Crease in SN box

[Colin Crow]

Thanks Charles, I gather it is the mark on top of the box at the bottom of the photo. This is consistent with what I think the original thoughts were regarding shooting before the reappearance of Day after 3pm.

I believe that Mooney's testimony was about a "slight crease" and Day's testimony was about something different, a "scar." The cardboard that was used in the boxes is basically constructed in three distinct layers, an outer layer, a middle layer (that is corrugated) and an inner layer. It appears to me that the "scar" was caused by a tearing of the outer layer away from the middle, corrugated layer. And the missing piece of the outer layer exposed the corrugated layer. In my opinion, this was most likely caused in handling the box, perhaps a corner of another box when stacking them, or something similar to that.

It is difficult to tell from the photos, but the elongated darkened area between the arrows that I placed in this photo could be what Mooney was describing as a "slight crease." And it would be in the proper direction for a shot down Elm Street.





I also think that it is most likely that the boxes were full of books and therefore would not crease any more than just slightly when the box was hit with a fist or the rifle. Here is a photo showing the secret service reenactment. You have to use your imagination a little to envision how the rifle was held.



In my opinion, people who thought that he would have shot as the limo approached the TSBD probably had never gone through infantry training with the USMC. A military style ambush takes into account surprise, concealment, and escape afterwards, among other things. Firing upon the approach would have been a big mistake because it would most likely have exposed his position while the secret service agents were looking in that direction. And return fire from the SS would have been the most likely result.

I don't know what you are referring to when you say the window strip. Please explain. Thanks

Sorry for the late reply Charles, have been away for a bit. Let me preface this with what I am about to write is from memory only. I have briefly attempted to find the relevant photos/documents, I know they exist, I just cant lay my hands on them. I am sure other members (eg JohnM) will remember the debate around the wooden window strip from some time back.

We have the following information to work with;

Mooney's discovery of the SN and his thoughts that the mark on the box indicated the direction of fire by the rifle.

"I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from."

Ball then asks Mooney

Mr. BALL - Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on 509?
Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing--

Also "to the right" of the boxes when looking out the window were the three shells. I suggest that at that time, those observing the scene, would logically believe that the assassin fired the gun in a SE direction, ie. as JFK approached.

This notion was confirmed by Day in the quote supplied earlier.

Mr. DAY. There was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. I noticed that at the time. I thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. I later decided that was in the wrong direction. It was not the recoil of the gun but I did notice this scar on the box.

Day's movements/actions on the 22nd can be summarized as; About 1.15 arriving at the SN and performing initial analysis of the shells in the SN with Sims after Studebaker photographed the SN from 2 angles. Soon after, the rifle was at found about 1.20 or so and so Day and Studebaker were called by Fritz went to photograph that scene and Day performed initial analysis of the rifle. Day disappeared to take the rifle to the crime lab about 2pm. Studebaker returned to the SN to continue processing. Day returned to the TSBD about 3pm. in the meantime, Studebaker, as part of his activities, removed a wooden strip from a window for further processing because it was believed that the assassin might have touched it. There is documentation of arrival of a wooden strip at City Hall at 3.20pm, along with the paper wrapper, lunch bag and chicken bones and bottle. These items were transported by Montgomery and Johnson who left the building with them at 3pm. Along with the lunch contents the strip was not given to Vince Drain that night to be sent to the FBI.

The description of this strip was that it was 30" long, later descriptions of was that it was 40". How could there be this discrepancy in length? I believe the answer is that the initial impression was that of a shooter was positioned to the right of the boxes and so the strip that was removed was from the "right-side" window. There is a photo of the SN taken that afternoon that shows this "right" window with the strip removed. I believe it either broke during removal (or was already broken) and about 30" in length. After it was realized by Day that the shots were fired in a SW facing direction and the shooter was sitting to the left of the stacked boxes against the window, the "left" strip was removed intact for processing and was 40" in length.

