JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 02:07:53 AM

Title: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 02:07:53 AM
Friends, in his same-day affidavit, Mr Bill Shelley says that, upon hearing three shots, he ran down off the front steps and encountered Ms Gloria Calvery out by the corner of the 'park'. She told him what she had just seen. Mr Shelley then went back to the building.

(Note! Mr Shelley was best man at Ms Calvery's wedding just months before, so he certainly isn't going to be confusing her with anyone else!)

No mention in this affidavit of Mr Billy Lovelady leaving the steps with him.

In his same-day affidavit, Mr Billy Lovelady makes no mention of any excursion off the steps with Mr Shelley.

**

By the time of their Warren Commission testimony, both men are telling the following story:

1. They both remained on the steps until such time as Ms Calvery came running up to those steps and told what she had seen
2. They then left the steps together and started heading west
3. However, before going down to the railroad tracks, they each turned around and noticed Mr Roy Truly and an officer 'fixin' to' enter the building (ca. 3-4 minutes after the shots!)
4. They spent a short time looking at the action in the railroad yards before re-entering the building (ca. 5 mins post-shooting) via the small west door

Question! Why has Mr Shelley so dramatically changed his story? Why does he no longer wish to talk of leaving the steps in time to meet Ms Calvery out by the corner of the park?

**

In his HSCA interview, Mr Lovelady--when confronted for the first time with video evidence of him standing on the front steps well after the assassination (Martin film)--will admit that he did not in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting!

Furthermore! The Darnell film appears to show Mr Lovelady (though no Mr Shelley) still on the steps ~30 secs post-shooting-------------with Officer Baker racing past Mr Truly towards the TSBD front entrance.

**

The story told by Messrs Shelley & Lovelady to the WC is, in short, a complete mess. They are clearly lying.

Question! WHY? What could be the Big Truth behind their Big Lie?

**

Let's start by making an eminently reasonable triple assumption---------:

1. Mr Shelley told the truth in his same-day affidavit (----> left steps quickly and encountered Ms Calvery out by the corner of the 'park')
2. Mr Lovelady did not leave the steps with him, but was still there (as per what Darnell appears to show) when Ms Calvery reached them AND was STILL there when Mr Martin's camera was filming those same steps some 20-30 minutes later
3. Neither Mr Shelley nor Mr Lovelady were guilty of any involvement in the assassination

Question! What might follow from these three premises?

Remember................it needs to be something important enough for Messrs Shelley and Lovelady to need to lie extravagantly to hide it!

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 03:49:49 AM
Now!

What if Mr Shelley ran off those steps very quickly indeed (as per his same-day affidavit), and was followed by someone who was also on the steps but was not Mr Lovelady? This someone might then quite literally be said to have gone out with Bill Shelley in front.

After checking out the scene down by the railroad yards, Mr Shelley and A. N. Other re-entered the building via the small west door.

Some things begin to fall into place, no? Starting with the need for a fake story of Mr Lovelady being the person who followed Mr Shelley............
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 04:22:49 AM
On the above scenario.......................

Mr Shelley and A. N. Other are now back inside the building. Mr Lovelady is still out on the steps.

Mr Robert MacNeil enters the building looking for a telephone. He notices three "calm" men on the first floor. One is Mr Shelley; another is A. N. Other; the third is (perhaps?) Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who has re-entered via the front door.

Several minutes later, Mr Roy Truly and Officer Baker return from the roof. They discuss the situation with------amongst others------TSBD Veep Mr Ochus Campbell. This scene is caught on Mr Tom Alyea's camera. Mr Campbell here witnesses a seemingly minor incident: Officer Baker notices A. N. Other in the small storage room over on the east side of the first floor, and wonders who the man is. He may even go over to him and challenge him. Mr Truly, however, informs Officer Baker that the man is ok, he works there. Mr Campbell will mention this seemingly minor incident to pressmen later that day.

A little later, and Mr Truly is at the front entrance with Lt. Eric Kaminski, who has been posted there to control who comes in and out. A. N. Other comes up, wishing to leave. Lt. Kaminski stops him and only lets him pass when Mr Truly vouches for him as an employee. This seemingly minor incident is witnessed by Mr Billy Lovelady, who is still standing out on the steps. In a few minutes' time he will mention it to Mr James Jarman, who will years later mention the fact to the HSCA.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 07:07:04 PM
Still within this scenario..................

Mr Shelley's having spent time away from the building in the company of A. N. Other presents the 'investigating' authorities with a major potential problem. Any number of TSBD-employee witnesses out on the street could come forward to say they noticed Mr Shelley (a well-known figure in the Depository) with this male employee. There might even be a photograph or two showing Messrs Shelley & Other together in the background.

Enter Mr Lovelady----------who bears enough of a resemblance to A. N. Other to occupy that man's role in the retelling of the tale. 'The witness must have confused him with Lovelady, who we know headed west with Shelley.' 'Yes, that man with Shelley looks like X, but our investigations have actually established that he is Billy Lovelady'

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 02, 2022, 07:12:52 PM
If A. N. Other went outside to watch the P. Parade wearing a white tshirt (no shirt, no jacket), then this complicates the Lovelady-as-Shelley's-companion deal.

Solution? Have Mr Lovelady pretend he was wearing a light-colored short-sleeved shirt when he himself went outside to watch P. Parade. (He won't get away with just a white tshirt-------------------> Altgens gives the lie to that!)

This---------again---------will make it easier to neutralize any pesky witnesses who might come forward ('Not X, but Lovelady'), and explain away the appearance of A. N. Other with Mr Shelley in the background of any photograph/film ('Not X, but Lovelady').

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 03, 2022, 01:57:34 AM
Several minutes later, Mr Roy Truly and Officer Baker return from the roof. They discuss the situation with------amongst others------TSBD Veep Mr Ochus Campbell. This scene is caught on Mr Tom Alyea's camera. Mr Campbell here witnesses a seemingly minor incident: Officer Baker notices A. N. Other in the small storage room over on the east side of the first floor, and wonders who the man is. He may even go over to him and challenge him. Mr Truly, however, informs Officer Baker that the man is ok, he works there. Mr Campbell will mention this seemingly minor incident to pressmen later that day.

Sidebar!

Is the man in the background (beside Mr Truly, behind Mr Campbell)
=======> holding a soda bottle in his right hand (initial frames)
=======> taking a sip from it (later frames)
?

(https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://gifyu.com/image/SKTBo)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 06:13:00 AM

By the time of their Warren Commission testimony, both men are telling the following story:

1. They both remained on the steps until such time as Ms Calvery came running up to those steps and told what she had seen
2. They then left the steps together and started heading west
3. However, before going down to the railroad tracks, they each turned around and noticed Mr Roy Truly and an officer 'fixin' to' enter the building (ca. 3-4 minutes after the shots!)

Contrast this WC testimony account with what Mr Lovelady is saying-----------or is being made to say-------------in this 11/22/63 FBI interview report, taken after the DPD affidavit:

He heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.

This describes a very quick departure from the steps.

I am suggesting, on the scenario outlined on this thread, that Mr Lovelady may here be describing not what he did but what Mr Oswald did:

He heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.

"Out with Bill Shelley in front"

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 06:27:48 AM
If A. N. Other went outside to watch the P. Parade wearing a white tshirt (no shirt, no jacket), then this complicates the Lovelady-as-Shelley's-companion deal.

Solution? Have Mr Lovelady pretend he was wearing a light-colored short-sleeved shirt when he himself went outside to watch P. Parade. (He won't get away with just a white tshirt-------------------> Altgens gives the lie to that!)

This---------again---------will make it easier to neutralize any pesky witnesses who might come forward ('Not X, but Lovelady'), and explain away the appearance of A. N. Other with Mr Shelley in the background of any photograph/film ('Not X, but Lovelady').

Well!

Mr Lovelady will later claim that the short-sleeved shirt thing was a misunderstanding: he never told FBI he was wearing such on the day of the assassination, he merely happened to wear it on the day of the photo shoot at the FBI Dallas Office (late Feb '64), and they got the wrong end of the stick.....................

Unfortunately, however, this doesn't wash. In May '64, before the photograph of Mr Lovelady wearing the short-sleeved shirt is out in the public domain, the following is published by Mr Dom Bonafede:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZw8Zhsm/Lovelady-Bonafede-shirt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Are we really to believe that Mr Jones Harris made the exact same mistake as the FBI? Or that he enjoyed privileged access to their not-yet-public photographs of Mr Lovelady?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRjtSk4K/Lovelady-FBI-brighter-front.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Hardly! For some reason, Mr Lovelady is sticking by the lie that he wore a shirt on 11/22 other than the one he actually wore.

I am suggesting that the reason may in fact be: in case the white t-shirt-wearing Mr Oswald should turn up beside Mr Shelley in the background of a Dealey Plaza aftermath photo.

And for the selfsame reason, Mr Lovelady is, in the months following the assassination, paranoid-------and I mean paranoid--------about having his photograph taken under non-controlled conditions. He has been told to keep himself viable as the Oswald Stand-In for the contingency of an Oswald+Shelley photograph turning up.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 06:56:29 AM
Which brings us to this ridiculous, naturalistically impossible 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's side in the Wiegman film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25gCpBmk/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

We know beyond any doubt that, at the time this image was taken, Mr Lovelady was in fact facing into full direct sunlight.

But why would a fake shadow need to be added? To hide a simple but---------on the scenario outlined on this thread----------dangerous detail:

Mr Lovelady was in long sleeves

Sans fake shadow, Wiegman would have put the lie to this little charade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRjtSk4K/Lovelady-FBI-brighter-front.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 07:04:08 AM
On this scenario:

Mr Lovelady's innocent presence on the front steps, and his innocent resemblance to Mr Oswald, meant that-------------through no fault of his own-------------he was used to help deprive Mr Oswald of a clearer-than-clearest-day alibi
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 07:18:33 AM
Still on this scenario:

What if Mr Shelley tells the 'investigating' authorities that
-----Mr Oswald was definitely not in long sleeves
-----however, he cannot be 100% sure whether Mr Oswald was wearing a white tshirt only or the reddish shirt he wore to work that day over his white tshirt

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHH23yrK/LHO-shirt.png) (https://postimages.org/)

This is a potential headache! What if a color Dealey Plaza aftermath photograph or film should turn up showing Shelley+LHO together in the background?

Least worst solution: spread bets by giving Mr Lovelady a red-and-white striped short sleeved shirt. Should the worst come to the worst, 'photoanalyst experts' can be found to explain to the unwashed masses how colors can seem to wash into one another at long range. If the man with Mr Shelley looks to be in white, then the red of Mr Lovelady's claimed shirt can be explained away; if in red, then the white can be explained away.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 07:27:36 AM
With the passage of time, worry about a Dealey Plaza aftermath image of Shelley+LHO recedes. Mr Lovelady is now free to 'clarify' the issue of his upper garment. And he loses his paranoia about being photographed:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NjCcTCNC/Lovelady-1967-query.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 07:35:38 AM
But there is one more shock in store for the poor man.

In November 1976, he is interviewed for the HSCA. All is going well until near the end of the interview, when Mr Robert Groden hits him with the Martin film, which shows Mr Lovelady out on the steps plenty minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2qjHQYN/Lovelady-in-Martin.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting.

Nobody but Mr Lovelady realises it, but this is WAY more dangerous than all the crazy hooplah over Doorwayman in Altgens.

In January 1979, Mr Lovelady dies aged 41 of a heart attack.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 09:04:45 AM
Still on this scenario:

The fact that Mr Oswald was seen dashing off those front steps very soon after the shots rang out reached the ears of Chief Jesse Curry, who related the fact later that day in garbled fashion------------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkz2n14/Oswald-entrance-Curry-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

"Oswald rushed out"

Chief Curry is erroneously combining Mr Oswald's 12:30 dash from the steps (following Mr Shelley) with his later front-door encounter with Lt. Kaminski. It is possible he has also heard word of Officer Baker's first-floor sighting of Mr Oswald (Mr Ochus Campbell's storage room report), and is putting 2+2 together to make 5 because of the fact that Officer Baker dashed into the building just after the shooting.

By next day, all of this will be cleaned up into a single second-floor lunchroom encounter---------------a fictional incident whose purpose is to disappear Mr Oswald's alibi, and whose location has its origin in what Mr Oswald actually told Captain Fritz:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 09:18:12 AM
Here is Mr Oswald (blue arrow) being brought into the Homicide Office in handcuffs:

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrBZtjb3/LHO-homicide-office-door-Shelley.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Lovelady is sitting on a chair, watching on.

Mr Oswald cannot immediately be brought into the small back room, because Mr Shelley is in there (purple arrow). He is giving his first affidavit, freely telling of his encounter with Ms Gloria Calvery out by the corner of the 'park'.

He will be asked to give a second affidavit, this one treating of the man who has just been brought in as a suspect.

Like Mr Oswald, Mr Shelley will honestly state that he went outside to watch the P. Parade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkSbK7wW/Shelley-affidavit-2-nov22-outside.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But then his statement will be carefully worded so as to omit a key interval of time containing the simple sequence of events that clears Mr Oswald of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/507ggRhh/Shelley-not-see-lee.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

What's been left out? Why the several minutes between being outside on the front steps and being back inside the building 'checking around' for employees.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 09:38:19 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kqvBGFR/6lpq32.gif)

Has residual evidence of a sudden, downward movement managed to survive in the pre-penultimate and penultimate doorway frames of the publicly available Wiegman film? With the shadow-requiring Mr Lovelady now out of the picture, have the 'investigators' gotten sloppy in their doctoring and let a dangerous detail slip through?

Is this the moment Mr Shelley started to make his dash?

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 10:00:44 AM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes (just behind Mr Carl Edward Jones):

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyVBL44c/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Look closely, and you will see a figure in blue behind him, closer to the center of the doorway.

Who can it be? It can't be Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who is not in blue. I believe it's Mr Shelley.

A few seconds later, and Mr Lovelady has moved over to the center of the doorway and back up a few steps. Just behind him, I believe, is Mr Shelley:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmgP47Qz/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0008-SHELLEY.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now cf!:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kqvBGFR/6lpq32.gif)

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 10:11:59 AM
So!

If the scenario I have outlined in this thread is correct, then it follows that Prayer Man in Darnell is not Mr Oswald. He had already left the steps and was way west by the time Darnell filmed those frames.

So who might Prayer Man in Darnell be?

I believe it may in fact be Ms Carolyn Arnold, whom Mr Shelley in his March 64 FBI statement names as one of the people on the steps at the time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsRXHcsP/Shelley-sees-Arnold.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

She may have been the young woman whom Mr Ronald Fischer noticed going into the building just before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgKvQwZN/Ronald-Fischer.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

She was six months pregnant, and may have wished to get out of the sun.

Because everyone on the steps was intently awaiting the motorcade, Ms Arnold's arrival there went all but unnoticed (only Mr Shelley, who ended up standing beside her, noticed).

She had noticed Mr Oswald up in the lunchroom several minutes before this. And as she now went up the steps to get into the shade, she noticed him again: standing behind the glass door. The FBI will see to it that this sighting is reflected in her FBI interview report, but they will grossly distort the true time and circumstances. This gives them insurance lest she go public with her story: 'She told us something different, now she's changing her story for sensational effect.'

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 04, 2022, 10:16:31 AM
And here (I believe) is Mr Lovelady still on the steps in Darnell, and hearing about what has happened from Ms Gloria Calvery-----------the same Ms Gloria Calvery whom Mr Shelley has already encountered out by the corner of the 'park'.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c1g08rcS/Lovelady-Calvary-in-Darnell-larger.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Shelley is nowhere to be seen in Darnell. He has left the steps and gone west with Mr Oswald.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 06, 2022, 01:49:49 AM
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.


If Mr Shelley is telling the geographical truth here, but pretending he went out there with Mr Lovelady rather than with Mr Oswald, then this may be Mr Oswald out there, in white teeshirt:

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkV8RYxf/6lvuwp.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Imagine if this is indeed Mr Oswald, but we were getting a clearer/closer image of him than Darnell is giving us here. You see how the issue of Mr Lovelady's upper garment would become life-or-death for the survival of the official story...............

(https://i.postimg.cc/q7y5340Z/Lovelady-FBI-brighter-front.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 06, 2022, 02:16:32 AM
And this may be Mr Shelley, his focus already turned away from the main street as he notices Officer Baker head for the front steps............

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxXGkQ4Z/6lvy0w.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Lovelady will notice Officer Baker too--------------only NOT from out on the concrete divider------------->Officer Baker is about to dash past him on the steps!

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 06, 2022, 02:21:39 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkV8RYxf/6lvuwp.gif) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/CxXGkQ4Z/6lvy0w.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

In a few seconds' time, Mr Shelley and (following him) Mr Oswald will start moving west down the dead-end street as far as the first railroad track:

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5WXwr5L/Dealey-aerial-to-track.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GTkdsgkm)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 06, 2022, 02:31:07 AM
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened,

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw0V88Cv/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 and that he saw all the excitement..............

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkV8RYxf/6lvuwp.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 06, 2022, 02:47:31 AM
Mr Shelley & Mr Lovelady's undoing?
Their absurd claim that they
a) both stayed on the front steps long enough to hear Ms Gloria Calvery come up and tell what had happened
AND
b) were already out at the concrete street divider when Mr Truly and the officer started up those front steps!

In reality,

-------------Mr Shelley encountered Ms Calvery out at the corner of that street divider, BEFORE she reached the steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJz3QRPw/Shelley-Calvery.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

-------------Mr Lovelady did not follow Mr Shelley off the steps but stayed there:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN3xmJq2/Lovelady-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2022, 01:02:37 AM
In 2013 Mr Buell Wesley Frazier said this:

"... some of the people Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady they went down to the triple underpass, before they went down there a lady come by, a woman came by and she was crying and said that somebody had shot The President. And so we looked bewildered and  I turned to Sarah and she said she said somebody had shot The President. And I said I thought that was what she said. She said she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes and I walked down to the first  step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps and I looked around and it was just total chaos there and then from there I started to go down and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and there was so much chaos down there that I said well I better go back to work ..."

Perhaps Mr Frazier means 'I walked down to the first step to where Billy HAD BEEN standing on the bottom of the steps", but mentioning Mr Lovelady in this way seems kinda odd. Why not just say, "I walked down to the bottom of the steps"? And why no mention of Mr Shelley in this context?

Has Mr Frazier slipped up and described the actual scene he has in his memory?---------> walked down to the first  step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps------------> i.e. Mr Frazier joined Mr Lovelady there

At the time Mr Frazier went down the steps, was Mr Lovelady still in the spot we see him in in Darnell, i.e. at the bottom of the steps?

