JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Scully on September 04, 2021, 10:23:50 PM
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The point is that a jury in a criminal trial would have learned of some of these details because defense attorneys would have investigated the backgrounds of witnesses as the WC, DPD, and FBI should have but did not.
I included the examples of a few other witnesses beyond those whose testimony is intended to fix Oswald physical presence and actions to specific places at specific times between the time he exited the TSBD and was spotted inside the Texas Theatre.
Mary Bledsoe, same first cousin as organized crime enforcer RD Matthews, may have given more uncorroborated (semi coherent) testimony than any other WC witness, possibly a result of damage from a recent stroke.
OV Campbell, Oswald employer whose wife, Clarice AKA Marie Webb was related to Mrs. Bledsoe's aunt, America Germany Webb's husband, Joe, married this 35 years younger woman when he was a 76 year old widower.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192067342/mary-elizabeth-campbell
Cecil McWatters, seemed to confuse Oswald with Roy Milton Jones, was employed by Dallas Transit whose owner's legal counsel was Roy Cohn and whose three brothers visited the Carousel Club earlier in 1963.
William W Whaley, moved his birth year back three years sometime after 1940,
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3071.msg115921.html#msg115921
...told Hugh Aynesworth he had earned a Navy Cross in combat over Iwo Jima, a 1945 WWII battle. His son knew who he was but neither of their obituaries includes the other.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51425035694_6235cc601a_b.jpg)
Earline Roberts claimed DPD detective Potts and other DPD arrived about half an hour after O.H. Lee left the rooming house. Det. Potts testified they arrived at 3:00 pm. Her sister was WC witness Bertha Cheek.
Mrs. Robert's employer, Gladys Johnson testimony.:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../testimony/johnso_g.htm
"Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.
Mr. BALL. there some reason why you let her go?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.
298
Mr. BALL. What are they?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.."
Helen Markham, various "shortcomings," where to even begin ?
Virginia Davis, married a 26 year old at age 15, misrepresented her age as 16 to DPD in November, 1963 and to WC in April, 1964. She was born in June, 1948.
Sam Rogers, franchisee of Dobbs House where several of his employees claimed both Oswald and Tippit were frequent customers. The FBI didn't bother to mention that Roger's wife, Lillian, appears in the first frames of the Z film and persuaded her boss, Zapruder to make a trip home to properly equip himself with movie camera to capture the POTUS's motorcade on film.
Declan Ford, as California governor and former Oakland D.A., Warren knew Ford's prominent prosecutor father,
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15385-warren/?tab=comments#comment-274868
..and appointed Declan's brother, John, to the bench on a California high state court.
https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/FordJ.pdf
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ford_d.htm
"..Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel?
The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born?
Mr. FORD. Los Angeles.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there?
Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles and Glendale.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los Angeles?
Mr. FORD. Right.
The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did you say?
Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas.
The CHAIRMAN. I see..."
After Marina’s first WC testimony, she soon aligned herself with Declan Ford, brother of Gov. Warren appointed Judge, John Ford, and of Joseph Ford, former agent of
a small alien property recovery agency spearheaded by Joseph Carroll, Hoover’s former asst. and founding DIA chief, and FBI’s Leo Laughlin.
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=leo+laughlin+joseph+carroll
Isaac Don Levine, book agent of the memoirs of George Bouhe’s mother, see: https://books.google.com/books?id=46RZAAAAMAAJ&dq=don+levine+joseph+ford&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=bouhe
used Joseph Ford in an attempt to sign Marina to a book deal.:
See: https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=MHmUVu-oLoOL-gXkzIyYDA#q=don+levine+joseph+ford&tbm=bks
George DeMohrenschildt did not admit this in his WC testimony,
http://edwardjayepstein.com/diary/dem.htm
"..He had been, as far as I was concerned, a man of considerable mystery. Even his date of birth—"1911," on one passport, "1914" on another— was in doubt...What had brought De Mohrenschildt to the attention of the Warren Commission was Marina Oswald's testimony that De Mohrenschildt had rushed up the stairs of Oswald's house after he missed Walker and shouted, "Lee, how did you miss General Walker?" So he had to return from Haiti to testify. When questioned about this remark by the Commission, De Mohrenschildt shrugged it off as nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence: a "joke."
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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.
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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.
That is your response to numerous examples of claims of material witnesses, all under oath or quoted in FBI 302s? You posted what amounts to,
"Oh yeah? This guy later said something!"
VS
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
"...Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.
Mr. BELIN. In Texas?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. ..."
She replied while under oath, IOW while giving sworn testimony. She was in fact, fifteen...
Where can I find Gordon Arnold's relevant sworn testimony or his statements to FBI agents or memorialized in a DPD sworn affidavit?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Arnold
"..On August 27, 1978, The Dallas Morning News published an article by Earl Golz alleging that ..."
https://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/wZz5A8TD/no-gordon-arnold
"GArnold was interviewed four times: Earl Golz 1978, Henry Hurt 1982, ....
