provided one possible reason that Oswald finished Tippit off.  I have no idea if that is why he did so because only Oswald could ever know for sure (a point you fail to realize) but it is plausible and counters your silly claim that Oswald would not have paused for even a moment to finish Tippit off.  Thereby, somehow rendering him innocent of this crime despite the testimony of several witnesses that place him at the scene with a pistol.  In addition, there is nothing that I or anyone else needs to do to make you appear to be a kook.  You are adept at that yourself.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 18, 2019, 11:23:58 PM
I didn't refute any "facts" because none are present in your claim that Oswald would not have finished Tippit off.  Instead you substituted your own opinion of what Oswald would have done in that situation to reach a desired outcome.  I merely provided one possible reason that Oswald finished Tippit off.  I have no idea if that is why he did so because only Oswald could ever know for sure (a point you fail to realize) but it is plausible and counters your silly claim that Oswald would not have paused for even a moment to finish Tippit off.  Thereby, somehow rendering him innocent of this crime despite the testimony of several witnesses that place him at the scene with a pistol.  In addition, there is nothing that I or anyone else needs to do to make you appear to be a kook.  You are adept at that yourself.

Mr "Smith",   Please explain how "Oswald"   unloaded a Smith & Wesson revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME  as he walked away .....  Oh and perhaps you can find someone who has tried to hit a 10 inch pie tin at 20 feet with one of those old S&W 38 caliber revolvers with the barrel sawed off....   I'll bet you can't find a single person who can hit the pie tin more than once with a full load of six cartridges of 38 special cartridges.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 18, 2019, 11:39:56 PM
You are forever confusing your baseless subjective opinion with reality

Did you look in a mirror, Smith?

No, but I looked down a rabbit hole once and guess who I saw?  Someone named Roger.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 19, 2019, 01:56:14 AM
My guess is that he was just trying to make sure that Tippit was not going to recover and identify him later on. Picking up Tippit’s gun would have potentially incriminated him (in case he got caught with it, or left a finger print on it).

Another good point... in addition, having two weapons would give him more firepower if spotted by the cops.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 19, 2019, 02:22:32 AM
Someone named Roger.

After Roger was humiliated, I reckon that type of personality would have have spitefully created a dozen more aliases. Just saying!

JohnM

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 04:16:06 AM
There must have been a crapload of prints on those shell casings when Oswald loaded the gun, right? So where are they?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 04:27:26 AM
   Maybe Oswald didn't want to get shot in the back by a wounded police officer as he left.  So he finished him off.  There was no one else around to arrest him.  It only took an instant to finish him off.  No great loss of time in fleeing from the scene.
Incredibly weak conjecture. Maybe this and perhaps that. Troll on ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 04:50:42 AM
Quote
I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. .................. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side
 I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm
If accurate ...this statement demonstrates that the killer went entirely out of his way to execute the cop who was already down and apparently sufficiently damaged. 
Who were these men that were walking on the sidewalk?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 19, 2019, 06:58:21 AM
Scully complaining about posters who fill this forum up with unreadable nonsense is like Willie Wonka lecturing on childhood tooth decay.

Good one
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 19, 2019, 01:24:46 PM
Incredibly weak conjecture. Maybe this and perhaps that. Troll on ::)

LOL.  What a tool.  This is conjecture but Walt's subjective opinion as to what Oswald would or wouldn't have done is not? 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 19, 2019, 01:47:42 PM
After Roger was humiliated, I reckon that type of personality would have have spitefully created a dozen more aliases. Just saying!

Says “John Mytton” to “Richard Smith”.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 19, 2019, 01:50:35 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm
If accurate ...this statement demonstrates that the killer went entirely out of his way to execute the cop who was already down and apparently sufficiently damaged. 
Who were these men that were walking on the sidewalk?

There’s no good reason to believe that Jack Tatum was actually there.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 02:52:57 PM
There’s no good reason to believe that Jack Tatum was actually there.
Rob Caprio had something about that but his posts are gone. I tried to revive something here...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2294.new.html#new
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 04:09:11 PM
My guess is that he was just trying to make sure that Tippit was not going to recover and identify him later on. Picking up Tippit’s gun would have potentially incriminated him (in case he got caught with it, or left a finger print on it).


Well at least you recognize that the shooting of Tippit was an EXECUTION.......  I believe it was premeditated.   It does not appear to be the act of a fleeing fugitive.

There can be no doubt that the bullet in the brain was intended to ensure that Tippit was dead.....  A fleeing fugitive probably wouldn't have wasted time in clearing out of the area as soon as Tippit was down.   The FACT is the killer did NOT hastily dash away from the scene, indicates that he intended to execute Tippit.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 04:12:26 PM
Mr "Smith",   Please explain how "Oswald"   unloaded a Smith & Wesson revolver ONE SHELL AT A TIME  as he walked away .....  Oh and perhaps you can find someone who has tried to hit a 10 inch pie tin at 20 feet with one of those old S&W 38 caliber revolvers with the barrel sawed off....   I'll bet you can't find a single person who can hit the pie tin more than once with a full load of six cartridges of 38 special cartridges.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can extract the cartridge cases and lead in more.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder.
Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired--
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the
cartridge you are loading in there for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber.
Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham extracted the five expended cartridge eases merely by one push of the ejector rod.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yon won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge ease later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen if you ejected
457
731-219 O--64--vol.III---30


these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine.
Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues.
Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular bullets?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected were .38 Special cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were.
Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special bullets in this revolver?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 19, 2019, 04:31:56 PM

Well at least you recognize that the shooting of Tippit was an EXECUTION.......  I believe it was premeditated.   It does not appear to be the act of a fleeing fugitive.

There can be no doubt that the bullet in the brain was intended to ensure that Tippit was dead.....  A fleeing fugitive probably wouldn't have wasted time in clearing out of the area as soon as Tippit was down.   The FACT is the killer did NOT hastily dash away from the scene, indicates that he intended to execute Tippit.

Again, what you choose to "believe" is not evidence of anything.  Oswald certainly did momentarily pause to execute Tippit.  Only he knows why but your speculation to the contrary there is a plausible reason for this action.  Maybe he didn't want to risk getting shot by a wounded police officer.  It is possible to be shot multiple times and still be alive and functional.  There are numerous examples.  Oswald is making split second decisions under enormous stress.   Whether it is deemed unnecessary or not to finish Tippit off casts no doubt whatsoever on the killer being Oswald as you have claimed.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 04:35:03 PM
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can extract the cartridge cases and lead in more.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder.
Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired--
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the
cartridge you are loading in there for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber.
Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham extracted the five expended cartridge eases merely by one push of the ejector rod.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yon won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge ease later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen if you ejected
457
731-219 O--64--vol.III---30


these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine.
Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues.
Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular bullets?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected were .38 Special cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were.
Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special bullets in this revolver?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning.

Mr "Smith" I posted FBI agent Cortland Cunningham's testimony in which he testified that the spent shells are "VERY DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT"  from the S&W revolver that was allegedly used to kill Tippit.   Since I did this favor for you, perhaps you can return the favor by posting the testimony of the witnesses who watched Tippit's killer as he removed one shell at a time as he walked away from the scene.     Maybe I've misread their statements and in which they said the killer easily removed the spent shells  ONE SHELL AT A TIME.    It should be apparent to you that if the witnesses are correct ( that the killer had no trouble removing the spent shells ONE AT A TIME ) then he must NOT have been using the same revolver that FBI agent Cunningham used to demonstrate that all of the spent shells are removed at once from the S&W revolver and they are VERY DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 04:54:19 PM
Scully complaining about posters who fill this forum up with unreadable nonsense is like Willie Wonka lecturing on childhood tooth decay.

Your criticism of my posts is inaccurate. Stop misleading readers or actually support your criticism of my posts.
Are you actually claiming the details I regularly post on this forum are not among the most original, accurate, and informative of any others that have been posted in these threads?

I am accustomed to and have learned to expect attempts to discredit my presentations and the substance of them, but I draw the line in reaction to others deliberately deceiving readers about the quality and informative nature of the research details I regularly post.

Could your criticism of my posts have anything to do with my proving that witness Ms. Davis lied to the DPD and to the WC about her age and my pointing out witness Whaley changed his own age sometime between the age on his 1942 WWII military draft registration (coinciding with the birth date recorded in his family's bible, among numerous other government and family genealogy records) vs. his age at the time of his late 1965 death, (moving his age to three years earlier and prior to the date of the marriage of his parents) and that there is no known record of the Navy Cross award he told the press he earned in combat associated with the Iwo Jima invasion? Or further, is your criticism at all in reaction to my posting definitive proof I posted on this forum that Mr. Whaley's own oldest child, son and namesake, William W. Whaley, Jr. s not included in Mr. Whaley's own obit, but is listed in the obit of a man other than Whaley as his son, and in Whaley Jr.'s own obit as the son of the widow of that other man?

Richard, I offer posted, original research details of the kind that are exactly what a forum like this is in dire need of, if it exists to inform readers. What do you actually contribute in your posts on this forum that you expect informs readers of verifiable details they are reading here for the first time, anywhere?

This thread is now 53 pages. Anyone with any background knowledge of the shooting of Tippit vs the timing of Oswald's movements in the 40 minutes before that shooting, presumably dependent on the testimony of just two witnesses, Mr. Whaley and Mrs. Roberts, would have the sense not to expect to resolve the issue of whether Oswald could actually arrive in time to shoot Tippit while he still had the ability to stand.

IOW, it is obvious to a reasonable person with knowledge of the circumstances of the Tippit shooting not to initiate a thread such as this one because of the dubious quality of the backgrounds of witnesses Whaley, Roberts, and Virginia Davis for reasons my original research about Whaley and Davis, as well as both the WC testimony of Mrs. Roberts's employer Gladys Johnson and that of Mrs. Roberts' sister, Bertha Bogle make obvious, and due to the inability of Mrs. Roberts to accurately fix the time police first arrived at 1026 N. Beckley (inaccurate by at least 45 minutes).

Even more obvious justification not to initiate a thread such as this one with the expectation of resolving anything is the problem displayed on the Tippit death certificate, time of injury @ 1:18 pm, time of death, 3 minutes before that, and the handling by investigators of the alleged murder weapon and both live shells and empty shell husks allegedly associated with it, but here we are, again.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitDeathCertificate.jpg)

Richard, you are attempting to marginalize my posts on this forum, and by extension, me personally. I am results oriented, and I have many, related to this case, to point to. Please inform readers of some of your informative research results.
Can you point to any example of a book author crediting you or your research with your name (whatever it actually is...)?
In just one example, of several, my original research directly caused two revised editions of a recent book as well as  compelling a sworn deposition, in 2014, of the most important and controversial witness testifying in the 1965  murder trial
(the murder of Mary Meyer) of Ray Crump.

Additionally, I presented the fact Priscilla MacMillan's first cousin, David C Davenport was a CIA asset who directed his friend who, at the time was married to the aunt of senior POTUS advisor, Clark M. Clifford, to be driver and escort of Priscilla and Marina in late 1964. This discovery was later supported by the publication of this photo in 2013, a photo provided to the press by Priscilla, herself! I also discovered that Clark M. Clifford's first cousin and step daughter of the man pictured below filed a lawsuit against both the man in this picture and his friend, Davenport, in response to their commitment of her against her will, to a State of New Mexico mental hospital, just months after those two men "protected" Priscilla and Marina from press availability and inquiry immediately after the publication of the Warren Report.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293
....
(https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/UuJA-4OVzv28nAJ90cPS2F04I-Q=/800x632/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/AO5DI73QWP3ZLDK6IREGY55SIM.jpg)
Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (Josh Reynolds/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)

I achieve extraordinary results because I have a track record of ability to predetermine what is a waste of time and what likely is not.
This forum is brimming with useless, very long threads that do not inform readers or resolve anything. Examples (just three of many) are this thread, and both the "prayer woman," and the thread titled, "Those Front Steps".
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 19, 2019, 05:05:56 PM
Mr "Smith" I posted FBI agent Cortland Cunningham's testimony in which he testified that the spent shells are "VERY DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT"  from the S&W revolver that was allegedly used to kill Tippit.   Since I did this favor for you, perhaps you can return the favor by posting the testimony of the witnesses who watched Tippit's killer as he removed one shell at a time as he walked away from the scene.     Maybe I've misread their statements and in which they said the killer easily removed the spent shells  ONE SHELL AT A TIME.    It should be apparent to you that if the witnesses are correct ( that the killer had no trouble removing the spent shells ONE AT A TIME ) then he must NOT have been using the same revolver that FBI agent Cunningham used to demonstrate that all of the spent shells are removed at once from the S&W revolver and they are VERY DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT.

Look this is simple.  If a witness indicates that they saw OSWALD do something, that is not somehow evidence that it was not Oswald.  You appear to be using Alice-in-Wonderland logic again.  Whether it is "difficult" or not to extract the shells is meaningless in that context.  But to play along did a witness indicate that Oswald "easily" or "with no trouble" removed the shells as you have claimed?  If so, how did they make that assessment?  From what you have posted here you seem to be conflating the fact that Oswald removed the shells one at a time with that somehow being easy.   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Organ on November 19, 2019, 05:14:16 PM
There must have been a crapload of prints on those shell casings when Oswald loaded the gun, right? So where are they?

(https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/d/d5/Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg/aid1480345-v4-728px-Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg)

He might have held the shells by the rim. Even if he didn't, shells don't have much surface area for a print. Neither does a trigger. Police dust such small areas in the off-chance there might be a print. It's possible but unlikely.

Also fingers aren't always casting off prints; the pores could be clean is they touch something absorbent and it will be awhile before sweat is present again.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 05:17:23 PM
Look this is simple.  If a witness indicates that they saw OSWALD do something, that is not somehow evidence that it was not Oswald.  You appear to be using Alice-in-Wonderland logic again.  Whether it is "difficult" or not to extract the shells is meaningless in that context.  But to play along did a witness indicate that Oswald "easily" or "with no trouble" removed the shells as you have claimed?  If so, how did they make that assessment?  From what you have posted here you seem to be conflating the fact that Oswald removed the shells one at a time with that somehow being easy.

If you had returned the favor by posting the witnesses testimony....Then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....Because the witnesses, Starting with Dom Benavides DESCRIBE the ease with which the killer removes the spent shells ONE AT A TIME     ONE - AT- A- TIME  as he walks away from the scene.

Cortland Cunningham testified that the spent shells from the S&W revolver at removed ALL AT THE SAME TIME   and they are VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 05:21:43 PM
(https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/d/d5/Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg/aid1480345-v4-728px-Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg)

He might have held the shells by the rim. Even if he didn't, shells don't have much surface area for a print. Neither does a trigger. Police dust such small areas in the off-chance there might be a print. It's possible but unlikely.

Also fingers aren't always casting off prints; the pores could be clean is they touch something absorbent and it will be awhile before sweat is present again.

Thanks for posting the picture of a revolver with a swing out cylinder ( like a S&W ) ..... It will give those who are unfamiliar with the S&W some idea about how the shells are loaded and unloaded.     ( Although the extractor mechanism isn't illustrated)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 06:15:03 PM
Are you actually claiming the details I regularly post on this forum are not among the most original, accurate, and informative of any others that have been posted in these threads?
Tommy...don't break your arm patting yourself on the back there :-\
Yeah...Tippit was dead 3 minutes before he was shot.
 
 (http://static.fanpage.it/socialmediafanpage/wp-content/uploads/gallery/john-kennedy-trent-anni-dopo-l-omicidio/small_131122-103011_to221113est_0503-800x540.jpg)

 
 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 19, 2019, 06:18:48 PM
Look this is simple.  If a witness indicates that they saw OSWALD do something, that is not somehow evidence that it was not Oswald.

You know what else is simple?

Just because a witness was coerced at an unfair lineup to identify Oswald, that does not mean that s/he actually saw Oswald.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 07:05:12 PM
Look this is simple.  If a witness indicates that they saw OSWALD do something, that is not somehow evidence that it was not Oswald.  You appear to be using Alice-in-Wonderland logic again.  Whether it is "difficult" or not to extract the shells is meaningless in that context.  But to play along did a witness indicate that Oswald "easily" or "with no trouble" removed the shells as you have claimed?  If so, how did they make that assessment?  From what you have posted here you seem to be conflating the fact that Oswald removed the shells one at a time with that somehow being easy.

Look this is simple.

Yes it is...That's the reason even you should be able to understand that the killer walked away while removing ONE-SPENT- SHELL -AT- A - TIME  .  (We can know that this is true because the shells were found widely scattered )  But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.  It's simple...  The shells are removed all in one stroke of the extractor of the S&W and all spent shells either fall to the ground in a small area or into the hand of the user.           
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 19, 2019, 07:21:05 PM
If you had returned the favor by posting the witnesses testimony....Then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....Because the witnesses, Starting with Dom Benavides DESCRIBE the ease with which the killer removes the spent shells ONE AT A TIME     ONE - AT- A- TIME  as he walks away from the scene.

Cortland Cunningham testified that the spent shells from the S&W revolver at removed ALL AT THE SAME TIME   and they are VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE.

Please cite where Benavides describes the "ease" with which the killer removes the spent shells.  I skimmed his testimony and don't see him describing anything about whether it appeared easy or difficult to remove the shells.  He just says he saw Oswald remove the shells (without reference to whether that appeared easy) and throw them.   How does removing them ONE AT A TIME (even in all caps) equate to it meaning that it was easy?


Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 19, 2019, 07:35:22 PM
Please cite where Benavides describes the "ease" with which the killer removes the spent shells.  I skimmed his testimony and don't see him describing anything about whether it appeared easy or difficult to remove the shells.  He just says he saw Oswald remove the shells (without reference to whether that appeared easy) and throw them.   How does removing them ONE AT A TIME (even in all caps) equate to it meaning that it was easy?


Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

How does removing them ONE AT A TIME (even in all caps) equate to it meaning that it was easy?

Well it sure as hell wasn't difficult ....Benavides said nothing about the killer struggling to remove a spent shell.....And if you'd extract your head perhaps you could see that Cunningham said that ALL THE SHELLS ARE REMOVED AT ONCE from the S&W revolver.   ...And Cunningham said that they are very difficult to remove.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 19, 2019, 08:09:06 PM
Look this is simple.

Yes it is...That's the reason even you should be able to understand that the killer walked away while removing ONE-SPENT- SHELL -AT- A - TIME  .  (We can know that this is true because the shells were found widely scattered )  But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.  It's simple...  The shells are removed all in one stroke of the extractor of the S&W and all spent shells either fall to the ground in a small area or into the hand of the user.           

But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.

Actually those are your words, not Cunningham's. Here is what he said:

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.


1. Eisenberg asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells. [There are other ways that also work.]

2. Cunningham did say that these are very difficult, by the way, to extract. [Using Cunningham's method, the reason that he says it is very difficult [requires extraordinary force] is: "due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And you get "a little ballooning"...]

3. Another (perfectly reasonable, given the circumstances) method that LHO might have chosen to use is to extract them one at a time. This would be particularly indicative of someone who had had limited experience/instruction with a revolver. Remember that LHO's pistol training in the USMC was with their standard issue Colt .45 automatic pistol.

I used to own a S&W .38 special revolver. So I fully understand how it works. And it was not unusual for me to extract the spent shells one at a time (especially when I first started using it).

And your stated conclusion that it had to be a different type of gun because of the one-at-a-time-extraction allegation just doesn't make any sense.


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 08:21:25 PM
Please cite where Benavides describes the "ease" with which the killer removes the spent shells. 
Oh Oh....a booger.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 08:31:17 PM
I used to own a S&W .38 special revolver. So I fully understand how it works. And it was not unusual for me to extract the spent shells one at a time (especially when I first started using it). And your stated conclusion that it had to be a different type of gun because of the one-at-a-time-extraction allegation just doesn't make any sense.
Good grief! Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies-----


 

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 08:38:05 PM
You know what else is simple?
Simply put?
Police...."Oswald was the guy you saw shoot the cop...did you see the guy shoot the cop?"
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 08:52:16 PM
(https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/d/d5/Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg/aid1480345-v4-728px-Shoot-a-Revolver-Step-4-Version-2.jpg)

He might have held the shells by the rim. Even if he didn't, shells don't have much surface area for a print. Neither does a trigger. Police dust such small areas in the off-chance there might be a print. It's possible but unlikely.

Also fingers aren't always casting off prints; the pores could be clean is they touch something absorbent and it will be awhile before sweat is present again.

Possibly, but not probably, IMO. LHO had to take the ammo out of the box and insert the bullets into the gun which surely would have left at least 1 print on 1 of the shells. The problem here is that there is no way to link hulls with the slugs.

I also don't get why there were no prints on the handgun. Shouldn't LHO's lack of prints in the SN on the MC and the handgun give you pause? Legally, isn't that too few prints to implicate the shooter and doesn't it make LHO the patsy instead?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 19, 2019, 08:52:51 PM
Good grief! Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies-----


 ???

Oswald used this gun?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 19, 2019, 08:56:03 PM
Good grief! Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies-----


This video doesn’t address the 11/22/63 situation that LHO had. It doesn’t include spent shells, which expand and are held in place by friction. And it especially doesn’t include the mismatched .38 special ammunition spent shells (for the re-chambered gun). Which was testified, by an expert, as being “very difficult” to eject by that method.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Richard Smith on November 19, 2019, 09:02:49 PM
How does removing them ONE AT A TIME (even in all caps) equate to it meaning that it was easy?

Well it sure as hell wasn't difficult ....Benavides said nothing about the killer struggling to remove a spent shell.....And if you'd extract your head perhaps you could see that Cunningham said that ALL THE SHELLS ARE REMOVED AT ONCE from the S&W revolver.   ...And Cunningham said that they are very difficult to remove.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.

You are running around in circles.  Here is what you claimed:   "Because the witnesses, Starting with Dom Benavides DESCRIBE the ease with which the killer removes the spent shells ONE AT A TIME."

Not saying anything about whether it appeared difficult to remove the shells doesn't mean that Benavides DESCRIBED Oswald "easily" removing the shells as you have falsely claimed.  It just means that Benavides made no observation whatsoever on that point.  All he said was that he saw Oswald remove and throw them after murdering Tippit.   Who again?  Oswald.     
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 19, 2019, 09:23:06 PM
All he said was that he saw Oswald remove and throw them after murdering Tippit.   Who again?  Oswald.   

Mr. BENAVIDES - Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me---I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.
Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot.
I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.
Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 19, 2019, 09:29:43 PM
You know what else is simple?

Just because a witness was coerced at an unfair lineup to identify Oswald, that does not mean that s/he actually saw Oswald.

Was he/she also 'coerced' to almost faint?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 19, 2019, 10:05:54 PM
Was he/she also 'coerced' to almost faint?

Thanks for your always relevant input.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Organ on November 19, 2019, 10:13:01 PM
Possibly, but not probably, IMO. LHO had to take the ammo out of the box and insert the bullets into the gun which surely would have left at least 1 print on 1 of the shells.

That's a probability argument. Touching a small area like the trigger or a shell probably would leave a smudged print, if any. The finger leaving off the trigger would "wipe" any print there, as would pushing a shell forward between fingers into a revolver. There's also the factor that fingers don't constantly and consistently cast off prints anyway. Sometimes the fingers are dry due to touching something absorbent or purposely wiping or washing them.

Police seldom see latent fingerprints on a spent shell due to heat vaporizing the oils. We went over on the Forum a while ago the new technique that would be able to detect "micro-etched fingerprints", prints that aren't visible but have left a thin residual mark due to heat. But some studies intentionally placed strong fingerprints on the hulls before firing, which improved the detection results. Still on the off-chance there might be some prints on the hulls in the JFK case, then they'll hopefully be tested when the science is truly ready.

Quote
The problem here is that there is no way to link hulls with the slugs.

I also don't get why there were no prints on the handgun. Shouldn't LHO's lack of prints in the SN on the MC and the handgun give you pause?

Some materials resist printing. I think the rifle's wood stock was like that, in that it was absorbent. The triggerguard housing was smooth metal, almost perfect for a print to be deposited. Without getting into the arguments for-and-against, some believe Oswald's prints were photographed on the housing.

Quote

Legally, isn't that too few prints to implicate the shooter and doesn't it make LHO the patsy instead?


Fingerprint evidence is always highlighted on TV shows but real-life court cases usually don't have much, if any, in the way of fingerprint evidence. Often the weapon is wiped down or the prints are smudged or the surface of the weapon isn't receptive to prints. Or the killer wore gloves. The Golden State Killer apparently left no prints, only one trace of DNA.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 10:18:17 PM
???

Oswald used this gun?
Read it one more time s-l-o-w-ley .......  Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies----- and quit digging your backside :D
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 19, 2019, 10:41:32 PM
Says “John Mytton” to “Richard Smith”.

Indeed.

I wonder where "Vincent Baxter" went.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 01:04:13 AM
But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.

Actually those are your words, not Cunningham's. Here is what he said:

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.


1. Eisenberg asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells. [There are other ways that also work.]

2. Cunningham did say that these are very difficult, by the way, to extract. [Using Cunningham's method, the reason that he says it is very difficult [requires extraordinary force] is: "due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And you get "a little ballooning"...]

3. Another (perfectly reasonable, given the circumstances) method that LHO might have chosen to use is to extract them one at a time. This would be particularly indicative of someone who had had limited experience/instruction with a revolver. Remember that LHO's pistol training in the USMC was with their standard issue Colt .45 automatic pistol.

I used to own a S&W .38 special revolver. So I fully understand how it works. And it was not unusual for me to extract the spent shells one at a time (especially when I first started using it).

And your stated conclusion that it had to be a different type of gun because of the one-at-a-time-extraction allegation just doesn't make any sense.


Oh, I'm so happy that you attempted to rebut and discredit my observations.....

But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.

Actually those are your words, not Cunningham's. Here is what he said:

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.


Yes, those are my words ....But they could be Cunningham's because they are simply a different way of stating that the S&W revolver is NOT UNLOADED ONE SPENT SHELL AT A TIME.   IOW..I have NOT changed the meaning of Cunningham's words.   He said that the spent shells in the chambers of the cylinder of the S&W  are all ejected at the same time by operating the ejector rod.  AND Cunningham said that the spent shells are very difficult to remove from the S&W in evidence.

1. Eisenberg asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells. [There are other ways that also work.]


Now it is YOU who is reading something into Eisenberg's question that was never implied....  Eisenberg simply asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells....  And yes there are other ways of removing spent shells from a S&W.... but all of them are not as simple as using the shell extractor. and the other methods require tools....  Tippit's killer was not reported to have been using any tool to remove the spent shells.

3. Another (perfectly reasonable, given the circumstances) method that LHO might have chosen to use is to extract them one at a time. This would be particularly indicative of someone who had had limited experience/instruction with a revolver. Remember that LHO's pistol training in the USMC was with their standard issue Colt .45 automatic pistol.


This silly idea is not reasonable ....Primarily because on on hand you want attribute to Lee Oswald experience that only an expert with a particular gun could have....  Namely the deadly accuracy that the gunman exhibited when he shot Tippit.....While on the other hand you want to suggest that Lee Oswald had "limited experience"
with a revolver.   And citing his Marine Corp training with a Colt 45 Automatic is totally irrelevant.

I used to own a S&W .38 special revolver. So I fully understand how it works. And it was not unusual for me to extract the spent shells one at a time (especially when I first started using it).

The S&W 38 special is NOT the same gun being discussed by Cunningham..... The 38 S&W revolver in question was called A Victory Model....And the chambers were bigger diameter than the .38 Special ..... This is the reason the .38 Special ammo BALLOONED  in the chamber and made the spent .38 special cartridges "Very difficult to remove"
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 01:16:00 AM
Read it one more time s-l-o-w-ley .......  Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies----- and quit digging your backside :D

It's finally becoming clear to the LNer's that Tippit's killer was NOT using a S&W .....And therefore Mr Organ posted a simple ( and totally inaccurate) picture of a S&W revolver.   The picture has no shell extractor.....   Simple minds like simple pictures.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 01:40:37 AM
Mr. BENAVIDES - Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me---I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.
Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot.
I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could. At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.
Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 01:51:46 AM
There must have been a crapload of prints on those shell casings when Oswald loaded the gun, right? So where are they?

Up until recently the chances of taking prints off a spent shell was practically impossible but the bullet recovered from within the rifle could have a print that is if Oswald wasn't wearing gloves or he didn't smear the print.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5421537/Scientists-lift-fingerprints-fired-bullets.html

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/03/fingerprints.bullets

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 20, 2019, 02:13:35 AM
Read it one more time s-l-o-w-ley .......  Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies----- and quit digging your backside :D

Sticks & stones. And that whoosh you just heard is my sarcasm zooming over your head.

In the meantime, tell us us why you would show a video of a factory S&M rather than a reconstuction demo of the Smith, Wesson (.. and Lee) weapon, along with all its attendant quirks as described by Cunningham.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 04:51:10 AM
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.


That’s not a valid positive ID, but nice try.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 20, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
Up until recently the chances of taking prints off a spent shell was practically impossible but the bullet recovered from within the rifle could have a print that is if Oswald wasn't wearing gloves or he didn't smear the print.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5421537/Scientists-lift-fingerprints-fired-bullets.html

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/03/fingerprints.bullets

JohnM

At least now we know where you get your "expertise" from....

Btw, don't they have newspapers in Australia anymore or did you perhaps get these links from your mate Vincent?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 12:26:57 PM
That’s not a valid positive ID, but nice try.

A valid positive ID. Hilarious.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
A valid positive ID. Hilarious.

It resembled the pictures he had seen, so he “figured” it was Oswald. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
It resembled the pictures he had seen, so he “figured” it was Oswald. Hilarious.

Yeah a half dozen people were all wrong and for some reason they all wanted to send Oswald to the electric chair and kill an innocent man, geez what a shitty country you live in where you can't even trust your fellow man or neighbour. Good luck with that!

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 20, 2019, 03:46:01 PM

Oh, I'm so happy that you attempted to rebut and discredit my observations.....

But Cortland Cunningham said that that is NOT the way the spent shells are removed from the 38 caliber Smith & Wesson.

Actually those are your words, not Cunningham's. Here is what he said:

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been re-chambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.


Yes, those are my words ....But they could be Cunningham's because they are simply a different way of stating that the S&W revolver is NOT UNLOADED ONE SPENT SHELL AT A TIME.   IOW..I have NOT changed the meaning of Cunningham's words.   He said that the spent shells in the chambers of the cylinder of the S&W  are all ejected at the same time by operating the ejector rod.  AND Cunningham said that the spent shells are very difficult to remove from the S&W in evidence.

1. Eisenberg asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells. [There are other ways that also work.]


Now it is YOU who is reading something into Eisenberg's question that was never implied....  Eisenberg simply asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells....  And yes there are other ways of removing spent shells from a S&W.... but all of them are not as simple as using the shell extractor. and the other methods require tools....  Tippit's killer was not reported to have been using any tool to remove the spent shells.

3. Another (perfectly reasonable, given the circumstances) method that LHO might have chosen to use is to extract them one at a time. This would be particularly indicative of someone who had had limited experience/instruction with a revolver. Remember that LHO's pistol training in the USMC was with their standard issue Colt .45 automatic pistol.


This silly idea is not reasonable ....Primarily because on on hand you want attribute to Lee Oswald experience that only an expert with a particular gun could have....  Namely the deadly accuracy that the gunman exhibited when he shot Tippit.....While on the other hand you want to suggest that Lee Oswald had "limited experience"
with a revolver.   And citing his Marine Corp training with a Colt 45 Automatic is totally irrelevant.

I used to own a S&W .38 special revolver. So I fully understand how it works. And it was not unusual for me to extract the spent shells one at a time (especially when I first started using it).

The S&W 38 special is NOT the same gun being discussed by Cunningham..... The 38 S&W revolver in question was called A Victory Model....And the chambers were bigger diameter than the .38 Special ..... This is the reason the .38 Special ammo BALLOONED  in the chamber and made the spent .38 special cartridges "Very difficult to remove"


Oh, I'm so happy that you attempted to rebut and discredit my observations.....

Yes, I have noticed that a few of you have trouble getting replies. So it probably does make you happy. The reason I typically ignore is because you don't appear to listen to reason. You make up your own story and refuse to budge from it regardless of how ridiculous it is shown to be.

Yes, those are my words ....But they could be Cunningham's because they are simply a different way of stating that the S&W revolver is NOT UNLOADED ONE SPENT SHELL AT A TIME.   IOW..I have NOT changed the meaning of Cunningham's words.   He said that the spent shells in the chambers of the cylinder of the S&W  are all ejected at the same time by operating the ejector rod... 

Cunningham demonstrated that particular method. He didn't say any of those things. That is your interpretation of his demonstration. As I said earlier, there are other methods that work just fine.


Now it is YOU who is reading something into Eisenberg's question that was never implied....  Eisenberg simply asked Cunningham how he would eject the five expended shells....  And yes there are other ways of removing spent shells from a S&W.... but all of them are not as simple as using the shell extractor. and the other methods require tools....  Tippit's killer was not reported to have been using any tool to remove the spent shells.


I didn't claim that Cunningham said something that he didn't, you did that. What tools would be required? Two fingers always worked just fine for me.


This silly idea is not reasonable ....Primarily because on on hand you want attribute to Lee Oswald experience that only an expert with a particular gun could have....  Namely the deadly accuracy that the gunman exhibited when he shot Tippit.....While on the other hand you want to suggest that Lee Oswald had "limited experience"
with a revolver.   And citing his Marine Corp training with a Colt 45 Automatic is totally irrelevant.


Shooting the two types of handguns is similar regardless of whether it is an automatic or a revolver. And LHO was reported to be quite good at shooting a pistol by his pistol instructor in the USMC. This explains the "deadly accuracy" part. However, reloading the two different types of handguns is quite different. LHO was trained to operate the Colt .45 automatic, and I expect he would have been able to reload one of those very rapidly. But I haven't seen any evidence that LHO received any training that included reloading a revolver (he didn't even have the correct ammunition). Yes, someone who trained with a revolver would most likely use the method demonstrated by Cunningham. And repetition (in training) would enable someone to become quite proficient at it. Personally, I used to have a device that held six bullets in the same circular pattern as the revolver receiver pattern, it had a small knurled knob that twisted to release the bullets into the revolver (once they all were inserted). This allowed reloading it much faster than inserting the bullets one at a time. So, you see citing his training with a Colt .45 automatic is not irrelevant, it explains why he was accurate in shooting and perhaps not so proficient in reloading a revolver.