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN3xmJq2/Lovelady-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And does Mr Frazier get himself rather awkwardly back on script by coupling up Messrs Shelley and Lovelady again with "...and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady"?

**

Put the two statements together and the thing reads strangely:

"I walked down to the first step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps and ... then from there I started to go down and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady"
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2022, 03:19:58 AM
Friends, some folks claim that this is Messrs Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film:

(https://i.postimg.cc/V69pnkTg/Shelley-and-Lovelady-in-Couch.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

There are only two problems:

1. That is Mr Danny Arce, not Mr Bill Shelley

2. The much-made claim that what seals the deal on Mr Lovelady is the 'plaid' pattern on his shirt ignores the 'plaid' pattern on the other man's coat:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDQfjwcQ/Couch-arce-plaid.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

And look at how the 'plaid' on the 'Lovelady' shirt moves around from frame to frame.

It's just film noise!

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2022, 03:47:32 AM
From Mr Roy Truly's WC testimony:

Mr. TRULY. ... this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers
, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.


Huh? The Darnell film shows the scene as Officer Baker dashes by Mr Truly, just seconds after the events Mr Truly has been describing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tf1FqwQ/darnell-unger-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Does it seem realistic that Mr Truly had just before this been 'practically bor(ne) back to the first step' of the entrance 'through weight of numbers'? Hardly! It's fantasy land stuff.

But why would he embellish like this?

Well, it's a neat way for Mr Truly to so put himself in a crush of people as to plausibly distract him from anything else that might have been going on in those first seconds after the shooting. Why, it gives him positively TROY WEST levels of See-No-Evil blindness!

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2022, 04:12:11 AM
From Mr James Jarman's HSCA interview:

"We ran to the front of the building and as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he told us to come back inside... after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and come down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us. And, Oswald was coming out the door and (Billy Lovelady, who had been standing out on the steps - A.F.) said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.”

Mr Jarman wondered why the officer at the door (-------------->Officer Eric Kaminski?) didn't send Mr Oswald back inside, as he did with them.

On the scenario outlined in this thread, I suggest that Mr Truly could say with certainty of Mr Oswald what he couldn't at this point say of Mr Jarman & Co.: he couldn't have been the shooter, because he was known to have been down at or by the front entrance when the shots were fired.

How would Mr Truly have known this of Mr Oswald?

Either Mr Shelley had told Mr Truly of his own (and Mr Oswald's) immediate post-shots movements,
or (and more simply) Mr Truly himself had noticed Mr Oswald leaving the steps immediately after the shooting--------with Mr Shelley in front (they were going OUT to the street divider; Mr Truly was going in the opposite direction, back towards the entrance)

Mr Oswald could no more be the gunman than Mr Shelley
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 08, 2022, 04:32:21 AM
Still on this scenario

Mr Oswald, in custody, gives a true account of his movements:

-broke for lunch
-second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke
-down to one to eat lunch
-went outside to watch P. Parade
-immediately after hearing shots: out with Bill Shelley in front
-saw all the excitement (on Elm St., in railroad yard)
-returned to building by west door with Bill Shelley
-some time later, based on remarks made by Bill Shelley, decided to leave
-stopped at front door by officer, but let pass after being vouched for by Mr Truly

These honest claims will be viciously distorted from one interrogation report to the next, with all sorts of nonsense being put in Mr Oswald's mouth.

Thus---------for example--------the time outside with Mr Shelley immediately following the shooting (concrete 'island' + railroad yards) will become stood around outside with Bill Shelley for five or ten minutes AFTER encounter with cop & Mr Truly in lunchroom, followed by eating lunch on one, and then going outside for the first time

----------Mr Shelley had the misfortune to have spent quality time with the now-accused immediately after the assassination
----------Mr Lovelady had the misfortune to have the wrong face in the wrong place at the wrong time


Hence these two men's------otherwise inexplicable and seemingly unnecessary-------lies.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2022, 12:49:19 AM
This is, by far, the loneliest thread I've ever seen...which is a pity, as you have raised a massively important issue.
Lovelady's admission that he didn't enter the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes (confirmed by the Martin and Hughes films), reveals a series of lies in which Lovelady and Shelley were complicit.
They lie from the very outset.
Why would two, honest working men just going about their daily business lie to the authorities from the get-go about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
This is the murder of the most powerful man on the planet at the time and these two normal working men, rather than simply report what they did after the shooting, lie relentlessly.
But what is it, exactly, they are lying about?

I'm glad to see you've abandoned your Oswald-is-Prayer-Man bullsh$t, and not before time.

Note in the Darnell pic you've posted of Gloria talking to Lovelady on the steps, there is a man dressed exactly the same as Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps - precisely where Frazier places him.
It is surely after this brief conversation with Calvary that both men head for the west door (something they both conveniently forget to mention in their affidavits).
In their WC hearings both men get the chance to set the record straight. Instead, they both introduce the lie of seeing Baker and Truly approaching the TSBD building steps at least 3 minutes after the shooting (both men do this). Why are they both telling this lie?
Is it to do with how quickly they got to the west door? What did Lovelady do if he didn't go inside the building?
Both men lie in their WC testimonies about how they both entered the west door at the same time - why?
What's happening at the west door?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 09, 2022, 11:55:27 AM
This is, by far, the loneliest thread I've ever seen...which is a pity, as you have raised a massively important issue.
Lovelady's admission that he didn't enter the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes (confirmed by the Martin and Hughes films), reveals a series of lies in which Lovelady and Shelley were complicit.
They lie from the very outset.
Why would two, honest working men just going about their daily business lie to the authorities from the get-go about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
This is the murder of the most powerful man on the planet at the time and these two normal working men, rather than simply report what they did after the shooting, lie relentlessly.
But what is it, exactly, they are lying about?

Exactly!  Thumb1:

Quote
I'm glad to see you've abandoned your Oswald-is-Prayer-Man bullsh$t, and not before time.

I have NOT abandoned LHO=PM, Mr O'Meara. It is still--------pending release of clearer Darnell frames-------a live theory.

What I have been outlining in this thread is an alternative scenario (I always use that word when making a suggestion rather than an emphatic claim)

Quote
Note in the Darnell pic you've posted of Gloria talking to Lovelady on the steps, there is a man dressed exactly the same as Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps - precisely where Frazier places him.

Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tf1FqwQ/darnell-unger-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2022, 12:29:24 PM
In the light of Lovelady's admission that he didn't go inside the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes after the assassination, it is informative to examine his WC testimony to get an idea of how brazen his lies are. It must also be noted that Lovelady's lies are not in isolation, he is coordinating his lies with Bill Shelley and very often, during the testimonies of both men, they use the plural "us" and "we", even when asked questions specifically about their own experience.
Lovelady explains that, at the time of the assassination he was stood on the front steps with Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton. He hears the shots...:

"I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."

This statement gives the impression Gloria arrived on the scene very quickly. We see this moment in Darnell and it occurs seconds after the shooting.
After Gloria tells him JFK was shot...

"...we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building."

He couldn't be more clear - both men run towards "that little. old island" and down the Elm Street extension, towards the railroad tracks and then back into the TSBD building by the west door. This is an out-and-out lie being told to the WC. It's quite unbelievable.
Shelley reiterates this lie in his own WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

...

Mr. Ball: What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. Ball: At the west end?
Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.


Once again, the same story, with the same lie - after Gloria, both men go out to "that little, old island", down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Shelley continues this lie once inside the building:

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. Ball: Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Who else did you see?
Mr. Shelley: That's all we saw immediately.


"That's all we saw immediately". It's impressive that Shelley feels he can talk for Lovelady as to what he saw.

Why would these two men lie to the WC on this matter, and make no mistake -the are lying.
Why would they both then lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to approach the steps - at least three minutes. This lie could easily be exposed by Ball ( he interviews both men), but he let's it go.

I believe the point of the lies is to disguise:

a) That they went to the west door at all (their affidavits)
b) That they went to the west door immediately. (the addition of at least 3 minutes)

Once it is established both men are lying and that both men are telling the same lies, it is imperative to get to the bottom of it. It is a fascinating fact that, other than Danny Arce, every single man who was on the 6th floor that morning lies to the authorities in their various statements and testimonies:

Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty
Williams
Norman



Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 09, 2022, 12:35:58 PM
Exactly!  Thumb1:

I have NOT abandoned LHO=PM, Mr O'Meara. It is still--------pending release of clearer Darnell frames-------a live theory.

What I have been outlining in this thread is an alternative scenario (I always use that word when making a suggestion rather than an emphatic claim)

Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tf1FqwQ/darnell-unger-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 09, 2022, 01:56:09 PM
"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps

But that's the man I'm talking about

Quote
, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.

More as though he is (re-?)joining a different woman-------note his stop and turn at the end
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 09, 2022, 02:00:17 PM
In the light of Lovelady's admission that he didn't go inside the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes after the assassination, it is informative to examine his WC testimony to get an idea of how brazen his lies are. It must also be noted that Lovelady's lies are not in isolation, he is coordinating his lies with Bill Shelley and very often, during the testimonies of both men, they use the plural "us" and "we", even when asked questions specifically about their own experience.
Lovelady explains that, at the time of the assassination he was stood on the front steps with Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton. He hears the shots...:

"I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."

This statement gives the impression Gloria arrived on the scene very quickly. We see this moment in Darnell and it occurs seconds after the shooting.
After Gloria tells him JFK was shot...

"...we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building."

He couldn't be more clear - both men run towards "that little. old island" and down the Elm Street extension, towards the railroad tracks and then back into the TSBD building by the west door. This is an out-and-out lie being told to the WC. It's quite unbelievable.
Shelley reiterates this lie in his own WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

...

Mr. Ball: What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. Ball: At the west end?
Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.


Once again, the same story, with the same lie - after Gloria, both men go out to "that little, old island", down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Shelley continues this lie once inside the building:

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. Ball: Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Who else did you see?
Mr. Shelley: That's all we saw immediately.


"That's all we saw immediately". It's impressive that Shelley feels he can talk for Lovelady as to what he saw.

Why would these two men lie to the WC on this matter, and make no mistake -the are lying.
Why would they both then lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to approach the steps - at least three minutes. This lie could easily be exposed by Ball ( he interviews both men), but he let's it go.

Good analysis

Quote
I believe the point of the lies is to disguise:

a) That they went to the west door at all (their affidavits)
b) That they went to the west door immediately. (the addition of at least 3 minutes)

Here's where we differ: I suggest the point of the lies is that Mr Lovelady did not accompany Mr Shelley at all. He did not go out with Bill Shelley in front but stayed on the steps.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 09, 2022, 04:52:10 PM
As Alan points out, there is no good reason to assume the two figures walking west on the Elm extension are Shelly and Lovelady. They don’t even appear to be walking together as one is walking faster and passes the other.

But there is even less reason to assume that the figure on the steps in black is Gloria Calvery.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2022, 01:12:12 AM
From an 11/23/63 newspaper report, based on remarks by Chief Curry 11/22:

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Y3PLCB/Oswald-leaving-immediately1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqxsLhjj/Oswald-leaving-immediately2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fV6gFGy2)

I suggest that this "immediate" leaving of the building refers to Mr Oswald's initial dash off the steps with Mr Shelley in front, within seconds of the last shot ringing out.

**

From another 11/23 newspaper report, again based on information given out 11/22:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YsNHym7/Oswald-in-TSBD-10-mins-11-23-63-Houston-Post-marked.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cz8879yL)

I suggest that this refers to a different, later (ca. 10 mins post-assassination) sighting of Mr Oswald------------------------several minutes after he and Mr Shelley had RE-ENTERED the building via the west door

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2022, 01:25:40 AM
Houston Post, 11/23

Does this sound like Mr Lovelady accompanied Mr Shelley down to the railroad yard?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrvsKqvW/Lovelady-Houston-Post-Nov-23.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

**

And does this sound like Mr Lovelady accompanied Mr Shelley down to the railroad yard?

Mr James Jarman to HSCA: "Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs."

Was Mr Jarman hallucinating a conversation with Mr Lovelady in which Mr Lovelady told him he was standing on the front steps and saw Mr Oswald have this encounter with an officer?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2022, 01:33:36 AM
Friends, I submit that all this has a simple solution:

Mr Oswald left the building twice after the assassination-----------------------------

FIRST: Immediately after the shots rang out (when he followed Mr Shelley off the steps)

SECOND: Several minutes later (when he was stopped at the front door by an officer but vouched for by Mr Truly)


Mr Shelley, for all his blatant lies, indirectly gives us the key to a crucial riddle:
Mr Oswald re-entered the building by the west door

Mr Lovelady played no role in either exit, other than that of eyewitness.

His resemblance to Mr Oswald, however, meant that he got dragged into a baloney story about being the man who accompanied Mr Shelley out front, then to the railroad yard, and then back into the building.

**

At some point in between Mr Oswald's two exits from the building, he was noticed in the small storage room near the domino room on the first floor. This was after Officer Baker & Mr Truly had come back down from the roof-------------------i.e. around the time of this scene:

(https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://gifyu.com/image/SKTBo)

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2022, 03:09:29 AM
Since 2019, we know what Mr Oswald actually said in his first interrogation about the minutes leading up to the motorcade:

(https://i.postimg.cc/76f0BKFz/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the joint interrogation report of Agents Bookhout & Hosty, the danger posed by Mr Oswald's account is craftily minimized through carefully time-scrambling and vague wording:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Zw7vPvw/Bookhout-Hosty-2-coke.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

But the craftiness doesn't end there!

Mr Oswald also spoke in that interrogation of time spent with Mr Bill Shelley. However! Mr Shelley does not merit ANY mention in that first official report. Nor does an encounter with a cop and Mr Truly which Mr Oswald has related. These things are simply being suppressed.

It is only once the 'investigating' authorities have agreed on a viable fairy tale story, that Mr Shelley---------and the cop/Truly encounter----------can finally be mentioned in a way that is non-fatal to the case against Mr Oswald. Cue Agent Bookhout's solo report:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1GDSBtC/Bookhout-solo-lunchroom-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

On the scenario I have been outlining in this thread, what we are finally seeing 'included' here is
a) Mr Oswald's description of standing around with Bill Shelley for several minutes over by the railroad yards
b) Mr Oswald's account of his later cop/Truly encounter
---------------but ruthlessly twisted out of all context.

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 10, 2022, 06:00:16 PM
So!

The 'investigating' authorities know that Mr Oswald has an iron-clad alibi.

Mr Lovelady pretends---------or rather: is told by the 'investigating' authorities to pretend----------that he was the man who accompanied Mr Shelley off those steps, out to the concrete divider, and over west to the first railroad track.

But the worst case scenario is always possible: a photograph/film clearly putting Mr Oswald and no one else outside with Mr Shelley. Such that the 'It's Lovelady' line just doesn't wash.

Preemptive solution? Get Messrs Shelley & Lovelady to estimate that they didn't leave the front steps until 3-4 minutes after the shooting.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.


Quite ridiculous, of course, but it means that not even Mr Oswald showing up outside would exonerate him. He would have had time to fire the shots, make it down to the lunchroom for his encounter with Baker/Truly, and then leave the building.

As for what Mr Shelley would say in response to the emergence of an undeniable image of Mr Oswald away from the steps (e.g. on concrete street divider; on dead-end street; over west by first railroad track)? 'With all the excitement, I just didn't notice him there. But Billy was definitely there with me, he must be somewhere out of shot in this particular photo/film.'

Fairy-tale saved!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 11, 2022, 01:05:29 AM
As Alan points out, there is no good reason to assume the two figures walking west on the Elm extension are Shelly and Lovelady. They don’t even appear to be walking together as one is walking faster and passes the other.

But there is even less reason to assume that the figure on the steps in black is Gloria Calvery.

I agree with the analysis of the two figures walking down Elm Street, they are clearly not walking together.
but there are plenty of reasons to assume the figure wearing black on the steps is Gloria Calvary.
In the Darnell footage it can be discerned that the figure in black is wearing what can only be a black head scarf and is linking arms with a woman wearing a white head scarf and an all white outfit. The figure in black is faced towards a man stood on the steps.
This is a very good fit with Billy Lovelady's description of Gloria Calvary running up to the steps and telling him the President had been shot. The woman in the black head scarf and, in particular, the woman in white can be identified in the Zapruder footage as standing in a position on Elm from which they can see JFK's head explode - and that is clearly what Calvary has seen.

Can Gloria and the woman in white run from this position to the TSBD steps before Baker gets there?
The answer is that this could easily be done given the distance involved.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 11, 2022, 01:18:14 AM
Friends, I submit that all this has a simple solution:

Mr Oswald left the building twice after the assassination-----------------------------

FIRST: Immediately after the shots rang out (when he followed Mr Shelley off the steps)

SECOND: Several minutes later (when he was stopped at the front door by an officer but vouched for by Mr Truly)


Mr Shelley, for all his blatant lies, indirectly gives us the key to a crucial riddle:
Mr Oswald re-entered the building by the west door

Mr Lovelady played no role in either exit, other than that of eyewitness.

His resemblance to Mr Oswald, however, meant that he got dragged into a baloney story about being the man who accompanied Mr Shelley out front, then to the railroad yard, and then back into the building.

**

At some point in between Mr Oswald's two exits from the building, he was noticed in the small storage room near the domino room on the first floor. This was after Officer Baker & Mr Truly had come back down from the roof-------------------i.e. around the time of this scene:

(https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://gifyu.com/image/SKTBo)

 Thumb1:

Correct me if I'm wrong Alan, but in this scenario you are saying that Oswald isn't Prayer Man but was someone else stood on the steps who then left with Bill Shelley?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 11, 2022, 01:31:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong Alan, but in this scenario you are saying that Oswald isn't Prayer Man but was someone else stood on the steps who then left with Bill Shelley?

Well, three possibilities suggest themselves within this scenario:

1. Mr Oswald is the 'Prayer Man' figure in Wiegman but not the 'Prayer Man' figure in Darnell

2. Mr Oswald is standing somewhere else on the steps

3. Mr Oswald is standing behind the glass door (or at the open door) when the shots are fired, and subsequently goes down the steps and out front after Mr Shelley

I would tend towards #2
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2022, 03:45:01 AM
If this is Mr Lovelady in the Darnell film-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN3xmJq2/Lovelady-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

------------------then it is even possible that the man passing out Mr Danny Arce in the Couch film is none other than Mr Oswald--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5m840Lc/Shelley-and-Lovelady-in-Couch.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

-------------who is following Mr Shelley, who is already a ways west
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 12, 2022, 06:14:32 AM
Carolyn Arnold made no statement (as far as I know) locating herself where PM is standing in west corner of the entrance landing at the time of shots fired.

So Oswald is still the most probable candidate to be PM (imo) given the object in PM’s hand being most likely a bottle ( which Carolyn Arnold did NOT have) and given the other numerous reasons of which a primary one is the Hosty note.

