JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Ben Beeching on January 09, 2019, 07:49:41 PM

Title: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ben Beeching on January 09, 2019, 07:49:41 PM
Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2019, 08:31:44 PM
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Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben,.... And welcome to the circus .....

when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Nobody could have traveled from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the 2nd floor Lunchroom in the time allotted for the feat by the cover up committee.....And please be advised that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside as The cover up committee proposed....The rifle had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books that was unreachable from the aisle at the top of the stairs.

My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past?

IMO Lee thought he was participating in a ruse ( hoax) in which it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK and missed . (This the basic same hoax MO that he was involved in at General Walker's house in April of 1963)  He was lead to believe that Castro would welcome him to Cuba if he had tried to kill an enemy of Castro.   Thus he would be able to spy on Cuba. 

He stayed inside out of sight where no camera could record him doing something innocuous at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....
If such a photo were taken it would have been his ticket to Castro's firing squad if the photo were seen by Castro.

Lee told his interrogators that he was on the first floor at the time that JFK passed by the tSBD and he went to the second floor for a coke and that's where he was when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him.....


Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

Because he thought that he was fleeing to Cuba...as a fugitive who had taken a shot at JFK.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Royell Storing on January 09, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 09, 2019, 08:41:10 PM
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   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.

I don't believe that Lee picked up that revolver in his boardinghouse room.....I believe that he was given the revolver after he arrived in the Theater....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ben Beeching on January 10, 2019, 05:28:15 AM
Thanks guys, really good points and interesting. I had also given some thought to the angle that he had somehow been given instructions to remain inside in the lunch room, but couldn't quite put a finger on why. Matthew Smith's "The Second Plot" neatly ties the evidence of the framing operation as well as the actual assassination together, but I didn't quite feel that he nailed it with regards to why Lee was in the lunch room.

The fake shot operation angle is a good one and I'd not thought of it in relation to the Walker angle before. This could all tie in with the "curtain rails" episode as well, as well as creating Fraser as an alibi that Lee was carrying a long package into work.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down. And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway. But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ben Beeching on January 10, 2019, 08:28:00 AM
I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Royell Storing on January 10, 2019, 03:08:30 PM
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I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit

    When those actively participating in an alleged "conspiracy" begins to approach the population of a small town You need to tap the brakes.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 10, 2019, 03:35:26 PM
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I've often thought that as well actually - and the fact he brushed past Mrs Roberts and she only saw him from the back could also suggest to me it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house, and that Lee had gone straight to the theatre after leaving the TSBD. For me, that scenario also explains the police car with "the 1 and the 0" beeping the horn outside to draw attention to itself and attempt to link Oswald with Tippit

it was in fact the impersonator that went to the boarding house,

This seems far fetched to me as there were more people living in the rooming house. An impersonator could not have have known just how many people were there and the risk of getting caught would simply have been too great. Also, how would an impersonator know where Oswald's room was?

Besides, Oswald confirmed to his interrogators that he went to the rooming house to change his clothes. If you argue that Oswald went directly to the Texas Theater you also implicitely argue that he was wearing the same shirt in the morning.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 10, 2019, 03:39:43 PM
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Thanks guys, really good points and interesting. I had also given some thought to the angle that he had somehow been given instructions to remain inside in the lunch room, but couldn't quite put a finger on why. Matthew Smith's "The Second Plot" neatly ties the evidence of the framing operation as well as the actual assassination together, but I didn't quite feel that he nailed it with regards to why Lee was in the lunch room.

The fake shot operation angle is a good one and I'd not thought of it in relation to the Walker angle before. This could all tie in with the "curtain rails" episode as well, as well as creating Fraser as an alibi that Lee was carrying a long package into work.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down. And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway. But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down.

Be alert....  You seem to be referring to the official photos that show the rifle inserted between the boxes that made up the south side of the aisle at the top of the stairs, and sme boxes immediately south of that aisle row of boxes....Those photos that show the rifle inserted between boxes are NOT authentic photos.... They are photos that were taken of the "re- created crime scene". And I'm not sure that there was actually a rifle in the photo when the shutter was snapped....  I suspect that the rifle that APPEARS to be between the boxes was actually put there photographically.  ( With the phones now available, kids perform this trick everyday)  Luckily there was a reporter named Tom Alyea who managed to film the rifle as Lt Day picked it up from THE FLOOR and his film recorded the rifle lying on it's right side with the barrel pointing east and the leather sling up.

Detective Robert Studebaker made many accurate measurements to record various evidence on the six floor.   Studebaker recorded that the rifle was lying on the floor with the barrel pointing east and the butt of the rifle about four feet from the west wall of the building.  Stubaker recorded that the rifle was 15 feet 4 inches from the north wall of the building ( The rifle was about 8 feet from the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building)   Studebaker recorded that the floor support pillars between floors,  were 12 feet from the north wall of the building.   

The rifle was on the floor beneath a pallet of boxes of books about thee feet south of the floor support pillar...IOW the rifle was about five feet from the aisle ( which was formed by the row of book boxes) Any person who would have been in the aisle and who would attempt to place an eight pound rifle on the floor beneath a pallet of book boxes would have to be about ten feet tall..... 

What I have posted is FACTUAL information... and it utterly destroys the official lie  that has Lee Oswald dashing through the area and hastily dumping the rifle as he fled.   


 And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway.
But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

I believe the rifle was carefully hidden there beneath those boxes of books after the work crew left the area and went to lunch....

You may recall that Marina said that Lee told her that he hid the rifle beneath some brush when he fired a bullet through Walker's window....

The idea behind his action was to gain enough time to escape to Cuba by way of Mexico.....He thought that tracking dogs would sniff out the rifle and then it would take a couple of days to trace the rifle to him...and by that time he would be out of the country and on his way to Cuba, to fulfill his spy mission for the US.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Hardaker on January 13, 2019, 12:22:51 AM
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Hi Ben,.... And welcome to the circus .....

when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Nobody could have traveled from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the 2nd floor Lunchroom in the time allotted for the feat by the cover up committee.....And please be advised that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside as The cover up committee proposed....The rifle had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books that was unreachable from the aisle at the top of the stairs.

My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past?

IMO Lee thought he was participating in a ruse ( hoax) in which it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK and missed . (This the basic same hoax MO that he was involved in at General Walker's house in April of 1963)  He was lead to believe that Castro would welcome him to Cuba if he had tried to kill an enemy of Castro.   Thus he would be able to spy on Cuba. 

He stayed inside out of sight where no camera could record him doing something innocuous at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....
If such a photo were taken it would have been his ticket to Castro's firing squad if the photo were seen by Castro.

Lee told his interrogators that he was on the first floor at the time that JFK passed by the tSBD and he went to the second floor for a coke and that's where he was when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him.....


Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

Because he thought that he was fleeing to Cuba...as a fugitive who had taken a shot at JFK.

Can't seriously think anyone can accept this. I mean it's just blatant guesswork. And I think there was almost 2 minutes between the fatal head shot and the meet between Baker,Truly and the gunman. So the gunman had enough time to get from the 6th to the 2nd and as the gunman was reasonable fit, he was able to appear reasonable calm.

Really have to have a more credible explanation.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Hardaker on January 13, 2019, 12:26:30 AM
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Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Now come on, be serious. The gunman left because he knew he had to get out of there. If he was just trying to get a few hours off work, why did he then go and shoot a policeman. Ruby wasn't connected to the assassination, he was just another odd ball character in this very straight forward case.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Hardaker on January 13, 2019, 12:29:59 AM
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   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.

Oh well that explains it. Oswald was bunking off work for a few hours...I just wish you had told us that 50 odd years ago.Save all stuff about LHO being the assassin. By the way why did LHO murder a policeman...was it because he was just a little bit bored and thought "I know I'll shoot a policeman"..
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 13, 2019, 01:07:29 AM
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Oh well that explains it. Oswald was bunking off work for a few hours...I just wish you had told us that 50 odd years ago.Save all stuff about LHO being the assassin. By the way why did LHO murder a policeman...was it because he was just a little bit bored and thought "I know I'll shoot a policeman"..

Pssst..Hardacher....    How does the FACT that Lee Oswald was standing on the sidewalk in front of his rooming house at the very moment that Helen Markham was watching Tippit as he talked to the man who shot him a couple of minutes later, effect your theory? 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Michael Walton on January 13, 2019, 02:07:36 PM
To the new member,

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

It's important, too, to not get too carried away with ridiculous, outlandish and plain stupid wild and crazy theories. This whole conspiracy did not have to be carried out by hundreds of people; it was not necessary to have a bevy of mad scientists performing all manner of faking the photos and films; it was not necessary for evil agents to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames from it to cover up "something" in the Z film (what that "something" was has never to this day been revealed); it was not necessary for mad doctors with scalpels at the ready to squirrel the president's body away enroute to Love, throw it down into the cargo hold, then sneak it out the back on the Andrews tarmac and onto a thrumming helicopter where all manner of body alterations took place; it was not necessary to have a LHO clone from way back in 1953, a clone that was discovered in eastern Europe no less, and this clone literally living in the real LHO's shadows for 10 years until 11/22. If you start falling for ridiculous stuff like this, then you might as well start believing the moon landings were fake.

For CTers who really and truly believe in this garbage, they simply cannot help themselves. For the Lone Nutters who, to this day, believe every single word the WC put out back in 1964, I think what it really boils down to for them is this - they simply don't like Kennedy, for whatever reason.  He was rich; he was a playboy; his Dad was crooked; he was soft on Communism; he was a Democrat; he was too liberal; he supported African Americans and their civil rights; and on and on.  In their warped way of thinking, because they simply don't like Kennedy, they absolutely refuse to open their eyes just a little bit to see the many discrepancies of the case. Put another way, If the shoe was literally on the other foot, that if it was a family member who had been murdered or one of their favorite all-time heroes, you can be sure they'd be combing through the reports looking for something contrary. But for Kennedy, in their mind, pbbtt - he doesn't "deserve" a fair and partial investigation of his murder.

I suggest you read George Michael Evica's books A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They are free online. Also read Bill Simpich's State Secret, also free online. Pat Speer also has a great website where he covers pretty much the entire case in great detail.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 13, 2019, 05:05:49 PM
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To the new member,

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

It's important, too, to not get too carried away with ridiculous, outlandish and plain stupid wild and crazy theories. This whole conspiracy did not have to be carried out by hundreds of people; it was not necessary to have a bevy of mad scientists performing all manner of faking the photos and films; it was not necessary for evil agents to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames from it to cover up "something" in the Z film (what that "something" was has never to this day been revealed); it was not necessary for mad doctors with scalpels at the ready to squirrel the president's body away enroute to Love, throw it down into the cargo hold, then sneak it out the back on the Andrews tarmac and onto a thrumming helicopter where all manner of body alterations took place; it was not necessary to have a LHO clone from way back in 1953, a clone that was discovered in eastern Europe no less, and this clone literally living in the real LHO's shadows for 10 years until 11/22. If you start falling for ridiculous stuff like this, then you might as well start believing the moon landings were fake.

For CTers who really and truly believe in this garbage, they simply cannot help themselves. For the Lone Nutters who, to this day, believe every single word the WC put out back in 1964, I think what it really boils down to for them is this - they simply don't like Kennedy, for whatever reason.  He was rich; he was a playboy; his Dad was crooked; he was soft on Communism; he was a Democrat; he was too liberal; he supported African Americans and their civil rights; and on and on.  In their warped way of thinking, because they simply don't like Kennedy, they absolutely refuse to open their eyes just a little bit to see the many discrepancies of the case. Put another way, If the shoe was literally on the other foot, that if it was a family member who had been murdered or one of their favorite all-time heroes, you can be sure they'd be combing through the reports looking for something contrary. But for Kennedy, in their mind, pbbtt - he doesn't "deserve" a fair and partial investigation of his murder.

I suggest you read George Michael Evica's books A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They are free online. Also read Bill Simpich's State Secret, also free online. Pat Speer also has a great website where he covers pretty much the entire case in great detail.

Good luck.

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting.

The words..."After the shooting" seems to connect him to that event...

A more honest presentation would be ...We simply don't know if Lee Oswald left in a hurry,  or simply walked down the street to the bus, when he left the TSBD.[/b]

You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol."

Take LHO at his word??   Do you have a recording of Lee saying any of the things that you believe he said?....

You have placed the words  "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." in quotation marks....But there is solid evidence from the detectives who searched Lee's room that that Lee changed BOTH his SHIRT and trousers, not just his trousers....and there is no evidence that he ever told anybody that he "picked up his pistol " in his room....

He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it.

Lee DID NOT say the back yard photos were fake....Captain Fritz apparently showed him a single PHOTO....( not photos) and Lee said it was a fake...

That does NOT mean that he was saying all three PHOTOS are fakes....He was referring only to the ONE photo...And there is good reason to believe that the one photo he saw was 133c...and I do believe that photo is a fake....

The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

Yes , You're right....  And it should also be obvious to you that the only people who knew that information at the time that Lee was sent to the TSBD to apply for a job by Ruth Paine, were high officials in Washington DC.... like J. Edgar Hoover.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 14, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
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Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Welcome to the forum, Ben. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC. He then proceeded to flee, staching c2766 next to the staircase on the NW corner of the TSBD behind some boxes (all he had to do was to lean over two boxes to stach the rifle. Don't believe that ridiculous theory proposed by Foghorn Leghorn). He was caught by officer Baker on the second floor lunchroom but was letgo due to one of the most unfortunate spur of the moment decisions made by a police officer.

Oswald then proceeded to flee the scene of the crime as quickly as possible without arousing suspicion. He was successful in getting away from Dealy Plaza for the time being but would have been a prime suspect soon thereafter anyway and a manhunt would eventually have caught him even if he hadn't killed Officer Tippit.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 14, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
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Welcome to the forum, Ben. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC. He then proceeded to flee, staching c2766 next to the staircase on the NW corner of the TSBD behind some boxes (all he had to do was to lean over two boxes to stach the rifle. Don't believe that ridiculous theory proposed by Foghorn Leghorn). He was caught by officer Baker on the second floor lunchroom but was letgo due to one of the most unfortunate spur of the moment decisions made by a police officer.

Oswald then proceeded to flee the scene of the crime as quickly as possible without arousing suspicion. He was successful in getting away from Dealy Plaza for the time being but would have been a prime suspect soon thereafter anyway and a manhunt would eventually have caught him even if he hadn't killed Officer Tippit.

I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers.

That's what we have come to expect from you.

Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him )

The "logic" here is very simple indeed: "Nobody saw him eat so it didn't happen"! Brilliant! 

but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC.

Where nobody saw him shoot.... so it didn't happen, right? Or is that not simple enough?

He then proceeded to flee,

Well, he left the building, but nobody saw him leave?. No idea where the "fleeing" stuff comes from

staching c2766 next to the staircase on the NW corner of the TSBD behind some boxes (all he had to do was to lean over two boxes to stach the rifle. Don't believe that ridiculous theory proposed by Foghorn Leghorn).

Instead he should just believe your theory, hey Oscar?

Oswald then proceeded to flee the scene of the crime as quickly as possible without arousing suspicion.

Yet at the same time drawing massive attention to himself as one of the few people who could not be accounted for after the shooting?. Very slik indeed!

He was successful in getting away from Dealy Plaza for the time being but would have been a prime suspect soon thereafter anyway and a manhunt would eventually have caught him even if he hadn't killed Officer Tippit.

True ?. and all that because Truly noticed he was gone. How's that for not arousing suspicion?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on January 14, 2019, 01:56:07 PM
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Oswald although very politically aware, and being a true Socialist, he did not see J.F.K as his President, but he would have welcomed him, as being the best of a bad bunch.
 He was fully aware of the sour mood in the city of hate towards the POTUS, he did not go to see the motorcade and be a hypocrite, like the KKK colleagues who worked in the TSBD.


I agree he was totally innocent
He most likely picked up the gun  at home because he expected possible civil unrest.
I think he only looked in Brewers shop window at shoes for his daughter, he made reference to her needing shoes to Robert during his visit at the D.P.D
Brewer lied by making it appear he never knew or seen Oswald before 22/11/63 when in fact he had previously sold him the very shoes he was wearing during arrest.

When did this s?ance occur in which Oswald told you his thoughts on JFK etc?  You believe he was "totally innocent" despite his rifle being found at the shooting location and his flight from the crime scene and involvement in the murder of a police officer, but you suspect Brewer, a random shoe salesman in Oak Cliff.  Wow.  It's hard to argue with logic and evidence like that.  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 14, 2019, 02:32:00 PM
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When did this s?ance occur in which Oswald told you his thoughts on JFK etc?  You believe he was "totally innocent" despite his rifle being found at the shooting location and his flight from the crime scene and involvement in the murder of a police officer, but you suspect Brewer, a random shoe salesman in Oak Cliff.  Wow.  It's hard to argue with logic and evidence like that.  Keep up the good work.
Oswald liked JFK (Marina said so; yes the same Marina that was forced to lie about him in order to incriminate him in the assassination) and the fact that he showed no interest at all in what happened to Kennedy right outside the building where he worked was just an oversight on his part. There was some commotion about a shooting or something but Oswald wanted to take the rest of the day off.

Was JFK really shot? Was he dead? Who shot him? Nevermind, Oswald wasn't interested in those matters. He so wanted to see that movie that he forget to find out whether JFK was dead and who shot him or anything else. And, oops, he forgot to buy a ticket. Because that movie was so much more interesting than all of this talk about the president getting shot.

Yes, that's believable.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 14, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
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Welcome to the forum, Ben. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC. He then proceeded to flee, staching c2766 next to the staircase on the NW corner of the TSBD behind some boxes (all he had to do was to lean over two boxes to stach the rifle. Don't believe that ridiculous theory proposed by Foghorn Leghorn). He was caught by officer Baker on the second floor lunchroom but was letgo due to one of the most unfortunate spur of the moment decisions made by a police officer.

Oswald then proceeded to flee the scene of the crime as quickly as possible without arousing suspicion. He was successful in getting away from Dealy Plaza for the time being but would have been a prime suspect soon thereafter anyway and a manhunt would eventually have caught him even if he hadn't killed Officer Tippit.

I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC.

Two TSBD employees entered the TSBD at the rear door at 12:27.... They were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman. They walked across the first floor and entered the west elevator and rode it to the fifth floor.  Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Hosty that he watched Jarman and Norman as the traveled to the elevator.   

Please explain how Lee could have watched Jarman and Norman as they traveled across the first floor if he was on the sixth floor???
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 15, 2019, 12:28:16 AM
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I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC.

Two TSBD employees entered the TSBD at the rear door at 12:27.... They were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman. They walked across the first floor and entered the west elevator and rode it to the fifth floor.  Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Hosty that he watched Jarman and Norman as the traveled to the elevator.   

Please explain how Lee could have watched Jarman and Norman as they traveled across the first floor if he was on the sixth floor???

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.  Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25.  They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor. This would take about a minute at 6ft per sec walking speed. The elevator took about 45 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position on the 5th floor around 12.26 or slightly earlier depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.