...His story changed every time he told it in media interviews, but he never
had any interviews with the Dallas Police or FBI. Had he chose to have a
meeting with them his information it would be in private and confidential.
Instead he chose to tell his story on TV seen by a large audience in the
USA and United Kingdom. Now the killers know who he is, what he looks
like, the town he lives in, and how to find him..."
Gary Mack 1982, and Jim Marrs 1985.
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That is your response to numerous examples of claims of material witnesses, all under oath or quoted in FBI 302s? You posted what amounts to,
"Oh yeah? This guy later said something!"
VS
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_vc.htm
"...Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?
Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.
Mr. BELIN. In Texas?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen. ..."
She replied while under oath, IOW while giving sworn testimony. She was in fact, fifteen...
Where can I find Gordon Arnold's relevant sworn testimony or his statements to FBI agents or memorialized in a DPD sworn affidavit?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Arnold
"..On August 27, 1978, The Dallas Morning News published an article by Earl Golz alleging that ..."
https://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/wZz5A8TD/no-gordon-arnold
"GArnold was interviewed four times: Earl Golz 1978, Henry Hurt 1982, ....
...His story changed every time he told it in media interviews, but he never
had any interviews with the Dallas Police or FBI. Had he chose to have a
meeting with them his information it would be in private and confidential.
Instead he chose to tell his story on TV seen by a large audience in the
USA and United Kingdom. Now the killers know who he is, what he looks
like, the town he lives in, and how to find him..."
Gary Mack 1982, and Jim Marrs 1985.
Beverly Oliver should have come across with her camera that didn't exist in 1963 and comforted Gordon.
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Beverly Oliver should have come across with her camera that didn't exist in 1963 and comforted Gordon.
Do you think it is out of the question that RD Matthews had anything to do with the emergence of Mary Bledsoe as a double scenario "witness" related to Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas and weeks later, on his "escape bus" from the TSBD?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/79944838/ida-ann-senter
Ida Senter was the grandmother of J. Rawlston Germany and R.D. Matthews, and the mother-in-law of
Mary Bledsoe's uncle, Jewell Ralston Germany, R.D. Matthew's uncle through marriage to R.D.'s aunt,
Adelaide Senter Germany.:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51416696763_9e61ae11a7_b.jpg)
Mary Bledsoe's grandfather :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/67531577/thomas-a-germany
Link to image of Mary Bledsoe's uncle, Jewell Ralston Germany, proving his parents were the
same as Mary's father's, Dr. John Germany.:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51424535272_fb549762a6_k.jpg
Mary Bledsoe's father :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/103030467/john-warren-germany
"..Surviving are his wife, a daughter Mrs. Mary Bledsoe, Dallas; two sons, Porter Germany, Houston, and Peter Germany, Ennis; two grandsons, four brothers, and three sisters."
Mary Bledsoe's step mother, who was younger than Mary and was a first cousin of Mary's ex-husband,
James Eulys Bledsoe :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/132359761/icie-elizabeth-germany
Mary Bledsoe's ex-husband :
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5616547/james-eulys-bledsoe
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=browne&id=I9285
"Name: James Eulys BLEDSOE
Note: He was slim, 5'll" tall, and elegant with auburn hair and green eyes. He moved from TN with his family to TX around 1910. He divorced his first wife because while he travelled in his job for Southern Pacific Railroad, she played around and got pregnant. He gave the child his name, but the marriage was over. Died of a stroke."
Marriage 1 Mary Esther GERMANY b: 1896 in Chatfield, TX
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/TN-CHESTNUTRIDGECOUSINS/2013-04/1365004219
James married (1) Mary Esther GERMANY on 7 Oct 1913. The marriage
ended in divorce.Mary was born in 1896 in Chatfield, TX.
They had the following children:
+ 42 M i. James Eulys "Dick" BLEDSOE Jr. was born on
28 Aug 1914. He died about 1980.
43 M ii. Porter BLEDSOE was born about 1925.
He is a child of another man, not James Eulys BLEDSOE."
https://www.bynwr.com/articles/dames-ii-beverly-oliver-massegee
"Beverly Oliver Massegee...–What a relationship. A lot of fireworks, I take it.
Uh-huh. Yeah. But he was a very, very dangerous and conscienceless man. George had no conscience at all.
–That’s a scary statement. When did you realize he had no conscience?
When he and R.D. killed Tony Gennaro.
–In your book he just blows that murder off when you ask him about it.
Yeah. And we got married less than a week before in their home. Our wedding was in their home....
...
One of the things I get accused of being a liar about is the thing about Nixon and the Fountainbleau Hotel in Florida. And that’s because I’m misquoted. I did not see Nixon in the hotel. See my husband had been charged with receiving, and concealing a threatening conspiracy, and had been tried, convicted and sentenced to twenty years in the federal penitentiary. Two ten-year terms to run consecutively, and if they could get the conspiracy kicked out—found unconstitutional, which it is—then they would have to kick the other charge out, too, because they were tried together. And that’s what we were going to Florida to do, OK?
