Jim Chaney and the first shot timing

[Royell Storing]

Comrade Storing,

Not at all.

Dan Rather did a commendable job under the circumstances, i.e., not being allowed to see the clip more than once, having to run several blocks to the studio immediately afterwards, and telling the nation, without notes, what he thought he remembered seeing in it.

Give him a break.

He was spot-on on the most important thing -- JFK was shot.

-- Tom

   Per you, Rather did a "commendable job" because he got it right that, "JFK was shot"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This explains why you only repeat "talking points". It's the best that you can do. You definitely could have been Buell Frazier's best bud.

[Jack Nessan]

In every case that you cited above, Chaney says JFK looked over his left shoulder after the first noise. In none of those cases does he indicate that JFK was hit by the first noise. We can clearly see JFK turn his head to look over his left shoulder around the mid Z140s to the mid Z150s in the Zapruder film. No where else in the Zapruder film does JFK turn to look over his left shoulder.

In the television interview Chaney’s words are (per your post):

Then, the, uh, second shot came, well, then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet.

As Chaney later clarified per the FBI report, he looked back and saw JFK struck in the head after “the, uh, second shot came.” And that is precisely how his words in the television interview of 11/22/63 should be interpreted (according to proper grammar).

Charles Collins: “In none of those cases does he indicate that JFK was hit by the first noise.”

Interesting analysis of DPD Chaney. According to this analysis, DPD Chaney is unaware JFK or JBC were ever struck by the first bullet. Despite the fact DPD Chaney is seen staring at them in the Altgen's photo. DPD Chaney is only aware that JFK is struck by what he referred to as "the second bullet" which is the headshot.

DPD Bobby Hargis, like DPD Chaney is also a definite two-shot witness but was stationed on the left side of the Limo next to Jackie.

Based on DPD Hargis referring to JFK as bent forward followed by the headshot instead of the DPD Chaney’s “turning his head to the left” followed by the headshot, did DPD Hargis also not know what was going on? 

DPD Hargis states JFK was "bent forward" with no indication of being hit by the first shot. JBC likewise is unaware and turning around. Like Chaney DPD Hargis states the second shot is the headshot. Hargis indicates they later learned that JFK was hit by the first shot.

Bobby Hargis: {Courtesy of Pat Speer's website}

“11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times-Herald. Note: in 1995 Hargis would tell researchers Ian Griggs and Mark Oakes that he didn't write this article and that it must have been based on a conversation he'd had with a reporter in a hallway) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off.”

 

This is almost certainly the basis for the 11-22 article) "I felt blood hit me in the face, and the presidential car stopped almost immediately after that and stayed stopped about half a second, then took off at a high rate of speed. I racked my cycle and jumped off. I ran to the north side of Elm Street to see if I could find where the bullets came from. I don't think the President got hit with the first shot, but I don't know for sure. When I heard the first shot, it looked like he bent over. I feel that the Governor was shot first. I could be wrong. Right after the first shot, I was trying to look and see if the President got shot. When I saw the look on Connally's face, I knew somebody was shooting at the car...The fatal bullet struck the President in the right side of the head.

 

(11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.

(4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded,   

 

10-26-77, notes transcribed 11-16-77, JFK document #003300, RIF 180-10107-10243) ""When they turned left on Elm from Houston, he was watching the President's car. Shortly afterwards, he heard a shot. He saw President Kennedy slump forward and Governor Connally turn. He felt at the time that Connally might have been hit and the President was leaning forward to find out what happened. He said the first shot sounded to him like a firecracker. The second shot hit JFK in the head.   

