JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on January 12, 2019, 05:18:20 PM
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Why should we trust KGB officers and Mexican and Cuban pro-Castro bureaucrats when they say they met with ("a highly unstable") Oswald in Mexico City in late September, 1963?
Regarding the former, why should we trust Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and, yep, that short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache," KGB Col. Nikolai Leonov who claimed in 1992 to have met one-on-one with Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, 1963(!), and very well could have been the person who provided Sylvia Duran with a taken-in-Minsk "passport-sized" photo of Oswald to be stapled to his Cuban Visa Application, and also could have been the (naturally?) bad English-speaking and (over-the-top?) bad Russian-speaking person who impersonated Oswald over the phone down there?
"Because when they revealed this stuff, the Cold War was over, Tommy!"
Hint: Not as far as the Ruskies were concerned, Bucko.
"But, but, but Mudd Wrassler Tommy, what evidence do you have?"
"And, and, and ... why would those nice Russians or that nice Fidel Castro want to kill JFK, anyway?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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I mean, I mean, I mean ... He said he didn't, right?
Why the heck should we trust KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and, yep, that "short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced" Nikolai Leonov who claimed in 1992 or so to have met one-on-one with Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, 1963, and very well could have been the person who provided Sylvia Duran with a taken-in-Minsk "passport-sized" photo of Oswald to be stapled to his Cuban Visa Application, and also could have been the (naturally?) bad English-speaking and (over-the-top?) bad Russian-speaking person who impersonated Oswald over the phone?
Etc.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
"But, but, but Mudd Wrassler Tommy, what evidence do you have?"
LOL
He said he didn't, right?
We don't know what Lee said.... But it does appear that he denied visiting Mexico City....
Personally , I believe that he did go to MC....He was attempting to get set up with a visa for fleeing from the hoax attempt on JFK ..... In Chicago, Maimi, houston, or Dallas..... He apparently did make vocal threats on JFK's life as a way of trying to convince the Cuban embassy to grant him a visa....
Since he knew that JFK had been murdered at the time he was being interrogated, he sure as hell didn't want it known that he'd threatened JFK in Mexico City....
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He said he didn't, right?
We don't know what Lee said.... But it does appear that he denied visiting Mexico City....
Personally , I believe that he did go to MC....He was attempting to get set up with a visa for fleeing from the hoax attempt on JFK ..... In Chicago, Maimi, houston, or Dallas..... He apparently did make vocal threats on JFK's life as a way of trying to convince the Cuban embassy to grant him a visa....
Since he knew that JFK had been murdered at the time he was being interrogated, he sure as hell didn't want it known that he'd threatened JFK in Mexico City....
Walt,
Would Oswald's admitting to Fritz that he'd gone to Mexico City (if he had indeed gone there) have been tantamount to his admitting he'd killed JFK?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You say you don't know what "Lee" said.
Hmm
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
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Walt,
Would Oswald's admitting to Fritz that he'd gone to Mexico City (if he had indeed gone there) have been tantamount to his admitting he'd killed JFK?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You say you don't know what "Lee" said.
Hmm
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
I don't know much about what Lee actually said.....except what he said publicly....and, He denied shooting anybody.
The notes that were taken during his initial interrogation reveal that he said that he saw "This rifle and two other rifles. in Mr Truly's office the day before yesterday."...( according to FBI agent James Hosty's hand written notes )
SOP in many police departments is the displaying of the alleged murder weapon to the suspect and asking if he recognizes the weapon ... Apparently they showed Lee the carcano and asked him if he's ever seen it before, and he replied... "Yes, I saw this rifle, and two other rifles in Mr Truly's office at lunchtime the day before yesterday. Mr Truly and some other men were examining the rifles"
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
I know with absolute certainty that Detective Studebaker gave us solid information which reveals that Lee could not have dashed by the site where the rifle was discovered and deposited that rifle AFTER the shooting....
Studebaker drew a map of the sixth floor and recorded that the rifle was found near the stairway in the NW corner of the TSBD. Studebaker recorded that the rifle was 15 ' 4" south of the north wall.....The aisle that Lee allegedly ran through as he started down the stairs to the 2nd floor lunchroom was 5 feet north of that 15' 4" location... The 5'9" Lee Oswald would have had to have been the comic book character "Plasticman" to have had the ability to reach across the five foot span with an 8 pound rifle.
Since I know this is an irrefutable FACT ...I know the official story is nothing but Bull Stuff...
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Walt,
Do you lend any credence to Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and that "short, blond, thin, blue-eyed, very thin-faced" KGB colonel, Nikolai Leonov?
Oh yeah, and pro-Castro Sylvia Duran (who said the man she dealt with on 9/27/63 was the same guy Jack Ruby shot on 9/24/63)?
Really?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Have you been keeping up with news reporting (by news sources with "High" factual reporting) about the Mueller Investigation, etc?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com
PPS Regarding Studebaker: Fine, but does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American (or someone contracted by that evil, evil, evil American) stashed or planted that rifle there?
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Walt,
What does any of that have to do with whether or not Oswald went to Mexico City?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Pardon Me...I thought you asked....
PS You say you don't know what "Lee" said.
Hmm
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
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Pardon Me...I thought you asked....
PS You say you don't know what "Lee" said.
Hmm
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
Walt,
Yes, I did ask that.
1) Is there anything else?
2) Do you believe KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and Leonov, because, you know, The Cold War was like over man by 1993 (or whenever), and the KGB had become a truth-telling humanitarian organization by that time?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Walt,
Do you lend any credence to Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and that "short, blond, thin, blue-eyed, very thin-faced" KGB colonel, Nikolai Leonov?
Oh yeah, and pro-Castro Sylvia Duran (who said the man she dealt with on 9/27/63 was the same guy Jack Ruby shot on 9/24/63)?
Really?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Have you been keeping up with news reporting (by news sources with "High" factual reporting) about the Mueller Investigation, etc?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com
PPS Regarding Studebaker: Fine, but does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American (or someone contracted by that evil, evil, evil American) stashed or planted that rifle there?
Regarding Studebaker: Fine, but does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American (or someone contracted by that evil, evil, evil American) stashed or planted that rifle there?
I'm sure those Americans who murdered JFK in the coup d e'tat believed that they were ultra patriots who were ridding the country of a catholic communist, who was in cahoots with Khrueschev. But only a few had solid reason to want John Kennedy dead and gone.... LBJ and JEH were at the top of the list...
does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American stashed or planted that rifle there?
Think about it.... The fake photos of the rifle in situ and the story that was IMMEDIATELY dumped on us trusting ignoramus's said that Lee had dashed by the top of the stairs and hastily dumped his rifle behind some boxes of books as he fled after shooting President Kennedy.
After viewing the scene, Any 11 year old junior Dick Tracy could have understood that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside by a fleeing killer.....And yet those sage detectives apparently didn't have the ability of the Junior Dick Tracy.....OR they were ruthless ultra patriots and told us that yarn, and then created the false evidence to support their lie....
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Walt,
Yes, I did ask that.
1) Is there anything else?
2) Do you believe KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and Leonov, because, you know, The Cold War was like over man by 1992 (or whenever), and the KGB had become a truth-telling humanitarian organization by that time?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Dear Mudd... ( would that be a grandson of Dr Mudd? who conspired with JW Booth )
Forget about any outside ( foreign) conspirators And keep your God given computer loaded with truthful data....
WHO benefited from the demise of John Kennedy?
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Regarding Studebaker: Fine, but does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American (or someone contracted by that evil, evil, evil American) stashed or planted that rifle there?
I'm sure those Americans who murdered JFK in the coup d e'tat believed that they were ultra patriots who were ridding the country of a catholic communist, who was in cahoots with Khrueschev. But only a few had solid reason to want John Kennedy dead and gone.... LBJ and JEH were at the top of the list...
does that necessarilly mean that some evil, evil, evil American stashed or planted that rifle there?
Think about it.... The fake photos of the rifle in situ and the story that was IMMEDIATELY dumped on us trusting ignoramus's said that Lee had dashed by the top of the stairs and hastily dumped his rifle behind some boxes of books as he fled after shooting President Kennedy.
Any 11 year old junior Dick Tracy could have understood that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside by a fleeing killer.....And yet those sage detectives apparently didn't have the ability of the Junior Dick Tracy.....OR they were ruthless ultra patriots and told us that yarn, and then created the false evidence to support their lie....
Walt,
You probabably missed this:
"Do you believe KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and (Duran's/Azcue's) 'short, blond, thin, blue-eyed, 35-ish, very thin-faced' (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov, because, you know, The Cold War was like over man by 1993 (when Passport to Assassination was published), and the KGB had become a freakin' truth-telling humanitarian organization by that time?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Walt,
You probabably missed this:
"Do you believe KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and (Duran's/Azcue's) 'short, blond, thin, blue-eyed, 35-ish, very thin-faced' (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov, because, you know, The Cold War was like over man by 1993 (when Passport to Assassination was published), and the KGB had become a freakin' truth-telling humanitarian organization by that time?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Cakebread asked: "Who benefited by the death of JFK?"
My answer: Well, in the longrun, KGBMafia-boy Vladimir Putin did, seein' as how Kennedy's murder gave rise to oodles and gobbs of anti-U.S. government Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theories, which in turn paved the way for Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear and Guccifer 2.0 and Putin's lackey-agent Julian Assange, and how they successfully trolled American voters who had already been properly "conditioned" by said CTs to forego fact-checking altogether, and just go with whatever clickbait kinda "resonated" with them, be they on the Left, or on the Right.
But in the shorter run, Khruschev certainly stood to benefit from JFK's sudden demise, especially since he knew CIA would figure out that he and/or Castro had done the foul deed.
I've alread posted about that on another thread. Did you miss that, too?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Walt,
You probabably missed this:
"Do you believe KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and (Duran's/Azcue's) 'short, blond, thin, blue-eyed, 35-ish, very thin-faced' (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov, because, you know, The Cold War was like over man by 1993 (when Passport to Assassination was published), and the KGB had become a freakin' truth-telling humanitarian organization by that time?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Pssst Muddy.... Once a person KNOWS the truth they lose any interest in listening to bull shippin stories....
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No. He said he didn't just like he said he was a patsy. It doesn't matter what thin-face man says. There is too much evidence elsewhere to show that he was just being set up. They had him where they wanted him.
Read George Michael Evica's books, Tom - A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They're available as free downloads. It'd be next to impossible to take all of this planning and setting up of LHO - with Paine, Ruby and others - to then some how project it all on the Russians. There's no way the Russians could have done this much behind the scenes planning as it happened.
And like you seemed to project in another thread, Paine was NOT KGB. That was a real shocker for me to read you say that because except for the Russian thing, you seem pretty sensible otherwise.
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Here (below) is the draft copy of the letter that Oswald sent the Soviet Embassy in Washington where he discusses going to Mexico City and visiting the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy. The handwriting was identified as belonging to Oswald.
He would then type a letter - using Ruth Paine's typewriter - and mail it to the Soviet Embassy. Both Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine testified that they saw him type the letter. His signature on that letter was identified as being Oswalds. The letter was shown by the FBI to have been typed on Ruth's typewriter.
The draft (page one):
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a7ff/2iqc47nb6wy30onzg.jpg)
Page two:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a62b/29mi8qxajawmbmlzg.jpg)
The actual letter:
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/8p358ex48.gif)
Additionally: People who were on a bus going to MC said they saw and talked to Oswald. People at the hotel - a cleaning lady and waiter - said they saw him. Cubans at the consulate - Duran and Mirabal - say it was Oswald. The Soviet officials - KGB agents - say the man was Oswald and that the man in the photos did NOT identify himself as Oswald. There's a visa issued to Oswald from the Mexican consulate in New Orleans with his handwriting/signature on it. On and on and on it goes.
It's not a question of accepting the KGB accounts. We look at their accounts and corroborating evidence. That evidence for me is conclusive.
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No. He said he didn't just like he said he was a patsy. It doesn't matter what thin-face man says. There is too much evidence elsewhere to show that he was just being set up. They had him where they wanted him.
Read George Michael Evica's books, Tom - A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They're available as free downloads. It'd be next to impossible to take all of this planning and setting up of LHO - with Paine, Ruby and others - to then some how project it all on the Russians. There's no way the Russians could have done this much behind the scenes planning as it happened.
And like you seemed to project in another thread, Paine was NOT KGB. That was a real shocker for me to read you say that because except for the Russian thing, you seem pretty sensible otherwise.
Oswald saying - through the accounts given by Fritz and Hosty - that he didn't go to Mexico City is sufficient proof for you that he didn't go? That's all it takes?
Question please: You believe "they" set him up as going to Mexico City and then you believe "they" said he told them he didn't go to Mexico City? Why would they do this?
If they "set" him up why didn't they say he admitted to going there? He was dead; they could say he said anything.
You do realize that what you believe makes no sense at all? You have them framing him for going to MC and then saying he didn't go. Why would they do this?
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Pssst Muddy.... Once a person KNOWS the truth they lose any interest in listening to bull shippin stories....
Says Wallyburger..
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Here is one of the copies of the transit visa that Oswald applied for when he visited the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. This was supplied by the Cuban government. The signature was identified as belonging to Oswald.
The Cuban official - Sylvia Turan Duran - who typed out the forms has said for more than 55 years that the man she met was Lee Harvey Oswald.
(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/streams/2013/november/131119/2d9730521-131118-oswald-cuba-vmed-345p.nbcnews-fp-360-360.jpg)
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Here (below) is the draft copy of the letter that Oswald sent the Soviet Embassy in Washington where he discusses going to Mexico City and visiting the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy. The handwriting was identified as belonging to Oswald.
He would then type a letter - using Ruth Paine's typewriter - and mail it to the Soviet Embassy. Both Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine testified that they saw him type the letter. His signature on that letter was identified as being Oswalds. The letter was shown by the FBI to have been typed on Ruth's typewriter.
[...]
Steve,
Who's to say that Ruth or Marina or someone else didn't type that letter and write that draft?
Fwiw, according to KGB defector Vasily Mitrokhin, the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter was forged by the KGB to implicate the Military Industrial Intelligenge Complex in the assassination of JFK.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Here is one of the copies of the transit visa that Oswald applied for when he visited the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. This was supplied by the Cuban government. The signature was identified as belonging to Oswald.
The Cuban official - Sylvia Turan Duran - who typed out the forms has said for more than 55 years that the man she met was Lee Harvey Oswald.
(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/streams/2013/november/131119/2d9730521-131118-oswald-cuba-vmed-345p.nbcnews-fp-360-360.jpg)
Yeah, Steve, and 5' 3.5" Sylvia Tirado de Duran described her "Oswald" as being short, blond-haired, blue-or-green-eyed, and weighing about the same as Eddie Lopez (199 119 lbs.).
Lee Harvey Oswald was 5' 9.5", brown-haired, grey-or-hazel-eyed, and weighed around 135 lbs.
"Third Secretary" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, however, was 5' 7", blond-haired, had blue eyes, and was, well, downright skinny.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Oh yeah, and Duran said her "Oswald" was cheaply dressed.
Isn't it interesting that the sweater vest Oswald was wearing in his Cuban Visa Application photo, above, was the same one he was wearing in three or four photos of him that were taken apparently fairly early on in his USSR sojourn? Point being: that passport-sized photo of him could have been taken in Minsk, and in fact it is very similar in format of other photos in his "Minsk Scrap Book," or whatever it was called.
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Read the books, Tom. They're available free. Tell me - do you not find it the least bit intriguing what kind of ring LHO had on when he was arrested? Photos prove what it was. The two free books and the ring he had on are book ends.
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Oswald saying - through the accounts given by Fritz and Hosty - that he didn't go to Mexico City is sufficient proof for you that he didn't go? That's all it takes?
Question please: You believe "they" set him up as going to Mexico City and then you believe "they" said he told them he didn't go to Mexico City? Why would they do this?
If they "set" him up why didn't they say he admitted to going there? He was dead; they could say he said anything.
You do realize that what you believe makes no sense at all? You have them framing him for going to MC and then saying he didn't go. Why would they do this?
Question please: You believe "they" set him up as going to Mexico City and then you believe "they" said he told them he didn't go to Mexico City? Why would they do this?
They = Hoover's "EXTRA Special" Special agents...
Because "THEY were setting him up as their patsy....Who Hoover wanted tied to Fidel Castro....
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Steve,
Who's to say that Ruth or Marina or someone else didn't type that letter and write that draft?
Fwiw, according to KGB defector Vasily Mitrokhin, the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter was forged by the KGB to implicate the Military Industrial Intelligenge Complex in the assassination of JFK.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
There is no evidence that Ruth or Marina typed it. You can propose any scenario but without evidence all it is in an imaginary scenario. The signature on the letter was identified as being Oswald's.
The draft copy of the letter was found. It was written in Oswald's handwriting. There are details in the letter that only the real Oswald would have known about. Like his disagreement with Azcue; his need to leave because his visa was going to expire. Who else would know about these details since the evidence is overwhelming - to me - that he did visit the Cuban consulate.
Question: Why would the, as you suggest they were, KGB agents Ruth and Marina type this letter? I thought Oswald was working for the KGB too? Did they frame a fellow agent?
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Question please: You believe "they" set him up as going to Mexico City and then you believe "they" said he told them he didn't go to Mexico City? Why would they do this?
They = Hoover's "EXTRA Special" Special agents...
Because "THEY were setting him up as their patsy....Who Hoover wanted tied to Fidel Castro....
Then "they" cleared Castro of any involvement in their "fake" LBJ orchestrated investigation? Is that your argument?
Hoover framed Oswald to blame Castro and then he cleared Castro in his investigation? Hoover testified that Oswald alone killed JFK and that there was no foreign government involvement.
Second: if they framed him for Mexico City then why did FBI agent Hosty and Curry Fritz say he denied going there? He was dead. Hosty and Curry Fritz could have said he admitted going there. Why didn't Hoover order Hosty to say Oswald admitted he went to MC? You think this whole thing was orchestrated, a complete farce; so why not say he admitted going there? Again, he was dead. They could say anything and he couldn't refute it.
I mean at some point this has to make some sense, doesn't it?
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Here (below) is the draft copy of the letter that Oswald sent the Soviet Embassy in Washington
He would then type a letter - using Ruth Paine's typewriter
Russian speaking Oswald sent a letter in English to the Soviet Embassy?
Posted by: Steve M. Galbraith
? on: Today at 09:15:35 PM ?
The Cuban official - Sylvia Turan Duran - who typed out the forms has said for more than 55 years that the man she met was Lee Harvey Oswald.
A managed story it seems. "They" didn't come along until after the assassination and contrived the whole incident. Where did the whole trip to Mexico story come from?
...similar in format of other photos in his "Minsk Scrap Book," or whatever it was called.
And...From whatever source, rumors of a Duran-Oswald sexual relationship were soon floating through the US Embassy in Mexico City in the first week after the assassination, when they were heard by an FBI agent, Larry Keenan, who had been sent down by Washington.[46] A Cuban exile who was also a CIA agent, Salvador Diaz Verson, claimed to have heard in the offices of the Mexico City newspaper Excelsior, on November 25, that the DFS had learned from Dur?n that Oswald "had contacted DURAN, and had stayed in her home in Mexico City."[47] (Silvia Dur?n herself testified that the DFS had given the results of her first interrogation to Excelsior, where a version of them was published.)[48] As late as 1967 Dur?n reportedly told a CIA agent, LIRING-3, that in her November 23 interrogation she had been "interviewed thoroughly and beaten until she admitted that she had an affair with Oswald."[49] CIA Station Chief Win Scott later reported on this Phase-One allegation as a fact, "the fact that Silvia Dur?n had sexual intercourse with Lee Harvey Oswald on several occasions when the latter was in Mexico City."[50]
A decade later Dur?n confirmed to the House Assassinations Committee staff that she had been questioned about sexual relations with Oswald, which she linked to the claim that "we were Communists and that we were planning the Revolution."[51]
..... all the time they tell me that I was a Communist...and they insisted that I was a very important person for...the Cuban Government and that I was the link for the International Communists -- the Cuban Communists, the Mexican Communists and the American Communists, and that we were going to kill Kennedy, and I was the link. For them I was very important.[/b][52]
Is this really our Harvey? A liaison there way back then?
Dispatch HMMA-32243 of 13 June 1967, covering TX-1937 of 26 May 1967; Chapter IV, 38.
https://www.history-matters.com/pds/DP3_Overview.htm
(http://www.jfk-info.com/lho-pass.jpg) (https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/MoreMexicoMysteries/images/Oswald_Passport_F-194.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/04/Pict_statesecret_ch3_passport.png)
New passport: Oswald's plans to depart
between Oct-Dec 1963 and spend a year
in the USSR and elsewhere.
Most people agree that a man calling himself Oswald visited Mexico City for a few days between the 27th of September and the 2nd of October. Most people agree that he went back and forth on the 27th between the Cuban consulate and the Soviet consulate - trying to get a visa to visit both countries and failing at both - with one last stab at the Soviet consulate on the 28th. At the Cuban consulate, consul Eusebio Azcue insisted that the man he met was not Oswald.
A long super essay about everything here.........
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html
The issued passport [produced by the Report]-----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=850
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There is no evidence that Ruth or Marina typed it. You can propose any scenario but without evidence all it is in an imaginary scenario. The signature on the letter was identified as being Oswald's.
The draft copy of the letter was found. It was written in Oswald's handwriting. There are details in the letter that only the real Oswald would have known about. Like his disagreement with Azcue; his need to leave because his visa was going to expire. Who else would know about these details since the evidence is overwhelming - to me - that he did visit the Cuban consulate.
Question: Why would the, as you suggest they were, KGB agents Ruth and Marina type this letter? I thought Oswald was working for the KGB too? Did they frame a fellow agent?
..."but without evidence"... IOW, how do you react in argument to, "well, so & so passed a polygraph...."?
https://digitalcommons.law.utulsa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2617&context=tlr
Cases Involving the Reliability of Handwriting Identification Expertise ........
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HandwritingGalbraith.jpg)
........
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[...]
Question: Why would the, as you suggest they were, KGB agents Ruth and Marina type this letter? I thought Oswald was working for the KGB too? Did they frame a fellow agent?
Steve,
I have already shown that triple-agents Aleksei Kulak and Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975 Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file.
How?
By the former's making KGB officer Valiery Kostikov's name "radioactive," and the latter's "volunteering" said radioactive name to an Oswald impostor over a sure-to-be-tapped Soviet Embassy phone line on 10/01/63.
The "Kostin letter" can be reasonably construed as a clever supplement to the above-mentioned stategim.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Then "they" cleared Castro of any involvement in their "fake" LBJ orchestrated investigation? Is that your argument?
Hoover framed Oswald to blame Castro and then he cleared Castro in his investigation? Hoover testified that Oswald alone killed JFK and that there was no foreign government involvement.
Second: if they framed him for Mexico City then why did FBI agent Hosty and Curry say he denied going there? He was dead. Hosty and Curry could have said he admitted going there. Why didn't Hoover order Hosty to say Oswald admitted he went to MC? You think this whole thing was orchestrated, a complete farce; so why not say he admitted going there? Again, he was dead. They could say anything and he couldn't refute it.
I mean at some point this has to make some sense, doesn't it?
The original plot ( plot "A") Hoover and the others had plotted to make it appear that Lee Oswald was a Casro agent, and they planned to attack Cuba in retaliation.... When LBJ learned that Russia had nuclear bombers in the air and ready to bomb NYC They backed away and called for back up plot "B".... Hang the murder on that dumbass Lee Harvey Oswald who they knew they could easily frame ...especially if the sucker could be shot while trying to flee the TSBD....
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.... When LBJ learned that Russia had nuclear bombers in the air and ready to bomb NYC They backed away and called for back up plot "B"....
Where's the citation for the claim?
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The original plot ( plot "A") Hoover and the others had plotted to make it appear that Lee Oswald was a Casro agent, and they planned to attack Cuba in retaliation.... When LBJ learned that Russia had nuclear bombers in the air and ready to bomb NYC They backed away and called for back up plot "B".... Hang the murder on that dumbass Lee Harvey Oswald who they knew they could easily frame ...especially if the sucker could be shot while trying to flee the TSBD....
There is no evidence whatsoever that "Russia had nuclear bombers in the air and ready to bomb NYC" and that's why LBJ backed away from blaming Castro. None. No Pentagon reports of this, none from the Soviets, none anywhere. Nothing whatsoever.
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There is no evidence whatsoever that "Russia had nuclear...
..weapons in Cuba. I know about U2 pictures...missiles etc but what actual solid evidence was there that they were equipped with nuclear tips?
In my unsupported guesstimation ...Oswald was not the only American with a cloudy background that was impersonated in Mexico City.
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..weapons in Cuba. I know about U2 pictures...missiles etc but what actual solid evidence was there that they were equipped with nuclear tips?
In my unsupported guesstimation ...Oswald was not the only American with a cloudy background that was impersonated in Mexico City.
Dear Jerry,
After the failed U.S. attempt to overthrow the Castro regime in Cuba with the Bay of Pigs invasion, and while the Kennedy administration planned Operation Mongoose, in July 1962 Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev reached a secret agreement with Cuban premier Fidel Castro to place Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba to deter any future invasion attempt. Construction of several missile sites began in the late summer, but U.S. intelligence discovered evidence of a general Soviet arms build-up on Cuba, including Soviet IL?28 bombers, during routine surveillance flights, and on September 4, 1962, President Kennedy issued a public warning against the introduction of offensive weapons into Cuba. Despite the warning, on October 14 a U.S. U?2 aircraft took several pictures clearly showing sites for medium-range and intermediate-range ballistic nuclear missiles (MRBMs and IRBMs) under construction in Cuba. These images were processed and presented to the White House the next day, thus precipitating the onset of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile-crisis
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Jerry......
Dear Thomas...
If I show you a gun concealed in a holster under my coat.... How do you really know that there are bullets in it? You just assume there are :-\
Did you know that JFK withdrew US missiles from Turkey over that 'crisis'?
Kennedy had secretly agreed to a major concession to the Soviet Union that Stevenson had urged as a way to end the crisis short of nuclear war. The evidence is contained in a letter written in March by Dean Rusk, Kennedy's secretary of state. It concerns a proposal that the United States should withdraw Jupiter missiles from Turkey simultaneously with the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/08/29/kennedy-secretly-a-dove-in-cuba-crisis-letter-shows/f875af7a-7874-47cc-b221-cd653959edd4/?noredirect=on
Now let's all return to Mexico City shall we?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=800#relPageId=279
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Dear Thomas...
If I show you a gun concealed in a holster under my coat.... How do you really know that there are bullets in it? You just assume there are :-\
Did you know that JFK withdrew US missiles from Turkey over that 'crisis'?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/08/29/kennedy-secretly-a-dove-in-cuba-crisis-letter-shows/f875af7a-7874-47cc-b221-cd653959edd4/?noredirect=on
Now let's all return to Mexico City shall we?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=800#relPageId=279
Dear Jerry,
Are medium range ballistic missiles used for anything other than delivering nuclear warheads?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina
Do you think Khrushchev and Castro just wanted to make Kennedy think those missiles were nuclear-tipped, but really weren't?
Can you prove that they weren't nuclear-tipped?
Do you think the specialists who analyzed the photos taken by the U-2 plane over Cuba somehow misidentified the kind of missles in the photos?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Yes, Jerry, I knew that JFK secretly agreed to withdraw our Jupiter missiles from Turkey, in exchange for Khruschev's agreeing to remove his nuclear-tipped missiles from Cuba.
PPS Do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City?
If not, do you have any theories as to who impersonated him over the phone there, bearing in mind that on Sarurday 9/28/63 the over-the-phone impersonator spoke "bad English and bad Russian"?
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..weapons in Cuba. I know about U2 pictures...missiles etc but what actual solid evidence was there that they were equipped with nuclear tips?
In my unsupported guesstimation ...Oswald was not the only American with a cloudy background that was impersonated in Mexico City.
There are many things that ordinary citizens are not told....You'd be surprised to learn how many times nuclear armed airplanes have been scrambled.....
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There are many things that ordinary citizens are not told....You'd be surprised to learn how many times nuclear armed airplanes have been scrambled.....
Dear Walt,
You got a secret back-channel to The Truth, or something?
Why would Khruschev put phony MRBM's and IRBM's in Cuba, Walt?
To make JFK pee his pants and allow Khrushev to do anything he wanted in the Western Hemisphere, including threatening a first-strike against Washington D.C. from Cuba?
Who besides Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City, Walt?
(By the evil, evil, evil CIA, right?)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Jerry,
After the failed U.S. attempt to overthrow the Castro regime in Cuba with the Bay of Pigs invasion, and while the Kennedy administration planned Operation Mongoose, in July 1962 Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev reached a secret agreement with Cuban premier Fidel Castro to place Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba to deter any future invasion attempt. Construction of several missile sites began in the late summer, but U.S. intelligence discovered evidence of a general Soviet arms build-up on Cuba, including Soviet IL?28 bombers, during routine surveillance flights, and on September 4, 1962, President Kennedy issued a public warning against the introduction of offensive weapons into Cuba. Despite the warning, on October 14 a U.S. U?2 aircraft took several pictures clearly showing sites for medium-range and intermediate-range ballistic nuclear missiles (MRBMs and IRBMs) under construction in Cuba. These images were processed and presented to the White House the next day, thus precipitating the onset of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile-crisis
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Dear Mudd You stated that U-2 spy planes were constantly over flying Cuba and taking photos ....
Men with the clearance, who were trained and qualified to load and unload the highly sophisticated cameras of the U-2 were few and far between.
Lee Oswald had been associated with the U-2 for years....and isn't it strange that he abruptly quit a job that he enjoyed after a man in a suit visited the shop where he worked....and then disappeared for about two months during the missile crisis. He left Marina and June behind and simply vanished....
Some of the U-2 planes were operating out of Carswell AFB which is near Fort Worth Texas.....
What would you guess Lee Oswald was doing in October of 1962??
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Dear Mudd You stated that U-2 spy planes were constantly over flying Cuba and taking photos ....
Men with the clearance, who were trained and qualified to load and unload the highly sophisticated cameras of the U-2 were few and far between.
Lee Oswald had been associated with the U-2 for years....and isn't it strange that he abruptly quit a job that he enjoyed after a man in a suit visited the shop where he worked....and then disappeared for about two months during the missile crisis. He left Marina and June behind and simply vanished....
Some of the U-2 planes were operating out of Carswell AFB which is near Fort Worth Texas.....
What would you guess Lee Oswald was doing in October of 1962??
Dear Walt,
I said "constantly"?
Regardless, you ask too many ambiguous, rhetorical questions.
Why don't you fill us all in with The Truth According To Walt Cakebread?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Fascinating stuff that Oswald "disappeared for two months during the Cuban Missile Crisis," Walt. Where did you read or hear that?
What was he doing during those two months, Walt?
Was he on a mission for the evil, evil, evil CIA? The evil, evil, evil FBI? The evil, evil, evil ONI?
From Interactive Timeline of the Life of Lee Harvey Oswald by W. Tracy Parnell:
[...]
August 25, 1962: The Oswalds attend a dinner party at the home of Paul Gregory, where they meet several members of the local Russian ?migr? community.
September, 1962: The Oswalds meet George De Mohrenschildt and his wife.
October, 1962: Marina and June move in with Elena Hall while LHO looks for work in Dallas.
October 9, 1962: LHO visits the Texas Employment Commission in Dallas where he scores well on aptitude tests. He also rents a PO Box under his own name at the main Post Office.
October 10, 1962: LHO fills out a change of address form forwarding his mail to the new PO box.
October 11, 1962: LHO is referred to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. by the Employment Commission, and he is hired.
October 12, 1962: He begins work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
October 15, 1962: LHO moves into the YMCA.
October 16, 1962: June is baptized without LHO's knowledge.
November 4, 1962: The Oswalds are reunited at 604 Elsbeth St. in Dallas, where LHO had found an apartment.
[...]
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TG...Don't take that timeline according to the scribes of the Warren Report as gospel.
This anomaly was introduced a few months ago......
(http://knoxblogs.com/atomiccity/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/11/Visitor-register-i.jpg) Note that on July 26 1963 Lee H Oswald signed in [as a visitor from the Soviet Union living on Dallas Rd in Dallas] at the Atomic Energy Museum in Oak Ridge, Tennessee----According to the official timeline......
July 19, 1963: LHO is fired from the Reily Coffee Co.
July 22, 1963: He files a claim for unemployment benefits.
July 25, 1963: LHO's request for a review of his undesirable discharge is denied.
July 27, 1963: LHO speaks to the Jesuit group for 30 minutes on the subject of "Contemporary Russia and the Practice of Communism".
August 5, 1963: LHO offers to help anti-Castro Cuban Carlos Bringuier in his struggle against Castro.
Maybe Oswald gave that presentation to the Jesuit group 10 hrs and 600 miles from New Orleans where he was supposed to be?
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TG...Don't take that timeline according to the scribes of the Warren Report as gospel.
This anomaly was introduced a few months ago......
(http://knoxblogs.com/atomiccity/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/11/Visitor-register-i.jpg) Note that on July 26 1963 Lee H Oswald signed in [as a visitor from the Soviet Union living on Dallas Rd in Dallas] at the Atomic Energy Museum in Oak Ridge, Tennessee----According to the official timeline...... Maybe Oswald gave that presentation to the Jesuit group 10 hrs and 600 miles from New Orleans where he was supposed to be?
Dear Jerry,
Point being?
Regardless, do you really think Oswald would have written "USSR" in that guest book?
Is there a "Dallas Road"?
Do you think Oswald went to Mexico City in late September, 1963?
(The title of this thread is Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS That anomaly was introduced years ago.
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Point being? [I believe the point is clear ...all is not as it seems] Regardless, do you really think Oswald would have written "USSR" in that guest book? [Somebody did]
Do you think Oswald went to Mexico City in late September, 1963? [No]
PS That anomaly was introduced years ago. [This forum is a year old I was referring to here]
Thomas Graves you are in violation of the forum rules to not skip lines between sentences as it sucks up too much web space...... Posts with more than one line of empty space at the start of a post, at the end of a post, between text lines, before or after quotes and/or before or after images, including in between images, may be deleted.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,204.0.html
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,204.0.html
Dear Jerry,
Do you believe there were two Oswalds, "Lee Oswald," born in New Orleans, and "Harvey Oswald," born in Hungary?
Do you believe one of them signed that guest book in July?
Was somebody trying to set up one of them as a patsy by signing that guestbook and writing in "USSR"?
Who killed JFK? The evil, evil, evil CIA?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Jerry,
Do you believe there were two Oswalds, "Lee Oswald," born in New Orleans, and "Harvey Oswald," born in Hungary?
Do you believe one of them signed that guest book in July?
Was somebody trying to set up one of them as a patsy by signing that guestbook and writing in "USSR"?
Who killed JFK? The evil, evil, evil CIA?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
The signature does NOT look like the signature of Lee Oswald.... I'm not a handwriting expert, but it's fairly obvious that the register was not signed by Lee Harvey Oswald....
Which begs the question.... Who signed that register and for what reason?
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The signature does NOT look like the signature of Lee Oswald.... I'm not a handwriting expert, but it's fairly obvious that the register was not signed by Lee Harvey Oswald....
Which begs the question.... Who signed that register and for what reason?
Dear Walt,
I'm not a handwriting expert, either, but in my humble opinion it does look like Oswald's signature.
For what it's worth, please recall that KGB defector Vasili Mitrokhin claimed that the KGB had forged Oswald's "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, but inexplicably claimed that Yuri Nosenko was a true defector, so go figure.
(Relying on Tennent H. Bagley's excellent books Spy Wars and Spymaster, even professors John M. Newman and Peter Dale Scott now acknowledge that Nosenko was a false defector.)
Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City (the subject of this thread)?
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Dear Walt,
I'm not a handwriting expert, either, but in my humble opinion it does look like Oswald's signature.
For what it's worth, please recall that KGB defector Vasili Mitrokhin claimed that the KGB had forged Oswald's "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, but inexplicably claimed that Yuri Nosenko was a true defector, so go figure.
(Relying on Tennent H. Bagley's excellent books Spy Wars and Spymaster, even professors John M. Newman and Peter Dale Scott now acknowledge that Nosenko was a false defector.)
Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City (the subject of this thread)?
Dear Mr Mudd,
We could debate the fine points regarding the signature...... But since you're not an ex spurt*.... What would be accomplished?
Kinda like a blind man leading someone who can't see....
* Ex = ...A has been, or a former... as an EX wife Spurt =... Simply a drip under pressure......
PS Do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City (the subject of this thread)?
Yup!
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Dear Mr Mudd,
We could debate the fine points regarding the signature...... But since you're not an ex spurt*.... What would be accomplished?
Kinda like a blind man leading someone who can't see....
* Ex = ...A has been, or a former... as an EX wife Spurt =... Simply a drip under pressure......
PS Do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City (the subject of this thread)?
Yup!
Dear Walt,
It's interesting that you chose to engage in childish wordplay for the bulk of your "reply " rather than comment on or try to refute my observations about Mitrokhin, the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, and Tennent H. Bagley's, John Newman's, and Peter Dale Scott's "take" on Nosenko.
(Are you into "spurting" because you watch a lot of that sort of thing on the Internet? You know, whales, that sort of thing?)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walt,
It's interesting that you chose to engage in childish wordplay for the bulk of your "reply " rather than comment on or try to refute my observations about Mitrokhin, the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter, and Tennent H. Bagley's, John Newman's, and Peter Dale Scott's "take" on Nosenko.
Are you into "spurting" because you watch a lot of that sort of thing on the Internet?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Don't use the internet much....I enjoy wrassling with Mudd slingers on this forum, and occasionally buying something I need at Amazon, ......
As for "childish word play".... I was simply pointing out that I don't have a cure for your cranialrectaliis, nor do I own a cranium extraction tool..... So I can't possibly open your eyes to SEE that the signature on the register has many variations from Lee H Oswald's signature.
But I'm sure you can explain how Lee Oswald had his Mexican visa stamped at Nuevo Laredo on September 26th which is the same day the register was signed hundreds of miles away in Oak Ridge Tennessee.
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Don't use the internet much....I enjoy wrassling with Mudd slingers on this forum, and occasionally buying something I need at Amazon, ......
As for "childish word play".... I was simply pointing out that I don't have a cure for your cranialrectaliis, nor do I own a cranium extraction tool..... So I can't possibly open your eyes to SEE that the signature on the register has many variations from Lee H Oswald's signature.
But I'm sure you can explain how Lee Oswald had his Mexican visa stamped at Nuevo Laredo on September 26th which is the same day the register was signed hundreds of miles away in Oak Ridge Tennessee.
I guess those darned Ruskies were everywhere, Walt.
Question: Does Oswald's or "Oswald's" July signature in that guestbook somehow prove that he was in Mexico City in late September-early October?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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I guess those darned Ruskies were everywhere, Walt.
Question: Does Oswald's or "Oswald's" July signature in that guestbook somehow prove that he was in Mexico City in late September-early October?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
OOOOOPS!...You got me...Pardon Moi ... I'm in error...I thought the date on the registration book was 9/ 26 /63.... Which is the day that Lee entered Mexico at Nuevo Laredo....But that doesn't change my opinion that the person who signed the register was NOT Le H. Oswald.....
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OOOOOPS!...You got me...Pardon Moi ... I'm in error...I thought the date on the registration book was 9/ 26 /63.... Which is the day that Lee entered Mexico at Nuevo Laredo....But that doesn't change my opinion that the person who signed the register was NOT Le H. Oswald.....
Dear Walt,
I don't care if it was Oswald, Not-Oswald, or Not-Not-Oswald who signed the guest book, but I would like to know what significance you ascribe to Not-Oswald's apparent writing down "USSR" next to his or her forgery of Oswald's signature.
Care to comment?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Do you believe there were two Oswalds, "Lee Oswald," born in New Orleans, and "Harvey Oswald," born in Hungary?
I believe that there was a guy or maybe others impersonating him.
Do you believe one of them signed that guest book in July?
That is a mystery. Note that the Warren believers here have never commented on that matter.
Was somebody trying to set up one of them as a patsy by signing that guestbook and writing in "USSR"?
I can't see that being at that museum in Tennessee is [in itself] all that incriminating but the how and why he would be there is dubious is it not?
Who killed JFK? The evil, evil, evil CIA?
Powerful hidden elements of that agency were involved.
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(dupe)
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Dear Walt,
I don't care if it was Oswald, or Not-Oswald, or Not-Not-Oswald who signed the guest book, but I would like to know what significance you ascribe to Not-Oswald's apparent writing down "USSR" next to his or her forgery of Oswald's signature.
Care to comment?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I would like to know what significance you ascribe to Not-Oswald's apparent writing down "USSR" next to his or her forgery of Oswald's signature.
Thank you for asking for my opinion...Mudd,
I find the notation "USSR" highly suspicious and wacky..... It is clear to me that "someone" was desperately trying to place Lee Oswald at the Atomic Energy museum on July 26. I'm compelled to ask.... WHAT ?? of significance was going on that would require that Lee should either have an alibi or an indication that he was in that area on July 26th....
I know that JFK was planning to raid a illegal Cuban training camp on the north shore of Lake Ponchatrain and Lee Oswald had visited that camp with David Ferrie. If the raid had occurred on September 26th and Lee had been one of the men who had been arrested he could have been removed and isolated from the other prisoners ( some of them CIA) and then said that he was in Oak Ridge that day ...That's one possibility....
Who ever signed that register knew that Lee had lived in the USSR and since their forgery of Lee's signature was less than perfect they wanted something to cast off any doubt hat it was Lee who signed the register.
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Do you believe there were two Oswalds, "Lee Oswald," born in New Orleans, and "Harvey Oswald," born in Hungary?
I believe that there was a guy or maybe others impersonating him.
Do you believe one of them signed that guest book in July?
That is a mystery. Note that the Warren believers here have never commented on that matter.
Was somebody trying to set up one of them as a patsy by signing that guestbook and writing in "USSR"?
I can't see that being at that museum in Tennessee is [in itself] all that incriminating but the how and why he would be there is dubious is it not?
Who killed JFK? The evil, evil, evil CIA?
Powerful hidden elements of that agency were involved.
Dear Jerry,
Any idea as to why triple-agents Aleksey Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora") and Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975, top-secret Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately (e.g., John Newman's revised Oswald and the CIA) Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file seven weeks before the assassination?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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I would like to know what significance you ascribe to Not-Oswald's apparent writing down "USSR" next to his or her forgery of Oswald's signature.
Thank you for asking for my opinion...Mudd,
I find the notation "USSR" highly suspicious and wacky..... It is clear to me that "someone" was desperately trying to place Lee Oswald at the Atomic Energy museum on July 26. I'm compelled to ask.... WHAT ?? of significance was going on that would require that Lee should either have an alibi or an indication that he was in that area on July 26th....
I know that JFK was planning to raid a illegal Cuban training camp on the north shore of Lake Ponchatrain and Lee Oswald had visited that camp with David Ferrie. If the raid had occurred on September 26th and Lee had been one of the men who had been arrested he could have been removed and isolated from the other prisoners ( some of them CIA) and then said that he was in Oak Ridge that day ...That's one possibility....
Who ever signed that register knew that Lee had lived in the USSR and since their forgery of Lee's signature was less than perfect they wanted something to cast off any doubt hat it was Lee who signed the register.
I'm not sure that I follow any of this. Oswald needed an alibi for Sept. 26, so he signed this as being there on July 26? How exactly does that work? LOL. And why would he need any alibi at all if the people in charge of the raid could simply remove him? Obviously if he were rounded up in the raid then an alibi that he was somewhere else that day wouldn't serve any purpose with those who arrested him. They knew he was there because - wait for it - he would have been there in front of their own eyes when they arrested him. Whew.
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Mebbee this guy Barnes did not get the message? IOW, mudd's Sovs and their boy Lee had it all covered
and had no need for this ESSO exec. to make such a nonsensical notification to the FBI? And, how could
Barnes possibly notice (and later recall) anyone on September 26 as connected with Oswald, unless?
The Castro Obsession: U.S. Covert Operations Against Cuba, ...
https://books.google.com/books?id=PFYLAAAAYAAJ (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=jmwave+alhambra+&=)
Don Bohning - 2005 - Snippet view - More editions
6 While JMWAVE was by far the biggest, it was not the first CIA presence in Miami. ... Gleichauf opened an overt CIA office at 299 Alhambra Circle, a well- known, east-west street in Coral Gables, an upscale area abutting Miami on the south, ...
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/jfkdb.php?field=subjects&value=LHO%2C+POST-RP%2C+SIGHTING%2C+LAREDO%2C+TX%2C+NUEVO+LAREDO%2C+MX
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnesSeeingPeople.jpg)
Barnes's given name was misreported in this 1960 articles, but it is the same guy who "tipped" the FBI
ten days after the JFK Assassination.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/WinstonCbarnesOneOfTheLast.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=72011&search=winifred_and+barnes#relPageId=4
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EssoCubaWinifredBarnes.jpg)
Entry into Mexico on September 26, 1963, at Nuevo Laredo...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11075&relPageId=5
....371 Winfred Barnes...
AND...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59595&relPageId=33
....371. Winfred Barnes... 372.,,,,Bowen...
Winfred Barnes's CIA file proves a relationship with that agency but omits 1963 activities.:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10215-10128.pdf
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I'm not sure that I follow any of this. Oswald needed an alibi for Sept. 26, so he signed this as being there on July 26? How exactly does that work? LOL. And why would he need any alibi at all if the people in charge of the raid could simply remove him? Obviously if he were rounded up in the raid then an alibi that he was somewhere else that day wouldn't serve any purpose with those who arrested him. They knew he was there because - wait for it - he would have been there in front of their own eyes when they arrested him. Whew.
I'm not sure that I follow any of this.
Go back to sleep Mr "Smith".... This is way over your head....
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Dear Jerry,
Any idea as to why triple-agents Aleksey Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora") and Mexico City Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975, top-secret Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately (e.g., John Newman's revised Oswald and the CIA) Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file seven weeks before the assassination?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Bumped
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Answer quickly before Scully covers it with another "Beautiful Mind" collage.
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Jerry,
Any idea as to why triple-agents Aleksey Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora") and Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975, top-secret Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately (e.g., John Newman's revised Oswald and the CIA) Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file seven weeks before the assassination?
I don't have a clue.
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I don't have a clue.
Why not, Jerry?
Ever heard of KGB officer Valiery Kostikov (at the Mexico City Soviet Consulate) whom the illustrious Larry Hancock at the EF is on record as doubting was really "Department 13"?
How about Igor Brykin? Guenter Schulz?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Ever heard of KGB officer Valiery Kostikov...?
One emefer at a time :-\
But the links between Kostikov, who was serving as vice consul at the embassy as Oswald tried in vain to get a Soviet visa there in September 1963, and the KGB's "assassination" department appear to be far from definitively established, according to previously classified documents now available to the public.
https://www.rferl.org/a/us-ussr-kennedy-assassination-oswald-kgb-contact-mexico-assassinations-officer/28819941.html
See the photo? Everybody looks like ghouls. [& the DPS certainly were]
Kostikov himself was quoted about his interactions with Oswald in a book by a fellow KGB officer, Oleg Nechiporenko, about the Kennedy assassination.
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-55972-210-0 .....
On the whole Nechiporenko believes that Oswald was Kennedy's sole assassin, though, somewhat paradoxically, he feels there was a plot,
What a load of gavno [a Russian word] There was a plot for Oswald to be a lone assassin. [I've been saying that for years] If Oswald wanted to off Kennedy, why did he want to go to the Soviet Union [where Kennedy wasn't]? Don't anyone waste their money on any of that Commie durmo [another Russian word]
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One emefer at a time :-\https://www.rferl.org/a/us-ussr-kennedy-assassination-oswald-kgb-contact-mexico-assassinations-officer/28819941.html
See the photo? Everybody looks like ghouls. [& the DPS certainly were]https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-55972-210-0 .....What a load of gavno [a Russian word] There was a plot for Oswald to be a lone assassin. [I've been saying that for years] If Oswald wanted to off Kennedy, why did he want to go to the Soviet Union [where Kennedy wasn't]? Don't anyone waste their money on any of that Commie durmo [another Russian word]
Dear Jerry,
Not sure if you're comprehending what I've been saying. Larry Hancock and I agree with you that Valeriy Kostikov at the Mexico City Soviet Consulate probably wasn't "Department 13" (if that's what you're saying).
What's more important is that two KGB triple-agents (one of whom the FBI thought was working for it, and the other whom the CIA thought was working for it), with witting or unwitting help from a KGB agent at the U.N. (Oleg Brykin) and FBI double-agent (Guenter Schulz, aka FBI "Tumbleweed" and CIA "AEBURBLE"), managed not only to tentatively convince U.S. intelligence that diplomat/KGB officer Kostikov was "Department 13," but to plant a WW III virus in Oswald's CIA file (by "volunteering" Kostikov's now-radioactive name in a tapped-by-CIA phone conversation with "Oswald"), thereby insuring that, after the assassination, Armegeddon-fearing CIA and egg-on-face-fearing FBI would cover up all evidence that might implicate the Kremlin and / or Havana in the foul deed.