At this time I see no reason to supplant a  well reasoned theory for Oswald=PM (which has explanations for improbability of being noticed by others on the front steps) , with a more convoluted theory that’s even more improbable to explain Oswald unnoticed as he’s running with Shelly !? Let alone not captured in any definitive way by camera ( as opposed to the image of PM in Darnell and Weigman)


Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2022, 02:43:27 PM
Carolyn Arnold made no statement (as far as I know) locating herself where PM is standing in west corner of the entrance landing at the time of shots fired.

So Oswald is still the most probable candidate to be PM (imo) given the object in PM’s hand being most likely a bottle ( which Carolyn Arnold did NOT have) and given the other numerous reasons of which a primary one is the Hosty note.

At this time I see no reason to supplant a  well reasoned theory for Oswald=PM (which has explanations for improbability of being noticed by others on the front steps) , with a more convoluted theory that’s even more improbable to explain Oswald unnoticed as he’s running with Shelly !? Let alone not captured in any definitive way by camera ( as opposed to the image of PM in Darnell and Weigman)

I take your point, Mr Mason, and have made clear a few posts back that I have by no means rejected the PM=LHO theory.

However! Four points are worth pondering:

1. Ms Arnold is not a random candidate for PM. a) Mr Shelley places her on the steps at the time of the assassination; b) Mr Ronald Fischer saw a young woman going into that entranceway very shortly before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza. 2+2 may equal 4 here-----------a possibility that is all the more live as we have no confirmed 11/22/63 image of Ms Arnold to compare with PM-in-Darnell.

2. The lies of Messrs Shelley & Lovelady, as explored in this thread, require a compelling explanation. LHO=PM does not seem to offer that.

3. The blatantly false shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in Wiegman requires a compelling explanation. LHO=PM does not seem to offer that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/25gCpBmk/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

4. I believe the unaltered (or at least close to unaltered) Altgens photograph was shown once and only once to the American public-----------by Mr Walter Cronkite the evening of the assassination. If it is showing what I believe it may be showing, then we may be catching a glimpse of Mr Oswald not in the PM location but (what a coincidence!) in the selfsame area that has been artificially darkened in Wiegman

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw0V88Cv/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 12, 2022, 02:50:07 PM
If this is Mr Lovelady in the Darnell film-----------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN3xmJq2/Lovelady-in-Darnell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

------------------then it is even possible that the man passing out Mr Danny Arce in the Couch film is none other than Mr Oswald--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5m840Lc/Shelley-and-Lovelady-in-Couch.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

-------------who is following Mr Shelley, who is already a ways west

Friends, this part of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony may be of very great importance:

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.


 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 13, 2022, 02:04:00 AM
Well!

Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes clearly recalls that Mr Oswald talked in custody of a front entrance encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly. Mr Holmes also has a vague recollection that a coke somehow featured in Mr Oswald's claim:

as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone." And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

OK. Something about a coke.

Now, there is another curious detail in here: Mr Oswald, we are supposed to believe, having been told by the officer NOT to leave but to "step aside for a little bit" DISREGARDED this direction and "went on out the door" anyway-----------------without the officer noticing or doing anything to stop him.

This seems most improbable, as
a) Mr Oswald would hardly volunteer to Captain Fritz that he performed such a blatant & suspicious act of disobedience towards a police officer
b) the officer, being at the door, would hardly have been so negligent as to let him pass having just told him to "step aside for a little bit".

**

I would like to offer a scenario that might make sense of Mr Holmes' somewhat muddy recollection of what Mr Oswald said.

This scenario is still within the overall scenario I have been outlining in the present thread.

**

1. Mr Oswald buys a coke before the motorcade and, having come back down to one to eat his lunch, goes outside to watch the P. Parade with the coke. We may even have photographic evidence (thanks to Mr Cronkite) of him actually drinking from the bottle at the very time of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw0V88Cv/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

2. Right after the shots ring out, Mr Shelley dashes down and off the steps to see what's happened out in the street; Mr Oswald follows him off the steps-------i.e. goes out with Mr Shelley in front. However! Before leaving the steps, Mr Oswald has the presence of mind to do one simple thing: he puts his unfinished coke down, safely over by the inside west wall of the entrance.

3. Several minutes later, and Mr Oswald------------who has meantime re-entered the building with Mr Shelley by the west door and spent some time inside----------returns to the front door. An officer stops him and asks him where he's going. Mr Oswald points down the steps and says, "I left my coke just down there. I left it there when the shooting happened. I want to get it." Mr Truly vouches for Mr Oswald and the officer agrees to let him pass: "OK, but stay in the vicinity."

4. Mr Oswald does NOT (for whatever reason) stay in the vicinity. It is THIS fact that will later strike Mr Truly as odd-------and make him report Mr Oswald's absence to Captain Fritz.

**

BTW!

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xBDS9cv/Martin-Film-Clip-With-Lovelady.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far. Just (as I am suggesting) like Mr Oswald.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 14, 2022, 12:24:02 AM

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xBDS9cv/Martin-Film-Clip-With-Lovelady.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far.

Another way of putting this last sentence would be:

Mr Williams must have been allowed to step outside on strict condition that he not leave the building----------------i.e. that he stay on the steps.

What if Mr Oswald was granted the same permission?

All we would then need do is change one misheard word in Mr Holmes' recollection to relieve the illogicality in the following:

"And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside outside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door" (Postal Inspector Holmes, WC Testimony)

Mr Oswald is told he may step ASIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = ILLOGICAL

Mr Oswald is told he may step OUTSIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = LOGICAL
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 03:28:14 AM
Still within the scenario of this present thread

Let us recall what Chief Jesse Curry was telling press within hours of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkz2n14/Oswald-entrance-Curry-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Oswald rushed out--------just as an officer was rushing in

That verb-----------------'rushed'------------------will also be used by our friend Mr Harry D. Holmes in recalling Mr Oswald's account in custody:

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."


Mr Holmes is actually recalling Mr Oswald's description of the same event described by Chief Curry: his rushing DOWN THE FRONT STEPS immediately after the shots.

Cf this from Mr Holmes' same WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time.


Well, indeed so: Mr Oswald was still UP on those front steps, and hence still UP in the building, when the commotion broke out; he rushed DOWN those steps in order to go OUT and see what the heck was happening in the street.

**

Now!

How do we square this with Mr Holmes' memory of Mr Oswald relating this RUSHING DOWN as having been interrupted by a cop at the door?

Easy!

Mr Holmes is compressing events severely not because Mr Oswald did so but because all Mr Holmes had to go on was Mr Oswald's responses to time-hopping questions put by Captain Fritz.

It went something like this:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
(============> AROUND NOON)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor.
(============> A FEW MINUTES BEFORE MOTORCADE)
FRITZ: And you say you rushed down the steps after hearing the commotion?
LHO: Yes. I've told you all this twenty times already.
(============> TIME OF SHOOTING)
FRITZ: I know, son. We just want to get everything totally straight. And an officer stopped you?
LHO: Yes. In the vestibule. I had just come up to the front door to get the coke I'd left out on the steps when (etc.)
(============> CA. 10 MINS POST-SHOOTING)


Mr Holmes is, understandably, giving us a somewhat garbled version of what Mr Oswald actually said. But he is still giving us crucial information suppressed in the official interrogation reports of Capt. Fritz, Agents Bookhout & Hosty, et al.

**

Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning.

The all-important core claim remained:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 08:53:38 AM
So!

Mr Oswald made TWO exits from the building:

1. EXIT ONE: when he dashed off the steps in response to hearing shots and to seeing Mr Shelley dash off the steps

2. EXIT TWO: when he was allowed outside by the officer at the door (having been vouched for by Mr Truly) several minutes post-assassination.

It is thanks to Mr Shelley's partial truth-telling that we can explain how two different exits by Mr Oswald were possible: between EXIT ONE and EXIT TWO the two of them re-entered the building by the west door. (Mr Lovelady, meanwhile, simply stayed on the front steps.) And thanks to TSBD Vice President Ochus Campbell we know that Mr Oswald was seen in a small storage room on the first floor during the time interval between his two exits from the building.

Both Chief Curry and Postal Inspector Holmes SHARE an understandable error: hearing of these two exits--------------a dash + a less dramatic exit involving a cop--------------but not understanding the context, they conflate them into ONE exit.

And the 'investigating' authorities came up with a disgusting lie: they KNOWINGLY conflated Mr Oswald's two exits, as well as his sighting in the first floor storage room, into ONE ficitious incident: a lunchroom encounter. They did this because, if they were to sell him as the sixth-floor gunmen, they HAD to place Mr Oswald well inside the building shortly after the shooting.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 09:20:50 AM
Indeed so, Mr Beck! From every conceivable angle, the basic facts--------known to the 'investigating' authorities within hours of the assassination--------of Mr Oswald's comings and goings in and near the Depository were a complete disaster to the case that was 'building' against the USSR-defector for the shooting of Pres. Kennedy.

As for the bus, what happened seems fairly straightforward. Mr McWatters confused Mr Oswald with this strikingly similar-looking fellow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/85HhWZ8F/Roy-Milton-Jones.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9F9Zkds)

Mr Roy Milton Jones

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 16, 2022, 11:50:58 AM
But there is one more shock in store for the poor man.

In November 1976, he is interviewed for the HSCA. All is going well until near the end of the interview, when Mr Robert Groden hits him with the Martin film, which shows Mr Lovelady out on the steps plenty minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2qjHQYN/Lovelady-in-Martin.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting.

Nobody but Mr Lovelady realises it, but this is WAY more dangerous than all the crazy hooplah over Doorwayman in Altgens.

In January 1979, Mr Lovelady dies aged 41 of a heart attack.

"Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting."

Vickie Adams states she encountered Lovelady and Shelley, approximately 5 minutes after the assassination, near the elevator on the first floor.

Mr. Belin.
When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. Belin.
Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That's correct.
Mr. Belin.
It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on July 16, 2022, 01:50:47 PM
Indeed so, Mr Beck! From every conceivable angle, the basic facts--------known to the 'investigating' authorities within hours of the assassination--------of Mr Oswald's comings and goings in and near the Depository were a complete disaster to the case that was 'building' against the USSR-defector for the shooting of Pres. Kennedy.

As for the bus, what happened seems fairly straightforward. Mr McWatters confused Mr Oswald with this strikingly similar-looking fellow:

(https://i.postimg.cc/85HhWZ8F/Roy-Milton-Jones.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9F9Zkds)

Mr Roy Milton Jones

 Thumb1:

What year was this photo taken?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 16, 2022, 03:35:19 PM
Still within the scenario of this present thread

Let us recall what Chief Jesse Curry was telling press within hours of the shooting:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkz2n14/Oswald-entrance-Curry-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Oswald rushed out

That verb-----------------'rushed'------------------will also be used by our friend Mr Harry D. Holmes in recalling Mr Oswald's account in custody:

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."


Mr Holmes is actually recalling Mr Oswald's description of the same event described by Chief Curry: his rushing DOWN THE FRONT STEPS immediately after the shots.

Cf this from Mr Holmes' same WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time.


Well, indeed so: Mr Oswald was still UP on those front steps, and hence still UP in the building, when the commotion broke out; he rushed DOWN those steps in order to go OUT and see what the heck was happening in the street.

**

Now!

How do we square this with Mr Holmes' memory of Mr Oswald relating this RUSHING DOWN as having been interrupted by a cop at the door?

Easy!

Mr Holmes is compressing events severely not because Mr Oswald did so but because all Mr Holmes had to go on was Mr Oswald's responses to time-hopping questions put by Captain Fritz.

It went something like this:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
(============> AROUND NOON)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor.
(============> A FEW MINUTES BEFORE MOTORCADE)
FRITZ: And you say you rushed down the steps after hearing the commotion?
LHO: Yes. I've told you all this twenty times already.
(============> TIME OF SHOOTING)
FRITZ: I know, son. We just want to get everything totally straight. And an officer stopped you?
LHO: Yes. In the vestibule. I had just come up to the front door to get the coke I'd left out on the steps when (etc.)
(============> CA. 10 MINS POST-SHOOTING)


Mr Holmes is, understandably, giving us a somewhat garbled version of what Mr Oswald actually said. But he is still giving us crucial information suppressed in the official interrogation reports of Capt. Fritz, Agents Bookhout & Hosty, et al.

**

Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning.

The all-important core claim remained:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Holmes's statement is radically different. Holmes's statement has LHO going downstairs to see what the commotion was about and then encountering Baker and Truly. The Hosty note has him going up to the coke machine and then LHO went outside to view the parade but with no mention of a lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 06:32:38 PM
"Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting."

Vickie Adams states she encountered Lovelady and Shelley, approximately 5 minutes after the assassination, near the elevator on the first floor.

Oh, but as you well know, Ms Adams insisted to Mr Barry Ernest that she told the WC no such thing. She was perplexed and outraged by what was in her officially published WC testimony:

"And what was all that business about her seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor? Where had that come from? She had seen a black guy standing there, yes, that was true. She remembered asking him if the president had been shot. He was the one who never responded.
But Shelley and Lovelady? No, they were not there. She was sure of that. Why then did they write that she had seen them when she hadn’t?
"

And Ms Sandra Styles backed her up: no Messrs Shelley & Lovelady on the first floor.

Ms Adams was tricked into making corrections to a transcript that was then switched out to swap her references to the black man for phoney references to Messrs Lovelady & Shelley. All this required was to retype-with-some-changes a handful of pages, leave the rest alone, and add one teeny tiny word in imitation of Ms Adams' handwriting for good measure:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DySgSMg3/adams-wc1-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPkZcK9S)(https://i.postimg.cc/JzwbG40j/adams-wc2-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXg8z3xv)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvryVr6f/adams-wc3-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXpKdNsR)(https://i.postimg.cc/bJHY8Pr0/adams-wc4-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXjbqfvr)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yY93nck/adams-wc5-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSjJCyL3)

Proof that the reason why Ms Adams was asked to make corrections-------despite her having waived her right to do so--------had zilch to do with conscientious record-keeping and everything to do with manipulating her into putting her handwriting on unmanipulated pages of a manipulated document is afforded by the fact that her published testimony contained none of her corrections!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 06:37:09 PM
What year was this photo taken?

I'm not sure, Mr Plant----------the highschool yearbook image was uncovered by Mr Ed Ledoux.

Given that Mr Jones was but 17 at the time of the assassination, the photo is likely from 1963 or close to it.

The resemblance to Mr Oswald is uncanny. Indeed, first time I saw the image I thought it was of a young Mr Oswald!

Mr Billy Lovelady & Mr Roy Milton Jones: two innocent men whose chance resemblance to Mr Oswald was shamelessly instrumentalized by the 'investigating' authorities in their desperation to nail him as guilty.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 16, 2022, 06:53:30 PM
Holmes's statement is radically different. Holmes's statement has LHO going downstairs to see what the commotion was about and then encountering Baker and Truly. The Hosty note has him going up to the coke machine and then LHO went outside to view the parade but with no mention of a lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly.

Wow, I hadn't realized the front entrance on the first floor was where the second-floor lunchroom was located. Great work, Detective Nessan!  Thumb1:

Not just that! You have masterfully brought out how that final interrogation must have gone down:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor. Which that day had been moved down to the front entrance in honor of the President's visit. But that was right after I'd raced down the back stairs from six after hearing the commotion out on the street below. I raced down because I wanted to see what the commotion was all about, but mainly because I was real thirsty.
FRITZ: Hang on, are you now saying you didn't go outside to watch the P. Parade but were actually on six at the time of the shooting?
LHO: Damn, ya got me. I completely forgot all the stuff I told you before.
FRITZ: And what did you think had caused the commotion out on the street?
LHO: ....
FRITZ: Did you think it might have been the shots you'd just fired at Mr Kennedy?
LHO (sinking head): Aw hell, you're good.


Captain Fritz et al must have declined afterwards to make any mention of this dramatic last-minute confession by Mr Oswald because they were so cut up about his death and didn't want to make things any harder on the poor man's family.

  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 17, 2022, 03:18:44 PM
Oh, but as you well know, Ms Adams insisted to Mr Barry Ernest that she told the WC no such thing. She was perplexed and outraged by what was in her officially published WC testimony:

"And what was all that business about her seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor? Where had that come from? She had seen a black guy standing there, yes, that was true. She remembered asking him if the president had been shot. He was the one who never responded.
But Shelley and Lovelady? No, they were not there. She was sure of that. Why then did they write that she had seen them when she hadn’t?
"

And Ms Sandra Styles backed her up: no Messrs Shelley & Lovelady on the first floor.

Ms Adams was tricked into making corrections to a transcript that was then switched out to swap her references to the black man for phoney references to Messrs Lovelady & Shelley. All this required was to retype-with-some-changes a handful of pages, leave the rest alone, and add one teeny tiny word in imitation of Ms Adams' handwriting for good measure:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DySgSMg3/adams-wc1-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPkZcK9S)(https://i.postimg.cc/JzwbG40j/adams-wc2-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXg8z3xv)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvryVr6f/adams-wc3-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXpKdNsR)(https://i.postimg.cc/bJHY8Pr0/adams-wc4-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXjbqfvr)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yY93nck/adams-wc5-final.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSjJCyL3)

Proof that the reason why Ms Adams was asked to make corrections-------despite her having waived her right to do so--------had zilch to do with conscientious record-keeping and everything to do with manipulating her into putting her handwriting on unmanipulated pages of a manipulated document is afforded by the fact that her published testimony contained none of her corrections!

 Thumb1:

The "there" on the first page is Adams. The rest is make believe.

Adam's statement kind of ends this whole fantasy storyline you are weaving. Why the made-up narrative?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 17, 2022, 03:22:42 PM
Wow, I hadn't realized the front entrance on the first floor was where the second-floor lunchroom was located. Great work, Detective Nessan!  Thumb1:

Not just that! You have masterfully brought out how that final interrogation must have gone down:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor. Which that day had been moved down to the front entrance in honor of the President's visit. But that was right after I'd raced down the back stairs from six after hearing the commotion out on the street below. I raced down because I wanted to see what the commotion was all about, but mainly because I was real thirsty.
FRITZ: Hang on, are you now saying you didn't go outside to watch the P. Parade but were actually on six at the time of the shooting?
LHO: Damn, ya got me. I completely forgot all the stuff I told you before.
FRITZ: And what did you think had caused the commotion out on the street?
LHO: ....
FRITZ: Did you think it might have been the shots you'd just fired at Mr Kennedy?
LHO (sinking head): Aw hell, you're good.


Captain Fritz et al must have declined afterwards to make any mention of this dramatic last-minute confession by Mr Oswald because they were so cut up about his death and didn't want to make things any harder on the poor man's family.