 

(Interview by HSCA investigator Jack Moriarty dated 8-8-78, notes transcribed 8-23-78, JFK document #014362, RIF 180-10113-10272) "When the first report sounded, he was "about one-third of the way down Elm", having made the last turn from Houston. It sounded like a firecracker, but he was unable to tell where it came from. He looked to his right and saw Connally turning and the President appeared to be leaning forward as if he was trying to hear what the Governor was saying. He had seen JFK lean forward in like manner during the motorcade as he and Connally had been conversing. This time, though, the President had an expression of pain on his face. When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head -   

 

Interview by HSCA investigator Jack Moriarty, 12-29-78, JFK document # 014224, RIF 180-10109-10354). "Reached Mr. Hargis at his new residence... today and developed the following additional information. At the sound of the first shot, he was "in position" - some five to six feet from the left corner of the rear bumper of John F. Kennedy limousine. At the sound of the second shot, he was a bit closer (the limousine slowed and nearly stopped) - perhaps four feet. By the third shot (although he doesn't recall the actual, but saw John F. Kennedy's head explode), he was "almost even with Jackie - no more than two or three feet, if that."

 

(Interview with NBC broadcast on the 1988 program That Day In November) "It sounded like a firecracker to me and I thought 'Oh Lord, let it be a firecracker. And it looked like the President was bending over, forward. And then when he raised back up is when that second shot hit him in the head." (5-14-92 video-taped interview with Mark Oakes) "I was trying to catch up to my assigned station when the first shot rang out...I saw Connally turn around...I thought he had been shot. It sounded like a firecracker but then when I saw Connally's face I thought he'd been shot. Which he had...The second shot made his head like a ripe tomato when you shoot it with a gun on the ground. It explodes. That's how his head did. It exploded. Now you got brain matter, blood, and everything else on you" (6-26-95 video-taped interview with Mark Oakes and Ian Griggs) (On the explosion of Kennedy's head) "It didn't only hit me...It showered everything in the car behind it...You put a ripe tomato, and you shoot it with a gun and it splatters. That's what it was...But the first shot sounded like a firecracker...I've been fired at like five times and every one of them sounded like a firecracker--to me...

(Later, after voicing his support for the single-bullet theory) "There was not three shots; there was only two. I only heard two. One got him through the back and one got him through the head. That's it...The facts was there was two shots--one that hit him in the back and one that hit him in the head. And the one that hit him in the head just busted his head wide open. That's it." 

(November 1998 interview with Texas Monthly) “About ten seconds after we made that left-hand turn, that first shot rang out…I remember Kennedy leaned forward to listen to what he had to say. And then when he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. But we figured out that he had got shot—that first bullet had gone through the upper part of his back, well through the seat, and hit Connally’s wrist and glanced off and went into his thigh.”   

(Interview within an 11-22-03 WBAP radio program found on Youtube) "Yeah I looked toward the President and I thought maybe John Connally was hit because he turned around to look at the President. He had a real surprised look on his face. Kennedy was bending over like he was listening to what Connally had to say. When he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. That's what killed him, There was only two shots fired."

(7-1-03 interview with Mike Brownlow available on youtube as part of the compilation Shattered Friday) "The first thing that I noticed when we turned the corner and headed to the triple underpass was a popping sound like a firecracker...Governor Connally had turned around and I thought that Governor Connally had been shot because he had such a pained expression on his face. About 5 seconds later the motorcade slowed down and the President lifted back up and the bullet hit him in the head.

(11-22-03 article in the Dallas Morning News) “Hargis differs with the Warren Commission and most eyewitnesses, insisting that only two shots were fired. With the first, “a thousand million things went through my mind,” he says. After the last, “there was a plume of blood and brains and plasma. It was just like a fog, and I ran right through it.”


Unlike DPD Chaney, who many years later changes what he had originally stated to a three-shot narrative, DPD Hargis never waivers, but instead reaffirms there were only two shots.

[Charles Collins]

Charles Collins: “In none of those cases does he indicate that JFK was hit by the first noise.”

Interesting analysis of DPD Chaney. According to this analysis, DPD Chaney is unaware JFK or JBC were ever struck by the first bullet. Despite the fact DPD Chaney is seen staring at them in the Altgen's photo. DPD Chaney is only aware that JFK is struck by what he referred to as "the second bullet" which is the headshot.