Now, how do you like that hovno? (Czech)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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No ! As J. Edgar Hoover thought , there was no real evidence or pictures of LHO in Mexico at said time !
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No ! As J. Edgar Hoover thought , there was no real evidence or pictures of LHO in Mexico at said time !
Mike,
If Oswald didn't go to Mexico City (and I agree with you that he didn't), then obviously he must have been impersonated over the phone down there, if not in person.
Since 5' 3.5" Sylvia Duran described the Oswald she'd dealt with as "skinny," having an "elongated" face, being about the same height as her, blond-haired, and blue (or green) eyed, and since her colleague Eusebio Azcue described him as being about 35 years old, thin, wearing a Prince of Wales suit, and having a very thin face, one can only assume they were both describing the 35 year-old, 5' 7", thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet Embassy, KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, the guy who had turned Raul Castro and Che Guevara onto Communism in 1955, who is in many photographs with Fidel and/or Raul Castro, and whose "calling card" was found in Fidel's possession when Fidel and Guevara were arrested in Mexico City in 1956.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48495&relPageId=3
But it's hard to believe that Leonov tried to physically impersonate Oswald to "old hand" Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue, for the simple reason that Azcue would have known him from diplomatic receptions they had attended, from consular business they had conducted with each other, and maybe even from playing against each other at Leonov's beloved Soviet Embassy volleyball games.
So, in my mind, Leonov didn't actually impersonate Oswald physically, but he did provide Sylvia Duran with one or two passport-sized photos of Oswald that were taken in the USSR, and told (or had Castro's intelligence service tell) Duran and Azcue what to do, and what to say to the authorities, afterwards.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Google "nikolai leonov" to see some photos of him.
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I'm not sure that I follow any of this.
Go back to sleep Mr "Smith".... This is way over your head....
You suggested that Oswald needed an alibi in case he was rounded up in a raid. And that explains why his signature appears on that date. That is idiotic for the reasons you apparently can't follow. If person A is arrested at a certain place and time, then the authorities know he was at that place and time because that is when and where they took him into custody. A person can't be two places at once. So Oswald's signature does him no good in the silly scenario that you have proposed. Nor does it make sense if the authorities have the capability to get him released. You don't need an alibi if someone in charge of your incarceration is willing and able to release you. They just arrange for his release. Most likely his is a hoax after the fact.
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You suggested that Oswald needed an alibi in case he was rounded up in a raid. And that explains why his signature appears on that date. That is idiotic for the reasons you apparently can't follow. If person A is arrested at a certain place and time, then the authorities know he was at that place and time because that is when and where they took him into custody. A person can't be two places at once. So Oswald's signature does him no good in the silly scenario that you have proposed. Nor does it make sense if the authorities have the capability to get him released. You don't need an alibi if someone in charge of your incarceration is willing and able to release you. They just arrange for his release. Most likely his is a hoax after the fact.
You suggested that Oswald needed an alibi in case he was rounded up in a raid. And that explains why his signature appears on that date. That is idiotic for the reasons you apparently can't follow. If person A is arrested at a certain place and time, then the authorities know he was at that place and time because that is when and where they took him into custody.
Psssst... Mr "Smith"... If an undercover secret agent ( Let's say CIA) is rounded up with the criminals that he has exposed, the agency sure as hell don't want to compromise that agent by putting him on trial.... They would be prepared to make that agent be far away from the area at the time and therefore he couldn't possibly have been the person who was using the name "Oswald" in Luscome....
PS...This is simply one idea and explanation that the agency might order an agent to go to a place that registered the guests, and sign in as Lee H. Oswald....
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So Oswald's signature ..... Most likely his is a hoax after the fact.
It would have to have been quite an elaborate hoax. Looking at that register [back on page two] there is all those other signatures and hometowns that would have to be faked and if so... to what end? I wonder if anyone ever came forward and reported that their signature was also on that same register?
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It would have to have been quite an elaborate hoax. Looking at that register [back on page two] there is all those other signatures and hometowns that would have to be faked and if so... to what end? I wonder if anyone ever came forward and reported that their signature was also on that same register?
Who knows why people make up stuff? Why would it have to be elaborate? Maybe there is a blank line and someone later thought it might be amusing to write down his name there. Maybe the entire page is a hoax. There doesn't have to be any sinister reason. It seems pretty clear it wasn't Oswald and there is no apparent reason in any fantasy conspiracy to put it there. How would it advance the conspiracy cause to put Oswald's signature there?
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Who knows why people make up stuff? Why would it have to be elaborate? Maybe there is a blank line and someone later thought it might be amusing to write down his name there. Maybe the entire page is a hoax. There doesn't have to be any sinister reason. It seems pretty clear it wasn't Oswald and there is no apparent reason in any fantasy conspiracy to put it there. How would it advance the conspiracy cause to put Oswald's signature there?
It seems ironic that you, being the person who constantly complains about CT's believing evidence is or could be faked, now propose that this evidence is a hoax and thus faked.
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Who knows why people make up stuff? Why would it have to be elaborate? Maybe there is a blank line and someone later thought it might be amusing to write down his name there. Maybe the entire page is a hoax. There doesn't have to be any sinister reason. It seems pretty clear it wasn't Oswald and there is no apparent reason in any fantasy conspiracy to put it there. How would it advance the conspiracy cause to put Oswald's signature there?
Maybe there is a blank line and someone later thought it might be amusing to write down his name there. Maybe the entire page is a hoax. There doesn't have to be any sinister reason.
That's my thinking also.... a slight possibility. Nothing sinister, but still a good reason for putting a FORGED signature of Lee Oswald on that register. "Someone clearly thought that Lee Oswald might need an alibi of being at that location when in fact he was someplace else.
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Why should we trust KGB officers and Mexican and Cuban pro-Castro bureaucrats (Duran, Azcue, and Miribal) when they say they met with ("a highly unstable") Oswald in Mexico City in late September, 1963?
Regarding the former, why should we, like naive John Newman in Oswald and the CIA (2008), trust KGB officers Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and, yep, that 5' 7", blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultural Attache," KGB Col. Nikolai Leonov who claimed in 1992 to have met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-packin' Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, 1963(!; which story Newman doesn't acknowledge, as far as I know), and who could very well have been the "skinny, quite short, blond-haired, blue-eyed, elongated-faced" man who allegedly claimed to be Oswald and provided Sylvia Duran with a (probably-taken-in-Minsk) passport-sized photo of real-deal Oswald to staple to "Oswald's" Cuban Visa Application, and who also could very well have been the (good) Spanish-speaking, (naturally?) bad English-speaking, and (overly dramatic?) bad Russian-speaking person who impersonated Oswald over the phone down there?
"Because when they revealed this stuff, the Cold War was over, Tommy! That's why we should trust 'em!"
Hint: The Cold War wasn't over as far as the Ruskies were concerned, Bucko.
"But, but, but Mudd Wrassler Tommy, what evidence do you have?"
"And, and, and ... why would those nice Russians or that nice Fidel Castro want to kill JFK, anyway?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Edited and bumped in an attempt to get this thread back "on topic."
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Why would it have to be elaborate?
Seriously?
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Richard Smith: "Why would it have to be elaborate?"
...
Seriously?
Okay guys,
Shall I start a new thread for you titled, "Did Lee Harvey Oswald Go To Oak Ridge, Tennessee, in July 1963?"
Or shall I just delete this whole thread (if I can)?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Shall I start a new thread for you titled, "Did Lee Harvey Oswald Go To Oak Ridge, Tennessee, in July 1963?"
Easy Tommy it's OK. I could believe that LHO went to Oak Ridge before I could believe he went to Mexico. I can accept all possibilities however...where is an Oswald signed guest register in Mexico in late Sept '63? Anyone?
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Easy Tommy it's OK. I could believe that LHO went to Oak Ridge before I could believe he went to Mexico. I can accept all possibilities however...where is an Oswald signed guest register in Mexico in late Sept '63? Anyone?
Dear Jerry,
And I could believe that he had uh bowl of Hungarian chili an uh Dr Pepper wits you know Jack and Bomp and da boys at da Gold Rail, downtown San Diego, abouts one years earlier.
Question: Why, allofasudden, do you want to see the Hotel del Comercio's guest register, Jerry? To compare the forged signatures, or just to make a nice little segue?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
https://www-sandiegoreader-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1999/mar/18/cover-when-everything-was-lost/?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&&page=all&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&aoh=15477878831060&_ct=1547787892920&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sandiegoreader.com%2Fnews%2F1999%2Fmar%2F18%2Fcover-when-everything-was-lost%2F
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..where is an Oswald signed guest register in Mexico in late Sept '63? Anyone?
??? Anyone else?
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Jerry Freeman asked (paraphrased): "Anyone else know where to find the pertinent pages of the Hotel del Comercio's guest register?"
My reply:
Beats the heck outta me, Jere. I looked for it for about half-an-hour the other day but couldn't find it.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Yes, Oswald went to Mexico City.
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Seriously?
Find a sheet of paper. Sign Oswald's name to it. Claim he was at your house today. What is so elaborate about that? CTers often raise that kind of defense of Oswald in other instances like his handwriting on the order form for the rifle. The difference, of course, is the corroborating evidence. There is no indication Oswald was in Oak Ridge, TN on that date. There is no handwriting analysis linking it to Oswald. The timeline of his known whereabouts makes it almost impossible for it to have been Oswald and there is no apparent reason for anyone to have faked his presence there on that date in a conspiracy scenario. Maybe some "researcher" might want to check out some other names on that list to determine if any such folks where there. Oswald's name is almost certainly a hoax after the fact. Someone signed his name there after 11.22 thinking it was amusing or trying to create some attention. There is just not enough information at this point to know for sure.
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Find a sheet of paper. Sign Oswald's name to it. Claim he was at your house today. What is so elaborate about that? CTers often raise that kind of defense of Oswald in other instances like his handwriting on the order form for the rifle. The difference, of course, is the corroborating evidence. There is no indication Oswald was in Oak Ridge, TN on that date. There is no handwriting analysis linking it to Oswald. The timeline of his known whereabouts makes it almost impossible for it to have been Oswald and there is no apparent reason for anyone to have faked his presence there on that date in a conspiracy scenario. Maybe some "researcher" might want to check out some other names on that list to determine if any such folks where there. Oswald's name is almost certainly a hoax after the fact. Someone signed his name there after 11.22 thinking it was amusing or trying to create some attention. There is just not enough information at this point to know for sure.
Dear Richard,
A couple of days ago I set up a new thread titled "Was LHO At The Atomic Energy Museum In July, 1963?"
Have you seen it? Several members have posted on it already.
As for this thread, do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City in late September, 1963.
Thanks,
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Excellent post, btw.
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Dear Richard,
A couple of days ago I set up a new thread titled "Was LHO At The Atomic Energy Museum In July, 1963?"
Have you seen it? Several members have posted on it already.
As for this thread, do you believe Oswald went to Mexico City in late September, 1963.
Thanks,
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Excellent post, btw.
"there is no apparent reason for anyone to have faked his presence there on that date"
Apparently true....BUT......What if Lee Oswald the agent had been sought as the person who had robbed a bank in Miami ( or any imaginary place)??? His signature could be used to support an alibi that He was in Oakridge Tenn at the time.....
I hasten to point out to you that some of Hoover's undercover agents were told that if they ever needed to contact the fBI without exposing the fact that they were undercover agents, they could pretend to rob a federally insured bank. This act would definitely put them in contact with the FBI because the FBI had jurisdiction over bank robberies ... (Richard Case Nagell used the tactic in El Paso in September of 1963....)
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Find a sheet of paper. Sign Oswald's name to it. Claim he was at your house today.
Could I sign it O H Lee? Or how about A Hidell?
Posted by: Tim Nickerson Today at 06:59:27 AM --- Yes, Oswald went to Mexico City.
Evidence? Besides the government's decree that he did.
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Could I sign it O H Lee? Or how about A Hidell?
Posted by: Tim Nickerson Today at 06:59:27 AM --- Evidence? Besides the government's decree that he did.
Now that you guys have your own thread to discuss Oswald's visit to Oak Ridge (which I set up for you), shall I delete this thread, and start a new one titled "Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?, take 2"?
Maybe you should give some thought to somehow transferring your Oak Ridge-based posts on this thread to that new one (which I set up for you), you know, so they don't just suddenly (and without further warning) disappear into the digital ethers?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Could I sign it O H Lee? Or how about A Hidell?
Posted by: Tim Nickerson Today at 06:59:27 AM --- Evidence? Besides the government's decree that he did.
Jerry, I believe the evidence is over whelming that Lee Oswald did go to mexico City..... there are dozens of people who saw him and had contact with him in Mexico...
I suspect the reason that Lee denied being in Mexico City is because he went out of bounds and made threats on JFK's life in an effort to convince the Cubans to issue a visa to Cuba. It was a very foolish thing to do, and later he realized that he had probably been recorded making that threat. After JFK was murdered, he knew that if a recording of him making the threat was aired he would be condemned and convicted of the murder. Therefore he had to deny that he's been to Mexico City....
I would not be surprised that after he returned from Mexico and during debriefing his handler had told him that he was a damned fool for going out of bounds and making such an outrageous threat.....
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Jerry, I believe the evidence is over whelming that Lee Oswald did go to mexico City..... there are dozens of people who saw him and had contact with him in Mexico...
I suspect the reason that Lee denied being in Mexico City is because he went out of bounds and made threats on JFK's life in an effort to convince the Cubans to issue a visa to Cuba. It was a very foolish thing to do, and later he realized that he had probably been recorded making that threat. After JFK was murdered, he knew that if a recording of him making the threat was aired he would be condemned and convicted of the murder. Therefore he had to deny that he's been to Mexico City....
I would not be surprised that after he returned from Mexico and during debriefing his handler had told him that he was a damned fool for going out of bounds and making such an outrageous threat.....
WALT,
David Josephs is, like you and most other CTers, a true believer that the evil, evil, evil CIA did it, but he says Oswald didn't go to Mexico City.
Can you rebut him on that?
https://kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-1
--- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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WALT,
David Josephs is, like you and most other CTers, a true believer that the evil, evil, evil CIA did it, but he says Oswald didn't go to Mexico City.
Can you rebut him on that?
https://kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-1
--- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
David Josephs is, like you and most other CTers, a true believer that the evil, evil, evil CIA did it,
I don't believe the CIA did it.... Although I'm no fan of the CIA...( An organization that completely contradicts our American values of human decency and christian charity) I don't believe "THE" CIA as an organization was behind the coup d etat.... And the reason I don't believe it was "THE" CIA is because many many CIA agents would have rebelled against such an outrageous, and treasonous, criminal act.... and JFK would have known that "THE" CIA was plotting to seize control of the government. This is not to say that there were not CIA people ( or EX CIA ) deeply involved .....
The plot was created by EX CIA agents..... but When Hoover and LBJ learned of the plot, the renegade CIA agents no longer had control...
he says Oswald didn't go to Mexico City. Can you rebut him on that?
I probably could.... But it would require more time and energy than I could muster....
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David Josephs is, like you and most other CTers, a true believer that the evil, evil, evil CIA did it,
I don't believe the CIA did it.... Although I'm no fan of the CIA...( An organization that completely contradicts our American values of human decency and christian charity) I don't believe "THE" CIA as an organization was behind the coup d etat.... And the reason I don't believe it was "THE" CIA is because many many CIA agents would have rebelled against such an outrageous, and treasonous, criminal act.... and JFK would have known that "THE" CIA was plotting to seize control of the government. This is not to say that there were not CIA people ( or EX CIA ) deeply involved .....
The plot was created by EX CIA agents..... but When Hoover and LBJ learned of the plot, the renegade CIA agents no longer had control...
he says Oswald didn't go to Mexico City. Can you rebut him on that?
I probably could.... But it would require more time and energy than I could muster....
WALT,
You're not willing to be convinced that the man Ruby shot didn't go to Mexico City?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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WALT,
You're not willing to be convinced that the man Ruby shot didn't go to Mexico City?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I'm always willing to hear an argument.... And there's nothing better that solidly proven FACTS....
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I'm always willing to hear an argument.... And there's nothing better that solidly proven FACTS....
Yeah?
And you feel you have such a corner on the Facts Market that you don't need to take any more in, or even to listen to someone else's interpretation of them?
Here's what James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio wrote recently at the EF:
I think I have said this before, but in a nutshell what I think David [Josephs] is ultimately going to do is redefine the whole Mexico City scenario. He is going to do it based upon the latest documents that the CIA did not want to declassify. I believe that in the end, these will be the new tenets of MC:
1. Oswald was not in Mexico City.
2. The short blonde guy [whom I've proved was "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov] did the charade.
3. Ochoa and Echeverria set up the phony transportation materials up and back.
4. [David A.] Phillips worked on the tapes and transcripts at the embassies, with Goodpasture covering up for him.
5. Once Hoover finally did some work in this area, he understood that is was all a pile of paper mache. He admitted this in private but not in public.
Comments?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Since James Angleton believed CIA's Soviet Russia Division had been penetrated by a KGB/GRU mole, and since I've always found SR6's(?) omnipresent Bill Bright a bit suspicious, I might be willing to substitute his name for Phillips' name, above.
EDIT: "Horsfall was the ubiquitous Bill Bright."
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter5.html
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I'm always willing to hear an argument.... And there's nothing better that solidly proven FACTS....
OK did we go through all this. From David Josephs ..... Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?
Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October.
Mr. STERN. Had you received any information about any other contacts with Russian officials by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. HOSTY. Not at that time.
Mr. STERN. What other information did you have at anytime about that?
Mr. HOSTY. On November 22, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I was advised that our Washington field office of the FBI had determined that he, Lee Oswald, had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr. STERN. After the assassination?
Mr. HOSTY. Right, sir.
Uhhh, not so much Mr. Hosty... you knew a week earlier and lied about it...
(http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/58caec6690c0c_63-10-22FBIMexi105-3702-not1980-124-10230-10424-OCTOBER22-INSWoosleygivestheScottOct16infotoFBI.thumb.jpg.8afcc873809856e222958fb017f21378.jpg)
We know that Allen Dulles was there [mainly] to make sure that the Agency's soiled panties wouldn't be showing. Anything further is speculation. However there was a CIA operative/Alpha 66/Mob/military connection somewhere along the line I feel sure.
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OK did we go through all this. From David Josephs ..... (http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2017_03/58caec6690c0c_63-10-22FBIMexi105-3702-not1980-124-10230-10424-OCTOBER22-INSWoosleygivestheScottOct16infotoFBI.thumb.jpg.8afcc873809856e222958fb017f21378.jpg)
We know that Allen Dulles was there [mainly] to make sure that the Agency's soiled panties wouldn't be showing. Anything further is speculation. However there was a CIA operative/Alpha 66/Mob/military connection somewhere along the line I feel sure.
Mr. HOSTY. On November 22, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I was advised that our Washington field office of the FBI had determined that he, Lee Oswald, had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr. STERN. After the assassination?
Mr. HOSTY. Right, sir.
This is a bare faced lie by Hosty.... It's common knowledge that Ruth Paine called Hosty on 10/8/63 and told him that she had a copy of a letter that Lee Oswald had written to the Russian Embassy...
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Here is one of the copies of the transit visa that Oswald applied for when he visited the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. This was supplied by the Cuban government. The signature was identified as belonging to Oswald.
The Cuban official - Sylvia Turan Duran - who typed out the forms has said for more than 55 years that the man she met was Lee Harvey Oswald.
(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/streams/2013/november/131119/2d9730521-131118-oswald-cuba-vmed-345p.nbcnews-fp-360-360.jpg)
Silvia Tirado de Duran (in 1963) is Mexican, for what it's worth.
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Yeah, Steve, and 5' 3.5" Sylvia Tirado de Duran described her "Oswald" as being short, blond-haired, blue-or-green-eyed, and weighing about the same as Eddie Lopez (199 119 lbs.).
Lee Harvey Oswald was 5' 9.5", brown-haired, grey-or-hazel-eyed, and weighed around 135 lbs.
"Third Secretary" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, however, was 5' 7", blond-haired, had blue eyes, and was, well, downright skinny.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Oh yeah, and Duran said her "Oswald" was cheaply dressed.
Isn't it interesting that the sweater vest Oswald was wearing in his Cuban Visa Application photo, above, was the same one he was wearing in three or four photos of him that were taken apparently fairly early on in his USSR sojourn? Point being: that passport-sized photo of him could have been taken in Minsk, and in fact it is very similar in format of other photos in his "Minsk Scrap Book," or whatever it was called.
Oswald had that sweater on 11/22/1963 so why should there be any doubt about the date of the photo in the visa application? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page) And, YES, Oswald did go to Mexico City in late Sept/early Oct 1963. The evidence for that is overwhelming.
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Oswald had that sweater on 11/22/1963 so why should there be any doubt about the date of the photo in the visa application? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page) And, YES, Oswald did go to Mexico City in late Sept/early Oct 1963. The evidence for that is overwhelming.
Dear Oscar,
The fact that Oswald was photographed several times in the USSR wearing that sweater vest means that that passport-sized Cuban visa application photo of him could have been taken there and provided to Sylvia Duran by short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced, suit-wearing KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov practically anytime before the assassination.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Oscar,
The fact that Oswald was photographed several times in the USSR wearing that sweater vest means that that passport-sized Cuban visa application photo of him could have been taken there and provided to Sylvia Duran by short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced, suit-wearing KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov practically anytime before the assassination.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
The problem with your theory is that it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence that Oswald was in Mexico City, Mudd Wrassler Tommy. Until solid evidence that corroborates your theory and disposes of the solid evidence that has Oswald in MC appears I'm afraid you have no choice but to accept the unpalatable (for you) plain facts.
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The problem with your theory is that it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence that Oswald was in Mexico City, Mudd Wrassler Tommy. Until solid evidence that corroborates your theory and disposes of the solid evidence that has Oswald in MC appears I'm afraid you have no choice but to accept the unpalatable (for you) plain facts.
Dear Oscar,
Does your "overwhelming evidence" include "Oswald was in Mexico City" statements by KGB-boys Nechiporenko, Yastkov, Kostikov and short, blond, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, blue-eyed, skinny, very thin-faced KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (who claimed in 1992 that he'd met with "emotional, revolver-packing" Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on ... gasp ... SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Oh yeah, and pro-Castro Sylvia Duran and Cuban Consuls Azcue and Miribal (the first two of whom must have felt very guilty indeed for having helped frame Oswald for the assassintion, otherwise how do we explain their describing him afterwards in such a way as to so obviously point a guilty finger at the above-mentioned short, blond, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, skinny, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB colonel, Nikolai Leonov?
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Silvia Tirado de Duran (in 1963) is Mexican, for what it's worth.
Thanks. And she wasn't really an "official"; according to the account by her and other Cuban consulate officials, she was a secretary/officer worker who took over the job a couple of months earlier (in August) after the previous secretary had been killed in a car crash. She said she met Azcue, the Cuban consul, at the funeral and offered to help the consulate out. So he hired her pending the arrival of a replacement from Havana. She said she left the job two days after the assassination.
And one more tidbit: Durado's name and phone number were written in Oswald's notebook/diary AND, most important, a note/piece of paper from her with her name and number was found among his possessions. She admitted to giving it to him when he visited the second time that Friday.
So, if he didn't go to MC how did he get that? Yes, we know: it was planted. "They" planted everything but couldn't fake a photo of him entering the embassy?
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Oswald had that sweater on 11/22/1963 so why should there be any doubt about the date of the photo in the visa application? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page) And, YES, Oswald did go to Mexico City in late Sept/early Oct 1963. The evidence for that is overwhelming.
Who says that CE-161 is the same sweater as in the 'visa app' photo? Let me guess...Marina right? ;D
Not saying I believe with all my heart that LHO did not make that Mexico City trip but so far.. from what I see, the evidence is underwhelming.
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Who says that CE-161 is the same sweater as in the 'visa app' photo? Let me guess...Marina right? ;D
Not saying I believe with all my heart that LHO did not make that Mexico City trip but so far.. from what I see, the evidence is underwhelming.
Dear Jerry,
Who's to say that Cuban visa application photo wasn't taken while Oswald was living in the USSR?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Thanks. And she wasn't really an "official"; she was a secretary/officer worker who took over the job a couple of months earlier (in August) after the previous secretary had been killed in a car crash. She met Azcue, the Cuban consul, at the funeral and offered to help the consulate out. So he hired here pending the arrival of a replacement. She left her job two days after the assassination.
And one more tidbit: Duran's name and phone number were written in Oswald's notebook/diary AND, most important, a note/piece of paper from her with her name and number was found among his possessions. She admitted to giving it to him when he visited the second time that Friday.
So, if he didn't go to MC how did he get that? Yes, we know: it was planted. They planted everything but couldn't fake a photo of him entering the embassy?
Dear Steve,
"They" being the KGB, or the CIA?
Although the KGB would have loved to have had a photo showing Oswald entering the Cuban Consulate or the Russian consulate (to fortify it's Russia and Cuba-protecting WW III "Kostikov-Oswald" Virus), it probably realized that it couldn't get away with faking it.
As regards Oswald's notebook/diary and Duran's contact information therein, it's possible that possible (or should I say probable?) KGB agents Marina or Ruth forged Oswald's scribblings on that.
AND, as regards the love note or whatever in Duran's handwriting, someone could have forged that, too.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Note the file here [apparently approved for release in Sept 2011] contains no redaction at all but was marked Secret. Why?
If they needed a phone bill from 1963 it could have been found [I feel certain] but what ever happened to that passport that was allegedly issued in ONE DAY in June '63?
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP10M00666R000503450002-3.pdf
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Quote from: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 09:24:57 PM
Oswald had that sweater on 11/22/1963 so why should there be any doubt about the date of the photo in the visa application? [CE-161] https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=544&tab=page
And, YES, Oswald did go to Mexico City in late Sept/early Oct 1963. The evidence for that is overwhelming.
Who says that CE-161 is the same sweater as in the 'visa app' photo? Let me guess...Marina right? ;D Mr. Rankin.
161?
Mrs. Oswald.
This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater.
(https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0272b.jpg)
Not saying I believe with all my heart that LHO did not make that Mexico City trip but so far.. from what I see, the evidence is underwhelming.
Why is CE-161 such a darker sweater than in the other pull-over sweater photos?.....
(http://landofancestors.com/uploads/posts/2013-05/1369797716_27.jpg) (https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/MoreMexicoMysteries/images/Oswald_Passport_F-194.jpg)
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Quote from: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 09:24:57 PM (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0272b.jpg)
Not saying I believe with all my heart that LHO did not make that Mexico City trip but so far.. from what I see, the evidence is underwhelming. Why is CE-161 such a darker sweater than in the other pull-over sweater photos?.....
(http://landofancestors.com/uploads/posts/2013-05/1369797716_27.jpg) (https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/MoreMexicoMysteries/images/Oswald_Passport_F-194.jpg)
Thanksgiving with brothers Robert Oswald and John Pic on November 1962. Notice the sweater Oswald is wearing. Look familiar!!! Also, while I'm not claiming any expertise in photo interpretation it appears that Oswald has a much more pronounced receding hairline in the much more recent visa photo than in the earlier photo taken in Minsk.
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Oswald was never in Mexico City.
The uber erudite David Joseph's has long proved that already.
Anything else on Oswald and Mexico City is pure supposition piled upon "what-if's" and therefore a complete waste of time.
Try as you might, you will NEVER be able to put Oswald there, simply because he wasn't. To drag it on is a mere exercise in typing, period.
As a challenge, I defy ANYONE to produce a photograph, ANY photograph of Oswald in Mexico City....just one. Walk:
See Replies #15 and #18
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... it appears that Oswald has a much more pronounced receding hairline in the much more recent visa photo than in the earlier photo taken in Minsk.
So now we're talking about a middle aged Oswald and a pull-over sweater that survived all it's mileage there and merely got darker over the years?
Moving on ...I thought it was strange how this alleged [1963] passport was issued the very next day. The Report had to address that anomaly preemptively-- simply because it was so absurdly convoluted...... On the same day a teletype was sent to Washington containing the names of 25 of the persons who applied for passports on that date in New Orleans, Oswald's name among them. On the right side of the Washington Passport Office copy of the teletype message, approximately parallel to his name, are the letters, "NO," written in red pencil.260 Oswald was issued a passport on June 25, 1963.261
Since there was no lookout card on Oswald, the passport was processed routinely. Twenty-four hours is the usual time for routinely granted passports to be issued. The handwritten notation, "NO," which appeared beside Oswald's name on the list of applicants from New Orleans, is a symbol for the New Orleans Passport Office that is routinely placed on incoming teletype messages by anyone of a group of persons in the teletype section of the Passport Office.263 No one looked at Oswald's file previously established with the Department.264 The Department, however, has informed the Commission that at the time the passport was issued there was no information in its passport or security files which would have permitted it to deny a passport to Oswald.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-15.html#june
No info concerning a former defector? Yeah right- OK-- Even today the routine processing of a USA passport is...are we ready?-----Routine Service Approximately 4-6 weeks from the time of application.
Expedited Service Within 3 weeks door-to-door.*
Expedited at Agency Within 8 business days from the time your application is received
https://www.us-passport-service-guide.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-a-passport.html
Why was Oswald's name the only one that had "NO" placed beside it supposedly because NO stood for New Orleans and 24 other New Orleans applicants apparently did not have NO written beside them? Who was behind this fraud? Who were the applicants before and after the Lee Oswald application? How long did it take to process their applications? Why did Lee's application misspell his mother's name...his aunts name...his wife's name..misstate his height...but, manage to spell photographer correctly when Lee consistently misspelled that word? Did not Oswald already have a passport issued in 1959 what about that one?
For reference .... CE-781 Application for passport 1963-- https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_781.pdf
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See Replies #15 and #18
OH (http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/emoticons/default_please.gif)
Discount replies #15 and #18 as fake news, fabrication, forgery, and false witness. Just read the other replies.
It is obvious that a cabal was involved to incriminate Fidel Castro and his Cuban regime in a plot to assassinate JFK and hopefully suffer a full force invasion by the Americans.
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Oswald, the CIA, and Mexico City November 19, 2013 by John Newman
Arguably, the most startling information so far brought to light by the release of these intelligence records is the CIA cover-up relating to Oswald?s visit to Mexico City.... CIA intercepts showed that someone impersonated Oswald in phone calls made to the Soviet embassy and the Cuban consulate and linked Oswald to a known KGB assassin ? Valery Kostikov ? whom the CIA and FBI had been following for over a year. The news of this impersonation and the link to Kostikov, learned within hours of President Kennedy?s assassination, electrified top government and intelligence officials and dominated their discussion in the immediate weeks following the assassination. It also became during the next 40 years one of the CIA?s most closely guarded secrets on the Oswald case. After President Kennedy?s assassination, documents show that the Agency created two more false stories in connection with Oswald?s Mexico City visit. The first cover story was that the CIA?s tapes of the phone calls had been erased before the assassination. The second cover story was that the CIA did not realize Oswald had visited the Cuban consulate until they looked into the matter after the assassination. The cover-up was apparently put in motion the day after the assassination by Anne Goodpasture (unless someone else altered the cables she sent after the fact) in the CIA station in Mexico City. But it was a sloppy coverup. Files released in the mid-1990s show she sent a cable at noon (1pm EST) on Nov. 23 stating that a voice comparison (between two intercepted phone calls) had not been made at the time of Oswald?s visit because one tape (presumably of the Saturday, Sept. 28 call)5 had been erased before another had been received (presumably from the Oct. 1 intercept ). It was unlikely this would have happened, however, as tapes were kept for at least two weeks before erasure.
More here....... https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/oswald-the-cia-and-mexico-city/#15
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It appears that Oswald has a much more pronounced receding hairline in the much more recent visa photo than in the earlier photo taken in Minsk.
Dear Oscar,
Which "earlier photo taken in Minsk" are you referring to?
I contend that the photo stapled to the Cuban visa application was taken in Minsk.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
"Why did Lee's application misspell his mother's name...his aunts name...his wife's name..misstate his height...but, manage to spell photographer correctly when Lee consistently misspelled that word?"
.......
Just curious, Jerry --
How many times did Oswald misspell "photographer"?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Oswald, the CIA, and Mexico City November 19, 2013 by John Newman More here....... https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/oswald-the-cia-and-mexico-city/#15
A good explanation for (Armageddon-fearing; wouldn't you be?) CIA's covering up certain Khrushchev and/or Castro-implicating aspects of Oswald's trip to Mexico City (if he went there, that is) is that the KGB planted a WW III virus in Oswald's CIA file on October 1, 1963.
It did this by having Aleksei Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora"), with witting or unwitting help from Igor Brykin and Guenter Schulz a few months earlier, make Valeri Kostikov's name "radioactive," and then having triple-agent Mexico City Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov volunteer Kostikov's "radioactive" (i.e., Department 13) name to an Oswald impostor (probably KGB colonel Nikolai Lernov) over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline on 10/01/63.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Did not Oswald already have a passport issued in 1959 what about that one?
Of course it was revoked----
(https://www.passport-collector.com/wp-content/uploads/LHOpp-2.jpg)
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Short answer? Nope. He was never in Mexico. Get a grip man. This has all been rehashed by those whom are way more erudite than you, okay?
*who, not whom
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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So now we're talking about a middle aged Oswald and a pull-over sweater that survived all it's mileage there and merely got darker over the years?
Moving on ...I thought it was strange how this alleged [1963] passport was issued the very next day. The Report had to address that anomaly preemptively-- simply because it was so absurdly convoluted...... https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-15.html#june
No info concerning a former defector? Yeah right- OK-- Even today the routine processing of a USA passport is...are we ready?----- https://www.us-passport-service-guide.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-a-passport.html
Why was Oswald's name the only one that had "NO" placed beside it supposedly because NO stood for New Orleans and 24 other New Orleans applicants apparently did not have NO written beside them? Who was behind this fraud? Who were the applicants before and after the Lee Oswald application? How long did it take to process their applications? Why did Lee's application misspell his mother's name...his aunts name...his wife's name..misstate his height...but, manage to spell photographer correctly when Lee consistently misspelled that word? Did not Oswald already have a passport issued in 1959 what about that one?
For reference .... CE-781 Application for passport 1963-- https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_781.pdf
It did appear that NO beside Oswald's name in the telex did arouse concerns but, once investigated, it turned out there was nothing strange or unusual about the issuance of a passport to Oswald in 24 hours. All of the persons that applied in NO for passports got it within 24 hours. For the sources see https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=195&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=195&tab=page) and https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=33&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=33&tab=page) and Testimony of Abram Chayes V H 335
Mr. DULLES. Isn't it usual in issuing a passport though to look, in addition to the lookout card, to look at the file you have on the individual?
Mr. CHAYES. No, sir; unless there is a lookout card, the passport is issued automatically on the basis of the local agency's determination of citizenship. There has to be evidence of citizenship.
Now let me say there are different ways in which this can come up, because for example a man may apply for a passport before a clerk of the court and that application would be forwarded to the Department. But even then the Department adjudicator would first look at the lookout file. If there is no card in the lookout file, all he would do is determine whether the application was complete, and whether satisfactory evidence of citizenship was presented, and whether on the face of it, you know, the oath was properly taken or any supplementary questionnaire resolved doubts.
And then would issue the passport. If there were a supplemental questionnaire or something like that, then he would probably go to the file.
In our agency there are special passport issuing offices, New Orleans is one of the big ones, we have one in New York, we have some others, there the system is very routinized.
Daily, and sometimes more than once daily, the agency will telegraph by Telex the name, date, and place of birth of its applicants, the people who have come in that day to make an application.
Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as Exhibit No. 952 the teletype that came in on Oswald. I think that would help the Commission to indicate how it comes in.
(Commission Exhibit No. 952 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. CHAYES. Yes.
Mr. COLEMAN. You had better explain the "NO" which is beside Oswald's name.
Mr. CHAYES. Yes; well here you see the Telex coming in from New Orleans, and there are 25 names on it with date of birth beside each name, and it is interesting that opposite Lee Harvey Oswald is capital letters "NO" which might be rather interesting except that it stands for New Orleans, and every Telex that comes from New Orleans has that mark on it. It is covered by our abbreviations manual, and one of your investigators made, of course with our knowledge in our office, but not in the Passport Office, a surprise visit to the Passport Office to make sure that they were, in fact, putting NO on these things, and they are. That is the designation of the office.
What happens is when these 25 names come in, the lookout file is searched for those names, and if there is no lookout card, then a responding Telex is sent back. It says here 561, OW561. That is this one, "All okay." OW is office to Washington. WO is Washington to office. So the control number of the outgoing from Washington is WO38, and it says that on your OW561, all the names were okay.
Now it is interesting, the Telex came in and it is stamped June 24, 4:19 p.m.--- June 24, 1963. It went out June 25, 10:57 a.m. and these 25 people all got the passports.
Now it is only on the basis of that kind of a system that you can get out a million passports in a way that really provides first class service to the American people. Miss Knight in her administration of the office, which extends back into the previous administration, has cut down the time from something like 2 weeks to 24 hours in most of the cases.
Mr. DULLES. Could the Passport Office itself prepare a lookout card on its own initiative on the basis let's say of a file like the Oswald file?
Mr. CHAYES. It would have prepared a lookout card on any person as to whom the file suggested that there were grounds for withdrawal, or denial of the passport......
In CE-1057 it was confirmed that it was routine for NO or NY to appear at the same location in the overwhelming majority of the telex. It was just a coincidence that NO appeared next to Oswlad's name.
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OH (http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/emoticons/default_please.gif)
Discount replies #15 and #18 as fake news, fabrication, forgery, and false witness. Just read the other replies.
It is obvious that a cabal was involved to incriminate Fidel Castro and his Cuban regime in a plot to assassinate JFK and hopefully suffer a full force invasion by the Americans.
Whatever makes you happy, Jerry.
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Oswald was never in Mexico City.
The uber erudite David Joseph's has long proved that already.
Anything else on Oswald and Mexico City is pure supposition piled upon "what-if's" and therefore a complete waste of time.
Try as you might, you will NEVER be able to put Oswald there, simply because he wasn't. To drag it on is a mere exercise in typing, period.
As a challenge, I defy ANYONE to produce a photograph, ANY photograph of Oswald in Mexico City....just one. Walk:
Johnny,
I haven't read all of David "Rudeness" Josephs' recent writings on this issue on James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio's website yet, but knowing that Josephs is a big fan of Armstrong's "Harvey and Lee" theory, suffice it to say that I'll be happy if he doesn't claim in his opus magus that "Lee" went to Mexico City instead of "Harvey."
LOL
Regardless, Josephs' bias, his C-minus level prose, and his tendency to try to "make points" by posing rhetorical questions suck, in my humble opinion, and it's all I can do to keep from throwing up while reading him.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Oscar Navarro wrote:
It appears that Oswald has a much more pronounced receding hairline in the much more recent visa photo than in the earlier photo taken in Minsk.
.......
Dear Oscar,
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what you're talking about, but let us not forget that Robert Oswald said that Lee's hair had gotten thinner and somewhat kinky during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, as though he'd received electro-shock or some other kind of medical treatment there.
"[H]e had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to Russia."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_r.htm
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Oscar,
Which "earlier photo taken in Minsk" are you referring to?
I contend that the photo stapled to the Cuban visa application was taken in Minsk.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
The one just outside the door with the checkered shirt. What's that photo taken in Minsk?
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Oscar Navarro wrote:
It appears that Oswald has a much more pronounced receding hairline in the much more recent visa photo than in the earlier photo taken in Minsk.
.......
Dear Oscar,
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what you're talking about, but let us not forget that Robert Oswald said that Lee's hair had gotten thinner and somewhat kinky during the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR, as though he'd received electro-shock or some other kind of medical treatment there.
"[H]e had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to Russia."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_r.htm
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I think Oswald's hair loss was due to emotional stress. Anyway, there's no evidence the visa application photo was taken anywhere other than in MC. I believe Ms. Duran told Oswald he needed to have passport type photos along with the application so, unless Oswald brought the photo with him from NO, he had to have had the photo taken in MC. Therefore, that's the evidence for a photo of Oswald in MC.
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For those of you who are really interested in Oswald's Mexico City adventure begin by reading the WR pages 730-36. There's a boatload of information there that can be accessed just by looking up the sources provided. It's a somewhat tedious project but it's very enlightening. The sources I recommend are as follows;
Marina Oswald testimony;Vol I H 23, 37, 45-50.
CE-15, 16, 17, 1142, 1143, 1404, 2119 (FBI Report Mexican Ministry of Interior...Immigration), 2120 (state Dept. memo from Mexican Govt.), 2121 (FBI Report Oswald visit to Mexico), 2131, CE-2190 (postcards from Mexico City), 2463, 2478, CE-2488 (Guide Map of Mexico City), 2489 (Fiesta Brava Pamphlet), CE-2533 - 40, CE-2564 (Oswald's visa application), Pamela Munford Vol IX H 225.
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I think Oswald's hair loss was due to emotional stress. Anyway, there's no evidence the visa application photo was taken anywhere other than in MC. I believe Ms. Duran told Oswald he needed to have passport type photos along with the application so, unless Oswald brought the photo with him from NO, he had to have had the photo taken in MC. Therefore, that's the evidence for a photo of Oswald in MC.
Dear Oscar,
There is no evidence that the photograph of Oswald attached to the Cuban Visa Application was taken in Mexico City other than Sylvia Duran's implying that it was, and under circumstances so strange (i.e., that world-traveler Oswald had forgotten to bring passport-sized photos of himself with him to be attached to the visa application) as to make one wonder if that little "He had to leave the Consulate to have some photos taken of himself at some place nearby" vignette wasn't spun out of whole cloth in order to emphasize the "fact" that the photo was taken in Mexico City, ... gasp ... not in the USSR (and provided to Duran by a KGB "Oswald Impostor" or KGB/DGI instruction-giver).
Sylvia Duran claimed that Oswald arrived at the Cuban Consulate around 11 AM, and that he had (strangely for world-traveler Oswald) failed to bring passport-sized photos of himself. She claimed that she told him where he could go locally to have the photographs taken, and that he left and came back with "four" photos at approximately 1 PM (John Newman says it must have been more like at 12:15 in order to avoid time conflicts with other events).
CORNWELL - Okay. Wait a minute. Just the first visit. Is there anything else about the first visit? Or, did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave?
TIRADO - To have photographs of himself.
CORNWELL - Okay. So your memory is that on the first occasion you also explained to him that he needed photographs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them.
TIRADO - Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has.
CORNWELL - All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did he return with the photographs?
TIRADO - With four photographs.
CORNWELL - Four of them.
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?
TIRADO - Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs.
CORNWELL - You told him some locations in town where ge could go? Were there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?
TIRADO - That I don't remember.
CORNWELL - All right. But at any rate you knew of some place at the time, mentioned one or two places to him?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who was standing in front of you?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - And what did you do at that time?
TIRADO - I filled out application.
Now what's interesting is that after the assassination, FBI agents canvassed all of the passport photo shops within walking distance of the Cuban diplomatic complex, but none of them remembered taking (four) photographs of Oswald about seven weeks earlier.
It's also interesting that Duran contradicts herself in her HSCA testimony, above, when she says (regarding whether or not there were any photo places near the Consulate), "That I don't remember," even though she'd agreed with Cornwell a few seconds earlier that Oswald got the photographs at some place not far from the Consulate, and that she had told him where he could get them.
Sylvia Duran said that the Oswald she dealt with looked just like the Oswald in the photograph (i.e., "she compared the photo with his face and clothing"), and that he was the same man who was later charged with assassinating JFK, but she incongruously described him in her combined statements to the Mexican police and to the HSCA as being skinny, about the same height as her (she was 5' 3.5" whereas Oswald was 5' 9.5"), as having blue or green eyes, blond hair, an elongated face (read "thin" face), and she even apparently told Eddie Lopez & Co. at some point that he was wearing a coat. (Remember that Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue described the Oswald he'd dealt with as wearing a Prince of Wales suit, as having blond or dark-blond hair, and as being around 35 years-old, thin, and having a very thin face. Hmm ... just like "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov).
(To be continued)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Quote from: Johnny Dolan on January 23, 2019, 05:42:42 PM..... "Short answer? Nope. He was never in Mexico. Get a grip man. This has all been rehashed by those whom are way more erudite than you, okay?"
*who, not whom - Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I didn't know that Webster had joined the forum. Also, I am not sure WHO the "you" is. Could Johnny be referring to Oscar?
I did review Oscar's links. The Warren Report stated that the NO on the passport Telex [that was amazingly processed and granted within 24 hours!!] had coincidentally been placed by Oswald's name. That has to be the umpteen-thousandth coincidence that exists in this case. I have long been aware of the trail of Lee went to Mexico 'evidence' conveniently "produced" by the Paine woman and Marina...the silver bracelet ...the postcards...the ticket stubs to a bullfight...Mexican brochures etc etc. How opportune it all was huh?
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Quote from: Johnny Dolan on January 23, 2019, 05:42:42 PM..... "Short answer? Nope. He was never in Mexico. Get a grip man. This has all been rehashed by those whom are way more erudite than you, okay?"
I didn't know that Webster had joined the forum. Also, I am not sure WHO the "you" is. Could Johnny be referring to Oscar?
I did review Oscar's links. The Warren Report stated that the NO on the passport Telex [that was amazingly processed and granted within 24 hours!!] had coincidentally been placed by Oswald's name. That has to be the umpteen-thousandth coincidence that exists in this case. I have long been aware of the trail of Lee went to Mexico 'evidence' conveniently "produced" by the Paine woman and Marina...the silver bracelet ...the postcards...the ticket stubs to a bullfight...Mexican brochures etc etc. How opportune it all was huh?
Dear Jerry,
I'm afraid it was you to whom Johnny was referring.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Have you had an opportunity to read my long post, above, yet?
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Dear Oscar,
There is no evidence that the photograph of Oswald attached to the Cuban Visa Application was taken in Mexico City other than Sylvia Duran's implying that it was, and under circumstances so strange (i.e., that world-traveler Oswald had forgotten to bring passport-sized photos of himself with him to be attached to the visa application) as to make one wonder if that little "He had to leave the Consulate to have some photos taken of himself at some place nearby" vignette wasn't spun out of whole cloth in order to emphasize the "fact" that the photo was taken in Mexico City, ... gasp ... not in the USSR (and provided to Duran by a KGB "Oswald Impostor" or KGB/DGI instruction-giver).
Sylvia Duran claimed that Oswald arrived at the Cuban Consulate around 11 AM, and that he had (strangely for world-traveler Oswald) failed to bring passport-sized photos of himself. She claimed that she told him where he could go locally to have the photographs taken, and that he left and came back with "four" photos at approximately 1 PM (John Newman says it must have been more like at 12:15 in order to avoid time conflicts with other events).
CORNWELL - Okay. Wait a minute. Just the first visit. Is there anything else about the first visit? Or, did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave?
TIRADO - To have photographs of himself.
CORNWELL - Okay. So your memory is that on the first occasion you also explained to him that he needed photographs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them.
TIRADO - Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has.
CORNWELL - All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did he return with the photographs?
TIRADO - With four photographs.
CORNWELL - Four of them.
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?
TIRADO - Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs.
CORNWELL - You told him some locations in town where ge could go? Were there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?
TIRADO - That I don't remember.
CORNWELL - All right. But at any rate you knew of some place at the time, mentioned one or two places to him?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who was standing in front of you?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - And what did you do at that time?
TIRADO - I filled out application.
Now what's interesting is that after the assassination, FBI agents canvassed all of the passport photo shops within walking distance of the Cuban diplomatic complex, but none of them remembered taking (four) photographs of Oswald about seven weeks earlier.
It's also interesting that Duran contradicts herself in her HSCA testimony, above, when she says (regarding whether or not there were any photo places near the Consulate), "That I don't remember," even though she'd agreed with Cornwell a few seconds earlier that Oswald got the photographs at some place not far from the Consulate, and that she had told him where he could get them.
Sylvia Duran said that the Oswald she dealt with looked just like the Oswald in the photograph (i.e., "she compared the photo with his face and clothing"), and that he was the same man who was later charged with assassinating JFK, but she incongruously described him in her combined statements to the Mexican police and to the HSCA as being skinny, about the same height as her (she was 5' 3.5" whereas Oswald was 5' 9.5"), as having blue or green eyes, blond hair, an elongated face (read "thin" face), and she even apparently told Eddie Lopez & Co. at some point that he was wearing a coat. (Remember that Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue described the Oswald he'd dealt with as wearing a Prince of Wales suit, as having blond or dark-blond hair, and as being around 35 years-old, thin, and having a very thin face. Hmm ... just like "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov).
(To be continued)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Silvia Duran's statement and the photographs is proof that Oswald had his picture taken in MC, MWT. You don't have to go to her HSCA testimony to find that out. Check it out here from her 11/23 interrogation by Mexican Security Police; https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=605&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=605&tab=page) see page 39 for her statement about the photographs.
