When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

As one might expect, a bullet passing through the soft tissues of a body without directly striking bone should follow a straight line—from the point of entry to the point of exit from where it continues without deviating; however, ballistics has demonstrated that this is not the case.

After the bullet penetrates JFK's back, while it traverses through his body, it probably deviates from a straight line—possibly slightly UPWARD from its initial line and to the RIGHT; but continues in a general downward trajectory as it exits his throat and strikes Governor Connally.

The Knott Laboratory digital reconstruction appears rather convincing until one scrutinises it further. They base their findings on straight-line bullet trajectories from entry to exit that continue without deviation while traversing JFK's neck and continue undeviated after projectile exit. A bullet deviating RIGHT as it exits the throat could account for the discrepancy in their trajectory analysis. So, their determinations are demonstrable fallacies and, therefore, cannot be used as irrefutable evidence to disprove the Single Bullet Theory.

For a bullet to deviate from a straight path a net force must be applied to it (Newton 1).  So it must experience asymmetrical forces to deviate from the straight line path from the rifle.  It does not appear to have struck anything hard in passing through the neck so, as the WC ballistics experts noted, it would leave JFK's throat in a straight line but likely tumbling (as it would have lost rifling in passing through JFK).

After leaving JFK's throat the only forces would have been gravity and air.  It is travelling at about 1200 fps at that point, give or take.   If it is going to change direction in the ensuing 24 inches to JBC's right armpit, it has to do that in 1/600th of a second. 

In 1/600th of a second, gravity will cause it to drop as distance s where: s=gt^2/2=9.8/(2 x 600^2)=1.36 x 10^-5 m which is 13.6 millionths of a metre or .0136 mm ie. nothing.

To actually deflect a 10 g. 1200 fps bullet even one inch over 24 inches (ie. 1/600th of a second) one needs a force much greater than gravity - one that will give it an average lateral speed of 600 inches/sec. In other words, it must go from 0 to 1200 inches/second laterally in 1/600th of a second.  That would require an enormous asymmetrical force.

An unstable bullet will drift an inch or two from a straight line path due to aerodynamic forces and will prescribe a gradual spiral path. But this will occur over tens of yards, not 24 inches. 

This was demonstrated nicely in an American Rifleman article from September 1968:


These results show that the unstable bullet deviated from a straight line path by one inch after passing through 28-32 paper screens. Screen 1 was 25 yards downrange and was after it passed through the destabilizing brush.  Screens 2-22 were 12" apart and screens 23-32 were 20 feet apart.  So 28 screens represents 21+20(7)=161 feet. 32 screens represents 241 feet.

So the idea that the bullet from JFK's neck to the plane of JBC's back will deviate from a straight line by more than a negligible distance - much less than an inch - is fantasy.  This is essentially what ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan told the HSCA (1 HSCA 408):

Mr. FAUNTROY. So it would yaw a little coming through but would be pretty much straight?
Mr. STURDIVAN. It is still very straight but its angular momentum is such that as it comes out it is turning.
Mr. FAUNTROY. I see.
Mr. STURDIVAN. OK
Mr. FAUNTROY. Could it have struck another man sitting directly in front of the first man?
Mr. STURDIVAN. If the initial trajectory had been into that man, yes, because it would not have deviated significantly from its original trajectory.

[Dan O'meara]

There's lot of hype about the Knott Lab laser reconstruction but I can't find an independent analysis or critique of it anywhere.
The pic below shows the culmination of the reconstruction and illustrates their fundamental claim, that the bullet passing through JFK can't be lined up with JBC:



The green line shows the trajectory of the bullet from the SN.
The red line shows the trajectory of the bullet passing through JBC.
Two issues spring out immediately:
1] The Knott reconstruction shows the bullet passing through JFK and hitting JBC (green line). It shows the bullet hitting JBC about 10 inches away from where it should be. The question is - what happened to the bullet they show hitting JBC? We know he wasn't hit in the position they are showing, so what happened to this bullet?
2] The red line, showing the trajectory of the bullet through JBC, seems to be showing that JBC was shot by JFK!! Is that the revolutionary new theory Knott are presenting? It is beyond obvious that their reconstruction shows the bullet that hits JBC in the back MUST pass through JFK first. How do they explain this?