  Thumb1:

When did the coke machine on the second floor get moved to the first floor? Just for this fantasy storyline? 



It looks like there is a double set of doors leading from the 2nd floor stairs to the lunchroom. There is a little triangular shaped space between the doors. It was through those windows that Baker caught a glimpse of him and noticed him walking in the lunchroom. Apparently LHO thought the little space was called a vestibule

.Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

He states that LHO encountered the policeman while he was standing by the coke machine. There is not a coke machine on the first floor. The coke machine is on the second floor.

LHO did incriminate himself on Sunday. That is the point. He never told the same story twice.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 17, 2022, 03:52:17 PM
The "there" on the first page is Adams.

I see------your entire fantasy timeline comes down to that one word's having been actually written by Ms Adams. Because other than that you've got nothing.

So! Prove it was actually written by Ms Adams

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 17, 2022, 03:57:36 PM
When did the coke machine on the second floor get moved to the first floor? Just for this fantasy storyline? 



It looks like there is a double set of doors leading from the 2nd floor stairs to the lunchroom. There is a little triangular shaped space between the doors. It was through those windows that Baker caught a glimpse of him and noticed him walking in the lunchroom. Apparently LHO thought the little space was called a vestibule

So--------------for your reading of Mr Holmes' recollection of Mr Oswald's words to be correct, Mr Oswald must have thought that, in standing by the coke machine in the second-floor lunchroom, he was standing in a 'vestibule' down to which he had rushed in order to see what all the commotion was about.

This really the best you can do, Mr Nessan?

Quote
.Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

He states that LHO encountered the policeman while he was standing by the coke machine. There is not a coke machine on the first floor. The coke machine is on the second floor.

LHO did incriminate himself on Sunday. That is the point. He never told the same story twice.

~Grin~

As usual, in your zeal to defend your favorite bedtime story, you cherry-pick away to your heart's content:

MR HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 01:59:13 AM
Well!

Mr Oswald told a clear and consistent story in custody, and the 'investigating' authorities privy to what he said were able to quickly establish that he was telling the truth. But they had a clear brief: nail the assassination on this guy and this guy alone.

One of the parties privy to Mr Oswald's alibi was, of course, Captain Will Fritz. Let's look at this interesting exchange during his WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened


Captain Fritz has worded this vaguely enough to avoid telling an outright lie---------he achieves this by carefully leaving out the WHERE (front steps)

, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that


Captain Fritz is noticeably flustered here. He's trying hard not to tell a direct lie about this matter

they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

'our investigation shows'?? Why did it take an investigation to show something different to what Captain Fritz was told on site? And more to the point: Why did it take an investigation to show what Mr Oswald readily confirmed in his first interrogation?

Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.


Captain Fritz is carefully avoiding naming the WHERE again, in order to SEEM to say but not ACTUALLY say that Mr Oswald confirmed a second-floor lunchroom encounter with an officer

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.


Again note Captain Fritz's refusal to commit to a straight yes as to whether Mr Oswald told him 'he was up there to get a Coca-Cola'; he merely confirms that Mr Oswald 'said he had a Coca-Cola'. Yet again, he is carefully leaving out the WHERE ('UP there'). Why? In order to give the erroneous impression that Mr Oswald here meant the second-floor lunchroom rather than the first-floor domino room. (Mr Oswald told him he ate some of his lunch in the domino room before bringing the remainder outside to watch the P. Parade.)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 02:10:11 AM
And then! Later in his WC testimony, Captain Fritz is given a direct WHERE? question.

Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?

Note how Mr Ball is here limiting the question to 'what floor?'-----------he is avoiding putting the all-important, no-brainer question, 'Did he tell you where exactly he was?'

Now let's see how Captain Fritz handles Mr Ball's question:

Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor.


His answer falls curiously short of the declarative. Think about that. On the single most important response given by the murder suspect to the single most important question he was asked, in the biggest homicide case in US history, the lead interrogator cannot even offer a categorical statement!

Now let's read that exchange again, continuing on with the follow-up:

Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor.
Mr. BALL. Look at 136B.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.
Mr. BALL. The second paragraph down, 136B.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. He said he usually worked on the first floor. I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.


 :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 02:17:58 AM
But!

Captain Fritz's curious vagueness and lack of surefootedness about WHERE EXACTLY Mr Oswald said he was at the time of the shooing is no isolated thing. In fact-------------quite bizarrely------------not a SINGLE one of the official interrogation reports gives ANY detail of WHERE Mr Oswald actually said he was at the time of the assassination!

In the joint interrogation report of Agents Bookhout & Hosty, we are told that Mr Oswald said he was "on the first floor" when Pres. Kennedy passed the building. But where on the damn first floor? Sorry, not important enough to merit a mention.

In the solo interrogation report of Agent Bookhout, we are told NOT A THING about where Mr Oswald said he was at that time. The account starts with "At the time of the search of the Depository building..."


And on. And on.

Why the reticence, guys?

Could it have anything to do with the simple and truthful claim made on Day One by Mr Oswald that was duly written up in plain language in Agent Hosty's draft report but BURIED?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Perish the thought!
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 02:31:29 AM
WARREN GULLIBLE: "But why didn't your evil conspirators in the investigation just claim that Oswald admitted he was on an upper floor at the time of the shooting? I mean, they could say what they liked, right? I mean, the interrogations weren't taped, right? I mean, they were evil, right?"

LOGICAL THINKER: "Simple. They knew that he had a doorway alibi, and that this alibi could conceivably come to light at some point in the future."

WARREN GULLIBLE: "But muh Buglio--"

LOGICAL THINKER: "Some citizen might come forward at any time with a clear Polaroid showing Oswald in the doorway, or an amateur home movie. And witnesses might start breaking."

WARREN GULLIBLE: "But muh 53 reas--"

LOGICAL THINKER: "These 'investigators' knew how vulnerable and ridiculous the official story was, so they fudged on Oswald's whereabouts claim in classic Cover-Your-A** style. They didn't want to lay themselves open to the risk of being exposed for the rank liars they were."

WARREN GULLIBLE: "But muh ballist--"

LOGICAL THINKER: "Same thinking went into the choice of second-floor lunchroom for the fictitious Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter."

WARREN GULLIBLE: "But muh--"

LOGICAL THINKER: "It had to be somewhere even an exonerated Oswald could physically have gone up to immediately after the shooting he had just heard from the front steps."
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 18, 2022, 05:23:35 AM
I see------your entire fantasy timeline comes down to that one word's having been actually written by Ms Adams. Because other than that you've got nothing.

So! Prove it was actually written by Ms Adams

 Thumb1:

No it doesn't. What it looks like is you are trying to distance yourself from this whole Lovelady storyline. Good choice.

Vickie Adam's WC statement pretty much rained on your parade. What Adam's did do was confirmed that it was Shelley and Lovelady who came back inside the TSBD. If you actually have real proof of anything do not hesitate to share it.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 18, 2022, 05:31:45 AM
So--------------for your reading of Mr Holmes' recollection of Mr Oswald's words to be correct, Mr Oswald must have thought that, in standing by the coke machine in the second-floor lunchroom, he was standing in a 'vestibule' down to which he had rushed in order to see what all the commotion was about.

This really the best you can do, Mr Nessan?

~Grin~

As usual, in your zeal to defend your favorite bedtime story, you cherry-pick away to your heart's content:

MR HOLMES. ... But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke.

 Thumb1:

LHO did not tell the same story twice.

You have not shown where he has told the same story twice. In fact you have not shown anything at all but a very disjointed opinion and an odd narrative.

Remember, LHO heard the commotion and then came downstairs where Baker and Truly encountered him by the coke machine in the second floor lunchroom. Again, there is not a coke machine by the first floor entrance.

Where is the vestibule? I will let Truly and Holmes explain it to you.

The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, 1964.
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

AFFIDAVIT

STATE OF TEXAS,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say:
1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building Dallas, Texas.
2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door


Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently, there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Now LHO's big lie.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

The coke machine is on the second floor. LHO was deliberately misleading about the location of the encounter. LHO told Fritz he went to the second floor to get a coke.

How is this even close to what he told Capt Fritz. Where is this big correlation between the two as you have stated?

------------------------------------

As far as his whereabouts, LHO was deliberately vague

Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 18, 2022, 07:22:49 AM
Vickie Adam's WC statement pretty much rained on your parade. What Adam's did do was confirmed that it was Shelley and Lovelady who came back inside the TSBD. If you actually have real proof of anything do not hesitate to share it.

“Vickie Adams’ WC statement” was not Vickie Adams’ WC statement. According to Vickie Adams.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 18, 2022, 07:28:03 AM
LHO did not tell the same story twice.

You don’t know what stories Oswald told.

Quote
As far as his whereabouts, LHO was deliberately vague

No, Harry Holmes’ memory is vague.

“But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke.”

Please.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 10:01:55 PM
No it doesn't. What it looks like is you are trying to distance yourself from this whole Lovelady storyline. Good choice.

What it looks like is your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Debating you is like debating a beta-version bot.

Quote
Vickie Adam's WC statement pretty much rained on your parade. What Adam's did do was confirmed that it was Shelley and Lovelady who came back inside the TSBD. If you actually have real proof of anything do not hesitate to share it.

If you can prove that Ms Adams really made that statement, I'll change my mind. Perhaps you can show us the official stenographer's tape? Oh, I forgot-----------the stenographer's tape for Ms Adams' testimony is missing from the archives. What a surprise!

The whole point of getting Ms Adams to make 'corrections' was not to correct the written record but to legitimize a con job.

I'll let Mr Barry Ernest explain:

"Whereas the 1964 version [of the Adams testimony transcription] was declassified on November 21, 1967, this differing transcription shows an additional declassification stamp, bearing a more recent date of February 9, 2011. Coincidentally, that is two months after existence of the Martha Joe Stroud letter was disclosed for the first time in the self-published edition of The Girl on the Stairs.
"To date, no one has been able to explain why this same document needed declassifying twice, the second official release occurring forty-four years later.
"None of the corrections made by Miss Adams in Dallas appeared in her official Warren Commission testimony. This is strange, since the Commission had sufficient time to make those changes. It means the unsigned, uncorrected version of her testimony was indeed what was sent to the GPO."


And there we have it. The doctored document was prepared for one reason and one reason only: to be held in reserve for discrediting Ms Adams should she--------or someone looking too deeply into her story---------start making waves. Once that happened in 2011, the 'corrections' document was magically re-declassified.

And now look at you, Mr Nessan-------you've fallen for it hook, line & sinker!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 10:09:30 PM
LHO did not tell the same story twice.

You have not shown where he has told the same story twice. In fact you have not shown anything at all but a very disjointed opinion and an odd narrative.

Remember, LHO heard the commotion and then came downstairs where Baker and Truly encountered him by the coke machine in the second floor lunchroom. Again, there is not a coke machine by the first floor entrance.

And then a man ran into the second-floor lunchroom flashing credentials and asking for a telephone and Mr Oswald pointed him to the nearest phone and saw him go to it. After which Mr Oswald went out the door of the second-floor lunchroom and found himself out on the street.

 :D

Quote
Where is the vestibule? I will let Truly and Holmes explain it to you.

Mr Holmes has already explained it to us:

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

As for Mr Truly, he's just being the same cooperative liar who played along with the lunchroom hoax in the first place

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 18, 2022, 10:14:56 PM
“Vickie Adams’ WC statement” was not Vickie Adams’ WC statement. According to Vickie Adams.

This is the pitiful extent of Mr Nessan's liferaft:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 19, 2022, 09:45:17 AM
This is billiant reseach Alan but one thing bothers me. If Oswald was the designated fall guy with meticulous planning to set him up, how could he possible be left to roam the building and street at the time of the shooting?
Seems to me that in reality he had been ordered by the manipulators to remain out of sight (in the Domino room) at that time.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 01:49:41 PM
This is billiant reseach Alan but one thing bothers me. If Oswald was the designated fall guy with meticulous planning to set him up, how could he possible be left to roam the building and street at the time of the shooting?
Seems to me that in reality he had been ordered by the manipulators to remain out of sight (in the Domino room) at that time.

Thank you, Mr Hawthorn!  Thumb1:

The answer to your question is pretty simple: Mr Oswald was NOT being set up in advance as the actual sixth-floor shooter, still less as a Lone Nut assassin. That ludicrous narrative only got created after the event (for political reasons) by the 'investigating' authorities
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 19, 2022, 02:23:54 PM
No it doesn't. What it looks like is you are trying to distance yourself from this whole Lovelady storyline. Good choice.

Vickie Adam's WC statement pretty much rained on your parade. What Adam's did do was confirmed that it was Shelley and Lovelady who came back inside the TSBD. If you actually have real proof of anything do not hesitate to share it.

Lovelady's admission that he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination ends this debate.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 19, 2022, 03:03:49 PM
What it looks like is your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Debating you is like debating a beta-version bot.

If you can prove that Ms Adams really made that statement, I'll change my mind. Perhaps you can show us the official stenographer's tape? Oh, I forgot-----------the stenographer's tape for Ms Adams' testimony is missing from the archives. What a surprise!

The whole point of getting Ms Adams to make 'corrections' was not to correct the written record but to legitimize a con job.

I'll let Mr Barry Ernest explain:

"Whereas the 1964 version [of the Adams testimony transcription] was declassified on November 21, 1967, this differing transcription shows an additional declassification stamp, bearing a more recent date of February 9, 2011. Coincidentally, that is two months after existence of the Martha Joe Stroud letter was disclosed for the first time in the self-published edition of The Girl on the Stairs.
"To date, no one has been able to explain why this same document needed declassifying twice, the second official release occurring forty-four years later.
"None of the corrections made by Miss Adams in Dallas appeared in her official Warren Commission testimony. This is strange, since the Commission had sufficient time to make those changes. It means the unsigned, uncorrected version of her testimony was indeed what was sent to the GPO."


And there we have it. The doctored document was prepared for one reason and one reason only: to be held in reserve for discrediting Ms Adams should she--------or someone looking too deeply into her story---------start making waves. Once that happened in 2011, the 'corrections' document was magically re-declassified.

And now look at you, Mr Nessan-------you've fallen for it hook, line & sinker!  Thumb1:

The Stroud document is a joke, it is only valued by people desperate to believe it has any elevance at all.

Why would anything of any importance be declassified in 1967? The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated. The handwriting looks to be the only legitimate correction.

Where exactly in her testimony did they start fabricating her statement. Did they make this up too? They could not end the interview with her, because she was such a wealth of info.

Mr. Belin. That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be  relevant?

Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what.
Mr. Belin. That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles.
Mr. Belin. Is there anything else?
Miss ADAMS. That is all, I believe.

Finally she waives the right to sign the document. Vickie had the ability to change the wording and sign it, the same as everybody else.

Mr. BELIN. Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?
Miss ADAMS. I think I will let you use your own discretion.
Mr. BELIN. It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.
Miss ADAMS. That is all right.

Mr. Belin.
We want to thank you for your, cooperation. We know that it has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 19, 2022, 03:07:13 PM
This is the pitiful extent of Mr Nessan's liferaft:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This one little change in the transcript sure seems to bother you, and it should, it is the only thing that looks real your whole post. The rest looks like made-up tripe.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 19, 2022, 03:10:04 PM
And then a man ran into the second-floor lunchroom flashing credentials and asking for a telephone and Mr Oswald pointed him to the nearest phone and saw him go to it. After which Mr Oswald went out the door of the second-floor lunchroom and found himself out on the street.

 :D

Mr Holmes has already explained it to us:

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

As for Mr Truly, he's just being the same cooperative liar who played along with the lunchroom hoax in the first place

 Thumb1:

You are confusing Holme's recanting of LHO's words as being Holme's words.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 19, 2022, 03:15:49 PM
Thank you, Mr Hawthorn!  Thumb1:

The answer to your question is pretty simple: Mr Oswald was NOT being set up in advance as the actual sixth-floor shooter, still less as a Lone Nut assassin. That ludicrous narrative only got created after the event (for political reasons) by the 'investigating' authorities

It is so obvious that Lovelady is part of the conspiracy.  Lovelady is so very well coached to identify Vickie Adams. What an unbelievable conspiracy was taking place. Fortunately for America we have someone to ferret the conspirators out. Thank you for all you do. If you find any more documents like the Top Secret Adam's WC fake testimony, please post it.

Mr. Ball. Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. Ball. Who is Vickie?
Mr. Lovelady. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. Ball. What is her full name?
Mr. Lovelady. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Ball. Vickie Adams?
Mr. Lovelady. I believe so.
Mr. Ball. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. Lovelady. I couldn't swear.
Mr. Ball. Where was the girl?
Mr. Lovelady. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 03:46:42 PM
The Stroud document is a joke, it is only valued by people desperate to believe it has any elevance at all.

Why would anything of any importance be declassified in 1967? The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated. The handwriting looks to be the only legitimate correction.

Wait-----------before I laugh out loud, Mr Nessan, I want to make 100% sure I'm laughing at the right thing.

Are you suggesting that the Stroud letter is completely fabricated?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 03:48:14 PM
This one little change in the transcript sure seems to bother you, and it should, it is the only thing that looks real your whole post. The rest looks like made-up tripe.

You're going to need a whole lot more than that one little easily-writable word to convict Ms Adams of being a liar
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 03:51:54 PM
You are confusing Holme's recanting of LHO's words as being Holme's words.

No----------you are confusing the words you imagine Mr Holmes spoke as being the words Mr Holmes actually spoke.

Here, to help you again, are the latter:

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

P.S. You are also confusing 'Holme' with 'Holmes' and 'recant' with 'recount'  Thumb1:

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 03:53:44 PM
It is so obvious that Lovelady is part of the conspiracy.  Lovelady is so very well coached to identify Vickie Adams. What an unbelievable conspiracy was taking place. Fortunately for America we have someone to ferret the conspirators out. Thank you for all you do. If you find any more documents like the Top Secret Adam's WC fake testimony, please post it.

Mr. Ball. Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. Ball. Who is Vickie?
Mr. Lovelady. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. Ball. What is her full name?
Mr. Lovelady. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Ball. Vickie Adams?
Mr. Lovelady. I believe so.
Mr. Ball. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. Lovelady. I couldn't swear.
Mr. Ball. Where was the girl?
Mr. Lovelady. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Thank you for reminding us that neither Mr Lovelady nor Mr Shelley were willing to swear to seeing Ms Adams or Ms Styles on the first floor!  Thumb1:

Ms Styles has repeatedly backed up Ms Adams on this issue: no Shelley/Lovelady

So literally all you have by way of evidence for your allegation that Ms Adams was a shameless liar is this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Good luck!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 19, 2022, 03:55:36 PM
Why did Lovelady say “I wouldn’t swear to it it’s Vickie” when Ball didn’t ask him anything about Vickie?