......as a result: of which the speaker (Silvia Duran), in compliance with her duties, received all of data and filled out the appropriate application, and he (Oswald) left to return in the afternoon, this time with his photographs,..... from CE-2121, page 39.
Silvia Duran's statement of her recognizing Oswald as the man accused of shooting JFK;
......that all of the conversation that the speaker had with OSWALD, as well as that of consul ASCUE with him, was in the English language since he didn't speak any Spanish, and that upon seeing his photograph which appears in today's newpapers, specifically in the newspaper "El Dia", she immediately recognized and identified it as being the same person that she has been referring to as LEE HARVEY OSWALD.......from CE-2121, page 40.
If a dog bites you and leaves teeth marks it's not necessary to check if the dog had teeth, MWT. This dog has a mouthful of teeth.
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Quote from: Johnny Dolan on January 23, 2019, 05:42:42 PM..... "Short answer? Nope. He was never in Mexico. Get a grip man. This has all been rehashed by those whom are way more erudite than you, okay?"
I didn't know that Webster had joined the forum. Also, I am not sure WHO the "you" is. Could Johnny be referring to Oscar?
I did review Oscar's links. The Warren Report stated that the NO on the passport Telex [that was amazingly processed and granted within 24 hours!!] had coincidentally been placed by Oswald's name. That has to be the umpteen-thousandth coincidence that exists in this case. I have long been aware of the trail of Lee went to Mexico 'evidence' conveniently "produced" by the Paine woman and Marina...the silver bracelet ...the postcards...the ticket stubs to a bullfight...Mexican brochures etc etc. How opportune it all was huh?
You should try again, Jerry. Because you missed the mark by a mile. Read the entire post, in fact. See were I provided the pertinent portion of Abram Chayes testimony.
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No, it was in fact that Thomas Graves chap I refer to and no one else.
Whom else would I address it to Jerry?
He started another junk science thread was the gist of my comment.
Of course, divisive Thomas will do anything to sow discord, so naturally he tells you that post was for you.
It's all good Jerry.
Dear Johnny B. Bad,
"Junk science"?
Care to be specific?
Are you, like David "Rudeness" Josephs, an aficionado of Armstrong's "Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites" theory?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS It's interesting to note that Joseph's still hasn't figured out how to fit Mexico City KGB triple-agent "Byetkov*?" (Ivan Obyedkov; Bill Simpich agrees with me that they must be one-and-the-same) into his "the evil, evil, evil CIA did it" theory.
Oh yeah, and how does "Rudeness" deal with the fact that Duran and Azcue collectively described the guy who provided Duran with the Minsk photo of Oswald in such a way as to so clearly point a finger at 5' 7", blond-haired, blue-eyed, skinny, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov?
LOL
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Check it out here from her [Sylvia Duran] 11/23 interrogation by Mexican Security Police;
If a dog bites you ....
Has anyone here ever been 'interroragated' by the Federales? They [after a couple of sessions] would have you confess to shooting JFK.
Anyone else besides Sylvia? "Dog bites" :D Give me a break.
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Has anyone here ever been 'interroragated' by the Federales? They [after a couple of sessions] would have you confess to shooting JFK.
Anyone else besides Sylvia? "Dog bites" :D Give me a break.
Dear Oscar,
Did they torture Eusebio Azcue, too?
If not, then who made him say in 1978 that the "Oswald" he'd dealt with was blond-haired, thin, about 35 years-old, and had a very thin (i.e., an elongated) face? The evil, evil CIA?
And why did he say in 1978 that during the intervening years he'd never thought of "Oswald" as wearing a light-colored sweater that day in September 1963?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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You should try again, Jerry. Because you missed the mark by a mile. Read the entire post...
If I have missed the mark Oscar...I have worked damn hard to do it. I have studied the scat out of CE-2121.
The story was too much..too soon..and too pat. It even came out before Oswald was shot..how could that be? I can't find a version that can be copied and pasted. I wish I could take it smell by smell point by point.
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Has anyone here ever been 'interroragated' by the Federales? They [after a couple of sessions] would have you confess to shooting JFK.
Anyone else besides Sylvia? "Dog bites" :D Give me a break.
Are you implying that Silvia Duran was torchered? If so, were's the evidence!!!
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Dear Oscar,
Did they torture Eusebio Azcue, too?
If not, then who made him say in 1978 that the "Oswald" he'd dealt with was blond-haired, thin, about 35 years-old, and had a very thin (i.e., an elongated) face? The evil, evil CIA?
And why did he say in 1978 that during the intervening years he'd never thought of "Oswald" as wearing a light-colored sweater that day in September 1963?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I see that you're actually claiming that both Duran and Azcue were tortured. Well, where's the evidence? I have no idea why Azcue described Oswald in such a manner but he later appeared to recant on his description of Oswald when faced with evidence that Oswald was not whom he was describing. BTW, why hasn't Duran ever changed her confirmation that Oswald was the man who was at the Cuban consulate? Is she still being torchered by the Mexican police? And, btw, Duran never described Oswald as a 5'7" and thin. She said he was blond, short and dressed inelegantly, and got red in the face when angry. That's the "ruddy complexed" guy whom Julia Postal described.
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If I have missed the mark Oscar...I have worked damn hard to do it. I have studied the scat out of CE-2121.
The story was too much..too soon..and too pat. It even came out before Oswald was shot..how could that be? I can't find a version that can be copied and pasted. I wish I could take it smell by smell point by point.
OK, I guess that when faced with evidence that contradicts your beliefs cutting and running is an effective method of avoiding the issue. Why don't you address the part that was posted about the NO in Oswald's telex. You don't have to worry about not being able to cut and paste since it's available and handed to you in a platter. See testimony of Abram Chayes, Vol V H 335, CE-948 Question 1, CE-1057 Accuracy of statements confirmed.
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Dear Oscar,
Regarding your recent "torture" post to me, I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I meant.
I believe that short, thin, blond-haired, suit-wearing "Third Secretary"/"Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran with a passport-sized photograph of Oswald that had been taken in the USSR, and (perhaps in the company of a DGI officer or a corrupt Mexican policeman?) instructed her in what to do with it and what to say after the assassination about "Oswald" and her "dealings" with "him".
I believe that Duran may have been "tortured" by the Mexican Police after the assassination, and that she told them a tiny nugget of truth: that the "Oswald" she'd dealt with was short and blond-haired (i.e., just like Nikolai Leonov).
I do not believe Eusebeo Azcue was tortured by anyone, but that in 1978 he felt guilty about what had happened on 11/22/63, and decided to accurately describe the "Oswald" Duran had dealt with, i.e., that he was thin, blond-haired, very thin-faced, suit-wearing, and about 35 years old. In so doing, Azcue was practically screaming out "Nikolai Leonov!" to the HSCA.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Sylvia Duran was 5' 3.5" and described "Oswald" as about the same height as her.
Nikolai Leonov, at 5' 7", was only 3.5 inches taller than her, whereas Oswald, at 5' 9.5", was 6 inches taller than her.
During her HSCA testimony, Duran described her short, blond-haired, blue or green-eyed "Oswald" as "skinny" and as having "an elongated" face.
As regards the king of clothing "Oswald" was wearing, HSCA's Ed Lopez said to Duran words to the effect that she had earlier told him, off-the-record, that her "Oswald" was wearing a coat.
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Dear Oscar,
I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I meant.
I believe that short, blond-haired, suit-wearing "Third Secretary"/"Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran with a passport-sized photograph of Oswald that had been taken in the USSR, and was instructed by him (or a DGI officer) in what to say after the assassination about "Oswald" and her "dealings" with "him".
I believe that Duran may have been "tortured" by the Mexican Police after the assassination, and that she told them a tiny nugget of truth: that the "Oswald" she'd dealt with was short and blond-haired (i.e., just like Nikolai Leonov).
I do not believe Eusebeo Azcue was tortured by anyone, but that in 1978 he felt guilty about what had happened on 11/22/63, and decided to accurately describe the "Oswald" Duran had dealt with, i.e., that he was thin, blond-haired, very thin-faced, suit-wearing, and about 35 years old. In so doing, Azcue was practically screaming out "Nikolai Leonov!" to the HSCA.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
You quoted me on a post addressed to Jerry. Now, back to your reply. You posted "Did they torture Eusebio Azcue, too?" IMO, since it can't be proved that neither Azcue or Duran were tortured you are now resorting to accusing me of misrepresenting what it's pretty clear. Now it's "Duran may have been tortured". As to Silvia Duran's description of Oswald it's entirely possible that cultural bias may have played a part in her description of Oswald as blond. To a Latin (and I know this because I'm Latin) sometimes a person may be referred to as "Rubio", Spanish for blond, because the hair is lighter than normal. I know this from personal experience because my knickname since I was a kid is "Rubio" and my hair was light to medium brown (it's now peppered with a lot of gray). As for Duran's description of Oswald as being short that's a personal view and not necessarily one that would be shared by others. What's short to Duran might be medium height to another person. It's possible, and here I'm going out on a limb, that the young, black haired beauty liked taller men and for her a guy whom she might find unappealing she'll describe as being short. Hey, I can also indulge in speculation too, right!
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Are you implying that Silvia Duran was torchered? If so, were's the evidence!!!
Duran has been interviewed by numerous reporters/journalists and, to my knowledge, she's made the same claims she did in her HSCA testimony. She's still living and, again to my knowledge, some fifty years later stands by her account of meeting Oswald.
Besides, nobody is solely accepting her account. There's a great deal of corroborating evidence, physical, eyewitness and circumstantial, to her story.
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You quoted me on a post addressed to Jerry. Now, back to your reply. You posted "Did they torture Eusebio Azcue, too?" IMO, since it can't be proved that neither Azcue or Duran were tortured you are now resorting to accusing me of misrepresenting what it's pretty clear. Now it's "Duran may have been tortured". As to Silvia Duran's description of Oswald it's entirely possible that cultural bias may have played a part in her description of Oswald as blond. To a Latin (and I know this because I'm Latin) sometimes a person may be referred to as "Rubio", Spanish for blond, because the hair is lighter than normal. I know this from personal experience because my knickname since I was a kid is "Rubio" and my hair was light to medium brown (it's now peppered with a lot of gray). As for Duran's description of Oswald as being short that's a personal view and not necessarily one that would be shared by others. What's short to Duran might be medium height to another person. It's possible, and here I'm going out on a limb, that the young, black haired beauty liked taller men and for her a guy whom she might find unappealing she'll describe as being short. Hey, I can also indulge in speculation too, right!
Dear Oscar,
Regarding Duran's "Oswald''s" hair color, I find it hard to believe that her description of it as "blond" was just a case of "cultural bias" for two simple reasons:
1) Duran testified in English to the HSCA, and she spoke English quite well.
2) Eusebio Azcue described "Oswald" as having "blond, or dark-blond" hair.
If their "Oswald" had had medium-brown hair like Lee Harvey Oswald, would Azcue have described him as "blond, or medium-blond"?
Was Azcue suffering from "cultural bias," too? Do you really think he was trying to say the dude had light-brown to medium-brown hair?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Duran has been interviewed by numerous reporters/journalists and, to my knowledge, she's made the same claims she did in her HSCA testimony. She's still living and, again to my knowledge, some fifty years later stands by her account of meeting Oswald.
Besides, nobody is solely accepting her account. There's a great deal of corroborating evidence, physical, eyewitness and circumstantial, to her story.
"Torchered"! What the heck happened to spell check? :o But it get's in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
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"Torchered"! What the heck happened to spell check? :o But it get's in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
I pretended I didn't see it <g>.
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Are you implying that Silvia Duran was torchered? If so, were's the evidence!!!
Torchered? Is that when someone puts a torch up to somebody's Xxx-xxx
"Were's the evidence!!" ....Where is the evidence? [there I fixed it for you]
Really Oscar...slow down Bud and get a grip ;)
Sylvia was mistreated at the hands of Mexican authorities, and was bruised during her interrogation. The police asked if she had paid Oswald money, had a sexual relationship with him, and generally whether she had been involved in a conspiracy with Oswald to kill President Kennedy.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Sylvia_Durans_Interrogation.html
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It's 3:00 on the East Coast of the US. The forum shows 940 people on line here. The Education Forum is showing 46 people on line there. Why do we keep hearing about that paranoid stink tank of a forum on here? That Forum sucks. It's nothing more than a censored gathering place for DiEugenio's rump swabs and a place where he can shill his crap .
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Dear Oscar,
Regarding Duran's "Oswald''s" hair color, I find it hard to believe that her description of it as "blond" was just a case of "cultural bias" for two simple reasons:
1) Duran testified in English to the HSCA, and she spoke English quite well.
2) Eusebio Azcue described "Oswald" as having "blond, or dark-blond" hair.
If their "Oswald" had had medium-brown hair like Lee Harvey Oswald, would Azcue have described him as "blond, or medium-blond"?
Was Azcue suffering from "cultural bias," too? Do you really think he was trying to say the dude had light-brown to medium-brown hair?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
I just finished reading Silvia Duran's entire HSCA interview (phew) and, in a nutshell, this is what she said about Oswald's hair color; that it was a bit lighter than Gary Cornwell's eyebrows. https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKcornwellG.htm (https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKcornwellG.htm) This is the only picture of Gary Cornwall that I could find on the web. Having said this, all throughout her interview Ms. Duran is asked numerous times if Oswald was the man that looked like the picture shown in the newspapers, shown on TV, the man shown when Ruby shot Oswald, the man whose photo appears in the visa application, the man whom she met at the Cuban Consulate in MC. She was also asked how tall was Oswald and she said about as tall as Gary Cornwall and about her height. I don't know how tall Gary Cornwall is, but does it really matter! Does Duran's description of his hair color and his height outweigh the certainty of her statements that it was Oswald whom she met at the Cuban Consulate!!! Does it outweigh the fact that Oswald had her name and the phone # of the Cuban Consulate in his address book!!!! That it's Oswald's photo on the Cuban visa!!! Common people.
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I pretended I didn't see it <g>.
Thanks :)
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Torchered? Is that when someone puts a torch up to somebody's Xxx-xxx
"Were's the evidence!!" ....Where is the evidence? [there I fixed it for you]
Really Oscar...slow down Bud and get a grip ;)https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Sylvia_Durans_Interrogation.html
Silvia Duran was not beaten, tortured :), during her interrogations. That's directly from her HSCA testimony. In fact, that spunky little she wolf kicked one of the Mexican Security officers in the balls!! :D If anyone can lay claim to having been roughed up it was the Mexican Security police!!! :D I see that you have officially cooped out of discussing the issues I've raised. I figured.
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Silvia Duran was not beaten, tortured :), during her interrogations. That's directly from her HSCA testimony. In fact, that spunky little she wolf kicked one of the Mexican Security officers in the balls!! :D If anyone can lay claim to having been roughed up it was the Mexican Security police!!! :D I see that you have officially cooped out of discussing the issues I've raised. I figured.
"I see that you have officially cooped out of discussing the issues I've raised. I figured."
What the hell does that mean?
Let's not be coy.. I read that testimony and that testimony doesn't say that at all. Here..let's link it shall we?----
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm
CORNWELL - Okay. At any rate, what can you remember about the nature of the contact. between Azcue and Fidel?
TIRADO - Fidel asked him what happened exactly that day in the Consulate and Azcue tried to remember everything and he said what he knew, that Fidel was afraid of uh, if I was going to say something false to, because I was threatened by the police, and uh, Ascue says that no, that I was honest and I was not going to do anything false. that that was not the right thing, the truth...
Duran was interviewed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978. This testimony is classified. However, in 1979 Duran told the author, Anthony Summers that she told the HSCA that the man who visited the office was about her size (5 feet 3.5 inches). This created problems as Oswald was 5 feet 9.5 inches. When Summers showed Duran a film of Oswald taken at the time of his arrest, Duran said: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City."
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
So, which Silvia can we believe?
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"I see that you have officially cooped out of discussing the issues I've raised. I figured."
What the hell does that mean?
Let's not be coy.. I read that testimony and that testimony doesn't say that at all. Here..let's link it shall we?----
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
So, which Silvia can we believe?
She said this in her HSCA testimony about the questioning/interrogation by the Mexican federales/security:
CORNWELL - During the questioning on all the subject matters that you had mentioned, did they make a verbatim transcript?
TIRADO - They used a little machine. They say it is a stenograph or something like that.
CORNWELL - They made a stenograph record.
TIRADO - Yeah, and a man was writing.
CORNWELL - All the questions and all the answers?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did any of the procedures that we have asked you about cousel you to say anything to the police that was not the truth?
TIRADO - No, I don't think so. I don't have nothing to hide. So...
CORNWELL - Everything that you told them was the truth?
TIRADO - Yes.
"Everything that you told them was the truth? Yes."
Second, she has stated, to my knowledge, for more than 50+ years that the man who came to the consulate seeking a transit visa was Lee Oswald. If she saw him on film and didn't recognize him how does that contradict her specific statements that the man was Oswald? Besides, again, no one is relying solely on her eyewitness account. Those accounts can be unreliable. So we consider other corroborating evidence for her claims.
We have the photos on the visa application, we have Oswald's signatures on the applications (multiple copies), we have other witnesses saying they saw Oswald on the bus/at the hotel, we have the Mexican visa application with his signature, we have the signatures on the hotel registrar that was identified as his, we have Marina saying he went there, we have the Soviets saying he was there, we have Duran's note with her name and phone number among his possessions....
How much more evidence is needed?
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She said this in her HSCA testimony about the questioning/interrogation by the Mexican federales/security:
CORNWELL - During the questioning on all the subject matters that you had mentioned, did they make a verbatim transcript?
TIRADO - They used a little machine. They say it is a stenograph or something like that.
CORNWELL - They made a stenograph record.
TIRADO - Yeah, and a man was writing.
CORNWELL - All the questions and all the answers?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did any of the procedures that we have asked you about cousel you to say anything to the police that was not the truth?
TIRADO - No, I don't think so. I don't have nothing to hide. So...
CORNWELL - Everything that you told them was the truth?
TIRADO - Yes.
"Everything that you told them was the truth? Yes."
Second, she has stated, to my knowledge, for more than 50+ years that the man who came to the consulate seeking a transit visa was Lee Oswald. If she saw him on film and didn't recognize him how does that contradict her specific statements that the man was Oswald? Besides, again, no one is relying solely on her eyewitness account. Those accounts can be unreliable. So we consider other corroborating evidence for her claims.
We have the photos on the visa application, we have Oswald's signatures on the applications (multiple copies), we have other witnesses saying they saw Oswald on the bus/at the hotel, we have the Mexican visa application with his signature, we have the signatures on the hotel registrar that was identified as his, we have Marina saying he went there, we have the Soviets saying he was there, we have Duran's note with her name and phone number among his possessions....
How much more evidence is needed?
How much more evidence is needed?
How about a DNA sample.... Did the man leave a strand of hair on a pillow in the hotel room?
You can lead or prod a mule to the water trough, but there's no way that you can force the jackass to take a drink ......
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We have the photos on the visa application...Does not prove that Oswald went to Mexico
we have Oswald's signatures on the applications ...Does not prove that Oswald went to Mexico
we have other witnesses saying they saw Oswald on the bus/at the hotel...describe/link who they were and in detail their sworn testimony
we have the Mexican visa application with his signature....there was no visa to Mexico
we have the signatures on the hotel registrar that was identified as his....identified by who? And where is his signature at the Hotel Comercio photocopied along with the other visitors
we have Marina saying he went there...Oh Good Lord please!!! Marina was not with him
we have the Soviets saying he was there...Ah so trustworthy are you of the Ruskies :-\
we have Duran's note with her name and phone number among his possessions....That still does not prove he went to Mexico and can you provide a link to that entry?
How much more evidence is needed?....
Try starting all over again. (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
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[...]
Dear Steve M. Galbraith,
How do you explain Duran's describing, in 1978, the Oswald she'd dealt with on 9/27/63 as being about the same height as her (she was 5' 3.5"), skinny, blond-haired, blue or green-eyed, and having an elongated (i.e., very thin) face?
Also, how do you explain Eusebio Azcue's describing him as being blond-haired, thin, 35 years old, very thin-faced, and wearing a blue Prince-of-Wales suit with crossing red stripes?
Oh yeah, and as not being the same man that was charged with killing JFK about two months later?
Hint: Nobody at all physically impersonated Oswald in Mexico City, but short, thin, blond-haired, very thin-faced, "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikoli Leonov did provide Duran with a photo of Oswald that had been taken in the USSR, and maybe even told her and Eusebio Ascue what to do and say.
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How much more evidence is needed?
How about a DNA sample.... Did the man leave a strand of hair on a pillow in the hotel room?
You can lead or prod a mule to the water trough, but there's no way that you can force the jackass to take a drink ......
You're discussing the concept of DNA testing for events in 1963?
In any case, if they did test samples and it was Oswald's you'd just reject it as CIA disinformation. You think every piece of evidence implicating him is fake; why would you change with this?
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You're discussing the concept of DNA testing for events in 1963?
In any case, if they did test samples and it was Oswald's you'd just reject it as CIA disinformation. You think every piece of evidence implicating him is fake; why would you change with this?
It's clear that that the factitious, tongue in cheek remark, about DNA, followed by the old adage about the impossibility of forcing a person to accept an obvious fact by comparing them to a stubborn jackass..... went right over your head, Mr Galbraith......
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Find a sheet of paper. Sign Oswald's name to it.
Since that post, I did practice somewhat...and it is really not all that hard to do. However, I am certainly no accomplished forger.
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Since that post, I did practice somewhat...and it is really not all that hard to do. However, I am certainly no accomplished forger.
I,m not a handwriting expert, but I've studied Lee Oswald's writing and spelling enough to consider myself an expert on HIS writing and signature....
He did not sign the guest register at the Atomic Energy museum..... And Lee Oswald DID order the carcano, and he is the author of the "Dear Mr Hunt" note.
He did NOT fire the carcano and he did not shoot JFK or JD Tippit.....
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I'm not a handwriting expert, but I've studied Lee Oswald's writing and spelling enough to consider myself an expert on HIS writing and signature....
He did not sign the guest register at the Atomic Energy museum..... And Lee Oswald DID order the carcano, and he is the author of the "Dear Mr Hunt" note.
He did NOT fire the carcano and he did not shoot JFK or JD Tippit.....
Dear Walt,
Oswald was very probably not the author of the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter. The KGB was, and false defector Mitrokhin "gave it up" in order to establish his bona fides with our intelligence agencies.
You know, so that deeper secrets would remain uncovered?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walt,
Oswald was very probably not the author of the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter. The KGB was, and false defector Mitrokhin "gave it up" in order to establish his bona fides with our intelligence agencies.
You know, so that deeper secrets would remain uncovered?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Please explain why the KGB would want to create a forgery ( the Dear Mr Hunt note) and deliver it to the Dallas offices of H L Hunt at Hunt oil Company about three weeks before the murder of JFK.
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Please explain why the KGB would want to create a forgery ( the Dear Mr Hunt note) and deliver it to the Dallas offices of H L Hunt at Hunt oil Company about three weeks before the murder of JFK.
Dear Walt,
Well gosh, maybe to falsely implicate the American South's Far-Right oilmen in something Khrushchev and/or Castro had done -- the assassination of JFK?
Excerpt from a Martin Shackelford article at Ken Rahn's website:
[According to MI5 official historian Christopher Andrew and putative defector Vasili Mitrokhin in The Sword and the Shield], when the assassination occurred, the KGB's deputy chief [allegedly] told the Central Committee that "A reliable source" of the Polish intelligence services," an American entrepreneur and owner of a number of firms closely connected to the petroleum circles of the South [Hmm ... the guy Edward Clare Petty thought, based on some WW II Venona decrypts, was a long-term KGB "illegal" -- George de Mohrenschildt?], reported in late November that the instigators of this criminal deed were three leading oil magnates from the South of the USA--Richardson, Murchison and Hunt, all owners of major petroleum reserves in the Southern states who have long been connected to pro-fascist and racist organizations in the South."
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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It is quite obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy and J.D. Tippit. There is a lot of evidence that he tried to kill General Walker. He even tried to kill himself in Russia. Why do you all keep saying that this is not true? Please advise+
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It is quite obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy and J.D. Tippit. There is a lot of evidence that he tried to kill General Walker. He even tried to kill himself in Russia. Why do you all keep saying that this is not true? Please advise+
Dear Mark,
How do you know Oswald wasn't programmed in the USSR to kill charismatic, anti-Communist JFK?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Please advise+
Advise that you go back to the first page of this forum and start working through all the junk [fussing and tit for tat barbs]
Select pertinent information and see the real impossibilities of the government claims.
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Dear Walt,
Well gosh, maybe to falsely implicate the American South's Far-Right oilmen in something Khrushchev and/or Castro had done -- the assassination of JFK?
Excerpt from a Martin Shackelford article at Ken Rahn's website:
[According to MI5 official historian Christopher Andrew and putative defector Vasili Mitrokhin in The Sword and the Shield], when the assassination occurred, the KGB's deputy chief [allegedly] told the Central Committee that "A reliable source" of the Polish intelligence services," an American entrepreneur and owner of a number of firms closely connected to the petroleum circles of the South [Hmm ... the guy Edward Clare Petty thought, based on some WW II Venona decrypts, was a long-term KGB "illegal" -- George de Mohrenschildt?], reported in late November that the instigators of this criminal deed were three leading oil magnates from the South of the USA--Richardson, Murchison and Hunt, all owners of major petroleum reserves in the Southern states who have long been connected to pro-fascist and racist organizations in the South."
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Hmmmm Let's see.... The KGB forged a note dated Nov 8, 1963 and signed Lee Oswald's signature on it to implicate HL Hunt in the murder of JFK, but then they kept the note under wraps for twenty years ....long after the US Government had closed the book and convinced the pissant suckers that Lee Oswald was just a lone nut who murdered President Kennedy for no reason.
Question.... Is this rational to you?
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Hmmmm Let's see.... The KGB forged a note dated Nov 8, 1963 and signed Lee Oswald's signature on it to implicate HL Hunt in the murder of JFK, but then they kept the note under wraps for twenty years ....long after the US Government had closed the book and convinced the pissant suckers that Lee Oswald was just a lone nut who murdered President Kennedy for no reason.
Question.... Is this rational to you?
Dear Walter,
Who "kept it under wraps for 20 years"?
But to answer your question:
Sure, why not? I mean, I mean, I mean ... it just added more grist for the tinfoil-hat-conspiracies mill, all of which softened up and dummied down the American electorate so that by 2016, KGB-boy Putin's troll factory could successfully innundate us with fake news and influence the most gullible of us, the most ignorant of us, into "electing" his divisive, Russian-mobbed-up "useful idiot" as our president.
D'oh
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Who do you think wrote the note?
Harvey Oswald?
Lee Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald?
The evil, evil, evil CIA?
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Dear Walter,
Who "kept it under wraps for 20 years"?
But to answer your question:
Sure, why not? I mean, I mean, I mean ... it just added more grist for the tinfoil-hat-conspiracies mill, all of which softened up and dummied down the American electorate so that by 2016, KGB-boy Putin's troll factory could successfully innundate us with fake news and influence the most gullible of us, the most ignorant of us, into "electing" his divisive "useful idiot," Donald Trump, as our president.
D'oh
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Who do you think wrote the note?
Harvey Oswald?
Lee Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald?
The evil, evil, evil CIA?
WHEN did the "Dear Mr Hunt" note first surface in the public domain? I have not checked, but I know the note surfaced long after the Warren Commission closed the book that was given LBJ's stamp of approval that Lee Harrrrrrey Ossssssswald... (Boooooo Hisssss) was a damned cold blooded killer nut, who had no motive.
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Dear Walter,
Who "kept it under wraps for 20 years"?
But to answer your question:
Sure, why not? I mean, I mean, I mean ... it just added more grist for the tinfoil-hat-conspiracies mill, all of which softened up and dummied down the American electorate so that by 2016, KGB-boy Putin's troll factory could successfully innundate us with fake news and influence the most gullible of us, the most ignorant of us, into "electing" his divisive, Russian-mobbed-up "useful idiot" as our president.
D'oh
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Who do you think wrote the note?
Harvey Oswald?
Lee Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald?
The evil, evil, evil CIA?
What got Donald Trump into the White House? Was it not his bold promise to "drain the swamp" and get rid of those swamp denizens on the Potomac?
Those swamp rats.... are biting and trying to keep him from exposing them..... They've been very happy living off the pissant taxpayers and they are not going to retreat as long as they can get suckers like you to believe they are looking after your interests.
The gullible patsy who was lynched before he could talk was the author of the Dear Mr Hunt note.....
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WHEN did the "Dear Mr Hunt" note first surface in the public domain? I have not checked, but I know the note surfaced long after the Warren Commission closed the book that was given LBJ's stamp of approval that Lee Harrrrrrey Ossssssswald... (Boooooo Hisssss) was a damned cold blooded killer nut, who had no motive.
Right.
Which just proves my point, i.e., that it's never too late for the "KGB" to stir the pot, so that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists will have more to feast on.
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Did you notice the question I asked you at the end of my (edited while you were furiously typing away) post?
Here it is, again:
Who do you think wrote the note, Walter?
Harvey Oswald?
Lee Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald?
The evil, evil, evil CIA?
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What got Donald Trump into the White House? Was it not his bold promise to "drain the swamp" and get rid of those swamp denizens on the Potomac?
Those swamp rats.... are biting and trying to keep him from exposing them..... They've been very happy living off the pissant taxpayers and they are not going to retreat as long as they can get suckers like you to believe they are looking after your interests.
The gullible patsy who was lynched before he could talk was the author of the Dear Mr Hunt note.....
Dear Walter,
Oh my God, you must have read Clinton Cash.
You readin' Spygate, now?
(LOL)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You aren't a member of the NRA, or a follower of Stephen K. Bannon, the probable Trump Campaign official whom Trump (probably; we will see) directed to contact Roger "RFer" Stone regarding the release of more Russia-hacked emails by Putin's lackey-agent Julian Assange, are you?
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Right.
Which just proves my point, i.e., that it's never too late for the "KGB" to stir the pot, so that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists will have more to feast on.
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Did you notice the question I asked you at the end of my (edited while you were furiously typing away) post?
Here it is, again:
Who do you think wrote the note, Walter?
Harvey Oswald?
Lee Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald?
The evil, evil, evil CIA?
PS Did you notice the question I asked you at the end of my (edited while you were furiously typing away) post?
Were you blinded by the dazzling brilliance you were typing?.... I responded to your question...
The gullible patsy who was lynched before he could talk was the author of the "Dear Mr Hunt"note.....
FBI Dallas informer # S 179..... aka; Lee Harvey Oswald.
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PS Did you notice the question I asked you at the end of my (edited while you were furiously typing away) post?
Were you blinded by the dazzling brilliance you were typing? I responded to your question...
The gullible patsy who was lynched before he could talk was the author of the "Dear Mr Hunt"note.....
FBI Dallas informer # S 179..... aka; Lee Harvey Oswald.
Dear Walter,
Do you believe that the note was intended for cryptanalyst Hunt, but somehow never got to him, or ... gasp ... that it did, and, and, and ...?
OMG
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Oh my God, you must have read Clinton Cash.
You readin' Spygate, now?
(LOL)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You aren't a member of the NRA, or a follower of Stephen K. Bannon, the probable Trump Campaign official whom Trump (probably; we will see) directed to contact Roger Stone regarding the release of more Russia-hacked emails by Putin's lackey-agent Julian Assange, are you?
Question...Was President Donald Trump one of the denizens of the Washington D.C. swamp when he decided to seek the most powerful seat in the government?
Mr Trump knew this country was/is teetering on the edge of rebellion and he hopes to restore the pride that American citizens once exhibited.... Apparently you are perfectly happy to give up much of your God given freedom, and allow the swamp rats to take charge. ( Them rats know that guns in the hands of rat hunters are dangerous to their endeavors)
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Dear Walter,
If Lee Harvey Oswald wrote that note, how is it that he misspelled his middle name?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Has Donald Trump been laundering money for the
Russian Mafia since 1984?
https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Do you believe that the note was intended for cryptanalyst Hunt, but somehow never got to him, or ... gasp ... that it did, and, and, and ...?
OMG
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Do you believe that the note was intended for cryptanalyst Hunt, but somehow never got to him,
96 year old John Curington who was HL Hunt's right hand man for 14 years ....said the note surfaced in the Hunt Oil Company inner office mail at Hunt Oil headquarters in Dallas Texas. Mr Curington had a copy of the note ( or maybe the original) and produced it for author Mitchel Whitington, who printed a copy of the note on page 121 of his book... HL Hunt Motive and Opportunity
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Dear Walter,
If Lee Harvey Oswald wrote that note, how is it that he misspelled his middle name?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
If Lee Harvey Oswald wrote that note, how is it that he misspelled his middle name?
He didn't misspell his name.... Do you always sign your name exactly the same? I'm sure most folks don't always sign their name exactly the same.....
When He signed that note, Lee, probably was a mite nervous....and hasty....
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If Lee Harvey Oswald wrote that note, how is it that he misspelled his middle name?
He didn't misspell his name.... Do you always sign your name exactly the same? I'm sure most folks don't always sign their name exactly the same.....
When He signed that note, Lee, probably was a mite nervous....and hasty....
Dear Walter,
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Why should we trust a bunch of KGB officers, a pro-Castro Mexican bureaucrat, and a couple of Cuban diplomats when they say they met with ("a highly unstable") Oswald or "Oswald" in Mexico City in late September, 1963?
Regarding the former, why should we trust Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and, yep, that short, blond, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache," KGB Col. Nikolai Leonov who claimed in 1992 to have met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-packin' "Oswald" at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, 1963(!), and very well could have been the person who provided (the pro-Castro Mexican bureaucrat) Sylvia Duran with a taken-in-Minsk "passport-sized" photo of Oswald to be stapled to his Cuban Visa Application, and also could have been the (naturally) bad English-speaking and (over-the-top?) bad Russian-speaking person who impersonated Oswald over the phone down there?
"Because when they revealed this stuff, the Cold War was over, Tommy!"
Hint: Not as far as the Ruskies were concerned, Bucko.
"But, but, but Mudd Wrassler Tommy, what evidence do you have?"
"And, and, and ... why would those nice Russians or that nice Fidel Castro want to kill (charismatic, anti-Communist) JFK, anyway?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Edited and bumped in an attempt to get this thread back on topic.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
A very ineffective reply, Mr Mudd.... It conveys only that you're amused... Which ain't bad, there's far too many disgruntled and unhappy people in the US today....So yuk it up and have a good laugh...
BTW....There's a place ( hospital) down the road where many of the patients laugh continuously...
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A very ineffective reply, Mr Mudd.... It conveys only that you're amused... Which ain't bad, there's far many disgruntled and unhappy people in the US today....So yuk it up and have a good laugh...
BTW....There's a place ( hospital) down the road where many of the patients laugh continuously...
Dear Walter,
Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Mexico City Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, 1963, and, as your peace-loving KGB buddies say, visited the Soviet Consulate on that day, and on the next day (and, according to KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, on Sunday the 29th), as well?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Mexico City Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, 1963, and, as your peace-loving KGB buddies say, visited the Soviet Consulate on that day, and on the next day (and, according to KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, on Sunday the 29th), as well?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Mexico City Cuban Consulate
Yes, There's no doubt that Lee Oswald visited the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.....
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Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Mexico City Cuban Consulate
Yes, There's no doubt that Lee Oswald visited the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.....
Dear Walter,
What, other than the testimonies of Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and Alfredo Mirabal, leads you to that conclusion?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Exploring every thread...After Mrs Paine and Marina left New Orleans, Lee took off the next day ---
His neighbor was a Mr Eric Rogers [who claimed Oswald never spoke to him at all]
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the ladies in the station wagon?
Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags.
.........................
Mr. LIEBELER. (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture of a bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you if that looks like the bag.
Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like one of the bags?
Mr. ROGERS. That looks to me like it was.
..............................
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are pointing to No. A-l, which is a picture of Commission Exhibit No. 126 and do you think he had two bags that looked like "Commission Exhibit No. 126." Did he carry both in one hand?
Mr. ROGERS. One in each hand.
....................................
Mr. ROGERS. It was--they both look like the same size, and they were well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't know what he had in them.
Mr. LIEBELER. So in your estimation, he had two bags like Exhibit 126?
Mr. ROGERS. If I am not mistaken, they are the two bags that my wife and I identified when they came over to the house, somebody from Oklahoma. He was transferred down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. An FBI agent?
Mr. ROGERS. Yes.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rogers.htm
Now, the 'Oswald' that checked in at the Camercio Hotel was said to "have very few personal effects" according to the hotel maid [a Senora Garnica it looks like] Everything was carried in "a small brown zippered handbag".
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0399a.htm
What I would like to know is what happened then [in the meantime] to the luggage that Oswald took off with and how in hell the WC gang found a picture of one of those bags?
It seems they might have just mysteriously showed up in the Paine garage on 11-22-63. How did they get there?
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Exploring another angle...Consider the testimony of Pamela Mumford---
Mr. BALL. What did he say? Can you tell me his language as close as you can?
Miss MUMFORD. No, I can't really put it into his words; not at that stage. He then proceeded to tell us about himself.
Mr. BALL What did he say?
Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very much like to go to Australia.
He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.
And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying.
At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at all. But We noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mumford.htm
If 'Oswald's' passport had a Russian entry stamp on it than that would mean that...
He was using a passport that was obtained in 1959 and had been voided by the State Dept and would have been entirely useless for this quest to go to Cuba [which is a whole new topic] On the other hand the still at this time -supposedly- new passport that has never been produced and was applied for in 1963 and was allegedly stamped NOT FOR TRAVEL TO CUBA and would have been totally useless for the mission of going to Cuba.
Anyway, is this the same Oswald that wouldn't say 'hi' back to his neighbors in New Orleans but opens up his entire life story to a stranger on a bus?
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Exploring every thread...After Mrs Paine and Marina left New Orleans, Lee took off the next day ---
His neighbor was a Mr Eric Rogers [who claimed Oswald never spoke to him at all] http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rogers.htm
Now, the 'Oswald' that checked in at the Camercio Hotel was said to "have very few personal effects" according to the hotel maid [a Senora Garnica it looks like] Everything was carried in "a small brown zippered handbag".
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0399a.htm
What I would like to know is what happened then [in the meantime] to the luggage that Oswald took off with and how in hell the WC gang found a picture of one of those bags?
It seems they might have just mysteriously showed up in the Paine garage on 11-22-63. How did they get there?
how in hell the WC gang found a picture of one of those bags?
The FBI and the CIA were watching Lee's movements.... They probably had photos of him carrying his luggage and putting it in a locker at the MC bus station.
They would never trust an amateur agent completely.... They would have been watching to make sure he wasn't a double agent....
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They probably had photos of him carrying his luggage and putting it in a locker at the MC bus station.
Our real Lee Oswald would have been too cheap to use lockers. Also, why take all that stuff to Mexico and not bring them to your room? Regarding photos..I think there were photos of an impersonator that were never seen. How was this trip to Mexico really made and why all the fuss about it anyway [one day after the assassination]??
(https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/fig11.gif)
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Exploring another angle...Consider the testimony of Pamela Mumford---http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mumford.htm
If 'Oswald's' passport had a Russian entry stamp on it than that would mean that...
He was using a passport that was obtained in 1959 and had been voided by the State Dept and would have been entirely useless for this quest to go to Cuba [which is a whole new topic] On the other hand the still at this time -supposedly- new passport that has never been produced and was applied for in 1963 and was allegedly stamped NOT FOR TRAVEL TO CUBA and would have been totally useless for the mission of going to Cuba.
Anyway, is this the same Oswald that wouldn't say 'hi' back to his neighbors in New Orleans but opens up his entire life story to a stranger on a bus?
Oswald didn't need an American passport to travel to Cuba. According to Silvia Duran she was surprised that Oswald had not used the Communist Part USA to make arrangements for his travel to Cuba so it's clear that people got around the travel restrictions by using Mexico as a conduit to obtain Cuban travel visas. There were no travel restrictions between Mexico and Cuba. IMO, Oswald used his old US passport that showed he had been to the USSR and the FPCC ID's, paperwork and news clippings to demonstrate his bonafides as a communist sympathizer.
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Walt,
Would Oswald's admitting to Fritz that he'd gone to Mexico City (if he had indeed gone there) have been tantamount to his admitting he'd killed JFK?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS You say you don't know what "Lee" said.
Hmm
Well, what do you know with 100% certainty about this case?
Oswald in one of his final interrogations admitted to having visited Mexico but I don't think it is clear whether he was referring to visiting in 1963 or if he was referring to an earlier time. Like maybe when he was in the Marines.
I'm inclined to believe he did visit Mexico City in 1963.
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Oswald used his old US passport that showed he had been to the USSR...There were no travel restrictions between Mexico and Cuba.
There may not have been any travel restrictions for Mexican citizens. They would still had to have a valid passport. American citizens cannot get a Mexican passport. Also, why would he have then applied for a new USA one? And, what happened to that new one? Oscar...have you ever applied for a visa to anywhere?
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Oswald in one of his final interrogations admitted to having visited Mexico but I don't think it is clear whether he was referring to visiting in 1963 or if he was referring to an earlier time. Like maybe when he was in the Marines.
I'm inclined to believe he did visit Mexico City in 1963.
Jon ....I believe that it was the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald, that he denied ever being in Mexico City....He said that he'd been to Tijuana when he was a Marine, but that was the only time that he'd visited Mexico....
I'm sure that he was lying .....And the reason he was lying is because he'd gone waaaaaay out of bounds at the Cuban Embassy and pretended to be very angry with JFK and loudly proclaimed that JFK should be shot, and he just might do that.....
Lee knew that he'd been recorded making that threat and even though it was a hollow threat meant for the ears of Castro's agents, it was very incriminating....
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Jon ....I believe that it was the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald, that he denied ever being in Mexico City....He said that he'd been to Tijuana when he was a Marine, but that was the only time that he'd visited Mexico....
I'm sure that he was lying .....And the reason he was lying is because he'd gone waaaaaay out of bounds at the Cuban Embassy and pretended to be very angry with JFK and loudly proclaimed that JFK should be shot, and he just might do that.....
Lee knew that he'd been recorded making that threat and even though it was a hollow threat meant for the ears of Castro's agents, it was very incriminating....
Dear Walter,
I believe ...
... THAT YOU ARE FULL OF BEANS.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
I believe ...
... THAT YOU ARE FULL OF BEANS.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Nope!...Just ate some fried chicken.....
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There may not have been any travel restrictions for Mexican citizens. They would still had to have a valid passport. American citizens cannot get a Mexican passport. Also, why would he have then applied for a new USA one? And, what happened to that new one? Oscar...have you ever applied for a visa to anywhere?
There were no travel restrictions, period. American citizens didn't even need a US passport to get into Mexico. All they need was a birth certificate, a certificate of naturalization or just a signed pledge saying who they were if they claimed to be American. You would know this if you had read the link to CE-2119. If you would recall, in Oswald's case he was eventually given a Cuban visa thus waiving the requirement for a Russian visa because Oswald had claimed that he wanted to go to Russia via Cuba. And as stated previously the Communist party USA would make arrangements in advance with the Cuban consulate in MC to allow American fellow travelers to bypass the US travel restrictions to Cuba and thus avoid penalties imposed by the US government upon their return to the US because their US passports did not have stamped entry into Cuba. As to his acquiring a US passport that was done in June 28, 1963. Apparently Oswald's plans were to become some kind of hero for the Cuban Revolution by opening a chapter in NO. I don't see any evidence that as of that date he was planning to join the Cuban Revolution by either hijacking a plane or to go by way of Mexico so Oswald might have wanted a US passport to permit him to travel to the USSR of which he had expressed a desire (see CE-13). As to Oswald's new passport I don't see the significance of it's whereabouts. As far as my having ever applied for a visa I imagine my father and mother applied for some type of visa for me back in 1961. What does my having applied for a visa have to do with Oswald and his application for a Cuban visa?
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Dear Walter,
I believe ...
... THAT YOU ARE FULL OF BEANS.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Hey, MWT. I agree with you that Foghorn is indeed FOB but that's not the purpose of my post. If someone described a person as having sandy hair would that be considered as having blond hair?
See Confidential Informant T-6 NO description of the man handing out "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel" leaflets on August 9th in Canal St. It think she's describing Lee Harvey Oswald.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=782&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=782&tab=page)
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Hey, MWT. I agree with you that Foghorn is indeed FOB but that's not the purpose of my post. If someone described a person as having sandy hair would that be considered as having blond hair?
See Confidential Informant T-6 NO description of the man handing out "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel" leaflets on August 9th in Canal St. It think she's describing Lee Harvey Oswald.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=782&tab=page
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=782&tab=page)
Dear Oscar,
It looks as though Confidential Informant NO T-6 was pretty good at estimating Oswald's height (he was 5' 9.5"), weight (he weighed 133 lbs. at autopsy, and body type (he was thin), but lousy at estimating his age (he was only 23 at the time) and his hair color.
Regardless, Sylvia Duran said that the "Oswald" she'd dealt with was about the same height as her (she was 5' 3.5"), that he had blue or green eyes, and that he had an "elongated" face.
Nikolai Leonov not only had blond hair (i.e. like Marilyn Monroe or Tab Hunter) and was thin, but he was only 5' 7" tall, and yep, had blue eyes, and a very thin (i.e. elongated) face.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Oh yeah, and Leonov was 35 years-of-age on 9/27/63, and was in the habit of wearing a suit during working hours (seein' as how he was a "diplomat"), which jibes perfectly with the way Eusebio Azcue described the "Oswald" he'd allegedly dealt with on Friday, September 27, 1963.
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As to Oswald's new passport I don't see the significance of it's whereabouts.
A visa is placed/attached in the passport. That is why I asked. The whereabouts of that passport would be quite significant. If there was a passport presented and in place---the Warren supporters would herald a resounding 'there you go!'...lets not kid ourselves.
Probably thousands of Americans traveled to Cuba during the boycott days. Many went for medical reasons. Hospital care was much cheaper. I don't know that anyone was ever charged with an infraction. American citizens didn't even need a US passport to get into Mexico. All they need was a birth certificate, a certificate of naturalization or just a signed pledge saying who they were if they claimed to be American.
They didn't even need that much as I wrote pages ago. Perhaps you meant Cuba?
So, I still maintain the possibility that an imposter went to Mexico in Oswald's name and made everything for an elaborate show.
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A visa is placed/attached in the passport. That is why I asked. The whereabouts of that passport would be quite significant. If there was a passport presented and in place---the Warren supporters would herald a resounding 'there you go!'...lets not kid ourselves.
Probably thousands of Americans traveled to Cuba during the boycott days. Many went for medical reasons. Hospital care was much cheaper. I don't know that anyone was ever charged with an infraction. They didn't even need that much as I wrote pages ago. Perhaps you meant Cuba?
So, I still maintain the possibility that an imposter went to Mexico in Oswald's name and made everything for an elaborate show.
No, I meant Mexico. As what was needed to get to Cuba apparently what Oswald offered was good enough because the Cuban government granted him a visa. You want to believe there was an Oswald impostor that's your business but if a show is what you're looking for the actual Oswald visit was a pretty good show in and of itself. BTW, I don't see what purpose it would serve to have an Oswald impostor at the Cuban and Soviet consulates. Who's interest were served by coming up with this ruse?
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No, I meant Mexico. As what was needed to get to Cuba apparently what Oswald offered was good enough because the Cuban government granted him a visa. You want to believe there was an Oswald impostor that's your business but if a show is what you're looking for the actual Oswald visit was a pretty good show in and of itself. BTW, I don't see what purpose it would serve to have an Oswald impostor at the Cuban and Soviet consulates. Who's interest were served by coming up with this ruse?
Dear Oscar,
The Cuban government granted Oswald a visa to visit Cuba?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Whose interest was it in to have an emotional, "Communist," virtual Oswald "show up" at both consulates (and at the Soviet embassy on Sunday, September 29, according to "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikolai Leonov)?
Why, the KGB, of course. So that not only could it paint Oswald as someone who was emotionally capable of killing an American president, but to establish the "fact" that he had met with "Department 13" Valiery Kostikov at the Soviet consulate on Saturday, September 28 -- as "verified" by KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline to an Oswald impostor (probably Nikoloi Leonov, himself) on Tuesday, October 1.
Why?
To plant a "WW III Virus" in Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA file, to ensure that Armeggedon-fearing CIA and egg-on-face-fearing FBI would cover up all evidence of Soviet and Cuban complicity in the assassination, ergo, e.g., Karamessine's desperate entreaties to the Mexican Police to "go easy" on Sylvia Duran.
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... the Cuban government granted him a visa.
So what? He was already working at the TSBD.
I don't see what purpose it would serve to have an Oswald impostor at the Cuban and Soviet consulates. Who's interest were served by coming up with this ruse?
I have already answered that.