It was only after this that Williams vacated the snipers nest.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2019, 01:14:22 AM
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Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade, with times indicated, taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.  Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25.  They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor. This would take about a minute at 6ft per sec walking speed. The elevator took about 45 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position on the 5th floor around 12.26 or slightly earlier depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.

It was only after this that Williams vacated the snipers nest.

Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24 pm

How long did it take for the motorcade to travel down Main street to Houston? ...

Jarman and Norman both estimated the time at about 12:25 when they decided to go to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade...

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down  ---- Main, we (then) went back in the building, ( through the back door.)

So they stood there in front of the TSBD and heard that the parade had just arrived on Main street (12:25) then they decided to go to the fifth floor....which would ha put them on the first floor inside the TSBD about 12:26 / 12:27...

Lee Oswald saw them as they walked to the elevator and a minute or so later he went to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coca Cola....

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 15, 2019, 10:00:38 PM
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To the new member,

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

It's important, too, to not get too carried away with ridiculous, outlandish and plain stupid wild and crazy theories. This whole conspiracy did not have to be carried out by hundreds of people; it was not necessary to have a bevy of mad scientists performing all manner of faking the photos and films; it was not necessary for evil agents to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames from it to cover up "something" in the Z film (what that "something" was has never to this day been revealed); it was not necessary for mad doctors with scalpels at the ready to squirrel the president's body away enroute to Love, throw it down into the cargo hold, then sneak it out the back on the Andrews tarmac and onto a thrumming helicopter where all manner of body alterations took place; it was not necessary to have a LHO clone from way back in 1953, a clone that was discovered in eastern Europe no less, and this clone literally living in the real LHO's shadows for 10 years until 11/22. If you start falling for ridiculous stuff like this, then you might as well start believing the moon landings were fake.

For CTers who really and truly believe in this garbage, they simply cannot help themselves. For the Lone Nutters who, to this day, believe every single word the WC put out back in 1964, I think what it really boils down to for them is this - they simply don't like Kennedy, for whatever reason.  He was rich; he was a playboy; his Dad was crooked; he was soft on Communism; he was a Democrat; he was too liberal; he supported African Americans and their civil rights; and on and on.  In their warped way of thinking, because they simply don't like Kennedy, they absolutely refuse to open their eyes just a little bit to see the many discrepancies of the case. Put another way, If the shoe was literally on the other foot, that if it was a family member who had been murdered or one of their favorite all-time heroes, you can be sure they'd be combing through the reports looking for something contrary. But for Kennedy, in their mind, pbbtt - he doesn't "deserve" a fair and partial investigation of his murder.

I suggest you read George Michael Evica's books A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They are free online. Also read Bill Simpich's State Secret, also free online. Pat Speer also has a great website where he covers pretty much the entire case in great detail.

Good luck.

We don't know if he even walked down the street as the WC failed to offer one witness who saw LHO walk the seven blocks that they claimed he *probably* did.

Meanwhile, there are multiple witnesses for LHO getting into a car.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 15, 2019, 10:40:10 PM
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Two TSBD employees entered the TSBD at the rear door at 12:27.... They were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman. They walked across the first floor and entered the west elevator and rode it to the fifth floor. Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Hosty that he watched Jarman and Norman as the traveled to the elevator.   

You made that up. There is no record of Oswald ever having made that statement.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2019, 10:50:27 PM
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We don't know if he even walked down the street as the WC failed to offer one witness who saw LHO walk the seven blocks that they claimed he *probably* did.

Meanwhile, there are multiple witnesses for LHO getting into a car.

Nah, just one
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 15, 2019, 10:57:07 PM
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Nah, just one

You are still clueless about the evidence, huh? It makes it easier to endorse a falsehood I guess.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2019, 11:02:54 PM
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You are still clueless about the evidence, huh? It makes it easier to endorse a falsehood I guess.

You were driving the cab?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 15, 2019, 11:13:24 PM
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You were driving the cab?

Learn the evidence. No one saw LHO walking 7 blocks, but multiple witnesses saw him getting into a car.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 15, 2019, 11:23:12 PM
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Learn the evidence. No one saw LHO walking 7 blocks, but multiple witnesses saw him getting into a car.

Name the 'multiple' witnesses
And where did your 'Oswald' wind up?




Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 15, 2019, 11:59:12 PM
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You made that up. There is no record of Oswald ever having made that statement.

Common sense for a rational person is all that is needed...  Lee told the interrogators that he saw those guys come in...That's all that's really necessary...  because Jarman and Norman told the interrogators that they did in fact come in through the back door and walk to the west elevator.

And even a elementary school kid can deduce that If Lee saw Jarman and Norman "come in" then he had to be on the first floor just as he said he was....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 16, 2019, 04:06:16 AM
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You made that up. There is no record of Oswald ever having made that statement.

A question for you Tim......

Here is Fritz's relevant WC testimony.

Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.

Do you believe that Oswald ever made any statement to that effect to Fritz?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 16, 2019, 04:58:18 AM
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A question for you Tim......

Here is Fritz's relevant WC testimony.

Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.

Do you believe that Oswald ever made any statement to that effect to Fritz?

Yes, I do believe that he made that statement in one of the interview sessions. Secret Service Agent Thomas Kelley also heard him say it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29105#relPageId=1&tab=page
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 16, 2019, 07:37:25 AM
So you believe that Oswald tried to create an alibi by identifying two individuals in the "lunchroom" with him. These two were directly below the SN and their conversations likely audible to a 6th floor assassin in the SE window.

So in your view an innocent pleading assassin Oswald was some kind of moron, one whose best explanation was to include individuals who could easily prove him to be a liar. Possible that he even knew they were not able to be even in the lunchroom at the time of the shots. This was after he was aware some of his fellow workmates were at DPDHQ with him and being questioned.

What a cunning plan.....


There were others present aside from Kelley......what did they say? This was afterall a key piece of the investigation......the accused's alibi. He was asked on more than one occasion I believe.

Wonder if there was any confusion about "lunchroom" by those present at the interrogations. Did those present have a good idea of the layout of the building at the time and the workers lunch habits?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 16, 2019, 01:42:36 PM
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I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC.

Two TSBD employees entered the TSBD at the rear door at 12:27.... They were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman. They walked across the first floor and entered the west elevator and rode it to the fifth floor.  Lee Oswald told Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Hosty that he watched Jarman and Norman as the traveled to the elevator.   

Please explain how Lee could have watched Jarman and Norman as they traveled across the first floor if he was on the sixth floor???


The timeline for Norman's and Jarman's presence on the first floor is sketchy. Harold Norman said on his 12/4/1963

 " About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street."

Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate his chicken lunch on the 6th floor and then "went down to the fifth floor, where he joined Norman and Jarman at approximately 12:20 PM." WR, page 68

Junior Jarman testified that Bonnie Ray Williams joined both he and Norman a few minutes after they had arrived at the fifth floor. WCH, Vol III, page 203

The best estimate was arrived at by the WC and places all three on the fifth floor at approximately 12:20 p. m." WR, page 68

As to Oswald's recollection on the first day of interrogation he said nothing about eating lunch with anybody. It was during the second day interrogation that Oswald claimed to Fritz to have eaten lunch with Junior and "a little short man whose name he did not know,". This is also the same version given by SSA Kelley in his report. (WR, page 626) In Brookhouts version (CE - 1988) Oswald's says to Fritz that "he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book depository, alone,  but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period".

In Postal Inspectors H. D. Holmes version of his interrogation of Oswald in the morning of 11/24 Oswald does not even say he ate lunch.

"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." (here Oswald is probably referring to Givens). Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out of the front door of the building. WR, page 636.

As can be seen Oswald changed his story from eating lunch alone in the first floor lunchroom on the first day of interrogation to eating lunch with Junior and probably Norman on the second to actually incriminating himself by admitting he walked down to the second floor after the assassination. Junior Jarman denied having eaten lunch with Oswald. This Oswald alibi of having eaten lunch with them can be explain by the probability of Oswald hearing Junior speaking to Norman as he was sitting in the 6th floor SN. The probability of this is further enhanced by BRW's testimony that the reason he went to down to the fifth floor after eating his lunch on the sixth floor was that he heard walking and the opening of windows just below him.


 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 16, 2019, 01:45:58 PM
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Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.  Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25.  They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor. This would take about a minute at 6ft per sec walking speed. The elevator took about 45 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position on the 5th floor around 12.26 or slightly earlier depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.

It was only after this that Williams vacated the snipers nest.

It was only after this that Williams vacated the snipers nest.

So, your claim is that BRW was the shooter?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 16, 2019, 02:00:24 PM
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It was only after this that Williams vacated the snipers nest.

So, your claim is that BRW was the shooter?

No. Williams was on the 5th floor at the time of the shots. He lied and deceived repeatedly about his actions and times after the assassination. So did Jarman and Norman. This is old news. The real question is why the need for them to lie once lone nut Oswald was captured before 2pm and dead by Sunday morning.

The timing of their movements can be verified by Norman?s reference to the position of the motorcade and Jarman?s estimate. Also Truly testifies to seeing them depart with Givens the return to enter the building. You have to factor the time taken for them to travel to the 5th floor and be in position before Williams can descend. Williams lunch was originally found on boxes in the SN btw. He probably the saw the assassin prior to departing.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2019, 03:35:55 PM
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No. Williams was on the 5th floor at the time of the shots. He lied and deceived repeatedly about his actions and times after the assassination. So did Jarman and Norman. This is old news. The real question is why the need for them to lie once lone nut Oswald was captured before 2pm and dead by Sunday morning.

The timing of their movements can be verified by Norman?s reference to the position of the motorcade and Jarman?s estimate. Also Truly testifies to seeing them depart with Givens the return to enter the building. You have to factor the time taken for them to travel to the 5th floor and be in position before Williams can descend. Williams lunch was originally found on boxes in the SN btw. He probably the saw the assassin prior to departing.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html)

The timing of their movements can be verified by Norman?s reference to the position of the motorcade and Jarman?s estimate.

Since J&N reported that they heard the police radio announce that the Motorcade was approaching Main Street just prior to their decision to go to the fifth floor, we have a time stamp of !2:25  for that transmission....which means they entered the back door of the TSBD at about 12:26 ....  And Lee Oswald said that he saw them come in and identified them. He said that he was eating lunch at the time, He did NOT say that they were also eating lunch or that they ate lunch with him.   

Also Truly testifies to seeing them depart with Givens the return to enter the building.

There's no doubt that J&N left the front of the TSBD at about 12:25 and traveled to the fifth floor where they were photographed by Tom Dillard during the shooting at 12:30. 

  You have to factor the time taken for them to travel to the 5th floor and be in position before Williams can descend. Williams lunch was originally found on boxes in the SN btw. He probably the saw the assassin prior to departing.

Colin, there is no way to verify Williams tale.....  We simply don't know where he was prior to joining J&N on the fifth floor...

For all we know...Williams could have been on the fifth floor at the time J&N arrived.....  He may have stayed out of sight until he could confirm the identities of the person who had just brought the elevator to the fifth floor....

I strongly suspect that Wlliams was scared stiff.... and he was lying about his movements between 12:00 and 12 :28.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
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So you believe that Oswald tried to create an alibi by identifying two individuals in the "lunchroom" with him. These two were directly below the SN and their conversations likely audible to a 6th floor assassin in the SE window.

So in your view an innocent pleading assassin Oswald was some kind of moron, one whose best explanation was to include individuals who could easily prove him to be a liar. Possible that he even knew they were not able to be even in the lunchroom at the time of the shots. This was after he was aware some of his fellow workmates were at DPDHQ with him and being questioned.

What a cunning plan.....


There were others present aside from Kelley......what did they say? This was afterall a key piece of the investigation......the accused's alibi. He was asked on more than one occasion I believe.

Wonder if there was any confusion about "lunchroom" by those present at the interrogations. Did those present have a good idea of the layout of the building at the time and the workers lunch habits?

 (His) best explanation was to include individuals who could easily prove him to be a liar.

Indeed.... Lee would have had to have been a utter idiot to offer such an alibi....   He told the interrogators that he had seen J&N enter the building while he was in the first floor lunchroom....  Obviously Lee KNEW ( in relation to the shooting) what time that was or he wouldn't have offered it as an alibi..... He knew that J&N entered the building just a couple of minutes prior to JFK passing by the building.

Lee knew full well that the police would check his story by asking J &N to tell them where they were at the time period involved.
(12:25 to 12:30) And He was right... The police DID question J & N and they absolutely KNEW that Lee was NOT on the sixth floor at the time JFK was shot to death....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 16, 2019, 04:13:30 PM
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No. Williams was on the 5th floor at the time of the shots. He lied and deceived repeatedly about his actions and times after the assassination. So did Jarman and Norman. This is old news. The real question is why the need for them to lie once lone nut Oswald was captured before 2pm and dead by Sunday morning.

The timing of their movements can be verified by Norman?s reference to the position of the motorcade and Jarman?s estimate. Also Truly testifies to seeing them depart with Givens the return to enter the building. You have to factor the time taken for them to travel to the 5th floor and be in position before Williams can descend. Williams lunch was originally found on boxes in the SN btw. He probably the saw the assassin prior to departing.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.0.html)

Well, you posted that Williams left the SN, which was on the sixth floor. Dillard Exhibit C would blow that theory to smithereens. It also appears that you have unwittingly answered your own question as to why would Williams, Jarman and Norman would have to lie.  They didn't! You have taken bits of confused and conflicting testimony of three individuals and made it into a sinister conspiracy without motive. Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2019, 05:45:24 PM
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Well, you posted that Williams left the SN, which was on the sixth floor. Dillard Exhibit C would blow that theory to smithereens. It also appears that you have unwittingly answered your own question as to why would Williams, Jarman and Norman would have to lie.  They didn't! You have taken bits of confused and conflicting testimony of three individuals and made it into a sinister conspiracy without motive. Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.

CTers just don't quite get it.

Some of the inhabitants of Jonestown "didn't quite get it" either, Mr. Narvarroo..... And they refused to drink the Kool-Aide.



Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 16, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
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Well, you posted that Williams left the SN, which was on the sixth floor. Dillard Exhibit C would blow that theory to smithereens. It also appears that you have unwittingly answered your own question as to why would Williams, Jarman and Norman would have to lie.  They didn't! You have taken bits of confused and conflicting testimony of three individuals and made it into a sinister conspiracy without motive. Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.

You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 16, 2019, 10:44:44 PM
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Take three witness testimonies of an event and you'll likely get three different versions of that event. I'm sure this has been repeated a million times but it's a truism that has to be brought into the discussion because CTers just don't quite get it.

But somehow you assume that three different versions of what was said during interrogations must all be accurate and therefore Oswald "changed his story".  Interesting...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 16, 2019, 10:50:36 PM
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Name the 'multiple' witnesses

Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 16, 2019, 11:07:39 PM
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Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Back at ya, tough guy
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)


Roger Craig
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Marvin Robinson
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Helen Forrest
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Roy Cooper
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

James Pennington
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 16, 2019, 11:12:47 PM
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Meanwhile, there are multiple witnesses for LHO getting into a car.

Nah, just one

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 16, 2019, 11:29:55 PM
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The timeline for Norman's and Jarman's presence on the first floor is sketchy. Harold Norman said on his 12/4/1963

 " About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street."



 

So lets look at what Harold Norman provided........all of it.

Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

The Secret Service interviewed Norman in the first week of December.

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

Secret Service Report extracted from CD87 states that about 12.15pm "....he and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, both employees of the depository, went to the fifth floor to watch the Presidential motorcade pass by."

March 18 FBI Interview

Just before he testified before the Warren Commission Norman provided a brief statement. It added little to his story. He simply stateed he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appears that he felt the shots occurred at this time. Again there was no indication that Williams had joined them at the windows just before the motorcade from the floor that the shots came from minutes later.

March 24 Warren Commission Testimony

When did they leave the front of the building to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Note that for the first time, 4 months after the shooting, he states that only he and Jarman ascended to the 5th floor.

According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 16, 2019, 11:30:27 PM
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Nah, just one


(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

 :'(

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 16, 2019, 11:48:02 PM
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You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

IOW...The official story is obviously BS!!     You're right Mr Crow.... Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 16, 2019, 11:51:19 PM
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:'(

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 16, 2019, 11:57:18 PM
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Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Point out where I ever said I was right about the evidence
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 17, 2019, 12:02:56 AM
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The timeline for Norman's and Jarman's presence on the first floor is sketchy.
 

Now lets look at Jarman's various submissions.

November 23 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and Oswald alone. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them. Note that on this same day, Oswald has supposedly claimed under interrogation that Jarman and Norman had eaten lunch with them.

FBI Interview Nov 24
Jarman was interviewed the following day by the FBI and a statement produced. This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information provided largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. His recall of his positioning and co-workers at the fifth floor windows is accurate compared to the imprecise descriptions of positioning provided by Bonnie Ray. There was no mention of the ascent prior to the shots.

Secret Service Interview December 2nd
Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December and his statement formed part of WC document 87. "After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor".

January 14 FBI
Jarman was interviewed by the FBI in mid-January and in this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon.

"He said that he and Harold "Hank" Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were all employed at the TSBD at Dallas in November 22, 1963. He said that he and the other two boys ate lunch on the first floor about noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25 pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade. He said they stayed there until they heard the sound of the shots; then they went downstairs. He said Ray and Norman were with him all the time he was on the first floor and they did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time between 12.00 noon until they returned to the first floor after the shooting."

This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Note the time is 12.25.....pretty close to the time from Norman's final account he but tries once again to includes Williams with them from noon onwards.

March 24 WC Testimony
Jarman now meets up with Norman his way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and stood west of the steps on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD. He originally added Williams to that group but his memory is quickly "corrected" by Joseph Ball. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him "(they) came out later". I assume was he referring to Shelley as well? If Williams joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor before 12.15, Truly, Campbell and Lovelady were already outside minutes before this time.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.

Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?




Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 17, 2019, 01:48:47 AM
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Yes, I do believe that he made that statement in one of the interview sessions. Secret Service Agent Thomas Kelley also heard him say it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29105#relPageId=1&tab=page

Let's tackle this one........

Here is a picture of the notes attributed to Fritz that relate to the alibi and Jarman and Norman.

(https://i.ibb.co/hZFKC88/fritz-notes.jpg)

Note the (3) in the top right. This indicates it is page 3 of his notes and likely refers not to the first interrogation session on the 22nd but to the one the next day when Kelly was present (as indicated by Tim). We see "morning 23rd" at top that tends to confirm this.

It appears to have....
"11-21-63 say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"

Not sure why Fritz wrote 11-21-63 but it suggests that Oswald said something to the effect that he was eating his lunch and noticed Jarman and Norman "come in". One might speculate that he may have been asked that while he was eating did he notice anyone else......

First we need to know the sequence of events and discover what all the observers recalled about the "eating lunch" alibi. From Will Fritz WC testimony we get the following.

Joseph Ball asks what Fritz tried to discover on the day of the assassination. I think this refers to the intial interrogation session in the afternoon following his capture. Makes sense for Fritz to ask him where he was. In the initial session FBI agents  Bookout and Hosty were also present.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there is this exchange that relates to the Baker encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

So it seems we have a confused impression during his testimony. One that he was eating his lunch with others in the lunchroom (this would be the domino room on the first floor) and yet just a minute later he was alone eating his lunch with a coke when Baker confronts him in the second floor lunchroom.

