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Author Topic: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?  (Read 25475 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2023, 07:16:12 PM »
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Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!"...I heard what sounded like three shots...I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girls name is Gloria Calvery...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife..."
    Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

At his W.C. testimony Joe Molina says he sees Gloria Calvery arrive in the lobby and discusses the shooting. So did Gloria twice say the same story, first with Bill Shelley and then in the lobby? Or was there a little pow wow afterwards? This would also indicate that Calvery’s appearance inside the T.S.B.D. would be several minutes after the assassination and not on the TSBD steps!!!

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said “Oh, my God, Joe, he’s been shot.” They were both horrified. I said “Are you sure he was shot?” She said “Oh, Joe ,I’m sure. I saw his hair fly up and I’m sure he was shot” something to that extent.

Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!

Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot.
For the benefit of clarity I will outline my own understanding of this aspect of the case. What follows is my own, personal interpretation of the evidence as I understand it. It's my own opinion.

Gloria is stood with her work colleagues when she sees JFK's head explode. She gets a good view of it and in the pandemonium that breaks out after the head-shot she races back to the TSBD with Karan Hicks (the woman in white). At around the same moment Shelley runs across the street from the TSBD building and encounters Gloria as she is running back to the building. The respective routes are shown in a version of the Roberdeau map below (which I've cleaned up for my own purposes):



According to the scale Roberdeau uses, the distance from Gloria's marked position on Elm Street to the base of the TSBD steps is approximately 150 feet. Jogging around 6mph will cover this distance in around 17 seconds. Running at a modest 8mph will cover this distance in just under 13 seconds.
After running into Shelley (at position "A"), Gloria continues towards the steps but hasn't gone far when she encounters officer Joe Marshall Smith, who had been at the intersection of Elm and Houston, holding up traffic on Elm, but who immediately made his way towards the TSBD building after hearing the shots:

"...and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here."


The bushes being referred to are those behind Gloria's position on Elm Street. Smith can be seen making his way up the Elm Street extension in Darnell.
Gloria then runs on to the TSBD steps where she tells those stood on the steps what has happened. Buell Frazier, the figure stood at the top of the steps, describes talking to Sarah [Stanton] when Gloria approaches the steps:

"...right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy...She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people."

Even though she is telling everyone in general it is Billy Lovelady who interacts with her. Lovelady is stood on the steps when Gloria comes running up:

"...I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was..."

Molina, who is stood directly outside the lobby, steps inside and is there when Gloria and Karan make their way up the steps and enter the building:

"...I was in the lobby standing there and she [Gloria] came in with this other girl...She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."


It is important to note that Molina notices Gloria is with someone else.
As Baker approaches the steps he notices a woman in great distress:

"...there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

It is my opinion that the Darnell clip of the TSBD step fits the general story outlined above.
In the clip below we see Gloria near the base of the steps wearing a black headscarf. It is the moment she is telling everyone there about the shooting. The bald man facing her can only be Lovelady who is questioning her about the shooting. Frazier looks on from his position at the top of the steps. Baker is approaching the scene as the highly upset Gloria recounts what has happened. Directly behind Gloria is Shelley, the man in the baggy, dark suit who appears to be moving towards the steps [presumably after returning from the other side of the street] then turns to his left.



I'm sure there is a better copy of this moment out there somewhere.
Below is a (very poor) still on which I've labelled the main players in case there's any confusion:




As I say,it's just my opinion but, if accepted, it does have a very interesting knock-on effect in that it reveals both Shelley and Lovelady lied to the WC about how long it took them to re-enter the TSBD building by the little known (at the time) west door.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 07:46:22 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2023, 07:16:12 PM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2023, 08:54:49 PM »
Hi Dan,
"Hi Dan, No, in your evidence you are saying that Bill Did Not meet Gloria on the steps!!!

Hi Michael, when you say "No" in the quote above, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
No, what?
And just to be clear, I am saying, according to his affidavit, that Shelley first met Gloria after he had run across the street from the steps to the "corner of the park". He then followed her back to the steps where she was telling everyone that JFK had been shot." Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

   

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2023, 01:27:22 AM »
Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran! And Billy said a fast walk or trotting! The corner of the park is the Grassy Knoll by the concrete arcade where Billy thought the shots came from. It is not the concrete island; it is not Elm Street. It is what is pictured in Couch! There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there. Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby. The people on the steps are different people. Molina is still on the steps. He is the only one out of the group! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:

"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."

This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:

"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."

Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:

"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."

Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:

Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!

Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.

There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.

Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.

Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.

Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.

"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."

So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??

I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best  Thumb1:

« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 01:29:29 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2023, 01:27:22 AM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2023, 03:16:37 AM »
Hey Michael, I believe the word is "wowser".
In your Reply#105 you were trying to sell the idea that the "Gloria Encounter" happened as she ran past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in the Couch clip:

"I just went through the frames again, in this frame they are about to meet a lady, Gloria Calvery, they talk for awhile, then she continues on towards the entrance of the TSBD."

