Author Topic: Why are Warren Report Defenders Trusting of testimony RE: TSBD to Texas Theatre?  (Read 814 times)

Offline Tom Scully

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The point is that a jury in a criminal trial would have learned of some of these details because defense attorneys would have investigated the backgrounds of witnesses as the WC, DPD, and FBI should have but did not.

I included the examples of a few other witnesses beyond those whose testimony is intended to fix Oswald physical presence and actions to specific places at specific times between the time he exited the TSBD and was spotted inside the Texas Theatre.

Mary Bledsoe, same first cousin as organized crime enforcer RD Matthews, may have given more uncorroborated (semi coherent) testimony than any other WC witness, possibly a result of damage from a recent stroke.

OV Campbell, Oswald employer whose wife, Clarice AKA Marie Webb was related to Mrs. Bledsoe's aunt, America Germany Webb's husband, Joe, married this 35 years younger woman when he was a 76 year old widower.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192067342/mary-elizabeth-campbell

Cecil McWatters, seemed to confuse Oswald with Roy Milton Jones, was employed by Dallas Transit whose owner's legal counsel was Roy Cohn and whose three brothers visited the Carousel Club earlier in 1963.

William W Whaley, moved his birth year back three years sometime after 1940,
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3071.msg115921.html#msg115921

...told Hugh Aynesworth he had earned a Navy Cross in combat over Iwo Jima, a 1945 WWII battle. His son knew who he was but neither of their obituaries includes the other.



Earline Roberts claimed DPD detective Potts and other DPD arrived about half an hour after O.H. Lee left the rooming house. Det. Potts testified they arrived at 3:00 pm. Her sister was WC witness Bertha Cheek.
Mrs. Robert's employer, Gladys Johnson testimony.:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../testimony/johnso_g.htm
"Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.
Mr. BALL. there some reason why you let her go?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.
298
Mr. BALL. What are they?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.."

Helen Markham, various "shortcomings," where to even begin ?

Virginia Davis, married a 26 year old at age 15, misrepresented her age as 16 to DPD in November, 1963 and to WC in April, 1964. She was born in June, 1948.

Sam Rogers, franchisee of Dobbs House where several of his employees claimed both Oswald and Tippit were frequent customers. The FBI didn't bother to mention that Roger's wife, Lillian, appears in the first frames of the Z film and persuaded her boss, Zapruder to make a trip home to properly equip himself with movie camera to capture the POTUS's motorcade on film.

Declan Ford, as California governor and former Oakland D.A., Warren knew Ford's prominent prosecutor father,
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15385-warren/?tab=comments#comment-274868

..and appointed Declan's brother, John, to the bench on a California high state court.
https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/FordJ.pdf

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ford_d.htm
"..Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel?
The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born?
Mr. FORD. Los Angeles.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there?
Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles and Glendale.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los Angeles?
Mr. FORD. Right.
The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did you say?
Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas.
The CHAIRMAN. I see..."

After Marina’s first WC testimony, she soon aligned herself with Declan Ford, brother of Gov. Warren appointed Judge, John Ford, and of Joseph Ford, former agent of
a small alien property recovery agency spearheaded by Joseph Carroll, Hoover’s former asst. and founding DIA chief, and FBI’s Leo Laughlin.
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=leo+laughlin+joseph+carroll

Isaac Don Levine, book agent of the memoirs of George Bouhe’s mother, see: https://books.google.com/books?id=46RZAAAAMAAJ&dq=don+levine+joseph+ford&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=bouhe
used Joseph Ford in an attempt to sign Marina to a book deal.:
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=don+levine+joseph+ford&tbm=bks

George DeMohrenschildt did not admit this in his WC testimony,

http://edwardjayepstein.com/diary/dem.htm
"..He had been, as far as I was concerned, a man of considerable mystery. Even his date of birth—"1911," on one passport, "1914" on another— was in doubt...What had brought De Mohrenschildt to the attention of the Warren Commission was Marina Oswald's testimony that De Mohrenschildt had rushed up the stairs of Oswald's house after he missed Walker and shouted, "Lee, how did you miss General Walker?" So he had to return from Haiti to testify. When questioned about this remark by the Commission, De Mohrenschildt shrugged it off as nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence: a "joke."
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 10:48:03 PM by Tom Scully »

Online Gerry Down

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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.