The S&W 38 special is NOT the same gun being discussed by Cunningham..... The 38 S&W revolver in question was called A Victory Model....And the chambers were bigger diameter than the .38 Special ..... This is the reason the .38 Special ammo BALLOONED  in the chamber and made the spent .38 special cartridges "Very difficult to remove"

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But actually the Victory model was a .38 special when manufactured. This particular gun was re-chambered by Seaport Traders, Inc to the slightly larger diameter size. Here is the mail coupon (CE 135):

(https://i.vgy.me/stFWwR.jpg)

 Notice the price of this gun versus the S&W 38 special that is four line items above it. LHO apparently ordered it because it had a lower price. This is consistent with the rifle, which also was priced lower than most.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 03:53:52 PM
Yeah a half dozen people were all wrong and for some reason they all wanted to send Oswald to the electric chair and kill an innocent man, geez what a shitty country you live in where you can't even trust your fellow man or neighbour. Good luck with that!

Your histrionic grandstanding is even more hilarious than Benavides' "identification".  The Dallas police deliberately manipulated witnesses with biased and unfair lineups.  Not just in this case, but in many others.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/06/06/a-blind-faith-in-eyewitnesses-majority-dallas-cases-overturned-by-dna-relied-heavily-on-unreliable-testimony/ (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/06/06/a-blind-faith-in-eyewitnesses-majority-dallas-cases-overturned-by-dna-relied-heavily-on-unreliable-testimony/)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Good grief! Loading and unloading a Smith&Wesson .38 for Dummies-----


The revolver in the vIdeo is NOT  The old .38 caliber Victory model, that used the older and less powerful .38 cailber bullet.   The S&W revolver being discussed is the  old WW1 model.     That old S&W used a larger diameter but shorter length cartridge.   The dimensions shown in the top row are....

Projectile diameter---- .359"     Neck diameter--- .386"   Base diameter---.386"   Rim diameter---  .433"    Case length---  0.78"   Cartridge length--- 1.20"

The dimensions for the new S&W Special cartridge are .......
Projectile diameter---- .357"     Neck diameter--- .379"   Base diameter---.379"   Rim diameter---  .440"    Case length---  1.155"  Cartridge length--- 1.98"

It's obvious that the old "Victory" model would require chamber modification to allow the longer "Special" cartridge to be used in the old gun.   However the chamber bore (.388")was actually too large for the smaller diameter ( .379") Special cartridge cartridge.   This oversize chamber caused the powerful Special cartridge to balloon ( and often split) which made the removal of the spent shells difficult.   Just as Cunningham pointed out when he demonstrated the removal of the spent cartridges for the S&W Victory revolver in evidence.

So in summary....The spent shells are al removed at the same time from the S&W revolver....     But the witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while removing ONE- SHELL - AT - A - TIME.   And the spent shells were found widely scattered  which verifies the witnesses observations.   

The killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson revolver.......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 04:03:57 PM
Yes, I am aware of all of that. But actually the Victory model was a .38 special when manufactured. This particular gun was re-chambered by Seaport Traders, Inc to the slightly larger diameter size. Here is the mail coupon (CE 135):

You don't know what gun killed Tippit.

But I'm curious.  What is your source for the claim that Seaport Traders did the rechambering of CE 143?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 04:04:33 PM
The Dallas police deliberately manipulated witnesses with biased and unfair lineups.

No, an unfair lineup is 1 man holding a rifle with a sign saying "I did it" but the Dallas line-ups were anything but.
Anyway, I know I could in no way say a man was guilty if he was not, but if you reckon that your fellow Americans were so stupid to blindly send a Man to the Electric chair because they were mindlessly manipulated then it's no wonder your country is such a mess.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 04:09:31 PM
No, an unfair lineup is 1 man holding a rifle with a sign saying "I did it" but the Dallas line-ups were anything but.

False dilemma fallacy.  Both things are unfair lineups.

Quote
Anyway, I know I could in no way say a man was guilty if he was not,

Bully for you.  But you've shown in abundance how easily you are manipulated by police and prosecutor rhetoric.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 20, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
.....

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But actually the Victory model was a .38 special when manufactured. This particular gun was re-chambered by Seaport Traders, Inc to the slightly larger diameter size. Here is the mail coupon (CE 135):

(https://i.vgy.me/stFWwR.jpg)

 Notice the price of this gun versus the S&W 38 special that is four line items above it. LHO apparently ordered it because it had a lower price. This is consistent with the rifle, which also was priced lower than most.

There has been speculation those described as listening in to the Saturday night operator at the Dallas city hall assisting Oswald, triggered his shooting death ASAP, once the details of that phone surveillance and the name "John Hurt" reached those in DC in a position to understand Oswald was sending a veiled message to the PTB via the rudimentary means he was reduced to use to communicate with the outside world, given his circumstance on November 23.... IOW, he did not want anyone else to send a wink to the PTB on his behalf and he did not want to play the only card he had, the name "John Hurt" in public, under the glare of cameras and microphones of the representatives of the press he had brief access to.

If he was a patsy, it certainly could have taken him 24 to 39 hours to figure it all out and decide what he had to work with to try to give those who had set him up, second thoughts about following through with burning him.....or not?

In this particular combination of DeMohrenschildt-Oswald background details, Oswald would not be actually attempting to speak directly to John Hurt, merely to alert the right people to some knowledge he had come by, especially if he was the individual who had actually written the unusual name, "Drittal" on the Seaport Traders order form for the revolver purchase.

Coincidentally, Oswald has been linked to the names "Drittal" and John Hurt. What are the odds of that name combination
being inconsequential, random, vs what can actually be found and presented here?

Quote
https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/cryptologic-spectrum/frank_rowlett.pdf
The Signal Intelligence Service about 1935.
Seated: Mrs. Louise Newkirk Nelson. Standing, left to right: Herrick F. Bearce; Solomon Kullback; Captain
Harold G. Miller, USA; William F. Friedman; Abraham Sinkov; Lieutenant L. T. Jones, USCG; Frank B.
Rowlett. John B. Hurt was ill when the picture was taken.

Good thing nobody reads my posts....

Quote
https://oztypewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-crypto-underwood-typewriter.html

...This 1924 Underwood typewriter connection between Safford and Joerissen has lead to conspiracy theories which reach all the way to Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. I'm not going to go into that here - it's far too involved - but if anyone is interested in reading further on these theories, simply key in "safford+joerissen" in a Google search. In part, the links relate to the still unsolved shooting death of Joerissen's stepson, Chicago art dealer Paul Lamar Joachim (born Washington DC, 1912), a retired US Navy Rear Admiral, on October 22, 1962, exactly 13 months before Kennedy was killed. ...

........
...US Navy veteran, Bush, who was also a longtime acquaintance of George DeMohrenschildt, who happened to be close enough to US Navy Admiral, Chester Bruton, to bring Oswald's family to Adm. Bruton's Dallas home to use his swimming pool....

Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84&relPageId=66&search=joachim_and%20june
2. HSCA Report, Volume XII, pg 62
Found in: HSCA Appendix Volumes
Joachim told the FBI that he was employed at the time in the Navy building. (209) The other occu- pants of the house were Lt. Cdr.
Navy, and Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Em- bassy.(210) Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during the end of May
and all of June 1942.
(211) He said de Mohrenschildt never made any statements about feelings toward any country, and no statements which were pro-Nazi
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146006&relPageId=5&search=joachim_and%20quines
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DeMohrenschildt1942JoachimFBI.jpg)

Just one month after this was published, George DeM. just happened to arrive as a roomer in the DC family home inherited by
then Navy Lieut. Paul Joachim.":
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DeMohrenschildt1942JoachimStepFatherObit.jpg)

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17411-discussing-the-mindset-of-conspiracy-theorists/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-220299

Guest Tom Scully  - Posted February 26, 2011 (edited)
I'm posting this here, for the first time, anywhere, as a symbolic, thumb in the eye, of those hobbled by an inability to do anything other than read and parrot official line. The "line" is officially intended to keep any of us from going to places like this, ever! :.....
Quote
....Betrayal at Pearl Harbor: how Churchill lured Roosevelt into World ...

James Rusbridger, Eric Nave - 1991 - 302 pages - Snippet view

... was that they only had two radio operators capable of receiving and transcribing kana texts from Morse code transmissions. Safford solved this by designing a typewriter which he called a special code machine.33 On 26 November 1924, he sent details to John T. Underwood of the Underwood Typewriter Company, who examined Safford's specifications with his chief designer, Charles A. Joerissen. Two weeks later, on 10 December, they offered to build Safford four such machines for $645. The makers called them the Underwood Code Machine,....
....

Is Oswald not credited with a Saturday evening attempt to place a phone call from the Dallas jail to a John Hurt? Is not
this NSA John Hurt the spouse of a musician named Anna Drittel, sometimes spelled Drittal? Has anyone ever been acquainted with a "Drittal," or seen this or a similarly spelled surname anywhere else than on this Seaport Traders order form?

Is it merely coincidence DeMohrenschildt roomed for five weeks in May-June 1942 in the Washington DC home of future Admiral
Paul Joachim, murdered in October, 1962, still unsolved murder, or that Joachim's step-father built the decoding machine permitting rapid decoding of Japanese diplomatic code in Friedman's pre-WWII NSA "shop" and that McCloy was read in, daily, to the results of the work aka "Purple" of John B. Hurt and Friedman?

Just askin'.....

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/1966/08/09/archives/john-b-hurt-retired-aide-of-national-security-unit.html

John B. Hurt, Retired Aide Of National Security Unit

- New York Times - Aug 9, 1966

Mr. Hurt is survived by his widow, Mrs. Ana Dritell Burt, a Russian-born cellist; his mother, Mrs. Anna Hurt of Wytheville, Va.; two sisters and three ...

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldJohnHurtAnaDrittell.jpg)

Quote
https://www.roanoke.com/news/wytheville-linguist-s-world-war-ii-role-is-finally-revealed/article_6ac4ca11-0160-5d94-a5f3-e1afbf7e1ecc.html
Wytheville linguist's World War II role is finally revealed
Paul Dellinger Sep 3, 2005

WYTHEVILLE -- John Hurt was pretty sure a Japanese attack was coming. But he and others at work trying to break Japanese message codes in the days before World War II did not know the target.

Hurt, who grew up in Wytheville, wrote in private recollections declassified in 1983 that they thought it would be at Manila.

Few people knew much about Hurt's wartime work that, though far from the lines of combat, was crucial to the Allied effort. Like others in his agency, Hurt suffered immense stress and even a mental breakdown from the vast amount of secret work he was processing.....

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5281/5361535078_6546a90c07.jpg)
Harrod George Miller  (https://www.google.com/search?tbs=Bary Kamps%3A1&tbo=1&q="harrod+george+miller"++&btnG=Search+Books)and William Friedman, circa mid 1930's

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5248/5361051501_34e9cfb991_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 04:29:20 PM
The revolver in the vIdeo is NOT  The old .38 caliber Victory model, that used the older and less powerful .38 cailber bullet.   The S&W revolver being discussed is the  old WW1 model.     That old S&W used a larger diameter but shorter length cartridge.   The dimensions shown in the top row are....

Projectile diameter---- .359"     Neck diameter--- .386"   Base diameter---.386"   Rim diameter---  .433"    Case length---  0.78"   Cartridge length--- 1.20"

The dimensions for the new S&W Special cartridge are .......
Projectile diameter---- .357"     Neck diameter--- .379"   Base diameter---.379"   Rim diameter---  .440"    Case length---  1.155"  Cartridge length--- 1.98"

It's obvious that the old "Victory" model would require chamber modification to allow the longer "Special" cartridge to be used in the old gun.   However the chamber bore (.388")was actually too large for the smaller diameter ( .379") Special cartridge cartridge.   This oversize chamber caused the powerful Special cartridge to balloon ( and often split) which made the removal of the spent shells difficult.   Just as Cunningham pointed out when he demonstrated the removal of the spent cartridges for the S&W Victory revolver in evidence.

So in summary....The spent shells are al removed at the same time from the S&W revolver....     But the witnesses said that Tippit's killer walked away while removing ONE- SHELL - AT - A - TIME.   And the spent shells were found widely scattered  which verifies the witnesses observations.   

The killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson revolver.......

I would like to know if other old revolvers could be modified to use the S&W Special cartridge......For example could an old .38 caliber Colt be modified to use the 38 Special cartridge?  Perhaps some reader has this information and could post it.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 20, 2019, 05:01:13 PM
False dilemma fallacy.  Both things are unfair lineups.

Bully for you.  But you've shown in abundance how easily you are manipulated by police and prosecutor rhetoric.

Quote
False dilemma fallacy.  Both things are unfair lineups.

This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQfFetO3WS9u5K2BVyzz65X5DhqKbQJJcXThoyaBewWe10JcKxI)

Quote
Bully for you.

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

Quote
But you've shown in abundance how easily you are manipulated by police and prosecutor rhetoric.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQJtLIpsb-w4OELDWg6kqNZ08CVtGnUGxdw54SLrdM6n4GFK8Vx)

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 05:21:34 PM
This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not very realistic, Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon didn't look like he could be intimidated.

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQJtLIpsb-w4OELDWg6kqNZ08CVtGnUGxdw54SLrdM6n4GFK8Vx)

JohnM

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon,

"When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald"  
 Sir, You will need to extract your head....and that should enable you to see that the police railroaded Lee Oswald....   One of the major lies that they spread was that they had found the arch villain's ( Lee Oswald ) prints on the rifle. Henry Wade told reporters " Oh, By the way,....Did I mention that we have found his prints on the gun.?"     When in FACT no identifiable prints had been found on the gun.

The police also used rigged Line ups to railroad their patsy.....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 20, 2019, 05:56:36 PM
You don't know what gun killed Tippit.

But I'm curious.  What is your source for the claim that Seaport Traders did the rechambering of CE 143?

I am searching for the source. If I find it I will post it.

The point I was making was to dispute Walt's apparent miss-association of the "Victory" model name exclusively with the .38 S&W caliber. This is what wikipedia has to say:

The Victory Model was used by United States forces during World War II, being chambered in the well-known and popular .38 Special cartridge. The Victory Model was a standard-issue sidearm for United States Navy and Marine Corps aircrews, and was also used by security guards at factories and defense installations throughout the United States during the war.

The S&W M&P military revolvers produced from 1942 to 1944 had serial numbers with a "V" prefix, and were known as the Smith & Wesson Victory Model. It is noteworthy that early Victory Models did not always have the V prefix. During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber already in use in the Enfield No 2 Mk I Revolver and the Webley Mk IV Revolver. Most Victory Models sent to Britain were fitted with 4-inch or 5-inch barrels, although a few early versions had 6-inch barrels.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 05:57:45 PM
This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc...

Strawman fallacy.  I didn't say there will never ever ever be a fair lineup.  These lineups were biased and unfair.

- Fillers should generally resemble each other and the suspect
- Fillers and the suspect should be dressed alike
- Fillers should resemble the witness's pre-lineup description of the suspect
- There should be a minimum of 5 fillers
- The person administering the lineup should not know who the suspect is
- If the suspect has an unusual or unique feature that would make him stand out then it should be concealed, or the fillers should have the same thing artificially added
- Witnesses should not attend lineups together
- The witness should not be visible to the suspect or fillers
- The suspect's position in each lineup should be randomly placed
- Witnesses should be told that the suspect may or may not be in the lineup
- Witnesses should be asked how certain they are of the identification
- Witnesses should not have been biased by media reports prior to the lineup
- Witnesses shouldn't be pressured to make a selection

https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html (https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html)

Quote
So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.

"Didn't look like he could be intimidated".  There's a scientific analysis for you.   :D

But what does being intimidated have to do with anything?

Quote
It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

Who ever said that anyone was wanting to "send a man wrongfully to his death"?

Quote
When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald

"Major" as defined as something other than what the police actually did.

Quote
then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own

Considering?  Wasn't that what they were supposedly trying to investigate with these rigged lineups?

Quote
and was found with the weapon,

LOL

Quote
then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.

Exactly.  They railroaded him, because they decided first that he killed a cop, and then rigged lineups to give them the answer that they wanted.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 20, 2019, 06:55:19 PM
Strawman fallacy.  I didn't say there will never ever ever be a fair lineup.  These lineups were biased and unfair.

- Fillers should generally resemble each other and the suspect
- Fillers and the suspect should be dressed alike
- Fillers should resemble the witness's pre-lineup description of the suspect
- There should be a minimum of 5 fillers
- The person administering the lineup should not know who the suspect is
- If the suspect has an unusual or unique feature that would make him stand out then it should be concealed, or the fillers should have the same thing artificially added
- Witnesses should not attend lineups together
- The witness should not be visible to the suspect or fillers
- The suspect's position in each lineup should be randomly placed
- Witnesses should be told that the suspect may or may not be in the lineup
- Witnesses should be asked how certain they are of the identification
- Witnesses should not have been biased by media reports prior to the lineup
- Witnesses shouldn't be pressured to make a selection

https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html (https://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/eyewitness_id.html)

"Didn't look like he could be intimidated".  There's a scientific analysis for you.   :D

But what does being intimidated have to do with anything?

Who ever said that anyone was wanting to "send a man wrongfully to his death"?

"Major" as defined as something other than what the police actually did.

Considering?  Wasn't that what they were supposedly trying to investigate with these rigged lineups?

LOL

Exactly.  They railroaded him, because they decided first that he killed a cop, and then rigged lineups to give them the answer that they wanted.