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Dear Oscar,
The Cuban government granted Oswald a visa to visit Cuba?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Whose interest was it in to have an emotional, "Communist," virtual Oswald "show up" at both consulates (and at the Soviet embassy on Sunday, September 29, according to "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikolai Leonov)?
Why, the KGB, of course. So that not only could it paint Oswald as someone who was emotionally capable of killing an American president, but to establish the "fact" that he had met with "Department 13" Valiery Kostikov at the Soviet consulate on Saturday, September 28 -- as "verified" by KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline to an Oswald impostor (probably Nikoloi Leonov, himself) on Tuesday, October 1.
Why?
To plant a "WW III Virus" in Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA file, to ensure that Armeggedon-fearing CIA and egg-on-face-fearing FBI would cover up all evidence of Soviet and Cuban complicity in the assassination, ergo, e.g., Thomas Karamessines' desperate entreaties to the Mexican Police to "go easy" on Sylvia Duran, and CIA's refusing to admit for so many years that Oswald (actually virtual Oswald) had visited the Cuban consulate, etc.
Added onto A LOT and bumped.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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And all of this coming from the guy who first thought the CIA did it, then thought that Oswald did it, and who now thinks the KGB did it. Some "research" you got going on there Gravovich. BS: Oh I get it, you figure if you just cover all bases and spread them out you are bound to be right someday right? Hit and miss much in the research department Gravovich? LOL Thumb1:
Dear Johnny B. Bad,
Yep, I made the mistake of seeing JFK, and of reading (in no particular order) Crossfire, and JFK and the Unspeakable, and The Man Who Knew Too Much, and Plausible Denial, and Deep Politics and the Assassination of JFK, and Oswald and the CIA, and Bloody Treason, and Somebody Would Have Talked, and The Ghost, and Simpich's State Secret, and about five other "the evil, evil, evil CIA did it" books that I can't remember the titles of now, but then, luckily, I read Spy Wars and Ghosts of the Spy Wars, and Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA, and ... gulp ... Legend, ... and I'll be darned if I didn't start to see the light.
Why do you ask, Johnny?
Do you think it's better to be close-minded or something?
Question: Have you figured out who Duran's and Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City" was, yet?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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You want to believe there was an Oswald impostor that's your business
Are you being disingenuous there or cynical or both? Any reader can see what I wrote..... I still maintain the possibility that an imposter went to Mexico in Oswald's name and made everything [seem like] an elaborate show.
The show being about a rampant pro-Castro communist. Then as it seems, Oswald became a humble mealy stock boy at a book supply like nothing ever happened.
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No, I meant Mexico. As what was needed to get to Cuba apparently what Oswald offered was good enough because the Cuban government granted him a visa. You want to believe there was an Oswald impostor that's your business but if a show is what you're looking for the actual Oswald visit was a pretty good show in and of itself. BTW, I don't see what purpose it would serve to have an Oswald impostor at the Cuban and Soviet consulates. Who's interest were served by coming up with this ruse?
And an impostor that, according to the Cuban and Soviet personnel, made quite a scene. Duran and Azcue said Oswald raised a ruckus and had to be physically escorted out of the building. Azcue told him, "The Revolution doesn't need people like you."
Then this impostor goes to the Soviet Embassy and is, according to the KGB officers/Soviet Embassy staffers, hysterical and emotional. He pulls out a revolver and says he needs it to protect himself. He says the "notorious FBI" is after him. Quite a scene.
But this supposedly Oswald fake is trying to get a visa? Two of them. Visas with photos and signatures on them. That he had to provide? And he pulls stunts like this?
The Soviet Embassy in Washington had photos of Oswald; he lived there for several years and all citizens were required to have internal passports. Plus they had his application for a visa with his photo. So this fake Oswald goes to get a visa and Washington approves it and sends it to Mexico City. When the Soviet officials receive it and look at the photo and see this impostor is just that: an impostor, what would happen?
This whole idea of faking him is completely illogical given what he had to do - provide photos, give his signatures - once there.
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And an impostor that, according to the Cuban and Soviet personnel, made quite a scene. Duran and Azcue said Oswald raised a ruckus and had to be physically escorted out of the building. Azcue told him, "The Revolution doesn't need people like you."
Then this impostor goes to the Soviet Embassy and is, according to the KGB officers/Soviet Embassy staffers, hysterical and emotional. He pulls out a revolver and says he needs it to protect himself. He says the "notorious FBI" is after him. Quite a scene.
But this supposedly Oswald fake is trying to get a visa? Two of them. Visas with photos and signatures on them. That he had to provide? And he pulls stunts like this?
The Soviet Embassy in Washington had photos of Oswald; he lived there for several years and all citizens were required to have internal passports. Plus they had his application for a visa with his photo. So this fake Oswald goes to get a visa and Washington approves it and sends it to Mexico City. When the Soviet officials receive it and look at the photo and see this impostor is just that: an impostor, what would happen?
This whole idea of faking him is completely illogical given what he had to do - provide photos, give his signatures - once there.
Dear Steve M. Galbraith,
Have you considered the possibility that not only did Oswald not go to Mexico City, but that no one physically impersonated him there?
It could very well be that, just like the guy Duran and Azcue collectively described as their "Oswald in Mexico City" (short, blond, skinny, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced), "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran with Oswald's taken-in-the-USSR photo, and told her and her colleagues what to do and say (with approval from Castro, of course).
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Unless you'd rather believe that the evil, evil, evil "Deep State" CIA killed JFK.
LOL
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Are you being disingenuous there or cynical or both? Any reader can see what I wrote..... The show being about a rampant pro-Castro communist. Then as it seems, Oswald became a humble mealy stock boy at a book supply like nothing ever happened.
Your "humbly mealy stock boy" was telling people (the Paines for example) that he was a Marxist and that he detested the American political and economic systems.
In fact, according to Michael Paine and (others who were there) he attended an ACLU meeting where he stood up and warned about the far right in Dallas (Walker specifically) and got into a disagreement - reportedly a near fight - with another member over their disagreements. He said he didn't like the ACLU because it wasn't "political" enough.
Sure he was quiet on the job because he didn't want to get fired - again - for expressing his anti-US views. But he was still agitating for Castro and for his Marxist beliefs. Correction: Not true on that last point about Castro. But he was still describing himself as a Marxist to others.
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Your "humbly mealy stock boy" was telling people (the Paines for example) that he was a Marxist and that he detested the American political and economic systems.
That proves he went to Mexico?
In fact, according to Michael Paine and (others who were there) he attended an ACLU meeting where he stood up and warned about the far right in Dallas (Walker specifically) and got into a disagreement - reportedly a near fight - with another member over their disagreements. He said he didn't like the ACLU because it wasn't "political" enough.
That proves he went to Mexico?
Sure he was quiet on the job because he didn't want to get fired - again - for expressing his anti-US views. But he was still agitating for Castro and for his Marxist beliefs.
That proves he went to Mexico? Let's stick to the topic OK?
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Are you being disingenuous there or cynical or both? Any reader can see what I wrote..... The show being about a rampant pro-Castro communist. Then as it seems, Oswald became a humble mealy stock boy at a book supply like nothing ever happened.
Jerry FWIW.... I believe that the cretins who were setting Lee up had another man at hand in Mexico City while Lee was there.... They had the second man there to impersonate lee, and cover for him and create confusion if anybody tried to tail Lee Oswald....
The fact that they confused many can be seen in the fact that there are many who still doubt that Lee went to Mexico City....
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Oswalds were coming out of the woodwork before Nov 22. Lee was not supposed to have been in Dallas during the month of September...however the FBI filed this report----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=511
Too bad that application got tossed away. I would like to have seen it.
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Are you being disingenuous there or cynical or both? Any reader can see what I wrote..... The show being about a rampant pro-Castro communist. Then as it seems, Oswald became a humble mealy stock boy at a book supply like nothing ever happened.
Nice little word game you're playing there, Jerry. By claiming the possibility of something and then inserting [seem like] after the fact you can affirm or deny anything that suits you. Who's really the disingenuous one here, Jerry? Also, Oswald was pretty much disillusioned in being rejected by the Cuban consulate and did in fact appear to have cooled off with his enthusiasm for a Cuban adventure. Upon his return from MC he began looking for work, I believe became more interested in learning how to drive and there's no evidence that he wanted to resume his FPCC activities.
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And an impostor that, according to the Cuban and Soviet personnel, made quite a scene. Duran and Azcue said Oswald raised a ruckus and had to be physically escorted out of the building. Azcue told him, "The Revolution doesn't need people like you."
Then this impostor goes to the Soviet Embassy and is, according to the KGB officers/Soviet Embassy staffers, hysterical and emotional. He pulls out a revolver and says he needs it to protect himself. He says the "notorious FBI" is after him. Quite a scene.
But this supposedly Oswald fake is trying to get a visa? Two of them. Visas with photos and signatures on them. That he had to provide? And he pulls stunts like this?
The Soviet Embassy in Washington had photos of Oswald; he lived there for several years and all citizens were required to have internal passports. Plus they had his application for a visa with his photo. So this fake Oswald goes to get a visa and Washington approves it and sends it to Mexico City. When the Soviet officials receive it and look at the photo and see this impostor is just that: an impostor, what would happen?
This whole idea of faking him is completely illogical given what he had to do - provide photos, give his signatures - once there.
In other words, the crazier the circumstances the more reason for believing there was a plot. It reminds me of those Rube Goldberg creations that had really complicated machines doing very simple tasks.
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Dear Steve M. Galbraith,
Have you considered the possibility that not only did Oswald not go to Mexico City, but that no one physically impersonated him there?
It could very well be that, as Duran and Azcue collectively described their "Oswald in Mexico City," short, blond, skinny, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran with Oswald's passport-sized photo, and told her and her colleagues what to do and say (with approval from Castro, of course).
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Unless, of course, you're deadset in believing that the evil, evil, evil "Deep State" CIA killed JFK.
LOL
As I have already pointed out Duran could have easily confused Oswald's grey eyes for blue just as FBI informer T-6 did. I'll also add Oswald's Selective Service registration card has Blue eyes for Oswald https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=713&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=713&tab=page) Grey eyes can be easily confused for blue eyes. You're treating a 15 year old memory as if it's the Holy Grail yet ignore the countless times Duran identified Oswald in 1963 as the man seen in the photos who was accused of shooting JFK and the photos of Oswald being shot by Ruby. You also ignore her testimony that the man whom she met at the Cuban consulate in MC and whose photos she handled for the Cuban transit visa application she identified as Oswald, the man who is accused of shooting JFK and being shot by Ruby.
It appears that being hung up on a theory based on nothing but heresay and fantasy is more important than using the evidence that is available and unassailable to reach a logical conclusion. That's what I would describe as the essence of the entire premise behind the many different theories that go against the basic conclusions reached by the WC about Oswald.
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Your "humbly mealy stock boy" was telling people (the Paines for example) that he was a Marxist and that he detested the American political and economic systems.
In fact, according to Michael Paine and (others who were there) he attended an ACLU meeting where he stood up and warned about the far right in Dallas (Walker specifically) and got into a disagreement - reportedly a near fight - with another member over their disagreements. He said he didn't like the ACLU because it wasn't "political" enough.
Sure he was quiet on the job because he didn't want to get fired - again - for expressing his anti-US views. But he was still agitating for Castro and for his Marxist beliefs.
I agree with everything you say except that I think Oswald became disillusioned with Castro.
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That proves he went to Mexico?That proves he went to Mexico? That proves he went to Mexico? Let's stick to the topic OK?
Does Oswald's employment at the TSBD confirm that he did not go to MC? Where the heck was Oswald between Sept 26th and October 3rd, 1963 if not on his way to Mexico, in MC and on his way back from MC?
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I agree with everything you say except that I think Oswald became disillusioned with Castro.
I'm not sure about that. He expressed anger at the Cuban consulate officials - especially Azcue - for turning down his request for a visa. But I don't think he blamed Castro for their acts. Did he ever tell anyone about his change in views?
I think he truly believed that once he showed the Cubans in Mexico City his pro-Castro activity that he had done in New Orleans that summer that they would welcome him to their "Revolution." So he was quite upset at the turn down. But remember they did grant him that transit visa later on. Although there's no evidence that I've seen that he knew about it.
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Does Oswald's employment at the TSBD confirm that he did not go to MC?
No one claimed that. Why are you inventing statements that were never made?
Where the heck was Oswald between Sept 26th and October 3rd, 1963 if not on his way to Mexico...?
The strawman argument again---If Oswald was not in Mexico then where was he? We don't know where else he could have been..therefor he must have been in Mexico.
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Oswald's visa picture. The very same picture appears as CE-2788.
The Report states that CE-2788 is a picture that was taken after "his [Oswald's] return from Russia". I cannot understand how he was sent by the Cuban embassy to have his visa picture taken in the first week of October '63 and then he comes back with this identical picture :-\
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce2788.jpg) (http://www.blather.net/blather_img/oswald%20visa%20application%20cuba%20400%20wide.jpg)
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Oswald's visa picture. The very same picture appears as CE-2788.
The Report states that CE-2788 is a picture that was taken after "his [Oswald's] return from Russia". I cannot understand how he was sent by the Cuban embassy to have his visa picture taken in the first week of October '63 and then he comes back with this identical picture :-\
Duran said she asked him for several copies of photos for his application (I believe it was four). She had to make carbon copies of his application and then attach a photo to each one. One photo wouldn't do since she had to send one copy of the application to Havana and keep one or two for the consulate records.
So isn't reasonable to believe that he had copies of that photo? He simply went back to his hotel and got them? Since she wanted multiple photos maybe that was the only one he had with multiple copies/versions.
I deleted the photos to save space/bandwidth.
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Oswald's visa picture. The very same picture appears as CE-2788.
The Report states that CE-2788 is a picture that was taken after "his [Oswald's] return from Russia". I cannot understand how he was sent by the Cuban embassy to have his visa picture taken in the first week of October '63 and then he comes back with this identical picture :-\
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce2788.jpg) (http://www.blather.net/blather_img/oswald%20visa%20application%20cuba%20400%20wide.jpg)
Dear Jerry,
What's so hard to understand about the following scenario (bearing in mind that the Armeggedon-fearing and FBI-protecting Warren Commission mistakenly assumed that the photo of Oswald had been taken after he returned to the U.S.):
Short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Third Secretary / Assistant Cultual Attache" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov not only impersonated Oswald over the phone in Mexico City, but provided Sylvia Duran with the taken-in-Minsk photo of him, and told her and her colleagues what to do and say (with permission from Fidel Castro, of course).
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS It's interesting to note that in this scenario, The Man Who Was Not There (Oswald) "somehow failed to take passport-sized photos of himself to the Cuban Consulate (even though he was a seasoned international traveler and must have passed several photo shops on his way from Hotel del Comercio to the Consulate that morning) and had to leave the Consulate and come back a couple of hours later with some taken-in-Mexico City photos of himself" ...
Why in the world would the KGB/DGI create such an implausible narrative?
... Well, to emphasize the "fact" that The Man Who Was Not There (Oswald) had -- LOL -- "actually been in Mexico City."
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Oswald's visa picture. The very same picture appears as CE-2788.
The Report states that CE-2788 is a picture that was taken after "his [Oswald's] return from Russia". I cannot understand how he was sent by the Cuban embassy to have his visa picture taken in the first week of October '63 and then he comes back with this identical picture :-\
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce2788.jpg) (http://www.blather.net/blather_img/oswald%20visa%20application%20cuba%20400%20wide.jpg)
There can be no rebuttal to Lee Oswald denying that he had been in Mexico City during the very first interrogation on Nov 22, 1963. Clearly FBI agent and Lee Oswald KNEW the ramifications of Lee's visit to Mexico City...
Hosty caught hell from his boss, Gordon Shanklin for asking Lee if he'd been to Mexico City and Lee got very angry for being asked about Mexico City.....
Shanklin yanked Hosty from the interrogation sessions because He broached the subject.....It should be obvious that Lee DID go to Mexico City, and there were serious ramifications that were connected to that visit to MC.
It's been reported that Lee Oswald loudly threatened to kill JFK while he was at the Cuban Embassy.... and Hosty knew that.....
So the immediate question that would have been raised if the public had known...Would have been .... So The FBI KNEW that Lee Oswald had threatened to shoot the President Of the United States, and he wasn't arrested the instant he stepped foot in the US??? WHY wasn't he arrested???
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There can be no rebuttal to Lee Oswald denying that he had been in Mexico City during the very first interrogation on Nov 22, 1963. Clearly FBI agent and Lee Oswald KNEW the ramifications of Lee's visit to Mexico City...
Hosty caught hell from his boss, Gordon Shanklin for asking Lee if he'd been to Mexico City and Lee got very angry for being asked about Mexico City.....
Shanklin yanked Hosty from the interrogation sessions because He broached the subject.....It should be obvious that Lee DID go to Mexico City, and there were serious ramifications that were connected to that visit to MC.
It's been reported that Lee Oswald loudly threatened to kill JFK while he was at the Cuban Embassy.... and Hosty knew that.....
So the immediate question that would have been raised if the public had known...Would have been .... So The FBI KNEW that Lee Oswald had threatened to shoot the President Of the United States, and he wasn't arrested the instant he stepped foot in the US??? WHY wasn't he arrested???
So "they" let Hosty and Fritz tell the WC that Oswald denied going to Mexico City?
You think all of this was a frameup of Oswald and yet you believe Hosty and Fritz - two main players in the framing of him - werent' ordered to say that Oswald admitted going to Mexico City? They said he denied it? Even though the whole WC was, for you, a fake?
And it wasn't his visit to MC that was potentially serious: it was his meeting with Valery Kostikov at the Soviet Embassy. Kostikov was believed to be in charge of assassination activities for the KGB in the Western Hemisphere. Of course, it makes no sense that Oswald would go directly to the Embassy to meet his handler. He'd go somewhere where the CIA wasn't monitoring things.
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There can be no rebuttal to Lee Oswald denying that he had been in Mexico City during the very first interrogation on Nov 22, 1963. Clearly FBI agent and Lee Oswald KNEW the ramifications of Lee's visit to Mexico City...
Hosty caught hell from his boss, Gordon Shanklin for asking Lee if he'd been to Mexico City and Lee got very angry for being asked about Mexico City.....
Shanklin yanked Hosty from the interrogation sessions because He broached the subject.....It should be obvious that Lee DID go to Mexico City, and there were serious ramifications that were connected to that visit to MC.
It's been reported that Lee Oswald loudly threatened to kill JFK while he was at the Cuban Embassy.... and Hosty knew that.....
So the immediate question that would have been raised if the public had known...Would have been .... So The FBI KNEW that Lee Oswald had threatened to shoot the President Of the United States, and he wasn't arrested the instant he stepped foot in the US??? WHY wasn't he arrested???
Why, indeed, Walter.
Either the evil, evil, evil FBI conspired with the evil, evil, evil CIA to kill JFK in such a way as to ensure the nuking of Russia and/or the invasion of Cuba (LOL), or ... gasp ... Oswald didn't go to Mexico City at all, and was impersonated over the phone down there, by KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (who also provided the taken-in-Minsk photo of Oswald to Sylvia Duran), in a scripted conversation with KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov, in which Obyedkov "volunteered" the radioactive name "Kostikov" to Leonov/"Oswald" so that a Khruschev and Castro-protecting WW III Virus could be planted in Oswald's CIA file.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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So "they" let Hosty and Fritz tell the WC that Oswald denied going to Mexico City?
You think all of this was a frameup of Oswald and yet you believe Hosty and Fritz - two main players in the framing of him - werent' ordered to say that Oswald admitted going to Mexico City? They said he denied it? Even though the whole WC was, for you, a fake?
And it wasn't his visit to MC that was potentially serious: it was his meeting with Valery Kostikov at the Soviet Embassy. Kostikov was believed to be in charge of assassination activities for the KGB in the Western Hemisphere. Of course, it makes no sense that Oswald would go directly to the Embassy to meet his handler. He'd go somewhere where the CIA wasn't monitoring things.
Why did Lee become very angry after Hosty asked him if he'd been to Mexico City ? ( Actually Hosty had Fritz ask the question)
Why Did Gordon Shanklin reprimand Hosty for bringing up Lee Oswald's visit to Mexico City?
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Why did Lee become very angry after Hosty asked him if he'd been to Mexico City ? ( Actually Hosty had Fritz ask the question)
Why Did Gordon Shanklin reprimand Hosty for bringing up Lee Oswald's visit to Mexico City?
Dear Walter,
Maybe because he didn't want to let the putitive "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had apparently not only met with Castro's people in Mexico City, but had met with highly radioactive (thanks to a KGB triple-agent, hoodwinked J. Edgar Hoover's "Fedora") KGB officer Valeri Kostikov?
Just a wild guess.
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Maybe because he didn't want to let the putitive "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had (apparently) met with radioactive (thanks to a KGB triple-agent, Hoodwinked Hoover's "Fedora") Kostikov in Mexico City?
Just a wild guess.
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Hey Mudd....forget the lunatic laughter..... You said you wanted to debate....
Now then....explain this...."Maybe because he didn't want to let the putitive "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had (apparently) met with radioactive (thanks to a KGB triple-agent, Hoodwinked Hoover's "Fedora") Kostikov in Mexico City?"
Maybe because he (Whose "he") didn't want to let the putitive (you meant putative or reputed) "cat out of the bag" but that doesn't make much sense ) that Oswald had (apparently) met with radioactive ?? Was he from Hiroshima? (thanks to a KGB triple-agent, Hoodwinked Hoover's "Fedora") Kostikov in Mexico City?
Perhaps you should omit the adjectives and the lunatic laughter.......
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Duran said she asked him for several copies of photos for his application (I believe it was four). She had to make carbon copies of his application and then attach a photo to each one.
So isn't reasonable to believe that he had copies of that photo? He simply went back to his hotel and got them? Since she wanted multiple photos maybe that was the only one he had with multiple copies/versions.
Where did she say 'make several copies? please link your support.
There are 2 photos for a visa. One goes on the application and one gets pasted in the visa that is attached to the passport.
Which again was never produced. If there is a passport, the Cubans may still have it and should have or should still produce it to the State Dept. Example....
(https://warwick.ac.uk/study/international/immigration/othervisas/whatvisa/images/tier_1_general_-_edited.jpg?maxWidth=400)
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Dear Walter,
Maybe because he didn't want to let the putitive "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had apparently not only met with Castro's people in Mexico City, but had met with highly radioactive (thanks to a KGB triple-agent, hoodwinked J. Edgar Hoover's "Fedora") KGB officer Valeri Kostikov?
Just a wild guess.
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Why Did Gordon Shanklin reprimand Hosty for bringing up Lee Oswald's visit to Mexico City?
Is this the question that you were responding to when you wrote......
Maybe because he didn't want to let the "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had not only met with Castro's people in Mexico City, but had met with KGB office, Valeri Kostikov?
Please connect the dots..... So what if (IF??) LHO had met with Castros people in MC ??.... We know that Castro's people told him to get out of the embassy, and people like him were not an asset to the revolution...
I cannot understand your POV......
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Why Did Gordon Shanklin reprimand Hosty for bringing up Lee Oswald's visit to Mexico City?
Is this the question that you were responding to when you wrote......
Maybe because he didn't want to let the "cat out of the bag" that Oswald had not only met with Castro's people in Mexico City, but had met with KGB office, Valeri Kostikov?
Please connect the dots..... So what if (IF??) LHO had met with Castros people in MC ??.... We know that Castro's people told him to get out of the embassy, and people like him were not an asset to the revolution...
I cannot understand your POV......
Dear Walter,
Have you ever noticed that all of the people in Mexico City who claimed they'd dealt with with The-Man-Who-Was-Not-There (Oswald), described him as being emotionally unballanced and potentially violent, four of them (KGB boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and Leonov) even going so far as to claim that he was packin' a revolver?
Point being: KGB's and DGI's painting Oswald this way reinforced the WW III Virus that was to go into effect during the sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone call between "Lee Oswald" and KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov on Tuesday October 1, 1963, during which phone call Obyedkov "volunteered" to "Oswald" that the diplomat he'd he'd met with four days earlier was the KGB dude who was supposedly in charge of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, (Valeri) "Kostikov."
Khrushchev and Castro collaborated in killing JFK, and ensured that neither the Kremlin nor Havana would be nuked by L.B.J. by planting this WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on October 1, 1963, intentionally making it look as though Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination (which they were, btw).
Kinda like John Newman's WW III Virus, except that James Jesus Angleton didn't orchestrate its planting, the KGB did!
What is it about my "POV" that you don't "get," Walter?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Have you ever noticed that all of the people in Mexico City who claimed they'd dealt with with The-Man-Who-Was-Not-There (Oswald), described him as being emotionally unballanced and potentially violent, four of them (KGB boys Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and Leonov) even going so far as to claim that he was packin' a revolver?
Point being: Khrushchev and Castro collaborated in killing JFK, and ensured that neither the Kremlin nor Havana would be nuked by L.B.J. by planting a WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on October 1, 1963.
Kinda like John Newman's WW III Virus, except that James Jesus Angleton didn't orchestrate its planting, the KGB did!
What is it about my "POV" that you don't "get," Walter?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Khrushchev and Castro collaborated in killing JFK, and ensured that neither the Kremlin nor Havana would be nuked by L.B.J. by planting a WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on October 1, 1963.
If this theory were sound, then K &C would quietly have embraced Lee Oswald....and set him up with solid reinforcement from ranks of men they could rely on. Naturally they would have wanted Lee killed ASAP, after the murder, to cut any ties to them.... One of the first things Castro would have done would have been to release the tape of Lee Oswald yelling, "Somebody should shoot that SOB " and evidence that his agents had booted Oswald from the Cuban Embassy. And then he would have had his agents in the autopsy room where they could make sure that only wounds from a weapon to the rear were reported .
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Khrushchev and Castro collaborated in killing JFK, and ensured that neither the Kremlin nor Havana would be nuked by L.B.J. by planting a WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on October 1, 1963.
If this theory were sound, then K &C would quietly have embraced Lee Oswald....and set him up with solid reinforcement from ranks of men they could rely on. Naturally they would have wanted Lee killed ASAP, after the murder, to cut any ties to them.... One of the first things Castro would have done would have been to release the tape of Lee Oswald yelling, "Somebody should shoot that SOB " and evidence that his agents had booted Oswald from the Cuban Embassy. And then he would have had his agents in the autopsy room where they could make sure that only wounds from a weapon to the rear were reported .
Dear Walter,
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Have you ever considered the possibility that the "evil, evil, evil" CIA/FBI/ONI conducted JFK's autopsy in such a way as to obscure the fact that JFK's head had been blown apart by two Ruskie and/or Cuban snipers?
You know, so as to prevent WW III?
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Dear Walter,
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS Have you ever considered the possibility that the "evil, evil, evil" CIA/FBI/ONI conducted JFK's autopsy in such a way as to obscure the fact that JFK's head had been blown apart by two Ruskie and/or Cuban snipers?
You know, so as to prevent WW III?
Have you ever considered the possibility that the CIA/FBI/ONI conducted JFK's autopsy in such a way as to obscure the fact that JFK's head had been blown apart by two Ruskie and/or Cuban snipers?
The whole idea was to blame Castro, so the MOB and Big Oil could start operating in Cuba again...... Hoover was paranoid and thought Castro's empire just 90 miles from the US coastline was a serious threat ...He would NEVER have acquiesced to covering up for Castro.... What are you using for a brain today?
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Have you ever considered the possibility that the CIA/FBI/ONI conducted JFK's autopsy in such a way as to obscure the fact that JFK's head had been blown apart by two Ruskie and/or Cuban snipers?
The whole idea was to blame Castro, so the MOB and Big Oil could start operating in Cuba again...... Hoover was paranoid and thought Castro's empire just 90 miles from the US coastline was a serious threat ...He would NEVER have acquiesced to covering up for Castro.... What are you using for a brain today?
Dear Walter,
Hoover would have covered up for Castro and/or Khrushchev for three reasons:
1) Like any human being, he wouldn't want to die in a Mutually Assured Destruction-guaranteed nuclear Armeggedon with the USSR.
2) He would't want to be caught with "egg on his face" for not having prevented the assassination.
3) He didn't care for JFK very much, anyway.
D'oh
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Hoover would have covered up for Castro and/or Khrushchev for three reasons:
1) Like any human being, he wouldn't want to die in a Mutually Assured Destruction-guaranteed nuclear Armeggedon with the USSR.
2) He would't want to be caught with "egg on his face" for not having prevented the assassination.
3) He didn't care for JFK very much, anyway.
D'oh
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Hoover would have covered up for Castro and/or Khrushchev for three reasons:
1) Like any human being, he wouldn't want to die in a Mutually Assured Destruction-guaranteed nuclear Armeggedon with the USSR.
If you knew that you would die as a consequence of act of killing a criminal who was holding a hand grenade (insuring mutual destruction ) would you pull the trigger?
The vast majority would not....because self preservation is THE number one driving force in life.... Hoover like many of the war hawks in the Pentagon weren't afraid of the Russians... so he would NEVER have covered up for them...
2) He would't want to be caught with "egg on his face" for not having prevented the assassination.
Agreed.....But he'd have been covered with egg if it was learned that he knew that LHO had loudly threatened the life of JFK and he had not had him arrested the instant he stepped on US soil....
3) He didn't care for JFK very much, anyway.
I gotta hand it to ya, Mudd.... I don't believe that there's ever been a greater understatement posted in this group.....Can you say LOATH?.....
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Hoover would have covered up for Castro and/or Khrushchev for three reasons:
1) Like any human being, he wouldn't want to die in a Mutually Assured Destruction-guaranteed nuclear Armeggedon with the USSR.
If you knew that you would die as a consequence of act of killing a criminal who was holding a hand grenade (insuring mutual destruction ) would you pull the trigger?
The vast majority would not....because self preservation is THE number one driving force in life.... Hoover like many of the war hawks in the Pentagon weren't afraid of the Russians... so he would NEVER have covered up for them...
2) He would't want to be caught with "egg on his face" for not having prevented the assassination.
Agreed.....But he'd have been covered with egg if it was learned that he knew that LHO had loudly threatened the life of JFK and he had not had him arrested the instant he stepped on US soil....
3) He didn't care for JFK very much, anyway.
I gotta hand it to ya, Mudd.... I don't believe that there's ever been a greater understatement posted in this group.....Can you say LOATH?.....
Dear Walter,
Do you think Hoover wanted the American public to believe that Khruschev and/or Castro had assassinated JFK, you know, so we would invade 'em, or nuke 'em, or something?
Do you think Hoover's "lone nutter" Warren Report was written the way it was to protect the evil, evil, evil CIA and the evil, evil, evil FBI from being uncovered as the real agents behind the assassination?
Do you think Hoover really believed that Oswald had done it all by him widdle self?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Dear Walter,
Do you think Hoover wanted the American public to believe that Khruschev and/or Castro had assassinated JFK, you know, so we would invade 'em, or nuke 'em, or something?
Do you think Hoover's "lone nutter" Warren Report was written the way it was to protect the evil, evil, evil CIA and the evil, evil, evil FBI from being uncovered as the real agents behind the assassination?
Do you think Hoover really believed that Oswald had done it all by him widdle self?
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Do you think Hoover wanted the American public to believe that Khruschev and/or Castro had assassinated JFK, you know, so we would invade 'em, or nuke 'em, or something?
I donno.... I don't think Hoover gave a damn who might be endangered if his patsy ( LHO) escaped the blame.... He was confident that he and LBJ could dupe the public into accepting the turn coat rat, commie, Lee Harrrrrrrvey Osssssswald was the cold blooded killer.
Do you think Hoover's "lone nutter" Warren Report was written the way it was to protect the evil, evil, evil CIA and the evil, evil, evil FBI from being uncovered as the real agents behind the assassination?
YES!
Do you think Hoover really believed that Oswald had done it all by him widdle self?
Hell NO!!..... Hoover KNEW who murdered John Kennedy..... He knew that HE and LBJ stood on the side lines and cheered, after promising the killers they would cover for them.
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No one claimed that. Why are you inventing statements that were never made? The strawman argument again---If Oswald was not in Mexico then where was he? We don't know where else he could have been..therefor he must have been in Mexico.
Then as it seems, Oswald became a humble mealy stock boy at a book supply like nothing ever happened.
As I said. Does his being hired by the TSBD mean Oswald didn't go to MC? If this is not the reverse of what I think you're implying by the above comment then what do you mean by making the above comment.
Considering that all the evidence available places Oswald in MC if the claim is made that Oswald wasn't in MC then it's up to the claimant to show evidence to support the claim.
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Oswald's visa picture. The very same picture appears as CE-2788.
The Report states that CE-2788 is a picture that was taken after "his [Oswald's] return from Russia". I cannot understand how he was sent by the Cuban embassy to have his visa picture taken in the first week of October '63 and then he comes back with this identical picture :-\
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce2788.jpg) (http://www.blather.net/blather_img/oswald%20visa%20application%20cuba%20400%20wide.jpg)
As happens many times Jerry leaves out a very important piece of information. CE-2788 "Photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald after his return from Russia in late September 1963" Obviously the caption is mistaken in placing Russia instead of Mexico as Oswald was nowhere near Russia in November 1963. This is another example of how a simple mistake can be turned into a sinister attempt at a cover up with a simple act of omission.
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I'm not sure about that. He expressed anger at the Cuban consulate officials - especially Azcue - for turning down his request for a visa. But I don't think he blamed Castro for their acts. Did he ever tell anyone about his change in views?
I think he truly believed that once he showed the Cubans in Mexico City his pro-Castro activity that he had done in New Orleans that summer that they would welcome him to their "Revolution." So he was quite upset at the turn down. But remember they did grant him that transit visa later on. Although there's no evidence that I've seen that he knew about it.
There's a passage in Marina and Lee that mentions Oswald's disappointment with Fidel to the point where Lee was no longer interested in naming the expected new baby Fidel, which was what Lee wanted to name the baby (if it was a boy) before he left for MC.
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Duran said she asked him for several copies of photos for his application (I believe it was four). She had to make carbon copies of his application and then attach a photo to each one. One photo wouldn't do since she had to send one copy of the application to Havana and keep one or two for the consulate records.
So isn't reasonable to believe that he had copies of that photo? He simply went back to his hotel and got them? Since she wanted multiple photos maybe that was the only one he had with multiple copies/versions.
I deleted the photos to save space/bandwidth.
I'll vouch that Duran said four photos. Duran also pointed out to Lee there were several places he could get his photo taken. When she was asked if those places where near the Cuban consulate by the HSCA she did not remember that they were near. That comment has been erroneously taken as proof that Duran didn't tell Oswald about having his photos taken.
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There's a passage in Marina and Lee that mentions Oswald's disappointment with Fidel to the point where Lee was no longer interested in naming the expected new baby Fidel, which was what Lee wanted to name the baby (if it was a boy) before he left for MC.
Yes, good memory. I had forgotten about that.
Here's the account from the book. This is before he went to MC:
"Despite the harmony that presently prevailed between them, there was an occasional sign that it was not a case of two minds with but a single thought. They had always agreed that their next child, a boy, was to be named "David Lee." But for some time Lee had been turning another name over in his mind, and he cautiously broached it to Marina. He told her, stealing up a little on the subject, that he thought it might be a nice touch to call their new baby "Fidel."
Marina "reasserted herself in all her old magnificient asperity. "There is no Fidel and there will be no Fidel in out family."
However, later, after he returned from Mexico City, he told her: "Ah, they're such terrible bureaucrats that nothing came of it after all"....He was especially vociferous about the Cubans--"the same kind of bureaucrats as in Russia. No point going there......" Indeed, Lee's disenchantment with Castro and Cuba was complete. He never again talked about "Uncle Fidel", nor sang the song "Viva Fidel", as he used to do, nor used the alias "Hidell."
And, to your point, as Marina was preparing to give birth: "They had already talked about a name. If it was a boy, he was to be David Lee (no more "Fidel"), and Lee had promised that in the choice of a girl's name he wouldn't interfere.
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I'll vouch that Duran said four photos. Duran also pointed out to Lee there were several places he could get his photo taken. When she was asked if those places where near the Cuban consulate by the HSCA she did not remember that they were near. That comment has been erroneously taken as proof that Duran didn't tell Oswald about having his photos taken.
If I recall, the WC investigators searched/questioned employees at local photo shops near the consulate and all said that they had no memory/record of Oswald having photos taken. I'm going to assume that if he went there to get a visa that he'd realize he would have to bring a photo with him? The man had gotten visas before; he would know the procedure.
It makes no sense to me that an impostor would visit the consulate and embassy and ask for a visa. And also put up a stink - as Oswald did at both locations. If someone wants to suggest that he went to MC AND also someone impersonated him on the phone calls - especially that Monday call - then we might go somewhere with that. But to deny he went there at all is, for me, ignoring a great deal of evidence.
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As happens many times Jerry leaves out a very important piece of information. CE-2788 "Photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald after his return from Russia in late September 1963" Obviously the caption is mistaken in placing Russia instead of Mexico as Oswald was nowhere near Russia in November 1963. This is another example of how a simple mistake can be turned into a sinister attempt at a cover up with a simple act of omission.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
It just says ''after his return from Russia" It does not say ''in 1963''. Again adding things that aren't really there [as happens many times]
It also says "Marina had not previously seen this photograph"...previously? Like when they were together? Why didn't CE-2788 just simply state "One of Oswald's Cuban visa photos" if that is what it was?
Steve M. Galbraith on January 29, 2019, 04:45:23 PM Duran said she asked him for several copies of photos for his application
Actually, I don't see anywhere that she asked him for several copies. She does testify that he brought four pictures. They may still have photo booths around where you inserted coins and it would take and dispense wallet size pictures [usually four] Linking to that HSCA statement some 16 years after the fact [to tell the story straight]-------
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954#relPageId=32&tab=page onward
Continue to believe in this gospel according to Priscilla if you wish [mentioned above]
Don't forget about the part where Oswald [who didn't even speak Spanish] was going to train Cuban militia in combat ::)
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https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
It just says ''after his return from Russia" It does not say ''in 1963''. Again adding things that aren't really there [as happens many times]
It also says "Marina had not previously seen this photograph"...previously? Like when they were together? Why didn't CE-2788 just simply state "One of Oswald's Cuban visa photos" if that is what it was?
Actually, I don't see anywhere that she asked him for several copies. She does testify that he brought four pictures. They may still have photo booths around where you inserted coins and it would take and dispense wallet size pictures [usually four] Linking to that HSCA statement some 16 years after the fact [to tell the story straight]-------
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954#relPageId=32&tab=page onward
Continue to believe in this gospel according to Priscilla if you wish [mentioned above]
Don't forget about the part where Oswald [who didn't even speak Spanish] was going to train Cuban militia in combat ::)
This was 1963. They didn't have photo copier machines. Or copy machines. She had to use carbon copies for the application. One copy - with a photo - would be sent (as it was) to Havana. Another copy would be kept for consulate records. She testified that she made a duplicate copy; it wasn't a carbon copy.
Here is here testimony about the photographs (plural):
CORNWELL - Okay. So your memory is that on the first occasion you also explained to him that he needed photographs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them.
TIRADO - Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has.
CORNWELL - All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did he return with the photographs?
TIRADO - With four photographs.
CORNWELL - Four of them.
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs?
TIRADO - Yes.
This testimony undermines my suggestion that he had photos with him that had been taken earlier. If he was wearing the same clothes then obviously he must have had them taken that day.
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This was 1963. They didn't have photo copier machines. Or copy machines. She had to use carbon copies for the application. One copy - with a photo - would be sent (as it was) to Havana. Another copy would be kept for consulate records.
Here is here testimony about the photographs (plural):
CORNWELL - Okay. So your memory is that on the first occasion you also explained to him that he needed photographs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them.
TIRADO - Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has.
CORNWELL - All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Did he return with the photographs?
TIRADO - With four photographs.
CORNWELL - Four of them.
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs?
TIRADO - Yes.
This was 1963. They didn't have photo copier machines. Or copy machines.
Perhaps you should check..... There most definitely were photocopiers in offices in 1963.......
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This was 1963. They didn't have photo copier machines. Or copy machines.
Perhaps you should check..... There most definitely were photocopiers in offices in 1963.......
Actually ..Walt is correct. Commercial xerographic office photocopying was introduced by Xerox in 1959,[1][2] and it gradually replaced copies made by Verifax, Photostat, carbon paper, mimeograph machines, and other duplicating machines.
[Wiki]
However, This is Mexico [albeit] a Cuban office. There are probably still offices that don't have a copier.
I was glancing through some released files....
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32260796.pdf
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If I recall, the WC investigators searched/questioned employees at local photo shops near the consulate and all said that they had no memory/record of Oswald having photos taken. I'm going to assume that if he went there to get a visa that he'd realize he would have to bring a photo with him? The man had gotten visas before; he would know the procedure.
It makes no sense to me that an impostor would visit the consulate and embassy and ask for a visa. And also put up a stink - as Oswald did at both locations. If someone wants to suggest that he went to MC AND also someone impersonated him on the phone calls - especially that Monday call - then we might go somewhere with that. But to deny he went there at all is, for me, ignoring a great deal of evidence.
I really don't think Oswald thought he would need photos. He went with the proof he felt made him entitled to receive a transit visa immediately. He brought along his old passport that showed he had been to the USSR, his marriage certificate to a Russian woman, clippings of newspaper articles showing his FPCC activities, his FPCC membership and so on. Recall that one of Oswald's traits that he inherited from his mother was that he felt entitled to special treatment. When this didn't work for Oswald Duran told him he needed to fill out a Cuban transit visa and had to obtain a Russian visa before the Cuban transit visa was approved. That's when Oswald went to get his photos taken, went to the Russian embassy, then went back to the Cuban consulate claiming that the Russian embassy had approved his visa. Duran called the Russian embassy and found out that Oswald was lying and then that's when his histrionics began and Azcue had to practically throw Oswald out of the Cuban consulate. In the meantime, Duran felt pity for Oswald and went ahead and not only gave him her name and phone # at the Cuban consulate but also processed the Cuban transit visa.
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This was 1963. They didn't have photo copier machines. Or copy machines.
Perhaps you should check..... There most definitely were photocopiers in offices in 1963.......
You are correct. I was wrong.
But the Cuban consulate office apparently didn't have one since Duran said she made a copy.
CORNWELL - Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who was standing in front of you?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - And what did you do at that time?
TIRADO - I filled out application.
CORNWELL - You personally typed it, and did you type it in duplicate or triplicate or just one copy?
TIRADO - Duplicate.
CORNWELL - And was the second copy a carbon?
TIRADO - Carbon?
CORNWELL - Did you have it twice or did you type one and make two copies?
TIRADO - Only one.
CORNWELL - And made two?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - And what did you do with the photographs?
TIRADO - Stapled them.
CORNWELL - Stapled them?
It appears they didn't even have carbon paper. In any case, again Oswald provided four photos for her to use on the application. She said she stapled a photo to the duplicate copy she made (not a carbon copy).
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I really don't think Oswald thought he would need photos. He went with the proof he felt made him entitled to receive a transit visa immediately. He brought along his old passport that showed he had been to the USSR, his marriage certificate to a Russian woman, clippings of newspaper articles showing his FPCC activities, his FPCC membership and so on. Recall that one of Oswald's traits that he inherited from his mother was that he felt entitled to special treatment. When this didn't work for Oswald Duran told him he needed to fill out a Cuban transit visa and had to obtain a Russian visa before the Cuban transit visa was approved. That's when Oswald went to get his photos taken, went to the Russian embassy, then went back to the Cuban consulate claiming that the Russian embassy had approved his visa. Duran called the Russian embassy and found out that Oswald was lying and then that's when his histrionics began and Azcue had to practically throw Oswald out of the Cuban consulate. In the meantime, Duran felt pity for Oswald and went ahead and not only gave him her name and phone # at the Cuban consulate but also processed the Cuban transit visa.
Probably true. He likely thought that he would show them his pro-revolutionary work and they would just let him in the country.
And, as you pointed out, when they didn't he became extremely agitated. Both the Cuban and Soviet personnel describe him as emotional and hysterical. Would an impostor act this way? Draw attention to himself in this manner? I can't see how he would. Especially if, as is alleged, this actor was sent by the CIA or American intelligence to falsely connect the real Oswald to the Cubans.
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https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
It just says ''after his return from Russia" It does not say ''in 1963''. Again adding things that aren't really there [as happens many times]
It also says "Marina had not previously seen this photograph"...previously? Like when they were together? Why didn't CE-2788 just simply state "One of Oswald's Cuban visa photos" if that is what it was?
Actually, I don't see anywhere that she asked him for several copies. She does testify that he brought four pictures. They may still have photo booths around where you inserted coins and it would take and dispense wallet size pictures [usually four] Linking to that HSCA statement some 16 years after the fact [to tell the story straight]-------
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954#relPageId=32&tab=page onward
Continue to believe in this gospel according to Priscilla if you wish [mentioned above]
Don't forget about the part where Oswald [who didn't even speak Spanish] was going to train Cuban militia in combat ::)
You're a liar, Jerry. Read what it says below Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXVI.
www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/ (http://www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/) William Morgan went AWOL (not a washout as stated in article) from the U.S. Army to join the fight in the mountains of the Escambray in the late 50's and was a role model for the future (he hoped) Cuban revolutionary, LHO.
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You're a liar, Jerry. Read what it says below Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXVI.
www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/ (http://www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/) William Morgan went AWOL (not a washout as stated in article) from the U.S. Army to join the fight in the mountains of the Escambray in the late 50's and was a role model for the future (he hoped) Cuban revolutionary, LHO.
www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/ (http://www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/)
Morgan was a US agent.... In the late 1950's Batista had lost favor with the US government and the mob. The mob wanted Batista gone, and consequently men like Richard Nixon, Robert Maheu, Howard Hughes, Santo Trafficant, Carlos Marcello, HL Hunt, began backing Fidel Castro by supplying him with arms, ammunition, and MERCENARIES like William Morgan , Frank Fiorini, and others..... Since "Tricky Dick" Nixon was deeply involved with the mob, and was the VP he was in position to influence the US government, and the pentagon. Consequently the US Marine Corps was being groomed and honed mentally to believe that Batista, and Cuba would be their next battleground. When Batista realized that he was a marked man, he fled from Cuba and allowed Castro to seize control of the Island...The Mob thought that they could control Castro, but they grossly underestimated Castro's popularity and power.....
In 1957 / 58 many young Marines like Lee Oswald were gung ho to fight in Cuba and mercenaries like William Morgan and Frank Fiorini, (aka Frank Sturgis) were being paid with mob dollars. When Castro refused to allow Cuba to be further degraded by mob corruption and started closing their illicit enterprises, They took action and marked him to be hit. Castro saw Morgan as a major problem and had him executed.....
Lee Oswald and many other young Marines had been indoctrinated ....He became obsessed with Cuba and the toppling of Fidel Castro....
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You're a liar, Jerry.
Oscar don't you think you are getting a bit overly agitated there? I mean liar really? I just transcribed what it said on that page.... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
Now if my eyes are out of whack that would be another thing. Let us allow other viewers decide OK?
---A brief add..Someone can be wrong or in error..mistaken perhaps but ..liar is quite a charge-take it easy.
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Probably true. He likely thought that he would show them his pro-revolutionary work and they would just let him in the country.
And when they didn't he became extremely agitated. Both the Cuban and Soviet personnel describe him as emotional and hysterical.
I do wonder if Oswald confessed or hinted to the Cubans that he was capable of violent acts like trying to shoot Walker as a means to enhance his commie credentials as a true believer. If the CIA had recorded something along those lines or any threat Oswald made to commit such an act in the future, it would be plausible that both the Cubans and CIA would have cause to cover it up after the JFK assassination. From the Cuban perspective, they might feel like Oswald had been sent to them to link them to the assassination as a pretext for war. So they had every incentive not to reveal any such threats he made in their presence. The CIA would be in CYA mode not wanting to acknowledge that they had information confirming that Oswald might have been dangerous but not acting upon it. I don't think there is any real possibility that Oswald specifically threatened JFK at that time since Oswald would have had no way to know that he would have any opportunity to assassinate him. He might very well have hinted about the Walker attempt and/or vowed to commit similar unspecified violent acts to prove his worthiness to the cause. That's why I think that Oswald's Mexico City visit is probably the last situation from which there is any significant information to be learned in this case.
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If Oswald was indeed the applicant in question...Why couldn't the Cuban council in Mexico City identify him?
No one has even tried to answer that one.
Mr. CORNWELL. Do those pictures of that individual appear to you to be the same individual who visited the consulate in Mexico City on the occasions you have previously described to us?
Senor AZCUE. Truly, this photograph is one that I saw for the first time when the honorable U.S. committee members came to Cuba in April of this year, and I was surprised that I believe that it was not the same person. Fifteen years had gone by so it is very difficult for me to be in a position to guarantee it in a categorical form. But my belief is that this gentleman was not, is not, the person or the individual who went to the consulate.
Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.
Mr. CORNWELL. What color hair did the individual have to the best of your memory who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. He was blond, dark blond.