Ball asks him about the interrogation on the 23rd when Kelley was present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

It seems Ball is particularly keen to get Fritz to say that Oswald was eating his lunch with the other two. One assumes that this would be a most important detail to clarify at the time of the investigation, when Oswald was alive, and yet it appears it was not taken particularly seriously as nowhere does it appear that Jarman and Norman are asked specifically about this claim by the DPD, FBI or SS. Norman is not even questioned until the following Tuesday....48 hours after the death of the suspected assassin.

Here is Hosty's WC testimony about the alibi......

"Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building."

Nothing about eating lunch with others......seems this information was not provided on the 22nd at all. A report (CE136B page 2) written by Fritz tends to confirm this and states......
 
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor."

Nothing about Jarman and Norman at that time.

Bookout was present on the 22nd and 23rd interviews and provided the following two reports one dated the22nd and the other the 23rd. Both were dictated on November 24th.

In the first he states that Oswald got his coke from the second floor and after the confrontation with Truly and Baker went down to the first floor and ate his lunch in the lunchroom, when outside and stood around for a five or ten minutes with employees including Bill Shelley and then went home.
 
The second report, presumably referring to the interrogation that occurred on Nov 23 says;

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten luch in the lunch room at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possible one of these employees was called "junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognise. He stated his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple...."

Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 17, 2019, 03:52:21 AM
And for anyone wishing to evoke the distinct recollections of Harry Holmes who attended the final interrogation session.......we have this as an example. Was Holmes' memory as good or better than Fritz or Kelley?

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Holmes attributes a direct quote to Oswald that makes no sense to anyone who knows how those elevators operated. Neither could be "sent up". The east elevator was totally manually operated by whoever was in the elevator and the west elevator could be "called" by someone on another floor but only if both gates were closed. It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2019, 06:11:35 PM
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Let's tackle this one........

Here is a picture of the notes attributed to Fritz that relate to the alibi and Jarman and Norman.

(https://i.ibb.co/hZFKC88/fritz-notes.jpg)

Note the (3) in the top right. This indicates it is page 3 of his notes and likely refers not to the first interrogation session on the 22nd but to the one the next day when Kelly was present (as indicated by Tim). We see "morning 23rd" at top that tends to confirm this.

It appears to have....
"11-21-63 say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"

Not sure why Fritz wrote 11-21-63 but it suggests that Oswald said something to the effect that he was eating his lunch and noticed Jarman and Norman "come in". One might speculate that he may have been asked that while he was eating did he notice anyone else......

First we need to know the sequence of events and discover what all the observers recalled about the "eating lunch" alibi. From Will Fritz WC testimony we get the following.

Joseph Ball asks what Fritz tried to discover on the day of the assassination. I think this refers to the intial interrogation session in the afternoon following his capture. Makes sense for Fritz to ask him where he was. In the initial session FBI agents  Bookout and Hosty were also present.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there is this exchange that relates to the Baker encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

So it seems we have a confused impression during his testimony. One that he was eating his lunch with others in the lunchroom (this would be the domino room on the first floor) and yet just a minute later he was alone eating his lunch with a coke when Baker confronts him in the second floor lunchroom.

Ball asks him about the interrogation on the 23rd when Kelley was present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

It seems Ball is particularly keen to get Fritz to say that Oswald was eating his lunch with the other two. One assumes that this would be a most important detail to clarify at the time of the investigation, when Oswald was alive, and yet it appears it was not taken particularly seriously as nowhere does it appear that Jarman and Norman are asked specifically about this claim by the DPD, FBI or SS. Norman is not even questioned until the following Tuesday....48 hours after the death of the suspected assassin.

Here is Hosty's WC testimony about the alibi......

"Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building."

Nothing about eating lunch with others......seems this information was not provided on the 22nd at all. A report (CE136B page 2) written by Fritz tends to confirm this and states......
 
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor."

Nothing about Jarman and Norman at that time.

Bookout was present on the 22nd and 23rd interviews and provided the following two reports one dated the22nd and the other the 23rd. Both were dictated on November 24th.

In the first he states that Oswald got his coke from the second floor and after the confrontation with Truly and Baker went down to the first floor and ate his lunch in the lunchroom, when outside and stood around for a five or ten minutes with employees including Bill Shelley and then went home.
 
The second report, presumably referring to the interrogation that occurred on Nov 23 says;

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten luch in the lunch room at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possible one of these employees was called "junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognise. He stated his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple...."

Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask?
   ..... "ASK"....  I believe that was Fritz reminding himself to ask and verify the account that Lee had related to him...

I believe you'll find that there is evidence that Captain Fritz sent at least one of his detectives over to the TSBD to "ASK" about what Lee Oswald had told him....   

although it's not spelled out in clear detail, if you read Junior Jarman's and Harold Norman's testimony you'll discern that they had been questioned by the DPD about Lee Oswald's account ( alibi) ...

I'll see if I can find the testimony in which they reveal that the DPD had asked them about their movements that day....

In the meanwhile please note that Jarman during his question before the WC on March 24, has amazing recall of an event that happened before the shooting....  How did he remember all those insignificant tiny details 4 months after the fact???

I believe the reason he was able to recall the trivia was because he'd been closely questioned about his actions just before the shooting....   The fact hat he was questioned required that he recall the event .... He was probably asked about his ( and Norman's) actions just a couple of hours after the shooting.....  And that cemented the event in his mind....

The same is true for Harold Norman...  Who did not have a high IQ.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2019, 06:46:44 PM
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If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask?
   ..... "ASK"....  I believe that was Fritz reminding himself to ask and verify the account that Lee had related to him...

I believe you'll find that there is evidence that Captain Fritz sent at least one of his detectives over to the TSBD to "ASK" about what Lee Oswald had told him....   

although it's not spelled out in clear detail, if you read Junior Jarman's and Harold Norman's testimony you'll discern that they had been questioned by the DPD about Lee Oswald's account ( alibi) ...

I'll see if I can find the testimony in which they reveal that the DPD had asked them about their movements that day....

In the meanwhile please note that Jarman during his question before the WC on March 24, has amazing recall of an event that happened before the shooting....  How did he remember all those insignificant tiny details 4 months after the fact???

I believe the reason he was able to recall the trivia was because he'd been closely questioned about his actions just before the shooting....   The fact hat he was questioned required that he recall the event .... He was probably asked about his ( and Norman's) actions just a couple of hours after the shooting.....  And that cemented the event in his mind....

The same is true for Harold Norman...  Who did not have a high IQ.....

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?
Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.
Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2019, 07:47:28 PM
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And for anyone wishing to evoke the distinct recollections of Harry Holmes who attended the final interrogation session.......we have this as an example. Was Holmes' memory as good or better than Fritz or Kelley?

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Holmes attributes a direct quote to Oswald that makes no sense to anyone who knows how those elevators operated. Neither could be "sent up". The east elevator was totally manually operated by whoever was in the elevator and the west elevator could be "called" by someone on another floor but only if both gates were closed. It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

 It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

I don't attach any great significance to this....   However I do know that an elevator could be sent to a different floor  with out anybody aboard the elevator...

Some of those old elevators could be sent off to another floor by pressing a different floor number while the door was open.....Then when the door (or gate) closed the elevator would go to the floor as if someone was on the elevator and had pressed the button....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 17, 2019, 09:37:46 PM
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It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

I don't attach any great significance to this....   However I do know that an elevator could be sent to a different floor  with out anybody aboard the elevator...

Some of those old elevators could be sent off to another floor by pressing a different floor number while the door was open.....Then when the door (or gate) closed the elevator would go to the floor as if someone was on the elevator and had pressed the button....

The point being of this post was to illustrate how a direct quote could be attributed when recalling an event that likely was never phrased that way. The intent could be similar but it is to illustrate how the observation by Kelly that Oswald ate his lunch with Jarman and Norman is likely a misunderstanding of what Oswald actually said. As with Bookout, "walking through" the lunchroom makes no sense given the layout, but "walking by" does.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 17, 2019, 09:42:25 PM
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If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask?
   ..... "ASK"....  I believe that was Fritz reminding himself to ask and verify the account that Lee had related to him...

I believe you'll find that there is evidence that Captain Fritz sent at least one of his detectives over to the TSBD to "ASK" about what Lee Oswald had told him....   

although it's not spelled out in clear detail, if you read Junior Jarman's and Harold Norman's testimony you'll discern that they had been questioned by the DPD about Lee Oswald's account ( alibi) ...

I'll see if I can find the testimony in which they reveal that the DPD had asked them about their movements that day....

In the meanwhile please note that Jarman during his question before the WC on March 24, has amazing recall of an event that happened before the shooting....  How did he remember all those insignificant tiny details 4 months after the fact???

I believe the reason he was able to recall the trivia was because he'd been closely questioned about his actions just before the shooting....   The fact hat he was questioned required that he recall the event .... He was probably asked about his ( and Norman's) actions just a couple of hours after the shooting.....  And that cemented the event in his mind....

The same is true for Harold Norman...  Who did not have a high IQ.....

Any yet his amazing recall changed during his WC testimony.......suddenly Williams was no longer along for the ride up the elevator. Both Norman and Jarman repeatedly claimed he was with them in statements and interviews over a period of 4 months then it all changed. What motivation did they have to do so?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 17, 2019, 11:20:33 PM
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The point being of this post was to illustrate how a direct quote could be attributed when recalling an event that likely was never phrased that way. The intent could be similar but it is to illustrate how the observation by Kelly that Oswald ate his lunch with Jarman and Norman is likely a misunderstanding of what Oswald actually said. As with Bookout, "walking through" the lunchroom makes no sense given the layout, but "walking by" does.