DPD Bobby Hargis, like DPD Chaney is also a definite two-shot witness but was stationed on the left side of the Limo next to Jackie.

Based on DPD Hargis referring to JFK as bent forward followed by the headshot instead of the DPD Chaney’s “turning his head to the left” followed by the headshot, did DPD Hargis also not know what was going on? 

DPD Hargis states JFK was "bent forward" with no indication of being hit by the first shot. JBC likewise is unaware and turning around. Like Chaney DPD Hargis states the second shot is the headshot. Hargis indicates they later learned that JFK was hit by the first shot.

Bobby Hargis: {Courtesy of Pat Speer's website}

“11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times-Herald. Note: in 1995 Hargis would tell researchers Ian Griggs and Mark Oakes that he didn't write this article and that it must have been based on a conversation he'd had with a reporter in a hallway) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off.”

 

This is almost certainly the basis for the 11-22 article) "I felt blood hit me in the face, and the presidential car stopped almost immediately after that and stayed stopped about half a second, then took off at a high rate of speed. I racked my cycle and jumped off. I ran to the north side of Elm Street to see if I could find where the bullets came from. I don't think the President got hit with the first shot, but I don't know for sure. When I heard the first shot, it looked like he bent over. I feel that the Governor was shot first. I could be wrong. Right after the first shot, I was trying to look and see if the President got shot. When I saw the look on Connally's face, I knew somebody was shooting at the car...The fatal bullet struck the President in the right side of the head.

 

(11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.

(4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded,   

 

10-26-77, notes transcribed 11-16-77, JFK document #003300, RIF 180-10107-10243) ""When they turned left on Elm from Houston, he was watching the President's car. Shortly afterwards, he heard a shot. He saw President Kennedy slump forward and Governor Connally turn. He felt at the time that Connally might have been hit and the President was leaning forward to find out what happened. He said the first shot sounded to him like a firecracker. The second shot hit JFK in the head.   

 

(Interview by HSCA investigator Jack Moriarty dated 8-8-78, notes transcribed 8-23-78, JFK document #014362, RIF 180-10113-10272) "When the first report sounded, he was "about one-third of the way down Elm", having made the last turn from Houston. It sounded like a firecracker, but he was unable to tell where it came from. He looked to his right and saw Connally turning and the President appeared to be leaning forward as if he was trying to hear what the Governor was saying. He had seen JFK lean forward in like manner during the motorcade as he and Connally had been conversing. This time, though, the President had an expression of pain on his face. When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head -   

 

Interview by HSCA investigator Jack Moriarty, 12-29-78, JFK document # 014224, RIF 180-10109-10354). "Reached Mr. Hargis at his new residence... today and developed the following additional information. At the sound of the first shot, he was "in position" - some five to six feet from the left corner of the rear bumper of John F. Kennedy limousine. At the sound of the second shot, he was a bit closer (the limousine slowed and nearly stopped) - perhaps four feet. By the third shot (although he doesn't recall the actual, but saw John F. Kennedy's head explode), he was "almost even with Jackie - no more than two or three feet, if that."

 

(Interview with NBC broadcast on the 1988 program That Day In November) "It sounded like a firecracker to me and I thought 'Oh Lord, let it be a firecracker. And it looked like the President was bending over, forward. And then when he raised back up is when that second shot hit him in the head." (5-14-92 video-taped interview with Mark Oakes) "I was trying to catch up to my assigned station when the first shot rang out...I saw Connally turn around...I thought he had been shot. It sounded like a firecracker but then when I saw Connally's face I thought he'd been shot. Which he had...The second shot made his head like a ripe tomato when you shoot it with a gun on the ground. It explodes. That's how his head did. It exploded. Now you got brain matter, blood, and everything else on you" (6-26-95 video-taped interview with Mark Oakes and Ian Griggs) (On the explosion of Kennedy's head) "It didn't only hit me...It showered everything in the car behind it...You put a ripe tomato, and you shoot it with a gun and it splatters. That's what it was...But the first shot sounded like a firecracker...I've been fired at like five times and every one of them sounded like a firecracker--to me...