All fillers shall have plastic surgery to look exactly like Oswald.
No fillers shall wear a wedding ring
All fillers shall look effeminate
All fillers shall have cold dead eyes
All fillers shall have a twisted-arse walk
All fillers shall learn to mutter-- twice-- 'poor dumb cop'
All fillers shall effect the look of a loser.
All fillers shall effect a permanent smirk

And all fillers must be able to make The Divine Miss M get cold chills

PS: Once again, JudgeJohnny, thanks so much for your always-useful posts
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 20, 2019, 06:56:39 PM
I am searching for the source. If I find it I will post it.

The point I was making was to dispute Walt's apparent miss-association of the "Victory" model name exclusively with the .38 S&W caliber. This is what wikipedia has to say:

The Victory Model was used by United States forces during World War II, being chambered in the well-known and popular .38 Special cartridge. The Victory Model was a standard-issue sidearm for United States Navy and Marine Corps aircrews, and was also used by security guards at factories and defense installations throughout the United States during the war.

The S&W M&P military revolvers produced from 1942 to 1944 had serial numbers with a "V" prefix, and were known as the Smith & Wesson Victory Model. It is noteworthy that early Victory Models did not always have the V prefix. During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber already in use in the Enfield No 2 Mk I Revolver and the Webley Mk IV Revolver. Most Victory Models sent to Britain were fitted with 4-inch or 5-inch barrels, although a few early versions had 6-inch barrels.
During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber

I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater. 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 20, 2019, 06:59:22 PM
That's a probability argument. Touching a small area like the trigger or a shell probably would leave a smudged print, if any. The finger leaving off the trigger would "wipe" any print there, as would pushing a shell forward between fingers into a revolver. There's also the factor that fingers don't constantly and consistently cast off prints anyway. Sometimes the fingers are dry due to touching something absorbent or purposely wiping or washing them.

Someone needs to load a S&W from scratch and test your hypothesis. Oswald must have only touched the rim of the casings not to leave even a smeared print on at least one of them. Otherwise, Oswald would have taken great care not to put his prints on them or the gun.

Quote
Police seldom see latent fingerprints on a spent shell due to heat vaporizing the oils. We went over on the Forum a while ago the new technique that would be able to detect "micro-etched fingerprints", prints that aren't visible but have left a thin residual mark due to heat. But some studies intentionally placed strong fingerprints on the hulls before firing, which improved the detection results. Still on the off-chance there might be some prints on the hulls in the JFK case, then they'll hopefully be tested when the science is truly ready.

If there was any hint of prints on the hulls, smeared or otherwise, we would have heard about it by now.

Quote
Some materials resist printing. I think the rifle's wood stock was like that, in that it was absorbent. The triggerguard housing was smooth metal, almost perfect for a print to be deposited. Without getting into the arguments for-and-against, some believe Oswald's prints were photographed on the housing.

Oswald's alleged palm print was discovered on the barrel under the stock by Day after he disassembled the rifle. But I'm still waiting to see the expert analysis that matches this print to Oswald. Supposedly, there were several detectives/laymen who eyeballed the faded print and declared it a match to the palm print taken from Oswald post-mortem. Those were some eagle-eyed cops to pull that off.

Quote
Fingerprint evidence is always highlighted on TV shows but real-life court cases usually don't have much, if any, in the way of fingerprint evidence. Often the weapon is wiped down or the prints are smudged or the surface of the weapon isn't receptive to prints. Or the killer wore gloves. The Golden State Killer apparently left no prints, only one trace of DNA.

But nobody thinks that Oswald wore gloves and he allegedly man-handled the MC by disassembling it, placing it in a paper bag (wonky scope included), reassembled it in the TSBD, fired it at least 3 times, ditched it and only left one questionable partial palm print on the barrel and no other prints on the stock, bolt, scope, strap, clip and ammo. The most likely scenario to leave virtually no prints on the MC, was that the shooter wore gloves. Otherwise, there is no way Oswald would have or could have wiped the MC down before fleeing the scene.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 20, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
Up until recently the chances of taking prints off a spent shell was practically impossible but the bullet recovered from within the rifle could have a print that is if Oswald wasn't wearing gloves or he didn't smear the print.

JohnM

I guess that's why Fritz thought it was ok to pick up the hulls with his bare hands and later toss them back onto the floor for a staged photo of the crime scene. Fritz assumed that Oswald didn't leave any prints on them, right?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 20, 2019, 07:14:59 PM
You don't know what gun killed Tippit.

But I'm curious.  What is your source for the claim that Seaport Traders did the rechambering of CE 143?

Okay, I think I found the source of what I had read before making that assertion. Here is a quote from a Dale Myers webpage:

The .38 Smith & Wesson revolver used in the Tippit murder was originally purchased by Seaport Traders from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on October 13, 1962. Seaport Traders received it on January 3, 1963 and had it modified. [30]

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html (http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html)

footnote [30]: 7H375

If you read the testimony of Mr. Michaelis, he states the actual modifications were done for them by a Mr. M.L. Johnson of 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, California.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 20, 2019, 07:16:35 PM
This is a go nowhere argument, it's easy from the defence's perspective to flippantly say that there will never ever ever be a fair lineup because in reality there will always be another endless reason why the current lineups were unfair for example, there should be more people in the lineup, the light was different, the distance was different, their skin colours must be closer, the hair colour and hairline must be the same, they weren't the same shape, their nationalities and race didn't go back to their grandparents etc etc... So it's good and all that you believe that you can get all the positive identifications thrown out on some form of technicality by screaming "unfair" unfair" but that's not how it works, you have to deal with the eyewitnesses like Callaway the ex-marine who saw Oswald with a weapon and didn't look like he could be intimidated.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQfFetO3WS9u5K2BVyzz65X5DhqKbQJJcXThoyaBewWe10JcKxI)

It's not only me John, I know no one in my family would ever send a man wrongfully to his death and I'm betting that you and your family couldn't either.

When you show the Police did something major to deliberately penalise Oswald then they may be a problem but considering that Oswald killed one of their own and was found with the weapon, then on the whole the Dallas Police were quite restrained because I know if someone killed my friend I would have trouble holding back.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQJtLIpsb-w4OELDWg6kqNZ08CVtGnUGxdw54SLrdM6n4GFK8Vx)

JohnM

Wasn't it Callaway who took it upon himself to stand the same 56' distance away from the lineup that he saw Oswald from on the street? It seems any defence lawyer would have demanded a field trip to have witnesses view Oswald (& fillers) from the distances they saw him on the street.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 20, 2019, 07:23:08 PM
During World War II over 570,000 of these pistols were supplied to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa under the Lend-Lease program, chambered in the British .38/200 caliber

I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater.


I'm no expert on S&W revolvers, but I believe that the old S&W revolver that magically appeared at the Texas Theater was one of those 570, 000 pistols that had been sent overseas to an ally during WWII.

Well, Smith and Wesson will provide certification of the details for a fee if requested. But after further research, I am getting a clearer picture of the origin of the pistol and I think you are probably correct with regards to the overseas group of pistols. It appears to me that, Seaport Traders purchased a case of (probably) these and modified some of them.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 07:35:32 PM
Wasn't it Callaway who took it upon himself to stand the same 56' distance away from the lineup that he saw Oswald from on the street?

Well according to Bill "TypoSuck" Chapman, it was 12-15 feet.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 20, 2019, 09:15:57 PM
No, an unfair lineup is 1 man holding a rifle with a sign saying "I did it" but the Dallas line-ups were anything but.
Anyway, I know I could in no way say a man was guilty if he was not, but if you reckon that your fellow Americans were so stupid to blindly send a Man to the Electric chair because they were mindlessly manipulated then it's no wonder your country is such a mess.
What a brilliantly stupid thing to write!--- JM...truly a legend in his own mind Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 21, 2019, 12:37:00 AM
Well according to Bill "TypoSuck" Chapman, it was 12-15 feet.

I coined the word, and it is directed at the people who so unnecessarily and desparately point out other people's typos... and in a petty, childish manner, I might add.

Show us how mistaking a distance equates with being a typosuck, JudgeJohnny. And thanks so much for alerting me at my 12-15' distance-misremember*. Your posts are always so useful.

*I must have been channeling your boy Arnie at the time.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 01:20:57 AM
All fillers shall have plastic surgery to look exactly like Oswald.
No fillers shall wear a wedding ring
All fillers shall look effeminate
All fillers shall have cold dead eyes
All fillers shall have a twisted-arse walk
All fillers shall learn to mutter-- twice-- 'poor dumb cop'
All fillers shall effect the look of a loser.
All fillers shall effect a permanent smirk

Somebody who posts nothing but ridiculous nonsense like this has no business whining about useful input.

But if you’re ignorant of the facts and have nothing to offer, then I suppose being the town clown keeps you occupied.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/chapman-bozo.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 01:22:46 AM
But that's unimportant....  The point is.....The Killer was witnessed walking away after shooting Tippit and he was removing ONE - SHELL- AT-  A- TIME as he walked away.    The spent shells from an S&W are NOT removed ONE - AT- A- TIME.....Cunningham  demonstrated how the spent shells are removed from the old S&W that magically appeared at the Texas Theater.

I think you mean the old S&W that magically appeared in Gerald Hill’s pocket 2 hours later.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 01:24:57 AM
Okay, I think I found the source of what I had read before making that assertion. Here is a quote from a Dale Myers webpage:

The .38 Smith & Wesson revolver used in the Tippit murder was originally purchased by Seaport Traders from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on October 13, 1962. Seaport Traders received it on January 3, 1963 and had it modified. [30]

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html (http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html)

footnote [30]: 7H375

If you read the testimony of Mr. Michaelis, he states the actual modifications were done for them by a Mr. M.L. Johnson of 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, California.

I read Michaelis before I asked, but all I saw was that Seaport shortened the barrel.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 21, 2019, 05:06:50 AM
If Markam left her house about 1:04, then at 1:06 she is almost halfway to where the bus stop is, then she would have had arrived  at about 1:08, about 4 minutes before the 1:12 bus arrives "on time" as McWatters WC testimony suggests the protocol for bus was to arrive not too early nor late, but "on time" as scheduled.

Markam is a routine bus rider and she is dependent on a bus arriving if she is to get to work, so she could opt to take either the earlier 1:12 bus or the later 1:22 bus. (presuming these 2 bus time are actually correct?)

The safe bet, to MAKE SURE she gets to work is to opt for the earlier bus, since that way, if that 1:12 bus does not arrive, then she will not miss work, since she can then wait still at the same bus stop and catch the 1:22 bus.

If it is the 1:22 bus , then either Markam has opted to wait for a rather long period of 14 minutes for this bus to arrive, or her clock is out of sync with both DPD official clock time AND the Bus company official time and probably her place of work clock too, by about 6 minutes. Her watch is set 6 minutes slow.

She has also opted to take risk of MISSING work altogether that day, should the 1:22 bus no arrive due to mechanical failure, flat tire, etc.

Bowleys watch must be set 6 minutes slow, if Markams bus is the 1:22 bus.

The more probable scenario, imo, is that both Bowley and Markam, being routine regular workers at workplaces that most likely had their clocks set by "official time" thus in sync with DPD clock, Bus Comany clock, TSBD Roof Top Clock, would NOT LIKELY have their own clocks runnng 6 minutes slow.

Also, imo, its more probable that Markam would opt to take the earlier 1:12 bus, and arrive at that bus stop about 1:08 having to wait only about 4 minutes if its on time and only 3 more minutes if its a little late arriving at 1:15, which it may occasionally have done.

Also, its a safer option, just in case the 1:12 bus breaks down  and never arrives at all, Markam can still take the 1:22 bus, still make it to work, albeit possibly a little late, but better than missing work altogether for that day.







Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 12:53:37 PM
I read Michaelis before I asked, but all I saw was that Seaport shortened the barrel.

Yes, he was only asked about the barrel length modification. However, the cylinder was re-chambered:

Some Lend-Lease Victory Model revolvers originally chambered for the British .38/200 were returned to the United States and rechambered to fire the more popular and more powerful .38 Special ammunition, and such revolvers are usually so marked on their barrels. Rechambering of .38-200 cylinders to .38 Special results in oversized chambers, which may cause problems. Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying a re-chambered Victory Model when he was apprehended on November 22, 1963.[10]

10. Martin, Orlando (January 2010). JFK. Analysis of a Shooting: The Ultimate Ballistics Truth Exposed. Dog Ear Publishing. pp. 118–119. ISBN 978-1-60844-315-4.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10)


In the absence of evidence that it was re-chambered elsewhere, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that this was done at the same time the barrel was shortened. Seaport Traders apparently purchases these surplus guns (by the case) for relatively inexpensive amounts. And sends some of them to a gunsmith for modifications. Then sells them for significantly less ($10) than a similar gun that is factory made for the .38 special ammunition (see mail order coupon). The potential problems caused by the oversized chambers would likely be the reason for the lower price.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 21, 2019, 03:31:23 PM
Yes, he was only asked about the barrel length modification. However, the cylinder was re-chambered:

Some Lend-Lease Victory Model revolvers originally chambered for the British .38/200 were returned to the United States and rechambered to fire the more popular and more powerful .38 Special ammunition, and such revolvers are usually so marked on their barrels. Rechambering of .38-200 cylinders to .38 Special results in oversized chambers, which may cause problems. Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying a re-chambered Victory Model when he was apprehended on November 22, 1963.[10]

10. Martin, Orlando (January 2010). JFK. Analysis of a Shooting: The Ultimate Ballistics Truth Exposed. Dog Ear Publishing. pp. 118–119. ISBN 978-1-60844-315-4.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10)


In the absence of evidence that it was re-chambered elsewhere, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that this was done at the same time the barrel was shortened. Seaport Traders apparently purchases these surplus guns (by the case) for relatively inexpensive amounts. And sends some of them to a gunsmith for modifications. Then sells them for significantly less ($10) than a similar gun that is factory made for the .38 special ammunition (see mail order coupon). The potential problems caused by the oversized chambers would likely be the reason for the lower price.

 You have never explained how Tippit's Killer removed  ONE- SHELL - AT-A-TIME as he walked away from the murder scene.....The most logical explanation is: The killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. 

As far as I know....Nobody has ever proved that the spent shells entered into evidence are in fact the same shells that were found at the murder scene....

Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying a re-chambered Victory Model when he was apprehended on November 22, 1963.

Maybe, or maybe not....  Can you prove that Lee was in possession of the S&W Victory when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.  And  yes,  I know that is a commonly accepted factoid.... But is it true?     If Lee had that S&W on him at the theater it certainly should have his prints all over it.    Were his prints found on the revolver? 

 
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 04:00:49 PM
You have never explained how Tippit's Killer removed  ONE- SHELL - AT-A-TIME as he walked away from the murder scene.....The most logical explanation is: The killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. 

As far as I know....Nobody has ever proved that the spent shells entered into evidence are in fact the same shells that were found at the murder scene....

Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying a re-chambered Victory Model when he was apprehended on November 22, 1963.

Maybe, or maybe not....  Can you prove that Lee was in possession of the S&W Victory when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.  And  yes,  I know that is a commonly accepted factoid.... But is it true?     If Lee had that S&W on him at the theater it certainly should have his prints all over it.    Were his prints found on the revolver?


You have never explained how Tippit's Killer removed  ONE- SHELL - AT-A-TIME as he walked away from the murder scene.....The most logical explanation is: The killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. 

Maybe you should explain this "logic" of yours.

A very reasonable explanation is that he could have pressed the ejector part way (so that the spent shells were part way out but still held there by friction. Then proceed to pull them out the rest of the way one at a time with his fingers.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 04:01:17 PM
Maybe, or maybe not....  Can you prove that Lee was in possession of the S&W Victory when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.

Even by the police account, he was not carrying a weapon when he was arrested (after the scuffle).
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 04:14:23 PM
Even by the police account, he was not carrying a weapon when he was arrested (after the scuffle).

It had just been taken away from him during the scuffle by the DPD.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 04:22:08 PM
It had just been taken away from him during the scuffle by the DPD.

That's what Nick McDonald claimed, yes.  Nick McDonald claimed a lot of things.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 05:10:09 PM
That's what Nick McDonald claimed, yes.  Nick McDonald claimed a lot of things.

Rumor has it that you were on the jury for the O.J. Simpson murder trial. Is that true?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 21, 2019, 05:17:14 PM

You have never explained how Tippit's Killer removed  ONE- SHELL - AT-A-TIME as he walked away from the murder scene.....The most logical explanation is: The killer was NOT using a S&W revolver. 

Maybe you should explain this "logic" of yours.

A very reasonable explanation is that he could have pressed the ejector part way (so that the spent shells were part way out but still held there by friction. Then proceed to pull them out the rest of the way one at a time with his fingers.

A very reasonable explanation is that he could have pressed the ejector part way (so that the spent shells were part way out but still held there by friction. Then proceed to pull them out the rest of the way one at a time with his fingers.


Reasonable???....ROTFLMAO!....  I reject your silly idea as the excuse from a desperate person.   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 05:19:16 PM

A very reasonable explanation is that he could have pressed the ejector part way (so that the spent shells were part way out but still held there by friction. Then proceed to pull them out the rest of the way one at a time with his fingers.


Reasonable???....ROTFLMAO!....  I reject your silly idea as the excuse from a desperate person.   

Exactly what do you believe is unreasonable about it?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 21, 2019, 05:42:06 PM
Exactly what do you believe is unreasonable about it?

Do you honestly think a fleeing killer would only eject the shells half way??    We know he tossed the spent shells away, so he wasn't concerned about saving the empty brass....  And since that's true, it's not reasonable to eject the shells half way.  He would have ejected them and let them fall on the ground.

It's clear to me that the killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson.......I believe that he was using a revolver like a Colt or Ruger without a sawed off barrel.... Because his accuracy was excellent.....   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 21, 2019, 05:56:09 PM
Do you honestly think a fleeing killer would only eject the shells half way??    We know he tossed the spent shells away, so he wasn't concerned about saving the empty brass....  And since that's true, it's not reasonable to eject the shells half way.  He would have ejected them and let them fall on the ground.

It's clear to me that the killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson.......I believe that he was using a revolver like a Colt or Ruger without a sawed off barrel.... Because his accuracy was excellent.....   

We know it took extraordinary force to eject the spent shells with the ejector (Cunningham testimony). Perhaps he preferred holding the gun pointing down and allowing the un-spent cartridge(s) to stay in the cylinder, using gravity, while the partially ejected spent shells are picked out one at a time. You are the one that insists he removed them one at a time. I am answering your question as to how he might have done it.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 21, 2019, 06:16:01 PM
We know it took extraordinary force to eject the spent shells with the ejector (Cunningham testimony). Perhaps he preferred holding the gun pointing down and allowing the un-spent cartridge(s) to stay in the cylinder, using gravity, while the partially ejected spent shells are picked out one at a time. You are the one that insists he removed them one at a time. I am answering your question as to how he might have done it.

 You are the one that insists he removed them one at a time.

I'm merely repeating what witnesses said they saw....  They said they saw him walking away from the scene as he removed one spent shell at a time....And the shells that were found attested to the fact that he removed them one at a time, because they were found widely distributed. 

Perhaps he preferred holding the gun pointing down and allowing the un-spent cartridge(s) to stay in the cylinder,

Please present solid proof that there was any unfired cartridge in the gun.

I am answering your question as to how he might have done it.

R U serious??    You're proffering ridiculous ideas.......   
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 21, 2019, 06:57:04 PM
Even by the police account, he was not carrying a weapon when he was arrested (after the scuffle).

Even by the police account, he was carrying a weapon before he was arrested (before the scuffle).
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 21, 2019, 07:03:43 PM
Even by the police account, he was carrying a weapon before he was arrested (before the scuffle).

Yes, the account of this guy:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/mcdonald-captor.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 21, 2019, 08:13:37 PM
Yes, the account of this guy:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/mcdonald-captor.jpg)

Do you have any proof that McDonald was lying?  Post it, please.

Ray Hawkins stated that the gun came out of Oswald's belt.

Thomas Hutson stated that Oswald moved his right hand to his waist, and that he saw a revolver come out.  Hutson also said that both of McDonald's hands were holding Oswald's right hand (which had the gun it).  Hutson stated that the gun was removed from Oswald's hand.

C.T. Walker stated that during the scuffle, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt.

I'm sure you'll claim that McDonald, Hawkins, Hutson and Walker were lying or mistaken.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 21, 2019, 08:51:47 PM
Even by the police account, he was carrying a weapon before he was arrested (before the scuffle).

Yeah, well very few of us believe the police..... They've demonstrated over and over that they were liars.

"Oh,... And did I mention that they've found his prints on the gun"?  ....Henry Wade 11/23/63   Wade was lying......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 21, 2019, 09:45:21 PM
Yeah, well very few of us believe the police..... They've demonstrated over and over that they were liars.

"Oh,... And did I mention that they've found his prints on the gun"?  ....Henry Wade 11/23/63   Wade was lying......

Straw man.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 21, 2019, 09:54:46 PM
Do you have any proof that McDonald was lying?  Post it, please.

Ray Hawkins stated that the gun came out of Oswald's belt.

Thomas Hutson stated that Oswald moved his right hand to his waist, and that he saw a revolver come out.  Hutson also said that both of McDonald's hands were holding Oswald's right hand (which had the gun it).  Hutson stated that the gun was removed from Oswald's hand.

C.T. Walker stated that during the scuffle, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt.

I'm sure you'll claim that McDonald, Hawkins, Hutson and Walker were lying or mistaken.

Somebody said he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun

And WTF are you talking about, anyway?
Oswald said he was innocent. Case closed.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Brown on November 21, 2019, 10:14:56 PM
Somebody said he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun

And WTF are you talking about, anyway?
Oswald said he was innocent. Case closed.

Correct.  The police are lying, not Oswald.   ::)

Bill, when it's all said and done, these clowns here just can't accept the fact that the cop-killing Oswald got exactly what he deserved.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 21, 2019, 10:27:56 PM
Do you have any proof that McDonald was lying?  Post it, please.

Ray Hawkins stated that the gun came out of Oswald's belt.

Thomas Hutson stated that Oswald moved his right hand to his waist, and that he saw a revolver come out.  Hutson also said that both of McDonald's hands were holding Oswald's right hand (which had the gun it).  Hutson stated that the gun was removed from Oswald's hand.

C.T. Walker stated that during the scuffle, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt.

I'm sure you'll claim that McDonald, Hawkins, Hutson and Walker were lying or mistaken.

 Thumb1:

The eyewitnesses who identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.


Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Alan Hardaker on November 21, 2019, 11:03:32 PM
No one can say that Oswald didn't combine walking, sprinting, jogging, or trotting
Bottom line is that Oswald was Johnny-on-the-spot

And this was the point I was trying to make.The timings from Oawald leaving the TSBD and being arrested are not clear. It only takes for a few minutes to accrue to afford Oswald the possibility of being at the Tippit murder scene. Then the eye witnesses come into play and despite all the claims of posters claiming Oswald is innocent, they are quite substantial. I haven't seen enough evidence in this thread to acquit Oswald. If I was on a jury I would need a lot more than has been presented here by his defenders.

I also feel the same way about the assassination.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 21, 2019, 11:03:54 PM
Bill, I am replying to you to alert readers our U.S. history is the color gray, not black or white.

....got exactly what he deserved.

But, when Ruby strolled into the basement of the DPD cop shop less than 48 hours later and shot down Oswald on live TV, the American people certainly did not what get what they deserved, and also certainly not when,

Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r2.htm

...Mr. JENNER - Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have anything to do with that?
Mrs. PAINE - There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.
Mr. JENNER - Were you the leader of that committee?
Mrs. PAINE - I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.
We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.
Mr. JENNER - Were you active in that group?
Mrs. PAINE - I was chairman of that for sometime.
Mr. JENNER - Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.....

...Mr. JENNER - Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our Purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_m1.htm
....
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the United States and people in the Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE - That was another part of this East-West contacts committee's duties or tasks they took upon themselves and I think she was chairman, accepted the chairmanship of that committee.
For a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive.
Mr. DULLES - Which committee was that, the committee to stimulate letters between Russia and the United States?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect people together.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that group?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - You spoke of the East-West contacts committee as being active in trying to bring a group of Russians to the United States. Did they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring Russians to the United States that you know of?
Mr. PAINE - That is the only one I know of, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did they succeed in bringing some Russians to the United States?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; they did. They brought three Russians, and then the Russians reciprocated by taking a group of Quakers who knew Russian on a tour of Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you married to Ruth Hyde Paine at the time these Russian people came to the United States under the auspices of the East-West contacts committee?
Mr. PAINE - I might have been; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether she actively participated in the program to bring the Russians to the United States?
Mr. PAINE - Well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. I don't believe she did most of the writing to the State Department and what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever discuss them with you in any detail?
Mr. PAINE - We, I would often--I went to several of those meetings myself.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know the names of any of the Russians who came to the United States in connection with this program?
Mr. PAINE - I might recognize them if I saw them again, but right now the names have escaped me.....

(http://jfkforum.com/images/RuthPaineMerrillRandRussia1930.jpg)

1932 Obit excerpt of Merrill's father"
(http://jfkforum.com/images/RuthPaineMerrillRandObit1932.jpg)

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/12/02/archives/frederick-merrill-diplomat-69-dead.html
FREDERICK MERRILL, DIPLOMAT, 69, DEAD
December 2, 1974, Page 36

WASHINGTON, Dec. 1 —Frederick T. Merrill, who was the State Department's Director of East‐West Contacts from 1956 to 1960 and deputy chief of mission in Rumania from 1960 to 1962, died yesterday of a heart attack in Arlington, Va. He was 69 years old and had lived in Villierstown, County Waterford, Ireland, and Wainscott, L.I., since his retirement in 1965.

Mr. Merrill, who graduated from Phillips Academy, Andover, Mass, and Princeton University, held a master's degree from Columbia University. He had been a researcher for the Foreign Policy Association before joining the Foreign Service in 1940. He served in Algiers and Budapest among other posts, and had been acting United States representative on the United Nations Narcotics Commission.
http://newspaperarchive.com/us/illinois/sterling/sterling-daily-gazette/1951/05-01/page-9
"...while H James Rand of Cleveland, Ohio was best man."
(http://jfkforum.com/images/ShaheenBestManRand.jpg)

1969:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldWebsterRandPostalBlatnik.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PLjRsSIaeng/U0dmD8NCEzI/AAAAAAAABtk/I_YmknesMpY/s512/ShaheenRandMcGawHumphrey.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/ShaheenCaseyWilliamSafireDeclassified2012.jpg)





Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 21, 2019, 11:38:39 PM
And this was the point I was trying to make.The timings from Oawald leaving the TSBD and being arrested are not clear. It only takes for a few minutes to accrue to afford Oswald the possibility of being at the Tippit murder scene. Then the eye witnesses come into play and despite all the claims of posters claiming Oswald is innocent, they are quite substantial. I haven't seen enough evidence in this thread to acquit Oswald. If I was on a jury I would need a lot more than has been presented here by his defenders.

I also feel the same way about the assassination.

I haven't seen enough evidence in this thread to acquit Oswald. If I was on a jury I would need a lot more than has been presented here by his defenders.

You seem to think that it is the task of a juror to assume somebody's guilty unless his innocence is proven. If that's the way you think it works, you should never serve on a jury and move to Salem as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 12:35:00 AM
And this was the point I was trying to make.The timings from Oawald leaving the TSBD and being arrested are not clear. It only takes for a few minutes to accrue to afford Oswald the possibility of being at the Tippit murder scene. Then the eye witnesses come into play and despite all the claims of posters claiming Oswald is innocent, they are quite substantial. I haven't seen enough evidence in this thread to acquit Oswald. If I was on a jury I would need a lot more than has been presented here by his defenders.

I also feel the same way about the assassination.

You seem to be assuming a "preponderance of the evidence," standard. This is not reasonable. Is there no penalty for failing to keep the accused alive while in custody? Should I infer nothing from that failure, aside from it preventing the ability to present an adequate defense, even if the defendant wanted to? Shouldn't that failure be prejudicial against the prosecution, in any way beneficial to the late accused?

Neither a defendant or a jury is under any obligation to establish innocence or to attempt or justify acquittal. There is no requirement of the defendant than to answer a criminal charge with a plea and submit to the authority of the court.... show up for court proceedings as ordered but the judge must instruct jury to make no inference of guilt or innocence if a defendant simply observes prosecutors present the state's arguments, witness testimony, and other evidence.

I have only purchased one firearm in my entire life, in 2017, but I have in my home because of that recent purchase, boxes of bullets, gun oil, gun cleaning kit, rifle clips, and various receipts for those purchases from six vendors other than the one from the original firearm purchase. I've yet to ever fire the thing, but it is oiled and loaded with a round in the chamber, next to my bed. Klein's sporting goods evidently did not include a "stripper" clip with the rifle purchase. I proved in 2015 that the postal money order is not suspect, except possibly its one day transit from mailing in Dallas to alleged receipt in Chicago by Klein's.
The revolver was a c.o.d. purchase and the government has provided no evidence of how the deliverer, Railway Express was paid or how or if Oswald was notified that it had arrived in Dallas.... to my understanding, there are only various CT speculative scenarios of how that revolver got from Seaport Traders into Oswald's hands.

The less available than usual "stripper" clip and cartridges found in the TSBD rifle and empty on the floor have never been sourced from a point of sale.
Not understanding where there was a reasonable explanation influencing removal of my reasonable doubt, Driver Whaley and Mrs. Roberts at the rooming house raised more doubts as to their reliability than they eliminated. Mrs. Roberts exhibited no realiable sense of time and her employer, Gladys Johnson described her as a teller of tall tales. Mrs. Roberts' sister Bertha testified of her own recent attempt to partner in an investment with Jack Ruby.

Even aside from the name "Drittal," which no one can retrieve as an actual example of a viable name despite modern resources like SSDI search, ancestry dot com, familysearch dot com, the closes match I could find happens to be the maiden name, "Drittel" of the wife of an NSA officer whose name was John B Hurt.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4379001282_dc4cb3054f_b.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldJohnHurtAnaDrittell.jpg)
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/raleigh_phone_call_slip.jpg?zoom=1.2000000476837158&resize=600%2C390)

Hidell was the name of the secretary of the V.P. of the Confederate States of America. The nickname of that V.P, Hidell served under was "little Alec". Males of Oswald's family were named after Gen. Robert E. Lee.
Quote
Full text of "Alexander H Stephens" - Internet Archive
https://archive.org/stream/alexanderhstephe002607mbp/alexanderhstephe002607mbp_djvu.txt
Unofficially he had a secretary, a young man named William Hidell, whom he ...... in a carriage said: "Little Alec will surely die when this excitement is passed.

Quote
Family relationship of Lee Harvey Oswald and General Robert ...
https://famouskin.com › famous-kin-chart › kin=4640+robert+e+lee
Genealogy chart showing how Lee Harvey Oswald (Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy) is the 5th cousin 5 ... Lee Harvey Oswald Robert E. Lee ...

The Tomb Of Robert E. Lee Oswald, Father Of Lee Harvey ...
https://www.luckybeantours.com/the-tomb-of-robert-e-lee-oswald-father-of-lee-harvey-oswald/name=9730+lee+harvey+oswald&kin=4640+robert+e+lee&via=24867+john+carter
Jan 2, 2017 - It has been said that Oswald's troubles began two months before his birth in 1939, when his father, Robert E. Lee Oswald, died of a sudden ...

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt
...The prosecution in criminal matters typically bears the burden of proof and is required to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that in order for a defendant to be found guilty the case presented by the prosecution must be enough to remove any reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury that the defendant is guilty of the crime with which they are charged. The term "reasonable doubt" can be criticised for having a circular definition. Therefore, jurisdictions reliant on this standard of proof often rely on additional or supplemental measures, such as specific jury directions, which simplify or qualify what is meant by a "reasonable doubt" (see below for examples). The principle for the requirement that a criminal case to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (as opposed to on the balance of probabilities) can be traced to Blackstone's formulation that "t is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", i.e. if there is any doubt that a person is guilty, it is better that they be acquitted than to risk an innocent person being convicted....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 22, 2019, 12:55:45 AM
Thumb1:

The eyewitnesses who identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.


Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.


JohnM

Mr Mytton....You omitted the important pat of Dom Benavides testimony....

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

It should be perfectly clear that the man did NOT unload his revolver in the manner a Smith & Wesson revolver is unloaded....  He unloaded the spent shells  ONE- AT - A- TIME .......Whereas the S&W is unloaded by pushing the ejector rod and emptying all shells at once.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 22, 2019, 01:02:44 AM
I haven't seen enough evidence in this thread to acquit Oswald. If I was on a jury I would need a lot more than has been presented here by his defenders.

You seem to think that it is the task of a juror to assume somebody guilty unless his innocence is proven. It that's the way you think it works, you should never serve on a jury and move to Salem as quickly as possible.

LOL!.......  Mr Hardaker would probably feel at home in North Korea.    A place where if the government says that you've committed a crime ....Then you are guilty and must prove that you are not ( an impossible task)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 22, 2019, 01:34:28 AM
Correct.  The police are lying, not Oswald.   ::)

Bill, when it's all said and done, these clowns here just can't accept the fact that the cop-killing Oswald got exactly what he deserved.

Correct.  The police are lying, not Oswald.   ::)   There's a huge difference..... Between the police who are charged with working with the evidence and the FACTS, and the accused who may have legitimate reason for keeping information he possesses a secret.

Lee Oswald was trying to keep his status as a government agent a secret.  I would remind you that Dulles stated that he would expect an agent to lie, even under oath. 

There is no legitimate reason for Henry Wade, the District Attorney to boldly lie and tell reporters that Lee Oswald's prints had been found on the rifle.....

Now then...What was it you were saying about it's ok for the police to lie......


Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 01:57:25 AM
Correct.  The police are lying, not Oswald.   ::)

Bill, when it's all said and done, these clowns here just can't accept the fact that the cop-killing Oswald got exactly what he deserved.

No, (an if-guilty) Oswald deserved the chair and the enormous stress leading up to it... not a surprise attack that left him no time for regrets.

Edit: (an-if-guilty)
12:42am EST

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 04:52:27 AM
Gee, a cop repeats a story that his fellow “blue wall of silence” cop told him.

How unusual.  ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 06:01:09 AM
Gee, a cop repeats a story that his fellow “blue wall of silence” cop told him.

How unusual.  ::)

Not only cops, Brewer saw a gun in Oswald's hand and with all the commotion couldn't see where the gun came from, but since the same story is corroborated we know what happened. Now I suppose Brewer lied too, how much BS was going down that day?

Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN - When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER - McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER - No.


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 06:35:34 AM
Not only cops, Brewer saw a gun in Oswald's hand and with all the commotion couldn't see where the gun came from, but since the same story is corroborated we know what happened. Now I suppose Brewer lied too, how much BS was going down that day?

Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN - When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER - McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER - No.