FBI Agent  Bookout's statement that Lee said that he witnessed Jarman and Norman.... "walking through" the lunchroom makes no sense given the layout, but "walking by" does.

That's absolutely right and reasonable....  The 1st floor lunchroom had windows on the east and north sides of the room.....And Jarman and Norman would have walked by those windows as they traveled to the back door of the TSBD as they were on their way to the fifth floor at about 12:26/ 12:27.

And Lee Oswald couldn't have avoided noticing them as they "walked by"
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 18, 2019, 03:59:49 AM
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FBI Agent  Bookout's statement that Lee said that he witnessed Jarman and Norman.... "walking through" the lunchroom makes no sense given the layout, but "walking by" does.

That's absolutely right and reasonable....  The 1st floor lunchroom had windows on the east and north sides of the room.....And Jarman and Norman would have walked by those windows as they traveled to the back door of the TSBD as they were on their way to the fifth floor at about 12:26/ 12:27.

And Lee Oswald couldn't have avoided noticing them as they "walked by"



And so trying to use them by way of an alibi if he knew they were not near the lunchroom at that time makes no sense. Any fool would know the police would check and the alibi would easily be shown to be a lie. Especially as he had not mentioned the day before. in that interrogation he was eating alone, why now try to change to be eating with those two. Makes no sense.

However if the conversation went like this.....

Fritz: Lee you told me you were in the lunchroom........did you see anyone else when you were in there who might be able to verify your presence?

Oswald: Well the only other employees I saw were Junior and another short guy pass just before the commotion.

Kelley mistakenly assumes he meant he was eating lunch with the. Simple misunderstanding.

The real issue here is that the have 2 key witnesses who were prepared to lie about the presence of someone who was not in there presence. Who they also lie about someone they had seen but claimed not to? Especially if that someone was a dead commie accused Presidential assassin.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 18, 2019, 04:12:47 AM
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So you believe that Oswald tried to create an alibi by identifying two individuals in the "lunchroom" with him. These two were directly below the SN and their conversations likely audible to a 6th floor assassin in the SE window.

So in your view an innocent pleading assassin Oswald was some kind of moron, one whose best explanation was to include individuals who could easily prove him to be a liar. Possible that he even knew they were not able to be even in the lunchroom at the time of the shots. This was after he was aware some of his fellow workmates were at DPDHQ with him and being questioned.

What a cunning plan.....


Colin,

 Yes, I believe that Oswald was some kind of a moron. He said numerous things in those interviews/interrogations that were easily proven to be lies.

Quote
There were others present aside from Kelley......what did they say? This was afterall a key piece of the investigation......the accused's alibi. He was asked on more than one occasion I believe.

Wonder if there was any confusion about "lunchroom" by those present at the interrogations. Did those present have a good idea of the layout of the building at the time and the workers lunch habits?

Officers E.L. Boyd and R.M. Sims were present at that interview. Neither of them said anything relevant to the question at hand. FBI Agents Hosty and Bookhout were present at one of the first day interviews. They reported that Oswald claimed that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and was on that floor when the President went by.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 18, 2019, 04:17:26 AM
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Colin,

 Yes, I believe that Oswald was some kind of a moron. He said numerous things in those interviews/interrogations that were easily proven to be lies.

Officers E.L. Boyd and R.M. Sims were present at that interview. Neither of them said anything relevant to the question at hand. FBI Agents Hosty and Bookhout were present at one of the first day interviews. They reported that Oswald claimed that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and was on that floor when the President went by.

I?ve since updated Bookout's reports in a more extensive later post. He was the one who used the term "passed through". Hosty was excluded from all bar the first interview. Some present at the interrogations have a different view of Oswald?s intellect than you. He only provided answers in a very careful fashion.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 18, 2019, 05:57:34 AM
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Officers E.L. Boyd and R.M. Sims were present at that interview. Neither of them said anything relevant to the question at hand. FBI Agents Hosty and Bookhout were present at one of the first day interviews. They reported that Oswald claimed that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and was on that floor when the President went by.

Officers Sims and Boyd made Fritz look like a genius......no notes or memory of much at all......then again they were merely detectives involved in the murder of the President....the accused supposed alibi is of little significance to Dallas detectives it seems.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 18, 2019, 07:26:43 AM
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Officers Sims and Boyd made Fritz look like a genius......no notes or memory of much at all......then again they were merely detectives involved in the murder of the President....the accused supposed alibi is of little significance to Dallas detectives it seems.

He doesn't have an alibi. Nobody placed him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. If he really did say that he saw Jarman and Norman walk through, which I assume that's what you believe, then that still doesn't place him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. From the sniper's nest window, he would have seen those two standing out on the sidewalk and then he would have seen them as they headed towards the Southeast corner of the building. Then a few minutes later he would have heard them on the floor below as they chatted at the open windows. He would have known that they had passed through the first floor near the Domino room on their way to the elevators.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 18, 2019, 08:05:21 AM
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He doesn't have an alibi. Nobody placed him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. If he really did say that he saw Jarman and Norman walk through, which I assume that's what you believe, then that still doesn't place him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. From the sniper's nest window, he would have seen those two standing out on the sidewalk and then he would have seen them as they headed towards the Southeast corner of the building. Then a few minutes later he would have heard them on the floor below as they chatted at the open windows. He would have known that they had passed through the first floor near the Domino room on their way to the elevators.

It is not me who has the belief Tim. I do not know who saw what. We only have others impressions of what was said under interrogation by the accused. We do have signed statements from key individuals that are plain lies....something that was ignored, why?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 18, 2019, 03:50:21 PM
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He doesn't have an alibi. Nobody placed him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. If he really did say that he saw Jarman and Norman walk through, which I assume that's what you believe, then that still doesn't place him on the first floor at the time of the shooting. From the sniper's nest window, he would have seen those two standing out on the sidewalk and then he would have seen them as they headed towards the Southeast corner of the building. Then a few minutes later he would have heard them on the floor below as they chatted at the open windows. He would have known that they had passed through the first floor near the Domino room on their way to the elevators.

He doesn't have an alibi. Nobody placed him on the first floor at the time of the shooting.

Wow! Your desperation is hangin out a country mile, Mr Snickerson...."Nobody placed him on the first floor at the time of the shooting."

He provided an alibi....That is a fact....    Whether it is true is the question....

At the time Lee told the interrogators that he witnessed Junior Jarman and Harold Norman "come in" he may not even have realized that he was providing an alibi.....  He may have simply been recalling his where abouts during the period that Fritz was inquiring about...
Where were you when the parade passed by the building?    Lee's reply..." I was in the first floor lunchroom at that time"    Was anybody there with you at that time?...."No, but I recall two  colored employees came in the back door while I was in the lunchroom"....

Question for you Timmy....  Can you provide any evidence that Lee knew that the police were treating the sixth floor as the  site where the shots had been fired from?   There is some evidence that he was astonished to learn that the TSBD was the suspected site from which the shooting had occurred.

A map had turned up among his possessions, and the map had several locations on it marked by an "X"  ....An "X" was on the map on the corner of Houston and Elm ( the TSBD)   Fritz wanted to know what that "X" indicated, and displayed the map to Lee Oswald...Lee deduced that Fritz thought the shots had came from the TSBD...and he said in sudden realization... something like... "Wait a minute....Do tell me that the shots came from the Book storage building! 

Is there one iota of evidence that proves that Lee was aware that the sixth floor was the official "crime scene"?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 18, 2019, 04:03:18 PM
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And so trying to use them by way of an alibi if he knew they were not near the lunchroom at that time makes no sense. Any fool would know the police would check and the alibi would easily be shown to be a lie. Especially as he had not mentioned the day before. in that interrogation he was eating alone, why now try to change to be eating with those two. Makes no sense.

However if the conversation went like this.....

Fritz: Lee you told me you were in the lunchroom........did you see anyone else when you were in there who might be able to verify your presence?

Oswald: Well the only other employees I saw were Junior and another short guy pass just before the commotion.

Kelley mistakenly assumes he meant he was eating lunch with the. Simple misunderstanding.

The real issue here is that the have 2 key witnesses who were prepared to lie about the presence of someone who was not in there presence. Who they also lie about someone they had seen but claimed not to? Especially if that someone was a dead commie accused Presidential assassin.

Fritz: Lee you told me you were in the lunchroom........did you see anyone else when you were in there who might be able to verify your presence?

This imagined question imparts a lot of information.....A good interrogator never imparts information to a suspect....especially one that would alert the suspect that he's being asked to provide an alibi....Like  "did you see anyone else when you were in there who might be able to verify your presence"?

Fritz being a very experienced interrogator would have asked.....

"Lee, I want to be sure that I understand you correctly, Let me see if I've got it straight.... "Tell me again where you were at the time the parade passed by the building"....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 18, 2019, 07:27:39 PM
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It is not me who has the belief Tim. I do not know who saw what. We only have others impressions of what was said under interrogation by the accused. We do have signed statements from key individuals that are plain lies....something that was ignored, why?

Colin, What are the statements that you are referring to? How have you determined that those statements are lies?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 18, 2019, 10:16:37 PM
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Colin, What are the statements that you are referring to? How have you determined that those statements are lies?

Both Jarman and Norman repeatedly claimed that Williams was with them on the journey up to the fifth floor. They lied. Not sure how you get around that one.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 01:03:14 AM
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Both Jarman and Norman repeatedly claimed that Williams was with them on the journey up to the fifth floor. They lied. Not sure how you get around that one.