–Did he tell you he was meeting with Nixon?
Yes—well, he didn’t tell me that he was meeting with Nixon. I heard the phone conversations between he and RD. and the phone conversations. RD says, “According to [attorney] Joe Champion, if we can get these charges dropped, they’ll have to drop the other. Then you’ll be home free. You won’t have to go to the pen.”
That’s how it started out—“if we can get the money to Nixon’s people…” We didn’t talk about it on the plane. And it looked better for his wife to show up, for a lady to be there, than two men to show up alone in suits at the Fountainbleau.
Let me ask you this: if you, your wife and RD Matthews get on a plane to go see Nixon. In Florida. And you check in the Fountainbleau Hotel. Under an assumed name. And the next morning there’s a knock on the door George and RD come in they’re dressed in suits and ties and they’re gone for, I don’t remember how long but long enough to have had a meeting with somebody—they come back, we pack, we get on the plane we come home. The following October—the 29th—George was murdered. I never thought about that meeting ever again.
Then in January I got a letter. It was addressed to George, and it said that Supreme Court of the United States had expanding conspiracy to be unconstitutional, therefore the charges against George Albert McGann have been dropped.
So do I have a right to believe he met with Nixon?
–How did you feel seeing that letter?
Well, I knew what happened. Just one more thing down the line.
–Did you feel alone in the world at the time?
Except for the new friends that I had made at the church. They picked up the pieces and put me back together."
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CTers "witnesses" aren't much better. Gordon Arnold telling his story about the grassy knoll gunman crying on his shoulder before taking his film camera off him. Puleeese.
You may scoff at the idea Gordon Arnold was actually where he said he was and he saw what he said he did. His mother worked in the same building as Zapruder's clothing company. I haven't been able to locate exactly which company his mother worked for, she was a seamstress (may have even been a Zapruder employee). But Gordon Arnold was there waiting for his mother to finish work and meet him in the plaza to take pictures before he was posted. I have a transcript of the sixth floor museum's interview with Gordon Arnold's wife and kids. I can't post it here as sixth floor own the rights and do not want it posted in its entirety.
For whatever reasons, Gordon Arnold never went into detail about who it was he was waiting for and what he was actually doing around the grassy knoll area. But quite often these witnesses appear to have been asked very lame questions, or as Tom asks why, not even asked for their version of events in the official investigation.
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You may scoff at the idea Gordon Arnold was actually where he said he was and he saw what he said he did. His mother worked in the same building as Zapruder's clothing company. I haven't been able to locate exactly which company his mother worked for, she was a seamstress (may have even been a Zapruder employee). But Gordon Arnold was there waiting for his mother to finish work and meet him in the plaza to take pictures before he was posted. I have a transcript of the sixth floor museum's interview with Gordon Arnold's wife and kids. I can't post it here as sixth floor own the rights and do not want it posted in its entirety.
For whatever reasons, Gordon Arnold never went into detail about who it was he was waiting for and what he was actually doing around the grassy knoll area. But quite often these witnesses appear to have been asked very lame questions, or as Tom asks why, not even asked for their version of events in the official investigation.
Gordon Arnold's story would only make sense if he was on hallucigenics that day and imagined the story he told on "The men who killed Kennedy".
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Gordon Arnold's story would only make sense if he was on hallucigenics that day and imagined the story he told on "The men who killed Kennedy".
Yeah and that is somewhat fascinating to me. From what his wife and kids had to say I am wondering myself why Gordon Arnold appears to have been depicted as very sensationalist but yet so little actual detail of his background/legitimacy.
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Yeah and that is somewhat fascinating to me. From what his wife and kids had to say I am wondering myself why Gordon Arnold appears to have been depicted as very sensationalist but yet so little actual detail of his background/legitimacy.
It could be he was up at the dal-tex building corner during the assassination, though no picture of him there exists, and then years later he decided to put himself on the grassy knoll where all the researchers were focusing on.
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Les: Yes. The first time I really remember going into much detail about it at all was when Nigel Turner came through with The Men Who Killed Kennedy
documentary and was collecting stuff for that. And we, I remember talking to him about that, him deciding to go ahead and do that.
Gary: Did he talk to you about that first or to you?
Mary: He discussed it with me and said that the reason he decided to do it was because of his health problems, because he came so near to death and he said he
wanted some record of what he knew and he liked Nigel and felt that he was being truthful with him and would be truthful with him in everything. He said, “I would like to
go ahead and give him what knowledge I have of what happened.” And I said, “That’s fine.”
Gary: We’ll come back to that. Let’s, cause we’ve skipped ahead a little bit. It was the summer of 1978 when Gordon was on that jury and Howard Upchurch
talked to him. What happened next?
Mary: He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it. And I respected that and just.
Gary: Howard told his, told his story of meeting your husband to Earl
Golz, a reporter at The Dallas Morning News. At some point, and I was not involved at this point in time, but at some point Earl called Gordon and I assume Gordon then at
some point spoke to him and then told you what happened? What do you remember about all that?