TESTIMONY OF SENOR EUSEBIO AZCUE LOPEZ, FORMER CUBAN CONSUL IN MEXICO CITY ------------------------------ http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaascu.htm
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You might find this interesting:
A debate between Mark Lane and David Atlee Philips (CIA) ...
Oswald and Mexico City--- approx: 18:30-
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If Oswald was indeed the applicant in question...Why couldn't the Cuban council in Mexico City identify him?
No one has even tried to answer that one. TESTIMONY OF SENOR EUSEBIO AZCUE LOPEZ, FORMER CUBAN CONSUL IN MEXICO CITY ------------------------------ http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaascu.htm
Why do experts say eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable? For example, I suggest reading up on the research by Elizabeth Loftus.
I thought the one thing, probably the only thing, both sides - lone assassin believers and conspiracy advocates - agreed upon is that eyewitness accounts cannot be relied upon. There has to be corroborating evidence.
In this matter, there is: other accounts, physical evidence, photos, handwriting/signature, visa applications, circumstantial. We need to consider the totality of evidence and not simply one piece.
So you dismiss all of this other evidence because Azcue said the man he saw didn't appear to be Oswald?
In any case, I'll answer it: Azcue was wrong. Note that he also said in his testimony that the man in the visa photos was NOT the same man he saw and that the dress of the man in the photos was not the same. He testified that the man he saw was wearing a suit. Duran said, of course, that the man she met was the same man in the photos and that he was dressed the same. And she has corroborating evidence: the photo and his signature, among other things. Again, I think his memory failed him.
Now, your turn: How do you explain the other eyewitness accounts, the photos, the signatures, the application and the circumstantial evidence that indicates he went there?
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You might find this interesting:
A debate between Mark Lane and David Atlee Philips (CIA) ...
Oswald and Mexico City--- approx: 18:30-
Mr Kelly, I'm hearing impaired and find it hard to understand what's being said on the tape.... Could you please transcribe the pertinent portion of the tape?
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Why do experts say eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable? Now, your turn: How do you explain the other eyewitness accounts, the photos, the signatures, the application and the circumstantial evidence that indicates he went there?
I have asked before...What makes someone an 'expert'? Also it just seems to me that the authorities accept eyewitness testimony when it supports their cause...but reject accounts that don't. Why follow that trend?
I have searched for other solid ID reports. Nothing has been linked that seems really convincing. We keep going back to the 'application'. Which application? Passport?
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/04/Pict_statesecret_ch3_passport.png)
Here is the WC link [full page] again to the Oswald passport application
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_781.pdf
And recall I wrote earlier.... Why did Lee's [passport] application misspell his mother's name...his aunts name...[even his own] wife's name..& misstate his height but, manage to spell photographer correctly when Lee consistently misspelled that word?
When you smell fish...something is fishy.
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Oscar don't you think you are getting a bit overly agitated there? I mean liar really? I just transcribed what it said on that page.... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=213&tab=page
Now if my eyes are out of whack that would be another thing. Let us allow other viewers decide OK?
---A brief add..Someone can be wrong or in error..mistaken perhaps but ..liar is quite a charge-take it easy.
No, Jerry. I'm just stating a simple fact. I gave you an opportunity to reconsider what you had posted about the Oswald photo and this is how you responded; Again adding things that aren't really there [as happens many times] Where you probably originally got the photo was from the WR, page 396 but when I showed you where the exhibit gives the complete description you gave that flippant remark. You were in error the first time but the second was a deliberate attempt at misleading the reader. And even now, the third time, you still refuse to acknowledge that I was not adding anything that isn't there by asking for support from fellow CTers, the only ones that you can count on to bail you out.
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I have asked before...What makes someone an 'expert'? Also it just seems to me that the authorities accept eyewitness testimony when it supports their cause...but reject accounts that don't. Why follow that trend?
I have searched for other solid ID reports. Nothing has been linked that seems really convincing. We keep going back to the 'application'. Which application? Passport?
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/04/Pict_statesecret_ch3_passport.png)
Here is the WC link [full page] again to the Oswald passport application
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_781.pdf
And recall I wrote earlier.... When you smell fish...something is fishy.
but, manage to spell photographer correctly when Lee consistently misspelled that word?
This is interesting....I never realized that Lee had trouble spelling "photographer".... But whoever said that it is spelled correctly on the application should take a closer look.... It looks to me like it is spelled Phtograhber .....and the loop on the letter "h" has a bar across the top which makes no sense....
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I have asked before...What makes someone an 'expert'? Also it just seems to me that the authorities accept eyewitness testimony when it supports their cause...but reject accounts that don't. Why follow that trend?
I have searched for other solid ID reports. Nothing has been linked that seems really convincing. We keep going back to the 'application'. Which application? Passport?
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/04/Pict_statesecret_ch3_passport.png)
Here is the WC link [full page] again to the Oswald passport application
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_781.pdf
And recall I wrote earlier.... When you smell fish...something is fishy.
Well, if you want to reject the peer-reviewed research of people then I guess we can't go anywhere on the expert question. Experts can be wrong of course; but one has to show where and how.
In any case, do you think eyewitness accounts are always reliable? Here we have a specific case where they can be wrong: two witnesses - Duran and Mirabal - say the man was Oswald and another witness - Azcue - saying it wasn't.
Obviously, someone is wrong here. So we consider other evidence that can corroborate what the parties say.
Re the application: I'm not sure what others are talking about but I am referring to the transit visa applications he signed. With the photos. That Duran said she typed for him. And had him sign.
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www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/ (http://www.executedtoday.com/2010/03/11/1961-william-morgan-cuba-americano/)
Morgan was a US agent.... In the late 1950's Batista had lost favor with the US government and the mob. The mob wanted Batista gone, and consequently men like Richard Nixon, Robert Maheu, Howard Hughes, Santo Trafficant, Carlos Marcello, HL Hunt, began backing Fidel Castro by supplying him with arms, ammunition, and MERCENARIES like William Morgan , Frank Fiorini, and others..... Since "Tricky Dick" Nixon was deeply involved with the mob, and was the VP he was in position to influence the US government, and the pentagon. Consequently the US Marine Corps was being groomed and honed mentally to believe that Batista, and Cuba would be their next battleground. When Batista realized that he was a marked man, he fled from Cuba and allowed Castro to seize control of the Island...The Mob thought that they could control Castro, but they grossly underestimated Castro's popularity and power.....
In 1957 / 58 many young Marines like Lee Oswald were gung ho to fight in Cuba and mercenaries like William Morgan and Frank Fiorini, (aka Frank Sturgis) were being paid with mob dollars. When Castro refused to allow Cuba to be further degraded by mob corruption and started closing their illicit enterprises, They took action and marked him to be hit. Castro saw Morgan as a major problem and had him executed.....
Lee Oswald and many other young Marines had been indoctrinated ....He became obsessed with Cuba and the toppling of Fidel Castro....
Where the heck did you get that screwy story from! The Mob loved Batista. William Morgan was not connected to any of these guys and it's only alleged that Morgan was a US agent. Those who do the alleging get their info from Castro sympathizers. Castro had Morgan executed because Morgan became disenchanted with the direction that Castro was taking the Cuban Revolution by putting real commies like Raul as head of the Cuban Armed Forces and uber commie Che Guevara as head of the central bank or treasury. Morgan was very popular in Cuba and Castro used the excuse that Morgan was an American agent to put him in front of the firing squad. Castro did this to those of whom he felt were a threat to his popularity, like Camilo Cienfuegos and, eventually, that scumbag Che Guevara. It's highly likely that Gen. Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez charges of drug smuggling were trumped up, and he was sent to the firing squad because Ochoa had become too popular to Castro's liking. And you say that Lee Oswald was obsessed with toppling Castro. What a crock of ****!!!!
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Well, if you want to reject the peer-reviewed research of people then I guess we can't go anywhere on the expert question. Experts can be wrong of course; but one has to show where and how.
In any case, do you think eyewitness accounts are always reliable? Here we have a specific case where they can be wrong: two witnesses - Duran and Mirabal - say the man was Oswald and another witness - Azcue - saying it wasn't.
Obviously, someone is wrong here. So we consider other evidence that can corroborate what the parties say.
Re the application: I'm not sure what others are talking about but I am referring to the transit visa applications he signed. With the photos. That Duran said she typed for him. And had him sign.
Gee, a guy who was probably dyslexic and a notorious bad speller all of a sudden has his passport application under scrutiny because of misspellings. Only in kookville does that make an ounce of sense. Jerry was floating the idea that Oswald's application was funny because it was issued in 24 hours and because it had the initials NO to the right of his name. When it was pointed out that the 24 or so other applicants in that telex were also granted passports in 24 hours and it was shown that the initials NO next to Oswald's name just happened to be a coincidence based on a careful study of many other telex from NO and NY he only has this little nugget of the misspelled words to throw at the wall hoping it will, at least temporarily, cause a minor brown stain.
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Where the heck did you get that screwy story from! The Mob loved Batista. William Morgan was not connected to any of these guys and it's only alleged that Morgan was a US agent. Those who do the alleging get their info from Castro sympathizers. Castro had Morgan executed because Morgan became disenchanted with the direction that Castro was taking the Cuban Revolution by putting real commies like Raul as head of the Cuban Armed Forces and uber commie Che Guevara as head of the central bank or treasury. Morgan was very popular in Cuba and Castro used the excuse that Morgan was an American agent to put him in front of the firing squad. Castro did this to those of whom he felt were a threat to his popularity, like Camilo Cienfuegos and, eventually, that scumbag Che Guevara. It's highly likely that Gen. Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez charges of drug smuggling were trumped up, and he was sent to the firing squad because Ochoa had become too popular to Castro's liking. And you say that Lee Oswald was obsessed with toppling Castro. What a crock of ****!!!!
The Mob loved Batista.
No all the Gangsters, loved batista, and some American politicians (Nixon) didn't love Batista either.... They wanted a bigger slice of the Cuban pie, and Batista was in the way. They thought that the brash young Castro would be easy to manipulate so they backed Castro, and supplied him with money and guns and ammo. Batista saw the "handwriting on the wall" and grabbed suitcases full of cash and boogied....
But Nixon and company miscalculated....Fidel Castro had been raised a catholic and he hated watching the mob turn Cuba into an immoral, crime ridden, stinking cesspool, where a small child could be bought for a couple of dollars and used in perverted sick sex acts. Castro wanted to improve the living standard in Cuba and If Nixon had been smart he would have been at the New York airport to greet Castro when Castro came to The US.....
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Gee, a guy who was probably dyslexic
When it was pointed out that the 24 or so other applicants in that telex were also granted passports in 24 hours and it was shown that the initials NO next to Oswald's name just happened to be a coincidence
He was not dyslexic. Do you believe that someone who wrote sloppy misspelled English ...was dyslexic even-- could write in Russian like this....
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walkernote1.jpg)
Take a good look at that penmanship. No sloppyness, markovers, or scratchouts, at all!
That is page one of the heralded "Walker note" that Lee allegedly wrote Marina before allegedly vanishing to pop a cap into a general [for no reason at all] Did Oswald write it? If so--he appeared quite accomplished. If he didn't---- it appears quite fishy.
I cannot disprove the passport testimony. The "NO" coincidence etc. I just have my doubts.....Cheers
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He was not dyslexic. Do you believe that someone who wrote sloppy misspelled English ...was dyslexic even-- could write in Russian like this....
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walkernote1.jpg)
Take a good look at that penmanship. No sloppyness, markovers, or scratchouts, at all!
That is page one of the heralded "Walker note" that Lee allegedly wrote Marina before allegedly vanishing to pop a cap into a general [for no reason at all] Did Oswald write it? If so--he appeared quite accomplished. If he didn't---- it appears quite fishy.
I cannot disprove the passport testimony. The "NO" coincidence etc. I just have my doubts.....Cheers
That is page one of the heralded "Walker note" that Lee allegedly wrote Marina
Page one? I thought there was only one page.... Who can read this and translate it? I'd like to know what is written.
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That is page one of the heralded "Walker note" that Lee allegedly wrote Marina
Page one? I thought there was only one page.... Who can read this and translate it? I'd like to know what is written.
There is a translation of two pages of instructions to Marina. It should be in a more separate/related topic.
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There is a translation of two pages of instructions to Marina. It should be in a more separate/related topic.
Reply 429 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1189.msg43417.html#new
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Walt,
Mark Lane is talking and saying that the CIA told the Warren Commission that Oswald did go to
Mexico city where he met with a Russian (head of assasinations area of the KGB) and then a month later
Oswald shoots JFK.
Philips does not address the comment but apparently maintained that Oswald did go there.
Mark Lane, at that time, says there is no evidence whatsoever that Osawald was in Mexico.
The inference is of course, that the CIA made this up to 'terrorize' the commission into
avoiding conspiracy related considerations.
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Walt,
Mark Lane is talking and saying that the CIA told the Warren Commission that Oswald did go to
Mexico city where he met with a Russian (head of assasinations area of the KGB) and then a month later
Oswald shoots JFK.
Philips does not address the comment but apparently maintained that Oswald did go there.
Mark Lane, at that time, says there is no evidence whatsoever that Osawald was in Mexico.
The inference is of course, that the CIA made this up to 'terrorize' the commission into
avoiding conspiracy related considerations.
Thank you, Liam..... For years I ignored the Mexico City aspect.... Because it was obvious to me that there was a bunch of CYA between several US intel organizations. Apparently they all knew that a man who identified himself as Lee Harvey Oswald had shouted at ambassador Azcue that someone should shoot JFK.
Since they KNEW that the man had made the threat they should have taken action to put him in prison, or a mental hospital,....or a unmarked grave.
When the stuff hit the fan when JFK was murdered they were caught with there knickers around their ankles..... and were grasping at straws, so they invented the idea that the voice on the tape did not match the voice of Lee Oswald.... But then they realized that they were revealing the fact that they had bugs planted at the Cuban embassy so the switched the story and claimed they had overheard a telephone conversation and had recorded that call.... Lies...on top of lies
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Why would Oswald have called the Soviet Embassy and want to try and even pretend to speak in Spanish to them?
Then... at a later time claims to speak Russian but it is reported that he is speaking "terrible-hardly recognizable Russian"?
Was this really Lee Oswald?
Previously classified Top Secret by the CIA.....7 short pages-----
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32107690.pdf
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Why would Oswald have called the Soviet Embassy and want to try and even pretend to speak in Spanish to them?
Then... at a later time claims to speak Russian but it is reported that he is speaking "terrible-hardly recognizable Russian"?
Was this really Lee Oswald?
Previously classified Top Secret by the CIA.....7 short pages-----
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32107690.pdf
Dear Jerry,
In my opinion, those two Spanish-speaking calls to the Soviet consulate shortly after 10 am on Friday, September 27 weren't made by Oswald, but either by someone totally unrelated to the assassination, or ... gasp ... by Spanish-fluent (he'd interpreted for Khrushchev and Castro a few months earlier in Moscow) "short, blond, skinny, blue-eyed, 35 year- old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced" KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
PS He's a good candidate for the other calls, too, speaking in them naturally bad English and overly bad Russian.
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A man named Angel Ronaldo Luis Salazar was interrogated at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City the year before by Ramiro Jesus Abreu Quintana, ?an identified Cuban intelligence officer,? about Kennedy?s assassination. During the interrogation, Salazar claimed he remarked that Oswald must have been a good shot. According to him, Abreu replied ?Oh, he was quite good?.I knew him.?
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32165833.pdf
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He was not dyslexic. Do you believe that someone who wrote sloppy misspelled English ...was dyslexic even-- could write in Russian like this....
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walkernote1.jpg)
Take a good look at that penmanship. No sloppyness, markovers, or scratchouts, at all!
That is page one of the heralded "Walker note" that Lee allegedly wrote Marina before allegedly vanishing to pop a cap into a general [for no reason at all] Did Oswald write it? If so--he appeared quite accomplished. If he didn't---- it appears quite fishy.
I cannot disprove the passport testimony. The "NO" coincidence etc. I just have my doubts.....Cheers
So Jerry knows Russian. It must be bad Russian. Here's from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=425&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=425&tab=page)
"The note was constructed in very bad Russian and many words were misspelled which were hard to understand."
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So Jerry knows Russian. It must be bad Russian. Here's from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=425&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=425&tab=page)
"The note was constructed in very bad Russian and many words were misspelled which were hard to understand."
I know that. I know some Russian. My Russian is terrible. It is very difficult to learn. My wife is Russian. How much Russian does Oscar know?
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I know that. I know some Russian. My Russian is terrible. It is very difficult to learn. My wife is Russian. How much Russian does Oscar know?
My wife is Russian too.... When there's something on sale that she thinks is a bargain....
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Why should we trust KGB officers and Mexican and Cuban pro-Castro bureaucrats when they say they met with ("a highly unstable") Oswald in Mexico City in late September, 1963?
Regarding the former, why should we trust Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, and, yep, that short, blond, blue-eyed, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache," KGB Col. Nikolai Leonov who claimed in 1992 to have met one-on-one with Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, 1963(!), and very well could have been the person who provided Sylvia Duran with a taken-in-Minsk "passport-sized" photo of Oswald to be stapled to his Cuban Visa Application, and also could have been the (naturally?) bad English-speaking and (over-the-top?) bad Russian-speaking person who impersonated Oswald over the phone down there?
"Because when they revealed this stuff, the Cold War was over, Tommy!"
Hint: Not as far as the Ruskies were concerned, Bucko.
"But, but, but Mudd Wrassler Tommy, what evidence do you have?"
"And, and, and ... why would those nice Russians or that nice Fidel Castro want to kill JFK, anyway?"
LOL
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
Bumping this thread from "the get-go".
Will doubters find the gonads to continue our little "debates"?
I rather doubt it.
LOL
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No WC supporter has ever cited one piece of evidence that shows for sure that LHO went th Mexico City.
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Post #15---
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg41656.html#msg41656
Here (below) is the draft copy of the letter that Oswald sent the Soviet Embassy in Washington where he discusses going to Mexico City and visiting the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy. The handwriting was identified as belonging to Oswald.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/23kuqlf.jpg)
Reply #25
Russian speaking Oswald [who lived and worked in the USSR] sent a letter in English to the Soviet Embassy?
No one even tried to respond to that one. Both Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine testified that they saw him type the letter.
Isn't it odd with all these Russian speakers at the Paine house that there was no Cyrillic typewriter?
Strange how all this "evidence" was so conveniently left behind so it could be found by the police/FBI. Was this all filed away along with the "Walker-If something happens to me" letter? People who were on a bus going to MC said they saw and talked to Oswald. People at the hotel - a cleaning lady and waiter - said they saw him. Cubans at the consulate - Duran and Mirabal - say it was Oswald. The Soviet officials - KGB agents - say the man was Oswald and that the man in the photos did NOT identify himself as Oswald. There's a visa issued to Oswald from the Mexican consulate in New Orleans with his handwriting/signature on it. On and on and on it goes.
Actually, on and on these statements were either discredited or remain dubious. How could Oswald [who scraped together a total of $33 as his last know action in New Orleans] manage to travel all the way to Mexico City and then ostensibly back to Dallas on $33 [even back then]?
Oh he hitch-hiked back from the border? No one ever came forward saying that they had picked him up. You might think they would recognize that face. Based on another thread.. Antonio Veciana stated that Oswald was actually in Dallas [apparently under cover] at the time he was supposedly in Mexico. Link-- http://harveyandlee.net/Patsy/Veciana/Veciana.html
Why would he lie? Why would Silvia Odio lie?
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Any idea as to why triple-agents Aleksey Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora") and Mexico City Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975, top-secret Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately (e.g., John Newman's revised Oswald and the CIA) Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file seven weeks before the assassination?
Maybe the paychecks were better in the West?
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Any idea as to why triple-agents Aleksey Kulak (Hoover's "Fedora") and Mexico City Soviet Embassy security guard Ivan Obyedkov (misspelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's June 19, 1975, top-secret Church Committee testimony) planted a Kremlin-protecting and ultimately (e.g., John Newman's revised Oswald and the CIA) Angleton-damaging "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file seven weeks before the assassination?
Maybe the paychecks were better in the West?
Dear Matt,
You either don't have a clue, or you're on the wrong thread.
Question: Do you believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
That's what the KGB (today's FSB and SVR) would have you believe ...
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
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Dear Matt,
You either don't have a clue, or you're on the wrong thread.
Question: Do you believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
That's what the KGB (today's FSB and SVR) would have you believe ...
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
That is called the logical fallacy of begging the question
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Question: Do you believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
That's what the KGB (today's FSB and SVR) would have you believe ...
That is called the logical fallacy of begging the question
Just don't care to say, huh?
-- MWT ;)
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I try not to violate the rules of logic for the whim of another. All I did was offer an answer for your question and for that I need to answer the biggest questions of all. Laughable
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Dear Matt, You either don't have a clue, or you're on the wrong thread.
You seem to be on the wrong thread...and it's your thread. There is a "Did the CIA kill Kennedy?" thread elsewhere.
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You seem to be on the wrong thread...and it's your thread. There is a "Did the CIA kill Kennedy?" thread elsewhere.
Dear Jerry,
You really think so?
-- MWT ;)
PS If you don't understand, just think of it as a bump.
In the night.
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PS If you don't understand, just think of it as a bump....
OK
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There does not seem to be any proof that LHO was in Mexico City and there are no pictures of him in Mexico City . J. Edgar Hoover told LBJ there was a problem as far as placing LHO in Mexico City !
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There does not seem to be any proof that LHO was in Mexico City and there are no pictures of him in Mexico City . J. Edgar Hoover told LBJ there was a problem as far as placing LHO in Mexico City !
Exactly.
And those who read Passport to Assassination should bear in mind that Nechiporenko, Yatskov and Kostikov were all officers of the always-prevericating, always-dissemblling KGB.
-- MWT ;)
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There does not seem to be any proof that LHO was in Mexico City
Who signed the hotel reg?
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Who signed the hotel reg?
Read this... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/mexico-city-part-1
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11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case -
this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they
have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment
of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We
had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.
J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints
... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago
on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the
President of the United States.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and
the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond
to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the
Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in
Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI.
Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation.
No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case,
as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the...
Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but
the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
-----------
11/29/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: That there is no connection between he and Ruby that you can detect now. And whether he was connected with the
Cuban operation with money, you're trying to...
J. Edgar Hoover: That's what we're trying to nail down now, because he was strongly pro-Castro, he was strongly anti-American, and
he had been in correspondence, which we have, with the Soviet embassy here in Washington and with the American Civil Liberties Union
and with this Committee for Fair Play to Cuba... None of those letters, however, dealt with any indication of violence or contemplated
assassination. They were dealing with the matter of a visa for his wife to go back to Russia. Now there is one angle to this thing that
I'm hopeful to get some word on today This woman, his wife, had been very hostile. She would not cooperate, speaks... Russian only. She
did say to us yesterday down there that if we could give her assurance that she would be allowed to remain in this country, she might
cooperate. I told our agents down there to give her that assurance... and I sent a Russian-speaking agent into Dallas last night to
interview her.... Whether she knows anything or talks anything, I, of course, don't know and won't know till -
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Read this... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/mexico-city-part-1
Yes familiar with it and that theory. The HSCA exhausted this.
It's Oswalds signature, it's Oswalds writing.
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Who signed the hotel reg?
I'm convinced that Lee Oswald did go to Mexico City .... He thought that he was working for the FBI and was attempting to obtain a visa to Cuba, where he could spy on activities in Cuba. In reality he was being set up as the scapegoat for the budding assassination plot. Naturally, Hoover would cover up the fact that Lee had gone to MC. You may recall that in the very early stages of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, FBI agent Hosty tried to get Lee to admit that he had been to Mexico City and had he said that someone should have shot JFK for interfering with Castro. ( Lee knew that he'd made that crazy statement in a desperate attempt to obtain a visa from the Cuban embassy, and now JFK had been shot) The primary concern of FBI agent Hosty during the first few minutes of the initial interrogation was his attempt to get Lee to admit being in Mexico City.
When Hoover learned that Hosty had brought up Mexico City during the first interrogation he was furious and ordered Shanklin to yank Hosty from the interrogation...
Hoover knew that in proving that Lee had made the threat on JFK's life he would be be revealing that the FBI had a bug planted at the Cuban Embassy....And Lee might reveal that he had been sent to Mexico City on orders from Hoover ...Who Lee thought he was working for in an honest and patriotic attempt to infiltrate Cuba.
Hoover was desperate.... He needed Lee Oswald snuffed ASAP!.....
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11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case -
this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they
have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment
of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We
had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.
J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on
the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have
what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints
... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago
on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the
President of the United States.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and
the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond
to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the
Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in
Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI.
Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation.
No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case,
as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the...
Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but
the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
-----------
11/29/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: That there is no connection between he and Ruby that you can detect now. And whether he was connected with the
Cuban operation with money, you're trying to...
J. Edgar Hoover: That's what we're trying to nail down now, because he was strongly pro-Castro, he was strongly anti-American, and
he had been in correspondence, which we have, with the Soviet embassy here in Washington and with the American Civil Liberties Union
and with this Committee for Fair Play to Cuba... None of those letters, however, dealt with any indication of violence or contemplated
assassination. They were dealing with the matter of a visa for his wife to go back to Russia. Now there is one angle to this thing that
I'm hopeful to get some word on today This woman, his wife, had been very hostile. She would not cooperate, speaks... Russian only. She
did say to us yesterday down there that if we could give her assurance that she would be allowed to remain in this country, she might
cooperate. I told our agents down there to give her that assurance... and I sent a Russian-speaking agent into Dallas last night to
interview her.... Whether she knows anything or talks anything, I, of course, don't know and won't know till -
JE Hoover...The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong. The case,
as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction...
JE Hoover...There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification.
This statement by Hoover "We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification." contradicts those who believe the fragments could be traced to the TSBD carcano.....
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Yes familiar with it and that theory. The HSCA exhausted this.
It's Oswalds signature, it's Oswalds writing.
HSCA may have exhausted everything but did not explain much of anything. Like how Oswald was in Tennessee and Louisiana at the same time.
(http://knoxblogs.com/atomiccity/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/11/Visitor-register-i.jpg)
That is Oswald's signature too. How did it get there?
http://knoxblogs.com/atomiccity/2013/11/22/lee-harvey-oswald-oak-ridge/
I'm no forger but if someone will write their name and send it to me ...in time I think I could copy it.
Know who has access to the best forgers in the country? The Bureau of Prisons/FBI/CIA ;)
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WCR testimony:
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August.
HSCA testimony: Mr. McDONALD - When did you first learn of his planned trip to Mexico City? When did you first know about that?
Mrs. PORTER - Shortly before I left for Dallas with Ruth Paine
Mr. McDONALD - How did you learn of this?
Mrs. PORTER - He told me about his plans to go to Mexico City and to visit the Cuban Embassy over there.
Mr. RANKIN When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.
And she would say anything she could in order to get out of there and go home :-\
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WCR testimony:
HSCA testimony: And she would say anything she could in order to get out of there and go home :-\
Marina was telling the truth....She knew that Lee was going to Mexico City in an attempt to get to Cuba...
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Marina was telling the truth....
I couldn't disagree any more---Marina lied constantly. She was obviously compelled to. She was not a USA citizen so nobody cared. They probably even threatened to take her kids away. Marina testified about this supposed trip to Mexico--- "But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it."
Who can believe this absurdity!?
Lee was going to Mexico City in an attempt to get to Cuba.
He could have gone to Cuba through Miami a lot easier...1091 miles from New Orleans-Miami-Havana instead of 2451 miles New Orleans-Mexico City-Havana. Then, no one has ever demonstrated where he had any money [of his own] to go anywhere. Was he to grow wings and fly to Cuba?
I know people think that he needed a visa. You didn't need a stinking visa. Smugglers ran boats to and from Miami all the time..probably still do.
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I'm convinced that Lee Oswald did go to Mexico City .... He thought that he was working for the FBI and was attempting to obtain a visa to Cuba, where he could spy on activities in Cuba. In reality he was being set up as the scapegoat for the budding assassination plot. Naturally, Hoover would cover up the fact that Lee had gone to MC. You may recall that in the very early stages of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, FBI agent Hosty tried to get Lee to admit that he had been to Mexico City and had he said that someone should have shot JFK for interfering with Castro. ( Lee knew that he'd made that crazy statement in a desperate attempt to obtain a visa from the Cuban embassy, and now JFK had been shot) The primary concern of FBI agent Hosty during the first few minutes of the initial interrogation was his attempt to get Lee to admit being in Mexico City.
When Hoover learned that Hosty had brought up Mexico City during the first interrogation he was furious and ordered Shanklin to yank Hosty from the interrogation...
Hoover knew that in proving that Lee had made the threat on JFK's life he would be be revealing that the FBI had a bug planted at the Cuban Embassy....And Lee might reveal that he had been sent to Mexico City on orders from Hoover ...Who Lee thought he was working for in an honest and patriotic attempt to infiltrate Cuba.
Hoover was desperate.... He needed Lee Oswald snuffed ASAP!.....
Yes Hosty bungled the interrogation just as Fritz was calming Oswald down. We may have got some answers but Oswald blew up when he finally met Hosty.
I don't believe Hoover was involved at all (sadly).
I do think Lee wanted to go to Cuba, but to join Castro. I believe Oswald was delusional - eg wanting to hijack a plane with pregnant Marina and fly to Cuba.
HSCA may have exhausted everything but did not explain much of anything. Like how Oswald was in Tennessee and Louisiana at the same time.
Well they proved Oswald was in Mexico!
He wasn't in Tennessee and Louisiana at the same time. The museum visit and the speech (actually in Alabama not Louisiana) were on different days.
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Yes Hosty bungled the interrogation just as Fritz was calming Oswald down. We may have got some answers but Oswald blew up when he finally met Hosty.
I don't believe Hoover was involved at all (sadly).
I do think Lee wanted to go to Cuba, but to join Castro. I believe Oswald was delusional - eg wanting to hijack a plane with pregnant Marina and fly to Cuba.
Well they proved Oswald was in Mexico!
He wasn't in Tennessee and Louisiana at the same time. The museum visit and the speech (actually in Alabama not Louisiana) were on different days.
I do think Lee wanted to go to Cuba, but to join Castro.
"To join Castro" Ted, we'l just have to disagree on this point ..... I believe Lee wanted to appear as a Castro supporter so that he would be accepted in Cuba.
In reality he was working for the US government, just as he had done when he "defected" to Russia in 1959.
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I do think Lee wanted to go to Cuba, but to join Castro.
"To join Castro" Ted, we'l just have to disagree on this point ..... I believe Lee wanted to appear as a Castro supporter so that he would be accepted in Cuba.
In reality he was working for the US government, just as he had done when he "defected" to Russia in 1959.
This is possible, although I don't believe it despite it being what I originally believed/assumed.
Couple of points on that.
Would the CIA send a 19 year old with a bad attitude and a history of erratic behaviour to Russia as a spy? Aside from that, is it not far to obvious? CIA/KGB plant spies stay dormant for years and years, sometimes decades. Surely sending an American ex Marine is just too obvious a move? Same reason I don't think Oswald was "turned" in Russia to work for the KGB and sent back to America.
His ease to get back is an odd one though I don't deny that.
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He wasn't in Tennessee and Louisiana at the same time. The museum visit and the speech (actually in Alabama not Louisiana) were on different days.
OK the next day. Did Oswald book tickets on a jet airlines? From the official timeline...July 27, 1963: LHO speaks to the Jesuit group for 30 minutes on the subject of "Contemporary Russia and the Practice of Communism".
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
OK that was in Mobile. The timeline mentions nothing about Oak Ridge. There was no mention anywhere about that. Even Richard Smith thought it might be all a big hoax and we rarely agree.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg42014.html#msg42014
Oswald had been fired from the coffee company the week before and then goes gallivanting around the country....How?
His ease to get back is an odd one though I don't deny that.
Yes sir... odd that charges for filing a false hardship discharge request was never brought up.
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His ease to get back is an odd one though I don't deny that.
Not really Ted, a bit of a myth this one. Oswald was free to return to the US anytime he wanted, he'd never officially renounced his US citizenship. The only hold up was waiting for the US embassy to issue a new passport. As Oswald was still a full US citizen the US was legally obliged to issue one just as they were legally obliged to give Oswald a repatriation loan, they had no choice, the US couldn't refuse even if they wanted to. As a USSR citizen Marina was more of a problem, the USSR made her wait almost a year for the necessary documents but this was really just out of spite, the fact was that the USSR wanted rid of the "pesky American" and were glad to see the back of him.
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This is possible, although I don't believe it despite it being what I originally believed/assumed.
Couple of points on that.
Would the CIA send a 19 year old with a bad attitude and a history of erratic behaviour to Russia as a spy? Aside from that, is it not far to obvious? CIA/KGB plant spies stay dormant for years and years, sometimes decades. Surely sending an American ex Marine is just too obvious a move? Same reason I don't think Oswald was "turned" in Russia to work for the KGB and sent back to America.
His ease to get back is an odd one though I don't deny that.
A couple of points in rebuttal and then I believe I'll take a hiatus ( Because I believe trying to advance peoples knowledge about the coup d e'tat is hopeless)
Would the CIA (The US Government) send a 19 year old with a bad attitude and a history of erratic behaviour to Russia as a spy?
The very fact that you don't believe it.... is a very strong argument that the Russians also would not believe that a kid like Lee Oswald could be a agent.
As a trained spy???.... No probably not.....But as a decoy and a distraction for Russian intel ...yes definitely. Lee had no major mission or agenda when he was sent to Russia... I suspect that his mission was connected to FG Powers U-2 overflight and he needed to be in position prior to the U-2 flight.
BTW... If Lee Oswald truly had been a problem for the Marines they would have discharged him during basic training, but the testing reveal that they had a highly intelligent recruit who had aspirations of becoming a spy like Herb Philbrick. They recognized that they could groom him and use him, and that's exactly what they did. He was naturally self reliant ( some call him a loner) and was able to think of solutions to problems quickly. I would remind you that he quickly corrected himself ( covered up a slip of the tongue) when he was debating Carlos Briniguer on the radio in New Orleans. The Cuban revealed that Lee had defected from the US and went to live communist Russia. Lee retorted that he was under the auspices of the US government during that period. Then realizing that he had revealed that he had been working for the US government he quickly changed that statement saying that as an American citizen he was under the protection of the U.S.government.
With that I'll take my leave...and wish you well....
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A couple of points in rebuttal and then I believe I'll take a hiatus
With that I'll take my leave...and wish you well....
Yeah, well make ita bloody long one and do us all a favour. Why would anyone post that on a forum anyway? Did you imagine every member was going to post back begging you not to go? :'( :'(
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Russian speaking Oswald sent a letter in English to the Soviet Embassy?
Posted by: Steve M. Galbraith
? on: Today at 09:15:35 PM ? A managed story it seems. "They" didn't come along until after the assassination and contrived the whole incident. Where did the whole trip to Mexico story come from?
And..Is this really our Harvey? A liaison there way back then?
Dispatch HMMA-32243 of 13 June 1967, covering TX-1937 of 26 May 1967; Chapter IV, 38.
https://www.history-matters.com/pds/DP3_Overview.htm
I have searched every Oswald in Mexico City link possible since the thread was originally started and I cannot find one mention of one very important document....What about Oswald's passport? He had to have one to request a visa to Cuba...Russia....or Timbuktu.
(http://www.jfk-info.com/lho-pass.jpg) (https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/MoreMexicoMysteries/images/Oswald_Passport_F-194.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/04/Pict_statesecret_ch3_passport.png) The application made...what happened to this new passport? Or, was it ever issued?A long super essay about everything here.........
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html
Interesting read. Thanks!
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Oleg Nechiporenko, the then Vice Consul for the Soviet Consulate in Mexico City, recalled in his book on Oswald that on September 27th 1963 a man came to ask for a visa to the Soviet Union and:
"Presented his American passport, issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. He also showed a marriage certificate to Marina Prusakova. Nechiporenko told historian Peter Dale Scott that he had not the slightest doubt that the man he met at the Soviet Embassy was Lee Harvey Oswald - or else "his identical twin".
From Nechiporenko's book: "Passport to Assassination", pp 66-67
And this: Patricia Winston, an Australian youg woman who along with her friend were on a bus headed to Mexico City: "It was on the bus to Mexico City that we encountered Lee Oswald. He heard us speaking English and wanted to talk to us, and so we talked about our travels and he told us that he'd been to Russia. He went, then, and got his passport and showed us the Russian stamp on his passport."
From PBS Frontline's "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"
link: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/oswald/transcript/
And one more: Pamela Mumford accompanied Winston on the bus. She testified that she met and talked to Oswald on the bus headed towards Mexico City.
Here, in part, is her WC testimony:
Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very much like to go to Australia.
He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.
And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying.
At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at all. But We noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand.
source/link: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mumford.htm
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From Nechiporenko's book:
I believe Mr Graves has posted about that. And this: Patricia Winston, an Australian young woman who along with her friend were on a bus headed to Mexico City: "It was on the bus to Mexico City that we encountered Lee Oswald. He heard us speaking English and wanted to talk to us, and so we talked about our travels and he told us that he'd been to Russia. He went, then, and got his passport and showed us the Russian stamp on his passport."
It seems strange or at least out of character for the normally recluse and snobby Lee to engage in friendly chit chat with a stranger and show them all of his confidential information. And what did he do...show them his expired passport? Supposedly--as I understand it---he had applied for a new one... June 24, 1963: LHO applies for a new passport.
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
...also don't we still wonder what ever happened to that particular passport [that could not possibly have had any Russian stamps in it]?
J Hoover wrote this memo on 11-22-63 ... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page
Note that he stated that "Oswald was not a communist and that Oswald had been to Cuba on several occasions"
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Hoover was insane.... Power corrupts..... Absolute power, corrupts absolutely. Hoover was mad with power....He had his own small band of loyal agents who answered only to Hoover, and they would jump like puppets on a string at anything Hoover suggested. They had sent Lee to MC to try to obtain a visa to Cuba. They wanted to tie Lee Oswald to Castro so that after they murdered JFK they could blame Castro and attack Cuba.
From an earlier reply...J Hoover wrote this memo on 11-22-63 ... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page
Note that he stated that "Oswald was not a communist and that Oswald had been to Cuba on several occasions"
How did/could he possibly know that? Unless..there was indeed an imposter gallivanting around posing as Oswald.
The memo was sent to "his own small band of loyal agents"
No doubt Jane Edna Hoover played footsie with whoever had the drop on him...organized crime/mob/mafia whatever... He knew Kennedy was going to retire him.
Oh don't forget... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking
Everybody wanted Havana back for their own personal playground.
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From an earlier reply...How did/could he possibly know that? Unless..there was indeed an imposter gallivanting around posing as Oswald.
The memo was sent to "his own small band of loyal agents"
No doubt Jane Edna Hoover played footsie with whoever had the drop on him...organized crime/mob/mafia whatever... He knew Kennedy was going to retire him.
Oh don't forget... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking
Everybody wanted Havana back for their own personal playground.
Everybody wanted Havana back for their own personal playground.
The Mob wanted Havana.... HL Hunt wanted Cuban oil and sugar production .... (Incidentally HL Hunt and J.Edgar Hoover were close personal friends.... If Hoover needed financing for a project ( like paying a hit man to kill Marilyn Monroe) ) HL Hunt just dipped into his pocket and forked over the funds.
Notice that this memo was written about 3:01 CST 11 /22/63 ......And Hoover already has the story (Lies) created. Lee had been arrested about an hour earlier.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=
Notice that Hoover says that Lee went to Cuba on several occasions but he wouldn't tell the FBI why he went to Cuba.
Amazing!!... WHEN would Lee have gone to Cuba on several occasions??? This document ( hoover memo) is astounding...What a pack of lies!!
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From an earlier reply...How did/could he possibly know that? Unless..there was indeed an imposter gallivanting around posing as Oswald.
The memo was sent to "his own small band of loyal agents"
No doubt Jane Edna Hoover played footsie with whoever had the drop on him...organized crime/mob/mafia whatever... He knew Kennedy was going to retire him.
Oh don't forget... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking
Everybody wanted Havana back for their own personal playground.
The memo was sent to "his own small band of loyal agents"
No the memo was NOT sent to his private secret band of loyal agents..... That memo was sent to his staff .... Hoover had a band of "extra Special " Special agents like Guy Bannister and Henry Wade... Who allegedly were "retired" FBI agents, but in reality were still on Hoover's payroll.
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"extra Special " Special agents like Guy Bannister and Henry Wade... Who allegedly were "retired" FBI agents, but in reality were still on Hoover's payroll.
Xtra special...OK Thumb1:
But we know that Wade was not really a retired agent--- only in the FBI four years ...however he was very much in the loop.
BTW Guy Banister was retired...a 20 yr service in the FBI..... ::) [20 years --woopie crap]
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Here are two links to photos of the draft notes/letter that Oswald wrote (experts concluded the handwriting was his) where he mentions going to Mexico City and visiting the Cuban and Soviet embassies/facilities.
Page One: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467
Page Two: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=468&tab=page
Oswald would type a letter - using Ruth Paine's typewriter (FBI experts verified the letter was typed on it) - based on the above draft notes that he would send to the Soviet Embassy mentioning his visit. Both Ruth and Marina testified that they saw him type the letter. The handwriting on the envelope was verified as belonging to Oswald.
That letter is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=57&tab=page
We have numerous eyewitness accounts that Oswald went to MC, we have physical evidence, photos, letters, handwriting/signature, circumstantial evidence. If you don't want to believe he went to Mexico City then you have to argue that all of this was faked or planted or wrong. All of it.
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Here are two links to photos of the draft notes/letter that Oswald wrote (experts concluded the handwriting was his) where he mentions going to Mexico City and visiting the Cuban and Soviet embassies/facilities.
Page One: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467
Page Two: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=468&tab=page
Oswald would type a letter - using Ruth Paine's typewriter (FBI experts verified the letter was type on it) - based on the above draft notes that he would send to the Soviet Embassy mentioning his visit. Both Ruth and Marina testified that they saw him type the letter. The handwriting on the envelope was verified as belonging to Oswald.
That letter is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=57&tab=page
We have numerous eyewitness accounts that Oswald went to MC, we have physical evidence, photos, letters, handwriting/signature, circumstantial evidence. If you don't want to believe he went to Mexico City then you have to argue that all of this was faked or planted or wrong. All of it.
The information in the Letter to the Russian embassy was in reality intended for the FBI. It is common knowledge that the FBI was reading all the mail that was sent through the US postal system to the Russian Embassy. Lee was reporting that he had been unsuccessful in his mission to Mexico City. He had been unable to obtain the Cuban visa. ( Duplicious Hoover had sent Lee to MC to try to obtain a Cuban Visa which would be used after the murder of JFK to connect Oswald to Cuba)
Recall in his memo of 3:01 PM 11 / 22 /63 Hoover wrote that Lee Oswald had been to Cuba several times, which was a damned lie, but Hoover thought that he could tie Lee Oswald to Castro, with that lie.
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That letter is here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=57&tab=page We have numerous eyewitness accounts that Oswald went to MC, we have physical evidence, photos, letters, handwriting/signature, circumstantial evidence. If you don't want to believe he went to Mexico City then you have to argue that all of this was faked or planted or wrong. All of it.
You have brought all of this conveniently left behind for everyone to see evidence up earlier in the thread more than once and it has been discussed. What bilingual person saves their rough draft notes [in English] for a typed correspondence to be delivered to the Russians [in English] that states really nothing. Oswald knew how to spell his own wife's name demonstrated in other correspondence..but the typed letter doesn't spell it nearly right at all. Can we say it all stinks-- even after 56 years?
we have physical evidence, photos, letters, handwriting/signature
We don't have jack crap.
circumstantial evidence.
Yes plenty of that.
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You have brought all of this conveniently left behind for everyone to see evidence up earlier in the thread more than once and it has been discussed. What bilingual person saves their rough draft notes [in English] for a typed correspondence to be delivered to the Russians [in English] that states really nothing. Oswald knew how to spell his own wife's name demonstrated in other correspondence..but the typed letter doesn't spell it nearly right at all. Can we say it all stinks-- even after 56 years?
We don't have jack crap. Yes plenty of that.
There is unsolved controversy about the letter to the Russian embassy..... Originally Ruth Paine said that Lee had asked to use her Cyrillic typewriter to write the letter to the Russian Embassy. ( that makes sense if you think about it) But when she spied on Lee and read the rough draft of the letter ( and copied it) she became angry because Lee had referred the the FBI as "notorious" she told him her Cyrillic typewriter was broken. So he was forced to use the English typewriter ( Ruth was far more fluent in English and could read what ever Lee wrote.)
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I believe Mr Graves has posted about that. It seems strange or at least out of character for the normally recluse and snobby Lee to engage in friendly chit chat with a stranger and show them all of his confidential information. And what did he do...show them his expired passport? Supposedly--as I understand it---he had applied for a new one... http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
...also don't we still wonder what ever happened to that particular passport [that could not possibly have had any Russian stamps in it]?
J Hoover wrote this memo on 11-22-63 ... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page
Note that he stated that "Oswald was not a communist and that Oswald had been to Cuba on several occasions"
Let's parse Hoover's memo which was typed at 3:01 PM CST 11 / 22 /63 .....There are several items that Hoover couldn't have known at 3:01 because the interrogation of Lee Oswald didn't begin until 3 : 15.....
A) How did Hoover know that Lee was employed at the TSBD ? ..... That information came out during the interrogation, and FBI agent Hosty claimed that they didn't know that Lee was working in he TSBD.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page
Notice that Hoover states that the rifle had been left in the building.....WHY?? What was so important about this that Hoover mentions it in the early memo?.... I believe Hoover was basically reviewing the story they had concocted prior to the coup.
Hoover says that Lee Oswald had pulled a side arm on two cops who confronted him and he shot one of the cops....
How utterly ridiculous!!..... But perhaps that was what they had concocted earlier when they were plotting the murder....
First off nobody could have hit a elephant at 50 feet, with that sawed off piece of junk revolver that they claimed was Lee's. And secondly... If two cops confronted Lee and he shot at them. he would have been killed by their return fire....
Hoover says that RFK asked him if Oswald was a communist..... No such question was asked by Bobby K .....
Hoover says that Lee had gone to Cuba on several occasions ( a damned lie) and he ( LHO) wouldn't tell them why he had gone to Cuba.... Obviously Hoover is reviewing the concocted tale that would tie Lee Oswald with Cuba ( Castro) .....
The subject of Cuba never was broached during the interrogation of Lee....There was no mention of Cuba. However, FBI agent Hosty DID try to get Lee to admit that he had been in Mexico City in September ..... This was Hosty's idea, and he hoped to get Lee to admit it so he could tie Lee to the Cuban Embassy where a man using the name Oswald had ranted and cursed and blurted out..."That SOB Kennedy, someone ought to shoot him!"
Hosty knew about the Cuban embassy episode and wanted to trap Lee into admitting that it was he who had said that, in a stupid misguided effort to try to get the Cuban visa.
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You have brought all of this conveniently left behind for everyone to see evidence up earlier in the thread more than once and it has been discussed. What bilingual person saves their rough draft notes [in English] for a typed correspondence to be delivered to the Russians [in English] that states really nothing. Oswald knew how to spell his own wife's name demonstrated in other correspondence..but the typed letter doesn't spell it nearly right at all. Can we say it all stinks-- even after 56 years?
We don't have jack crap. Yes plenty of that.
Of course. Every piece of evidence is faked, planted, altered, staged, made up, falsified.
The draft notes were identified as having been written by Oswald. Your response is to say, "What person saves their draft notes?" Well, Oswald did. But that fact is then dismissed. The letter sent to the Soviet Embassy where Oswald mentions the visit is dismissed as faked. Marina and Ruth say they saw him type it. But you will say they lied. The FBI said it was typed on Ruth's typewriter. But you will say they lied. On and on and on.
What evidence can be produced to show to you he went there? Is there anything?
Just say it: nothing will persuade you he went to Mexico City. Whatever evidence is presented will be dismissed as being staged. Not only will you say it's faked, you'll say that the evidence indicating he went to Mexico City is actually evidence he didn't. If the CIA released ten photos of Oswald outside of the embassies you would say it's proof he didn't go because they were faked.
This is the conspiracist mindset. Up is down and down is up. Evidence of "A" is actually evidence not of "A".
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Just say it: nothing will persuade you he went to Mexico City. Whatever evidence is presented will be dismissed as being staged.
No..... Nothing has CONVINCED me that he really did. Now there is the difference. I believe that an imposter must have gone about in his name.
For the very reason that other posters have speculated...that the idea was to implicate Castro behind the assassination.
What I do contend is that the only thing about this case that makes any sense is that nothing else about it makes any sense. Why in these days of lying, deceiving, stab in the back politics running amuck would anyone think it was all that different back then?
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No..... Nothing has CONVINCED me that he really did. Now there is the difference. I believe that an imposter must have gone about in his name.
For the very reason that other posters have speculated...that the idea was to implicate Castro behind the assassination.