Offline Tom Scully

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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.

That is your response to numerous examples of claims of material witnesses, all under oath or quoted in FBI 302s? You posted what amounts to,

"Oh yeah? This guy later said something!"

VS
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
"...Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.
Mr. BELIN. In Texas?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. ..."

She replied while under oath, IOW while giving sworn testimony. She was in fact, fifteen...

Where can I find Gordon Arnold's relevant sworn testimony or his statements to FBI agents or memorialized in a DPD sworn affidavit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Arnold
"..On August 27, 1978, The Dallas Morning News published an article by Earl Golz alleging that ..."

https://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/wZz5A8TD/no-gordon-arnold
"GArnold was interviewed four times: Earl Golz 1978, Henry Hurt 1982, ....
...His story changed every time he told it in media interviews, but he never
had any interviews with the Dallas Police or FBI. Had he chose to have a
meeting with them his information it would be in private and confidential.
Instead he chose to tell his story on TV seen by a large audience in the
USA and United Kingdom. Now the killers know who he is, what he looks
like, the town he lives in, and how to find him..."
Gary Mack 1982, and Jim Marrs 1985.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 03:57:25 AM by Tom Scully »

Online Gerry Down

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That is your response to numerous examples of claims of material witnesses, all under oath or quoted in FBI 302s? You posted what amounts to,

"Oh yeah? This guy later said something!"

VS
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
"...Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.
Mr. BELIN. In Texas?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. ..."

She replied while under oath, IOW while giving sworn testimony. She was in fact, fifteen...

Where can I find Gordon Arnold's relevant sworn testimony or his statements to FBI agents or memorialized in a DPD sworn affidavit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Arnold
"..On August 27, 1978, The Dallas Morning News published an article by Earl Golz alleging that ..."

https://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/wZz5A8TD/no-gordon-arnold
"GArnold was interviewed four times: Earl Golz 1978, Henry Hurt 1982, ....
...His story changed every time he told it in media interviews, but he never
had any interviews with the Dallas Police or FBI. Had he chose to have a
meeting with them his information it would be in private and confidential.
Instead he chose to tell his story on TV seen by a large audience in the
USA and United Kingdom. Now the killers know who he is, what he looks
like, the town he lives in, and how to find him..."
Gary Mack 1982, and Jim Marrs 1985.

Beverly Oliver should have come across with her camera that didn't exist in 1963 and comforted Gordon.

Offline Tom Scully

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Beverly Oliver should have come across with her camera that didn't exist in 1963 and comforted Gordon.

Do you think it is out of the question that RD Matthews had anything to do with the emergence of Mary Bledsoe as a double scenario "witness" related to Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas and weeks later, on his "escape bus" from the TSBD?

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/79944838/ida-ann-senter
Ida Senter was the grandmother of J. Rawlston Germany and R.D. Matthews, and the mother-in-law of
Mary Bledsoe's uncle, Jewell Ralston Germany, R.D. Matthew's uncle through marriage to R.D.'s aunt,
Adelaide Senter Germany.:



Mary Bledsoe's grandfather :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/67531577/thomas-a-germany

Link to image of Mary Bledsoe's uncle, Jewell Ralston Germany, proving his parents were the
same as Mary's father's, Dr. John Germany.:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51424535272_fb549762a6_k.jpg

Mary Bledsoe's father :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/103030467/john-warren-germany
"..Surviving are his wife, a daughter Mrs. Mary Bledsoe, Dallas; two sons, Porter Germany, Houston, and Peter Germany, Ennis; two grandsons, four brothers, and three sisters."