Prior coaching off the record?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 03:58:18 PM
Lovelady's admission that he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination ends this debate.

Indeed so! The question then becomes:

If Mr Lovelady didn't in fact re-enter the building by the west door with Mr Shelley a few minutes after the shooting, why in the heck are he and Mr Shelley pretending he did?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 19, 2022, 04:01:01 PM
Why did Lovelady say “I wouldn’t swear to it it’s Vickie” when Ball didn’t ask him anything about Vickie?

Prior coaching off the record?

Yep! And look at how Mr Ball plays dumb:

Mr. Ball. Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. Ball. Who is Vickie?
Mr. Lovelady. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. Ball. What is her full name?
Mr. Lovelady. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Ball. Vickie Adams?
Mr. Lovelady. I believe so.


 :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 19, 2022, 11:49:50 PM
What a charade.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 12:10:31 AM
Thank you, Mr Hawthorn!  Thumb1:

The answer to your question is pretty simple: Mr Oswald was NOT being set up in advance as the actual sixth-floor shooter, still less as a Lone Nut assassin. That ludicrous narrative only got created after the event (for political reasons) by the 'investigating' authorities

Then how to explain the non-fired Mauser found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? The conspirators thought they could tie that to their random patsy?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 12:54:54 AM
Then how to explain the non-fired Mauser found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? The conspirators thought they could tie that to their random patsy?

Those behind the assassination may not have had any designated gunman-patsy
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on July 20, 2022, 01:00:41 AM
I'm not sure, Mr Plant----------the highschool yearbook image was uncovered by Mr Ed Ledoux.

Given that Mr Jones was but 17 at the time of the assassination, the photo is likely from 1963 or close to it.

The resemblance to Mr Oswald is uncanny. Indeed, first time I saw the image I thought it was of a young Mr Oswald!

Mr Billy Lovelady & Mr Roy Milton Jones: two innocent men whose chance resemblance to Mr Oswald was shamelessly instrumentalized by the 'investigating' authorities in their desperation to nail him as guilty.

I was curious if this was actually taken in 1963 because if it was earlier then Jones would have looked older in 1963.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 01:14:39 AM
Then how to explain the non-fired Mauser found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? The conspirators thought they could tie that to their random patsy?

There was no Mauser.
Tom Alyea filmed the rifle being removed from it's hiding place and it wasn't a Mauser.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 01:39:46 AM
Yep! And look at how Mr Ball plays dumb:

Mr. Ball. Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. Lovelady. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. Ball. Who is Vickie?
Mr. Lovelady. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. Ball. What is her full name?
Mr. Lovelady. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Ball. Vickie Adams?
Mr. Lovelady. I believe so.


 :D
This piece of testimony is like a sick joke. Ball literally answers the question for the witness.
According to Barry Ernest, Adams was insistent that the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley at the bottom of the stairs was an addition to her WC testimony. There are reasons to believe this was the case -

Lovelady admits he doesn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes.

Neither Shelley nor Lovelady acknowledge this supposed encounter.

Adams own testimony makes it clear she was at the bottom of the stairs long before Shelley or Lovelady could've been there:

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.


"No longer than a minute at most" - even if Shelley and Lovelady ran at full speed during their accounts of their movements after the assassination, they wouldn't have made the bottom of the stairs in time.
Adams is insistent that both she and Styles left the fourth floor within seconds and were running. Garner states she heard the girls running down the stairs immediately after the shooting.
To imagine Adams and Styles waited for "20-25 minutes" then rushed down the stairs at full speed, got out of the guarded rear door and then in through the guarded front door is a non-starter.

It is clear Adams' testimony was altered - this should be the focus of attention as it holds the WC up for the whitewash it was.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 09:16:31 AM
There was no Mauser.
Tom Alyea filmed the rifle being removed from it's hiding place and it wasn't a Mauser.

OK, whatever it was, it was planted there and it hadn't been fired. If it wasn't planted in order to link it to Oswald then what was going on?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 11:06:24 AM
OK, whatever it was, it was planted there and it hadn't been fired. If it wasn't planted in order to link it to Oswald then what was going on?

It was a Mannlicher Carcano and if it was planted there, it was planted to incriminate Oswald. It is the most incriminating piece of evidence there is.

What makes you believe it hadn't been fired?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 12:36:44 PM
It was a Mannlicher Carcano and if it was planted there, it was planted to incriminate Oswald. It is the most incriminating piece of evidence there is.

If it was planted there to incriminate Oswald that would prove that the conspirators had already designated him as the patsy. That wouldn't fit the argument here about that being decided after the assassination.

What makes you believe it hadn't been fired?

All that about the inside of the barrel being rusty.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 01:38:33 PM
If it was planted there to incriminate Oswald that would prove that the conspirators had already designated him as the patsy. That wouldn't fit the argument here about that being decided after the assassination.

That is Alan's argument, no-one else's.
It's apparent from Oswald's reported behaviour before and after the assassination that he was involved in something for which he expected to be arrested (leaving a relatively large amount of cash behind as he had reportedly done before the Walker attempted assassination, leaving his weeding ring behind fits into this narrative as well).
If not the actual assassin, he was heavily involved with the events of that day. If the intention was to set Oswald up as the patsy all along, it is not a stretch to imagine he was under orders to stay out of sight around the time of the assassination.

The idea that it was decided, after the event, to set up Oswald without any pre-planning is seriously undermined by the Backyard Photos (which have been authenticated). They show Oswald holding a rifle indistinguishable from the rifle Tom Alyea filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

Quote
All that about the inside of the barrel being rusty.

I'm pretty sure the upshot of that discussion was that the barrel was not rusty but did show signs of corrosion (which isn't really the same thing).
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 20, 2022, 03:28:58 PM
Wait-----------before I laugh out loud, Mr Nessan, I want to make 100% sure I'm laughing at the right thing.

Are you suggesting that the Stroud letter is completely fabricated?

Everyone lying is a conspiracist phobia. Mistaken, the math doesn't work. I am sure she believed every word.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 20, 2022, 03:30:34 PM
You're going to need a whole lot more than that one little easily-writable word to convict Ms Adams of being a liar

No I don't. Plain to see.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 20, 2022, 03:34:27 PM
No----------you are confusing the words you imagine Mr Holmes spoke as being the words Mr Holmes actually spoke.

Here, to help you again, are the latter:

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

P.S. You are also confusing 'Holme' with 'Holmes' and 'recant' with 'recount'  Thumb1:

No, You are confusing Holme's recanting of LHO's words as being Holme's words.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 20, 2022, 03:43:39 PM
Thank you for reminding us that neither Mr Lovelady nor Mr Shelley were willing to swear to seeing Ms Adams or Ms Styles on the first floor!  Thumb1:

Ms Styles has repeatedly backed up Ms Adams on this issue: no Shelley/Lovelady

So literally all you have by way of evidence for your allegation that Ms Adams was a shameless liar is this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Good luck!  Thumb1:

Adam's saw them. Shelley and Lovelady were where they said they were.

Quite a double standard. LHO saw Jarman and Norman but Norman and Jarman did not see LHO but you don't have a problem with that statement. Isn't this the first part of:

A Ford: "Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning."


Are you ever going to reconcile the Holmes statement with Fritz's to prove your point?

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 20, 2022, 04:41:21 PM
The decision on who to incriminate could have been made after the fact. Anybody could have been “A Hidell”.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 20, 2022, 04:47:02 PM
The idea that it was decided, after the event, to set up Oswald without any pre-planning is seriously undermined by the Backyard Photos (which have been authenticated). They show Oswald holding a rifle indistinguishable from the rifle Tom Alyea filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

“Indistinguishable” is pretty meaningless when there’s nothing distinctive in the available images.

Besides, we can’t know for a fact that this Carcano rifle was involved in the assassination at all, much less who was in involved in getting it there.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 04:49:41 PM
If it was planted there to incriminate Oswald that would prove that the conspirators had already designated him as the patsy. That wouldn't fit the argument here about that being decided after the assassination.

That wasn't my argument, Mr Hawthorn. I'm arguing that Mr Oswald was not set up as sixth-floor gunman by those who planned the assassination. He may well have been set up as an accomplice. Heck, he may well have been an accomplice. We just don't know.

What I am very confident of is that he was telling the truth when he claimed to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade. It's the reason his claim was buried by the 'investigating' authorities!
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 04:51:23 PM
Everyone lying is a conspiracist phobia. Mistaken, the math doesn't work. I am sure she believed every word.

Kindly answer the question, Mr Nessan---------which document are you saying was "completely fabricated"?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 04:55:38 PM
The idea that it was decided, after the event, to set up Oswald without any pre-planning is seriously undermined by the Backyard Photos (which have been authenticated). They show Oswald holding a rifle indistinguishable from the rifle Tom Alyea filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

Exactly what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
Adam's saw them. Shelley and Lovelady were where they said they were.

Quite a double standard. LHO saw Jarman and Norman but Norman and Jarman did not see LHO but you don't have a problem with that statement.

Where's the double standard? Mr Oswald never claimed he exchanged words with Messrs Jarman & Norman

Quote
Isn't this the first part of:

A Ford: "Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning."

Are you ever going to reconcile the Holmes statement with Fritz's to prove your point?

As we have known since 2019, Captain Fritz suppressed Mr Oswald's all-important claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade. And he suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have been stopped at the front door by an officer. He lied through his teeth

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 04:58:18 PM
That is Alan's argument, no-one else's.

It is not even Alan's argument, Mr O'Meara!
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 05:05:43 PM
That wasn't my argument, Mr Hawthorn. I'm arguing that Mr Oswald was not set up as gunman by those who planned the assassination. He may well have been set up as an accomplice. Heck, he may well have been an accomplice. We just don't know.

What I am very confident of is that he was telling the truth when he claimed to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade. It's the reason his claim was buried by the 'investigating' authorities!

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes more sense. However, as Dan says, the backyard photos reveal a pre-planned set-up with Oswald's rifle in place on the 6th floor.
I can go with the notion of him keeping out of sight in the Domino room (as he had been instructed) then emerging during all the commotion and milling around a bit, but knowing that he had been set up, but I can't see him being "allowed" to be on the front steps before and during the shots. If he WAS out there, the conspirators sure were lucky that he wasn't identified by numerous people and even photographed (unless "Prayer Man" is him).
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 20, 2022, 08:36:05 PM
Ah, I see what you mean. Makes more sense. However, as Dan says, the backyard photos reveal a pre-planned set-up with Oswald's rifle in place on the 6th floor.
I can go with the notion of him keeping out of sight in the Domino room (as he had been instructed) then emerging during all the commotion and milling around a bit, but knowing that he had been set up, but I can't see him being "allowed" to be on the front steps before and during the shots. If he WAS out there, the conspirators sure were lucky that he wasn't identified by numerous people and even photographed (unless "Prayer Man" is him).

If he's not the sixth-floor gunman patsy and is seen/identified/photographed out on the steps at the time of the shooting, why does that pose a problem for the conspirators?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 20, 2022, 08:56:49 PM
If he's not the sixth-floor gunman patsy and is seen/identified/photographed out on the steps at the time of the shooting, why does that pose a problem for the conspirators?

If he wasn't being set up as the patsy then obviously, no problem with him being down there. The problem is, he was set up as the 6th floor patsy by the conspirators.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 21, 2022, 12:54:29 AM
If he wasn't being set up as the patsy then obviously, no problem with him being down there. The problem is, he was set up as the 6th floor patsy by the conspirators.

How do you know that?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 21, 2022, 01:50:46 AM
“Indistinguishable” is pretty meaningless when there’s nothing distinctive in the available images.

Besides, we can’t know for a fact that this Carcano rifle was involved in the assassination at all, much less who was in involved in getting it there.

It is an extraordinary coincidence that Oswald was photographed holding a Mannlicher Carcano and a Mannlicher Carcano was filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

It was lucky they decided to randomly frame Oswald.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 21, 2022, 08:15:14 AM
How do you know that?

This:

It is an extraordinary coincidence that Oswald was photographed holding a Mannlicher Carcano and a Mannlicher Carcano was filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

It was lucky they decided to randomly frame Oswald.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 21, 2022, 01:16:59 PM
It is an extraordinary coincidence that Oswald was photographed holding a Mannlicher Carcano and a Mannlicher Carcano was filmed being removed from it's hiding place on the 6th floor.

It was lucky they decided to randomly frame Oswald.

So by “indistinguishable”, you mean they both look like Mannlicher Carcanos to you in fuzzy, indistinct images.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 21, 2022, 01:56:14 PM
Where's the double standard? Mr Oswald never claimed he exchanged words with Messrs Jarman & Norman

As we have known since 2019, Captain Fritz suppressed Mr Oswald's all-important claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade. And he suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have been stopped at the front door by an officer. He lied through his teeth

 Thumb1:

How are you sure of that he did not. The whole basis of this thread is Fritz lied. Even this post is about Fritz lied. Back to the double standard?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 21, 2022, 01:58:32 PM
Kindly answer the question, Mr Nessan---------which document are you saying was "completely fabricated"?

 Thumb1:

If you can produce anything that legitimately backs up your claims that would be new. If you are so sure of the Stroud document by all means elaborate. Impeach Adams's WC Statement. How about elaborate on the similarities of Holmes and Fritz's LHO interviews and everyone in between.

This thread appears to be nothing more than mindless ramblings and discombobulated thoughts about Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady.




Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 21, 2022, 03:14:32 PM
This:

So maybe he's being set up not as sixth-floor gunman but as having owned & supplied rifle used.

Connection to Commie => Commie connection => boom!

If the conspirators wanted to frame him as the Lone Nut sixth-floor shooter, they went about it in a weirdly underwhelming way........

And if, as you believe, a Mauser was found on the sixth floor, how would this be part of a plot to frame Mr Oswald as the Lone Nut sixth-floor shooter?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 21, 2022, 03:20:38 PM
How are you sure of that he did not. The whole basis of this thread is Fritz lied. Even this post is about Fritz lied. Back to the double standard?

Oh but we know for a fact that Capt. Fritz---------and not just Captain Fritz----------lied about what Mr Oswald said. Or maybe you're going to suggest that this document is "completely fabricated" too?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 21, 2022, 03:21:55 PM
If you can produce anything that legitimately backs up your claims that would be new. If you are so sure of the Stroud document by all means elaborate.

So you are arguing that the Stroud document is "completely fabricated"? Yes?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2022, 01:22:17 AM
So by “indistinguishable”, you mean they both look like Mannlicher Carcanos to you in fuzzy, indistinct images.

(https://i.imgur.com/89XE9WC.png)

"fuzzy, indistinct images"  ;D

Are you sure there's not something wrong with your eyesight?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 22, 2022, 02:32:00 PM
Oh but we know for a fact that Capt. Fritz---------and not just Captain Fritz----------lied about what Mr Oswald said. Or maybe you're going to suggest that this document is "completely fabricated" too?

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

What is Fritz's big lie? These claims have a way of usually turning out to be nothing but a farce.

LHO told Holmes he came downstairs to the lunchroom encounter.

Are you out of hokey documents to post?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 22, 2022, 05:05:37 PM
So maybe he's being set up not as sixth-floor gunman but as having owned & supplied rifle used.
Yes, I can go with that. As I've always thought, the conspirators had their plan and the authorities had theirs (the depiction/use of Oswald as the gunman).
If Oswald supplied the rifle he'd ordered, he musn't have known that the shooting was programmed for November 22nd. He might even have lent the rifle to a friend/contact with no notion that it would be used as an assassination weapon.

And if, as you believe, a Mauser was found on the sixth floor, how would this be part of a plot to frame Mr Oswald as the Lone Nut sixth-floor shooter?

I'm remembering old threads saying that it was a Mauser that had been found initially (described as such by officers). Then there was the notion that the MC was substited before Tom Aylea arrived on the scene to film the extraction. I've been away from the forum for a few years, so all that might have been eliminated as a possibility.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 22, 2022, 06:22:35 PM
"fuzzy, indistinct images"  ;D

Are you sure there's not something wrong with your eyesight?

Exactly what about that screams “Carcano”?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 22, 2022, 06:24:35 PM
What is Fritz's big lie? These claims have a way of usually turning out to be nothing but a farce.

LHO told Holmes he came downstairs to the lunchroom encounter.

Are you out of hokey documents to post?

Oswald didn’t talk to Holmes. Are you out of hokey claims to post? Holmes couldn’t  even remember what the Coke was about.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 22, 2022, 06:55:10 PM
What is Fritz's big lie? These claims have a way of usually turning out to be nothing but a farce.

LHO told Holmes he came downstairs to the lunchroom encounter.

Are you out of hokey documents to post?

Are you arguing that the Stroud document is "completely fabricated"? Yes or no, Mr Nessan?

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qyTQxYx/Stroud.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB6n2hRs)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 23, 2022, 01:39:51 PM
So!

1. Mr Oswald breaks for lunch
2. He goes downstairs (washes up, etc.)
3. He goes to the 2nd floor lunchroom to buy a Coca-Cola from the machine
4. He returns to the 1st floor to eat lunch (noticing Messrs Norman & Jarman as they re-enter the building by the back door)
5. He goes outside to watch the P. Parade (having left it till the last minute as he dislikes small-talk with co-workers)
6. Within seconds of the shots ringing out, he dashes down and off the steps to go out and see what all the excitement is about-------in doing this, he is following Mr Bill Shelley, who has already dashed off the steps
7. The pair go west to the railroad yards and stand around for some time watching the action
8. The pair re-enter the Depository by the west door
9. Mr Oswald is spotted in a small storage room on the first floor
10. Mr Oswald is stopped by Officer Kaminski trying to leave the building: Mr Truly vouches for him, and he is told he may step outside but is not to leave the premises
11. A man flashing credentials comes running to the door and asking for a telephone: Mr Oswald directs him to the phone on the shipping-floor
12. Mr Oswald goes outside and, at some point thereafter, slips away

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 23, 2022, 02:34:47 PM
Are you arguing that the Stroud document is "completely fabricated"? Yes or no, Mr Nessan?

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qyTQxYx/Stroud.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB6n2hRs)

No, the Stroud document is real, pathetic, but real. The math doesn't work making the document a joke. Barry Ernest apparently is very proud of having discovered it, but because he has dubious reasoning skills, he does not realize it is nonsense.

Discussing the Stroud document is where your hero, Barry Ernest, hangs you out dry on Adam's WC testimony. Changing "It" to "there" would be her change. The rest of your post on Adams "top secret" WC changes is made up tripe.

Barry Ernest: 2011 

"The letter has since become known as "the Stroud document.
Its contents concerned the testimony of Victoria Adams and how,
on examination, Miss Adams had noticed several spelling and
grammatical errors that she felt needed correction.  None of those
corrections were made in the final version, however."
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 23, 2022, 03:36:38 PM
No, the Stroud document is real, pathetic, but real.