What I do contend is that the only thing about this case that makes any sense is that nothing else about it makes any sense. Why in these days of lying, deceiving, stab in the back politics running amuck would anyone think it was all that different back then?
Why in these days of lying, deceiving, stab in the back politics running amuck would anyone think it was all that different back then?
Nothing is new under the sun..... I'm often amazed at the similarities between the cut throat, back stabbing politics in the US in 1963, and the politics in Germany in 1944 / 45..... Hitler was loathed by many of his Generals and Admirals who totally disagreed with his solution to the "Jewish problem". Some of them were plotting to kill Hitler.
Many military men in the Pentagon disagreed with JFK on his handling of various crisis situations like BOP, and the Missile crisis. And they were plotting to remove him from office.... By the fall of 1963, they could see that JFK's popularity had grown and he probably would win a second term. They were desperate and some said that the only way to get him out of the Presidency was to shoot him out.... Hoover and LBJ liked that option.
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If he didn't go to Mexico City, where was he for those 7 or 8 days?
From memory (and I'm sure people will shoot me down immediately if I am wrong) but wasn't there sightings or evidence of him being in New Orleans either side of the dates he was in Mexico? Seems a bit of a coincidence that if he didn't go nobody saw him during that time.
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If he didn't go to Mexico City, where was he for those 7 or 8 days?
Only the shadow knows :-\
Read this.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvia_Odio
She had to be discredited.
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If he didn't go to Mexico City, where was he for those 7 or 8 days?
From memory (and I'm sure people will shoot me down immediately if I am wrong) but wasn't there sightings or evidence of him being in New Orleans either side of the dates he was in Mexico? Seems a bit of a coincidence that if he didn't go nobody saw him during that time.
Lee Oswald went to Mexico City..... As requested by the conspirators ( Hoover's Extra Special agents) and he tried to get a Cuban Visa. Which would connect him to Cuba ( Castro) After the conspirators murdered JFK and blamed the dead Oswald for the murder they would have proof that he was in cahoots with Castro , and would use that as justification to attack Cuba.
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Lee Oswald went to Mexico City..... As requested by the conspirators ( Hoover's Extra Special agents) and he tried to get a Cuban Visa. Which would connect him to Cuba ( Castro) After the conspirators murdered JFK and blamed the dead Oswald for the murder they would have proof that he was in cahoots with Castro , and would use that as justification to attack Cuba.
:D
So these so called "conspirators" went to all the trouble of getting Oswald to go to Mexico City, in order to prove that he was in cahoots with Castro, yet failed to ensure they got a single shed of hard evidence to prove he was actually there. No photos of him at either Embassy and claims by several witnesses that they saw a look-a-like and not Oswald? I think Hoover's Extra Special Agents would have covered their tracks a bit more and planned ahead to produced evidence beyond any doubt if your theory was in fact true and not a load of conspiratory wank.
For the record, I personally choose to believe he was in Mexico City, but not due to the ridiculous reason you suggest
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:D
So these so called "conspirators" went to all the trouble of getting Oswald to go to Mexico City, in order to prove that he was in cahoots with Castro, yet failed to ensure they got a single shed of hard evidence to prove he was actually there. No photos of him at either Embassy and claims by several witnesses that they saw a look-a-like and not Oswald? I think Hoover's Extra Special Agents would have covered their tracks a bit more and planned ahead to produced evidence beyond any doubt if your theory was in fact true and not a load of conspiratory wank.
For the record, I personally choose to believe he was in Mexico City, but not due to the ridiculous reason you suggest
The conspirators never anticipated that Lee would emerge alive from the TSBD. The script called for him to be shot and killed by an "alert cop" in the TSBD....
After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba, and they didn't dare attack Cuba they had to "erase" Oswald's trip to Mexico city....and in fact they confused the issue by presenting photos of a man that obviously was NOT Lee Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico city. By introducing this "evidence" they had suckers believing that Lee had NOT gone to Mexico City.
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The conspirators never anticipated that Lee would emerge alive from the TSBD. The script called for him to be shot and killed by an "alert cop" in the TSBD....
After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba, and they didn't dare attack Cuba they had to "erase" Oswald's trip to Mexico city....and in fact they confused the issue by presenting photos of a man that obviously was NOT Lee Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico city. By introducing this "evidence" they had suckers believing that Lee had NOT gone to Mexico City.
And yet the Warren Commission, who has been accused of lying, omitting vital evidence and completely ignoring witness statements entirely in order to come to the conclusion the government allegedly wanted it to, clearly stated that Oswald did go to Mexico City.
Without any conclusive evidence surely it would have been just as easy to for the WC to say that there was no evidence Oswald even went there and thus not raise the issue in the first place?
Its a nice theory and would make an entertaining movie starring Matt Damon, but as far as real life goes it's about as realistic as Moses parting the Red Sea
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The draft notes were identified as having been written by Oswald. Your response is to say, "What person saves their draft notes?" Well, Oswald did. But that fact is then dismissed.
"What person saves their draft notes?"---Let's see what persons or people didn't [or said they didn't] .....Oswald’s interrogation on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, was attended by two FBI special agents, James Hosty and James Bookhout, both of whom recorded handwritten notes. Bookhout told the Warren Commission that he destroyed his notes later,after writing a formal report, as was the FBI’s custom.1 Hosty told the Warren Commission much the same story, adding that he specifically recalled placing his notes in a wastebasket..... http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf
Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored. -Aldous Huxley
Facts are not necessarily actual facts simply because they are introduced as fact by delegated authorities. In other words, people lie when it suits them. If someone says that they have never lied...then they just told another one :-\
Lies that are told often enough and long enough eventually become historical fact.
For example... It has been long generally taught/believed that Columbus had set about to prove that the world was round and not flat....Absurd!! --he and everyone else with half a brain [since before the coming of Jesus] knew that the earth was a sphere ---it was just not known exactly how long it took to bravely sail west from Europe before land was reached.
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After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba, and they didn't dare attack Cuba they had to "erase" Oswald's trip to Mexico city....and in fact they confused the issue by presenting photos of a man that obviously was NOT Lee Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico city. By introducing this "evidence" they had suckers believing that Lee had NOT gone to Mexico City.
After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba? I am confused there...what murder? The Cuban missile crisis was in 1962. Everyone re-read this article and understand that with Latins ..look alike gringos do look alike. I have experienced this first hand---
Most people agree that a man calling himself Oswald visited Mexico City for a few days between the 27th of September and the 2nd of October. Most people agree that he went back and forth on the 27th between the Cuban consulate and the Soviet consulate - trying to get a visa to visit both countries and failing at both - with one last stab at the Soviet consulate on the 28th.
At the Cuban consulate, consul Eusebio Azcue insisted that the man he met was not Oswald. The other consul, Alfredo Mirabel, was equally insistent that the man was Oswald. This kind of sharp division makes it hard to determine if Oswald ever came to Mexico City. Jack Whitten, who was the CIA’s original investigator of the assassination, wrote in the days after 11/22 that “no source then at our disposal had ever actually seen Lee Oswald while he was in Mexico". That is remarkable, as the CIA’s sources inside the Cuban compound later told House Select Committee on Assassinations staffer Ed Lopez that the man who visited them was not Oswald.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html
The contradictions are glaring huh? So prove to me that Oswald really went to Mexico-- why should I have to prove that he didn't? I have repeatedly posted several times affirmation/assertion that it looks quite doubtful.
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After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba? I am confused there...what murder? The Cuban missile crisis was in 1962. Everyone re-read this article and understand that with Latins ..look alike gringos do look alike. I have experienced this first hand---
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter3.html
The contradictions are glaring huh? So prove to me that Oswald really went to Mexico-- why should I have to prove that he didn't? I have repeatedly posted several times affirmation/assertion that it looks quite doubtful.
After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba[/b]? I am confused there...what murder? The Cuban missile crisis was in 1962.
Yes, the missile crisis was in the autumn of 62.... JFK defused the crisis by agreeing to remove US missiles from Turkey if the Russians removed their missiles from Cuba. However many powerful and influential people in the US didn't believe that Khrueschev had removed all of the Russian missiles.... and U-2 over flights seemed to confirm that there were still missiles in Cuba. ( This is exactly the reason that JFK wanted to place agents like Lee Oswald who spoke fluent Russian in Cuba.)
So .....After the murder ( of JFK) when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba, and they didn't dare attack Cuba they had to "erase" Oswald's trip to Mexico city....and in fact they confused the issue by presenting photos of a man that obviously was NOT Lee Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico city.
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After the murder when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba[/b]? I am confused there...what murder? The Cuban missile crisis was in 1962.
Yes, the missile crisis was in the autumn of 62.... JFK defused the crisis by agreeing to remove US missiles from Turkey if the Russians removed their missiles from Cuba. However many powerful and influential people in the US didn't believe that Khrueschev had removed all of the Russian missiles.... and U-2 over flights seemed to confirm that there were still missiles in Cuba. ( This is exactly the reason that JFK wanted to place agents like Lee Oswald who spoke fluent Russian in Cuba.)
So .....After the murder ( of JFK) when LBJ learned that there were Russians and nuclear missiles in Cuba, and they didn't dare attack Cuba they had to "erase" Oswald's trip to Mexico city....and in fact they confused the issue by presenting photos of a man that obviously was NOT Lee Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico city.
This still makes no sense!
The official verdict of the Warren Commission was that Oswald acted alone, so why the need to attempt to hush up his trip to Mexico?
And even if your theory was correct, the W.C. would have had to change and lie about so many things to convincingly arrive to their LN conclusion that if they really wanted to "erase" his trip to Mexico they easily could have done.
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This still makes no sense!
The official verdict of the Warren Commission was that Oswald acted alone, so why the need to attempt to hush up his trip to Mexico?
And even if your theory was correct, the W.C. would have had to change and lie about so many things to convincingly arrive to their LN conclusion that if they really wanted to "erase" his trip to Mexico they easily could have done.
The official verdict of the Warren Commission was that Oswald acted alone, so why the need to attempt to hush up his trip to Mexico?
The trip to Mexico City was designed to make it appear that Lee Oswald was in cahoots with Castro, and he murdered JFK as Castro's agent. ( Just minutes after Lee was taken to the police station, Hoover wrote a memo at 3:01 pm CST in which he said that Lee had been to Cuba on several occasions but would not reveal why he went to Cuba. Hoover was lying ....but the point is; in the early aftermath of the assassination Hoover was trying to create evidence that would tie Lee Oswald to Fidel Castro, and give LBJ reason to attack Cuba. )
When LBJ learned from U-2 photos that the Russians in Cuba, had rolled out the nuclear missiles just minutes after JFK was murdered, he realized that he could not order an attack on Cuba , and they would have to abandon their charges that Lee Oswald was a communist in cahoots with Castro. Thus they had to erase Lee's visit to the Cuban embassy in Mexico City.... Which they did by introducing confusion and photos of a man who clearly is not Lee Oswald.
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I would like to change the topic to..How can we be absolutely and completely positive that Oswald actually really and truly went to Mexico City?
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I would like to change the topic to..How can we be absolutely and completely positive that Oswald actually really and truly went to Mexico City?
Freeman,
Too late.
Sorry.
-- MWT ;)
PS Any thoughts on why Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue described the Oswald they'd dealt with at the Cuban Consulate in such a way as to perfectly describe short, skinny, 35 year-old, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov ("Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy), or why the man who impersonated Oswald in telephone calls on Saturday, September 28 and Tuesday, October 2 spoke bad Russian and bad English?
Regarding that last question, I believe the impersonator naturally spoke bad English, and went out of his way to speak bad Russian, not realizing that Oswald spoke it quite well.
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The trip to Mexico City was designed to make it appear that Lee Oswald was in cahoots with Castro, and he murdered JFK as Castro's agent.
That ploy [the alleged trip] was structured by the deep state rogue conspirators and anti-Castro assets. ( Just minutes after Lee was taken to the police station, Hoover wrote a memo at 3:01 pm CST in which he said that Lee had been to Cuba on several occasions but would not reveal why he went to Cuba. Hoover was lying .
Hoover was TOLD that Oswald had been to Cuba. Now...if Oswald had the means to go to Cuba before--then why would he need to go to Mexico City and hustle for a Cuban visa? Passports [which I say for the **umpteenth time Oswald didn't really have] are always meticulously stamped by customs of the receiving country.
**Logically--A current passport would have been found in Oswald's belongings...it wasn't but why not? Incriminating crap was "found" all over Mrs Paine's garage!
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Oleg Nechiporenko, the then Vice Consul for the Soviet Consulate in Mexico City, recalled in his book on Oswald that on September 27th 1963 a man came to ask for a visa to the Soviet Union and:
"Presented his American passport, issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. He also showed a marriage certificate to Marina Prusakova. Nechiporenko told historian Peter Dale Scott that he had not the slightest doubt that the man he met at the Soviet Embassy was Lee Harvey Oswald - or else "his identical twin".
From Nechiporenko's book: "Passport to Assassination", pp 66-67
And this: Patricia Winston, an Australian youg woman who along with her friend were on a bus headed to Mexico City: "It was on the bus to Mexico City that we encountered Lee Oswald. He heard us speaking English and wanted to talk to us, and so we talked about our travels and he told us that he'd been to Russia. He went, then, and got his passport and showed us the Russian stamp on his passport."
From PBS Frontline's "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"
link: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/oswald/transcript/
And one more: Pamela Mumford accompanied Winston on the bus. She testified that she met and talked to Oswald on the bus headed towards Mexico City.
Here, in part, is her WC testimony:
Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very much like to go to Australia.
He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.
And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying.
At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at all. But We noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand.
source/link: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mumford.htm
(sigh) ... Steve M., Steve M., Steve M.,
What makes you think KGB-boy Nechiporenko was telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Because the Soviet Union had "collapsed"?
LOL
Interesting little factoid: Another KGB guy, "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikolai Leonov, without mentioning Oswald's alleged appearances at the Soviet consulate on Friday or Saturday, claimed a few years ago that he had met one-on-one with Oswald at the Soviet embassy (not consulate) on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, when Oswald showed up unexpectedly and interrupted a volleyball game (or some-such thing), and yep, Oswald got all emotional, and yep, Oswald brandished his revolver!
It's like these guys are going out of their way to paint Oswald as one crazy and dangerous dude (gosh, no wonder the KGB didn't even interview the U-2 radar operator while he was in the USSR, and no wonder they let the "suicide prone" U-2 radar operator stay in the USSR for two-and-one-half years! -- Just Like Yuri Nosenko said!) ... and as a guy who was therefore more than capable of assassinating an American president!
"And we Ruskies didn't have anything to do with it!"
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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... Steve M., Steve M., Steve M.,
There's three of him?
Here, in part, is her WC testimony:
Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very much like to go to Australia.
He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.
I stated earlier in the thread that this could not possibly have been the genuine patsy.
Oswald was a snob....Every other witness has said so. Here we have someone eager to share his whole life's story?---Pig slop.
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There's three of him?I stated earlier in the thread that this could not possibly have been the genuine patsy.
Oswald was a snob....Every other witness has said so. Here we have someone eager to share his whole life's story?---Pig slop.
Freeman,
What makes you think there was a patsy?
Because self-avowed Marxist Oswald said so?
Because he had a "crummy rifle"?
Because he occasionally got Maggie's Drawers at 500 yards?
Because Brennan observed Oswald from from below, through a dirty window, and at an acute angle?
Because you willwe, willwe, willwee don't like the evil, evil, evil Military Industrial Intelligence Community Complex?
Because ...
-- MWT ;)
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Freeman,
What makes you think there was a patsy?
Because self-avowed Marxist Oswald said so?
Because he had a "crummy rifle"?
Because he occasionally got Maggie's Drawers at 500 yards?
-- MWT ;)
Because he occasionally got Maggie's Drawers at 500 yards?
Let's hear from the Marines..... Were Marine recruits required to qualify at 500 yards? I believe the recruit was required to qualify at 100 yards....
Does old Tommy who has his head in the mud, know what he's talking about?
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Let's hear from the Marines..... Were Marine recruits required to qualify at 500 yards? I believe the recruit was required to qualify at 100 yards....
Oswald was. Now... https://www.thebalancecareers.com/marine-corps-toughens-rifle-qualification-3354415
Does old Tommy who has his head in the mud, know what he's talking about?
Just here to suck every topic that is posted off track.
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Oswald was. Now... https://www.thebalancecareers.com/marine-corps-toughens-rifle-qualification-3354415 Just here to suck every topic that is posted off track.
Does this sentence make logical sense to you?
Marines begin qualifying at the 500-yard line then advance towards the 100-yard line.
Do you suppose that someone has added a second zero to the number 50?
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Does this sentence make logical sense to you? Marines begin qualifying at the 500-yard line then advance towards the 100-yard line. Do you suppose that someone has added a second zero to the number 50?
:D That's how they are training. Figure that if someone could shoot the balls off of a fly at 500 yards--- at 100 yds they could shoot the hair off of its balls.
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:D That's how they are training. Figure that if someone could shoot the balls off of a fly at 500 yards--- at 100 yds they could shoot the hair off of its balls.
Ol Tommy "head in the mud" Graves wrote:..... "Because he occasionally got Maggie's Drawers at 500 yards?"
Tommy ....FYI I don't believe that targets were set up at 500 yards for Marine recruits..... The M1 Garand was not a sniper rifle....
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Ol Tommy "head in the mud" Graves wrote:..... "Because he occasionally got Maggie's Drawers at 500 yards?"
Tommy ....FYI I don't believe that targets were set up at 500 yards for Marine recruits..... The M1 Garand was not a sniper rifle....
"Walt",
Not much of a researcher, are you?
Although the author believes Oswald chose the incorrect rifle for assassinating JFK, he does confirm that Marine Corps M-1 training involved shooting at a target 500 yards away.
From the article:
"USMC marksmanship training included slow firing at 200 and 500 yards, and rapid fire at 300 yards."
https://www-globalresearch-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.globalresearch.ca/rifle-range-realities-vs-the-oswald-did-it-story/5657275/amp?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15803145394261&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Frifle-range-realities-vs-the-oswald-did-it-story%2F5657275
-- MWT ;)
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The three Soviet KGB officers who met Oswald say it was indeed Oswald. Two of the three Cubans at the consulate say it was Oswald. The third, the consul, said the person who he met didn't look like the Oswald who appeared on TV and arrested for the assassination. Duran's description is off but she insists it was Oswald. Duran's phone number was found in Oswald's notebook/diary.
People on the bus to Mexico City say it was Oswald. People at the hotel where he stayed say it was Oswald. Leftist Mexican students say they met a person they think was Oswald. Photos given to the Cubans are of Oswald. The signatures on them were identified as belonging to Oswald. The signature on the hotel registry was identified as Oswald. A Mexican visa given to a Oswald had, according to handwriting experts, Oswald's signature on it.
Marina said he told her he went there. Oswald wrote a draft letter - his handwriting - where he discussed going to Mexico City and failing to get a visa. A typewritten letter - typed on Ruth Paine's typewriter by Oswald (according to Ruth and Marina) - mentioning the trip and based on the draft notes found was sent to the Soviet Embassy. The signature on the letter belonged to Oswald. The writing on the envelope belonged to Oswald.
On and on and on....
You can say all of this is fake, a lie, a deception. In which case: never mind. Whatever evidence is shown that he went there will be dismissed as false. What's the use of continuing the discussion?
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... why did FBI agent Hosty and Curry Fritz say he denied going there? He was dead. Hosty and Curry Fritz could have said he admitted going there. Why didn't Hoover order Hosty to say Oswald admitted he went to MC? They could say anything and he couldn't refute it.
And has been going on with this strawman-coulda-shoulda-woulda ever since. What's the use of continuing the discussion?
And yet it continues for another year.
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The three Soviet KGB officers who met Oswald say it was indeed Oswald. Two of the three Cubans at the consulate say it was Oswald. The third, the consul, said the person who he met didn't look like the Oswald who appeared on TV and arrested for the assassination. Duran's description is off but she insists it was Oswald. Duran's phone number was found in Oswald's notebook/diary.
People on the bus to Mexico City say it was Oswald. People at the hotel where he stayed say it was Oswald. Leftist Mexican students say they met a person they think was Oswald. Photos given to the Cubans are of Oswald. The signatures on them were identified as belonging to Oswald. The signature on the hotel registry was identified as Oswald. A Mexican visa given to a Oswald had, according to handwriting experts, Oswald's signature on it.
Marina said he told her he went there. Oswald wrote a draft letter - his handwriting - where he discussed going to Mexico City and failing to get a visa. A typewritten letter - typed on Ruth Paine's typewriter by Oswald (according to Ruth and Marina) - mentioning the trip and based on the draft notes found was sent to the Soviet Embassy. The signature on the letter belonged to Oswald. The writing on the envelope belonged to Oswald.
On and on and on....
You can say all of this is fake, a lie, a deception. In which case: never mind. Whatever evidence is shown that he went there will be dismissed as false. What's the use of continuing the discussion?
Steve M.,
As someone has pointed out, Oswald was a snob and therefore unlikely to have been so gregarious and out-going with complete strangers on a long-distance bus.
If you are so gullible as to believe what KGB officers Nechiporenko, Yatskov and Kostikov said after the alleged fall of the Soviet Union, is it fair to say that you also believe KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov ("Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy) when he implausibly says he met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet embassy (not the consulate) on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29?
And why in the world would anyone believe probable KGB "honeytrapper" Marina (who, for example, claimed not to know her father's name, but used it in her name, anyway)?
The combined descriptions that Duran and Azcue gave of the man they'd dealt with on Friday, September 27, fit KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (who probably gave Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald that had been taken in the USSR, and who probably told Duran and Azcue what to do and say) to a "T".
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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"Did LHO go to Mexico?"
No, he did not and here's some good info about it:
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-last-letter-the-scorching-hot-potato
In addition, it makes no sense or defies all plausibility that Hoover would lie about the "...the man who appears to be impersonating the man in the Dallas jail."
In addition, the embassy was the hottest one during the Cold War with multiple cameras snapping away daily on folks coming and going. How is it that the only photos revealed there during this time was the burly crew-cut guy who they tried to say it was Oswald?
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"Did LHO go to Mexico?"
No, he did not and here's some good info about it:
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-last-letter-the-scorching-hot-potato
In addition, it makes no sense or defies all plausibility that Hoover would lie about the "...the man who appears to be impersonating the man in the Dallas jail."
In addition, the embassy was the hottest one during the Cold War with multiple cameras snapping away daily on folks coming and going. How is it that the only photos revealed there during this time was the burly crew-cut guy who they tried to say it was Oswald?
James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum and of the above-linked website is full of beans.
It appears that he has never met an anti-CIA or anti-FBI, etc., tinfoil hat conspiracy theory (or a Communist, for that matter) that he doesn't love.
He's now enamored with Donald Trump, a "useful idiot" of former-Communist (but current-Fascist) KGB-boy mafioso Vladimir Putin.
-- MWT ;)
PS Here's something I recently posted on Facebook:
For all you spy-minded history buffs out there --
Although the CIA memo referenced in the October 27, 2017 article (below) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald told the Mexico City Soviet embassy's security guard over the phone that he'd met with KGB's putative "Department 13" (sabotage and assassinations) officer Valiery Kostikov at the M.C. Soviet consulate a couple of days earlier (on Saturday, September 28, 1963), when you read the CIA's transcript of the intercepted call, you realize that Oswald (or an impostor?) "couldn't remember" Kostikov's name, and the security guard, Ivan Obyedkov (whom, according to what CIA counterintelligence chief James Angleton told the Church Committee in 1975 and 1976, the CIA thought it had recruited but in reality was still loyal to the Kremlin), "volunteered" Kostikov's name to Oswald or "Oswald," and thereby, when the assassination of President Kennedy occurred in Dallas two months later, proactively planted in J. Edgar Hoover's mind the specter of U.S.- USSR Nuclear Armageddon (in colloquial terms, a "WW III Virus"), which, in addition to the fact that his beloved FBI had evidently failed to monitor Oswald closely enough after he'd returned from the USSR with a probable KGB Soviet wife) strongly motivated Hoover to cover up the Soviet Union's and Cuba's involvement in the assassination of JFK.
Headline: "The release this week of thousands of previously classified U.S. documents about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy has drawn renewed attention to his shooter's contacts with the KGB two months before the killing."
https://www.rferl.org/a/us-ussr-kennedy-assassination-oswald-kgb-contact-mexico-assassinations-officer/28819941.html
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And has been going on with this strawman-coulda-shoulda-woulda ever since.And yet it continues for another year.
The, as you call it, strawman question is a question you can't answer and therefore simply dismiss. If you try to answer it your whole conspiracy theory about Mexico City falls apart. It implodes on its own contradictions.
Again: If the FBI framed Oswald as going to Mexico City then why didn't they say he admitted going there? It makes no sense that they would both frame him and then clear him. He was dead. They can say he admitted to going there.
If you were framing Oswald for this is that what you would do?
What evidence would you accept that he wasn't framed for going to Mexico City? There isn't any. If I present evidence - eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence - that he went there, you just dismiss it as all faked.
You then demand that one proves a negative. That is: Prove he didn't go to Mexico City? Prove he wasn't framed that he went to Mexico City? The only way one can even try to do so is to, as I said above, ask the above questions. Such as: if they framed him for this then why didn't they say he admitted going there? If the goal is to frame him for going to Mexico City then frame him by saying he said he did. Again: He's dead. He cannot refute it.
You don't like the evidence that he went to Mexico City. And you don't like the above questions - strawman you call them - that attempt to prove a negative.
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Steve M.,
As someone has pointed out, Oswald was a snob and therefore unlikely to have been so gregarious and out-going with complete strangers on a long-distance bus.
If you are so gullible as to believe what KGB officers Nechiporenko, Yatskov and Kostikov said after the alleged fall of the Soviet Union, is it fair to say that you also believe KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov ("Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy) when he implausibly says he met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet embassy (not the consulate) on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29?
And why in the world would anyone believe probable KGB "honeytrapper" Marina (who, for example, claimed not to know her father's name, but used it in her name, anyway)?
The combined descriptions that Duran and Azcue gave of the man they'd dealt with on Friday, September 27, fit KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (who probably gave Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald that had been taken in the USSR, and who probably told Duran and Azcue what to do and say) to a "T".
LOL
-- MWT ;)
You believe the communist Azcue. You cannot say I am "gullible" for believing the communist KGB agents and also say that you get to believe the communist Azcue.
You need to apply your own rules to your own arguments.
Second: I do not believe Oswald went to MC because these agents said he did. I believe the totality of evidence: the eyewitnesses, the physical evidence, and the circumstantial evidence. All of it combined indicates he went to Mexico City.
You dismiss all of this as being faked or staged. Fine, believe what you want but don't ask for evidence and then when presented it simply say it's faked. This is what the "CIA killed JFK" conspiracy advocates do. You know that their thinking is illogical. You should be able to recognize that your own thinking is also illogical.
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"Did LHO go to Mexico?"
No, he did not and here's some good info about it:
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-last-letter-the-scorching-hot-potato
In addition, it makes no sense or defies all plausibility that Hoover would lie about the "...the man who appears to be impersonating the man in the Dallas jail."
In addition, the embassy was the hottest one during the Cold War with multiple cameras snapping away daily on folks coming and going. How is it that the only photos revealed there during this time was the burly crew-cut guy who they tried to say it was Oswald?
Nobody say said the "burly crew cut" guy said he was Oswald. No one.
Second, the HSCA investigated the matter and determined that the cameras covering the embassies/consulate were down during that period. No photos of anyone - none - were taken that Friday that he went to the buildings.
And the CIA did not have photo coverage of the facilities on Saturday.
If the CIA was framing Oswald on this then why release a photo of a guy that is clearly not Oswald? Doesn't that expose their framing? Of course it does. Which is why it - the man said he was Oswald - didn't happen.
Again: no one said that man in the photos identified himself as Oswald. The KGB officers at the Soviet Embassy said the man did not identify himself as Oswald. One of them, Oleg Nechiporenko, said he knew the man and said he never said he was Oswald. They all said the man they met was the real Oswald.
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If the CIA was framing Oswald on this then why release a photo of a guy that is clearly not Oswald? Doesn't that expose their framing?
Coupled with Oswalds signature on the hotel guestbook it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum and of the above-linked website is full of beans.
Tom, if you take all of the pet theories and name-calling away and just look at the cold facts of the case, the events of Oswald's life the last 18 months or so he was alive are too numerous for it to be mere coincidence. My father - 1,000 miles away from Oswald - was also doing the exact same kind of work (warehouse) as Oswald was. But where were all of these right-wing Russians literally hanging on to him? Where was the friendly Quaker neighbor driving him and/or my [deaf Mom] around? Where was that same neighbor nosing around and typing up my Dad's correspondence? And so on...
People like to paint LHO as some madman but the evidence proves otherwise. And I don't really care about getting into the "who did it" guessing game. *Someone* was steering this guy around and my hunch is he was most probably supposed to be gunned down in some kind of fake shootout before he ever had the chance to blurt out that he was a patsty. The lesser he was to say, the better.
If you go from A [Hoover saying the voice/photo does not match LHO] to B [he said he was a patsy] to C [his death on live TV before he could say more] everything else said above then makes perfect sense.
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Coupled with Oswalds signature on the hotel guestbook it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
How to fake a signature.....If you want to forge a signature using tracing paper, first place the sheet of paper over the original signature and lightly trace it with a pencil. Then, place the tracing paper over the space you want to copy it to, and go over the signature a little harder with a pencil to imprint the signature.
https://www.wikihow.com/Forge-a-Signature
Easy-breezy- cheezie
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You believe the communist Azcue. You cannot say I am "gullible" for believing the communist KGB agents and also say that you get to believe the communist Azcue.
You need to apply your own rules to your own arguments.
Second: I do not believe Oswald went to MC because these agents said he did. I believe the totality of evidence: the eyewitnesses, the physical evidence, and the circumstantial evidence. All of it combined indicates he went to Mexico City.
You dismiss all of this as being faked or staged. Fine, believe what you want but don't ask for evidence and then when presented it simply say it's faked. This is what the "CIA killed JFK" conspiracy advocates do. You know that their thinking is illogical. You should be able to recognize that your own thinking is also illogical.
Steve "M.",
Can you think of any reason for Azcue's describing the man who allegedly gave Sylvia Duran the passport-sized photos of Oswald (which look to me as though they were taken in the USSR when Oswald's hair and face were fuller and he apparently liked to wear his sweater vest) and probably the already forged visa application in such a way that perfectly described KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, whom we know was working under diplomatic cover at the Soviet embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache," and who was photographed by the CIA near said embassy one day after "Oswald's" October 1st "Kostikov" phone call (wearing what could very well be a dark blue Prince of Wales suit with reddish pinstripes / highlights)?
Unfortunately, the two CIA photos that were taken of him that day, although they do show his blond hair and his thin physique, do not do justice to his "very thin face" nor his blue eyes not his short (5' 7") stature nor his 35 years-of-age.
-- MWT ;)
PS What are the chances Oswald wore that sweater vest to or in Mexico City in late September? Was he expecting cool or cold weather there?
LOL
PPS What do you know about Guenter Schulz (Hoover's "Tumbleweed")?
Aleksei Kulak (Hoover's beloved "Fedora")?
Oleg Brykin at the U.N.?
Valiery Kostikov at the Soviet consulate?
KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (spelled several different ways in Angleton's Church Committee testimony transcript)?
Soviet embassy "security guard" Ivan Obyedkov (spelled "Byetkov" in the above-mentioned transcript)?
KGB "active measures counterintelligence operations" and "strategic deception counterintelligence operations," in general?
Not much?
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3/mode/2up
LOL
PPPS Please don't run away, again, now ...
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Steve "M.",
Can you think of any reason for Azcue's describing the man who allegedly gave Sylvia Duran the passport-sized photos of Oswald (which look to me as though they were taken in the USSR when Oswald's hair and face were fuller and he apparently liked to wear his sweater vest) in such a way that perfectly described KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, whom we know was working under diplomatic cover at the Soviet embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache," and who was photographed by the CIA near said embassy one day after "Oswald's" October 1st "Kostikov" phone call (wearing what could very well be a dark blue Prince of Wales suit with reddish pinstripes / highlights)?
Unfortunately, the two CIA photos that were taken of him that day, although they do show his blond hair and his thin physique, do not do justice to his "very thin face" nor his blue eyes not his short (5' 7") stature nor his 35 years-of-age.
-- MWT ;)
PS What are the chances Oswald wore that sweater vest to or in Mexico City in late September? Was he expecting cool or cold weather there?
LOL
PPS What do you know about Guenter Schulz (Hoover's "Tumbleweed")?
Aleksei Kulak (Hoover's beloved "Fedora")?
Oleg Brykin at the U.N.?
Valiery Kostikov at the Soviet consulate?
KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov (spelled several different ways in Angleton's Church Committee testimony transcript)?
Soviet embassy "security guard" Ivan Obyedkov (spelled "Byetkov" in the above-mentioned transcript)?
KGB "active measures counterintelligence operations" and "strategic deception counterintelligence operations," in general?
Not much?
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3/mode/2up
LOL
PPPS Please don't run away, again, now ...
Mexico City has an elevation of over 7000 ft.
Historically, in September, average temp is 53 (low) to 74 ( high). Fahrenheit.
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Mexico City has an elevation of over 7000 ft.
Historically, in September, average temp is 53 (low) to 74 ( high). Fahrenheit.
Not exactly cold, then, huh?
Regardless, no matter how we look at it (i.e., whether the "Oswald" she dealt with on September 27 was wearing the sweater vest and tie depicted in the passport-sized photo, or the blue Prince of Wales suit which Azcue described in some detail), Sylvia Duran lied, I fear, when she described "Oswald" as "cheaply-dressed," whatever that means.
Why did she lie like that?
To do "damage control" on the Leonov-indicating stuff she'd already let slip out to the Mexican police back around December of 1963, and to her 1978 HSCA inquisitors?
And how could her description of what Oswald or "Oswald" was wearing be so different from Azcue's?
Is she suggesting that most of the men who visited her office at the Cuban consulate wore Armani suits, Bruno Magli shoes and Rolex watches, or something?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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https://www.wikihow.com/Forge-a-Signature
Easy-breezy- cheezie
lol
How did it end up on the guest book in the hotel?
Who did it?
Why bother?
Where was Oswald really during this time?
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lol
How did it end up on the guest book in the hotel?
Who did it?
Why bother?
Where was Oswald really during this time?
The signatures on the Cuban applications. The signature on the Mexican visa he acquired to visit Mexico. The signature on the letter he sent to the Soviet Embassy where he discussed the trip. The handwriting on the envelope. The handwriting on the draft note where he discussed the trip......
Whenever we ask how the conspirators did this or that, we get the "It's easy. They can do anything."
Then when we ask, "Why didn't they plant witnesses in Dealey Plaza to identify Oswald as the shooter?" or "Why didn't Marina say he hated JFK?" or "Why didn't Ruth Paine say she saw him with the rifle?" or "Why did the DPD let Oswald meet with the news media if they were afraid of him revealing things?" we get the dismissive "Those are strawman questions?"
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The signatures on the Cuban applications. The signature on the Mexican visa he acquired to visit Mexico. The signature on the letter he sent to the Soviet Embassy where he discussed the trip. The handwriting on the envelope. The handwriting on the draft note where he discussed the trip......
Whenever we ask how the conspirators did this or that, we get the "It's easy. They can do anything."
Then when we ask, "Why didn't they plant witnesses in Dealey Plaza to identify Oswald as the shooter?" or "Why didn't Marina say he hated JFK?" or "Why didn't Ruth Paine say she saw him with the rifle?" or "Why did the DPD let Oswald meet with the news media if they were afraid of him revealing things?" we get the dismissive "Those are strawman questions?"
Steve M. Galbraith,
Maybe because the KGB/DGI conspiracy to assassinate JFK (if there was one) was a lot deeper than you are capable of imagining?
The KGB probably had some pretty darn good forgers (and lots of samples of LHO's handwriting and printing), and Castro's DGI probably had some pretty darn good "connections" in Mexico City, don't you think?
(Fwiw, you do realize, don't you, that, as relayed to Dick Russell by Clare Edward Petty in The Man Who Knew Too Much, George DeMohrenschildt was probably a long-term KGB "illegal"?
And you know that Marina had probably been a KGB "honeytrapper" in Leningrad, right?
And ... gasp ... what are we to make of "Russophile" Ruth Paine ... ?
Regardless, whether or not Oswald was a KGB assassin or the KGB/DGI killed JFK, look at it this way:
Without all of the KGB-inspired and/or encouraged tinfoil hat conspiracy theories that arose out of The Kennedy Assassination (which were "complemented" by other KGB tinfoil hat theories like -- "The evil, evil, evil CIA developed the HIV virus to decimate Blacks!"), would we be saddled with fascist KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's useful idiot, Donald Trump, as our "president" today?
(I think not.)
-- MWT ;)
PS Oh, and by the way: Britain leaves the E.U. today.
Yet another reason for the great humanitarian, Vladimir Putin, and his Saint Petersburg Internet Research Agency trolls to be jumping for joy.
PPS You do realize, don't you, that "Lieutenant Colonel" Yuri Nosenko, the guy who said the KGB hadn't even interviewed or monitored Marine Corps radar operator Oswald in the USSR (much less interviewed him by ... gasp ... the "Wet Affairs and Sabotage" Department 13 of the First Chief Directorate!) was a false defector?
D'oh
For background on Nosenko (and mole Edward Ellis Smith -- and some never-uncovered person in CIA he probably helped KGB to recruit, and the never-uncovered mole: Army cipher clerk "Jack," and the KGB/GRU U.N. Headquarters triple-agents "Fedora" (who duped Hoover for fifteen years!), "Top Hat" (who duped Hoover and the CIA for "only" two years and, interestingly enough, was eventually arrested and executed by the KGB many years later in Moscow after having actually begun informing the CIA in Burma and in India), and Kitty Hawk (who arranged the KGB's kidnapping of true-defector "Shadrin" in Vienna and told the FBI and CIA that he had been sent to the U.S. to find and execute both (true) defector Golitsyn and (false) defector Nosenko (LOL), et al., ad nauseam, and how the "KGB" (which was founded around 1920) has been running circles around our intelligence agencies (and those of our allies) since Day One, read the following 2007 book (which you'll be happy to hear was written by a former CIA officer who did NOT believe the Ruskies had anything to do with the Kennedy assassination).
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
LOL
Oh! And this, too, from 2014!
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
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The signature on the Mexican visa he acquired to visit Mexico.
Could someone link that page/copy...this visa to visit Mexico?
Oswald applied for a passport [according to the official report] on June 24 1963. He received it [according to that report] the very next day.
1...How likely was that?---Next day State Dept service indeed--- 2...What ever happened to that passport? It was never discovered among his items.
3...It was [supposedly as all passports at the time] marked Not for travel to Cuba among other specified countries. So why in hell would he think he could go there? [Hypothetically that is] 4...Where would Oswald have obtained the money to travel [round trip] some 1400 miles [one way]?---Stay at the alleged hotel---where did he eat?---apply for all the presumed paperwork---believed to have taken in a bullfight---and still have some assets left for this hopeful travel [somehow to Cuba]? Did Oswald pack for world wide travel? How would he subside upon failure?
There have been those who say Oswald went to Mexico that following late September. There have been those who say he didn't.
I can only say that I doubt that he actually did but that someone who looked very much like him must have.
The Report says that Oswald [normally recluse and aloof] told the McFarlands [perfect strangers] that he was going to Cuba to meet Castro.
Mr McFarland stated that he identified Oswald from his picture in the paper.
Even the Report states that Oswald's activities in Mexico City were not known with certainty.
Only that Oswald stayed in room #18 ..that three guests who were on that same floor were searched out and only one was found who said he saw no one else staying on his floor. All I see there is a panoply of absolutely nothing.
Allegedly... Oswald showed some unnamed girls from Australia his passport--stamped with Russian customs stamps. How could that be when the passport was only three months old? Oh...did I ask---What ever happened to this passport?
Soon after the assassination of John F. Kennedy Scott contacted Luis Echeverria and asked his men to arrest Duran. He also told Diaz Ordaz that Duran was to be held incommunicado until she gave all details of her contacts with Lee Harvey Oswald. Scott then reported his actions to CIA headquarters. Soon afterwards, John M. Whitten, the CIA head of the Mexican desk, called Scott with orders from Tom Karamessines that Duran was not to be arrested. Win told them it was too late and that the Mexican government would keep the whole thing secret. Karamessines replied with a telegram that began: “Arrest of Sylvia Duran is extremely serious matter which could prejudice U.S. freedom of action on entire question of Cuban responsibility.”
Silvia Duran, her husband and five other people were arrested. Duran was “interrogated forcefully” (Duran was badly bruised during the interview). Luis Echeverria reported to Winston Scott that Duran had been “completely cooperative” and had made a detailed statement. This statement matched the story of the surveillance transcripts, with one exception. The tapes indicated that Duran made another call to the Soviet embassy on Saturday, 28th September. Duran then put an American on the line who spoke incomprehensible Russian. This suggests that the man could not have been Oswald who spoke the language well.
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
I have seen Oswald's signature enough times that I could sign it myself. With a little practice anybody could.
No one ever signs their name exactly the same every single time. Note how crappy the "Mexico City" signature is ::)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7fZXPZvIriI/VDqg970SEKI/AAAAAAAAUzw/Pi07Mnhou1Y/s1600/Oswald%2Bsignature%2Bcollage.jpg)
(https://merdist.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Oswalds-collage6.png)
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This Bagley fellow, agitated, crafty crafter of opinions?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=199814&relPageId=5
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Mr Freeman is correct.
The "Australian girls", commenting on Oswald"s passport and it's "Russian" stamps, are incorrect.
If you look closely at Oswalds's passport application, regarding his old passport, there is a box checked, indicating the applicant is turning in his old passport,...the one showing his travels out of The Soviet Union.
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Steve M. Galbraith,
Maybe because the KGB/DGI conspiracy to assassinate JFK (if there was one) was a lot deeper than you are capable of imagining?
The KGB probably had some pretty darn good forgers (and lots of samples of LHO's handwriting and printing), and Castro's DGI probably had some pretty darn good "connections" in Mexico City, don't you think?
(Fwiw, you do realize, don't you, that, as relayed to Dick Russell by Clare Edward Petty in The Man Who Knew Too Much, George DeMohrenschildt was probably a long-term KGB "illegal"?
And you know that Marina had probably been a KGB "honeytrapper" in Leningrad, right?
And ... gasp ... what are we to make of "Russophile" Ruth Paine ... ?
Regardless, whether or not Oswald was a KGB assassin or the KGB/DGI killed JFK, look at it this way:
Without all of the KGB-inspired and/or encouraged tinfoil hat conspiracy theories that arose out of The Kennedy Assassination (which were "complemented" by other KGB tinfoil hat theories like -- "The evil, evil, evil CIA developed the HIV virus to decimate Blacks!"), would we be saddled with fascist KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's useful idiot, Donald Trump, as our "president" today?
(I think not.)
-- MWT ;)
PS Oh, and by the way: Britain leaves the E.U. today.
Yet another reason for the great humanitarian, Vladimir Putin, and his Saint Petersburg Internet Research Agency trolls to be jumping for joy.
PPS You do realize, don't you, that "Lieutenant Colonel" Yuri Nosenko, the guy who said the KGB hadn't even interviewed or monitored Marine Corps radar operator Oswald in the USSR (much less interviewed him by ... gasp ... the "Wet Affairs and Sabotage" Department 13 of the First Chief Directorate!) was a false defector?
D'oh
For background on Nosenko (and mole Edward Ellis Smith -- and some never-uncovered person in CIA he probably helped KGB to recruit, and the never-uncovered mole: Army cipher clerk "Jack," and the KGB/GRU U.N. Headquarters triple-agents "Fedora" (who duped Hoover for fifteen years!), "Top Hat" (who duped Hoover and the CIA for "only" two years and, interestingly enough, was eventually arrested and executed by the KGB many years later in Moscow after having actually begun informing the CIA in Burma and in India), and Kitty Hawk (who arranged the KGB's kidnapping of true-defector "Shadrin" in Vienna and told the FBI and CIA that he had been sent to the U.S. to find and execute both (true) defector Golitsyn and (false) defector Nosenko (LOL), et al., ad nauseam, and how the "KGB" (which was founded around 1920) has been running circles around our intelligence agencies (and those of our allies) since Day One, read the following 2007 book (which you'll be happy to hear was written by a former CIA officer who did NOT believe the Ruskies had anything to do with the Kennedy assassination).
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
LOL
Oh! And this, too, from 2014!
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
Imaginary scenarios is not evidence of one. Saying "A" or "B" could have happened is not evidence of "A" or "B" happening.
As I said above, if one wants to dismiss the evidence - physical, eyewitness and circumstantial - that Oswald went to Mexico City then fine, go for it. But if you take this approach, if that's your answer to the evidence, then your claim that he didn't go is not falsifiable. It's a statement that cannot be refuted in any way.
What evidence would you accept that he went to Mexico City? There isn't any. Whatever is produced will be dismissed as faked. Marina lied. Ruth lied. The draft note is faked. The letter to the Soviet Embassy is faked. The signatures are faked. The eyewitnesses lied or are wrong. Duran lied. Mirabal lied. The women on the bus lied.
All I can do is present the evidence that I see that shows he went. I cannot force people to accept it. You say the Cubans were involved in this fake operation; and then you cite the consul, Azcue, who said it wasn't Oswald. Does that make a lick of sense?
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Could someone link that page/copy...this visa to visit Mexico?
Oswald applied for a passport [according to the official report] on June 24 1963. He received it [according to that report] the very next day.
1...How likely was that?---Next day State Dept service indeed--- 2...What ever happened to that passport? It was never discovered among his items.
….
Due to Oswald's prior record of international travel and his marriage to a USSR citizen, the details of Oswald's passport application were telexed to a desk at Dept. of State that checked his file for holds, found none,
and telexed back approval to NOLA to issue a passport. The Nola passport agency office issued the passport the same day it received approval, June 25.
There is no record of when Oswald received the passport and it seems it was a slow day at the desk at State and at the NOLA agency office. Sinister, suspicious? Not so much...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=300
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Mr Freeman is correct.
The "Australian girls", commenting on Oswald"s passport and it's "Russian" stamps, are incorrect.
If you look closely at Oswalds's passport application, regarding his old passport, there is a box checked, indicating the applicant is turning in his old passport,...the one showing his travels out of The Soviet Union.
Show us the passport application. I recently renewed my passport and still have the old one. In fact, they recommended keeping the old passport (just in case something happened to the new one and it got lost in the mail or something). Maybe the process was different in 1963, but that was my recent experience...
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Show us the passport application. I recently renewed my passport and still have the old one. In fact, they recommended keeping the old passport (just in case something happened to the new one and it got lost in the mail or something). Maybe the process was different in 1963, but that was my recent experience...
When my passport expired in the 1980s, I submitted the expired one with the application. It was returned to me by mail. "Expired" was punched onto the cover.
Same as current policy....
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/passport-help/faqs.html
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Will I receive my new passport and my documents back in one envelope?
Passport Book Only: You may receive your newly-issued passport and your citizenship documents (e.g. previous passport, birth certificate) separately. Please contact the National Passport Information Center (NPIC) if you do not receive a second mailing within 10 business days of receiving the first. We can send your passport book using a 1-2 day delivery service.
Passport Card Only: You may receive your newly-issued passport card and your citizenship documents (e.g. previous passport, birth certificate) separately. Please contact NPIC if you do not receive a second mailing within 10 business days of receiving the first. We only send the passport card via First Class Mail. We do not send cards using 1-2 day delivery services.
Passport Book and Card: You may receive three separate mailings; one with your citizenship documents (e.g. previous passport, birth certificate), one with your newly-issued passport book, and one with your newly-issued passport card. Please contact NPIC if you do not receive the second or third mailing within 10 business days of the previous mailing.
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When my passport expired in the 1980s, I submitted the expired one with the application. It was returned to me by mail. "Expired" was punched onto the cover.
Same as current policy....
Yes, my memory was a little off. Your post refreshed it. They sent them back separately. Thanks for the correction. The point is that LHO probably did show his old passport on the bus to Mexico City. Even if he turned it in with his application, he probably would have received it back.
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Oswald's 1959 passport - 22 pages - can be viewed here:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/
In it you can see Soviet stamps, German stamps et cetera. And some of them from 1959 when he first arrived in Moscow. And others from 1962 when he left.
Questions: If he turned this in when he left the USSR, then why does it have a German stamp dated in 1962 when he was leaving? If he left it behind then it shouldn't have a German exit stamp. It sure appears to me that he kept it. If he was given a new one then why does this have the older, 1959 stamps on it? Pretty confusing.
Is this what he showed the Australian women?