Mary Bledsoe's step mother, who was younger than Mary and was a first cousin of Mary's ex-husband,
James Eulys Bledsoe :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/132359761/icie-elizabeth-germany

Mary Bledsoe's ex-husband :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5616547/james-eulys-bledsoe

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=browne&id=I9285
"Name: James Eulys BLEDSOE
Note: He was slim, 5'll" tall, and elegant with auburn hair and green eyes. He moved from TN with his family to TX around 1910. He divorced his first wife because while he travelled in his job for Southern Pacific Railroad, she played around and got pregnant. He gave the child his name, but the marriage was over. Died of a stroke."
Marriage 1 Mary Esther GERMANY b: 1896 in Chatfield, TX
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/TN-CHESTNUTRIDGECOUSINS/2013-04/1365004219
James married (1) Mary Esther GERMANY on 7 Oct 1913. The marriage
ended in divorce.Mary was born in 1896 in Chatfield, TX.

They had the following children:

+ 42 M i. James Eulys "Dick" BLEDSOE Jr. was born on
28 Aug 1914. He died about 1980.
43 M ii. Porter BLEDSOE was born about 1925.

He is a child of another man, not James Eulys BLEDSOE."

https://www.bynwr.com/articles/dames-ii-beverly-oliver-massegee
"Beverly Oliver Massegee...–What a relationship. A lot of fireworks, I take it.

Uh-huh. Yeah. But he was a very, very dangerous and conscienceless man. George had no conscience at all.

–That’s a scary statement. When did you realize he had no conscience?

When he and R.D. killed Tony Gennaro.

–In your book he just blows that murder off when you ask him about it.

Yeah. And we got married less than a week before in their home. Our wedding was in their home....
...
One of the things I get accused of being a liar about is the thing about Nixon and the Fountainbleau Hotel in Florida. And that’s because I’m misquoted. I did not see Nixon in the hotel. See my husband had been charged with receiving, and concealing a threatening conspiracy, and had been tried, convicted and sentenced to twenty years in the federal penitentiary. Two ten-year terms to run consecutively, and if they could get the conspiracy kicked out—found unconstitutional, which it is—then they would have to kick the other charge out, too, because they were tried together. And that’s what we were going to Florida to do, OK?

–Did he tell you he was meeting with Nixon?

Yes—well, he didn’t tell me that he was meeting with Nixon. I heard the phone conversations between he and RD. and the phone conversations. RD says, “According to [attorney] Joe Champion, if we can get these charges dropped, they’ll have to drop the other. Then you’ll be home free. You won’t have to go to the pen.”

That’s how it started out—“if we can get the money to Nixon’s people…” We didn’t talk about it on the plane. And it looked better for his wife to show up, for a lady to be there, than two men to show up alone in suits at the Fountainbleau.

Let me ask you this: if you, your wife and RD Matthews get on a plane to go see Nixon. In Florida. And you check in the Fountainbleau Hotel. Under an assumed name. And the next morning there’s a knock on the door George and RD come in they’re dressed in suits and ties and they’re gone for, I don’t remember how long but long enough to have had a meeting with somebody—they come back, we pack, we get on the plane we come home. The following October—the 29th—George was murdered. I never thought about that meeting ever again.

Then in January I got a letter. It was addressed to George, and it said that Supreme Court of the United States had expanding conspiracy to be unconstitutional, therefore the charges against George Albert McGann have been dropped.

So do I have a right to believe he met with Nixon?

–How did you feel seeing that letter?

Well, I knew what happened. Just one more thing down the line.

–Did you feel alone in the world at the time?

Except for the new friends that I had made at the church. They picked up the pieces and put me back together."
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 07:04:27 AM by Tom Scully »

Offline Robert Reeves

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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.

You may scoff at the idea Gordon Arnold was actually where he said he was and he saw what he said he did. His mother worked in the same building as Zapruder's clothing company. I haven't been able to locate exactly which company his mother worked for, she was a seamstress (may have even been a Zapruder employee). But Gordon Arnold was there waiting for his mother to finish work and meet him in the plaza to take pictures before he was posted. I have a transcript of the sixth floor museum's interview with Gordon Arnold's wife and kids. I can't post it here as sixth floor own the rights and do not want it posted in its entirety.

