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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 20252 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #350 on: February 10, 2019, 06:00:54 PM »
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Slight correction Zeno, Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the sixth. From memory it took about 30 seconds or so for the elevator to go the five floors.

The timing is much later for those events than the WC proposed. The additional problem for the official "story" is that the unfinished chicken lunch was found in the SN windows by the first officers who made statements about the crime scene. Someone moved it before Fritz arrived. Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it. No wonder as for a few days it was claimed to be the assassin?s.

Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it.

Don't you think that it's odd that Williams didn't acknowledge immediately that he'd eaten his lunch there in the SE corner of the sixth floor?   

I suspect that it was the police who didn't want the public to know that Williams had been there on the sixth floor until just a few minutes before the murder.

WHY?? Would the cops endeavor to keep the public in the dark?    It seems clear that Williams had seen someone there on the sixth floor just like witnesses on the street below had seen a 175 pound white man in his mid thirties, who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing .....   But the police did not want us pissants to know that.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #350 on: February 10, 2019, 06:00:54 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #351 on: February 10, 2019, 08:41:00 PM »
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It would be nice if you could spell my name correctly. But then you aren't known for being correct, most of the time, Chapman.

No one is 'correct' to you lot unless they are CTers

You have not shown any interest in acknowledging my demonstrated understanding of satire. Yet you are worried about having your name spelled correctly.

@Newbies: Another shallow CTer observed
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:19:30 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #352 on: February 10, 2019, 09:17:00 PM »
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Did you forget what you said


LOL.  Nothing.  That's what I figured.

I wouldn't have posted the dispatch graphic if you hadn't said something inaccurate.
Why don't you actually do some work and find out for yourself where you were inaccurate...


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #352 on: February 10, 2019, 09:17:00 PM »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #353 on: February 10, 2019, 11:43:05 PM »
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Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it.

Don't you think that it's odd that Williams didn't acknowledge immediately that he'd eaten his lunch there in the SE corner of the sixth floor?   

I suspect that it was the police who didn't want the public to know that Williams had been there on the sixth floor until just a few minutes before the murder.

WHY?? Would the cops endeavor to keep the public in the dark?    It seems clear that Williams had seen someone there on the sixth floor just like witnesses on the street below had seen a 175 pound white man in his mid thirties, who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing .....   But the police did not want us pissants to know that.

What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #354 on: February 11, 2019, 12:02:33 AM »
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What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.

We know that the witnesses on the street in front of the TSBD said they saw a white man in light colored clothing moving around from place to place from about 12:15 and 12:30 ( the time of the murder) We know that Lee Oswald didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing as described by Howard Brennan.   

So it should be obvious that BRW was not alone there on the sixth floor and the man in the light colored clothing was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Bottom line... Mr Williams KNEW with 100% certainty that he had not seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor between 12:15 and 12:28.....  The question is...Did he see the thirty something year old man, who weighed 175 pounds, and was dressed in light colored khaki clothing????   

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #354 on: February 11, 2019, 12:02:33 AM »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #355 on: February 11, 2019, 12:49:12 AM »
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We know that the witnesses on the street in front of the TSBD said they saw a white man in light colored clothing moving around from place to place from about 12:15 and 12:30 ( the time of the murder) We know that Lee Oswald didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing as described by Howard Brennan.   

So it should be obvious that BRW was not alone there on the sixth floor and the man in the light colored clothing was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Bottom line... Mr Williams KNEW with 100% certainty that he had not seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor between 12:15 and 12:28.....  The question is...Did he see the thirty something year old man, who weighed 175 pounds, and was dressed in light colored khaki clothing????

Interesting to know what Williams saw. If he did see someone I think his first day statement rules out Oswald. His actions show he seems more interested in watching the motorcade "with others", even at the risk of missing it all together. He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #356 on: February 11, 2019, 01:11:40 AM »
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Interesting to know what Williams saw. If he did see someone I think his first day statement rules out Oswald. His actions show he seems more interested in watching the motorcade "with others", even at the risk of missing it all together. He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

 He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

Yes....And he left in haste,.....leaving his lunch behind... uneaten.  The photos of Williams that were taken by reporters on the street in front of the TSBD and in the back of the police car, show a very worried ( or frightened) young man.....