This was quickly dispelled.
In your Reply#138 you had decided the "Gloria Encounter" hadn't happened at all:

"I can only concede at this time that Billy and Bill did not encounter Gloria Calvery."

Now we have the encounter happening at the Grassy Knoll:

"There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there."

Your approach to interpreting the evidence is "fluid", to say the least. I can't wait for the next installment.
As for the rest of your post, it's difficult to know where to begin:

Bill is saying that he ran to the Grassy Knoll ----the "corner of the park". Notice he said ran!

Except in the Couch clip "Shelley" is walking.
Shelley said he ran across the street before he met Gloria, he didn't say he walked down the street.

There at the corner of the Grassy Knoll was Gloria in hysterics as witnessed by Officer Smith and Bill and Billy who are all down there.

Except Shelley was on his own when he first encountered Gloria.

Officer Smith met Gloria as he was approaching the TSBD then "immediately proceeded" towards the "bushes" at the end of the Elm Street extension. You have him already in that area when he meets Gloria.

Lovelady was on the steps of the TSBD building when he first encountered Gloria.

"Molina met Gloria inside of the TSBD later in the lobby."

So Gloria and Hicks waited at the bottom of the steps until Molina returned, then decided to enter the TSBD building still hysterical about the assassination of JFK??

I'll stick with own interpretation of events if that's okay, I'm not really seeing anything in your theory I can get on board with.
All the best  Thumb1:

Hi Dan, I will always be fluid, and I will say I stand corrected immediately when corrected! Like I said before, you can see Bill picking up the pace after Billy starts running after Officer Smith. They all converged down by the concrete arcade by the picket fence where Gloria already was! As for Molina, he was always on the TSBD steps, so he did not return from anywhere! He met Gloria inside of the TSBD like he says in the lobby after Gloria had returned later! Thank you for all of your helpful valuable insights! Sincerely yours, Michael
   
Mr. SMITH. I didn’t know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No sir; except that maybe it was power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the—let’s put a No. 5 there [CE354] at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book depository Building. [7H535]
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was echo from the shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from.
Mr. SMITH. Yes. [7H536]
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 03:31:22 AM by Michael Welch »

Online Zeon Mason

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2023, 04:19:57 AM »
Idk if this is anything, but  in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
 man with a solid tone long sleeve  shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way)  becomes revealed  among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.

The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.


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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2023, 04:19:57 AM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2023, 06:19:28 AM »
Idk if this is anything, but  in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
 man with a solid tone long sleeve  shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way)  becomes revealed  among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.

The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.

Hi Zeon, Here is some work done I think by Jake Sykes.






I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2023, 08:47:09 AM »
Idk if this is anything, but  in Mr. Alan Fords Sept 16th post of slow motion from Darnell film, where Fords green arrow is pointing, a slender
 man with a solid tone long sleeve  shirt with hair similar to Oswald, (parted on the left side of head same way)  becomes revealed  among several women. He may be about 5’9” cause he’s not taller than any of the women.

The face dimension seems pretty close but maybe somebody else can show something to definitely rule one way or the other if this guy is Oswald or paste over a profile of Oswald to see how close it matches.

Do you mean this man, Mr. Mason?



He's not Mr. Oswald. Here he is in Darnell:



During the motorcade he was out in the line of spectators by the street.

It was once thought by some he might be Mr. Shelley..........................but no!

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2023, 08:47:09 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Where Did Prayer Woman Go After The Shooting?
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2023, 11:23:00 AM »
Hi Zeon, Here is some work done I think by Jake Sykes.






I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

I just remembered that the man walking at the bottom of the TSBD steps was identified years ago as Robert MacNeil not Bill Shelley!

Hi Michael, I won't bother asking you to cite this unsubstantiated claim as it is completely bogus.
Whichever poor soul came up with that ID had zero knowledge of MacNeil's actual movements and it's a pity unsuspecting researchers such as yourself have been hoodwinked by this nonsense.
Just type into Google (or whatever browser) "JFK Robert MacNeil" and a large number of videos and articles appear concerning Robert MacNeil and the assassination.
In every single one of them MacNeil makes it clear that as soon as he gets off the bus he races up to the Grassy Knoll. After being there for a few minutes he heads for the TSBD building.
This absolutely refutes the bogus identification you are innocently proposing.

To be honest, it took me but a few seconds to find these videos and articles and I honestly think it's something you should consider doing before simply posting such easily refutable claims.
All the best  Thumb1:

LATER EDIT:




 :D :D :D :D
That's brilliant!!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 11:29:42 AM by Dan O'meara »