Mary: I don’t remember very much at all. I just know that he was still very nervous about it, but he still talked to Mr. Golz and that’s really all I remember.
Les: The impression that I got from Dad—and this was admittedly years later—but the impression I got from him was he was basically expecting to just be
discussing history. He was not expecting it to be published and, you know, thrown out there in the newspaper. And was rather upset by the fact that it was in the newspaper
because he still felt that there was the possibility…
Mary: Of a danger.
Les: Of a retribution of some kind.
Gary: So when the story appeared, did he see it right away or did he hear about it later? What was his reactions when he learned, when he first learned the story
was in the newspaper?
Mary: He said he wished it had not happened because, there again, he was afraid of retribution. But he just kind of pushed it over to the side and ignored it.
Gary: Did he get any phone calls or letters?
Mary: Oh yes, oh yes, and he wouldn’t talk to anyone.
Gary: (0:30:05) Did he get a lot of them?
Mary: Yes, he got quite a few right when it first came out. And when they would call and ask us, I even remember him telling someone they had the wrong
number, that he didn’t know anything about it.
Gary: So he never did any other interviews after Earl Golz until The Men Who Killed Kennedy?
Mary: Right.
Mary = Gordon Arnolds wife, Gary = Gary Mack, Les = Gordon Arnold's son
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[moved this for better clarity:] Mary = Gordon Arnolds wife, Gary = Gary Mack, Les = Gordon Arnold's son
Les: Yes. The first time I really remember going into much detail about it at all was when Nigel Turner came through with The Men Who Killed Kennedy
documentary and was collecting stuff for that. And we, I remember talking to him about that, him deciding to go ahead and do that.
Gary: Did he talk to you about that first or to you?
Mary: He discussed it with me and said that the reason he decided to do it was because of his health problems, because he came so near to death and he said he
wanted some record of what he knew and he liked Nigel and felt that he was being truthful with him and would be truthful with him in everything. He said, “I would like to
go ahead and give him what knowledge I have of what happened.” And I said, “That’s fine.”
Gary: We’ll come back to that. Let’s, cause we’ve skipped ahead a little bit. It was the summer of 1978 when Gordon was on that jury and Howard Upchurch
talked to him. What happened next?
Mary: He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it. And I respected that and just.
Gary: Howard told his, told his story of meeting your husband to Earl
Golz, a reporter at The Dallas Morning News. At some point, and I was not involved at this point in time, but at some point Earl called Gordon and I assume Gordon then at
some point spoke to him and then told you what happened? What do you remember about all that?
Mary: I don’t remember very much at all. I just know that he was still very nervous about it, but he still talked to Mr. Golz and that’s really all I remember.
Les: The impression that I got from Dad—and this was admittedly years later—but the impression I got from him was he was basically expecting to just be
discussing history. He was not expecting it to be published and, you know, thrown out there in the newspaper. And was rather upset by the fact that it was in the newspaper
because he still felt that there was the possibility…
Mary: Of a danger.
Les: Of a retribution of some kind.
Gary: So when the story appeared, did he see it right away or did he hear about it later? What was his reactions when he learned, when he first learned the story
was in the newspaper?
Mary: He said he wished it had not happened because, there again, he was afraid of retribution. But he just kind of pushed it over to the side and ignored it.
Gary: Did he get any phone calls or letters?
Mary: Oh yes, oh yes, and he wouldn’t talk to anyone.
Gary: (0:30:05) Did he get a lot of them?
Mary: Yes, he got quite a few right when it first came out. And when they would call and ask us, I even remember him telling someone they had the wrong
number, that he didn’t know anything about it.
Gary: So he never did any other interviews after Earl Golz until The Men Who Killed Kennedy?
Mary: Right.
Golz found out about Arnold because he told his story to someone he just met. How does that jive with this statement from Mary: "He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it"
BTW, here's an 11/30/1963 letter from Arnold to Mary. Notice something missing?
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/32576/correspondence-between-gordon-arnold-and-mary-seymore-dated?ctx=7f67f5b2-ee69-41fc-9a40-80f3edc7bef2&idx=0
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Tom would be a champion at the Kevin Bacon game. As a JFK CT, however, he is many bricks short of a load.
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Tom would be a champion at the Kevin Bacon game. As a JFK CT, however, he is many bricks short of a load.
Yeah, Richard, results are no indication of competence... the futility of firing a howitzer at a "lone nut".
From author Joan Mellen's, "Our Man in Haiti, George DeMohrenschildt"
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427412799_526e320a98_c.jpg)
Students Don Ear Muffs to Shut Out Band Music
Daily Boston Globe – Aug 14, 1947
… rhumba music yesterday asked the Boston Licensing Board to shut down
the Hotel … one of 16 Tech students livings in the adjoining Sigma Chi
fraternity house … Other student were Thomas Devine of Rochester who
told of taking refuge in ..