(Later, after voicing his support for the single-bullet theory) "There was not three shots; there was only two. I only heard two. One got him through the back and one got him through the head. That's it...The facts was there was two shots--one that hit him in the back and one that hit him in the head. And the one that hit him in the head just busted his head wide open. That's it." 

(November 1998 interview with Texas Monthly) “About ten seconds after we made that left-hand turn, that first shot rang out…I remember Kennedy leaned forward to listen to what he had to say. And then when he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. But we figured out that he had got shot—that first bullet had gone through the upper part of his back, well through the seat, and hit Connally’s wrist and glanced off and went into his thigh.”   

(Interview within an 11-22-03 WBAP radio program found on Youtube) "Yeah I looked toward the President and I thought maybe John Connally was hit because he turned around to look at the President. He had a real surprised look on his face. Kennedy was bending over like he was listening to what Connally had to say. When he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. That's what killed him, There was only two shots fired."

(7-1-03 interview with Mike Brownlow available on youtube as part of the compilation Shattered Friday) "The first thing that I noticed when we turned the corner and headed to the triple underpass was a popping sound like a firecracker...Governor Connally had turned around and I thought that Governor Connally had been shot because he had such a pained expression on his face. About 5 seconds later the motorcade slowed down and the President lifted back up and the bullet hit him in the head.

(11-22-03 article in the Dallas Morning News) “Hargis differs with the Warren Commission and most eyewitnesses, insisting that only two shots were fired. With the first, “a thousand million things went through my mind,” he says. After the last, “there was a plume of blood and brains and plasma. It was just like a fog, and I ran right through it.”


Unlike DPD Chaney, who many years later changes what he had originally stated to a three-shot narrative, DPD Hargis never waivers, but instead reaffirms there were only two shots.

According to this analysis, DPD Chaney is unaware JFK or JBC were ever struck by the first bullet. Despite the fact DPD Chaney is seen staring at them in the Altgen's photo.

In Altgens’ photo we see Chaney’s head in profile. This necessarily means that his head is pointed about 90-degrees from the camera. Here’s a crop of the photo:




Now let’s take a look at the relative positions of Chaney and JFK/JBC. Here is a crop of an image by Dale Myers that shows an overhead view of their positions at the time of the Altgens photo:



I drew the yellow and blue lines to indicate directions to the other two motorcycles on the left side of the limo (yellow line) and to JFK/JBC (blue line). Altgens’ position can be seen near the lower left corner of the image. I submit that if Chaney was “staring at JFK/JBC we would not be seeing his head in profile; instead Chaney would be looking more towards the camera. Therefore, it appears to me that Chaney was looking at what he told the FBI he was looking at just after the second shot.

[Royell Storing]

According to this analysis, DPD Chaney is unaware JFK or JBC were ever struck by the first bullet. Despite the fact DPD Chaney is seen staring at them in the Altgen's photo.

In Altgens’ photo we see Chaney’s head in profile. This necessarily means that his head is pointed about 90-degrees from the camera. Here’s a crop of the photo:




Now let’s take a look at the relative positions of Chaney and JFK/JBC. Here is a crop of an image by Dale Myers that shows an overhead view of their positions at the time of the Altgens photo:



I drew the yellow and blue lines to indicate directions to the other two motorcycles on the left side of the limo (yellow line) and to JFK/JBC (blue line). Altgens’ position can be seen near the lower left corner of the image. I submit that if Chaney was “staring at JFK/JBC we would not be seeing his head in profile; instead Chaney would be looking more towards the camera. Therefore, it appears to me that Chaney was looking at what he told the FBI he was looking at just after the second shot.

      Do you really believe that the JFK Limo had traveled passed the Stemmons sign and reached  the Light Pole when Altgens snapped the Lovelady photo? Nope!

