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Author Topic: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?  (Read 285673 times)

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #371 on: February 04, 2020, 04:50:08 PM »
It would have been stamped void, or cancelled, if he received it afterwards.  And, he had a new, valid passport.
It apparently was (if this is the same passport). This below is page #1. Why wouldn't he keep the old passport? It had stamps of his various visits to Europe. He could keep it as a memento or to show to others. Which is what two witnesses said he did.

Photos of the rest of the pages, several also having "canceled" on them, are here: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/



« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 04:52:30 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #372 on: February 04, 2020, 06:14:54 PM »
It apparently was (if this is the same passport). This below is page #1. Why wouldn't he keep the old passport? It had stamps of his various visits to Europe. He could keep it as a memento or to show to others. Which is what two witnesses said he did.

Photos of the rest of the pages, several also having "canceled" on them, are here: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/



Thanks.
Yes, Oswald could have received old passport.  Could have shown to Australian women.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #373 on: February 04, 2020, 08:59:54 PM »
Thanks.
Yes, Oswald could have received old passport.  Could have shown to Australian women.
Quote
Could have shown
But why?...unless it was staged as an elaborate put on to remember him by. [**Patricia Winston and Pam Mumford were the ladies]
Why claim to be from Fort Worth? Why not from Dallas or New Orleans?
Quote
G. ROBERT BLAKEY, Chief Counsel, House Assassinations Committee: The suspicion was that Oswald didn't make it at all, that there was an impostor attempting to frame him in Mexico City. Had that been established, it would indicate a sophisticated effort to frame Oswald, which would immediately draw attention to American intelligence.
Quote
RICHARD HELMS, Former Director CIA: It's my recollection that at the time of Oswald's presence in Mexico City, there was something wrong with some of the cameras we were using and we were trying to fix it. But the fact remains that there are no photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald taken while he was in Mexico City at that time, and I can't explain 100 percent why not.
Video**  https://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/items@:39924
Why did the traveler recommend the Hotel Cuba where he would not stay?

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #375 on: February 05, 2020, 12:13:16 AM »
Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:

1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk,  wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."  Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.

It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.

2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.

3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.

4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.

To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.

5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:

LBJ:  Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

Hoover:  No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name.  That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.

6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2020, 01:58:58 PM »
Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:

1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk,  wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."  Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.

It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.

2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.

3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.

4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.

To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.

5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:

LBJ:  Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

Hoover:  No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name.  That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.

6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.


Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.


LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:

Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page

Page 2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=362&tab=page

Page 3. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=363&tab=page

Page 4. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=364&tab=page

Page 5. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=365&tab=page

Page 6. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=366&tab=page

Page 7. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=367&tab=page

Page 8. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=368&tab=page

Page 9. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=369&tab=page

Page 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=370&tab=page




During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.


Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 02:00:16 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2020, 02:30:32 PM »

Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.


LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:

Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page

Page 2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=362&tab=page

Page 3. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=363&tab=page

Page 4. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=364&tab=page

Page 5. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=365&tab=page

Page 6. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=366&tab=page

Page 7. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=367&tab=page

Page 8. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=368&tab=page

Page 9. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=369&tab=page

Page 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=370&tab=page




During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.


Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Yes, that's what I understand too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa not a regular visa: transit. He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them. But he wanted to visit Cuba before returning and wanted a transit visa. Marina testified that he told her that he was going to go to Cuba and that she should go to the USSR. He then would (somehow) get them to come to Cuban once he was settled there.

When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.

As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.

And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 03:17:37 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »