Oswald: No power lunch

[Martin Weidmann]

His whole theory evaporated with the testimonies of Sgt Harkness and Det Sawyer. It was the end of the whole question of the timeline of Adams and Styles. He is just having a hard time with it. He will have to find something new to harp on.

More noise from the alternate reality.

Mitch Todd's speculation about the testimony of Harkness and Sawyer became utterly irrelevant with the testimony of officer Barnett;

Mr. Liebeler. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett. I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett. Yes, sir.

<>

Mr. Liebeler. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett. Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.

That blew Todd's "lock down by Harkness" theory completely out of the water.

It might be wise to actually know the case before you start making silly comments.

Btw I'm still waiting for your alternate timeline, which includes all the known facts but shows that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor later than they said. Without producing one you really haven't got much of anything.

[Jack Nessan]

More noise from the alternate reality.

Mitch Todd's speculation about the testimony of Harkness and Sawyer became utterly irrelevant with the testimony of officer Barnett;

Mr. Liebeler. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. Barnett. I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. Barnett. Yes, sir.

<>

Mr. Liebeler. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. Barnett. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. Barnett. Not a thing.
Mr. Liebeler. What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. Barnett. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.

That blew Todd's "lock down by Harkness" theory completely out of the water.

It might be wise to actually know the case before you start making silly comments.

Btw I'm still waiting for your alternate timeline, which includes all the known facts but shows that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor later than they said. Without producing one you really haven't got much of anything.

Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.

This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.

Mr. Liebeler.
You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwes

Anytime on the riddle.

[Martin Weidmann]

Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.

This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.

Mr. Liebeler.
You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwes

Anytime on the riddle.

Actually it does prove some things, just not what you think. He was back in front of the building within 2 1/2 minutes of the last shot. He should have seen Adams and Styles leave the back of the building, according to your estimates.

No. This only shows that you don't understand my timeline and estimates. Adams and Styles were out of the building in less than a minute after the shots. They were gone by the time Barnett (who was mainly watching the fire escape on Houston) actually got to the back of the building and saw the cops, including the one who probably talked to Adams and told her to return to the building.

This actually proves they left later, around 12:35+ and then ran through the building to encounter Harkness and the building being shut down at 12:36 Good going, producing Barnett's testimony.

Complete BS. It proves nothing of the kind. If Adams and Styles had stayed on the 4th floor for 5 minutes or more after the shots they would have seen Truly and Baker come up, as Garner did, and they could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady, who entered the building some 5 minutes after the shots. Also, if the TSBD was already being locked down, when they came down, the cops would have stopped them when they tried to leave at the loading dock. And that, of course, did not happen.

What Barnett's testimony actually shows is that there were police officers at the back of the TSBD within two minutes after the shots, and probably even sooner, which makes it perfectly plausible for Adams and Styles to have run into one of those cops, on their way to the front of the building. Even more so, as Shelley and Lovelady were also at roughly the same location, west of the building, where Adams did actually see them.

Harkness wasn't even close to the back of the TSBD, at that time, so the assumption that Adams and Styles ran into Harkness is completely flawed and does not fit into a plausible timeline that actually works.

But thank you for showing us why you can not produce an alternate timeline that covers all the available evidence. You just can't make it work with your alternate reality.

[Dan O'meara]

Mr. Barnett  - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building.

Barnett's sergeant is Sergeant Howard.
Barnett has returned to near his original position and Howard approaches him from "north of Houston".
Presumably Howard is one of the officers Barnett sees behind the TSBD.
I can't find any statements from Sergeant Howard.
Inexplicably he is not asked to give testimony before the WC.

[Martin Weidmann]

Mr. Barnett  - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building.

Barnett's sergeant is Sergeant Howard.
Barnett has returned to near his original position and Howard approaches him from "north of Houston".
Presumably Howard is one of the officers Barnett sees behind the TSBD.
I can't find any statements from Sergeant Howard.
Inexplicably he is not asked to give testimony before the WC.

Good observation.

It wouldn't have taken Barnett more than 30 seconds to run from the back of the building to the corner of Elm and Houston, where No. 8 is located on CE 354   https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_354.pdf

Which means there were cops at the back of the TSBD within 2 minutes after the shots and Howard may well have been one of them. Who most certainly wasn't one of them was Harkness, who did not get there until 12.36 at the earliest. By roughly that time, Styles had already re-entered the TSBD through the front entrance.

[Dan O'meara]

The above image is a crop from Willis 8
The lady in the red circle is Sandra Styles.
The lady in the yellow circle is Vicki Adams.
These identifications have been made by Linda Zambanini
If correct, it would be useful to try and nail down when this pic was taken.

[Dan O'meara]

This is all a bit sketchy at the moment but it might be a way of determining how quickly Adams and Styles were at the front of the TSBD.

Below is another crop from Willis 8.
The red arrow highlights an area of the TSBD building visible through the crowd.



It seems to me we should be able to see Sawyer's car here, which he parked in front of the TSBD entrance. I believe the pic below shows Sawyer arriving at the TSBD, note how close to the front entrance his car is parked:



If Zambanini's identification of Adams and Styles is correct...
If it is Sawyer's car arriving at the TSBD...
If Sawyer's car us not visible in Willis 8 when it should be...

...then Willis 8 shows Adams and Styles outside the steps of the TSBD before Sawyer arrives there @ 12:34 pm.

I told you it was sketchy.

[Dan O'meara]

I found this pic by Skaggs (I must once again thank Robin Unger for his invaluable contribution to JFK research)



It appears to have been taken shortly after the Willis pic and now shows, what I presume to be, Sawyer's car parked outside the front of the TSBD entrance. Many of the same people are in this pic as in Willis including the woman identified as Vicki Adams (red arrow).