JohnM

Exactly

In CT Wonderland, if everybody didn't see everything each other witness saw, it's hearsay.

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 06:52:07 AM
Not only cops, Brewer saw a gun in Oswald's hand and with all the commotion couldn't see where the gun came from, but since the same story is corroborated we know what happened. Now I suppose Brewer lied too, how much BS was going down that day?

Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN - When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER - McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER - No.


JohnM

Brewer, "I am just 22 and I don't, mind lying..."

Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235&search=ibm#relPageId=10&tab=page
....
1. Dealey Plaza Echo, Volume 1, Issue 3, pg 5
Found in: Dealey Plaza Echo
They were from IBM - they were in the neighbourhood. I had known them ever since I came there." (3) ILG: "Customers?"
No, they weren't customers. They'd just come in and kill time and lounge around. And they just stood around and talked, the IBM...
Don't you hate it when that happens....lazy fnu-lnu, IBM men, lounging around, day in, day out. happens all the time....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 06:58:08 AM
Brewer, "I am just 22 and I don't, mind lying..."
Don't you hate it when that happens....lazy fnu-lnu, IBM men, lounging around, day in, day out. happens all the time....

So he had some friends who worked for IBM, I don't see the problem?
Iacoletti works for IBM, is he involved too?

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 07:14:07 AM
So he had some friends who worked for IBM, I don't see the problem?
Iacoletti works for IBM, is he involved too?

JohnM


So, Oswald's daddy, his brother, and himself all had names memorializing CSA army commanding general, Robert E. Lee, Oswald tries to phone a friend from TSBD jail who was an NSA purple principal feeding info daily to McCloy during WWII.
and just happened to put that friend's wife's very rare, maiden name on the revolver order blank to vouch for CSA VP, "little Alec's" secretary, William Hidell ! Hidell's family had moved to Texas, operating a hardware store named Hidell's. but FBI did not notice. No harm, no foul....definitely L-N....

Quote
https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/cryptologic-spectrum/translator.pdf
A Translator Extraordinaire - National Security Agency
https://www.nsa.gov › declassified-documents › cryptologic-spectrum › tra...
Frank B. Rowlett. Abraham Sinkov. Solomon Kullback. John B. Hurt. H. Lawrence Clark. Title. Cryptgraphic Clerk. Jun. Cryptanalyst. Jun. Cryptanalyst. Jun.
[PDF]

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4370541101_59a8da56fc_o.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtDrittel.jpg)
Quote
Name:   Ana Drittelle Hurt
[Ana Drittelle Drittell]
Social Security #:   116091131
Gender:   Female
Birth Date:   1 Jan 1906
Birth Place:   Other Country
Death Date:   24 Sep 1982
Death Place:   Los Angeles
Mother's Maiden Name:   Krasner
Father's Surname:   Drittell

Shhhh....'sposed to be an "LN" !

Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96326&relPageId=13&search=mohrenschildt_cellist
4. INFORMATION CONCERNING MISS YAEKO OKUI WHO ATTENDED PARTY AT DALLAS, T, pg 13
Found in: Oswald 201 File, Vol 42
LEV-ARONSON, a noted Dallas cellist and music teacher wh+ she believes to be of Russian origin and who has .many, Russian-speaking friends in this area

How's that old joke go, "How do you get from Russia to Carnegie Hall," or was it TSBD? Answer, practice!
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtAnaDrittel1968.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 09:17:20 AM
So, we know for certain Oswald was an LN accused in 1977 in the HSCA investigation attempting to place a call to one John Hurt from the Dallas city jail on the night before Ruby gunned him down in the basement of the same building.

My own opinion about this is not much of an issue. Suprisingly, I am working from WR and HSCA named leads, John Hurt & Lev Aronson and the names on the alleged Tippit murder weapon purchase coupon names, Drittal and Hidell.

Here, John Hurt's wife, a solo cellist, name spelled here remarkably similarly to the last name of the person "vouching for Hidell" in 1963, is reported performing in NYC in the same week in Nov., 1940 as Piatigorsky, and his 1976 obituary in
images below describes him performing in 1939 at same NYC Town Hall location as Ana Drittel.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtDrittelAronsonTeacherPiatigorsky.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtAronsonTeacherPiatigorsky.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2nWpkcSd8PU/WBXAch2MrmI/AAAAAAABary Kampyk/lvl8RzfWU2YosGIosRltCWT9BDiI0sF6wCLcB/s1600/CE790.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAronsonPiatigorskyObit1976_1of2.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAronsonPiatigorskyObit1976_2of2a.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAronsonPiatigorskyObit1976_2of2b.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 03:51:05 PM
Not only cops, Brewer saw a gun in Oswald's hand and with all the commotion couldn't see where the gun came from,

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 03:52:44 PM
So he had some friends who worked for IBM, I don't see the problem?
Iacoletti works for IBM, is he involved too?

I missed the memo that says hang out and shoot the breeze in a shoe store on a weekday.

P.S. looks like “Mytton”, who hides behind a fake name has been cyberstalking me.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 04:01:13 PM
Thumb1:

So the Dallas Police put a loaded weapon into Oswalds hand, nice theory, Bro.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 04:06:03 PM
I missed the memo that says hang out and shoot the breeze in a shoe store on a weekday.

P.S. looks like “Mytton”, who hides behind a fake name has been cyberstalking me.

No, to go and hang out friends means you gotta have friends.

PS, unlike you who was caught googling my name, my knowledge of your "job" came from an Ed Forum post, big difference, but nice try.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 04:08:00 PM
So the Dallas Police put a loaded weapon into Oswalds hand, nice theory, Bro.

Nice strawman, bro. Who said the gun that Brewer claimed to see from across a dark theater was even loaded?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Nice strawman, bro. Who said the gun that Brewer claimed to see from across a dark theater was even loaded?

Ok, they put an unloaded gun in his hand, whatever floats your boat.

JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 04:14:51 PM
No, to go and hang out friends means you gotta have friends.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/K6XkBryvr6vbW/giphy.gif)

Quote
PS, unlike you who was caught googling my name, my knowledge of your "job" came from an Ed Forum post, big difference, but nice try.

Why is that a “big difference”? And how exactly was I “caught” googling your name? Typical “Mytton”, calling an assumption a fact.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 07:26:41 PM
Ok, they put an unloaded gun in his hand, whatever floats your boat.

JohnM

Good one

Yeah, Oswald was attempting to commit suicide-by-cop
 ::)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 08:28:00 PM
Oswald was attempting to watch a movie before he was illegally searched, detained, beaten up and arrested for murder because a shoe salesman thought he looked funny.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 22, 2019, 08:52:29 PM
Quote
Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident?
Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots.
Mr. BALL And what? You looked down that way?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you see?
Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.
Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back?
Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Quote
Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.
Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with.
Mr. BALL. What's his name?
Mr. SMITH. James Markham.
Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?
Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a----
Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you?
Mr. SMITH. The FBI.
Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith.htm
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 09:14:22 PM
Oswald was attempting to watch a movie before he was illegally searched, detained, beaten up and arrested for murder because a shoe salesman thought he looked funny.

Mr. BALL. What did he say.
Mr. FRITZ. He denied it---that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."


JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Charles Collins on November 22, 2019, 11:38:29 PM
Correct.  The police are lying, not Oswald.   ::)

Bill, when it's all said and done, these clowns here just can't accept the fact that the cop-killing Oswald got exactly what he deserved.


At the time, there was a lot of other people angry enough to do what Ruby had the balls to do. He was wrong to take justice into his own hands. And he paid the price for it. I believe that Oswald would have been convicted and fried for his crimes.

In one way, I am glad that Oswald didn't get a chance to experience the attention for very long. However, he did legally have a right to his day in court. The thought that brings closure to me is that LHO is in hell and has to endure for eternity Satan taunting him with the fact that most people don't believe that he was capable of pulling this off all by himself. For someone with his ego that would be hell in itself...
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 12:05:59 AM

At the time, there was a lot of other people angry enough to do what Ruby had the balls to do. He was wrong to take justice into his own hands. And he paid the price for it. I believe that Oswald would have been convicted and fried for his crimes.

In one way, I am glad that Oswald didn't get a chance to experience the attention for very long. However, he did legally have a right to his day in court. The thought that brings closure to me is that LHO is in hell and has to endure for eternity Satan taunting him with the fact that most people don't believe that he was capable of pulling this off all by himself. For someone with his ego that would be hell in itself...
Charles. your post gives an impression Ruby was disgruntled random guy in reaction to Oswald.... Ruby the outraged American gunning down the evil doer, still welcome to date the daughter of any cop in the DPD basement after he was
disarmed and wrestled to the ground. I was in junior high school on November 24, but I picked up on the general reaction of the adults in my life at that time. Ruby was assigned/coerced to be the closer, plain as the noses on our faces. Isn't that what this is still all about?

Criticism pf lack of FBI reaction to details collected by Ruby acquaintance Bobby Gene Moore, below article image.:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettRubySansoneBobbyGeneMoore_2Aof2.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/RubySansoneBosco.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettIanniWifeObitBoscoCivelloCampisi1970.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneDPDfamiliesIanni.jpg)

Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rich_n.htm
......
Mr SPECTER. What was the purpose of Jack Ruby's visiting Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Sometimes he would be mad about something, and mad at an employee, or sometimes he would stop by for breakfast after he closed his club.
Mr SPECTER. Was there ever any romantic connection between Jack Ruby and Kay?
Mr OLSEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr SPECTER. It was just a cordial relationship which would lead him to stop over and pay her a visit and have breakfast or something to that effect?
Mr OLSEN. Yes.
Mr SPECTER. Was Ruby friendly with many police officers employed by the Dallas Police Department?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. What were the circumstances surrounding his friendship for police officers?
Mr OLSEN. He seemed to like police officers.
Mr SPECTER. Was there any special reason for his affinity for police officers, or for liking them especially?
Mr OLSEN. No, he Just seemed to be friendly with all of them, wanted to know them.
Mr SPECTER. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Did you know him very well?
Mr OLSEN. No, sir.

Charles, will you agree Chief Curry is grossly understating, (giving perjured testimony) how many officers of his command were personally acquainted with Jack Ruby? What would motivate the Chief to deliberately mislead the American people?
Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/curry1.htm

Mr. RANKIN - Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.
The impression has been given that a great many-of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - What is the fact in that regard?
Mr. CURRY - The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby
are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course----
Mr. RANKIN - How many men would that be?
Mr. CURRY - I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.
Mr. RANKIN - How large is your police force?
Mr. CURRY - Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.
I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself....
Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=955&relPageId=138&search=ruby_skating
 
1. HSCA Report, Volume IX, pg 130
Found in: HSCA Appendix Volumes
for the christening of his child, born in 1963. (59) Detective Cody has said that he and Ruby went ice skating together, adding that Ruby was an avid
Captain Will Fritz, the head of homicide, strongly de- nied knowing Ruby,(64) saying that the first time he saw Ruby was when Ruby was arrested following
) Reagan Thurman, a long-time friend of Ruby's, said the same. (71) Despite Ruby's many police friendships, incidents similar to Detective Cody's ice-skating

Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rich_n.htm

...Mr. HUBERT. What customers did you serve hard liquor to?
Mrs. RICH. Whomever I was told to.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know their names?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn't quote you names, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to serve them?
Mrs. RICH. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of people. Then whenever he would come in and say, "This is private stock stuff," that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was and get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular group--who did it consist of?
Mrs. RICH. The police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that you could serve them hard liquor?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct....

Didn't Curry first answer,

Quote
....Mr. RANKIN - Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; I did, yes, sir.

Was Curry'd testimony about this actually worth anything? What about your opinion? You give no indication you have any inclination Jack Ruby was handpicked for this "witness tampering," by other hands...

Maybe I am jealous of you, if you do indeed have superior discernment permitting you to accurately determine what is reliable
info and what is not. I also wish I had your confidence, if you are actually better informed than I am always  trying to become.
Quote
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/20/exclusive-jfk-assassination-witness-speaks-for-1st-time/
Exclusive: JFK Assassination Witness Speaks For 1st Time
CBS4 Investigative Reporter Jilda Unruh Contributed To This Report
November 20, 2013 at 6:13 pm

....What hasn’t been shared before is what Nelson said happened just before the shooting and then in the immediate aftermath.

According to Nelson, right before Oswald was brought to the basement, a Dallas Police decoy car was brought to the basement and plain clothes cops were put inside the car to distract the media from the real transfer vehicle.

The decoy car drove up the north ramp, which Nelson said was actually the entry ramp to the basement.

“They drove up the north ramp which was actually the entry ramp into the basement and drove around the block,” Nelson said.

Nelson said the lieutenant driving the decoy car came walking back through his area after parking in the basement again. Nelson said he was positive that Ruby had not passed him to get into the basement.

According to Nelson, Lieutenant Sam Pierce said Ruby walked right by the decoy car and walked down the north ramp into the basement. Shortly after the shooting, however, Nelson was told Dallas Chief of Police Jesse Curry wanted to see him.

When Nelson got to Chief Curry’s office, he saw Lieutenant Pierce was already in the office. The chief told Nelson, “R.C., this isn’t going to be held against you with all the TV cameras that were coming into the basement.”

Nelson thought Chief Curry was implying that Ruby had gotten past him. Nelson said he told the chief that, “You can tell them anything you want, but Ruby didn’t come by me!”...

Charles, have you researched DPD detective Sansone and his ties to Civello in-law Phil Bosco? Sansone killed a man while moonlighting behind the liquor store counter of one of this organized crime crew. Curry was aware of Sansone's reputation, and FBI records indicate the only trust they put in DPD related to their intel about Sansone was in intel sharing with Lt. Jack Revill.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81867&search=waggoner_and+gambler#relPageId=3&tab=page
Link above displays some of the =4redacted details....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneDPDCivelloCousinDetWardell.jpg)


!972: Sansone and Bosco and their LCN associates still conducting "business" as usual. on Ross Street:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339051/m1/1/
 (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339051/m1/1/)

1955, off-duty Det. Sansone shoots alleged armed robber in LCN associate owned, Ross St. Liquor Store he is part-time clerk at.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneLiquorStoreShooting2604Ross1955.jpg)[/img]
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneDPDIanniJCcolletta.jpg)

...and Charles, Irv Kupcinet just happened to write a column in Chicago Sun-Times with Ruby life-long buddy Jimmy Colitz who co-owned the Clover Bar next to the offices in the Sherman Hotel of that Hotel group. The president of the Hotel Group was Pat Hoy, directly linked to Tony Accardo's #2, Gus Alex. In 1958, Howard Willens's father Joseph moved himself and Willens's mom into the residence directly adjacent to Accardo's resident in River Forest, IL. Read the Warren Report.

WC Asst. Counsel BrianJenner Jr was personal lawyer of Henry Crown, who hired Pat Hoy to be a General Dynamics V.P.
Howard Willens testified to HSCA he not only made the decision to end the WC investigation of Jack Ruby, he also was responsible for structuring the areas of the WC each Asst. Counsel was responsible for. I'll leave it to you to research the investigative responsibilities BrianJenner was assigned to conduct.

Irv Kupcinet and his wife Essie spent a portion of ever evening from 1943 to early 2000s in "Booth 1" of the Pump Room restaurant in the Ambassador East Hotel in Chocago. Patrick Hoy had risen from Maitre D of that room to President of the group. His boss was Ernest L Byfield. After Byfield died in 1950, Ernie Jr. represented the owners of the Hotel group as chairman. Ernie Jr's mom just happened to be JFK's Glen Ora weekend White House  landlady from Nov., 1960 until spring, 1963.

Ernie Jr's wife's (Vala Osterman) sister was wife of Placido Eversun, business partner/first cousin of Rionda and George Braga.
Ernie Jr's second wife, Diana, married elderly JFK defense secretary Robert S McNamara shortly after Ernie Jr. died.

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/16754-was-irv-kupcinets-role-obscured-a-consequence-of-penn-joness-writing/
Was Irv Kupcinet's Role Obscured A Consequence of Penn Jones's Writing? - 126,531 views
By Guest Tom Scully, October 12, 2010

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/kup-vs-jfk/Content?oid=881114
Kup vs. JFK
Chronicle of a Columnist's Obsession
By Jim Kielty  Year In Review archives »
December 24, 1992  NEWS & POLITICS | YEAR IN REVIEW
In an essay on the Oliver Stone film JFK, published a month after his laudatory review in the Sun-Times, Roger Ebert wrote: "Never in my years as a newspaperman have I seen one subject pummeled so mercilessly and joylessly as this movie that questions the official wisdom on the assassination of John F. Kennedy."

Ebert didn't have to look far to find the chief Chicago-area pummeler: his Sun-Times colleague Irv Kupcinet has repeatedly used his column to flail JFK, Oliver Stone, and anyone else who has dared to challenge the findings of the Warren Commission report.