For whatever reasons, Gordon Arnold never went into detail about who it was he was waiting for and what he was actually doing around the grassy knoll area. But quite often these witnesses appear to have been asked very lame questions, or as Tom asks why, not even asked for their version of events in the official investigation.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 09:56:17 AM by Robert Reeves »

Online Gerry Down

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You may scoff at the idea Gordon Arnold was actually where he said he was and he saw what he said he did. His mother worked in the same building as Zapruder's clothing company. I haven't been able to locate exactly which company his mother worked for, she was a seamstress (may have even been a Zapruder employee). But Gordon Arnold was there waiting for his mother to finish work and meet him in the plaza to take pictures before he was posted. I have a transcript of the sixth floor museum's interview with Gordon Arnold's wife and kids. I can't post it here as sixth floor own the rights and do not want it posted in its entirety.

For whatever reasons, Gordon Arnold never went into detail about who it was he was waiting for and what he was actually doing around the grassy knoll area. But quite often these witnesses appear to have been asked very lame questions, or as Tom asks why, not even asked for their version of events in the official investigation.

Gordon Arnold's story would only make sense if he was on hallucigenics that day and imagined the story he told on "The men who killed Kennedy".

Offline Robert Reeves

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Gordon Arnold's story would only make sense if he was on hallucigenics that day and imagined the story he told on "The men who killed Kennedy".

Yeah and that is somewhat fascinating to me. From what his wife and kids had to say I am wondering myself why Gordon Arnold appears to have been depicted as very sensationalist but yet so little actual detail of his background/legitimacy.

Online Gerry Down

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Yeah and that is somewhat fascinating to me. From what his wife and kids had to say I am wondering myself why Gordon Arnold appears to have been depicted as very sensationalist but yet so little actual detail of his background/legitimacy.

It could be he was up at the dal-tex building corner during the assassination, though no picture of him there exists, and then years later he decided to put himself on the grassy knoll where all the researchers were focusing on.

Offline Robert Reeves

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Les:  Yes. The first time I really remember going into much detail about it at all was when Nigel Turner came through with The Men Who Killed Kennedy
documentary and was collecting stuff for that. And we, I remember talking to him about that, him deciding to go ahead and do that.
Gary: Did he talk to you about that first or to you?
Mary: He discussed it with me and said that the reason he decided to do it was because of his health problems, because he came so near to death and he said he
wanted some record of what he knew and he liked Nigel and felt that he was being truthful with him and would be truthful with him in everything. He said, “I would like to
go ahead and give him what knowledge I have of what happened.” And I said, “That’s fine.”

Gary: We’ll come back to that. Let’s, cause we’ve skipped ahead a little bit. It was the summer of 1978 when Gordon was on that jury and Howard Upchurch
talked to him. What happened next?

Mary: He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it. And I respected that and just.
Gary: Howard told his, told his story of meeting your husband to Earl
Golz, a reporter at The Dallas Morning News. At some point, and I was not involved at this point in time, but at some point Earl called Gordon and I assume Gordon then at
some point spoke to him and then told you what happened? What do you remember about all that?
Mary: I don’t remember very much at all. I just know that he was still very nervous about it, but he still talked to Mr. Golz and that’s really all I remember.
Les:  The impression that I got from Dad—and this was admittedly years later—but the impression I got from him was he was basically expecting to just be
discussing history. He was not expecting it to be published and, you know, thrown out there in the newspaper. And was rather upset by the fact that it was in the newspaper
because he still felt that there was the possibility…
Mary: Of a danger.
Les:  Of a retribution of some kind.
Gary: So when the story appeared, did he see it right away or did he hear about it later? What was his reactions when he learned, when he first learned the story
was in the newspaper?
Mary: He said he wished it had not happened because, there again, he was afraid of retribution. But he just kind of pushed it over to the side and ignored it.
Gary: Did he get any phone calls or letters?
Mary: Oh yes, oh yes, and he wouldn’t talk to anyone.
Gary: (0:30:05)  Did he get a lot of them?
Mary: Yes, he got quite a few right when it first came out. And when they would call and ask us, I even remember him telling someone they had the wrong
number, that he didn’t know anything about it.
Gary: So he never did any other interviews after Earl Golz until The Men Who Killed Kennedy?
Mary: Right.


Mary = Gordon Arnolds wife, Gary = Gary Mack, Les = Gordon Arnold's son

 

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