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426664186_66919ffe18_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426916728_3675667b3b_c.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14783#relPageId=4&search=garry_coit
1. MISCELLANEOUS DOCUMENTS FROM AARC CIA COLLECTION, BOX 113, pg 288
Found in: Miscellaneous CIA Series
Garry Coit SR/CA
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14783#relPageId=4&search=garry_coit
2. PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON, 30-31 JAN, pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM : COIT
, GARRY, SR/CA TO : MFR TITLE : PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON, 30-31 JAN.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14786#relPageId=2&search=garry_coit
3. LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE, pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
INFORMATION AGENCY : CIA RECORD NUMBER : 104-10135-10092 RECORD SERIES : JFK AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM : COIT
, GARRY TO : PRISCILLA TITLE : LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE.
http://jfkforum.com/2017/10/01/are-we-there-yet-part-ii/
...Tom Scully on July 20, 2017, 07:42:12 PM
……..
Priscilla Johnson fully inserted herself into Marina’s life by late July, 1964, as Katya and Declan Ford did the hand off to Priscilla. Priscilla’s CIA handler was Garrison Garry Coit. Coit and Thomas Devine and 15 other Sigma Chi frat brothers cohabited in their frat house on MIT campus from fall, 1944. Coit went to Naval radio school in late Sept., Devine followed two weeks later.
Devine had nine contacts with DeMohrenschildt from late April, 1963 through late May. Devine and his close friend Joseph F Dryer, Jr. met separately with DeMohrenschildt and Clemard Charles on 25 April, 1963.
In late Sept., 1964, Priscilla put herself and Marina under the domicile and hospitality of her first cousin David C. Davenport, later described by Sam Ballen as a former CIA man. Davenport’s obit refers to his intelligence work.
In December, 1964, news and FBI reports describe Marina and Priscilla residing in a Sedona, AZ apartment, transported and escorted by Jerome Hastings, close friend of Davenport, driving Davenport’s Corvair with Alaska plates. In July, 1965, Davenport and Hastings are sued in New Mexico by Hasting’s step-daughter, JoAnn McAdams,
first cousin of presidential assistant Clark Clifford. The suit describes Hastings as then second husband of Clifford’s aunt, Marguerite Bowman McAdams Hasty. In 1966, Jerome Hasty legally changed his name in New Mexico to Hastings.
At this link, I have documented that in 1978 HSCA counsel asked Priscilla Johnson Macmillan why her book, “Marina and Lee” was delayed at least a dozen years. See http://archive.is/esTuB
One excuse Priscilla offered was that she had experienced a bad period in which her father was a concealed suicide.
The last person reported to see Priscilla’s father Stuart alive and who reported him as missing to Locust Valley, LI police was James A. Thomas, a cousin of Allen Dulles whose sister Eleanor Lansing Thomas was maid of honor in Clover Dulles’s wedding.
....
Tom Devine was a member of this class (1944) of 20 boys. His father, Adrian Devine chaired the school's board of directors. Devine was yearbook editor of the remaining ten graduating students. Peter Dryer, brother and kenaf farming partner in Haiti with his brother Joseph, for example, transferred to Choate Academy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427695965_5bdfa306e8_c.jpg)
After noticing Peter Dryer's name in Tom Devine's yearbook list of former classmates, I contacted
Joan Mellen, who had recently interviewed Peter's brother, Joseph F. Dryer, Jr.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426119877_2a56efe224_z.jpg)
Hawley Ward, at the bottom of the list above of Tom Devine's former classmates, was the brother
of the groom in this 1954 wedding party which also included Priscilla Johnson.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427715735_4d6a434262_c.jpg)
Hawley Ward left Devine's school to attend St. Paul's in Concord, NH and was a classmate there
of Priscilla's book editor, Marion Sims Wyeth, who had no problem giving Priscilla an extra decade to
complete her book while muzzling Marina... Hawley Ward was in editor Wyeth's wedding party, Priscilla had been in the wedding party (above) of Hawley Ward's brother...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427749735_175aa3a0c5_b.jpg)
And Priscilla's book editor M.S. Wyeth was in the wedding party of Cord Meyer's brother, along with the Meyer's brother's cousin, S. Willetts Meyer, who happened to be the best man in Ed Hooker's wedding in which George Bush was an usher. Hooker, if you recall, was George DeMohrenschildt's step-nephew and wildcat oil well drilling partner, as well as George Bush's roommate at the Andover, A.U.V. secret society house.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427551994_424e504ae4_b.jpg)
The CIA had to do handstands to make "all of this" appear to be unconnected, unremarkable....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=64&search=cogswell_and%20dryer
1. HSCA Report, Volume XII, pg 60
Found in: HSCA Appendix Volumes
"The information came from Jack Cogswell of Palm Beach.