Knott Laboratory don't seem to have taken reality into account. They haven't taken into account that the Z-film shows both men reacting at exactly the same moment. If there were two different bullets, as Knott claims, then JFK must have shot JBC as it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to hit JBC in the back without going through JFK first.
On top of this, their reconstruction shows the moment at z225. By z223 the bullet has passed through both men, crushing JBC's rib on the way through. While this does not really affect the position of JFK (as the bullet passes straight through soft tissue), it radically affects the position of JBC by z225 as his body is responding to the instantaneous physical reaction of the bullet against bone. The right side of his body is thrust forward instantaneously and has twisted to a significant degree by z225.

Below is a still from the Knott reconstruction and it shows that JFK and JBC are sat pretty much one behind the other.



This is simply not the case. JBC was sat far more inboard than this reconstruction shows. The pic taken by Dave Powers demonstrates this clearly.




I'm no image analyst but there seems to be lots of issues with the Knott reconstruction and I don't see where they've had to answer any difficult questions about it.

[Andrew Mason]

There's lot of hype about the Knott Lab laser reconstruction but I can't find an independent analysis or critique of it anywhere.
The pic below shows the culmination of the reconstruction and illustrates their fundamental claim, that the bullet passing through JFK can't be lined up with JBC:



The green line shows the trajectory of the bullet from the SN.
The red line shows the trajectory of the bullet passing through JBC.
Two issues spring out immediately:
1] The Knott reconstruction shows the bullet passing through JFK and hitting JBC (green line). It shows the bullet hitting JBC about 10 inches away from where it should be. The question is - what happened to the bullet they show hitting JBC? We know he wasn't hit in the position they are showing, so what happened to this bullet?
2] The red line, showing the trajectory of the bullet through JBC, seems to be showing that JBC was shot by JFK!! Is that the revolutionary new theory Knott are presenting? It is beyond obvious that their reconstruction shows the bullet that hits JBC in the back MUST pass through JFK first. How do they explain this?

Knott Laboratory don't seem to have taken reality into account. They haven't taken into account that the Z-film shows both men reacting at exactly the same moment. If there were two different bullets, as Knott claims, then JFK must have shot JBC as it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to hit JBC in the back without going through JFK first.
On top of this, their reconstruction shows the moment at z225. By z223 the bullet has passed through both men, crushing JBC's rib on the way through. While this does not really affect the position of JFK (as the bullet passes straight through soft tissue), it radically affects the position of JBC by z225 as his body is responding to the instantaneous physical reaction of the bullet against bone. The right side of his body is thrust forward instantaneously and has twisted to a significant degree by z225.

Below is a still from the Knott reconstruction and it shows that JFK and JBC are sat pretty much one behind the other.



This is simply not the case. JBC was sat far more inboard than this reconstruction shows. The pic taken by Dave Powers demonstrates this clearly.




I'm no image analyst but there seems to be lots of issues with the Knott reconstruction and I don't see where they've had to answer any difficult questions about it.

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.

Knott Labs took all the physical evidence and made an accurate model not only of Dealey Plaza, but of the car and its position and direction on the street at each frame.  They then determined the trajectory to see if a shot from the SN could possibly have gone through both men as the SBT says.  They conclude that, based on the physical evidence, position and direction of the car and the distances between the two men as they were seated, that JBC would have to have been in the position shown at z225 and concluded that the path would have struck JBC farther left than he was actually struck:

So they conclude that the SBT could not have occurred at z225 according to the trajectory from the SN through JFK unless JBC was seated where they show.  So they tried it at z210 to see if it worked.  And it did not at z210 either.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225 trajectory images because the position of JBC in the right frame labelled Z225 has him turned to the right side, which is not the position that JBC was in at z225.  Rather that was the position before he disappeared behind the sign.  The position shown in the frame labelled Z210 has him facing forward, as he was in z225 but not z210:

[Dan O'meara]

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the SBT is correct and occurred about z225 and criticizing Knott for disagreeing with you.

Knott Labs took all the physical evidence and made an accurate model not only of Dealey Plaza, but of the car and its position and direction on the street at each frame.  They then determined the trajectory to see if a shot from the SN could possibly have gone through both men as the SBT says.  They conclude that, based on the physical evidence, position and direction of the car and the distances between the two men as they were seated, that JBC would have to have been in the position shown at z225 and concluded that the path would have struck JBC farther left than he was actually struck:

So they conclude that the SBT could not have occurred at z225 according to the trajectory from the SN through JFK unless JBC was seated where they show.  So they tried it at z210 to see if it worked.  And it did not at z210 either.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225 trajectory images because the position of JBC in the right frame labelled Z225 has him turned to the right side, which is not the position that JBC was in at z225.  Rather that was the position before he disappeared behind the sign.  The position shown in the frame labelled Z210 has him facing forward, as he was in z225 but not z210:

There is no doubt JFK is shot through the throat between z-frames 222 and 223. I'm asking a simple question - where did the bullet go that Knott Labs have striking JBC's back?
There is also no doubt that the Z-film shows both men having radical reactions at exactly the same moment, a reality the Knott Labs model fails to explain.
And the trajectory for JBC's wounds seems to be showing that he was shot by JFK!! A new theory that holds about as much water as your own truly dead and buried theory.