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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #356 on: February 11, 2019, 01:11:40 AM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #357 on: February 11, 2019, 02:26:15 AM »
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Slight correction Zeno, Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the sixth. From memory it took about 30 seconds or so for the elevator to go the five floors.

The timing is much later for those events than the WC proposed. The additional problem for the official "story" is that the unfinished chicken lunch was found in the SN windows by the first officers who made statements about the crime scene. Someone moved it before Fritz arrived. Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it. No wonder as for a few days it was claimed to be the assassin?s.


Thankyou Colin for that correction. Jarman WC testimony verifies that:

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


"A Few Minutes Later" = 2 minutes after Jarman and Norman are at their windows, having arrive there, not earlier than 12:24, even if using the West elevator. Which means 12:26 the earilest BRW arrives to their windows.


So the problem is still unresolved, how Oswald could have gone onto the floor of 6th floor and get to the SE corner window by 12:23:30 in time to have placed a box in the window so it would be recorded in the Bronson film at 12:24.


How does BRW and "the box placing person/shooter or Oswald) miss each other, traveling on the 6th floor if Bonnie Ray Williams is still at the SE window at 12:22 because if he left then, it would have only taken him 30 sec to reach either West or East Elevator, thus would have been on the 5th floor by 12:23 BEFORE Jarman and Norman even reentered the back door of the TSBD at approx 12:23 because they had just walked around the building from the front to rear, after having heard the 12:22 radio transmission or someone talking about the "news" that JFK limo was approaching


Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.





 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 03:52:59 AM by Zeon Mason »

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #357 on: February 11, 2019, 02:26:15 AM »

Online Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #358 on: February 11, 2019, 03:57:10 AM »
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Thankyou Colin for that correction. Jarman WC testimony verifies that:

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


"A Few Minutes Later" = 2 minutes after Jarman and Norman are at their windows, having arrive there, not earlier than 12:24, even if using the West elevator. Which means 12:26 the earilest BRW arrives to their windows.


So the problem is still unresolved, how Oswald could have gone onto the floor of 6th floor and get to the SE corner window by 12:23:30 in time to have placed a box in the window so it would be recorded in the Bronson film at 12:24.


How does BRW and "the box placing person/shooter or Oswald) miss each other, traveling on the 6th floor if Bonnie Ray Williams is still at the SE window at 12:22 because if he left then, it would have only taken him 30 sec to reach either West or East Elevator, thus would have been on the 5th floor by 12:23 BEFORE Jarman and Norman even reentered the back door of the TSBD at approx 12:23 because they had just walked around the building from the front to rear, after having heard the 12:22 radio transmission or someone talking about the "news" that JFK limo was approaching


Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.


Williams took the east elevator up to the 6th and down to the 5th. The east elevator could only be operated manually, ie "driven" by an operator, so once Williams had taken it up to the 6th, only someone on that floor could enter and operate it.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #359 on: February 11, 2019, 06:35:20 PM »
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What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.

we know that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion.

That's true, but at the time that BRW was at the police station,  Williams had no way of knowing that Lee Oswald was going to be charged as the lone nut assassin who fired from the SE corner window where he had eaten his lunch.    Williams apparently thought that Lee was a suspect who had been involved .... 

If BRW had known that Lee was going to be accused of firing a rifle from the sixth floor,  Would BRW have said..." Hey, I was eating my lunch on the sixth floor and I never saw Lee Oswald there while I was there". 

Personally, I believe Williams could have honestly made that statement while he was at the police station....   But at that time nobody was saying that Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald the arch villain had fired that old military rifle from  Bonnie Ray Williams lunch table.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #359 on: February 11, 2019, 06:35:20 PM »

 

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