According to Cogswell, he ran into Joseph Dryer, who is a stockbroker with Loeb & Rhodes & Co. in Palm Beach and Dryer offered informa- tion about George
de Mohrenschildt.(172) Dryer told Cogswell that when he knew de Mohrenshchildt in Haiti, de Mohrenschildt's behav- ior was "strange" and included following.."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217704#relPageId=178&search=cogswell_and%20dryer
1. Our Man in Haiti: George de Mohrenschildt and the CIA in the Nightmare Republic, pg 164
Found in: JFK Books
"CIA documents reveal that Cogswell was utilized by both the Agency and the FBI.
Cogswell became a source of intelligence for Joe Dryer. In particular, Cogswell kept an eye on de Mohrenschildt Mohrenschildt.
Dryer was not certain whether CIA placed Cogswell in Haiti or whether he had gone there voluntarily, but it was obvious that he was working for someone"
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427568079_c9346c3339_c.jpg)
https://paw.princeton.edu/memorial/charles-leslie-rice-jr-’41
Memorial Charles Leslie Rice Jr. '41 - Princeton Alumni Weekly |
"...Following the war, Dean Mathey '12, Princeton's patron-saint trustee, benefactor, and Wall St. magician, recruited Les as his protege.
Having learned much from Mathey at Empire Trust Co., Les set out on his own. He was president and CEO of Gulf States Land & Industries, Inc., ..."
Imagine being John McCloy on the WC, especially in the executive sessions...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426081462_2fe03ec16e_c.jpg)
Tom Devine had "a hook" even John McCloy did not enjoy... his grandmother
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102334174/louise-wolcott-dodge
...was a first cousin of Senator Jay (John D. IV) Rockefeller's grandfather...
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/126976919/blanchette-ferry-rockefeller
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427859580_476a8a1c17_b.jpg)
http://jfkforum.com/2017/10/01/are-we-there-yet-part-ii/
...1968 …
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5939652/
Troth Is Announced Of Miss Williams, Henry C. Hurt Jr. Mr. and Mrs. George … Margaret Nolting, to Henry Charles Hurt Jr., of Kennebunkport, Maine, son of Mr…..
In 1977, Henry Hurt, son in law of brother of Freeport Sulphur chairman, Langbourne M. Williams Jr…… informs Billy Joe Lord that Jim Beamiss, actually fitting the description of Fitzgerald Bemiss, is exerting pressure to result in Lord granting an interview to Henry Hurt and Readers Digest. https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=65388323
Fitzgerald Bemiss was the son of Prescott Bush Kennebunkport friend and neighbor Sam Bemiss. Sam’s mom was a sister of Langbourne M. Williams Jr’s grandfather. Sam Bemiss mother.:
....
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The point is that a jury in a criminal trial would have learned of some of these details because defense attorneys would have investigated the backgrounds of witnesses as the WC, DPD, and FBI should have but did not.
You give the attorneys more credit than they deserve. They were no better than the cops.
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Some interesting research but what would have been his motive and how does it impact his testimony?
Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?
The taxi driver abandoned his small son, for life, who carried his name
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
...and he was bold enough to correct the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an insignificant detail. The jury is still out as to whether he told Dallas reporters he was an awarded WWII combat hero, but in fact, was not.
Not 25 miles to Lewisville, but precisely 26, not 36 years driving a taxi, but precisely 37. :
http://web.archive.org/web/20190811175231/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm
...Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?
Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.
Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your residence?
Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north of Dallas.
....
The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven....
The "keeper" of Whaley's online memorial has created and maintains over 25,000 such web pages. He replied in just a couple of days to the evidence I shared with him supporting the incorrect date of birth...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51463685902_fc5036f8bc_h.jpg)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51465186459_0065f0fcba_b.jpg)
Published June 26, 1908, refers to "ten pound boy" arriving at the home of O.W. Whaley on the prior Friday evening, AKA, June 19, 1908. The article image is now in the image gallery of the Whaley grave page.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2021/248/13730776_302fa279-6eca-4833-80c2-a6ba4bc613ad.jpeg)
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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?
Sure, but if you keep digging I bet you will find somerhing on every witness in this case and then what?
Doesn't affect his testimony as such, and assuming that's where our focus should be, It"s much more powerful to pick him apart by using his own testimony.
Like dropping Oswald off at an intersection that doesn't exist, if you see what I mean?!
Otto, I see what you mean, and your POV should be enough, but in practice it leaves too much "wiggle room" for LNs or a criminal prosecutor in 1964, for example, competent criminal defense attorney supported by a competent investigator, cross examining a prosecution witness like William W. Whaley, who was giving uncorroborated (like Mary Bledsoe and Earline Roberts) testimony.
Defense Atty: You say you've been driving a taxi in Dallas for 37 years. You look remarkably young for such lengthy experience, just how old are you?
Whaley, I'll turn 59, in June.
Defense Atty: Mr. Whaley, I have here a copy of your 1940 military draft registration. It is filled out in your own hand, correct? Why does the date of birth you wrote then, indicate you are three years younger today than the current age you just claimed you are?
....
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25889-why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-402782
David Von Pein - Posted July 13, 2019
...A Whaley Addendum....