I believe that they have mis-labelled the z210 and z225

Isn't this a clue to how poor this model is?

[Andrew Mason]

There is no doubt JFK is shot through the throat between z-frames 222 and 223. I'm asking a simple question - where did the bullet go that Knott Labs have striking JBC's back?

I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it.  You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda.  You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:

There is also no doubt that the Z-film shows both men having radical reactions at exactly the same moment, a reality the Knott Labs model fails to explain.

The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment. [edit:]  JBC said he reacted immediately after recognizing the sound as a rifle shot and, fearing an assassination unfolding, turned around out of concern for JFK being shot.  He was quite clear that his reaction to the first shot was not from being hit in the back by it.

And the trajectory for JBC's wounds seems to be showing that he was shot by JFK!! A new theory that holds about as much water as your own truly dead and buried theory.

If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point.  That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously.  So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it.  You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda.  You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:

The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment.  If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point.  That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously.  So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.

Question: What caused the "radical reaction" by JBC at the same moment as JFK's "radical reaction" to a bullet hitting him?

Don't we also see a physical reaction by JBC as the bullet hits him in the right shoulder like, as he said, a "fist"? If that wasn't a bullet then what caused it? I'm sure you answered this before but I can't find it offhand.

[Dan O'meara]

I not only have considerable doubt about the first shot being that late, there is considerable evidence is against it.  You are ignoring Phil Willis, as well as his daughter Linda.  You are also ignoring Rosemary Willis' sharp turn at z204-206:

The evidence that the first bullet passed through JFK but did not strike JBC in the back is also consistent with both men having "radical reactions" at "exactly" the same moment.  If you are referring to the red line trajectory, that is the path that a bullet would have to follow for JBC to be hit in the right armpit and exit under his right nipple at that point.  That red line trajectory does not fit a shot from the SN, obviously.  So the conclusion would have to be that JBC was not struck in the back at that point, based on the Knott model.

...there is considerable evidence is against it.

 
Phil Willis and his daughters??!!
Considerable evidence??
I forgot how funny you can be 
This ground was covered in detail in "The First Shot" thread. There's no need to go over the destruction of your moribund theory yet again.

[Andrew Mason]

Question: What caused the "radical reaction" by JBC at the same moment as JFK's "radical reaction" to a bullet hitting him?

Hearing the first shot. His reaction described in his WC testimony fits exactly what we see him do after z228. I have updated my earlier post to elaborate. 
Here is what JBC said (4H132-133):

• "We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot.
  I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively
  turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right
  shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing
  unusual except, just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in
  the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot
  in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately-the only thought
  that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
  So I looked, failing to see him. I was turning to look back over my left shoulder
  into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn.
  

There is absolutely nowhere in the zfilm prior to z250 where we see any attempt by JBC to look over his right shoulder to check on JFK. None.  Before JFK is seen reacting, JBC does not even turn his neck past 45 degrees forward relative to his shoulders. 

Don't we also see a physical reaction by JBC as the bullet hits him in the right shoulder like, as he said, a "fist"? If that wasn't a bullet then what caused it? I'm sure you answered this before but I can't find it offhand.

I can't tell from just the film what he is reacting to.  We have to follow the evidence and fit it to what is seen in the film.  He said he turned "to look back over my right shoulder" and he does not begin preparing to do that until about z228 and he does not look "back over my right shoulder" until about z255. We can see him straining to look back in Altgens #6 at that time.  We know from SA George Hickey that Hickey was turned forward watching JFK at the time of the second and third shots.  Hickey is still turned rearward in Altgens #6 at z255.  So, according to Hickey, the last two shots are after z255.  That fits with what 80% of those who recalled a pattern to the shot sounds said.

So, in answer to your question, what hit him (other than, possibly, CE399 striking his left thigh) was the realization that the President was being assassinated.  That is why he yelled "oh, no, no", as Nellie recalled, after the first and before the second shot.  We can see him uttering something that looks very much like "oh, no, no" in the z240s.