This is from page #7: (http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ae9a/un0r4v0le0m7hnxzg.jpg)
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Oswald's 1959 passport - 22 pages - can be viewed here:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/
In it you can see Soviet stamps, German stamps et cetera. And some of them from 1959 when he first arrived in Moscow. And others from 1962 when he left.
Question: If he turned this in when he left the USSR, then why does it have a German stamp dated in 1962 when he was leaving? If he left it behind then it shouldn't have a German exit stamp. It sure appears to me that he kept it. Is this what he showed the Australian women?
This is from page #7: (http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/ae9a/un0r4v0le0m7hnxzg.jpg)
If I remember correctly, LHO turned it in at the US Embassy in Moscow shortly after he arrived there. And requested it back when he decided he wanted to leave to go back to the USA. They gave it back to him (after some discussions). He needed it to be able to travel back to the US. In fact, I think that they specified that that was ALL it could be used for. And I am guessing that might be why he needed to renew it.
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Charles: Correct, thanks for jumpstarting my memory. And I don't believe the Soviets confiscated it later and issued him a new one. If so then where did this come from?
As you can see if you go through it, it has 1959 stamps on it when he first arrived. And then it has 1962 stamps/dates - one German - when he left. So it seems logical to conclude that he didn't turn in his older 1959 passport and then was given a new one by the Soviets when he left. It has both 1959 and 1962 dates. This is clearly the passport he had when he arrived. And given back when he left.
If this is the passport then as you can see (page #7) there are Soviet "marks" on it. If he had this then it seems to me that it is probably (likely? possibly?) the passport that he showed the Australian women.
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Charles: Correct, thanks for jumpstarting my memory. As you can see if you go through it, it has 1959 stamps on it when he first arrived. And then it has 1962 stamps/dates - one German - when he left. So it seems logical to conclude that he didn't turn in his older 1959 passport. It has both 1959 and 1962 dates.
If this is the passport then as you can see (page #7) there are Soviet "marks" on it. If he had this then it seems to me that it is probably (likely? possibly?) the passport that he showed the Australian women.
I agree. The question that I was originally responding to was (I think) regarding when he applied for a new passport to replace the one he had in Russia (so he could travel to Mexico City). Someone, suggested that he checked a box on the application that indicated he turned in his old passport. And therefore wouldn’t have had it with him on the bus to Mexico City. It appears to me that he would have received it back with his new passport. And therefore could have had it with him to show others.
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I agree. The question that I was originally responding to was (I think) regarding when he applied for a new passport to replace the one he had in Russia (so he could travel to Mexico City). Someone, suggested that he checked a box on the application that indicated he turned in his old passport. And therefore wouldn’t have had it with him on the bus to Mexico City. It appears to me that he would have received it back with his new passport. And therefore could have had it with him to show others.
No US passport was required of a US citizen traveling to Mexico or Canada, and back, until 2007.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/business/12memo.html
By Joe Sharkey
June 12, 2007
PASSPORT PANDEMONIUM The confusion and delays in passport processing are a warning to plan far ahead to renew or obtain a passport, travel industry trade groups say. Since Jan 23, United States citizens as well as those from Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean have been required for the first time to present a valid passport when entering the United States by air. A rush for passports has created long processing delays, partly because of confusion among some travelers, who mistakenly thought they needed a passport to return to the United States from Canada or Mexico by car. That requirement will not take effect until next year. Maura Harty, the assistant secretary of state for consular affairs, said that the demand for passports was “over and beyond even the enormous demand we had expected,” leading to the delays. In response, the State Department adjusted the rules so that through Sept. 30, those who can show proof they have applied for a passport, even if they have not received it, are exempt. The required documents are a government-issued photo ID and a printout showing that they have applied for a passport, which can be downloaded from travel.state.gov.passport.
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No US passport was required of a US citizen traveling to Mexico or Canada, and back, until 2007.
Thanks, I have been to both countries several times over the years and didn’t need a passport until recently. However, I think LHO reportedly had a tourist visa that limited his stay in Mexico to several days. I am guessing that either he thought he needed it to travel freely to Mexico City, or he wanted the passport to be able to go to Cuba.
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I agree. The question that I was originally responding to was (I think) regarding when he applied for a new passport to replace the one he had in Russia (so he could travel to Mexico City). Someone, suggested that he checked a box on the application that indicated he turned in his old passport. And therefore wouldn’t have had it with him on the bus to Mexico City. It appears to me that he would have received it back with his new passport. And therefore could have had it with him to show others.
It would have been stamped void, or cancelled, if he received it afterwards. And, he had a new, valid passport.
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It would have been stamped void, or cancelled, if he received it afterwards. And, he had a new, valid passport.
What are the semi-circular cut outs along the bottom edge of the passport book? Could that possibly be how one was indicated to be canceled? The old passport book that I received back after renewal doesn’t have any indication of cancellation other than the expiration date.
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This Bagley fellow, agitated, crafty crafter of opinions?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=199814&relPageId=5
Scully,
Are you suggesting that Tennent H. Bagley, whom John Newman points out was on the fast track to becoming DCI until false-defector Nosenko started rocking CIA's boat two months after the assassination, was "agitated" when he conveyed the above information to Sam Papich right after the assassination?
That he was a "crafty crafter of (CIA/FBI) opinions"?
You sound as though brainwashed-by-Mangold-and-Wise, Kisevalter-loving Jefferson Morley has gotten to you.
Aren't you describing your "class warfare"-oriented, propagandistic self, here, Scully (but your audience, of course, is comprised of people who are already predisposed to hating the evil, evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil, evil FBI, the evil, evil, evil NSA, etc)?
Do you know anything about the former East German intelligence operative mentioned in the memo, Gurnter Schulz, aka FBI's "Tumbleweed"?
You do realize, don't you, that the NKVD got several of their agents into the OSS and the CIA (and the FBI, evidently) by letting them be captured by the Germans during WW II, and (unsuccessfully) "turned" by, or otherwise assimilated into, the easily-duped Gehlen Organization?
Alexandr "Sasha" Karpatzky (aka Igor Orlov) comes to mind. Factoid: I think Bagley's thwarting / counterproductive "helper" in interviewing Nosenko in Geneva in June 1962 and in January 1964, George Kisevalter, was Golitsy's mole,"Sasha," instead.
Rhetorical question: What led the FBI and CIA to tentatively conclude that Kostikov was "Department 13," as is mentioned in the memo?
Answer: The KGB triple-agent who duped Hoover for fifteen years, Aleksey Kulak (aka "Fedora" -- look him up) told the FBI that "Tumbleweed's KGB handler in the U.S., Igor Brykin at the U.N., was ... gasp ... "Department 13, and "Tumbleweed," himself, told the FBI that he and Brykin had met with Kostikov in Mexico City to get instructions for a sabotage mission in the U.S.!
In other words, Hoover was fooled (yet again) by a KGB triple-agent in the FBI ("Fedora"), and Hoover, in turn, misled CIA into believing that a (poor Russian-speaking / poor English-speaking) "Oswald" impostor had been told on October 1, 1963 (over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line) that he ("Oswald") had met with made-radioactive-by-now "Kostikov" on Saturday, September 28.
D'oh
-- MWT ;)
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What are the semi-circular cut outs along the bottom edge of the passport book? Could that possibly be how one was indicated to be canceled? The old passport book that I received back after renewal doesn’t have any indication of cancellation other than the expiration date.
WC Vol. 18 CE946
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What are the semi-circular cut outs along the bottom edge of the passport book? Could that possibly be how one was indicated to be canceled? The old passport book that I received back after renewal doesn’t have any indication of cancellation other than the expiration date.
Probably what you are seeing there is a hand holding down the pages being copied.
So we don't go too far off topic... I will start a new 'Oswald's passport' thread.
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Thanks, I have been to both countries several times over the years and didn’t need a passport until recently. However, I think LHO reportedly had a tourist visa that limited his stay in Mexico to several days. I am guessing that either he thought he needed it to travel freely to Mexico City, or he wanted the passport to be able to go to Cuba.
Yep, I read that too. But Oswald got/applied for a Mexican visa that limited how long he could stay.
That's here with the entrance and exit dates stamped on it: (https://ep01.epimg.net/internacional/imagenes/2017/10/26/estados_unidos/1508970024_281131_1508972040_sumario_normal.jpg)
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It would have been stamped void, or cancelled, if he received it afterwards. And, he had a new, valid passport.
It apparently was (if this is the same passport). This below is page #1. Why wouldn't he keep the old passport? It had stamps of his various visits to Europe. He could keep it as a memento or to show to others. Which is what two witnesses said he did.
Photos of the rest of the pages, several also having "canceled" on them, are here: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/75bf/spl77ctwfott6fqzg.jpg)
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It apparently was (if this is the same passport). This below is page #1. Why wouldn't he keep the old passport? It had stamps of his various visits to Europe. He could keep it as a memento or to show to others. Which is what two witnesses said he did.
Photos of the rest of the pages, several also having "canceled" on them, are here: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/1/
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/75bf/spl77ctwfott6fqzg.jpg)
Thanks.
Yes, Oswald could have received old passport. Could have shown to Australian women.
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Thanks.
Yes, Oswald could have received old passport. Could have shown to Australian women.
Could have shown
But why?...unless it was staged as an elaborate put on to remember him by. [**Patricia Winston and Pam Mumford were the ladies]
Why claim to be from Fort Worth? Why not from Dallas or New Orleans?G. ROBERT BLAKEY, Chief Counsel, House Assassinations Committee: The suspicion was that Oswald didn't make it at all, that there was an impostor attempting to frame him in Mexico City. Had that been established, it would indicate a sophisticated effort to frame Oswald, which would immediately draw attention to American intelligence.
RICHARD HELMS, Former Director CIA: It's my recollection that at the time of Oswald's presence in Mexico City, there was something wrong with some of the cameras we were using and we were trying to fix it. But the fact remains that there are no photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald taken while he was in Mexico City at that time, and I can't explain 100 percent why not.
Video** https://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/items@:39924
Why did the traveler recommend the Hotel Cuba where he would not stay?
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See page 7.... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10196-100270001.pdf
Released document on Mexico... https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP10M00666R000503450002-3.pdf
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Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:
1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk, wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough." Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.
It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.
2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.
3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.
4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.
To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.
5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:
LBJ: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
Hoover: No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.
6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.
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Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:
1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk, wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough." Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.
It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.
2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.
3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.
4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.
To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.
5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:
LBJ: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
Hoover: No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.
6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.
Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.
LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:
Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page)
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During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
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Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.
LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:
Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page)
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During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Yes, that's what I understand too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa not a regular visa: transit. He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them. But he wanted to visit Cuba before returning and wanted a transit visa. Marina testified that he told her that he was going to go to Cuba and that she should go to the USSR. He then would (somehow) get them to come to Cuban once he was settled there.
When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.
As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.
And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
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When did Silvia Duran deny the person was Oswald? Not once to my knowledge. Certainly not in her testimony. She testified that when she saw Oswald's picture in the newspaper the next day after the assassination, she told her husband this:
CORNWELL - Okay. Did you have any other discussion that you can recall with him [i.e., her husband] about it? based on that news report? About your contact?
TIRADO/DURAN - With my husband?
CORNWELL - Yes.
TIRADO/DURAN - I only told him, I think this man came to the Embassy.
CORNWELL - Then, the next morning you saw a newspaper.
TIRADO/DURAN - Yes.
CORNWELL - Were you sure at that time that that was the man?
TIRADO/DURAN - Yes.
Later:
TIRADO/DURAN - I show the paper to Horatio [her husband] and told him this is the man that went to the Embassy and I went to the Consulate and I look in the Archivos and I saw the application, I saw that it was the man and I went to the Embassy and I talked to the Ambassador and I told him that this...
Yes, her description of Oswald is off - she believed he was older, for example. But she has never, to my knowledge, denied that the person was Oswald. If someone has evidence she has, please provide it.
And Alfredo Mirabal, who was also in the consulate at the time, testified that the man was Oswald.
Duran's full testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm
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Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30?
He could take a freakin' bus for a few bucks
In 2020 dollars, $30/1963 is $257
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He could take a freakin'n bus for a few bucks
In 2020 dollars, $30 is $257
Marina testified that he told he he had saved some money from his previous checks (it seems that CIA paycheck he was earning never showed up).
The hotel he stayed at - Hotel del Comercio - reportedly cost $1.28 a day. Sounds like just a great place to stay. Employees at the hotel - Corrected/not true. But a waiter at the nearby restaurant where he ate meals (they cost 40 to 48 cents) said the man was Oswald. And I guess the exchange rate for American dollars was very good.
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Yes, that's what I understand it too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.
By his own admission...Harry Holmes was perched up over in the Terminal Annex Bldg watching the assassination with his binoculars. Weird huh?
Tuesday, 17 December 2019 05:17
Oswald's Last Letter: The Scorching Hot Potato
Written by Paul Bleau
Paul Bleau reveals the scorching hot potato that is Oswald's last letter to the Soviet Embassy and how the Warren Commission and HSCA attempted to sweep it under the rug.
In JFK: the Cuba Files, a thorough analysis of five bizarre letters, that were written before the assassination in order to position Oswald as a Castro asset, is presented. It is difficult to sidestep them the way the FBI did. The FBI argued that they were all typed from the same typewriter, yet supposedly sent by different people. Which indicated to them that it was a hoax, perhaps perpetrated by Cubans wanting to encourage a U.S. invasion.
It incriminates Oswald in the following passage: “I am informing you that the matter you talked to me about the last time that I was in Mexico would be a perfect plan and would weaken the politics of that braggart Kennedy, although much discretion is needed because you know that there are counter-revolutionaries over there who are working for the CIA.”
Cuba is linked to the assassination in all of the letters. In two of them, an alleged Cuban agent is clearly implicated in having planned the crime. However, the content of the letters, written before the assassination, suggested that the authors were either “a person linked to Oswald or involved in the conspiracy to execute the crime.”
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-last-letter-the-scorching-hot-potato
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Marina testified that he told he he had saved some money from his previous checks (it seems that CIA paycheck he was earning never showed up).
The hotel he stayed at - Hotel del Comercio - reportedly cost $1.28 a day. Sounds like just a great place to stay. Employees at the hotel and the nearby restaurant where he ate meals (they cost 40 to 48 cents) also said the man was Oswald. And I guess the exchange rate for American dollars was very good.
The bus ticket from Nuevo Laredo at the Texas-Mexico border to Mexico City cost LHO 71.40 pesos ($5.71). The WC concluded that LHO began the month of September with $183.21 cash in hand. He skipped paying his rent and utilities bills that month.
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The bus ticket from Nuevo Laredo at the Texas-Mexico border to Mexico City cost LHO 71.40 pesos ($5.71). The WC concluded that LHO began the month of September with $183.21 cash in hand. He skipped paying his rent and utilities bills that month.
And Ruth Paine testified that he never gave her any money for her help. No gas money, food nothing.
The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.
Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.
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And Ruth Paine testified that he never gave her any money for her help. No gas money, food nothing.
The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.
Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.
It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover.
If Lee was being watched by the communists which is very probable.... What would they have concluded if he started living an extravagant life style on his return from the USSR? His public image was that of an outcast in the U.S. So if he had suddenly started living "high on the hog" the spies would have known that he was not what he pretended to be when he "defected" to Russia.
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And Ruth Paine testified that he never gave her any money for her help. No gas money, food nothing.
The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.
Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.
The WC calculated that LHO left New Orleans with about $215, and he had approximately $130 when he arrived in Dallas. The trip, including transportation, lodging, food, and miscellaneous expenses, had cost him a total of $85.
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The WC calculated that LHO left New Orleans with about $215, and he had approximately $130 when he arrived in Dallas. The trip, including transportation, lodging, food, and miscellaneous expenses, had cost him a total of $85.
So what did he do with the missing $85? If it wasn't spent on the Mexico City trip then where did he spend it?
He spent that summer in NO agitating/protesting on behalf of Castro. He's saving his money. Why? Marina explained why. His subsequent actions explain why.
Duran testified that he showed her his FPCC card and told her about his efforts on behalf of Castro. In effect, proving his "revolutionary" credentials in an attempt to persuade the Cubans to let him in (and if they did decide to let this supposed impostor in then what was the purpose of impersonating him? What does this impostor do next? Go and do what? Refuse to go? What is the end game here?)
The money, his activity on behalf of Castro, his long time adoration for Castro, he tells Marina about the plan (she goes to the USSR; he goes to Cuba; then he sends for her), eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence...it's a pretty long list. Yes, there are "gaps" - such as the account by Azcue - but if you weigh the evidence he went versus the evidence it wasn't him then it seems to me you have to conclude he did go.
Now the question is: Was he impersonated on any of the phone calls once he was there? But that's another question for another post/thread.
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So what did he do with the missing $85? If it wasn't spent on the Mexico City trip then where did he spend it?
He spent that summer in NO agitating/protesting on behalf of Castro. He's saving his money. Why? Marina explained why. His subsequent actions explain why.
Duran testified that he showed her his FPCC card and told her about his efforts on behalf of Castro. In effect, proving his "revolutionary" credentials in an attempt to persuade the Cubans to let him in (and if they did decide to let this supposed impostor in then what was the purpose of impersonating him? What does this impostor do next? Go and do what? Refuse to go? What is the end game here?)
The money, his activity on behalf of Castro, his long time adoration for Castro, he tells Marina about the plan (she goes to the USSR; he goes to Cuba; then he sends for her), eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence...it's a pretty long list. Yes, there are "gaps" - such as the account by Azcue - but if you weigh the evidence he went versus the evidence it wasn't him then it seems to me you have to conclude he did go.
Now the question is: Was he impersonated on any of the phone calls once he was there? But that's another question for another post/thread.
Galbraith,
Why did Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue (especially Azcue) both describe the "Oswald" at the Cuban consulate -- the man who had given Duran the taken-in-the-USSR passport-sized photos -- in such a way that perfectly described the physically distinctive (short, skinny, blond hair, blue eyes, 35 years old, very thin-faced) KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, mentor to Raul Castro and Che Guevara and "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy?
-- MWT ;)
PS And, as Peter Dale Scott points out at the end of John Newman's two-part March 18, 2018 YouTube "Spy Wars" presentation, there's a scrap of paper in CIA files indicating that the September 28 and October 1 "Oswald" spoke bad English and bad Russian over the phone.
My theory: The KGB impersonator (Leonov?) spoke bad English naturally, and intentionally spoke bad Russian because he didn't realize how fluent Oswald was in that language.
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Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.
LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:
Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page)
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During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans
Charles,
Thanks for posting Oswald's notes he made in preparation for the Mexico trip - but he overdid it. Silvia Duran became suspicious when he presented his communist, pro revolutionary Cuba credentials as can be seen here when she was being questioned by an investigator for the HSCA:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954&search=silvia_duran#relPageId=39&tab=page
I never heard of the story that he planned to stay in Cuba while shipping Marina back to the USSR - did she know about it? What about the children? Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Well, he could have omitted his visits to the Cuban and Soviet diplomatic compounds and admit having travelled to Mexico City as a tourist or something. He couldn't have known that the FBI, via the CIA, had already learned of his endeavors regarding the visa. Both agencies had enough information that would have warranted close surveillance, but that never happened which is in light of the tragic consequences a severe error of judgement.
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Charles,
Thanks for posting Oswald's notes he made in preparation for the Mexico trip - but he overdid it. Silvia Duran became suspicious when he presented his communist, pro revolutionary Cuba credentials as can be seen here when she was being questioned by an investigator for the HSCA:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954&search=silvia_duran#relPageId=39&tab=page
I never heard of the story that he planned to stay in Cuba while shipping Marina back to the USSR - did she know about it? What about the children? Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?
Well, he could have omitted his visits to the Cuban and Soviet diplomatic compounds and admit having travelled to Mexico City as a tourist or something. He couldn't have known that the FBI, via the CIA, had already learned of his endeavors regarding the visa. Both agencies had enough information that would have warranted close surveillance, but that never happened which is in light of the tragic consequences a severe error of judgement.
Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=49&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=49&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=50&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=50&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=51&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=51&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=52&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=52&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=53&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=53&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=54&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=54&tab=page)
Please take notice that in LHO's letter (attached to Marina's letter) he requests that his visa be considered separately. Marina was unaware of the request for the separate visa until well after the assassination. LHO had told Marina he wanted to go back to Russia with her and the kid(s). But he had no such intentions as the resume he prepared for the Cubans and the separate letter show.
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The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.
Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.
What about the claim by Mr Alba owner of the garage next to the Reilly Co where Oswald worked?
Alba gave an interview in the '70s stating that he saw Oswald regularly accepting white envelopes from G-men in what he knew to be FBI company cars as they entered or exited his garage. Alba recalled watching Oswald approach an FBI car outside the garage and receive a white envelope that was handed to him through a cracked window before concealing it under his shirt. Alba later said Oswald "met the car again a couple of days later and talked briefly with the driver," whom, as detailed in "JFK and the Unspeakable..." Alba knew as an "FBI agent visiting New Orleans from Washington." He further stated that he did not know the content of the envelopes. He explained to his interviewer that he had refused previous interviews or photos, even for money, because he was worried about the safety of his family. He refused to be filmed for the interview.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2365.msg75368.html#msg75368
There seems to be a lot of unbelievable stuff.
Oswald might have had 2 or 3 grand when he left New Orleans but still... that does not prove he went to Mexico.
Employees at the hotel and the nearby restaurant where he ate meals also said the man was Oswald.
Can testimony on that be linked? These statements are repeated constantly without obvious support.
Marina explained why.
The Commission guys could always count on Marina to state the desired results but it has long gone overboard with the incredible.
It still seems that Sylvia Odio got a better look at Oswald than anyone and yet her SWORN testimony remains ignored.
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Too much "perhaps" there. Where exactly is it that Oswald 'gets visibly upset' with this question?
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Yes, that's what I understand too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa not a regular visa: transit. He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them. But he wanted to visit Cuba before returning and wanted a transit visa. Marina testified that he told her that he was going to go to Cuba and that she should go to the USSR. He then would (somehow) get them to come to Cuban once he was settled there.
When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.
As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.
And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
-Steve-
He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them.
So HE DID want to return to the USSR? Don't you see that this course of action on the part of Oswald is not logical nor rational? Why would Marina want to return? Oswald spent 18 months in desperate efforts to get back to the USA, and proclaims his distaste for the Soviet system, yet a little over a year later he wants to return? That does make no sense at all to me.
Oswald's IQ was about 118, the fact that his writings are a pain to read is because he was dyslectic. Yet this reasonable intelligent man, in many instances, always takes the least rational, logical decisions. Or so we are told. This leads me to believe that Lee was either a) deranged and detached from reality; or b) ordered or manipulated in some way by others to engage in activities that are an affront to logic and reason. Case in point: he complains to people about being harassed by the FBI, and what does he do? Does he lay low and keep a low profile? Of course not. He gets into this weird and partially fake FPCC stuff, picks a fight with anti-Castro Cubans, the police bust his ass in jail and then he requests to speak to the FBI! That is not logical.
When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.
Another example of irrational behavior on Oswald's part. He needs the Soviet visa to get the Cuban visa in order to execute his plan. He doesn't even bother to fill out the damn form? What's the point in going through all this trouble to get to Mexico City and then fail to execute the necessary steps in order to complete his 'mission'?
As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.
I do not know. Perhaps Hosty wasn't ín' on it? Speculation on my part, which leads nowhere.
I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.
I agree. Oswald admitted that he had visited Mexico - Tijuana I think - while in the Marine Corps and with a fellow Marine. Can't remember the name of Lee's companion, I think it was a Spanish sounding name.
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(https://kennedysandking.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/fig32.gif)
One thing that keeps nagging me. Established earlier...A passport [let alone a visa] was not required to visit Mexico back then.
Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba.
It also seems too apparent that the commission staff was not charged with explaining Oswald in Mexico so much as just making the incident go away.
The Odio affair threw a stink into all of that. It simply reeked of conspiracy....so she was conveniently "mistaken".
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(https://kennedysandking.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/fig32.gif)
One thing that keeps nagging me. Established earlier...A passport [let alone a visa] was not required to visit Mexico back then.
Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba.
It also seems too apparent that the commission staff was not charged with explaining Oswald in Mexico so much as just making the incident go away.
The Odio affair threw a stink into all of that. It simply reeked of conspiracy....so she was conveniently "mistaken".
Were they all mistaken? All the people who met him.
Its a massive effort to go to - multiple fake witnesses, Australian girls on buses, multiple fake signatures - Cubans and Russians involved, all that risk, for no benefit to any conspiracy.
It makes no sense.
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(https://kennedysandking.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/fig32.gif)
One thing that keeps nagging me. Established earlier...A passport [let alone a visa] was not required to visit Mexico back then.
Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba.
It also seems too apparent that the commission staff was not charged with explaining Oswald in Mexico so much as just making the incident go away.
The Odio affair threw a stink into all of that. It simply reeked of conspiracy....so she was conveniently "mistaken".
That appears to be a "tourist card" that is necessary to fill out to gain entry to Mexico (i.e. an immigration form). It is not officially a "visa." They were and still are required to travel to Mexico. There is a reference to it in a March 25, 1964 memo (note the comma after Lee that appears on the form):
"The comma following Oswald's first name and the fact that he was posing as a photographer probably derived from the fact that this comma somehow slipped into his name when his tourist card was made out and that the tourist card also listed him as a photographer."
Obviously Oswald wanted the passport to travel to Cuba. It had nothing to do with Mexico.
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Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=49&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=49&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=50&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=50&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=51&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=51&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=52&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=52&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=53&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=53&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=54&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=54&tab=page)
Please take notice that in LHO's letter (attached to Marina's letter) he requests that his visa be considered separately. Marina was unaware of the request for the separate visa until well after the assassination. LHO had told Marina he wanted to go back to Russia with her and the kid(s). But he had no such intentions as the resume he prepared for the Cubans and the separate letter show.
Good work.
Marina explained their plans - or more accurately, his plans for her - in her testimonies (WC/HSCA). This is also recounted in more detail in the Priscilla McMillan book "Marina and Lee".
Briefly (again): He wanted her and the baby to return to the USSR, he would go to Cuba, and then he would (somehow) get her and the baby to join him in Cuba. He was determined to join the "revolution" and help "Fidel" (Marina said he used to sing songs to Castro). Recall that she said he suggested to her that they hijack a plane and have it flown to Cuba? Although she also said she thought he was just testing her loyalty and that it wasn't a serious suggestion.
Marina in her HSCA testimony said this: "Well, I knew for a long time that Fidel Castro was his hero. He was a great admirer of him, so, he was in some kind of revolutionary mood at that period of time. He thought that maybe he would be, I mean, he would be happy to work for Fidel Castro causes or something like that."
And this:
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - Did he want to go to live in Cuba?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I assume then he did.
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - What specifically did he say?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, he said that he go over there first and then he will send for me.
Mr. McDONALD - Go where first?
Mrs. PORTER - To Cuba.
This plan was also why, I believe, he was protesting on behalf of Castro and Cuba. He was creating a pro-revolution "resume" or history to show the Cubans. Which according to Duran, he did.
Marina said that when she said goodbye to Oswald as she was headed back to Texas with Ruth Paine and he was headed to Mexico City that she had tears in her eyes. He did too. She said she was sure it would be the last time she saw him.
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Galbraith,
Why did Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue (especially Azcue) both describe the "Oswald" at the Cuban consulate -- the man who had given Duran the taken-in-the-USSR passport-sized photos -- in such a way that perfectly described the physically distinctive (short, skinny, blond hair, blue eyes, 35 years old, very thin-faced) KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, mentor to Raul Castro and Che Guevara and "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy?
-- MWT ;)
PS And, as Peter Dale Scott points out at the end of John Newman's two-part March 18, 2018 YouTube "Spy Wars" presentation, there's a scrap of paper in CIA files indicating that the September 28 and October 1 "Oswald" spoke bad English and bad Russian over the phone.
My theory: The KGB impersonator (Leonov?) spoke bad English naturally, and intentionally spoke bad Russian because he didn't realize how fluent Oswald was in that language.
As I've said numerous times, if one wants to believe that all of this evidence - the eyewitness accounts, the physical evidence, the circumstantial evidence - is faked or phony then there's nothing further to discuss.
Whatever evidence is presented that Oswald went to Mexico City can be summarily dismissed as being inauthentic. So where is there to go?
You believe that the Cubans worked with the Soviets on this operation. Yet you believe that Azcue and Duran exposed it by revealing it wasn't Oswald. That makes no sense whatsoever. You say we can't believe the "communists" like Nechiporenko and Kostikov. But then believe the "communists" Azcue and Duran. That's illogical.
And for the tenth or twentieth time: Duran said that the man she met was Oswald. Her description is off but she said and has said repeatedly that the man was Lee Oswald. She testified to this. And has stated it in numerous interviews.
The CIA translators - Boris and Anne Tarasoff - who heard the phone calls from a person identifying himself as Oswald said the person spoken broken Russian. Neither said the person spoke broken English. They head the calls. That is what they testified to. Peter Dale Scott is a radical leftist who thinks the CIA killed JFK (and is the cause of every ill in the world). I find it remarkable that you use as a source someone you think has an anti-CIA bias and should be dismissed.
One can, as I said, look at the totality of evidence and conclude it was Oswald or one can look at the totality of evidence and conclude it was all part of some covert plan to fake the visit. It's a free choice.
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And for the tenth or twentieth time: Duran said that the man she met was Oswald. Her description is off but she said and has said repeatedly that the man was Lee Oswald. She testified to this. And has stated it in numerous interviews.
And for as many times..this was stated after the Mexican Federal goons beat the crap out of her and accused her of a probable affair with the accused assassin.
The tapes indicated that Duran made another call to the Soviet embassy on Saturday, 28th September. Duran then put an American on the line who spoke incomprehensible Russian.
A week after the assassination Elena Garro reported that she had seen Oswald at a party held by people from the Cuban consulate in September 1963. The following week, June Cobb, a CIA informant, confirmed Oswald presence at the party. She also had been told that Oswald was sleeping with Duran. Winston Scott reported this information to CIA headquarters but never got a reply.
Elena was a nutjob...go read her bio---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Garro
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
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Go read this article. Disagree if desired but at least read it. OK?---
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
That appears to be a "tourist card" that is necessary to fill out to gain entry to Mexico (i.e. an immigration form). ...(note the comma after Lee that appears on the form):
It is a tourist card. Steve Galbraith called it a visa and that slipped by me. One researcher [David Joesephs] made a big deal about the name with the comma after Lee.
It is no big deal.
The tourist card was likely required if someone was going into Mexico using public transportation.
Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on February 05, 2020, 03:14:15 PM
Employees at the hotel and the nearby restaurant where he ate meals also said the man was Oswald.
Can testimony on that be linked? These statements are repeated constantly without obvious support.
I still have seen nothing to support these claims. Sylvia Odio actually testified and she is a liar?
From the Report... He told a passenger whom he met on the next leg of his trip that he had come from New Orleans
Contradiction --I thought he was saying that he was from Ft Worth.
From the Report... 1175 He was seen with no other person either at his hotel or at the restaurant.1176 A hotel guest stated that on one occasion he sat down at a table with Oswald because there was no empty table in the restaurant, but that neither spoke to the other because of the language barrier.1177
This is no testimony.
From the Report... She [Marina] had told him before he left that she would like Mexican silver bracelets as a souvenir, and he brought her a silver bracelet inscribed with her name.1186 Marina suspected, almost certainly correctly, that the bracelet, of Japanese origin, did not come from Mexico.1187 No such jewelry is known to be sold in or around Mexico City, because of a high duty 1188 but the bracelet is of a type commonly sold in 5-and-10-cent stores in Dallas.
From the Report... 2. The seat, No. 12, was reserved in the name of the travel agency, which recorded the reservation in the name of "H. O. Lee." 1192 The employee who made the reservation testified that he probably wrote the name that way because he was copying from Oswald's tourist card, which read "Lee, Harvey Oswald."
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And for as many times..this was stated after the Mexican Federal goons beat the crap out of her and accused her of a probable affair with the accused assassin.Elena was a nutjob...go read her bio---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Garro
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
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Go read this article. Disagree if desired but at least read it. OK?---
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
It is a tourist card. Steve Galbraith called it a visa and that slipped by me. One researcher [David Joesephs] made a big deal about the name with the comma after Lee.
It is no big deal.
The tourist card was likely required if someone was going into Mexico using public transportation.
Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on February 05, 2020, 03:14:15 PM Can testimony on that be linked? These statements are repeated constantly without obvious support.
I still have seen nothing to support these claims. Sylvia Odio actually testified and she is a liar?
From the Report... Contradiction --I thought he was saying that he was from Ft Worth.
From the Report... This is no testimony.
From the Report... From the Report...
And the Cuban consul, Eusebio Azcue, said the man was blond-haired, thin, about thirty-five years old, was wearing a suit, and was very thin-faced.
5' 3.5" Sylvia Duran said the "Oswald" she'd dealt with was short, about the same height as her.
Nikolai Leonov was 5' 7".
Oswald was 5' 9.5".
Oswald's hair was light brown in color.
Leonov's was blond.
Oswald, who probably wasn't in the Cuban consulate that day, was -- if we are to believe the photo which was probably taken in the USSR and was affixed to his Cuban visa application -- not wearing a suit.
Leonov, as "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy, wore a suit to work every workday.
Friday the 27th of September was a work day for him.
Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was particularly thin-faced?
Nikolai Leonov was.
Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald looked thirty-five years old?
Leonov was thirty-five years old in 1963.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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It is a tourist card. Steve Galbraith called it a visa and that slipped by me. One researcher [David Joesephs] made a big deal about the name with the comma after Lee.
It is no big deal.
The tourist card was likely required if someone was going into Mexico using public transportation.
Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico? And they did this to establish a paper trail? That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them. The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico. Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.
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Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico? And they did this to establish a paper trail? That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them. The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico. Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.
From Posner's "Case Closed":
"On Wednesday [October 2], at 8:30 a.m., he [Oswald] left on bus No. 332. Other passengers recall that at the border crossing, he was pulled off and questioned about his Mexican tourist papers, because initially the border guards thought his fifteen-day visa had expired. It was over fifteen days since the visa was issued, but Oswald showed them his entry stamp to prove he had not been in Mexico past the prescribed time. When it was resolved and he returned to the bus, other passengers heard him grumbling about the bureaucrats at the border. "
Posner refers to the document that I linked to as "tourist papers" and a "visa" (I don't believe Oswald had both; why would he need two of them?). I'll guess it went by both names? In any case, Oswald likely knew he would have to show authorities something allowing him in Mexico if he was stopped. I'll guess again - although it's not clear - that Mexican authorities checked everyone's visas/tourist cards as they left. Not just Oswald's.
Source: FBI interviews with passengers Mr. and Mrs. Juan de Cuba and Eulalio Rodriguez-Chavez
link: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0322a.htm
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From Posner's "Case Closed":
"On Wednesday [October 2], at 8:30 a.m., he [Oswald] left on bus No. 332. Other passengers recall that at the border crossing, he was pulled off and questioned about his Mexican tourist papers, because initially the border guards thought his fifteen-day visa had expired. It was over fifteen days since the visa was issued, but Oswald showed them his entry stamp to prove he had not been in Mexico past the prescribed time. When it was resolved and he returned to the bus, other passengers heard him grumbling about the bureaucrats at the border. "
Posner refers to the document that I linked to as "tourist papers" and a "visa" (I don't believe Oswald had both; why would he need two of them?). I'll guess it went by both names? In any case, Oswald likely knew he would have to show authorities something allowing him in Mexico if he was stopped. I'll guess again - although it's not clear - that Mexican authorities checked everyone's visas/tourist cards as they left. Not just Oswald's.
Source: FBI interviews with passengers Mr. and Mrs. Juan de Cuba and Eulalio Rodriguez-Chavez
link: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0322a.htm
They are slightly different but it is not unusual for them to be confused. I was just taking issue with Jerry's claim that the "visa" was unnecessary for the trip to Mexico. He argued that because Oswald was lazy and cheap that he would not have gone to the trouble of obtaining it or a passport and therefore this is evidence of an impersonator establishing a paper trail. Of course Oswald needed a passport to get to Cuba which was the whole point of his Mexico trip. Obtaining a passport had nothing to do with Mexico. And the "visa" which was actually a "tourist card" was necessary for him to gain entry to Mexico. Thus, both documents were necessary for him to achieve his objective and were not superfluous evidence of someone establishing a paper trail on his behalf.
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They are slightly different but it is not unusual for them to be confused. I was just taking issue with Jerry's claim that the "visa" was unnecessary for the trip to Mexico. He argued that because Oswald was lazy and cheap that he would not have gone to the trouble of obtaining it or a passport and therefore this is evidence of an impersonator establishing a paper trail. Of course Oswald needed a passport to get to Cuba which was the whole point of his Mexico trip. Obtaining a passport had nothing to do with Mexico. And the "visa" which was actually a "tourist card" was necessary for him to gain entry to Mexico. Thus, both documents were necessary for him to achieve his objective and were not superfluous evidence of someone establishing a paper trail on his behalf.
We see this evidence - eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence - as proof or at least powerful evidence that he did go to Mexico City.
A conspiracist, with a conspiracy mindset, sees the exact same evidence as proof that he didn't go, that it was an impostor. Because it's all faked.
That, in brief, is the gulf between the two sides. We say up is up and down is down; they say, as Garrison said you had to see things, up is down and down is up.
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Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico? And they did this to establish a paper trail? That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them. The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico. Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.
I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI. We see this evidence .... circumstantial evidence ...
A conspiracist, with a conspiracy mindset ...
"circumstantial evidence"--- If not an outright lie...all the evidence was circumstantial.
I am not a "conspiracy theorist". There is no such word as "conspiracist".
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If you open up CE 1781.. https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1781.pdf
Look at the bottom-- 549 up to 550 You will see that Marina stated that she learned about Oswald's trip to Mexico on TV. [See--her English was better than she let on]
Mrs Oswald said that she did NOT know anything about a trip to Mexico City.
Again CE 1792 Look at the bottom left of 319 up 3 paragraphs... "Asked if she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to Mexico..."
She replied in the negative --
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1792.pdf
Come testimony time though, she was ready to play ball.
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I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI.
Yes, I know what you believe but it was based on the false premise that Oswald didn't need to obtain a passport or "visa" for his trip to Mexico. He needed a passport to get to Cuba. That was his objective in going to Mexico. He didn't obtain a visa but turned in an immigration form like everyone else who went to Mexico. He had to do that to get to Mexico City. So it is demonstrably false that these documents were not necessary and were obtained by your fantasy impersonator solely to create a paper trail.
"Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba."
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I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI.
Yes, I know what you believe ....
It is not a case of what I 'believe'. Even J E Hoover thought it might be so. Go see him about it :-\
Review my reply #409 and respond to that one. Your lovely angel Marina lied...plain and simple.
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As I've said numerous times, if one wants to believe that all of this evidence - the eyewitness accounts, the physical evidence, the circumstantial evidence - is faked or phony then there's nothing further to discuss.
Whatever evidence is presented that Oswald went to Mexico City can be summarily dismissed as being inauthentic. So where is there to go?
You believe that the Cubans worked with the Soviets on this operation. Yet you believe that Azcue and Duran exposed it by revealing it wasn't Oswald. That makes no sense whatsoever. You say we can't believe the "communists" like Nechiporenko and Kostikov. But then believe the "communists" Azcue and Duran. That's illogical.
And for the tenth or twentieth time: Duran said that the man she met was Oswald. Her description is off but she said and has said repeatedly that the man was Lee Oswald. She testified to this. And has stated it in numerous interviews.
The CIA translators - Boris and Anne Tarasoff - who heard the phone calls from a person identifying himself as Oswald said the person spoken broken Russian. Neither said the person spoke broken English. They head the calls. That is what they testified to. Peter Dale Scott is a radical leftist who thinks the CIA killed JFK (and is the cause of every ill in the world). I find it remarkable that you use as a source someone you think has an anti-CIA bias and should be dismissed.
One can, as I said, look at the totality of evidence and conclude it was Oswald or one can look at the totality of evidence and conclude it was all part of some covert plan to fake the visit. It's a free choice.
Galbraith,
"Communism" had nothing to do with it, except tangentially.
The KGB (and probably the DGI) had everything to do with it.
Was Duran or Azcue KGB?
Where do you think Oswald's passport-sized photos were taken? (Hint: He wore that sweater vest in the USSR.)
Duran described "Oswald" as "cheaply dressed".
Does Oswald look cheaply dressed to you in that photo?
Azcue described "Oswald" as about thirty-five years of age, and not just thin-faced, but "very thin-faced".
Does Oswald look about 35 years old, and very thin-faced?
LOL
Don't run away, again, now ...
-- MWT ;)
PS Do you not believe that the FBI visited every photo shop within a five mile radius and that no one said they recognized or remembered Oswald's visiting them on Friday September 27?
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It is not a case of what I 'believe'. Even J E Hoover thought it might be so.
Review my reply #409 and respond to that one. Your lovely angel Marina lied...plain and simple.
J. Edgar Hoover's taped conversations with President Johnson dated November 23, 1963:--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LBJ: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September?
JEH: No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name, That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there was a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy here in Washington inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course that letter information, we process all mail that goes to the Soviet Embassy- it is a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the Soviet Embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive...Now if we can identify this man at the Mexican Embassy, at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City....
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It is not a case of what I 'believe'. Even J E Hoover thought it might be so. Go see him about it :-\
Review my reply #409 and respond to that one. Your lovely angel Marina lied...plain and simple.
Ugh. Again, the point is not what you are claiming or believe. It is that Oswald's acquisition of a passport and tourist card are not evidence of an imposter as you stated. The passport was necessary for Oswald to get to Cuba. The entire purpose of his Mexico visit. And the tourist card was necessary for him to get to Mexico. Thus they were necessary for his purposes and not documents that were superfluous to create a paper trail as you falsely claimed.
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Yes, I know what you believe but it was based on the false premise that Oswald didn't need to obtain a passport or "visa" for his trip to Mexico. He needed a passport to get to Cuba. That was his objective in going to Mexico. He didn't obtain a visa but turned in an immigration form like everyone else who went to Mexico. He had to do that to get to Mexico City. So it is demonstrably false that these documents were not necessary and were obtained by your fantasy impersonator solely to create a paper trail.
"Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba."
Hoover's suspicion that Oswald was impersonated was expressed in the early days after the assassination and before we (and he) learned all of this additional information from the Cuban officials - the transit visa application, their testimonies - from the Soviet officials, from the eyewitnesses on the bus and from others. Plus the paper trail, some of which the FBI had not yet obtained. Hoover had no access in the immediate aftermath to include this evidence in his views on what happened. We do.
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Ugh. Again, the point is not what you are claiming or believe. It is that Oswald's acquisition of a passport and tourist card are not evidence of an imposter as you stated. The passport was necessary for Oswald to get to Cuba. The entire purpose of his Mexico visit. And the tourist card was necessary for him to get to Mexico. Thus they were necessary for his purposes and not documents that were superfluous to create a paper trail as you falsely claimed.
I notice that reply 409 is still ignored. So much hinged on Marina's statements and as we see -she lied.
So now we just have a pile of crap papers to rely on. If they support the Report conclusions... they are framed in gold and honored.
If they do not ...they are ignored.
Peradventure that Oswald did go to MC and got his visa to Cuba and went there and survived on his good looks or whatever--and joined Fidel and the Cuban cause....What would have happened to Marina? His daughters? And the pistol and rifle that was supposed to be stashed in Ruth's garage and therefor President Kennedy would not have been shot?...at least not by Lee Harvey Oswald from a high building window.
I believe a 10th grader could see the fallacy of the Oswald did it alone yarn.
Oswalds here and Oswalds there --
(https://harveyandlee.net/JH%20PIX/KOPY_FBI.jpg)
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I notice that reply 409 is still ignored. So much hinged on Marina's statements and as we see -she lied.
So now we just have a pile of crap papers to rely on. If they support the Report conclusions... they are framed in gold and honored.
If they do not ...they are ignored.
Peradventure that Oswald did go to MC and got his visa to Cuba and went there and survived on his good looks or whatever--and joined Fidel and the Cuban cause....What would have happened to Marina? His daughters? And the pistol and rifle that was supposed to be stashed in Ruth's garage and therefor President Kennedy would not have been shot?...at least not by Lee Harvey Oswald from a high building window.
I believe a 10th grader could see the fallacy of the Oswald did it alone yarn.
Oswalds here and Oswalds there --
(https://harveyandlee.net/JH%20PIX/KOPY_FBI.jpg)
I can't decipher this rambling. You cited Oswald's acquisition of a passport and "visa" as being evidence of an impersonator because you claimed Oswald did not need these documents and would have been too lazy to obtain them. I've explained why those documents were necessary for Oswald's trip (i.e. the passport was necessary to get to Cuba and the "visa" was actually a tourist card necessary to travel to Mexico). So before moving on something else like in a game of whack-a-mole, how about just confirming your prior claim does not support your point?
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I can't decipher this rambling. You cited Oswald's acquisition of a passport and "visa" as being evidence of an impersonator because you claimed Oswald did not need these documents and would have been too lazy to obtain them. I've explained why those documents were necessary for Oswald's trip (i.e. the passport was necessary to get to Cuba and the "visa" was actually a tourist card necessary to travel to Mexico). So before moving on something else like in a game of whack-a-mole, how about just confirming your prior claim does not support your point?
Why don't you try and make sense.
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Why don't you try and make sense.
Oswald's acquisition of a passport and tourist card are not evidence of an imposter as was stupidly suggested. Rather, they were necessary to accomplish his avowed purpose of traveling to Cuba via Mexico City. Therefore, your claim contains a false premise (that these documents were not required) and incorrect information (that Oswald obtained a visa): "I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba."
It's pretty straightforward.
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Oswald's acquisition of a passport and tourist card are not evidence of an imposter as was stupidly suggested.
It's pretty straightforward.
I believe I stated that an imposter may have acquired those documents and impersonated Oswald..it's pretty straightforward.
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I believe I stated that an imposter may have acquired those documents and impersonated Oswald..it's pretty straightforward.
Nope. You suggested they were evidence of an impersonator because they were not required for Oswald's trip to Mexico and Oswald was too lazy and cheap to have obtained such documents if they were not required. Why else would you reference Oswald being "cheap" and "lazy" in this context?
"One thing that keeps nagging me. Established earlier...A passport [let alone a visa] was not required to visit Mexico back then.
Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba."
The acquisition of passport to travel to Cuba and tourist card to travel to Mexico were necessary for Oswald's avowed purpose. They in no way lend themselves to proving an imposter as you suggested based upon a false premise that they were not required and Oswald would not have gone to the trouble of obtaining them.
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And for as many times..this was stated after the Mexican Federal goons beat the crap out of her and accused her of a probable affair with the accused assassin.Elena was a nutjob...go read her bio---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Garro
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
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Go read this article. Disagree if desired but at least read it. OK?---
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
It is a tourist card. Steve Galbraith called it a visa and that slipped by me. One researcher [David Joesephs] made a big deal about the name with the comma after Lee.
It is no big deal.
The tourist card was likely required if someone was going into Mexico using public transportation.
Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on February 05, 2020, 03:14:15 PM Can testimony on that be linked? These statements are repeated constantly without obvious support.
I still have seen nothing to support these claims. Sylvia Odio actually testified and she is a liar?
From the Report... Contradiction --I thought he was saying that he was from Ft Worth.
From the Report... This is no testimony.
From the Report... From the Report...
Duran testified to the HSCA that the man was Oswald. She said she was not beaten by the Mexican police but that they were rough with her and tried to force her to admit she was part of a communist plot to kill JFK. She also said she kicked one of them in the "balls".
In any case, she has told others that the man was Oswald.
Here is, again, what she told the HSCA:
HARDAWAY - Going back to when you recognized Oswald, the man whose picture you had seen in the paper as the man who had been at the Embassy three times. Were you certain that the man in the papers was the same man, before you checked your records at the archives?
TIRADO - Yes. Immediately I saw the paper, I told him [her husband] this was the man that I want to check.
"Yes. Immediately..."
She said she then went to the Cuban consulate to check on the visa application to make sure it was the same man. She said it was: Lee Harvey Oswald.
Her fully testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm
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Duran testified to the HSCA that the man was Oswald. She said she was not beaten by the Mexican police ....
CORNWELL - Would you like to state your name?
TIRADO - Silvia Tirado Bazan.
CORNWELL - And where's your present home address?
TIRADO - Avenida Universidad 1900 Edificio 12 Departmento 402 Colonia Numero De Terrenos
CORNWELL - For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan Hardway. We represent the House Select Committee on assassinations of the Congress of the United States. Also with us here today representing the Mexican Goverment is Honorio Escondon, Dr. Alfonso Orozco Contreras. Today is June 6, 1978 and the time is approximately 5:45 in the afternoon. Would you tell us what your date and place of birth is?
TIRADO - 22nd of November, 1937.
Silvia not likely to ever forget the day of the assassination.
She had to go back home to her family in safety after this interview.
Obviously some people do not understand the ruthlessness of the Federales.
So you guys are saying that Oswald was abandoning his family and leaving penniless with reckless abandon to gain entry into Cuba.