OK, we'll get to the Stroud document anon, but help me out here. Which document exactly were you referring to in Reply #78 (June 19) when you wrote------------------

"The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated"

-------------------?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 24, 2022, 02:12:01 PM
OK, we'll get to the Stroud document anon, but help me out here. Which document exactly were you referring to in Reply #78 (June 19) when you wrote------------------

"The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated"

-------------------?

 Thumb1:

Post 78 seems obvious.

Unable to support what you have been posting?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 24, 2022, 04:35:52 PM
Post 78 seems obvious.

Unable to support what you have been posting?

~Grin~

In Reply #78 you wrote:

"The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated"

I have been placing great importance on an array of documents in this thread, so I have to ask you again:

Which document, if not the Stroud letter, are you arguing has been "completely fabricated"?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 25, 2022, 03:11:00 PM
Well!

Ms Dorothy Garner's sighting of Mr Truly and the policeman coming up AFTER Ms Adams ran downstairs leaves Warren Gullibles (and CT Lunchroom Gullibles) only one explanation:

Mr Truly & Officer Baker didn't notice-----------and were not noticed by-----------Ms Adams & Ms Styles because the two men were over by the lunchroom with Mr Oswald when Ms Adams and Ms Styles crossed the second-floor landing.

Challenge to any Warren Gullible clinging on to the above (ear-plugs-dependent) scenario!:

Reconcile
a) Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's account to the WC of their post-assassination movements
with
b) Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's being on the first floor when Ms Adams & Ms Styles arrived on to it

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 26, 2022, 02:10:01 PM
~Grin~

In Reply #78 you wrote:

"The document you are placing so much importance on looks to be completely fabricated"

I have been placing great importance on an array of documents in this thread, so I have to ask you again:

Which document, if not the Stroud letter, are you arguing has been "completely fabricated"?

 Thumb1:

Even the dumbest of people can easily figure out post #78. It looks like the goal is to avoid explaining why you have decided to invent your own evidence. What this really is, is welcome to Alan Ford's fictional fantasy assassination. Courtesy of years being a star on the Deep Politics Forum.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2022, 03:50:40 PM
Even the dumbest of people can easily figure out post #78. It looks like the goal is to avoid explaining why you have decided to invent your own evidence.

~Grin~

Which document, if not the Stroud letter, are you arguing has been "completely fabricated"?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 26, 2022, 08:06:45 PM
~Grin~

Which document, if not the Stroud letter, are you arguing has been "completely fabricated"?

Smiling a lot can be interpreted as a sign of a simple mind.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 26, 2022, 08:52:04 PM
Smiling a lot can be interpreted as a sign of a simple mind.

Okay, Mr Nessan, you don't want to answer. I think I know why!  :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 26, 2022, 09:18:52 PM
I guess he’s talking about the declassified transcript of Adams’ testimony? Not sure why he won’t just answer the question.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Chris Davidson on July 27, 2022, 12:15:18 AM
(https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Large.png)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 02:29:42 AM
I guess he’s talking about the declassified transcript of Adams’ testimony? Not sure why he won’t just answer the question.

But Mr Nessan gives 100% credence to that document and has declared it beyond the bounds of possibility that the word "there" could have been handwritten in by anyone other than Ms Adams.

His strange refusal to specify which document he was 'accusing' of being "completely fabricated" suggests that he's now embarrassed at the fact that he was referring to----------------actually referring to!--------------my illustrative addition of blue text:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzwbG40j/adams-wc2-final.jpg)

It could have been worse---------he could have accused the green on this document of being fake!

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 02:44:52 AM
Well!

Ms Dorothy Garner's sighting of Mr Truly and the policeman coming up AFTER Ms Adams ran downstairs leaves Warren Gullibles (and CT Lunchroom Gullibles) only one explanation:

Mr Truly & Officer Baker didn't notice-----------and were not noticed by-----------Ms Adams & Ms Styles because the two men were over by the lunchroom with Mr Oswald when Ms Adams and Ms Styles crossed the second-floor landing.

Challenge to any Warren Gullible clinging on to the above (ear-plugs-dependent) scenario!:

Reconcile
a) Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's account to the WC of their post-assassination movements
with
b) Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's being on the first floor when Ms Adams & Ms Styles arrived on to it

 Thumb1:

And so we see, in the Stroud letter--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qyTQxYx/Stroud.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB6n2hRs)

--------------the tragicomical unravelling of the WC's dirty tactic of using Messrs Lovelady and Shelley to discredit Ms Adams' timeline. In her first paragraph, Ms Stroud details the changes made by Ms Adams; in her second paragraph, she (unwittingly, I have no doubt) shows what a dangerous miscalculation it is now proving for the WC to have gone all in on the Lovelady-Shelley first-floor sighting. Ms Garner's sighting of Mr Truly and the policeman coming up AFTER Ms Adams ran downstairs screws up the whole Shelley-Lovelady timeline, because it has Ms Adams & Ms Styles hitting the first floor within seconds of the second-floor lunchroom encounter! How in the heck do you get from Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's WC account to that? It's a total non-starter!

Accordingly! The Stroud letter is not included in the WC record. And neither Ms Garner nor Ms Styles are asked to help clarify the matter on-the-record.

But--------------I hear you ask--------------why didn't the WC go with the solution whereby Ms Adams' timeline is VINDICATED (give or take a few seconds) but her non-sighting of Mr Oswald NEUTRALISED? i.e.......

Mr Truly & Officer Baker didn't notice-----------and were not noticed by-----------Ms Adams & Ms Styles because the two men were over by the lunchroom with Mr Oswald when Ms Adams and Ms Styles crossed the second-floor landing.

Answer:
a) Because they were already in Lovelady/Shelley stepped in so far that returning were more impossible than go o'er
b) Because they knew that, even without the Lovelady/Shelley nonsense in the mix, that explanation's earplugs-on-everyone-involved premise would be too ridiculous for words!

No wonder Mr Nessan & Co. resent the Stroud letter so much!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 02:53:15 AM
(https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Large.png)

Thank you, Mr Davidson!  Thumb1:

Mr Lovelady, yes? Or are you noticing something else?

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Chris Davidson on July 27, 2022, 03:16:19 AM
Is more than one person on the steps wearing red????
Left arrow=upperbody+head, right arrow=red sleeved arm, not attached to the same body???
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 04:12:29 AM
Is more than one person on the steps wearing red????
Left arrow=upperbody+head, right arrow=red sleeved arm, not attached to the same body???

Ah, yes, I see what you mean. Thank you!

With the white (tshirt?) belonging to the owner of the arm on the right.....
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2022, 10:48:54 AM
And so we see, in the Stroud letter--------------

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qyTQxYx/Stroud.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XB6n2hRs)

--------------the tragicomical unravelling of the WC's dirty tactic of using Messrs Lovelady and Shelley to discredit Ms Adams' timeline. In her first paragraph, Ms Stroud details the changes made by Ms Adams; in her second paragraph, she (unwittingly, I have no doubt) shows what a dangerous miscalculation it is now proving for the WC to have gone all in on the Lovelady-Shelley first-floor sighting. Ms Garner's sighting of Mr Truly and the policeman coming up AFTER Ms Adams ran downstairs screws up the whole Shelley-Lovelady timeline, because it has Ms Adams & Ms Styles hitting the first floor within seconds of the second-floor lunchroom encounter! How in the heck do you get from Messrs Shelley & Lovelady's WC account to that? It's a total non-starter!

Accordingly! The Stroud letter is not included in the WC record. And neither Ms Garner nor Ms Styles are asked to help clarify the matter on-the-record.

But--------------I hear you ask--------------why didn't the WC go with the solution whereby Ms Adams' timeline is VINDICATED (give or take a few seconds) but her non-sighting of Mr Oswald NEUTRALISED? i.e.......

Mr Truly & Officer Baker didn't notice-----------and were not noticed by-----------Ms Adams & Ms Styles because the two men were over by the lunchroom with Mr Oswald when Ms Adams and Ms Styles crossed the second-floor landing.

Answer:
a) Because they were already in Lovelady/Shelley stepped in so far that returning were more impossible than go o'er
b) Because they knew that, even without the Lovelady/Shelley nonsense in the mix, that explanation's earplugs-on-everyone-involved premise would be too ridiculous for words!

No wonder Mr Nessan & Co. resent the Stroud letter so much!

 Thumb1:
But--------------I hear you ask--------------why didn't the WC go with the solution whereby Ms Adams' timeline is VINDICATED (give or take a few seconds) but her non-sighting of Mr Oswald NEUTRALISED?

I have wondered this myself.
If Adams' testimony is taken at face value it is easily argued that both she and Styles arrive at the stairs before Oswald reaches the same stairs two stories up. The stairs are an enclosed space with the women clattering down them in high heels. It is reasonable to assume the noise created in this enclosed space would make it incredibly difficult to be aware of anyone on the stairs a few flights up. There is absolutely no reason why they should be expected to see or hear Oswald on the staircase (particularly as he wasn't even coming down the staircase).
There is no reason to discredit Adams' timeline as there is no reason to suspect that if she and Styles were running down the staircase within seconds of the assassination they would bump into Oswald, or hear him coming down the stairs from above.
So why go to the bother of altering this testimony?

According to Barry Ernest, Adams is adamant her WC testimony was changed and that the part about seeing Lovelady and Shelley at the bottom of the staircase was an addition.
This assertion receives incredibly strong support from Lovelady's admission that he did not re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
The conclusion, that the WC altered witness testimony, is almost impossible to escape.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2022, 11:44:11 AM
Of interest is the following statement taken by Jim Leavelle on Feb 17, 1964:


(https://i.postimg.cc/PJww4LWP/Adams-Leavelle-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/JHR07zdL)(https://i.postimg.cc/L6gTC59k/Screenshot-248.png) (https://postimages.org/)

As with her WC testimony, it contains two key, and contradictory, elements:

1) That she started running downstairs immediately after the assassination.
2) She reached the first floor and saw Lovelady and Shelley

In every statement she makes, Adams is running - to the back stairs, down the stairs, out the rear door. Why is she running? In the above statement she makes it clear - she knew someone was being shot at and she wanted to find out what was going on. To imagine she stood around for a few minutes then suddenly sprinted down the stairs is silly. It was an immediate reaction to the shooting.
When we accept her consistent testimony about leaving the fourth floor within seconds of the assassination, and the understandable reason for her doing so, we must also accept that Shelley and Lovelady were not at the bottom of the stairs when Adams and Styles arrived there, seconds after the assassination.

Then why is the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor being made by Adams on Feb 17th?
Is it some weird mistake she is making?
Is it the beginning of conspiracy? Has this interview been tampered with?
According to Ernest, Adams never made the statement about seeing Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 27, 2022, 02:28:12 PM
But Mr Nessan gives 100% credence to that document and has declared it beyond the bounds of possibility that the word "there" could have been handwritten in by anyone other than Ms Adams.

His strange refusal to specify which document he was 'accusing' of being "completely fabricated" suggests that he's now embarrassed at the fact that he was referring to----------------actually referring to!--------------my illustrative addition of blue text:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzwbG40j/adams-wc2-final.jpg)

It could have been worse---------he could have accused the green on this document of being fake!

(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 :D :D :D

The Stroud document is a joke. Adams WC statement provides timestamps that render it a farce. Adams encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator on her way through the first floor. Stroud was at her desk when the shooting took place. She then goes to the window and does not know when they left.

Barry Ernest's statement about Adams does not include an encounter with the negroes. That must be some fake make-believe nonsense fron the Deep Politics Forum. Obviously Ernest never knew the encounters of Adams with the different police officers that would put time stamps on her and Styles movements.

Barry Ernest: 2011 

"The letter has since become known as "the Stroud document.
     Its contents concerned the testimony of Victoria Adams and how,
on examination, Miss Adams had noticed several spelling and
grammatical errors that she felt needed correction.  None of those
corrections were made in the final version, however."

Your rendition of her statement included "Top Secret" at the top. What would have been top secret about her statement?

Maybe this is not the right forum for fantasy evidence.


Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 02:48:36 PM
Then why is the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor being made by Adams on Feb 17th?
Is it some weird mistake she is making?
Is it the beginning of conspiracy? Has this interview been tampered with?

Feb 17 marked the moment when the Lovelady/Shelley scam was put into operation.

From Mr Barry Ernest's The Girl on the Stairs:

"She told me about the night she was startled to find Dallas police officer James Leavelle standing at her front doorstep. The date was February 17, 1964.
“One time, a detective from the Dallas police came to my apartment, showed his badge and asked to talk with me. I asked him why he needed to talk with me since I had already given my testimony to the Dallas police. ‘Oh,’ he responded, ‘the records were all burned in a fire we had and we have to interview everyone again.’"


Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 27, 2022, 02:52:56 PM
The Stroud document is a joke. Adams WC statement provides timestamps that render it a farce. Adams encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator on her way through the first floor.

'The fact that Garner saw something that rules out Adams' encounter with Shelley and Lovelady proves that Adams had the encounter with Shelley and Lovelady'

 :D

Quote
Stroud was at her desk when the shooting took place.

"Stroud" lol

Quote
She then goes to the window and does not know when they left.

Barry Ernest's statement about Adams does not include an encounter with the negroes. That must be some fake make-believe nonsense fron the Deep Politics Forum. Obviously Ernest never knew the encounters of Adams with the different police officers that would put time stamps on her and Styles movements.

Barry Ernest: 2011 

"The letter has since become known as "the Stroud document.
     Its contents concerned the testimony of Victoria Adams and how,
on examination, Miss Adams had noticed several spelling and
grammatical errors that she felt needed correction.  None of those
corrections were made in the final version, however."

Your rendition of her statement included "Top Secret" at the top. What would have been top secret about her statement?

~Grin~

My "rendition"? Nope--just my reproduction!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2022, 01:22:49 AM
The Stroud document is a joke. Adams WC statement provides timestamps that render it a farce. Adams encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator on her way through the first floor. Stroud was at her desk when the shooting took place. She then goes to the window and does not know when they left.

Barry Ernest's statement about Adams does not include an encounter with the negroes. That must be some fake make-believe nonsense fron the Deep Politics Forum. Obviously Ernest never knew the encounters of Adams with the different police officers that would put time stamps on her and Styles movements.

Barry Ernest: 2011 

"The letter has since become known as "the Stroud document.
     Its contents concerned the testimony of Victoria Adams and how,
on examination, Miss Adams had noticed several spelling and
grammatical errors that she felt needed correction.  None of those
corrections were made in the final version, however."

Your rendition of her statement included "Top Secret" at the top. What would have been top secret about her statement?

Maybe this is not the right forum for fantasy evidence.

Adams WC statement provides timestamps that render it a farce.

In his HSCA interview, after being presented with a still from the Hughes film showing him stood outside the TSBD building approximately ten minutes after the assassination, Billy Lovelady finally concedes that he didn't re-enter the building for 20-25 minutes after the shooting.
How does this fit in with Adams' timeline?

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 28, 2022, 02:19:45 PM
'The fact that Garner saw something that rules out Adams' encounter with Shelley and Lovelady proves that Adams had the encounter with Shelley and Lovelady'

 :D

"Stroud" lol

~Grin~

My "rendition"? Nope--just my reproduction!  Thumb1:

'The fact that Garner saw something that rules out Adams' encounter with Shelley and Lovelady proves that Adams had the encounter with Shelley and Lovelady'

Huh?

.----------------------

No, a fictional rendition. Reproduction leaves the impression it was real when it is just fiction.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 28, 2022, 02:28:23 PM
Feb 17 marked the moment when the Lovelady/Shelley scam was put into operation.

From Mr Barry Ernest's The Girl on the Stairs:

"She told me about the night she was startled to find Dallas police officer James Leavelle standing at her front doorstep. The date was February 17, 1964.
“One time, a detective from the Dallas police came to my apartment, showed his badge and asked to talk with me. I asked him why he needed to talk with me since I had already given my testimony to the Dallas police. ‘Oh,’ he responded, ‘the records were all burned in a fire we had and we have to interview everyone again.’"


Don't forget to post the part that the only problem Adams had with her WC testimony was grammar.

She encountered the police in the back and the front of the TSBD. The timestamps provided by these encounters render the Stroud document basically nonsense.

Barry Ernest: 2011 

"The letter has since become known as "the Stroud document.
     Its contents concerned the testimony of Victoria Adams and how,
on examination, Miss Adams had noticed several spelling and
grammatical errors that she felt needed correction.  None of those
corrections were made in the final version, however."
 

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 28, 2022, 02:31:24 PM
Adams WC statement provides timestamps that render it a farce.

In his HSCA interview, after being presented with a still from the Hughes film showing him stood outside the TSBD building approximately ten minutes after the assassination, Billy Lovelady finally concedes that he didn't re-enter the building for 20-25 minutes after the shooting.
How does this fit in with Adams' timeline?

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.



No, it wasn't an HSCA interview it was Groden trying to establish there was two people who looked like Lovelady. Even DiEugenio thought Lovelady was lying.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 07:46:25 PM

No, it wasn't an HSCA interview it was Groden trying to establish there was two people who looked like Lovelady. Even DiEugenio thought Lovelady was lying.

Yes, it was a HSCA interview.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

Lovelady lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Shelley.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Lovelady.
Both men lied about how long it was before they left the TSBD building steps.
Both Martin and Hughes filmed Lovelady outside the TSBD building around ten minutes after the assassination.
Lovelady didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes - these are his own words.
The encounter with Adams running down the stairs seconds after the assassination did not happen.
Adams insists her testimony was altered in this regard.
Styles confirms this.
Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor almost immediately.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:04:05 AM
No, a fictional rendition. Reproduction leaves the impression it was real when it is just fiction.

Oh lordy, Mr Nessan. Are you actually suggesting that the words 'TOP SECRET' stamped on those documents have been deceptively added by me, Mr Ernest, or some other CTer??

 :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:12:52 AM
Don't forget to post the part that the only problem Adams had with her WC testimony was grammar.

Because the transcript she was shown was not the same as the transcript that went into the record. I have already explained how easily this could have been done.

And---------of course----------we know that the reason she was given a chance to make corrections in the first place had nothing to do with getting an accurate version of her testimony for the record-------------------none of her changes were incorporated!

Quote
She encountered the police in the back

So?

Quote
and the front of the TSBD.

So?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:15:40 AM
Yes, it was a HSCA interview.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

Lovelady lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Shelley.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Lovelady.
Both men lied about how long it was before they left the TSBD building steps.
Both Martin and Hughes filmed Lovelady outside the TSBD building around ten minutes after the assassination.
Lovelady didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes - these are his own words.
The encounter with Adams running down the stairs seconds after the assassination did not happen.
Adams insists her testimony was altered in this regard.
Styles confirms this.
Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor almost immediately.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrLx31hc/scratch.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 04:39:25 AM
Good Question!

