Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 330298 times)

Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2640 on: May 19, 2022, 12:15:53 AM »
Advertisement
Between 1:11pm and 1:12pm "tape time", Sawyer makes the following call:

On the 3rd floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now.

It is clearly a reference to the shells found on the 6th floor but something got lost in translation.
This call must be a result of information given to Sawyer by Hill, who had just come stright down after the discovery of the SN. In his testimony Hill makes the point:

"I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found..."

According to Hill he meets Day arriving at the TSBD, sees the fire truck pulling up then goes to Sawyer and tells him what he found.
Presumably Sawyer then makes his call to dispatch between 1:11 and 1:12pm.
Carl Day is very specific about when he arrives at the TSBD:

Mr. Day: Yes, sir; I went out of my office almost straight up 1 o'clock. I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12.

I'm assuming Day is going by his watch, if so we have some kind of synchronisation between "real" time and "tape" time.
Obviously there are issues with the accuracy of Day's timekeeping and the dispatcher clocks but it's a start.

I'm assuming Day is going by his watch, if so we have some kind of synchronisation between "real" time and "tape" time.
Obviously there are issues with the accuracy of Day's timekeeping and the dispatcher clocks but it's a start.


I would agree if it wasn't for this from Bowles, the DPD radio dispatcher's chief;

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2640 on: May 19, 2022, 12:15:53 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2641 on: May 19, 2022, 02:19:00 AM »
I'm assuming Day is going by his watch, if so we have some kind of synchronisation between "real" time and "tape" time.
Obviously there are issues with the accuracy of Day's timekeeping and the dispatcher clocks but it's a start.


I would agree if it wasn't for this from Bowles, the DPD radio dispatcher's chief;

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.

“There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

Bowles is referring to the dispatcher set-up when he is making this statement but I don't agree with it as some kind of fundamental pronouncement.
A thought experiment - imagine an officer was stood next to a reliable time source (let's say the Hertz clock on top of the TSBD). The dispatcher asks the officer what time the Hertz clock says and compares it to his own clock. In this way "real" time and "police" time have been connected.
Can this thought experiment be reproduced in reality?
The answer is "Yes".



The above picture is taken seconds after the assassination. The Hertz clock can be clearly seen showing 12:30.

When we look at the DPD tape transcripts we see that the very first call after the 12:30 timestamp is Chief Curry stating:

“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”

This is clearly a reference to the assassination.
So, here we have an example of "real" time being connected to "police" time. Maybe not to the second but certainly to the minute.
"Real" time (the Hertz clock) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
"Police" time (the tapes) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm

This could be a coincidence.
Also, just because both "times" seem connected at 12:30pm doesn't mean they can't be 6 minutes out 40 minutes later.
And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time.

The example I gave in my previous post about Day arriving at 1:12pm and Sawyer's call between 1:11 and 1:12pm appears to another coincidence at first glance but actually suggests there is a slight discrepency between the two "times".
There is also motorcycle cop E. D. Brewer. Between 12:37 and 12:38pm "tape" time Brewer is dealing with a witness on the west side of the underpass. He is told to get to the TSBD and rides the wrong way up Elm Street to get there.
The Murray pic below shows 12:39pm on the Hertz clock:



A closer inspection of the pic reveals Brewer riding the wrong way up Elm:



Once again, this demonstrates a very close synchronisation between "real" time and "police" time.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 02:20:18 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Bill Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2642 on: May 19, 2022, 02:33:05 AM »
“There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

Bowles is referring to the dispatcher set-up when he is making this statement but I don't agree with it as some kind of fundamental pronouncement.
A thought experiment - imagine an officer was stood next to a reliable time source (let's say the Hertz clock on top of the TSBD). The dispatcher asks the officer what time the Hertz clock says and compares it to his own clock. In this way "real" time and "police" time have been connected.
Can this thought experiment be reproduced in reality?
The answer is "Yes".