It's quite easy to get around.  Their testimonies were made months later.  They remembered incorrectly. Why accuse them of lying? They, like many of the witnesses, can be forgiven for not remembering all of the details to exactness or correctly.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 02:31:33 AM
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It's quite easy to get around.  Their testimonies were made months later.  They remembered incorrectly. Why accuse them of lying? They, like many of the witnesses, can be forgiven for not remembering all of the details to exactness or correctly.

Wow a shared mismemory......I expected something a bit better, actually made me laugh out load. Then again I don?t have the perception you possess. Oswald in the 6th floor SN, watching for the President's arrival could see Jarman and Norman walking from the front of the building......too easy. Then again the same position would have excellent view of the ambulance arrival (with siren) about the same time.....let?s see, assassin waiting to shoot the President, you think a siren might get his attention? He could have used that. No to busy watching Jarman and Norman thinking they were walking and talking with Williams on their way upstairs.

Maybe for guys with such memories they forgot they saw Oswald in the lunchroom too. How did their memories improve? Who helped them with there recollections 4 months after the event?

Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL - And then what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.
Mr. BALL - With who?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.
Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Amazing memory about where he threw the paper from his lunch when going outside and still wanted to remember Williams in that scene. Yet it was all a dream and Belin and Ball were the real ones who tidied up over a few days in March in Dallas. They composed a story from what they had to work with.....and unfortunately they had to cover over some witness lies....just another example of their slip showing here. Their concoction was something that the majority of Joe Pubic would swallow....not such a great taste to others.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 03:19:25 AM
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Wow a shared mismemory......I expected something a bit better, actually made me laugh out load. Then again I don?t have the perception you possess.

I can show you others. However, did Jarman and Norman really repeatedly claim that Williams was with them on the journey up to the fifth floor? Where can those statements of theirs be seen? Or maybe you are reading that into their statements or the FBI reports on their statements. "After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor" is not the same thing as "After eating his lunch he then traveled together with Williams and Jarman up to the fifth floor".

 
Quote
Oswald in the 6th floor SN, watching for the President's arrival could see Jarman and Norman walking from the front of the building......too easy. Then again the same position would have excellent view of the ambulance arrival (with siren) about the same time.....let?s see, assassin waiting to shoot the President, you think a siren might get his attention? He could have used that. No to busy watching Jarman and Norman thinking they were walking and talking with Williams on their way upstairs.

Oh? About the same time? The ambulance got there at 12:23. Wouldn't the siren have got their attention as well?

Quote
Maybe for guys with such memories they forgot they saw Oswald in the lunchroom too. How did their memories improve? Who helped them with there recollections 4 months after the event?

Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL - And then what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.
Mr. BALL - With who?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.
Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Amazing memory about where he threw the paper from his lunch when going outside and still wanted to remember Williams in that scene. Yet it was all a dream and Belin and Ball were the real ones who tidied up over a few days in March in Dallas. They composed a story from what they had to work with.....and unfortunately they had to cover over some witness lies....just another example of their slip showing here. Their concoction was something that the majority of Joe Pubic would swallow....not such a great taste to others.

Did their memories improve? I certainly haven't claimed that they did.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 04:51:48 AM
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So lets look at what Harold Norman provided........all of it.

Norman was not interviewed by the DPD immediately after the assassination. He was interviewed by the FBI on the 26th of November, the Tuesday following the assassination. As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.

The Secret Service interviewed Norman in the first week of December.

AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
/s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service

Secret Service Report extracted from CD87 states that about 12.15pm "....he and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, both employees of the depository, went to the fifth floor to watch the Presidential motorcade pass by."

March 18 FBI Interview

Just before he testified before the Warren Commission Norman provided a brief statement. It added little to his story. He simply stateed he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and it appears that he felt the shots occurred at this time. Again there was no indication that Williams had joined them at the windows just before the motorcade from the floor that the shots came from minutes later.

March 24 Warren Commission Testimony

When did they leave the front of the building to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Note that for the first time, 4 months after the shooting, he states that only he and Jarman ascended to the 5th floor.

According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm.

For Tim, posted in this thread two days ago. Harold Norman.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 04:56:07 AM
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Now lets look at Jarman's various submissions.

November 23 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and Oswald alone. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them. Note that on this same day, Oswald has supposedly claimed under interrogation that Jarman and Norman had eaten lunch with them.

FBI Interview Nov 24
Jarman was interviewed the following day by the FBI and a statement produced. This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information provided largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. His recall of his positioning and co-workers at the fifth floor windows is accurate compared to the imprecise descriptions of positioning provided by Bonnie Ray. There was no mention of the ascent prior to the shots.

Secret Service Interview December 2nd
Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December and his statement formed part of WC document 87. "After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor".

January 14 FBI
Jarman was interviewed by the FBI in mid-January and in this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon.

"He said that he and Harold "Hank" Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were all employed at the TSBD at Dallas in November 22, 1963. He said that he and the other two boys ate lunch on the first floor about noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25 pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade. He said they stayed there until they heard the sound of the shots; then they went downstairs. He said Ray and Norman were with him all the time he was on the first floor and they did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time between 12.00 noon until they returned to the first floor after the shooting."

This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Note the time is 12.25.....pretty close to the time from Norman's final account he but tries once again to includes Williams with them from noon onwards.

March 24 WC Testimony
Jarman now meets up with Norman his way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and stood west of the steps on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD. He originally added Williams to that group but his memory is quickly "corrected" by Joseph Ball. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him "(they) came out later". I assume was he referring to Shelley as well? If Williams joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor before 12.15, Truly, Campbell and Lovelady were already outside minutes before this time.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.

Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?

For Tim,
Posted two days ago in this thread. James Jarman.

It?s one thing to not recall some detail that happened......it?s another to recall something that didn?t. The chances of both doing such a thing? After all these guys were mentioned specifically by the accused. They were closest to the SN at the time of the shots. They lied repeatedly about the movement of Williams, who was on the sixth floor, in the SN, just minutes before the shots.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 04:59:06 AM
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It's quite easy to get around

At least you're honest. Not a convincing argument just a away of "avoiding"......getting around.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 05:21:35 AM
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Oh? About the same time? The ambulance got there at 12:23.



My copy of the DPD tapes has dispatch acknowledge 606 out with a timestamp of 12.24. Fits nicely with my timeline. Jarman and Norman on their way. Williams sitting on the 6th floor looking out I assume. Maybe he didn?t hear the ambulance. As we can see that event is a valuable timestamp......pity those running the investigation weren?t smart enough to use it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 05:56:36 AM
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For Tim, posted in this thread two days ago. Harold Norman.

Harold Norman said that he went to the fifth floor. He said that Williams and Jarman also went to the fifth floor. They were all up there together. That's how I read it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 06:01:01 AM
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My copy of the DPD tapes has dispatch acknowledge 606 out with a timestamp of 12.24. Fits nicely with my timeline. Jarman and Norman on their way. Williams sitting on the 6th floor looking out I assume. Maybe he didn?t hear the ambulance. As we can see that event is a valuable timestamp......pity those running the investigation weren?t smart enough to use it.

My copy of the DPD tapes has 606 notifying Dispatch that they are out at a 12:23 timestamp. Do either Norman or Jarman ever mention the ambulance?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 06:05:02 AM
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At least you're honest. Not a convincing argument just a away of "avoiding"......getting around.

I prefer to not call people liars when there are other alternatives. Why would they lie about Williams eating lunch with them? If they really did mean to say that Williams traveled with them to the fifth floor, what was their purpose in saying so if they knew it to be false?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 06:32:54 AM
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My copy of the DPD tapes has 606 notifying Dispatch that they are out at a 12:23 timestamp. Do either Norman or Jarman ever mention the ambulance?

The very next is dispatch acknowledging them.....and on the same line he says 12.24. Seems to me to be closer to 12.24 but no matter. They do not mention it nor were they asked in either the WC or HSCA. Pity. We have Harold Norman?s recollection of the motorcade at main.....that was about 12.24 so close enough. Maybe that was a mis memory too.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 06:39:21 AM
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Harold Norman said that he went to the fifth floor. He said that Williams and Jarman also went to the fifth floor. They were all up there together. That's how I read it.

What Harold said....

I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position......

Seems to indicate they went together to me.......then again where Wllliams really was before he joined them wasn?t that important was it?

What did Jarman say Tim......any explanation for those statements?



Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 06:51:19 AM
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The very next is dispatch acknowledging them.....and on the same line he says 12.24. Seems to me to be closer to 12.24 but no matter. They do not mention it nor were they asked in either the WC or HSCA. Pity. We have Harold Norman?s recollection of the motorcade at main.....that was about 12.24 so close enough. Maybe that was a mis memory too.


Norman recalled that the motorcade was at main and never bothered mentioning the scene that was taking place on Houston? Doesn't that seem rather odd?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 06:56:27 AM
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What Harold said....

I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position......

Seems to indicate they went together to me.......then again where Wllliams really was before he joined them wasn?t that important was it?

What did Jarman say Tim......any explanation for those statements?

Jarman said pretty much the same as Norman, except that he added that Williams ate with them.

Why would Jarman lie about Williams eating lunch with them? If they really did mean to say that Williams traveled with them to the fifth floor, what was their purpose in saying so if they knew it to be false?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
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Norman recalled that the motorcade was at main and never bothered mentioning the scene that was taking place on Houston? Doesn't that seem rather odd?

I think the point is that they left about that time....well after 12.20. Their journey takes them passed the lunchroom and about 2-3 minutes later they are in position on the fifth floor. Maybe it?s 12.25......don?t think it really matters. Williams then has to depart the SN and go down, joining them a minute or so later. This corroborates Rowland who claimed to have seen a coloured man in the SN prior to 12.25. It could not have been Norman and Jarman on the floor below. It also is consistent with Brennan who arrived in position about this time and saw two men on the fifth floor and a human form leaving the SN and returning. Both Brennan and Rowland reference the seizure event.