[John Mytton]

( If picture not showing: https://ibb.co/Fqm637B )

The rifle as it would be resting on the trigger-guard-housing in the crease. Maybe the left hand could pin the top of the rifle but not such that the scope was blocked.

I did not expect it to be almost working for the head shot. The Carcano rifle in this model may not clear the edge of the carton (Box A) because my model is inaccurate. I would not dismiss the possibility based on this model. A real-life Carcano and box replica may work.

For both shots, the Carcano clears the box resting on the window sill.

 





JohnM

[Jerry Freeman]

Don’t give up your day job.

But he doesn't have one.

[Royell Storing]

( If picture not showing: https://ibb.co/Fqm637B )

The rifle as it would be resting on the trigger-guard-housing in the crease. Maybe the left hand could pin the top of the rifle but not such that the scope was blocked.

I did not expect it to be almost working for the head shot. The Carcano rifle in this model may not clear the edge of the carton (Box A) because my model is inaccurate. I would not dismiss the possibility based on this model. A real-life Carcano and box replica may work.

For both shots, the Carcano clears the box resting on the window sill.

    Again. If the boxes in the photo depict their position when shots were fired, what was the purpose of the box leaning on the window sill?

[Royell Storing]

The window sill box made "Box A" (the highest box that the rifle might have rested on) more stable by preventing "Box A" from sliding forward.

Geeze. Now I understand why there haven't been many sniper assassinations in Europe.

        We continue hearing that the boxes stacked in the sniper's nest were allegedly FULL of books. This would make those boxes exceptionally heavy and free from sliding. This is also why photos of the sniper's nest area show a dolly close by for the moving of those Heavy Boxes. A rifle resting atop that window sill box would explain eyewitnesses being able to see a "pipe" or rifle barrel in that slightly opened window.

[Walt Cakebread]

( If picture not showing: https://ibb.co/Fqm637B )

The rifle as it would be resting on the trigger-guard-housing in the crease. Maybe the left hand could pin the top of the rifle but not such that the scope was blocked.

I did not expect it to be almost working for the head shot. The Carcano rifle in this model may not clear the edge of the carton (Box A) because my model is inaccurate. I would not dismiss the possibility based on this model. A real-life Carcano and box replica may work.

For both shots, the Carcano clears the box resting on the window sill.

 https://ibb.co/Fqm637B

These drawings are ludicrous....They reveal a desperate attempt to make the official scenario believable.  Referring to the first drawing .... The fore grip of the rifle is not sitting on the box...it appears to be sunk into the cardboard of the box...This needed to be done to allow the trigger guard / Magazine to contact the top of the box.
 The distance from the trigger to the butt plate of a carcano is 13 inches.....  Which means that a shooter sitting on a box to the rear and  holding this rifle would be leaning forward and his chest would be nearly touching the box and his shoulder would be about 30 inches from the floor.... but the rile butt would be about 38 inches from the floor ( IOW  the rifle butt would be above the man's shoulder.  And he could not place his left hand beneath the fore grip of the rifle.)

I don't know why I bothered to respond to such a ridiculous post.....

 

[Walt Cakebread]

No "attempt" from me to make some "official scenario believable". I'm just showing the physical possibility in one particular 3D model. Let the chips fall where they may.

You, however, seem a bit desperate to disprove anything the WC or HSCA claimed in regards to a gunman being at the SN.

The Z223 shot would not work with the crease. Or (maybe a better term) the gouge.



Always making it seem impossible or requiring some "Got Talent" feat of contortion.

In the scenario, the weight of the rifle would be on "Box A". Pinning the rifle down with the left hand might be more feasible. OK, now you'll claim the scope would be blocked.

May I compare you to H.L. Mencken, Art Buchwald and Harold Weisberg? You're drawn to the absurdity of things. In this topic, the most absurd thing would be that the gouge was caused by the gunman. Look at what's the President today. Life abounds with absurdities and contradictions.

Always making it seem impossible or requiring some "Got Talent" feat of contortion.

Yes, You're right... A man could not contort his body to fire the rifle as you've depicted in the drawing....