Between December 17 of last year, when he first reviewed JFK as the lead item in his column, and May 22 of this year, when the Sun-Times reviewed the home video version (and I stopped counting), Kup ran more than two dozen items on Stone, his film, and other Kennedy assassination subjects. He also called for the opening of sealed government files on the assassination, venturing that the information contained therein will put an end to "far-fetched conspiracy theories," by which he seems to mean anything other than the Warren Commission report.....
.......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 01:28:16 AM
Continued from post on bottom of last page.:

Charles, DPD detective Charles Sansone was not arrested until 1966, later reinstated to DPD Detective, but he still got his DPD pension later and was welcomed
at annual picnics of DPD veterans....details of his arrest and his ties to LCN in Dallas.:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81867&search=waggoner_and+gambler#relPageId=3&tab=page
Link above displays some of the =4redacted details....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneDPDCivelloCousinDetWardell.jpg)

Names here ring a bell? Det. Sansone ties to the Campisis brothers. Wasn't Ruby associated with the Campisiis?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=77634&relPageId=8&search=revill_and%20sansone

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/docid-32290855-1.pdf
Pg 1. January, 1962

RE~ PHILIP STEPHEN BOSCO p aka. AR . ~ IGA {DL 92=331) .
Ol!l 1/20/ 6'·2 v SA BAR.RET1' observed t.he car of Dallas PD police detectiv® (taJ.uto theft squ~d) CHARLES SANSONE, parked at Boscous service sta.tioJ.m. The car 9 a ·l955 pink and white Buick

!972: Sansone and Bosco and their LCN associates still conducting "business" as usual. on Ross Street:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339051/m1/1/
 (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339051/m1/1/)

1955, off-duty Det. Sansone shoots alleged armed robber in LCN associate owned, Ross St. Liquor Store he is part-time clerk at.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneLiquorStoreShooting2604Ross1955.jpg)

That 2604 Ross Liquor store:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/LiggettSansoneDPDfamiliesColletta2604Ross.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 23, 2019, 04:02:58 AM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith.htm
I guess the post above just blew by and no one gets it. More concerned with piddly poop and bickering than with facts....
Quote
Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.
Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?
Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.
Fact...Smith was some nearly 400 ft away from the Tippit shooting. How could he identify anyone from that far away? Really great eyes huh?
Quote
408 E 10th St
Dallas, TX 75203
Head northeast on E 10th St toward N Denver St
Destination will be on the left
397 ft
505 E 10th St
Dallas, TX 75203---google maps
Smith ..saw the [the policeman] falling and the [shooter] running away at the same time? Maybe there was more than one shooter after all.
Interesting that the FBI located him and his buddy Jimmy Burt.
Quote
JIMMY EARL BURT, General Delivery stated that on November 22, 1963 he was living at 505 E. 10th Street, Dallas, Texas which is the residence of his father—in—law, DAVID SHAEFER. He and a friend WILLIAM SMITH were sitting in his brother, BILLY BURT's house located at the corner of 9th and Denver Streets, Dallas. It was some time after lunch when they heard two gunshots. He and SMITH immediately ran from the house toward his car, a 1952 two—tone blue Ford which was parked facing south on Denver Street. As they ran from the house they heard four more shots making a total of six. BURT Said he drove his car to the next intersection which is Denver and 10th Streets and turned west on 10th. He immediately saw a police car parked at the curb in the middle of the block. It was parked facing east on 10th Street. A police officer was lying on the street near the left front wheel. BURT later recognized him as being an officer who frequented that neighborhood. This particular officer was known by the name "Friendly" to the residents of that area.
BURT parked his car in front of the police car on the same side of the street with the front end facing the west. He and SMITH jumped out of the car and as they did so he looked west on 10th Street. At that moment he caught a glimpse of a man running on the sidewalk on the south side of the street. The man at this point had reached the intersection of 10th and Patton Streets. He described this man as a white male, approximately 5'8". He was wearing a light colored short jacket. BURT stated he could not describe the man further as he was never closer than 50 to 60 yards from the man. He said at one point he did notice the man had a pistol in his right hand. Although he is familiar with hand weapons he said that because of the distance he could not describe the pistol. At the intersection of 10th and Patton Streets the man ran south on Patton Street. BURT said he ran to the intersection of 10th and Patton and when he was close enough to Patton Street to see to the south he saw the man running into an alley located between 10th and Jefferson Avenue on Patton Street. The man ran in the alley to the right and would be running west at this point.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
I have often read that this was not Tippit's regular beat. Why did Tippit 'frequent the neighborhood'? Sources said that he had a girlfriend who lived nearby.
Burt and Smith hopped into a car and drove to the shooting site? Wow...too lazy to run? And they still managed to park the car next to the squad car and see the shooter [or one of the shooters] still running away from the scene? I would say that this was impossible.
Burt said he heard a total of six shots. Think his ears were as good as his eyes?
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 23, 2019, 02:14:35 PM
Up until recently the chances of taking prints off a spent shell was practically impossible but the bullet recovered from within the rifle could have a print that is if Oswald wasn't wearing gloves or he didn't smear the print.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5421537/Scientists-lift-fingerprints-fired-bullets.html

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/03/fingerprints.bullets

JohnM
Consider the source
Oh! that's right, you believe anything
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 23, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
I guess the post above just blew by and no one gets it. More concerned with piddly poop and bickering than with facts....Fact...Smith was some nearly 400 ft away from the Tippit shooting. How could he identify anyone from that far away? Really great eyes huh?Smith ..saw the [the policeman] falling and the [shooter] running away at the same time? Maybe there was more than one shooter after all.
Interesting that the FBI located him and his buddy Jimmy Burt.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
I have often read that this was not Tippit's regular beat. Why did Tippit 'frequent the neighborhood'? Sources said that he had a girlfriend who lived nearby.
Burt and Smith hopped into a car and drove to the shooting site? Wow...too lazy to run? And they still managed to park the car next to the squad car and see the shooter [or one of the shooters] still running away from the scene? I would say that this was impossible.
Burt said he heard a total of six shots. Think his ears were as good as his eyes?


Here's another witness who said the killer's hair was different than Lee Oswald's....

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?
Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television----
Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?
Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.


So Helen Markham said Tippit's killer hair was different than lee Oswald's.....And Dom Benavides said the man's hair was different than Lee Oswald's, and here's Mr Smith telling Ball that the man's hair was different than Lee Oswald's....
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 26, 2019, 05:24:49 PM
Anything wrong with this picture?

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkham1964EastEighth.jpg)

Helen Markham told WC her address was at 328 East Ninth.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=313&search=markham_and%20eighth

Harry Olsen said he was guarding an "estate" on East Eighth, describing it in 1967 as a "ramshackle" house.

FBI received a tip Oswald was not the shooter. It simply is supported by,

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62271&relPageId=172&search=%22east_eighth%22

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkhamAddressTipToFBI.jpg)

Likely this was published late 1962 - early 1963
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitOlsen328halfEastEighthDallas1963.jpg)





Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 27, 2019, 12:36:15 AM
Consider the source
Oh! that's right, you believe anything

The burning question is:.....   Was the murder of Tippit, plan "B" which was designed to get the Patsy ( Lee Oswald) shot and killed by an angry cop ???


OR ...Was the murder of Tippit merely co-incidental .... And Tippit just happened to stumble upon a desperate fugitive who was a cold blooded killer who was an expert with a revolver.   ????
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 27, 2019, 06:05:03 AM
Alright, now this inquiry  I've only so far presented on this page, gets curiouser and curiouser.
How & Why? (Please do not post that William Arthur Smith is FNU Smith linked to 328-1/2 East Eighth of the FBI report I included in my last post.
is the same person as Wlliam Arthur Smith. I've already presented proof tending to contradict that assumption!)

Tippit shooting investigation witness Helen Markham, address 328-1/2 East Ninth Street,

Tippit shooting investigation witness William Arthur Smith, address 328-1/2 East Davis Street,

Tippit shooting investigation witness, FNU Smith, linked in mailed note to FBI, 11 December, 1963, with address 328-1/2 East Eighth Street
Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith.htm
......
The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Sit down.
Mr. BALL. State your name, please.
Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith.
Mr. BALL. And where do you live?
Mr. SMITH. 328 1/2 East Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?
Mr. SMITH. Twenty.
Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?
Mr. SMITH. My mother.
Mr. BALL. At this address?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.....
.....
Mr. BALL. What did you see?
Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.
Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.
Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with.
Mr. BALL. What's his name?
Mr. SMITH. James Markham.
Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?
Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a----
Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you?
Mr. SMITH. The FBI.
Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?
Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television----
Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?
Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.
Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television?
Mr. SMITH. Looked blond.
Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
84


Mr. BALL. By whom?
Mr. SMITH. FBI agent.
Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture?
Mr. SMITH. Brown.
Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?
Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.
Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?
Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes.
Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?
Mr. SMITH. No.
Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where you were standing?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?
Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.
Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat----
Mr. SMITH. This looks like it.
Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?
Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.
Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?
.......
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 27, 2019, 06:44:52 AM
Continued from my lasr post....this smells, it REEKS OF OFFICIAL OBSTRUCTION!

Confirmation of WR (on the record) "testimony" of Helen Markham's son's friend, William Arthur Davis (address is 328-1/2 East Davis, as in my last post)

Quote
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41&relPageId=92&search="william_arthur%20smith"

2. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VII, pg 82
Found in: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits
That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this—so many squads getting called to report there, then I went. Mr. ELY.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301
William Arthur Smith. Mr. BALL. And where do you live? Mr. SMITH. 328% East Davis. Mr. BALL. What is your age? Mr. SMITH. Twenty. Mr. BALL.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search="william_arthur+smith"#relPageId=243&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search="william_arthur+smith"#relPageId=243&tab=page)
VS FBI report of December, 12, 1963 of interview of "witness" Davis's alleged father, Arthur T Davis:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkhamAddressTipToFBI_121263.jpg)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=246&search=arthur

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitFBIWilliamArthurSmith121363_1of2.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitFBIWilliamArthurSmith121363_2of2.jpg)

Rating aggravating circumstances that in the aggregate, indicated corrupted intent of WC, DPD, FBI in what officials stated and published, vs actual evidence.
One to Ten rating assigned to each step or development after DPD Officer JD Tippit was shot and killed within one hour of the Assassination of JFK.
Merely suspicious details not yet assigned severity rating.

10. Suspect Oswald shot and mortally wounded in DPD basement, surrounded by DPD officers and while handcuffed to one detective escorting him.
Jack Ruby, known to many DPD officers "escaped notice" as he entered the DPD basement, made his way to Oswald, pulled his revolver shooting Oswald at point blank range.

9. The FBI reported receiving anonymous letter in 2nd week of December, 1963, stating FNU Smith said  Oswald was not the shooter of JD Tippit and address 328-1/2 East Eighth St.
Harry Olsen, a DPD officer, whose fiance was employed by Ruby for 28 months, and another DPD officer he claimed not to remember identity of, were described
by Olsen providing 24 hour security at an "estate" at unstated East 8th St. address in close proximity to address of Tippit shooting witness William Arthur Smith.
No additional details were provided by Olsen, save for an admission he and his fiance spent some minutes conversing with Ruby about 12 hours after Tippit shot.
Smith was an admitted felon on probation and his friend observing the Tippit shooting with him was an AWOL US serviceman. Smith, a friend of son of Tippit shooting witness, Mrs. Markham, claimed he discussed the shooting with her very soon after.
Despite DPD's Olsen admitting spending that day in close proximity to the address included in the anonymous tip, save for naming FNU Smith with the address FBI  reported interviewing witness Smith's father, prompted by the identical address being described in the anonymous tip, witness Smith failing to come forward to report witnessing DPD's Tippit's shooting, Mrs. Markham failing to mention to investigators her post shooting conversation with Smith, and the FBI's own confusion about Smith and his family residing at 328-1/2 8th St., an unusual street address number identical to Mrs. Markham's address on East Ninth, the FBI seems to have conducted no further follow-up in reaction to the anonymous tip saying FNU Smith, 328-1/2 East 8th, influenced the letter writer to share with the tip with FBI that Oswald was not the shooter of Tippit, the WC testimony of witness Smith was published in the WR stating Smith testified his street address was 328-1/2 East Davis.  DPD Chief Curry testified he had looked into how many DPD officers under him were acquainted with and interacted with Jack Ruby, then contradicted himself about the results of that inquiry, offering only reassurance there were not many.


Troubling and suspicious examples. Trust and cooperation between DPD and FBI began to erode by the morning after the JFK and Tippit shootings, cemented a day later in reaction by the FBI to the shooting of Oswald by Ruby in the DPD's basement. The DPD developed valid suspicion of the FBI's awareness of and relationship with Oswald before November 22. The circumstances of the arrest of Oswald at the Texas Theatre were controversial and Harry Olsen, who had moved to Long Beach with his fiance by February, 1964, said during a 1967 interview DPD Det. Gerry Hill was probably the closest to Ruby of all of Chief Curry's officers, changing the description of the East 8th St. location he was guarding at the time Tippit was shot from 'an estate," to a "ramshackle house". Det. Gerry Hill was associated with recovery of empty revolver husks at Tippit shooting scene, as was witness Virginia Davis who misrepresented her age to DPD  and months later, to the WC. Key witness William Whaley told the press he had been awarded the Navy's highest combat award, had moved his own age to three years older sometime after filing his military draft registration in 1942, and abandoned his first-born son and namesake. Mary Bledsoe, a witness who described encountering Oswald on a city bus just before he approached William Whaley for a taxi ride away from the JFK shooting scene. Mary Bledsoe had an aunt identical to the aunt of notorious Dallas underworld figure and a JFK Assassination subject in his own rite, Russell Douglas Matthews.
DPD claimed after taking Oswald into custody and searching him, he was permitted to moved around the DPD, allegedly in possession of several loaded rounds
of the Tippit shooting revolver.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 27, 2019, 04:28:56 PM
Continued from my lasr post....this smells, it REEKS OF OFFICIAL OBSTRUCTION!

Confirmation of WR (on the record) "testimony" of Helen Markham's son's friend, William Arthur Davis (address is 328-1/2 East Davis, as in my last post)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search="william_arthur+smith"#relPageId=243&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search="william_arthur+smith"#relPageId=243&tab=page)
VS FBI report of December, 12, 1963 of interview of "witness" Davis's alleged father, Arthur T Davis:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkhamAddressTipToFBI_121263.jpg)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=246&search=arthur

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitFBIWilliamArthurSmith121363_1of2.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitFBIWilliamArthurSmith121363_2of2.jpg)

Rating aggravating circumstances that in the aggregate, indicated corrupted intent of WC, DPD, FBI in what officials stated and published, vs actual evidence.
One to Ten rating assigned to each step or development after DPD Officer JD Tippit was shot and killed within one hour of the Assassination of JFK.
Merely suspicious details not yet assigned severity rating.

10. Suspect Oswald shot and mortally wounded in DPD basement, surrounded by DPD officers and while handcuffed to one detective escorting him.
Jack Ruby, known to many DPD officers "escaped notice" as he entered the DPD basement, made his way to Oswald, pulled his revolver shooting Oswald at point blank range.

9. The FBI reported receiving anonymous letter in 2nd week of December, 1963, stating FNU Smith said  Oswald was not the shooter of JD Tippit and address 328-1/2 East Eighth St.
Harry Olsen, a DPD officer, whose fiance was employed by Ruby for 28 months, and another DPD officer he claimed not to remember identity of, were described
by Olsen providing 24 hour security at an "estate" at unstated East 8th St. address in close proximity to address of Tippit shooting witness William Arthur Smith.
No additional details were provided by Olsen, save for an admission he and his fiance spent some minutes conversing with Ruby about 12 hours after Tippit shot.
Smith was an admitted felon on probation and his friend observing the Tippit shooting with him was an AWOL US serviceman. Smith, a friend of son of Tippit shooting witness, Mrs. Markham, claimed he discussed the shooting with her very soon after.
Despite DPD's Olsen admitting spending that day in close proximity to the address included in the anonymous tip, save for naming FNU Smith with the address FBI  reported interviewing witness Smith's father, prompted by the identical address being described in the anonymous tip, witness Smith failing to come forward to report witnessing DPD's Tippit's shooting, Mrs. Markham failing to mention to investigators her post shooting conversation with Smith, and the FBI's own confusion about Smith and his family residing at 328-1/2 8th St., an unusual street address number identical to Mrs. Markham's address on East Ninth, the FBI seems to have conducted no further follow-up in reaction to the anonymous tip saying FNU Smith, 328-1/2 East 8th, influenced the letter writer to share with the tip with FBI that Oswald was not the shooter of Tippit, the WC testimony of witness Smith was published in the WR stating Smith testified his street address was 328-1/2 East Davis.  DPD Chief Curry testified he had looked into how many DPD officers under him were acquainted with and interacted with Jack Ruby, then contradicted himself about the results of that inquiry, offering only reassurance there were not many.


Troubling and suspicious examples. Trust and cooperation between DPD and FBI began to erode by the morning after the JFK and Tippit shootings, cemented a day later in reaction by the FBI to the shooting of Oswald by Ruby in the DPD's basement. The DPD developed valid suspicion of the FBI's awareness of and relationship with Oswald before November 22. The circumstances of the arrest of Oswald at the Texas Theatre were controversial and Harry Olsen, who had moved to Long Beach with his fiance by February, 1964, said during a 1967 interview DPD Det. Gerry Hill was probably the closest to Ruby of all of Chief Curry's officers, changing the description of the East 8th St. location he was guarding at the time Tippit was shot from 'an estate," to a "ramshackle house". Det. Gerry Hill was associated with recovery of empty revolver husks at Tippit shooting scene, as was witness Virginia Davis who misrepresented her age to DPD  and months later, to the WC. Key witness William Whaley told the press he had been awarded the Navy's highest combat award, had moved his own age to three years older sometime after filing his military draft registration in 1942, and abandoned his first-born son and namesake. Mary Bledsoe, a witness who described encountering Oswald on a city bus just before he approached William Whaley for a taxi ride away from the JFK shooting scene. Mary Bledsoe had an aunt identical to the aunt of notorious Dallas underworld figure and a JFK Assassination subject in his own rite, Russell Douglas Matthews.
DPD claimed after taking Oswald into custody and searching him, he was permitted to moved around the DPD, allegedly in possession of several loaded rounds
of the Tippit shooting revolver.

this smells, it REEKS OF OFFICIAL OBSTRUCTION!