The above picture is taken seconds after the assassination. The Hertz clock can be clearly seen showing 12:30.

When we look at the DPD tape transcripts we see that the very first call after the 12:30 timestamp is Chief Curry stating:

“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”

This is clearly a reference to the assassination.
So, here we have an example of "real" time being connected to "police" time. Maybe not to the second but certainly to the minute.
"Real" time (the Hertz clock) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
"Police" time (the tapes) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm

This could be a coincidence.
Also, just because both "times" seem connected at 12:30pm doesn't mean they can't be 6 minutes out 40 minutes later.
And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time.

The example I gave in my previous post about Day arriving at 1:12pm and Sawyer's call between 1:11 and 1:12pm appears to another coincidence at first glance but actually suggests there is a slight discrepency between the two "times".
There is also motorcycle cop E. D. Brewer. Between 12:37 and 12:38pm "tape" time Brewer is dealing with a witness on the west side of the underpass. He is told to get to the TSBD and rides the wrong way up Elm Street to get there.
The Murray pic below shows 12:39pm on the Hertz clock:



A closer inspection of the pic reveals Brewer riding the wrong way up Elm:



Once again, this demonstrates a very close synchronisation between "real" time and "police" time.

Great post, Dan.  If you don't mind, I'm gonna use that in a couple of the JFK assassination/J.D. Tippit Facebook groups that I participate in.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2642 on: May 19, 2022, 02:33:05 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2643 on: May 19, 2022, 02:44:36 AM »
Great post, Dan.  If you don't mind, I'm gonna use that in a couple of the JFK assassination/J.D. Tippit Facebook groups that I participate in.
I don't mind at all Bill. It's still a work in progress so let's see where it leads.

Offline Bill Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2644 on: May 19, 2022, 02:54:43 AM »
I don't mind at all Bill. It's still a work in progress so let's see where it leads.

I look forward to seeing the finished product.  Thanks man.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2644 on: May 19, 2022, 02:54:43 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7322
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2645 on: May 19, 2022, 05:05:23 AM »
I don't mind at all Bill. It's still a work in progress so let's see where it leads.

"Great post, Dan."    I'll second that opinion....And applaud your work, Dan.....

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10810
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2646 on: May 19, 2022, 06:09:47 AM »
And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time.

Exactly.

Besides, Curry’s announcements are on channel 2 and all of the time checks around the time of the Tippit shooting are on channel 1. Different dispatcher, different clock.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2646 on: May 19, 2022, 06:09:47 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2647 on: May 20, 2022, 12:22:26 PM »
Exactly.

Out of my quite substantial post you pick one line:

"And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time."

To which your response is - "Exactly"

"Exactly" what?
The picture I posted was taken seconds after the assassination and the Hertz clock reads 12:30pm.
The first call after the 12:30pm timestamp is also the first reference to the assassination taking place.
In his affidavit Dave Powers states the following:

I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., Which was the time we were due at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off.


Bill Greer testifies as follows:

Mr. Specter: Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?
Mr. Greer: After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.
Mr. Specter: Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence?
Mr. Greer: He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time.


We have four independent sources confirming that the minute of the assassination was 12:30pm.
We have the DP "tape" time being confirmed by three independent sources of "real" time.
In terms of evidence this is more than enough for me to confidently assert that the minute [12:30:00 - 12:30:59] of the assassination was 12:30pm.
I also feel confident you will agree with this analysis.

Quote
Besides, Curry’s announcements are on channel 2 and all of the time checks around the time of the Tippit shooting are on channel 1. Different dispatcher, different clock.

Then it is important to establish that channel 1 and channel 2 are synchronised with each other.
After the 12:44pm timestamp [channel 2], Sawyer gives the first description of the suspect. Both dispatchers immediately broadcast this description givng the same details Sawyer provided but with slightly different wording.
Both dispatchers finish their descriptions with a timestamp - 12:45pm.



Once again, I am confident you will agree this is an unequivocal example of both channels being synched together.