Based on William Whaley's 11/23/63 FBI interview, I think it's pretty clear that Whaley originally did think he had taken Oswald all the way to the 500 block of North Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63. Whaley told the FBI on November 23rd that he "took the young man to the 500 block of Beckley Street".
But I think the key to knowing that Whaley was mistaken about the "500 block" is the fact that he always maintained—even in his first FBI interview the day after Oswald rode in his taxicab—that the fare for Oswald's cab ride was exactly "95 cents".
And Whaley's 11/22/63 manifest (or trip sheet) also confirms the fare for the Greyhound-to-Beckley trip as being 95 cents.
And we can see from the reconstructed cab rides that a trip in Whaley's cab that starts at the Greyhound bus station and ends at the intersection of Neely & Beckley would, in fact, be 95 cents....
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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?
The taxi driver abandoned his small son, for life, who carried his name
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
...and he was bold enough to correct the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an insignificant detail. The jury is still out as to whether he told Dallas reporters he was an awarded WWII combat hero, but in fact, was not.
Not 25 miles to Lewisville, but precisely 26, not 36 years driving a taxi, but precisely 37. :The "keeper" of Whaley's online memorial has created and maintains over 25,000 such web pages. He replied in just a couple of days to the evidence I shared with him supporting the incorrect date of birth...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51463685902_fc5036f8bc_h.jpg)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51465186459_0065f0fcba_b.jpg)
Published June 26, 1908, refers to "ten pound boy" arriving at the home of O.W. Whaley on the prior Friday evening, AKA, June 19, 1908. The article image is now in the image gallery of the Whaley grave page.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2021/248/13730776_302fa279-6eca-4833-80c2-a6ba4bc613ad.jpeg)
You are really going on and on about Whaley's credibility based over a discrepancy as to his date of birth? Suggesting his testimony about giving Oswald a ride should be discounted because he got his year of birth wrong? Maybe it's difficult to imagine for an information hoarder but in the early 20th century it is not inconceivable for someone not to know their exact birth year. They certainly didn't have access to the Internet. Records were lost. Memories were subject to error. And it didn't really matter that much to anyone without a compulsion disorder.
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You are really going on and on about Whaley's credibility based over a discrepancy as to his date of birth? Suggesting his testimony about giving Oswald a ride should be discounted because he got his year of birth wrong? Maybe it's difficult to imagine for an information hoarder but in the early 20th century it is not inconceivable for someone not to know their exact birth year. They certainly didn't have access to the Internet. Records were lost. Memories were subject to error. And it didn't really matter that much to anyone without a compulsion disorder.
An "information hoarder"? Whaley himself and the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 U.S. Census records and these examples provided by Whaley himself, as well as his family's bible were remarkably consistent supporting what is inarguably Whaley's true birth year, 1940. Something happened after 1940, and history has a right to know, or at least reflect a change from 1908 to 1905 that took place.
His mom outlived him by eighteen months. She and the Whaley family bible were available, vs the
post 1940 process of creating a new birth year.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/53993969/lona-haynes-whaley
Published 1935 LINK, Phillips Family History, pg. 127 (https://www.google.com/search?q=phillips+family+history+william+wayne+whaley+1908&client=opera&hs=ltW&sxsrf=AOaemvK4P47EKiItvnAiSjTys7SKDrZIeg:1631626113316&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMv4_3yP7yAhUcTTABHXqAAIgQ_AUoAXoECAEQCw&biw=1089&bih=650)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51474968140_ede9392029_b.jpg)
IOW, there was no documentation to support such a change, but Whaley's SS record, death certificate, and presumably the Texas driver's license he was carrying when he was suddenly killed all reflect the revised birth year.
It is important because his testimony, as was that of Earline Roberts and Mary Bledsoe, was uncorroborated.
Whaley's parents married in 1907. His mother was 19 in 1908. One CT zealot reacted to these facts years ago by making up a scenario in which Whaley "switched" to 1908 to shield his family from embarrassment over his actual "out of wedlock" 1905 birth, when his conception would have to have been when his mother was just 15 years old.
But that wasn't what happened, Whaley was born in 1908 at least until 1940, them switched to 1905.
That requires some effort since a consistent record supporting 1908 already existed and no evidence supporting 1905.
1908 to 1931 = 23 years....
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51474622339_5f595339e5_b.jpg)
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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?
The taxi driver abandoned his small son, for life, who carried his name
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
...and he was bold enough to correct the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an insignificant detail. The jury is still out as to whether he told Dallas reporters he was an awarded WWII combat hero, but in fact, was not.