Yes indeed it does....  But that shouldn't be a surprise to you....  You should have concluded long ago that the FBI was NOT looking for evidence that would  contradict their ( Hoover's )  official tale, that Lee Harrrrrvey Osssswald was a no good commie rat who deserved to be lynched without a chance to prove his innocence.

Thank you for posting the FBI memo in which William Arthur Smith told the FBI agents James J. Ward and   Robert E. Basham, that he witnessed the murder of officer Tippit and the killer was NOT Lee Oswald.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 27, 2019, 06:48:16 PM
this smells, it REEKS OF OFFICIAL OBSTRUCTION!

Yes indeed it does....  But that shouldn't be a surprise to you....  You should have concluded long ago that the FBI was NOT looking for evidence that would  contradict their ( Hoover's )  official tale, that Lee Harrrrrvey Osssswald was a no good commie rat who deserved to be lynched without a chance to prove his innocence.

Thank you for posting the FBI memo in which William Arthur Smith told the FBI agents James J. Ward and   Robert E. Basham, that he witnessed the murder of officer Tippit and the killer was NOT Lee Oswald.

Walt, I found your reply unproductive, almost to the degree of deliberately distracting from the core point of the original research in my multi-post presentation, making your reply unproductive, even if your intent was not to distract or to be condescending (i.e., a "dick") in your tone. I find NEW things ( Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders (https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323/http://www.jfk.education/node/11) )
because, as a reasonable person, my bias is held in check. I discipline myself to reign in my bias to maintain an open mind to the degree it is even possible, and it ain't easy Walt, but i am encouraged because the result of reigning in my bias is doors open for me that will remain closed to you.

PLEASE DO NOT DISTRACT FURTHER BY NEEDLESSLY DISPLAYING THESE IMAGES IN YOUR INEVITABLE REPLY

New discovery and my core point.:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62271&relPageId=172&search=%22east_eighth%22
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62271&relPageId=172&search=%22east_eighth%22)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkhamAddressTipToFBIX.jpg)

The WC was interested, (crossing all of the "T's", dotting all of the "I's") certainly justified interest, until it wasn't.....

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Ward%20&%20Paul%20Their%20Files/Item%2032.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitOswaldWillensRequestSanders.jpg)

"Iris" certified the transcript of testimony was accurate, and it wasn't. Why did the WC staff not travel with it's own court stenographer?

East "Davis" unintentional error in transcription resulting in "a contribution" to a cover up that "just happened to" demphasize concern over omissions in Harry Olsen's testimony, or.....?
Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olsen_h.htm
...Mr SPECTER. Do you recall November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was assassinated?
Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr SPECTER. Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly what your activities were on that day.
Mr OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was working at an extra job guarding an estate.
Mr SPECTER. Whose estate was that?
Mr OLSEN. I don't remember the name.
Mr SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job?
Mr OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and he was doing work, but he was in the motor----
Mr SPECTER. Cade?
Mr OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able to work it.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?
Mr OLSEN. No.
Mr SPECTER. Where was that estate located?
Mr OLSEN. On 8th Street
in Dallas.
Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on which it was located?
Mr OLSEN. It's in the Oak Cliff area, it's approximately two blocks off of Stemmons.....

Link to map, including highlighting of loacation of Olsen's fiance's (employed by Jack Ruby) 325 North Ewing apartment.:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/325+North+Ewing+Avenue,+Dallas,+TX/328+E+8th+St,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7508445,-96.8181274,17z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e99a2138d32c9:0x91361e9ebf6a2606!2m2!1d-96.8130834!2d32.751954!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e999a2a745acd:0xd135d31b5d65515d!2m2!1d-96.819036!2d32.749733!3e0
https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/iapi/v1/exports/noauth/nbfiles/92827
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithDepositionCertification_1of2X.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithDepositionCertification_2of2X.jpg)

VS the "true and accurate" address of Smith and his parents, as reported in the anonymous tip mailed to the FBI from New Mexico, and, as reported by the FBI in their December, 1963 interviews of both William Arthur Smith and of his father.:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitNotOswaldFBI_121163ArthurTsmith_2X.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 27, 2019, 09:31:53 PM
Walt, I found your reply unproductive, almost to the degree of deliberately distracting from the core point of the original research in my multi-post presentation, making your reply unproductive, even if your intent was not to distract or to be condescending (i.e., a "dick") in your tone. I find NEW things ( Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders (https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231323/http://www.jfk.education/node/11) )
because, as a reasonable person, my bias is held in check. I discipline myself to reign in my bias to maintain an open mind to the degree it is even possible, and it ain't easy Walt, but i am encouraged because the result of reigning in my bias is doors open for me that will remain closed to you.

PLEASE DO NOT DISTRACT FURTHER BY NEEDLESSLY DISPLAYING THESE IMAGES IN YOUR INEVITABLE REPLY

New discovery and my core point.:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62271&relPageId=172&search=%22east_eighth%22
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62271&relPageId=172&search=%22east_eighth%22)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitMarkhamAddressTipToFBI.jpg)

The WC was interested, (crossing all of the "T's", dotting all of the "I's") certainly justified interest, until it wasn't.....

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Ward%20&%20Paul%20Their%20Files/Item%2032.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitOswaldWillensRequestSanders.jpg)

"Iris" certified the transcript of testimony was accurate, and it wasn't. Why did the WC staff not travel with it's own court stenographer?

East "Davis" unintentional error in transcription resulting in "a contribution" to a cover up that "just happened to" demphasize concern over omissions in Harry Olsen's testimony, or.....?https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/iapi/v1/exports/noauth/nbfiles/92827
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithDepositionCertification_1of2.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithDepositionCertification_2of2.jpg)

VS the "true and accurate" address of Smith and his parents, as reported in the anonymous tip mailed to the FBI from New Mexico, and, as reported by the FBI in their December, 1963 interviews of both William Arthur Smith and of his father.:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitNotOswaldFBI_121163ArthurTsmith_2.jpg)

Tom, are you too damned dumb to realize that William Arthur Smith moved around frequently....  In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis....but in November of 1963 he was living with his buddy Jimmy Burt ...on 8th street.    Smith was obviously a petty criminal who moved around frequently to keep ahead of the police.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 28, 2019, 05:29:15 AM
Tom, are you too damned dumb to realize that William Arthur Smith moved around frequently....  In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis....but in November of 1963 he was living with his buddy Jimmy Burt ...on 8th street.    Smith was obviously a petty criminal who moved around frequently to keep ahead of the police.
"Too dumb" he is, and it is simply because he has an exaggerated sense of self-importance.
I am not surprised he would then described himself as open-minded.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 28, 2019, 06:31:41 AM
Two prevaricators bashing me. Good one!

Tom, are you too damned dumb to realize that William Arthur Smith moved around frequently....  In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis....but in November of 1963 he was living with his buddy Jimmy Burt ...on 8th street.    Smith was obviously a petty criminal who moved around frequently to keep ahead of the police.

Walt, before John Iacoletti beats me to it, you made that up.... pulled it out your butt, still shiny and steaming....

Walt is claiming:
Helen Markham address, 328-1/2 East Ninth Street
William Arthur Smith address, 328-1/2 East Eighth Street, until some imaginary date, Smith's address changed to:
"In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis"

FBI reports, December, 1963:
Arthur T Smith, wife Eloise, and son William Arthur Smith address, 328-1/2 East Eighth Street
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search=%22william_arthur+smith%22#relPageId=243&tab=page
and https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=246&search=arthur


....William Arthur Smith moved around frequently....  In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis....but in November of 1963 he was living with his buddy Jimmy Burt ...on 8th street

"Too dumb" he is, and it is simply because he has an exaggerated sense of self-importance.
I am not surprised he would then described himself as open-minded.
Peter is a Trump apologist.

You are high.
You believe Trump did something illegal.
I say, "Is that so? Hmmmm based on what?"
I get it, you have one rule.
Trump is guilty unless I prove him to be innocent.
Yes I am right, you are high! Prove you are not.

Walt and Peter are not required to post links supporting any of their posted claims. No evidence exists supporting Arthur T Smith, his wife Eloise, or their son, William Arthur Smith, ever living on "East Davis".

Walt and Peter post that this is Tom Scully's fault. Tom Scully is obviously flawed because he is unwilling to simply post unsupported BS.

In late 1964, it looks like William Arthur Smith's parents moved from 328-1/2 East Eighth St. to East Ninth St., after never ever residing at any address on
East Davis Street.


(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithFather1965CityDir.jpg)

And Peter, who are you, after posting in favor of Trump, (13,500 documented lies in less that 1,000 days) to have anything unfavorable to say about me?
Quote
President Trump has made 13,435 false or misleading claims ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/14/president-trump-has-made-false-or-misleading-claims-over-days/

I succesfully research details related to the Assassination of JFK. Please share examples of your research.:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117224235/http://jfk.education/
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFK.educationScreenShot.jpg)

Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 28, 2019, 08:18:11 AM
Two prevaricators bashing me. Good one!

Walt, before John Iacoletti beats me to it, you made that up.... pulled it out your butt, still shiny and steaming....

Walt is claiming:
Helen Markham address, 328-1/2 East Ninth Street
William Arthur Smith address, 328-1/2 East Eighth Street, until some imaginary date, Smith's address changed to:
"In April of 1964 he was residing with his mother at 328 1/2 East Davis"

FBI reports, December, 1963:
Arthur T Smith, wife Eloise, and son William Arthur Smith address, 328-1/2 East Eighth Street
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&search=%22william_arthur+smith%22#relPageId=243&tab=page
and https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=246&search=arthur
Peter is a Trump apologist.

Walt and Peter are not required to post links supporting any of their posted claims. No evidence exists supporting Arthur T Smith, his wife Eloise, or their son, William Arthur Smith, ever living on "East Davis".

Walt and Peter post that this is Tom Scully's fault. Tom Scully is obviously flawed because he is unwilling to simply post unsupported BS.

In late 1964, it looks like William Arthur Smith's parents moved from 328-1/2 East Eighth St. to East Ninth St., after never ever residing at any address on
East Davis Street.


(http://jfkforum.com/images/TippitWilliamArthurSmithFather1965CityDir.jpg)

And Peter, who are you, after posting in favor of Trump, (13,500 documented lies in less that 1,000 days) to have anything unfavorable to say about me?
I succesfully research details related to the Assassination of JFK. Please share examples of your research.:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180117224235/http://jfk.education/
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFK.educationScreenShot.jpg)
I'm sorry Tom, you are so sensitive and I should have offered a tissue.
Emotionally weak? Lighten up!
I don't try to fool people with sources such as your favorite, The Washington Post.   
Oh! I forgot you claimed to be open-minded. Do you realize you surround yourself with sources who are subjective?
Maybe you could challenge yourself instead of being a feeble-minded lapdog. You are not very persuasive.
Tell me more about your unsuccessful attempt to be open-minded.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 28, 2019, 03:36:19 PM
"Too dumb" he is, and it is simply because he has an exaggerated sense of self-importance.
I am not surprised he would then described himself as open-minded.

Scully, says that he can't reach a conclusion.... He's been researching this case for a long time but he can't conclude ....He's says he's "open minded".  Is that the same as being too cowardly to face the truth?   

The important point in his post is the fact that William Smith told the FBI that he witnessed the murder of officer Tippit and the murderer was NOT  lee Oswald.   But Scully can't focus on this fact....instead he feels he needs run around in circles trying to figger out which address is correct.
Title: Re: Tippit Shooting, 1:15
Post by: Tom Scully on November 28, 2019, 08:36:32 PM
Scully, says that he can't reach a conclusion.... He's been researching this case for a long time but he can't conclude ....He's says he's "open minded".  Is that the same as being too cowardly to face the truth?   

The important point in his post is the fact that William Smith told the FBI that he witnessed the murder of officer Tippit and the murderer was NOT  lee Oswald.   But Scully can't focus on this fact....instead he feels he needs run around in circles trying to figger out which address is correct.

Again, Walt, if one is not open (receptive) to pursuit and then consideration of verifiable facts and to following them where they actually lead, your "cowardly" opinion of me might be understandable. Ironically, your irritation in reaction to me, my approach to research and the results I present is entirely misdirected. Save it for Jim Garrison and his wife's relative, Nicholas B. Lemann, and to a lesser extent, Garrison's biography editor and co-screenplay writer of "JFK, the movie," Zachary Sklar, who was "mugged" by both Garrison and Lemann.

Example: This is "in the face" of "the Community" because I stumbled upon it while trying to verify if what I had found through my research in early 2016 was an original "find," or not. I was researching Clay Shaw's first known "CIA hire," David G. Baldwin III. His 1945 wedding announcement informed me his mother was Adele Ziegler Baldwin, aka, Mrs. Harry Raworth. And it has turned out, with the benefit of 40 months of hindsight, now, that "the Community" didn't really want to know the verifiable facts, Thank You Very Much!

Quote
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-17/
Tom S. February 16, 2016

Ronnie Wayne – February 11 (2016)

…. I guess the other main theory of the thread is it means all of DiEugenio and Mellen’s work, as well as Garrison’s is junk?

(http://jfkforum.com/images/GarrisonHaroldZieglerObit.jpg)

In the course of attempting to determine if my new fact checked research details were actually original, I found identical details, by author of a biography of Clay Shaw,
Donald H Carpenter.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-knckgt3ASNI/Vrd2i7xQ1aI/AAAAAAAACvc/m_y25b9LkuA/s512-Ic42/BaldwinFirstCousinCarpenter.jpg)

And again, from Carpenter's book:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6e7iexAG0lM/Vrds4GJIGUI/AAAAAAAACvM/3WomDDWJrMw/s512-Ic42/BaldwinLemannStepsisterCarpenter.jpg)

Just as DPD and FBI, "had their man," and after that, needed to look no further, you, Walt, and busload after busload of others, "have their movie," and the "saint" who made your movie, Oliver Stone.
[/b]
Quote
https://jfkfacts.org/provocative-prolific-joan-mellen/#comment-869590
Tom S.  - April 14, 2016 at 1:58 am
Bogman,
Thank you, but I am not saying Garrison had a choice. As the late Tom Purvis posted on the Ed Forum, there
were people in NOLA as in every other city, people who determined who would be supported in campaigns for political office. Garrison had no option other than to do what he was told if he wished to be reelected or
aspire to higher office.
How accurate is it to as much as say that the Garrison investigation ruined his
personal and political life? He had a steady mistress long before his divorce, married her soon after divorcing David and Edward Baldwin’s first cousin Leigh aka Lee Elizabeth Ziegler, and ended up with her again near the last months of his life. His unfaithfulness can reasonably be blamed for his personal life
fallout. He won reelection soon after the Shaw acquittal, his next campaign was thwarted by the federal prosecution, which he beat. If there was an Op….a sham assassination investigation and prosecution of Shaw, it can reasonably be assumed the DOJ was not read in by the local powers that be and their allied individuals in CIA and or MIC, IOW, the people behind the assassination who decided a sham investigation limited hang out was the next scene in the script….and Garrison ended up a well respected judge.
The majority of lawyers in NOLA or in most cities would have been willing to live his life, given the choice, taking the good with the bad, even without the book deal and the attention of Oliver Stone and his
movie.

I found something that Donald H Carpenter happened upon just before I did, and included it but buried it in
his book. It does not mesh with the two decades long, anti-Garrison campaign of Nicholas B Lemann, nor with Stone’s movie, and it was Joan Mellen who named Garrison’s wife’s cousins, one of which was Mrs. Garrison’s godfather, and declared to Rex Bradford, “these are the CIA people.” Ms. Mellen left at that. DiEugenio has been informed and has buried his head in the sand. Shaw was told about Garrison’s conflict from the godfather/cousin himself, David Baldwin who Shaw hired fresh from his dismissal from CIA in India where he was serving as a covert agent. Shaw never raised this as an issue, and neither did Garrison.

Ironically, Garrison and Ms. Mellen’s “CIA people” appear to have had the ability to settle their differences after a family Thanksgiving gathering, if they actually did have differences and were not all following instructions to perform a limited hangout.

I think every fair appraiser of what I am laying out should attempt to explain it all away, but attempt
to cover all we now know, including the non-disclosure of Shaw through his lawyers to the court, and Garrison to his book editor Zachary Sklar, coscreenplay writer of the movie script. How did Nicholas B Lemann know from 1974 that he could repeatedly attack and ridicule Garrison with no reaction?

No one likes it, but the best explanation that covers all the bases and considers that Garrison wrecked his
own marriage independently of the investigation and the appearances of its toll on him and his family, and
did not suffer the loss of his career, he went on to even higher office than NODA, and also accounts for his
deceiving Mellen, Sklar, Stone, and possibly Davy and DiEugenio, is that Garrison and Shaw were following
directives they decided they could not refuse, issued by those with the most to lose in late 1966 if an investigation by federal politicians had garnered enough support. It is reasonable to say that the Garrison investigation and prosecution of Shaw delayed the start of a congressional committee investigation by five or more years and Nicholas B Lemann was just one of several who made the idea of the need or stature of the HSCA investigation look almost as absurd as Garrison’s was presented as.

Bogman, Joan Mellen stated that she interviewed at least 1200 people related to the effort to assemble
her book, and the question is did she have an advantage in knowing Garrison quite well since just after the
Shaw trial verdict.
In my experience and opinion, the current body of knowledge, and m