'If Ms Adams & Ms Styles did indeed leave the fourth floor by the rear stairs BEFORE Mr Truly and Officer Baker reached the fourth floor by the rear stairs, how on earth did they not see each other at any point????'

Good Answer!

(https://i.postimg.cc/2j4YL9rp/Baker-front-stairs-Washington-Post-1-Dec-marked.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lh6wrTJv)

(Washington Post, 12/1/63)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 04:45:03 AM
Mr. PIPER. ... I was already excited over the shooting or something when he [Mr Truly] came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.


Prizes for guessing which stairway on the first floor--------------front or rear?--------------Mr Piper is actually talking about here as being the one Mr Truly and Officer Baker actually took after running in the front door!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 04:49:46 AM
Prizes for guessing which stairway on the first floor--------------front or rear?--------------Mr Truly and Officer Baker actually took after running in the front door!

(https://i.postimg.cc/y6wwjm6m/Truly-front-stairs.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 04:51:28 AM
Prizes for guessing which stairway on the first floor--------------front or rear?--------------Mr Truly and Officer Baker actually took after running in the front door!

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLXJJ4L6/Pinkston-Truly-front-stairs.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 30, 2022, 07:40:08 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrLx31hc/scratch.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 30, 2022, 01:52:03 PM
Yes, it was a HSCA interview.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

Lovelady lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Shelley.
Shelley lied in his WC testimony about entering the west door with Lovelady.
Both men lied about how long it was before they left the TSBD building steps.
Both Martin and Hughes filmed Lovelady outside the TSBD building around ten minutes after the assassination.
Lovelady didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes - these are his own words.
The encounter with Adams running down the stairs seconds after the assassination did not happen.
Adams insists her testimony was altered in this regard.
Styles confirms this.
Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor almost immediately.

No it was not.

This was always Grodin's pet project. Who authorized them to go find Bill Lovelady and interview him about anything? Were they actually even talking to Lovelady? There is a question about the authenticity of Lovelady's signature on some signed documents.

You need a better list with a little more research behind it. Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits. That is what the WC learned from Adams's testimony

Garner did not confirm a thing.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 30, 2022, 02:00:05 PM
Oh lordy, Mr Nessan. Are you actually suggesting that the words 'TOP SECRET' stamped on those documents have been deceptively added by me, Mr Ernest, or some other CTer??

 :D

Are you suggesting the WC did? For what reason? They did not have anything else to do?

Adams told Barry Ernest the only issue she had with the official WC transcript was grammar and spelling.

You aleady stated all the additions to the official transcript were your nonsense. Except for the change from "it" to "there". That was Adams.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 30, 2022, 02:09:34 PM
Because the transcript she was shown was not the same as the transcript that went into the record. I have already explained how easily this could have been done.

And---------of course----------we know that the reason she was given a chance to make corrections in the first place had nothing to do with getting an accurate version of her testimony for the record-------------------none of her changes were incorporated!

So?

So?

Your opinion is now taking on the status of a fact?

The WC proved they left later than they thought, approximately 5 minutes later. That is in the official record. Styles affidavit confirms their encounters and their return to the front of the building.

Instead of engaging in this CT circle jerk maybe try reading and then try comprehending a little.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:32:34 PM
Are you suggesting the WC did? For what reason? They did not have anything else to do?

~Grin~

Are you, or are you not, claiming that the words 'TOP SECRET' have been fraudulently added to each page of the document by someone not involved in the official curation of the document? Yes or no?

Quote
Adams told Barry Ernest the only issue she had with the official WC transcript was grammar and spelling.

Nonsense! She told Mr Ernest she had major issues with the version of her WC testimony that was published. It was different to the transcript she had been asked to make corrections to----the transcript whose only issues involved grammar, punctuation & spelling.

And the fact that all of her changes were ignored proves that the purpose of getting her to make corrections had nothing to do with getting the published version of her testimony as accurate as possible. She had already waived the right to make corrections, yet they insisted on her making them nonetheless----------because they needed her handwriting on a number of pages in order to work their scam.

Quote
You aleady stated all the additions to the official transcript were your nonsense.

Nope! I have demonstrated how easy it was to pull the scam on the unsuspecting Ms Adams  Thumb1:

Quote
Except for the change from "it" to "there". That was Adams.

Like I say, this is the entire basis upon which you brand Ms Adams a liar..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So-----------over to you with your proof that no one else could possibly have written this one little word in!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:38:36 PM
The WC proved they left later than they thought, approximately 5 minutes later.

It was in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett whom Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered when they came off the loading dock and ran out just past the first railroad track

(https://i.postimg.cc/MZgPwYSy/tsbd-back-smaller.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And it may well have been Officer Barnett too whom Ms Adams had words with at the front door a few minutes later:

Mr. Liebeler.
How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. Barnett.
It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Liebeler.
From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes.


Don't cry, Mr Nessan, but your silly little Warren Gullible timeline is DOA!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 30, 2022, 02:40:32 PM
No it was not.

This was always Grodin's pet project. Who authorized them to go find Bill Lovelady and interview him about anything? Were they actually even talking to Lovelady? There is a question about the authenticity of Lovelady's signature on some signed documents.

Good grief, poor Mr Nessan appears to have lost it altogether...............  ::)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 30, 2022, 04:28:28 PM
Seems to me like the Lovelady  and Shelley “guarding the elevators”  story was to CYA for Bsker crossing to run up the staircases instead of just guarding the ground floor by the rear staircase and elevators.

Thus the shooter might have been actually descending in one of those elevators ( instead of the unconfirmed supposed  trip by Jack Dougherty) to reach the ground floor about 70 secs post shots.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 30, 2022, 07:16:05 PM
No it was not.

This was always Grodin's pet project. Who authorized them to go find Bill Lovelady and interview him about anything? Were they actually even talking to Lovelady? There is a question about the authenticity of Lovelady's signature on some signed documents.

You need a better list with a little more research behind it. Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits. That is what the WC learned from Adams's testimony

Garner did not confirm a thing.

Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits

From Adams' WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Not really sure how Adams' WC testimony equates with your made up time of 12:25pm. She insists she left the fourth floor within seconds, totally contradicting your suggestion to use WC testimony to confirm your made up timing.

Garner did not confirm a thing.

From Barry Ernest's interview with Garner as recounted in his article, "Another Ignored Witness Found":

The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs, and who she had made the comment to that appeared in the Stroud document.
"I was at the window with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, and Sandra Styles," she said.
Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.
"The girls did," she responded.  "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."
They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.
What did Mrs. Garner do after that?
"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."
Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the
elevators.  But how fast had she arrived there?
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles.   She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something."  Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-floor landing seconds after.  When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down.  I remember the stairs were very noisy."


Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor immediately. She also confirms the Stroud document with this account of her movements.

I wouldn't suggest you try a little more research...just try some.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 31, 2022, 02:19:45 AM
Mr. PIPER. ... I was already excited over the shooting or something when he [Mr Truly] came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.


Prizes for guessing which stairway on the first floor--------------front or rear?--------------Mr Piper is actually talking about here as being the one Mr Truly and Officer Baker actually took after running in the front door!

 Thumb1:

Friends, let us be clear about what Mr Piper is actually telling us when he uses these words: "he [Mr Truly] ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out"

These words make ZERO sense if applied to the rear area of the first floor.

They make sense ONLY if applied to the front of the first floor.

At the time Mr Piper saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker go up the stairs, he was facing and looking at the front lobby/entrance.

After seeing Mr Truly and Officer Baker run up the stairs, he was still standing there, i.e. in the same place-------a place that offered a clear line of sight to the front lobby/entrance

He saw people already outside who were swarming out and around towards the street

He saw some people (after Truly/officer had left) coming in through the front door

But it was where no one could come out from the inside front of the building to the outside that lay beyond the glass door-------------because Mr Piper would have noticed them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/65BYVHDH/TSBD-entrance-to-street.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And we can now make sense of this:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.


Mr Piper is stating that he never saw Ms Adams come down the front stairway, though he is allowing for the possibility that she may indeed have come down it after he moved away and went to the back of the first floor

(https://i.postimg.cc/T11hfvK7/Storage-Room-campbell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 31, 2022, 02:42:27 AM
Since Mrs Garners statement is “I remember hearing THEM” then it’s a reasonable conclusion that there must have been some specific noise such as voices heard or heels clacking that convinced Garner that Adams and Stiles were the ones going down the staircase.

If that premise is correct then Mrs Garner had to have exited the 4th floor office by 30-35 sec post shots so as to arrive near the rear staircase by the west window approximately 40-45 sec post shots , thus A/S only about down and voice transmission more probable to be heard.

If Garner waited until 60 secs post shots before exiting , thus allowing enough time for Oswald to get down to the 4th floor , cross the landing and out of LOS , then It would be impossible for Garner to have heard any voices/heels clacking specific noise from Adams/Styles as they have exited the TSBD by that time.

The only noise that would have been heard would be a single persons 135lb weight transferred by padded flat shoes impacting the wooden steps as opposed to the greater weight of 2 women ( approx 250 lbs ) with pointed heel shoes concentrating that weight as point loads on the wooden steps.

I submit the 2 wornens weight of 250 lbs impacting the wooden steps  as more concentrated point loads  would generate the level of noise that Mrs Garner would state as being “VERY noisy”.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 31, 2022, 01:54:34 PM
It was in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett whom Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered when they came off the loading dock and ran out just past the first railroad track

(https://i.postimg.cc/MZgPwYSy/tsbd-back-smaller.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And it may well have been Officer Barnett too whom Ms Adams had words with at the front door a few minutes later:

Mr. Liebeler.
How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. Barnett.
It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Liebeler.
From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes.


Don't cry, Mr Nessan, but your silly little Warren Gullible timeline is DOA!  Thumb1:

This is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. The problem with Deep Politics is there is no one to explain to you how screwed up your thinking truly is. Once again your opinion is being offered as a fact.

Supposedly within seconds of the assassination, Welcome Barnett ran to the back of the TSBD to meet Styles and Adams and tell them to go back out front. Then he runs back out front and tells them they cannot re-enter the building. Deep Politics Forum thinking at its finest.

Barnett's estimation of time is just an estimate. There are more factual time stamps.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 31, 2022, 01:55:36 PM
~Grin~

Are you, or are you not, claiming that the words 'TOP SECRET' have been fraudulently added to each page of the document by someone not involved in the official curation of the document? Yes or no?

Nonsense! She told Mr Ernest she had major issues with the version of her WC testimony that was published. It was different to the transcript she had been asked to make corrections to----the transcript whose only issues involved grammar, punctuation & spelling.

And the fact that all of her changes were ignored proves that the purpose of getting her to make corrections had nothing to do with getting the published version of her testimony as accurate as possible. She had already waived the right to make corrections, yet they insisted on her making them nonetheless----------because they needed her handwriting on a number of pages in order to work their scam.

Nope! I have demonstrated how easy it was to pull the scam on the unsuspecting Ms Adams  Thumb1:

Like I say, this is the entire basis upon which you brand Ms Adams a liar..................

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLNGrbk9/adams-vickie-07-there.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So-----------over to you with your proof that no one else could possibly have written this one little word in!  Thumb1:

I have no desire to babysit you. You posted the ridiculous tripe. You explain it.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on July 31, 2022, 01:58:01 PM
Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits

From Adams' WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Not really sure how Adams' WC testimony equates with your made up time of 12:25pm. She insists she left the fourth floor within seconds, totally contradicting your suggestion to use WC testimony to confirm your made up timing.

Garner did not confirm a thing.

From Barry Ernest's interview with Garner as recounted in his article, "Another Ignored Witness Found":

The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs, and who she had made the comment to that appeared in the Stroud document.
"I was at the window with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, and Sandra Styles," she said.
Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.
"The girls did," she responded.  "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."
They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.
What did Mrs. Garner do after that?
"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."
Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the
elevators.  But how fast had she arrived there?
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles.   She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something."  Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-floor landing seconds after.  When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down.  I remember the stairs were very noisy."


Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor immediately. She also confirms the Stroud document with this account of her movements.

I wouldn't suggest you try a little more research...just try some.

Nice work Dan, but it has all been viewed before. You don't need to do any research, just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong. The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 31, 2022, 04:48:44 PM
This is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. The problem with Deep Politics is there is no one to explain to you how screwed up your thinking truly is. Once again your opinion is being offered as a fact.

Supposedly within seconds of the assassination, Welcome Barnett ran to the back of the TSBD to meet Styles and Adams and tell them to go back out front. Then he runs back out front and tells them they cannot re-enter the building. Deep Politics Forum thinking at its finest.

Barnett's estimation of time is just an estimate. There are more factual time stamps.

~Snicker~

Translation, Part I: 'My claim that Adams & Styles' encounter with a policeman when they exited the Depository discredits Adams' timeline has itself been discredited, and I'm mad about it'

Translation, Part II: ''My claim that Adams' mention of a policeman at the Depository front door further discredits Adams' timeline has itself also been discredited, and I'm mad as hell about it'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 31, 2022, 04:49:47 PM
I have no desire to babysit you. You posted the ridiculous tripe. You explain it.

Another painful L for poor Mr Nessan!   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 31, 2022, 04:52:53 PM
Nice work Dan, but it has all been viewed before. You don't need to do any research, just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong. The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.

Another hopeless bot-like response from Mr Nessan. He just runs away from the hard questions, every time, and takes cover under discredited Warren Gullible talking points. Sad! (But funny!!)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 31, 2022, 08:33:46 PM
The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.

And we should believe this because Jack says so.

 :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on July 31, 2022, 09:17:33 PM
And we should believe this because Jack says so.

 :D

-"2+2=5"
-"But the calculator says 2+2=4"
-"The calculator is a joke. Because 2+2=5"
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2022, 03:33:39 AM
Nice work Dan, but it has all been viewed before. You don't need to do any research, just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong. The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.

Nice work Dan

Thanks, I thought so too  Thumb1:

You don't need to do any research

I find it helps

just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong

I've done that and found nothing.
you seem to fully accept the part of Adams' testimony regarding the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley...

Even though Adams herself insists this has been fabricated.
Even though Styles confirms no such encounter took place.
Even though Shelley contradicts this encounter by saying he thought he saw Adams later on and on the fourth floor.
Even though Lovelady has clearly been coached about Vickie Adams.
Even though Lovelady admits he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
Even though Adams states in her WC testimony she left within seconds.
Even though both Garner and Styles confirm this.
Even though Garner's interview with Ernest corroborates the Stroud document.

Not good work Jack.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 01, 2022, 04:54:22 PM
Nice work Dan

Thanks, I thought so too  Thumb1:

You don't need to do any research

I find it helps

just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong

I've done that and found nothing.
you seem to fully accept the part of Adams' testimony regarding the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley...

Even though Adams herself insists this has been fabricated.
Even though Styles confirms no such encounter took place.
Even though Shelley contradicts this encounter by saying he thought he saw Adams later on and on the fourth floor.
Even though Lovelady has clearly been coached about Vickie Adams.
Even though Lovelady admits he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
Even though Adams states in her WC testimony she left within seconds.
Even though both Garner and Styles confirm this.
Even though Garner's interview with Ernest corroborates the Stroud document.

Not good work Jack.

Of course, the WC had a clean, simple way to discredit Ms Adams: call Ms Styles as a witness. No more effective way to destroy Ms Adams' claimed timeline than by seeking the account of the woman who ran down the stairs with her.

They didn't call Ms Styles. Instead they resorted to the ridiculous Shelley/Lovelady 'solution'.

Speaks volumes about their fear of what Ms Styles would have testified to. Why, it would have been even more disastrous than putting Ms Garner in the stand-------which is saying something!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2022, 02:05:03 PM
~Snicker~

Translation, Part I: 'My claim that Adams & Styles' encounter with a policeman when they exited the Depository discredits Adams' timeline has itself been discredited, and I'm mad about it'

Translation, Part II: ''My claim that Adams' mention of a policeman at the Depository front door further discredits Adams' timeline has itself also been discredited, and I'm mad as hell about it'

 Thumb1:

Huh? Really this makes zero sense-- once again. It will help you if you read the WC testimony of Harkness and Sawyer. It puts the whole Adams -Styles saga to rest.

No further explanation on why Welcome Barnett sprinted to the back of the TSBD, turned the girls around then sprinted back to the front of the TSBD to deny them access to the building? Absolutely brilliant thinking. Deep Politics Forum would be proud.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2022, 02:06:58 PM
Another painful L for poor Mr Nessan!   Thumb1:

Really, I do not want to continue babysitting you. It is your post. If you can't explain the relevance of your own posts, maybe stop making them. It must be a Deep Politics thing to make wild claims and then not be able to substantiate them or support them.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 03, 2022, 02:12:14 PM
Nice work Dan

Thanks, I thought so too  Thumb1:

You don't need to do any research

I find it helps

just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong

I've done that and found nothing.
you seem to fully accept the part of Adams' testimony regarding the encounter with Lovelady and Shelley...

Even though Adams herself insists this has been fabricated.
Even though Styles confirms no such encounter took place.
Even though Shelley contradicts this encounter by saying he thought he saw Adams later on and on the fourth floor.
Even though Lovelady has clearly been coached about Vickie Adams.
Even though Lovelady admits he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
Even though Adams states in her WC testimony she left within seconds.
Even though both Garner and Styles confirm this.
Even though Garner's interview with Ernest corroborates the Stroud document.

Not good work Jack.

Dan you have somehow completely gotten off track. The info in this post in no way resembles your original post. Did you give up on your quotes and the subsequent supporting information? If you did, good choice, there was nothing there.

If you can prove any of what is on this list, how about a few quotes to go along with your claims? A quick scan of the list and once it looks like again a lot of crap being offered as proof.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2022, 05:01:22 PM
Huh? Really this makes zero sense-- once again. It will help you if you read the WC testimony of Harkness and Sawyer. It puts the whole Adams -Styles saga to rest.

No further explanation on why Welcome Barnett sprinted to the back of the TSBD, turned the girls around then sprinted back to the front of the TSBD to deny them access to the building? Absolutely brilliant thinking. Deep Politics Forum would be proud.

:D

You made silly claims, Mr Nessan, and got caught out because you hadn't read Officer Barnett's testimony. And now you're just waving your arms helplessly in the air.

This kind of thing would happen to you less often if you actually did some research before making silly claims
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 03, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
Dan you have somehow completely gotten off track. The info in this post in no way resembles your original post. Did you give up on your quotes and the subsequent supporting information? If you did, good choice, there was nothing there.

If you can prove any of what is on this list, how about a few quotes to go along with your claims? A quick scan of the list and once it looks like again a lot of crap being offered as proof.