&----If he was successful... then Kennedy would not have been killed in Dallas. Right?
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PETER DALE SCOTT – The Deeper Truth Still Not Revealed
Peter Dale Scott in Deep Politics 3 writes:
“In the days after the murders in Dallas the U.S. was flooded with dubious stories, most of them swiftly discredited, linking Oswald to either a Cuban or Soviet conspiracy. Those which most preoccupied the FBI and CIA all came out of Mexico. These stories exhibited certain common characteristics.”
“1. They all came from either directly from an intelligence source, or from someone in the hands of an intelligence agency. Nearly always the agency involved was the Mexican DFS or secret police. The DFS, along with the Nicaraguan intelligence service, which was also a source, were under CIA tutelage.”
“2 The Stories changed over time, to support either a pro-conspiratorial hypothesis (‘Phase One’) or a rebuttal of this (“’Phase Two’).”
“3. The Warren Commission was led to believe that the ‘Phase One’ stories were without basis. In fact a number of unresolved anomalies suggest that behind them was some deeper truth, still not revealed.”
“4. As noted the two main sources, Silvia Duran and Gilberto Alvarado, gave varying stories while detained by the DFS. Of the two, Duran was actually tortured, and Alvarado reportedly threatened with torture... In retrospect, these stories should not have been taken seriously. In fact the CIA was able to rely on them, not as a source of truth, but as a source of coercive influence over the rest of the government. It will help us to understand what was going on if we refer to the stories, not as 'information' or even as 'allegations,' but as MANAGED STORIES. To say this leaves open the question of who were the ultimate managers – the DFS, U.S. Officers in Mexico, or higher authorities in Washington.”
“The full history is complex and confused, with many unanswered questions. But nearly all of these managed stories, along with others outside Mexico.....resolve into this simple pattern of a Phase One/Phase Two evolution. To this day both 'Phase-One' and 'Phase-Two' versions are trotted out from time to time. These control public perceptions of the Kennedy assassination seize the debate from genuine critics who have less access to the media.”
“I do wish to argue that these managed stories, fleeting and insubstantial though they are, were of central importance in determining the outcome of the Kennedy assassination investigation. In succeeding years, furthermore, the discredited ‘Phase-One’ stories have been revived to manipulate public opinion, even after the CIA and FBI had agreed on a ‘Phase-Two’ interpretation of Oswald's movements in Mexico City. In 2013, for example, the discredited Garro story of the twist party was revived in a mainstream book by Philip Shenon. [Philip Shenon, A Cruel and Shocking Act: The Secret History of the Kennedy Assassination (New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2013), 496-98 etc.].”
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PETER DALE SCOTT – The Deeper Truth Still Not Revealed
"The full history is complex and confused, with many unanswered questions. But nearly all of these managed stories,
Managed stories.......The work of J. Edgar Hoover.....
Lee did go to Mexico City ....He was playing Herb Philbrick for the FBI.....The naive patsy simply didn't understand that he was being set up.
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In view of the fact that it contradicted the testimony of three others...why did postal inspector Harry Holmes testify that Oswald SAID in fact that he did go to Mexico City and to those consulates there? The bigger question...Why did the Warren Commission accept this?
Mr. STERN - During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever been in Mexico, and if so, by whom?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if He had ever been in Mexico.
Mr. STERN - What did he say?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - He said he had not.
Mr. STERN. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?
Mr. HOSTY. The 25th of October.
How could Mr Hosty have known about this supposed trip to Mexico before Oswald had supposedly ever arrived there?
Mr. McCLOY. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.
Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside or the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.
Mr. McCLOY. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. Not to Mexico City.
Mr. HOSTY. Not to Mexico City; that is right.
Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in?
Mr. FRITZ.... Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.
Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.
Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"
"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?
Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
Well at least Mr Holmes did not report about Oswald reminiscing about the bullfights he saw during his stay in Mexico. ::)
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The HSCA report on Oswald and Mexico City...
409 pages
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149234#relPageId=1&tab=page
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The HSCA report on Oswald and Mexico City...
409 pages
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149234#relPageId=1&tab=page
Which concludes that he was there, stayed in the hotel, signed his name.
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The Warren Commissions report on the Mexico city incident is referred to in the following video by Jim DiEugenio at 14:30:
Its hard to hear him. What does he call the report? - Did he say the "Slawson Colmer" report? Where can this report be found online?
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The Warren Commissions report on the Mexico city incident is referred to in the following video by Jim DiEugenio at 14:30:
Its hard to hear him. What does he call the report? - Did he say the "Slawson Colmer" report? Where can this report be found online?
It's the "Slawson-Coleman" report. David Slawson and William Coleman were two WC staffers who were sent to Mexico City and investigate Oswald's activities there. I guess the reference is to a report they submitted to the WC on their findings. If you do a search at the Mary Ferrell site you can find it.
Added: Slawson filed a memo, not a report, to the WC about his findings: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcmemos/Trip_to_Mexico_City/html/104-10011-10097_0001a.htm
I have a couple of questions, please. I am not accusing you of anything but is your real name Margaret Kelly? Are you associated with any conspiracy group like Black Op radio or another group? If you'd rather not answer I can understand.
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Which concludes that he was there, stayed in the hotel, signed his name.
I believe that Lee Oswald did go to Mexico City......
Let me propose this question.... Would Lee have become irate and angry at FBI agent Hosty for simply asking if he had been to Mexico City, if he had not been there?
Lee knew that there was a connection between his presence in Mexico City, and the assassination. That's why he became angry and adamantly denied that he had been to MC.
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Which concludes that he was there, stayed in the hotel, signed his name.
And Oswald went to a party with a couple of his buddies and did a thingaling with Silvia Duran?
Right :-\
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I believe that Lee Oswald did go to Mexico City......
Let me propose this question.... Would Lee have become irate and angry at FBI agent Hosty for simply asking if he had been to Mexico City, if he had not been there?
Lee knew that there was a connection between his presence in Mexico City, and the assassination. That's why he became angry and adamantly denied that he had been to MC.
Walt...Oswald hated Hosty. He was most angry at the questioner rather than the question.
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Walt...Oswald hated Hosty. He was most angry at the questioner rather than the question.
No, that's not the true picture. Hosty got himself in boiling hot water with J.Edna for bringing up the subject of MC. during the first interrogation of Lee Oswald. Hoover yanked him out of the interrogations because of that faux pas.... Hoover wanted to avoid the MC incident, because he knew that his extra special agents had sent Lee to MC to try to get a visa to Cuba.... They had plotted to connect Lee To Castro but the Cuban's didn't cooperate .....
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Walt...Oswald hated Hosty. He was most angry at the questioner rather than the question.
While browsing I found this statement translated from Marina's notes....
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One day Lee came home from work and had not yet changed his clothes when some man knocked at the door .He turned out to be an FBI agent and asked Lee to come into a car, which he had parked across the street ,and talk. There was one other man in the car .They talked for two hours ,and I started getting angry at these uninvited guests ,since it is no fun to heat up dinner several times. Lee came home very upset but tried not to show it.
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pdf/WH18_CE_994.pdf page 619
Hosty? and who else?
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While browsing I found this statement translated from Marina's notes....
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pdf/WH18_CE_994.pdf page 619
Hosty? and who else?
Do you have a date for this incident?.... If the FBI man was Hosty, then his partner would probably have been Wilson ....BUT....I doubt that the man was Hosty....
I suspect that the men were Hoover's "Extra Special" agents..... Who were setting Lee up as the patsy.
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Walt...Oswald hated Hosty. He was most angry at the questioner rather than the question.
I don't know if Lee hated Hosty.... I do believe that Hosty had tried to woo Marina and Marina had told Lee about Hosty's advances. ( If you had met Marina I'm sure you'd understand.... She was a very sexy gal. ( beautiful green eyes)
So lee could have been angry about that, but he was more upset because Hosty had not responded to the note that he had left at the FBI offices. Lee had learned that there was a plot to assassinate JFK on his visit to Dallas and he wanted the FBI to be aware of the plot. Lee was planning on the hoax attempt on JFK, and he wanted the FBI to know that there was a serious plot afoot.
When Hosty showed up at the interrogation, and Lee learned who he was, he became very angry.... Because he had tried to warn Hosty about the plot but the dopey Hosty didn't respond to the note. Lee had written that note hoping that Hosty would come looking for him and then he could tell Hosty what he had learned.
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Do you have a date for this incident?.... If the FBI man was Hosty, then his partner would probably have been Wilson ....BUT....I doubt that the man was Hosty....
I suspect that the men were Hoover's "Extra Special" agents..... Who were setting Lee up as the patsy.
See the link. They were staying at Robert Oswalds in Ft Worth. It seems to me there could have been patsies all over the country depending upon where they might have been needed. It takes a real sheep to believe there was no plot.
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Seems like there was consensus reached by the MIC in BOTH super power nations that nuke war was NOT a viable option. And that the future profiteering off warfare would be from proxy conventional warfare by 3rd world elements whom could be sold small arms and munitions by either or both super power MIC
The USSR comrade commissar was amenable to the new idea this was not assassinated
The USA Nationalist Populist President on the other hand confronted the MIC aspirations for expanded 3rd world warfare in Vietnam vowed to “scatter the CIA to the winds”. He was assassinated about one month later. replaced with an MIC supporting LBJ
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Seems like there was consensus reached by the MIC in BOTH super power nations that nuke war was NOT a viable option. And that the future profiteering off warfare would be from proxy conventional warfare by 3rd world elements whom could be sold small arms and munitions by either or both super power MIC
The USSR comrade commissar was amenable to the new idea this was not assassinated
The USA Nationalist Populist President on the other hand confronted the MIC aspirations for expanded 3rd world warfare in Vietnam vowed to “scatter the CIA to the winds”. He was assassinated about one month later. replaced with an MIC supporting LBJ
Where did JFK say he would "scatter the CIA to the winds"? Answer: nowhere. It's a made up quote that has never been attributed to anyone on record and certainly not to JFK.
The source for this claim is apparently here: https://www.nytimes.com/1966/04/25/archives/cia-maker-of-policy-or-tool-survey-finds-widely-feared-agency-is.html
If you read the piece - and this is only source for it that I know of - no one is mentioned. It's an anonymous source who says JFK said it. That's almost worthless.
What does the CIA have to do with Vietnam?
The cause of the Third World warfare was the Soviets arming and funding guerilla armies to install Marxist or Moscow-supporting regimes. JFK knew this. That is why he tried to counter it with his own policies. Look up "Green Berets" for example.
JFK believed that the Soviets were an existential threat to the West. He was going to defend it from that threat. As he was going to say the day he was killed:
"We in this country, in this generation, are - by destiny rather than choice-the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask, therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of "peace on earth, good will toward men." That must always be our goal, and the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our strength. For as was written long ago: "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
That's a steadfast defender of the US and someone not willing to surrender to the Soviets.
And one more: Lee Harvey Oswald did indeed go to Mexico City. He wanted to defect to Cuba. Had he done so JFK would not have been assassinated in Dallas.
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And one more: Lee Harvey Oswald did indeed go to Mexico City. He wanted to defect to Cuba. Had he done so JFK would not have been assassinated in Dallas.
How could you possibly know that?
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Where did JFK say he would "scatter the CIA to the winds"? Answer: nowhere. It's a made up quote that has never been attributed to anyone on record and certainly not to JFK.
The source for this claim is apparently here: https://www.nytimes.com/1966/04/25/archives/cia-maker-of-policy-or-tool-survey-finds-widely-feared-agency-is.html
If you read the piece - and this is only source for it that I know of - no one is mentioned. It's an anonymous source who says JFK said it. That's almost worthless.
What does the CIA have to do with Vietnam?
The cause of the Third World warfare was the Soviets arming and funding guerilla armies to install Marxist or Moscow-supporting regimes. JFK knew this. That is why he tried to counter it with his own policies. Look up "Green Berets" for example.
JFK believed that the Soviets were an existential threat to the West. He was going to defend it from that threat. As he was going to say the day he was killed:
"We in this country, in this generation, are - by destiny rather than choice-the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask, therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of "peace on earth, good will toward men." That must always be our goal, and the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our strength. For as was written long ago: "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."
That's a steadfast defender of the US and someone not willing to surrender to the Soviets.
And one more: Lee Harvey Oswald did indeed go to Mexico City. He wanted to defect to Cuba. Had he done so JFK would not have been assassinated in Dallas.
Steve M.,
You're absolutely right about the Soviet (Sino-Soviet, actually) threat to The West during the Cold War (which, btw, never ended as far as the Kremlin was concerned), and JFK's realistic appraisal of same.
In 1963, Kennedy sent a personal message (outside regular channels) to U.S.-despising Charles de Gaulle to the effect that the French government and its intelligence services had, based on intel from true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn, been severely penetrated by the KGB.
But to no avail. De Gaulle (and even the few non-"mole" members of his inner circle -- lol) didn't heed JFK's advice as it created boucoup cognitive dissonance and potential embarrassment for the French leader and his lackeys, and only careless traitor Georges Paques was caught, and red-handed (pardon the pun), at that.
Point being: Kennedy was a charismatic anti-communist, and, as we now know regarding the Castro regime in Cuber, was not above playing a complicated, two-track strategy against the Commies.
-- MWT ;)
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Where did JFK say he would "scatter the CIA to the winds"? Answer: nowhere. It's a made up quote that has never been attributed to anyone on record and certainly not to JFK.
Dumbass statement #1 What does the CIA have to do with Vietnam?
Dumbass statement #2 And one more: Lee Harvey Oswald did indeed go to Mexico City. He wanted to defect to Cuba. Had he done so JFK would not have been assassinated in Dallas.
And one more: [dumbass statement] Who told you he wanted to defect--- your lower backside? Maybe not Dallas but Kennedy's number was up.
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Is this the "Slawson-Coleman" report?:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/wc/contents_wcmemo_Oswald-Foreign-Activities.htm
I thought this report was supposed to be on Oswalds mexico city trip. The chapter headings don't mention mexico city.
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Getting the story right....
J. Edgar Hoover had not ruled out the possibility of a communist plot to kill John F. Kennedy. At 1.40 on 29th November, Hoover told Lyndon B. Johnson on the telephone: "This angle in Mexico is giving us a great deal of trouble because the story there is of this man Oswald getting $6,500 from the Cuban embassy and then coming back to this country with it. We're not able to prove that fact, but the information was that he was there on the 18th of September in Mexico City and we are able to prove conclusively he was in New Orleans that day. Now then they've changed the dates. The story came in changing the dates to the 28th of September and he was in Mexico City on the 28th. Now the Mexican police have again arrested this woman Duran, who is a member of the Cuban embassy... and we're going to confront her with the original informant, who saw the money pass, so he says, and we're also going to put the lie detector test on him."
That evening Fernando Gutiérrez Barrios told Winston Scott that Gilberto Alvarado had recanted and signed a statement admitting that his story of seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the Cuban Embassy was completely false. He said his motive was to try to get the United States to take action against Fidel Castro.
A few days later Gilberto Alvarado reverted to his original story. He told his Nicaraguan handler that the only reason that he recanted was that his interrogators threatened "to hang him by his testicles". However, soon afterwards, he recanted again.
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKduranS.htm
For those Limeys, Aussies, and Canucks that don't know anything about the Mexican Federales ..they are just as brutal as any cartel members...many of them are cartel members.
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No proof of Oswald being in Mexico City in 1963 !
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No proof of Oswald being in Mexico City in 1963 !
I agree.
He was probably impersonated over sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone lines on Saturday September 28, and on Tuesday October 1 by the same KGB officer (Nikolai Leonov) who had given Sylvia Duran some taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald, and who had given her an already-forged Cuban application form, and who had told her and the Cuban consul, Eusebio Azcue, what to do and say (with Fidel Castro's permission, of course) about the "Oswald" who had allegedly visited them, desperately trying to get to the USSR via Cuba.
All speculation, of course, but it is interesting to note that the combined descriptions of "Oswald" that Duran gave in 1963 and in 1978, and which Azcue gave in 1978, describe Leonov to a "T", and he would have had access to those photos taken in Minsk, and to the high-quality forgery services of his KGB colleagues.
-- MWT ;)
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No proof of Oswald being in Mexico City in 1963 !
Apart from multiple eye witnesses and multiple Oswald signatures.
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Apart from multiple eye witnesses and multiple Oswald signatures.
And multiple documents - two from Oswald himself - stating it.
After he returned from MC, he mailed a typewritten letter to the Soviet Embassy in Washington discussing the visit (he complained about his treatment by the Cubans) and asking them to expedite his visa request. It was typed on Ruth Paine's typewriter (verified by the FBI). Both Ruth and Marina testified they saw him typing it. He had written out a rough draft - found by Ruth Paine - of that letter (below). The draft letter was in his handwriting. The typed letter was signed by him. The address on the label was identified as being written by him.
Witnesses on the bus going and returning, witnesses in MC, signatures, documents, photos for his transit visa application, circumstantial evidence....it's a pretty long list. I'm not sure what more is needed. Cuban and Soviet officials/personnel, including three KGB agents, said the man they met was Oswald. Were they in on it too? The CIA-KGB-Cuban intelligence conspiracy to frame Oswald? Whew, everybody was out to setup poor Oswald. The guy couldn't catch a break.
I keep repeating this in the hope that it'll get through. A triumph of hope over experience <g>.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a7ff/2iqc47nb6wy30onzg.jpg)
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And multiple documents - two from Oswald himself - stating it.
I keep repeating this in the hope that it'll get through. A triumph of hope over experience
The guy couldn't catch a break.
Yawn-- Please give us one.
Apart from multiple eye witnesses and multiple Oswald signatures.
Ho hum.
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Apart from multiple eye witnesses and multiple Oswald signatures.
You're right, Mr Shields. There's plenty of evidence that Lee went to Mexico City at the end of September 1963. I cannot understand why some folks deny that he was there....
I do believe that J.Edgar Hoover is responsible for the disinformation that created the controversy. After the murder of JFK, Hoover did not want it known that his "Extra Special" agents were behind the Mexico City escapade. They had manipulated Lee Oswald into going to Mexico City where Cuba had an embassy in which Lee could apply for a visa to Cuba. This was all part of the "sheep dipping" that they had been performing to make Lee Oswald appear to be a communist and a friend of Cuba.
The fact that the Cuban Ambassador refused to grant Lee Oswald a visa is strong evidence that the Cubans knew that they were being scammed.
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Here is Marina's account to the HSCA of her discussions with Oswald about him going to Mexico City and what would then happen to her. She had remarried and taken the Porter name.
Mr. McDONALD - What was your reaction to this whole affair, going to Mexico City, going back to Dallas
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I was very upset about it. I did not know if I would see Lee again. I had to be responsible for one child and I had expecting another one. So, anyway, I was quite lost. On top of everything, I could not share that with no one.
Mr. McDONALD - Could you share it with Ruth Paine?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - No.
Mr. McDONALD - Why do you say that?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, I don't know why, but I was not approved of what Lee did, but at the same time he was my husband and I have to be somehow loyal to him.
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - When he left for Mexico City, when you both parted in New Orleans, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I honestly did not expect to see him again, but he said that if his trip to the Cuban Embassy would be unsuccessful and they would not permit him to go to Cuba, then he would come back to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Tex.
Mr. McDONALD - That he would not come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - He will come back.
Mr. McDONALD - You are saying--the question was, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - In the matter of a week.
Mr. McDONALD - You did expect him to come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, if he did, it was understood if he can go to Cuba right away, he will go, but if he can't, then he come back to Texas.
Mr. McDONALD - If he had been successful in getting to Cuba right away, what was your plan? What were you to do?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, he said that he will be in touch with me and send for me to follow him to Cuba.
Mr. McDONALD - Did he ever discuss if he were unsuccessful in getting into Cuba, that he would try to go back to the Soviet Union from Mexico City?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Yes, that was discussed, too.
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - At that point was he willing to go back to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - As far as I remember right now, I think, yes.
So when he came back from the failed attempt to get into Cuba he sent a letter to the Soviet Embassy in Washington asking them to process his visa application. He was still willing - if Marina is correct - to go to the USSR. But the Soviet officials had decided to reject his (and Marina's) application. Oswald was stuck in the US, a country whose political and economic systems he said were part of a "slave" system.
Link/testimony: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar2.htm
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Here is Marina's account to the HSCA of her discussions with Oswald about him going to Mexico City and what would then happen to her. She had remarried and taken the Porter name.
Mr. McDONALD - What was your reaction to this whole affair, going to Mexico City, going back to Dallas
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I was very upset about it. I did not know if I would see Lee again. I had to be responsible for one child and I had expecting another one. So, anyway, I was quite lost. On top of everything, I could not share that with no one.
Mr. McDONALD - Could you share it with Ruth Paine?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - No.
Mr. McDONALD - Why do you say that?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, I don't know why, but I was not approved of what Lee did, but at the same time he was my husband and I have to be somehow loyal to him.
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - When he left for Mexico City, when you both parted in New Orleans, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I honestly did not expect to see him again, but he said that if his trip to the Cuban Embassy would be unsuccessful and they would not permit him to go to Cuba, then he would come back to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Tex.
Mr. McDONALD - That he would not come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - He will come back.
Mr. McDONALD - You are saying--the question was, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - In the matter of a week.
Mr. McDONALD - You did expect him to come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, if he did, it was understood if he can go to Cuba right away, he will go, but if he can't, then he come back to Texas.
Mr. McDONALD - If he had been successful in getting to Cuba right away, what was your plan? What were you to do?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, he said that he will be in touch with me and send for me to follow him to Cuba.
Mr. McDONALD - Did he ever discuss if he were unsuccessful in getting into Cuba, that he would try to go back to the Soviet Union from Mexico City?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Yes, that was discussed, too.
Mr. McDONALD/MARINA - At that point was he willing to go back to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - As far as I remember right now, I think, yes.
So when he came back from the failed attempt to get into Cuba he sent a letter to the Soviet Embassy in Washington asking them to process his visa application. He was still willing - if Marina is correct - to go to the USSR. But the Soviet officials had decided to reject his (and Marina's) application. Oswald was stuck in the US, a country whose political and economic systems he said were part of a "slave" system.
Link/testimony: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar2.htm
Steve M.,
I haven't even read this, but let me ask you a question:
Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald, née Marina Nikolayevna(? ? ?) Prusakova, said about anything related to Lee Harvey Oswald?
(Ditto: Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, Leonov, et al.)
LOL
-- MWT ;)
PS You might want to read this:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald
The author makes only one mistake as far as I can see: Oswald didn't renounce his citizenship. He tried, but was "unsuccessful".
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Steve M.,
I haven't even read this, but let me ask you a question:
Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald, née Marina Nikolayevna(? ? ?) Prusakova, said about anything related to Lee Harvey Oswald?
(Ditto: Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, Leonov, et al.)
LOL
-- MWT ;)
PS You might want to read this:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald
Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald,
Because it's the truth!
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I honestly did not expect to see him again, but he said that if his trip to the Cuban Embassy would be unsuccessful and they would not permit him to go to Cuba, then he would come back to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Tex.
Mr. McDONALD - That he would not come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - He will come back.
Mr. McDONALD - You are saying--the question was, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - In the matter of a week.
Mr. McDONALD - You did expect him to come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, if he did, it was understood if he can go to Cuba right away, he will go, but if he can't, then he come back to Texas.
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Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald,
Because it's the truth!
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - I honestly did not expect to see him again, but he said that if his trip to the Cuban Embassy would be unsuccessful and they would not permit him to go to Cuba, then he would come back to Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Tex.
Mr. McDONALD - That he would not come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - He will come back.
Mr. McDONALD - You are saying--the question was, when did you expect to see him again?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - In the matter of a week.
Mr. McDONALD - You did expect him to come back?
Mrs. PORTER/MARINA - Well, if he did, it was understood if he can go to Cuba right away, he will go, but if he can't, then he come back to Texas.
LOL
You are so gullible.
Read the Stratfor article I posted above, Walter.
Here it is again:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald
-- MWT ;)
PS And this blog post by a George W. Bailey:
http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-marina-prusakova-with-love.html?m=1
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LOL
You are so gullible.
Read the Stratfor article I posted above, Walter.
Here it is again:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald
Marina was telling the truth.... Believe It Or Not.
-- MWT ;)
PS And this blog post by a George W. Bailey:
http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-marina-prusakova-with-love.html?m=1
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Thanks for "bumping" it, Walter!
-- MWT ;)
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Steve M.,
I haven't even read this, but let me ask you a question:
Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald, née Marina Nikolayevna(? ? ?) Prusakova, said about anything related to Lee Harvey Oswald?
(Ditto: Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov, Leonov, et al.)
LOL
-- MWT ;)
PS You might want to read this:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mystery-marina-oswald
The author makes only one mistake as far as I can see: Oswald didn't renounce his citizenship. He tried, but was "unsuccessful".
Because her statements on this matter - his visit to MC most specifically - are corroborated by other evidence. This thread is filled with evidence - from me and others - corroborating his visit there. What more can be produced?
As to the details such as he was going to Cuba and then (somehow) get her to join him; that's just her claim. We have no way of verifying that. So we can accept or reject that since we have no way of corroborating it.
In any case, I don't believe ANY eyewitness accounts by itself unless they can be verified or corroborated. I thought all sides on this matter agreed on that if nothing else?
Question: Why do you believe Azcue's account that the person he met wasn't Oswald? Or didn't look like the Oswald arrested for the murder of JFK. What corroborates his claim?
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Because her statements on this matter - his visit to MC most specifically - are corroborated by other evidence. This thread is filled with evidence - from me and others - corroborating his visit there. What more can be produced?
As to the details such as he was going to Cuba and then (somehow) get her to join him; that's just her claim. We have no way of verifying that. So we can accept or reject that since we have no way of corroborating it.
In any case, I don't believe ANY eyewitness accounts by itself unless they can be verified or corroborated. I thought all sides on this matter agreed on that if nothing else?
Question: Why do you believe Azcue's account that the person he met wasn't Oswald? Or didn't look like the Oswald arrested for the murder of JFK. What corroborates his claim?
Steve M.,
Problem is, the source of some of that "evidence" is the KGB.
Regarding your question about Azcue, have you read any of my many, many posts here and at the EF and on my sorely neglected (by me) Google page "Jumbo Duh Is Full Of Beans" ..... on Aleksei Kulak (FBI's FEDORA), Oleg Brykin, Guenter Schulz (FBI's TUMBLEWEED), Valiery Kostikov, Ivan Obyedkov, and ... "The Blond Oswald In Mexico City" (KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov)?
.
If you had, highly intelligent guy that you are, you would already know the answer.
.
Hint: Google "blond oswald" and leonov simultaneously, and you might even try googling byetkov and obyedkov simultaneously .
-- MWT ;)
PS Please bear in mind that my theory regarding these characters has been an evolving one.
PPS Have you even read Azcue's HSCA description of the "Oswald" he dealt with? The only thing he forgot to say was "short' (which 5' 3.5" Sylvia Duran did remember to include, btw). LOL
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/pdf/HSCA_Vol3_0918_2_Azcue.pdf
EDIT: Funny thing, Azcue says "Oswald" was wearing a Prince of Wales suit, and in some of the clearer photos of Leonov taken while he was interpreting for Khruschev and Castro in the USSR, you can see some Prince of Wales-like stripes in his suit jacket.
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Steve M.,
The problem is, the source of some of that "evidence" is the KGB.
Regarding your question about Azcue, have you read any of my many, many posts here and at the EF and on my sorely neglected (by me) Google page "Jumbo Duh Is Full Of Beans" ..... on Aleksei Kulak (FBI's FEDORA), Oleg Brykin, Guenter Schulz (FBI's TUMBLEWEED), Valiery Kostikov, Ivan Obyedkov, and ... "The Blond Oswald In Mexico City" (KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov)?
.
If you had, highly intelligent guy that you are, you would already know the answer.
.
Hint: Google "blond oswald" and leonov simultaneously, and you might even try googling byetkov and obyedkov simultaneously .
-- MWT ;)
PS Please bear in mind that my theory regarding these characters has been an evolving one.
PPS Have you even read Azcue's HSCA description of the "Oswald" he dealt with? The only thing he forgot to say was "short' (which 5' 3.5" Sylvia Duran did remember to include, btw). LOL
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/pdf/HSCA_Vol3_0918_2_Azcue.pdf
EDIT: Funny thing, Azcue says "Oswald" was wearing a Prince of Wales suit, and in some of the clearer photos of Leonov taken while he was interpreting for Khruschev and Castro in the USSR, you can see some Prince of Wales-like stripes in his suit jacket.
Steve M.?
Have you run away, AGAIN?
-- MWT ;)
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Always amazes me that everything Marina says is a lie, despite mountains of proof for most of the things she talked about, yet everything someone like Roger Craig says is gospel.
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Steve M.?
Have you run away, AGAIN?
-- MWT ;)
I've had about a half dozen exchanges with you on this matter and at this point there's no place go to. It's just going to be a repeat of what I've said.
I've presented the evidence that Oswald went to MC. You dismiss each piece as being faked or planted or staged. You believe, for example, Marina and Ruth Paine typed the letter that Oswald sent to the Soviet Embassy. As to the signature, well you can't explain that. You think the draft copy in his handwriting is somehow faked. On and on, fake this and fake that. There is no way I can disprove these claims. In fact, every piece of evidence for me that he went is evidence for you that he didn't: because every piece for you has been manufactured to make it appear he went there. If 100 pieces of evidence is presented that he went is produced, you will view each of those 100 pieces as evidence he didn't. Up is down and down is up for you. So again, where can we take this? It's a dead end of repetition.
Your claim that Oswald was impersonated at the consulate is solely based on Azcue's and Duran's description of Oswald's heighth. You ignore Duran saying - for half a century - that it was Oswald. Your claim that he was impersonated on a phone call is that there's a memo somewhere written by someone somewhere that the caller spoke broken English. And that - and that alone - proves it was a Soviet impostor. The CIA translators - the Tarasoff couple - who say they heard/translated the calls never mention anything about the speaker having broken English. But you ignore that. The Soviet Embassy officials say the man they met over two days was Oswald. But you say they are lying because of some plan to prevent a fuller investigation by the WC because of a fear of a war. So again, their claims are, for you, faked.
Again, you seem to be incapable of disagreeing without being disagreeable. It's why no one here, frankly, exchanges posts with you after a couple of tries. You are a mirror image of DiEugenio. He sees the CIA behind everything; you see the Soviets behind everything.
The evidence that Oswald went to MC - the eyewitness accounts, the physical evidence, the photographic evidence, the circumstantial evidence - for me is substantial. I've posted most of it. You can accept it or, as is your choice, reject it all as faked. There's nothing further to discuss unless we just repeat again and again and again what we say. At this point, I choose not to.
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Always amazes me that everything Marina says is a lie, despite mountains of proof for most of the things she talked about, yet everything someone like Roger Craig says is gospel.
As some of us have said before, if Marina was coerced into lying then she could have make far more damaging statements that implicated Oswald. Such as: he hated JFK or she saw him leave the morning of the assassination with a large paper bag or that he told her he was going to take the rifle with him to sell. There's a half dozen statements that one can imagine that easily could have made the case against Oswald more powerful.
But she said none of those things. So, if she was reading from a script, if she was coerced, then why not have her say these things? This is where the conspiracy advocates stammer and stumble. "That would have been too obvious!" It's a sort of cognitive dissonance where what they say about her is in conflict with what she said or didn't say. In those situations people get stressed. And since most conpspiracy people - the ones who post here day after day - are already in a stressful state things get strange.
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In those situations people get stressed. And since most conpspiracy people - the ones who post here day after day - are already in a stressful state things get strange.
"conpspiracy"?
Seems to me...Steve M. Galbraith is the one that's stressed out. Look how he typed 'conspiracy' [a definite tell]
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Always amazes me that everything Marina says is a lie, despite mountains of proof for most of the things she talked about,
LOL.
Marina Oswald Porter's Statements of a Contradictory Nature (http://iacoletti.org/jfk/marina-contradictions.pdf)
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Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
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Also Holmes:
"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. "
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Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
What about the other officials who were at the same interrogation saying that Oswald denied going to Mexico?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg77306.html#msg77306
So who was 'inaccurate' about the Oswald denial-- Holmes--- or Bookhout, Hosty and Fritz?
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LOL.
Marina Oswald Porter's Statements of a Contradictory Nature (http://iacoletti.org/jfk/marina-contradictions.pdf)
Appreciate the research but thats completely incomprehensible on a variety of levels.
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Appreciate the research but thats completely incomprehensible on a variety of levels.
It’s an HSCA document. What do you find incomprehensible?
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It’s an HSCA document. What do you find incomprehensible?
Really. Right off the bat it is stated...Marina tells in Warren Commission testimony that she didn't like Ruth Paine too much... but then in "Marina and Lee" by PJ McMillan Marina expresses fondness for Ruth.
That's not a contradiction?
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Really. Right off the bat it is stated...Marina tells in Warren Commission testimony that she didn't like Ruth Paine too much... but then in "Marina and Lee" by PJ McMillan Marina expresses fondness for Ruth.
That's not a contradiction?
The FACT is:..... Marina completely divorced herself from "Good Samaritan Ruthie" after the assassination, and had no more contact with the good Quaker...
This is not the action of someone who values the other person's friendship.
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Always amazes me that everything Marina says is a lie, despite mountains of proof for most of the things she talked about, yet everything someone like Roger Craig says is gospel.
Marina was generally truthful, while Roger Craig had a propensity to fabricate stories ( Craig's tales usually contained much truth, but were false in the salient point. )
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The FACT is:..... Marina completely divorced herself from "Good Samaritan Ruthie" after the assassination, and had no more contact with the good Quaker...
This is not the action of someone who values the other person's friendship.
People fall out all the time. It doesn't mean one or the other are not truthful.
Marina gave a genuine excuse for why she lied the first time about Oswalds Mexico City trip. She didn't know exactly why Oswald went to Mexico City and so was unsure if she should admit he went there or not.
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People fall out all the time. It doesn't mean one or the other are not truthful.
Marina gave a genuine excuse for why she lied the first time about Oswalds Mexico City trip. She didn't know exactly why Oswald went to Mexico City and so was unsure if she should admit he went there or not.
The question that should be asked is: Why do we have to rely on testimony from Marina and others to determine that Oswald was in Mexico or not?
The Russian and Cuban Embassies and Consulates in Mexico were on 24/7 surveillance by the CIA, so why is there not one photo, not one taped phone call, of Oswald in Mexico? Do we really believe that all the CIA's systems failed at the exact same time? Really?
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The question that should be asked is: Why do we have to rely on testimony from Marina and others to determine that Oswald was in Mexico or not?
The Russian and Cuban Embassies and Consulates in Mexico were on 24/7 surveillance by the CIA, so why is there not one photo, not one taped phone call, of Oswald in Mexico? Do we really believe that all the CIA's systems failed at the exact same time? Really?
Could it be that our intel agencies didn't want us to know that Lee had been in Mexico City? I'd remind you that Hoover was so livid with FBI agent Hosty that he jerked Hosty out of the interrogation sessions of lee Oswald, because Hosty had broached the Mexico City trip in front of Captain Fritz.....
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The Russian and Cuban Embassies and Consulates in Mexico were on 24/7 surveillance by the CIA, so why is there not one photo, not one taped phone call, of Oswald in Mexico? Do we really believe that all the CIA's systems failed at the exact same time? Really?
Most likely they hid these right from the beginning because they didn't want the public finding out about their secret surveillance operations in Mexico City. The only reason we found out about the surveillance operations is because the Mystery Man photo was shown to Marguerite Oswald on Nov 23rd 1963 to see if he was an accomplice of Oswald and after seeing Ruby shoot Oswald the next day, she then thought the man looked like Ruby.
With her blabbering on to people like Mark Lane that she "was shown a photo of Ruby on Nov 23rd 1963", the Warren Commission was forced to publish the Mystery Man photo to shut up her conspiracy theories.
There was nothing mysterious about the Mexico City trip. The CIA covered up about it because they didn't want the public knowing about their surveillance operation there.
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Most likely they hid these right from the beginning because they didn't want the public finding out about their secret surveillance operations in Mexico City. The only reason we found out about the surveillance operations is because the Mystery Man photo was shown to Marguerite Oswald on Nov 23rd 1963 to see if he was an accomplice of Oswald and after seeing Ruby shoot Oswald the next day, she then thought the man looked like Ruby.
With her blabbering on to people like Mark Lane that she "was shown a photo of Ruby on Nov 23rd 1963", the Warren Commission was forced to publish the Mystery Man photo to shut up her conspiracy theories.
There was nothing mysterious about the Mexico City trip. The CIA covered up about it because they didn't want the public knowing about their surveillance operation there.
What do you mean there was nothing mysterious about the trip? Still today it nothing but a mystery.
No one paid any attention to Marguerite anyway so she prompted nothing. Who showed her a picture of some mystery man? You say there was nothing mysterious and then you mention a mystery man. Make up my mind...or go back and re-read this entire thread again.
Especially the part where J Edna Hoover writes a memo stating that Oswald had made several trips to Cuba. Did you miss that part?
Mexico City was Surveillance Central and everybody swampy in politics and the media elite knew it. The Ruskies watched us and we watched them... the entire yarn of Oswald going back to the USSR via Cuba via Mexico was a senselessly scripted spin.
Even the CIA authors who wrote it mention that a lot of it was all pure speculation anyway.
Silvia Duran gives Oswald her phone number and tells him to call her when he gets his Soviet visa.
Why?
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP10M00666R000503450002-3.pdf
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11/23/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and
the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond
to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the
Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in
Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI.
Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation.
No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case,
as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the...
Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but
the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
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11/23/63
Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?
J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and
the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond
to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the
Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in
Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI.
Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation.
No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case,
as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the...
Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but
the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
Lee Oswald denied all accusations naturally because Hoover knew that he "doesn't know anything about anything," (IOW...He's just an ignorant patsy.)
but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
Anybody want to venture a guess about what J. Edna was referring to when he said "the gun thing is a definite trend"
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Marina was generally truthful,
Marina Oswald Porter's Statements of a Contradictory Nature (http://iacoletti.org/jfk/marina-contradictions.pdf)
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Anybody want to venture a guess about what J. Edna was referring to when he said "the gun thing is a definite trend"
OK then I'll bite.
The trend being...It is pretty much what a suspect would be expected to say [denying ownership of a weapon]
Ponder this...If the Oswald went to Mexico story did not materialize as needed...then it would have been presumed that Oswald kept this alleged rifle and hauled it around where ever he went. It was dubious was it not that he somehow managed to pack 10 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag when he went to New Orleans and the rifle was rolled up somehow and placed on the bus? Then it is alleged that Oswald could entrust Ruth to convey the alleged rifle back to Texas without her knowledge. Think about it. It's silly...All laughable conjecture when one scatters out and looks at all the pieces for what they are.
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OK then I'll bite.
The trend being...It is pretty much what a suspect would be expected to say [denying ownership of a weapon]
Ponder this...If the Oswald went to Mexico story did not materialize as needed...then it would have been presumed that Oswald kept this alleged rifle and hauled it around where ever he went. It was dubious was it not that he somehow managed to pack 10 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag when he went to New Orleans and the rifle was rolled up somehow and placed on the bus? Then it is alleged that Oswald could entrust Ruth to convey the alleged rifle back to Texas without her knowledge. Think about it. It's silly...All laughable conjecture when one scatters out and looks at all the pieces for what they are.
Thanks Jerry,.... So you think that Jane Edna Hoover was alluding to Lee carrying the carcano around when he said " The gun thing , of course, is a definite trend"
I appreciate your contribution but I don't think that's what JEH was referring to.....IMO At the time JEH said this to LBJ, Hoovers cronies were working at connecting the carcano that was sent to Texas from Kleins to AJ Hidell at Lee Oswald's PO box.
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Thanks Jerry,.... So you think that Jane Edna Hoover was alluding to Lee carrying the carcano around when he said " The gun thing , of course, is a definite trend"
No...as i mentioned---
The trend being...It is pretty much what a suspect would be expected to say [denying ownership of a weapon]
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No...as i mentioned---
It is pretty much what a suspect would be expected to say [denying ownership of a weapon]
Yer right.... And that's why it is SOP for the police to confront the suspect with the murder weapon.....They know that no matter whether guilty or innocent the man will deny ownership of the weapon....but the beads of sweat and other indications will reveal the truth. A guilty man generally gives himself away by his reaction .
This is one of the major reasons that I believe Lee Oswald was innocent.... They confronted him with that carcano, and rather than say that he had never seen it before , he told them that he had seen it the day before yesterday outside Mr Truly's office. That must have been a shock to the interrogators.....
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“Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. Truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.“
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“Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. Truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.“
He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. Truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.“
N, that's not correct ....... We know for a FACT that Warren Caster testified that he had more than one rifle outside Mr Truly's office on the 1st floor of the TSBD.
And the very first entry in FBI agent James Hosty's scribbled notes which he took during the interrogation of Lee Oswald says :....
Day before yesterday Mr Truly had ( this) rifle and two other ( rifles) outside of his office on he first floor of the building.
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N, that's not correct ....... We know for a FACT that Warren Caster testified that he had more than one rifle outside Mr Truly's off on the 1st floor of the TSBD.
Yes, he said he had two rifles — a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and a .30-06 sporterized Mauser — not 3 rifles.
Incidentally....MAUSER. What a coinkydink.
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Yes, he said he had two rifles — a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and a .30-06 sporterized Mauser — not 3 rifles.
Incidentally....MAUSER. What a coinkydink.
Yes, I agree this is suspicious ..... I'm compelled to speculate that Mr Caster's mauser may have been the rifle that was presented to Weitzman when he was being interviewed by FBI agent A1bert Sawyer late Friday afternoon......
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From an earlier thread......
Glancing through the the FBI's Commission documents ...I can [so far] only find people that they had located who didn't see Oswald during the respective Mexico travel times and itinerary...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293#relPageId=500&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293#relPageId=501&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293#relPageId=502&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293#relPageId=504&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11293#relPageId=505&tab=page
On and on.
So far, one poster claims that two [nameless] Russians 'saw' Oswald in Mexico City and provides no link to this claim.
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but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.
Anybody want to venture a guess about what J. Edna was referring to when he said "the gun thing is a definite trend"
He's saying that everything comes back to the gun and Oswald being the owner of it. Even when mysterious things like Oswald not being in Mexico City possibly points to someone setting Oswald up, the ownership of the rifle keeps pointing the way towards Oswald being the gunman.
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He's saying that everything comes back to the gun and Oswald being the owner of it. Even when mysterious things like Oswald not being in Mexico City possibly points to someone setting Oswald up, the ownership of the rifle keeps pointing the way towards Oswald being the gunman.
And what exactly shows conclusively that the MC rifle found at the TSBD belonged to Oswald?
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And what exactly shows conclusively that the MC rifle found at the TSBD belonged to Oswald?
Oswalds fingerprints under the wooden stock. It shows he handled the weapon while it was in a disassembled state.
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Oswalds fingerprints under the wooden stock. It shows he handled the weapon while it was in a disassembled state.
The FBI examined the rifle within 24 hours after the murder and found no prints.
And since when is handling a weapon the same as owning it?
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Oswalds fingerprints under the wooden stock. It shows he handled the weapon while it was in a disassembled state.
Lee's finger prints were found under the wooden stock??? WOW!..... This is new info....Tell us about it.
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I think he means the partial palmprint on an index card that showed up in Washington a week after the assassination.
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Oswalds fingerprints under the wooden stock. It shows he handled the weapon while it was in a disassembled state.
There were no fingerprints found on the 6th floor rifle...not only that---there were no Oswald fingerprints found on the ammunition in the rifle--the casings on the floor or the shells that were found at the Tippit scene.
But what does all this have to do with Oswald allegedly being in Mexico City?
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Why in the would anyone believe what Marina Oswald, née Marina Nikolayevna(? ? ?) Prusakova, said about anything related to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Well we kind of have no choice. She was the only one who could give us any insight on Oswalds movements in the last 2 and a half years of his life.
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I think he means the partial palmprint on an index card that showed up in Washington a week after the assassination.
No, that's not correct..... The index card was listed as item #14 on the evidence list that listed the items of evidence that was released to the FBI at midnight Friday, 11 / 22/ 63. It is listed as " Partial palm print off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip " ( The quotation marks are on the document , which indicates the typist copied those words off the index card)Both Captain Doughty and who released the card and FBI agent Vince Drain who received that index card initialed the card at the time.
So the index card was in Washington on Saturday 11 / 23 /63....... Any other story about that card is BS......
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No, that's not correct..... The index card was listed as item #14 on the evidence list that listed the items of evidence that was released to the FBI at midnight Friday, 11 / 22/ 63.
Here we go again. There’s ZERO evidence that Walt’s list was written in 11/22 or accompanied the evidence released that night. Vince Drain, who the evidence was released to, knew nothing about the magic partial palmprint.
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Here we go again. There’s ZERO evidence that Walt’s list was written in 11/22 or accompanied the evidence released that night. Vince Drain, who the evidence was released to, knew nothing about the magic partial palmprint.
My dear Johnny, You'll need to extract your head to see the evidence. You should know by now that the DPD and the FBI were a pack of liars.
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My dear Johnny, You'll need to extract your head to see the evidence. You should know by now that the DPD and the FBI were a pack of liars.
There's no evidence to see. You made it all up.
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My dear Johnny, You'll need to extract your head to see the evidence. You should know by now that the DPD and the FBI were a pack of liars.
Agreed. But its a bit of a stretch to say that they started manufacturing evidence so soon after the assassination when they didn't really know what was going on themselves.
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And one more tidbit: Durado's name and phone number were written in Oswald's notebook/diary AND, most important, a note/piece of paper from her with her name and number was found among his possessions. She admitted to giving it to him when he visited the second time that Friday. So, if he didn't go to MC how did he get that?
Who is "Durado"? You mean Silvia Duran? I have found a facebook site [easier to download]
It would not be in Oswald's phony diary...that was created long before the alleged Mexico trip.
Concerning Silvia's "admissions"--After the Mexican Federal Police was finished with her...she would have admitted to anything.
So have a look at the video here...
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=301625911020337
I find it doubtful that Castro wanted to have Kennedy killed.
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Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on January 22, 2019, 12:39:39 AM
And one more tidbit: Durado's name and phone number were written in Oswald's notebook/diary AND, most important, a note/piece of paper from her with her name and number was found among his possessions. She admitted to giving it to him when he visited the second time that Friday. So, if he didn't go to MC how did he get that?
Is there a link to this piece of paper? I've never seen it. I thought the only place Sylvia Durans name appears was in Oswalds notebook.
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I thought the only place Sylvia Durans name appears was in Oswalds notebook.
It does. Written in with a different pen under the consulate address. See my modified #500 post.
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There were no travel restrictions, period. American citizens didn't even need a US passport to get into Mexico. All they need was a birth certificate, a certificate of naturalization or just a signed pledge saying who they were if they claimed to be American. You would know this if you had read the link to CE-2119. If you would recall, in Oswald's case he was eventually given a Cuban visa thus waiving the requirement for a Russian visa because Oswald had claimed that he wanted to go to Russia via Cuba.
Navarro is correct that in 1963..one did not need a passport to ENTER Mexico. However, one did not need all that other stuff [birth certificate etc.] either. Oscar did not supply the link to CE 2119 there so what was that?
Apparently Oswald's plans were to become some kind of hero for the Cuban Revolution by opening a chapter in NO. I don't see any evidence that as of that date he was planning to join the Cuban Revolution by either hijacking a plane or to go by way of Mexico so Oswald might have wanted a US passport to permit him to travel to the USSR of which he had expressed a desire (see CE-13). As to Oswald's new passport I don't see the significance of it's whereabouts. As far as my having ever applied for a visa I imagine my father and mother applied for some type of visa for me back in 1961. What does my having applied for a visa have to do with Oswald and his application for a Cuban visa?
So Oscar has not been to a foreign country that requires a visa...OK but why was it so apparent that Oswald wanted to become some kind of a hero? Speculation becomes truth because it sounds good.
(https://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/monthly_2020_01/453970131_63-10-10CIAcables-thebeginningofHENRYOSWALDfrom201file.thumb.jpg.30a4daa36b530b24880c15d9c9b65f98.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9sh1Pdt/oswald-letter.png) (https://ibb.co/ZWSF9bm)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7613#relPageId=51&search=ce_2119
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Quote from: Jerry Freeman on February 18, 2020
The HSCA report on Oswald and Mexico City...
409 pages
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149234#relPageId=1&tab=page
Which concludes that he was there, stayed in the hotel, signed his name.
What seems to fall short with the HSCA as well as the PCAPK as well as most here including Ted Shields is the scrutiny of the 'Oswald' signatures on the 'visa card' as well as this 'hotel register'----
(https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/Photo%204.gif)
(https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/ctka/public/2014-Josephs/Photo%205.gif)
The FBI stole 'retained' the originals of these documents only to claim that they were 'lost' or must have been destroyed when requested by archives researchers.