Not 25 miles to Lewisville, but precisely 26, not 36 years driving a taxi, but precisely 37. :The "keeper" of Whaley's online memorial has created and maintains over 25,000 such web pages. He replied in just a couple of days to the evidence I shared with him supporting the incorrect date of birth...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51463685902_fc5036f8bc_h.jpg)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51465186459_0065f0fcba_b.jpg)
Published June 26, 1908, refers to "ten pound boy" arriving at the home of O.W. Whaley on the prior Friday evening, AKA, June 19, 1908. The article image is now in the image gallery of the Whaley grave page.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2021/248/13730776_302fa279-6eca-4833-80c2-a6ba4bc613ad.jpeg)
Perhaps Whaley changed the date of his birth to so he could draw a pension that required that he be three years older than his actual age ????
At any rate.... This seems to indicate that Whaley was less than an honest man.... And the tale that he fabricated about transporting the assassin to Oak Cliff so that he could have his "5 minutes of fame " certainly is nothing but a figment of his warped mind.
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Perhaps Whaley changed the date of his birth to so he could draw a pension that required that he be three years older than his actual age ????
At any rate.... This seems to indicate that Whaley was less than an honest man.... And the tale that he fabricated about transporting the assassin to Oak Cliff so that he could have his "5 minutes of fame " certainly is nothing but a figment of his warped mind.
It's very silly to speculate about Whaley's motivations and then extrapolate from a discrepancy about his birth year that he fabricated a cab ride for Oswald. Particularly when Whaley kept records that supports his account. Classic rabbit hole nonsense.
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Whaley's records precludes Oswald from being his passenger.
Only a deranged Nutter would claim that.
So what's new?
Whaley's records precludes Oswald from being his passenger.
Hey c'mon Otto.... Yer stealin my rebuttal again... :D
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Walt, sorry, I was lurking... Thumb1:
Well let's flesh this reply out a bit...
Whaley's records precludes Oswald from being his passenger.
Whaley's trip manifest indicates that picked up the man who was wearing a Blue jacket and trousers at 12:30 and delivered that man to 500 N. Beckley at 12:45.
The WC investigators determined that Lee was at the TSBD at 12:33 and ten walked east on Elm street and boarded a bus, but the bus became stuck in traffic and Lee got off the bus at 12:44. He then walked to the Greyhound bus station taxi stand and hired a taxi ( time 12:48 ) to take him to the rooming house.
So Lee was just beginning his taxi ride three minutes after Whaley discharged the man who was dressed entirely differently than Lee Oswald.
So even if Whaley made the entries after the trip and merely separated the trips into 15 minute intervals Lee wasn't even in a taxi at 12:33 when Whaley estimated his passenger climbed into his cab..... And Whaley had already discharged his passenger at the time that Lee was just getting into a taxi.
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An "information hoarder"? Whaley himself and the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 U.S. Census records and these examples provided by Whaley himself, as well as his family's bible were remarkably consistent supporting what is inarguably Whaley's true birth year, 1940. Something happened after 1940, and history has a right to know, or at least reflect a change from 1908 to 1905 that took place.
His mom outlived him by eighteen months. She and the Whaley family bible were available, vs the
post 1940 process of creating a new birth year.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/53993969/lona-haynes-whaley
Published 1935 LINK, Phillips Family History, pg. 127 (https://www.google.com/search?q=phillips+family+history+william+wayne+whaley+1908&client=opera&hs=ltW&sxsrf=AOaemvK4P47EKiItvnAiSjTys7SKDrZIeg:1631626113316&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMv4_3yP7yAhUcTTABHXqAAIgQ_AUoAXoECAEQCw&biw=1089&bih=650)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51474968140_ede9392029_b.jpg)
IOW, there was no documentation to support such a change, but Whaley's SS record, death certificate, and presumably the Texas driver's license he was carrying when he was suddenly killed all reflect the revised birth year.
It is important because his testimony, as was that of Earline Roberts and Mary Bledsoe, was uncorroborated.
Whaley's parents married in 1907. His mother was 19 in 1908. One CT zealot reacted to these facts years ago by making up a scenario in which Whaley "switched" to 1908 to shield his family from embarrassment over his actual "out of wedlock" 1905 birth, when his conception would have to have been when his mother was just 15 years old.
But that wasn't what happened, Whaley was born in 1908 at least until 1940, them switched to 1905.
That requires some effort since a consistent record supporting 1908 already existed and no evidence supporting 1905.
1908 to 1931 = 23 years....
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51474622339_5f595339e5_b.jpg)
Why do your sourced discrepancies with these issues elecit such consternation among the faithful readers, Tom? Suspicious bloodlines shall be your redemption ten years from now. I, for one, find them fascinating. Difficult to follow, but aren't most 'treasure hunts'?
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Why do your sourced discrepancies with these issues elecit such consternation among the faithful readers, Tom? Suspicious bloodlines shall be your redemption ten years from now. I, for one, find them fascinating. Difficult to follow, but aren't most 'treasure hunts'?
I fail to see the relevance of Whaley changing his birth date..... How is that related to the tale about how he had transported Lee Oswald to Oakcliff that afternoon..... The changing of his birth date certainly does seem to establish that Whaley was a bold and blatant liar, so in that aspect it serves to cast serious doubt on his statements about transporting Lee Oswald to Oakcliff that afternoon.