Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie


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Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2022, 12:35:58 PM »
Exactly!  Thumb1:

I have NOT abandoned LHO=PM, Mr O'Meara. It is still--------pending release of clearer Darnell frames-------a live theory.

What I have been outlining in this thread is an alternative scenario (I always use that word when making a suggestion rather than an emphatic claim)

Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?



"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2022, 12:35:58 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2022, 01:56:09 PM »
"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps

But that's the man I'm talking about

Quote
, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.

More as though he is (re-?)joining a different woman-------note his stop and turn at the end

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2022, 02:00:17 PM »
In the light of Lovelady's admission that he didn't go inside the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes after the assassination, it is informative to examine his WC testimony to get an idea of how brazen his lies are. It must also be noted that Lovelady's lies are not in isolation, he is coordinating his lies with Bill Shelley and very often, during the testimonies of both men, they use the plural "us" and "we", even when asked questions specifically about their own experience.
Lovelady explains that, at the time of the assassination he was stood on the front steps with Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton. He hears the shots...:

"I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."

This statement gives the impression Gloria arrived on the scene very quickly. We see this moment in Darnell and it occurs seconds after the shooting.
After Gloria tells him JFK was shot...

"...we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building."

He couldn't be more clear - both men run towards "that little. old island" and down the Elm Street extension, towards the railroad tracks and then back into the TSBD building by the west door. This is an out-and-out lie being told to the WC. It's quite unbelievable.
Shelley reiterates this lie in his own WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

...

Mr. Ball: What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. Ball: At the west end?
Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.


Once again, the same story, with the same lie - after Gloria, both men go out to "that little, old island", down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Shelley continues this lie once inside the building:

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. Ball: Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Who else did you see?
Mr. Shelley: That's all we saw immediately.


"That's all we saw immediately". It's impressive that Shelley feels he can talk for Lovelady as to what he saw.

Why would these two men lie to the WC on this matter, and make no mistake -the are lying.
Why would they both then lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to approach the steps - at least three minutes. This lie could easily be exposed by Ball ( he interviews both men), but he let's it go.

Good analysis

Quote
I believe the point of the lies is to disguise:

a) That they went to the west door at all (their affidavits)
b) That they went to the west door immediately. (the addition of at least 3 minutes)

Here's where we differ: I suggest the point of the lies is that Mr Lovelady did not accompany Mr Shelley at all. He did not go out with Bill Shelley in front but stayed on the steps.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 02:04:20 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2022, 02:00:17 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2022, 04:52:10 PM »
As Alan points out, there is no good reason to assume the two figures walking west on the Elm extension are Shelly and Lovelady. They donít even appear to be walking together as one is walking faster and passes the other.

But there is even less reason to assume that the figure on the steps in black is Gloria Calvery.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2022, 01:12:12 AM »
From an 11/23/63 newspaper report, based on remarks by Chief Curry 11/22:




I suggest that this "immediate" leaving of the building refers to Mr Oswald's initial dash off the steps with Mr Shelley in front, within seconds of the last shot ringing out.

**

From another 11/23 newspaper report, again based on information given out 11/22:



I suggest that this refers to a different, later (ca. 10 mins post-assassination) sighting of Mr Oswald------------------------several minutes after he and Mr Shelley had RE-ENTERED the building via the west door

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 01:45:29 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2022, 01:25:40 AM »
Houston Post, 11/23

Does this sound like Mr Lovelady accompanied Mr Shelley down to the railroad yard?



**

And does this sound like Mr Lovelady accompanied Mr Shelley down to the railroad yard?

Mr James Jarman to HSCA: "Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs."

Was Mr Jarman hallucinating a conversation with Mr Lovelady in which Mr Lovelady told him he was standing on the front steps and saw Mr Oswald have this encounter with an officer?

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2022, 01:25:40 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2022, 01:33:36 AM »
Friends, I submit that all this has a simple solution:

Mr Oswald left the building twice after the assassination-----------------------------

FIRST: Immediately after the shots rang out (when he followed Mr Shelley off the steps)

SECOND: Several minutes later (when he was stopped at the front door by an officer but vouched for by Mr Truly)


Mr Shelley, for all his blatant lies, indirectly gives us the key to a crucial riddle:
Mr Oswald re-entered the building by the west door

Mr Lovelady played no role in either exit, other than that of eyewitness.

His resemblance to Mr Oswald, however, meant that he got dragged into a baloney story about being the man who accompanied Mr Shelley out front, then to the railroad yard, and then back into the building.

**

At some point in between Mr Oswald's two exits from the building, he was noticed in the small storage room near the domino room on the first floor. This was after Officer Baker & Mr Truly had come back down from the roof-------------------i.e. around the time of this scene:



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« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 01:46:47 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2022, 03:09:29 AM »
Since 2019, we know what Mr Oswald actually said in his first interrogation about the minutes leading up to the motorcade:



In the joint interrogation report of Agents Bookhout & Hosty, the danger posed by Mr Oswald's account is craftily minimized through carefully time-scrambling and vague wording:



But the craftiness doesn't end there!

Mr Oswald also spoke in that interrogation of time spent with Mr Bill Shelley. However! Mr Shelley does not merit ANY mention in that first official report. Nor does an encounter with a cop and Mr Truly which Mr Oswald has related. These things are simply being suppressed.

It is only once the 'investigating' authorities have agreed on a viable fairy tale story, that Mr Shelley---------and the cop/Truly encounter----------can finally be mentioned in a way that is non-fatal to the case against Mr Oswald. Cue Agent Bookhout's solo report:



On the scenario I have been outlining in this thread, what we are finally seeing 'included' here is
a) Mr Oswald's description of standing around with Bill Shelley for several minutes over by the railroad yards
b) Mr Oswald's account of his later cop/Truly encounter
---------------but ruthlessly twisted out of all context.

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 03:11:33 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2022, 03:09:29 AM »


 

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