Yet another hopelessly bot-like response from Mr Nessan. Even his fellow Warren Gullibles must be wincing by now!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 04, 2022, 02:08:37 PM
:D

You made silly claims, Mr Nessan, and got caught out because you hadn't read Officer Barnett's testimony. And now you're just waving your arms helplessly in the air.

This kind of thing would happen to you less often if you actually did some research before making silly claims

No, I don't think so. Really spot on.
Let us look at your post again. You are obviously proud of it. Maybe something was overlooked. No appears to be just ignorance.
A Ford:
"in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett"
"it may well have been Officer Barnett"


 Absolutely brilliantly stated. A real credit to your Deep Politics heritage. Are all your posts this concise? You were able to glean this valuable info from Barnett's testimony?
Thoughts this valuable deserve a second quote.


"It was in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett whom Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered when they came off the loading dock and ran out just past the first railroad track"


"And it may well have been Officer Barnett too whom Ms Adams had words with at the front door a few minutes later:"

Mr. Liebeler.
How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. Barnett.
It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Liebeler.
From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes.

Is there any part of the assassination you are particularly knowledgeable about? The Styles and Adams storyline seems to have gone right past you.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 04, 2022, 02:19:15 PM
No, I don't think so. Really spot on.
Let us look at your post again. You are obviously proud of it. Maybe something was overlooked. No appears to be just ignorance.
A Ford:
"in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett"
"it may well have been Officer Barnett"


 Absolutely brilliantly stated. A real credit to your Deep Politics heritage. Are all your posts this concise? You were able to glean this valuable info from Barnett's testimony?
Thoughts this valuable deserve a second quote.


"It was in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett whom Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered when they came off the loading dock and ran out just past the first railroad track"


"And it may well have been Officer Barnett too whom Ms Adams had words with at the front door a few minutes later:"

Mr. Liebeler.
How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. Barnett.
It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Liebeler.
From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes.

Is there any part of the assassination you are particularly knowledgeable about? The Styles and Adams storyline seems to have gone right past you.

This is all you've got, Mr Nessan? Really. Gee, I feel your pain.

You claimed there was no police presence behind the Depository early enough for Ms Adams' timestamp for her exit. I proved you wrong.

You claimed there was no police presence at the front door of the Depository early enough for Ms Adams' account of speaking to an officer there when she wished to return inside the building. I proved you wrong.

After that, it's just been embarrassed histrionics from you

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 05, 2022, 12:28:00 AM
Dan you have somehow completely gotten off track. The info in this post in no way resembles your original post. Did you give up on your quotes and the subsequent supporting information? If you did, good choice, there was nothing there.

If you can prove any of what is on this list, how about a few quotes to go along with your claims? A quick scan of the list and once it looks like again a lot of crap being offered as proof.

This post is utterly meaningless, nonsensical and irrelevant.
It is obviously a tactic employed to disguise how out of your depth you are.
But I'll throw you a bone...
Rather than deal with the list I presented in full, just critique one point, any point you want and explain to me, and everyone else what is wrong with it:

Adams herself insists this has been fabricated.
Styles confirms no such encounter took place.
Shelley contradicts this encounter by saying he thought he saw Adams later on and on the fourth floor.
Lovelady has clearly been coached about Vickie Adams.
Lovelady admits he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
Adams states in her WC testimony she left within seconds.
Both Garner and Styles confirm that Adams left immediately.
Garner's interview with Ernest corroborates the Stroud document.



Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 05, 2022, 02:05:17 PM
This is all you've got, Mr Nessan? Really. Gee, I feel your pain.

You claimed there was no police presence behind the Depository early enough for Ms Adams' timestamp for her exit. I proved you wrong.

You claimed there was no police presence at the front door of the Depository early enough for Ms Adams' account of speaking to an officer there when she wished to return inside the building. I proved you wrong.

After that, it's just been embarrassed histrionics from you

 Thumb1:

You did not prove anything at all. That is the point. This is what you call proof?

A Ford:
"in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett"
"it may well have been Officer Barnett"


Why the reluctance to quote Barnett? You are all over the place but stop short of admitting how silly your theory about Barnett is. You can't even admit you are talking about him because it is so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 05, 2022, 02:11:15 PM
This post is utterly meaningless, nonsensical and irrelevant.
It is obviously a tactic employed to disguise how out of your depth you are.
But I'll throw you a bone...
Rather than deal with the list I presented in full, just critique one point, any point you want and explain to me, and everyone else what is wrong with it:

Adams herself insists this has been fabricated.
Styles confirms no such encounter took place.
Shelley contradicts this encounter by saying he thought he saw Adams later on and on the fourth floor.
Lovelady has clearly been coached about Vickie Adams.
Lovelady admits he didn't re-enter the TSBD building for 20-25 minutes after the assassination.
Adams states in her WC testimony she left within seconds.
Both Garner and Styles confirm that Adams left immediately.
Garner's interview with Ernest corroborates the Stroud document.

Just a thought, but maybe instead of throwing me a bone, how about grow a pair. No one is asking you to do anything but provide the proof of what you are posting. It is your list feel free to quote these people. Obviously, your other post was pure nonsense, when it was questioned it sure disappeared in a hurry and replaced by whatever goofy nonsense this is.

 There must not be any basis for your statements or there would not seem to be such a problem quoting them. Basically, you are admitting there is no proof of any kind. Just idle BS.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2022, 03:38:37 PM
You did not prove anything at all. That is the point. This is what you call proof?

A Ford:
"in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett"
"it may well have been Officer Barnett"

 :D

Translation 'I can no longer claim that Ms Adams couldn't possibly have encountered a police officer in that area so soon after the shooting, so I'm going to cry myself an angry river'
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 05, 2022, 04:30:50 PM
Just a thought, but maybe instead of throwing me a bone, how about grow a pair. No one is asking you to do anything but provide the proof of what you are posting. It is your list feel free to quote these people. Obviously, your other post was pure nonsense, when it was questioned it sure disappeared in a hurry and replaced by whatever goofy nonsense this is.

 There must not be any basis for your statements or there would not seem to be such a problem quoting them. Basically, you are admitting there is no proof of any kind. Just idle BS.

More cringe stuff from Mr Nessan
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Jack Nessan on August 06, 2022, 05:51:45 PM
More cringe stuff from Mr Nessan

Many thanks to you and Dan. By making false claims and posting dubious evidence and completely failing to provide a legitimate supported alternative scenario, it only served to prove the official WC conclusions are the correct ones. Too bad Barry Ernest had not taken the time to read the WC Witness testimonies. He could have saved himself the effort of writing the book.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 06, 2022, 06:45:24 PM
Many thanks to you and Dan. By making false claims and posting dubious evidence and completely failing to provide a legitimate supported alternative scenario, it only served to prove the official WC conclusions are the correct ones. Too bad Barry Ernest had not taken the time to read the WC Witness testimonies. He could have saved himself the effort of writing the book.

Too bad Barry Ernest had not taken the time to read the WC Witness testimonies.

Oh, but he did. He just isn't as gullible as you.

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on August 06, 2022, 10:31:16 PM
Nice work Dan, but it has all been viewed before. You don't need to do any research, just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong. The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.

 :D :D :D

You call the Stroud Document a joke. Based on what....your own personal opinion?

And it's only your opinion that "Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did".

No facts presented here.   
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 07, 2022, 05:40:31 AM
Many thanks to you and Dan. By making false claims and posting dubious evidence and completely failing to provide a legitimate supported alternative scenario, it only served to prove the official WC conclusions are the correct ones.

Finish the sentence for us, Mr Nessan:

Officer Barnett could not possibly have been the police officer Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered behind the Depository because...................................

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on August 07, 2022, 11:05:06 AM
Friends, let us be clear about what Mr Piper is actually telling us when he uses these words: "he [Mr Truly] ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out"

These words make ZERO sense if applied to the rear area of the first floor.

They make sense ONLY if applied to the front of the first floor.

At the time Mr Piper saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker go up the stairs, he was facing and looking at the front lobby/entrance.

After seeing Mr Truly and Officer Baker run up the stairs, he was still standing there, i.e. in the same place-------a place that offered a clear line of sight to the front lobby/entrance

He saw people already outside who were swarming out and around towards the street

He saw some people (after Truly/officer had left) coming in through the front door

But it was where no one could come out from the inside front of the building to the outside that lay beyond the glass door-------------because Mr Piper would have noticed them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/65BYVHDH/TSBD-entrance-to-street.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And we can now make sense of this:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.


Mr Piper is stating that he never saw Ms Adams come down the front stairway, though he is allowing for the possibility that she may indeed have come down it after he moved away and went to the back of the first floor

(https://i.postimg.cc/T11hfvK7/Storage-Room-campbell.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Great point Mr. Ford and one that's rarely brought up.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 07, 2022, 02:41:48 PM
Great point Mr. Ford and one that's rarely brought up.

Thanking you kindly, Mr Plant!  Thumb1:

Mr Piper's claimed vantage point for the P. Parade--------------one of the 'windows' at the front of the first floor--------------would have been credible if the assassination had happened the previous year:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y93xNyky/Dealey-Plaza-Dallas-Texas-March-16-1962-PIPER.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0MzmPnzp)

I believe Mr Piper watched the P. Parade from inside the building vestibule.

Here's what he told the Sheriff's Dept.:

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYBS29rg/Piper-affidavit-window.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Here's what he told the FBI:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFnCTPkv/Eddie-Piper-fbi-window.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Notice the use here of "standing" (not sitting). There was but one set of south-facing windows worthy of the name on the first floor. And to see out of there, especially with a crowd of people on the steps, one had to be standing up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLfn4G1W/TSBD-entrance-to-street-MARKED.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mr Piper was, in short, in the perfect place to see Officer Baker and Mr Truly come running in and go up the FRONT stairs. And the perfect place to see Mr Oswald step outside to watch the P. Parade.

His witnessing of these things was disastrous to the official story. Hence his need to pretend to have watched the motorcade from somewhere else. Unfortunately, he chose for that somewhere else----------a blind spot!

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 07, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Thanking you kindly, Mr Plant!  Thumb1:

Mr Piper's claimed vantage point for the P. Parade--------------one of the 'windows' at the front of the first floor--------------would have been credible if the assassination had happened the previous year:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y93xNyky/Dealey-Plaza-Dallas-Texas-March-16-1962-PIPER.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0MzmPnzp)

I believe Mr Piper watched the P. Parade from just inside the front door.

Here's what he told the Sheriff's Dept.:

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYBS29rg/Piper-affidavit-window.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Here's what he told the FBI:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFnCTPkv/Eddie-Piper-fbi-window.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

He was in the perfect place to see Officer Baker and Mr Truly come running in and go up the FRONT stairs. And the perfect place to see Mr Oswald go outside to watch the P. Parade.

Hence his need to pretend to have watched the motorcade from somewhere else. Unfortunately, he chose for that somewhere else----------a blind spot!

 Thumb1:

This might also explain Mr Bill Shelley's oddly well-informed response to Mr Ball here:

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.


Some five minutes after the assassination, Mr Piper finally leaves his 'window'?

We believe you, Mr Shelley. We really do!  ;)
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 08, 2022, 03:38:00 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLfn4G1W/TSBD-entrance-to-street-MARKED.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In fact, it is quite possible that Mr Piper sat on the west radiator eating his lunch awaiting the motorcade, then stood up to see what he could of Pres. Kennedy passing, then sat back down. If so, then he may well be a background figure behind the glass in Darnell, blending into Prayer Man's form............

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 08, 2022, 04:20:00 AM
If Mr Piper is sitting on that west radiator, then Prayer Man's body may actually be facing forward rather than to the side, with his arms folded---------and what folks have taken to be Prayer Man's left elbow/arm is in fact a piece of Mr Piper behind the glass

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMStD9Cv/Prayer-Man-piper.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on August 08, 2022, 10:46:40 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLfn4G1W/TSBD-entrance-to-street-MARKED.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In fact, it is quite possible that Mr Piper sat on the west radiator eating his lunch awaiting the motorcade, then stood up to see what he could of Pres. Kennedy passing, then sat back down. If so, then he may well be a background figure behind the glass in Darnell, blending into Prayer Man's form............

Thumb1:

That could very well be the case, especially if there was some sort of reflection in the glass. Unfortunately, with the distorted photo you really can't tell for certain if the figure of Piper was behind the Prayer Man. But if you look closely enough, it appears there could be something next to the Prayer Man's left arm in the background.   
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 08, 2022, 03:06:50 PM
That could very well be the case, especially if there was some sort of reflection in the glass. Unfortunately, with the distorted photo you really can't tell for certain if the figure of Piper was behind the Prayer Man. But if you look closely enough, it appears there could be something next to the Prayer Man's left arm in the background.   

Yes, Mr Plant, if one goes through frame by frame, then there does appear to be some visual information there behind the glass that may be lending illusory volume to Prayer Man's body............

e.g.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kzk5H0jy/Prayer-Man-piper-perhaps.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Some have suggested that this is Prayer Man's reflection in the glass, but I'm not sure the light conditions are right for that........

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2022, 01:29:56 PM

At the time Mr Piper saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker go up the stairs, he was facing and looking at the front lobby/entrance.


Evening Star (Washington), 11/29/63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCb376by/Truly-offices-and-rooms.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 09, 2022, 01:38:29 PM
Evening Star (Washington), 11/29/63:

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCb376by/Truly-offices-and-rooms.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

 Thumb1:

Possibly not unrelated!

Ms. Geneva Hine early statement:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRLJwgcV/Hine-policeman-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Officer Baker in the book First Day Evidence:

(https://i.postimg.cc/gcBCGmn3/Baker-first-day-evidence-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Could it be that Officer Baker wished to clarify the situation BEFORE proceeding further? Did he put in a telephone call to verify that shots had indeed been fired at Pres. Kennedy? Note that Ms Hine says the officer only told her the Pres. had been shot AFTER he had operated the switchboard............

 :-\
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2022, 03:16:27 PM
Ms. Geneva Hine early statement:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRLJwgcV/Hine-policeman-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Who, after Officer Baker, was the first law enforcement officer to enter the building? And how soon after the shooting did he enter?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 10, 2022, 06:52:44 PM
Who, after Officer Baker, was the first law enforcement officer to enter the building? And how soon after the shooting did he enter?

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRLJwgcV/Hine-policeman-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Ms Hine gives a very different account to the WC:

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.

The individual policeman who appeared on the scene "almost immediately" after Ms Hine witnessed pandemonium out on the street has vanished from the story..........................
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Rick Plant on August 11, 2022, 09:58:22 AM
Here's Mr Lovelady in Hughes (just behind Mr Carl Edward Jones):

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyVBL44c/Lovelady-in-Hughes.gif) (https://postimages.org/)

Look closely, and you will see a figure in blue behind him, closer to the center of the doorway.

Who can it be? It can't be Mr Buell Wesley Frazier, who is not in blue. I believe it's Mr Shelley.

A few seconds later, and Mr Lovelady has moved over to the center of the doorway and back up a few steps. Just behind him, I believe, is Mr Shelley:

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmgP47Qz/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0008-SHELLEY.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now cf!:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kqvBGFR/6lpq32.gif)

 Thumb1:

That appears to be Shelley wearing the plaid shirt. 
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 11, 2022, 12:52:06 PM
That appears to be Shelley wearing the plaid shirt.

?
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2022, 11:53:56 PM
That appears to be Shelley wearing the plaid shirt.

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 12, 2022, 10:41:59 AM
I don't think folks have fully grasped the potential significance of this exchange in Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony:

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.


The fact that Mr Frazier had seen this jacket on Mr Oswald before 11/22/63 means that he is not basing his memory on but a fleeting glimpse that morning.

If his recollection of the jacket Mr Oswald wore to work that morning is correct, then we have never seen (at least knowingly) that jacket..................
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 14, 2022, 03:42:52 PM
I don't think folks have fully grasped the potential significance of this exchange in Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony:

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.


The fact that Mr Frazier had seen this jacket on Mr Oswald before 11/22/63 means that he is not basing his memory on but a fleeting glimpse that morning.

If his recollection of the jacket Mr Oswald wore to work that morning is correct, then we have never seen (at least knowingly) that jacket..................

Friends, the claim that Mr Lovelady can be seen walking down the Elm small street in Couch is undermined devastated by the fact that
a) Mr Lovelady appears to be still on the steps in Darnell
b) the 'Shelley' beside him in Couch is in fact Mr Danny Arce
c) the 'plaid' on his shirt is far from established given the 'plaid' on other folks in that grainy film
d) the 'shirt' itself looks too long in the tail to be the shirt Mr Lovelady wore that day

(https://i.postimg.cc/fW9pzBDx/Couch-film-frame-0001-shirt-length.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsgR555M/Lovelady-in-Martin-frame-0082-shirt-length.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/76ryncNn/Lovelady-groden.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhsKTzhb/Lovelady-posing-Bob-Jackson.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Given that Mr Oswald, at the time of the shooting, may have been wearing the flannel, wool-looking jacket that Mr Buell Wesley Frazier puts on him that morning, but that has never been seen since, it is quite possible that this man is in fact none other than Mr Oswald himself, following Mr Shelley, who (after his encounter with Ms Gloria Calvery out by the "corner of the park") has already gone a ways ahead down that little side road towards the railroad tracks:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxgz5CBC/Couch-film-frame-0007-lho-possibly.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

If so, then those who insist that this is Mr Lovelady in Couch have fallen victim to the very switcheroo I have posited in this thread: the LHO-resembling Mr Lovelady was prevailed upon to pretend that HE was the male employee who accompanied Mr Shelley down to the tracks shortly after the shots rang out

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Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 14, 2022, 05:33:00 PM
There’s really no good reason to think that’s Shelley either.
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 14, 2022, 05:48:57 PM
There’s really no good reason to think that’s Shelley either.

'Shelley' = Mr Danny Arce  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
Post by: Alan Ford on August 14, 2022, 06:02:14 PM
Some myths in JFKResearchLand refuse to die.

One such is that this is Mr Bill Shelley:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKvfJBkZ/Altgens-Groden-300-70-marked.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjB2TBHF/Darnell-Molina.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

We know it's not because Mr Shelley himself stated on the record that he was OUT OF VIEW in the Altgens photograph:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0yJhXX5Y/Shelley-altgens-out-of-view.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The man usually identified as Mr Shelley is in fact Mr Joe Molina.

Mr Shelley is nowhere to be seen on those steps in Darnell.

As for where Mr Shelley was at the time of the shooting itself, I believe this is him here in Wiegman-------------"standing next to Lovelady":

(https://i.postimg.cc/jqPX9Vyd/Wiegman-Davidson-frame-0008-SHELLEY.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

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