[Charles Collins]

      Do you really believe that the JFK Limo had traveled passed the Stemmons sign and reached  the Light Pole when Altgens snapped the Lovelady photo? Nope!

Here’s a wider view of where Dale Myers has it:

[Royell Storing]

Here’s a wider view of where Dale Myers has it:

  Thanks for posting the above "wide view".  Altgens clashed with the WC Attorney regarding his physical position on the (S) side of Elm. He did so based on the setting of his camera with respect to his distance from the JFK Limo when he snapped #6.   

[Steve Barber]

DPD motorcycle cop Jim Chaney was riding escort to the right side of the limo. He was the closest cop to JFK. Jim said that he thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire. Jim Chaney said in a TV interview on 11/22/63 that he looked over at JFK right after he heard the shot and that JFK was looking towards his left shoulder. Here is a clip showing Chaney starting at Z136 through Z153. It appears to me that Chaney is turning his head to his left to look at JFK:





Meanwhile, JFK is shown in this clip during frames Z133 through Z154. JFK finishes fixing his hair and turns his head quickly towards his left shoulder. I would guess that he is checking on Jackie after hearing the first shot (which many folks thought to be a motorcycle backfire).

 Take a look at the National Archives copy of the Zapruder film.  James Chaney keeps his head facing straight ahead if you watch him until he disappears from Zapruder's view.  He never looks to his left at any time.

[Jack Nessan]

According to this analysis, DPD Chaney is unaware JFK or JBC were ever struck by the first bullet. Despite the fact DPD Chaney is seen staring at them in the Altgen's photo.

In Altgens’ photo we see Chaney’s head in profile. This necessarily means that his head is pointed about 90-degrees from the camera. Here’s a crop of the photo:




Now let’s take a look at the relative positions of Chaney and JFK/JBC. Here is a crop of an image by Dale Myers that shows an overhead view of their positions at the time of the Altgens photo:



I drew the yellow and blue lines to indicate directions to the other two motorcycles on the left side of the limo (yellow line) and to JFK/JBC (blue line). Altgens’ position can be seen near the lower left corner of the image. I submit that if Chaney was “staring at JFK/JBC we would not be seeing his head in profile; instead Chaney would be looking more towards the camera. Therefore, it appears to me that Chaney was looking at what he told the FBI he was looking at just after the second shot.

There are a number of problems with this picture and explanation. You have mixed up the fifth (1975 FBI) statement with the previous four statements given in the aftermath of the assassination with two completely different explanations of the shooting.

This is nothing more than what do you believe. 

Charles Collins:

“That is not what Chaney said. He said JFK appeared to be looking over his left shoulder. The only place we see anything of that nature is in the clip provided in the first post in this thread. It is from about the mid Z40s to mid Z150s.”
 
“I cannot believe that Chaney would describe JFK as looking over his left shoulder after he was shot around Z224. It should be obvious to anyone who sees the Zapruder film that at that point JFK was reacting to being shot. Chaney wouldn’t have left that part out.”

Neither of your two versions ever mentions the throat shot. Just the headshot. For the 1975 FBI version he just added an extra shot with no explanation.

Version one explanation has an early missed shot at Z145 followed by the headshot 

Version two explanation has DPD Chaney looking at DPD Hargis at Z256 instead of the wounded JFK and JBC. No mention of either JFK or JBC having been wounded which you have stated: “Chaney would not have left that part out”. But he did. Now just do the math. If the second shot or bullet is the headshot, what is the first shot or bullet?

Neither version ever mentions the throat shot. Just the headshot. Version two has an extra shot added with no explanation at all.

This new version now has DPD Chaney looking at DPD Hargis, at least in this new version based on Altgen’s photo at Z255. At this point JBC and JFK have reacted severely to having been wounded. 

The first shot and JFK and DPD Chaney heads turning left at Z145 has now been moved up to Z255 and after JFK and JBC have both been wounded which is what DPD Chaney is looking at.