The sixth floor was crucial in the investigation from only minutes after the assassination. That is why Williams was at DPD when he saw Oswald brought in. Fritz had ordered Senkel to gather everyone who had been on the 6th floor that day to be brought in for questioning. On that day Williams says nothing about having been there. If his story is true he was there only a few minutes before the shots. Yet he mentions nothing of this. Dougherty does in his statement but the police do not realise the implications of his actions. Williams lunch was left in the SN and initially thought to be the assassin?s according to numerous media reports in the coming days.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 07:11:05 AM
A questions for you Tim. When Williams joined the other two do you think he mentioned where he had come from before or after the shots? Perhaps you think he said nothing.....well?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 07:13:46 AM
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I think the point is that they left about that time....well after 12.20. Their journey takes them passed the lunchroom and about 2-3 minutes later they are in position on the fifth floor. Maybe it?s 12.25......don?t think it really matters. Williams then has to depart the SN and go down, joining them a minute or so later. This corroborates Rowland who claimed to have seen a coloured man in the SN prior to 12.25. It could not have been Norman and Jarman on the floor below. It also is consistent with Brennan who arrived in position about this time and saw two men on the fifth floor and a human form leaving the SN and returning. Both Brennan and Rowland reference the seizure event.

The sixth floor was crucial in the investigation from only minutes after the assassination. That is why Williams was at DPD when he saw Oswald brought in. Fritz had ordered Senkel to gather everyone who had been on the 6th floor that day to be brought in for questioning. On that day Williams says nothing about having been there. If his story is true he was there only a few minutes before the shots. Yet he mentions nothing of this. Dougherty does in his statement but the police do not realise the implications of his actions. Williams lunch was left in the SN and initially thought to be the assassin?s according to numerous media reports in the coming days.

Speaking of improved memories, who helped Rowland improve his?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 07:19:25 AM
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It also is consistent with Brennan who arrived in position about this time and saw two men on the fifth floor and a human form leaving the SN and returning. Both Brennan and Rowland reference the seizure event.

So, Norman and Jarman were already on the fifth floor when Brennan arrived at his position at 12:22?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 07:22:09 AM
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A questions for you Tim. When Williams joined the other two do you think he mentioned where he had come from before or after the shots? Perhaps you think he said nothing.....well?

Why would he bother mentioning where he had come from?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 07:22:42 AM
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Speaking of improved memories, who helped Rowland improve his?

Perhaps he had a post traumatic vision of Williams eating his lunch and then departing after 12.25.....hang on....he forgot to mention the chicken lunch found in the SN......he must have made it up. The assembled information shows his to be merely confirmatory of Williams movments.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 07:23:55 AM
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So, Norman and Jarman were already on the fifth floor when Brennan arrived at his position at 12:22?

Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 19, 2019, 07:34:11 AM
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Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.


I got it wrong. Brennan arrived at the corner of Houston and Elm at about 12:22 but never took his position on the retainer wall until a few minutes later.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 07:40:34 AM
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I got it wrong. Brennan arrived at the corner of Houston and Elm at about 12:22 but never took his position on the retainer wall until a few minutes later.
Thanks Tim. He did not take up position until the ambulancence left at 12.25.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 19, 2019, 09:12:32 AM
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Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.

The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 19, 2019, 10:38:52 AM
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The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.

I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 19, 2019, 11:23:01 AM
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I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.

Bill the troll wrote:    "The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony"


"So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems. Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail."


Got it.

Colin ....This is a favorite tactic of the knit pickin,  chicken spit LNer's, like Chappie.....And you're right...."12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman".
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 02:57:40 AM
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You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce513.jpg)

These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:00:47 AM
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But somehow you assume that three different versions of what was said during interrogations must all be accurate and therefore Oswald "changed his story".  Interesting...

Oswald was a known uber liar so there's no reason to believe anything he said.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:39:26 AM
Quote
According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm


Timeline according to 6th Floor Museum; Motorcade turns into Main St. 12:21 p.m.

https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/ (https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/)

DPD radio log has motorcade reaching intersection of Harwood and Live Oak before 12:22 p.m. that's three blocks from Main St. While on main St. the motorcade was travelling at a speed of from 10-15 MPH (see Kellerman WCT). There's also the question as to how Norman knew of the motorcade arriving at Main St. has to be explained. KLIF was not reporting the location of the motorcade once it left Love Field (see David Von Pein You Tube channel) and there's no evidence there was a two or three wheeler DPD motorbike outside the DTBD while Norman was out side waiting for the motorcade.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 03:42:39 AM
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Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce513.jpg)

These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce513.jpg)

This is an authentic photo of the so called "Sniper's Nest" as it appeared at about 1:15 that afternoon....

Notice that there is a stack of three boxes of Rolling Readers within inches of the south wall and the window in that south wall is less than half way open.
The stack of three boxes ( "X" on top box) that are closer to the camera were about 1 foot from the stack of rolling Readers.  And the boxes on the left were against the East wall.    This should be enough to show how small and cramped the so called "Sniper's Nest" was....and the impossibility of anybody STANDING and firing a rifle from that site.
A)The window is not open wide enough to allow a standing gunman to fire down on to Elm street. ( The bullet would hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
B)He could not have stood behind the stack of rolling readers because there was room enough between the two stacks of boxes( the stacks with the two X's) 
C) He could not have stood behind the taller stack of boxes with the X because He couldn't have declined the barrel of the rifle and he would have been too far back from the window and behind the stack of boxes so nobody ( Howard Brennan) could have seen him from the street in front of the TSBD.
D) He could not have been sitting on a box to the left ( along the east wall) and utilized the stack of Rolling Readers as a rifle rest because he could not have declined the barrel don and hit a target on Elm street.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:46:17 AM
Quote
Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?

BRW said he got bored ? waiting for Arce and Lovelady, heard movement and windows opening below his floor and went down to check out the fifth floor.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 03:53:02 AM
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BRW said he got bored ? waiting for Arce and Lovelady, heard movement and windows opening below his floor and went down to check out the fifth floor.

So Williams was alerted to Jarman and Norman talking on the floor beneath his feet, but he never noticed the noisy elevator that had just arrived ??? Maybe BRW was making things up.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:55:20 AM
Quote
Notice that there is a stack of three boxes of Rolling Readers within inches of the south wall and the window in that south wall is less than half way open.
The stack of three boxes ( "X" on top box) that are closer to the camera were about 1 foot from the stack of rolling Readers.  And the boxes on the left were against the East wall.    This should be enough to show how small and cramped the so called "Sniper's Nest" was....and the impossibility of anybody STANDING and firing a rifle from that site.
A)The window is not open wide enough to allow a standing gunman to fire down on to Elm street. ( The bullet would hit the cement ledge beneath the window)
B)He could not have stood behind the stack of rolling readers because there was room enough between the two stacks of boxes( the stacks with the two X's) 
C) He could not have stood behind the taller stack of boxes with the X because He couldn't have declined the barrel of the rifle and he would have been too far back from the window and behind the stack of boxes so nobody ( Howard Brennan) could have seen him from the street in front of the TSBD.
D) He could not have been sitting on a box to the left ( along the east wall) and utilized the stack of Rolling Readers as a rifle rest because he could not have declined the barrel don and hit a target on Elm street.


I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of Oswald standing to shoot. From his vantage point Oswald would appear to be standing just as BRW, Junior and Norman would appear to be standing behind the windows. I believe, and I'm not sure about this, that Brennan described BRW and Norman or Junior as standing also.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:02:11 AM
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So Williams was alerted to Jarman and Norman talking on the floor beneath his feet, but he never noticed the noisy elevator that had just arrived ??? Maybe BRW was making things up.....

Which noisy elevator would that be. The one almost at the NW corner that Norman and Jarman used to get to the fifth floor? How do you know these elevators where so noisy that BRW would have noticed the sound from all the way from the southern side of the TSBD? And didn't Norman say that it was more noisy on 11/22 than when the test for the falling cartridges were done months later?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:08:47 AM
Quote
Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.


Oswald was killed by Ruby on the 24th. Why follow up on claims by an uber liar? You believe these interrogators where so gullible as to think Oswald was telling the truth?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 04:09:56 AM
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I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of Oswald standing to shoot. From his vantage point Oswald would appear to be standing just as BRW, Junior and Norman would appear to be standing behind the windows. I believe, and I'm not sure about this, that Brennan described BRW and Norman or Junior as standing also.

I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of Oswald standing to shoot.

I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of a thirty year old, 175 pound, man who was dressed in dingy white or khaki colored shirt and trousers  Oswald who standing to shoot.

Yes the corrected sentence is what I am referring too.....Brennan described the man as STANDING and he could see the entire upper body of the man from his BELT UP ....  Even a dolt can umderstand that a kneeling man could not have been seen from the BELT UP by a person on Elm street....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 04:13:23 AM
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Which noisy elevator would that be. The one almost at the NW corner that Norman and Jarman used to get to the fifth floor? How do you know these elevators where so noisy that BRW would have noticed the sound from all the way from the southern side of the TSBD? And didn't Norman say that it was more noisy on 11/22 than when the test for the falling cartridges were done months later?

Oh fer cryin out loud...Many of the people who worked in the TSBD said that the elevators were very noisy....Why the hell don't you learn the basics...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:27:31 AM
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I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of Oswald standing to shoot.

I'm sure you're referring to Brennan's description of a thirty year old, 175 pound, man who was dressed in dingy white or khaki colored shirt and trousers  Oswald who standing to shoot.

Yes the corrected sentence is what I am referring too.....Brennan described the man as STANDING and he could see the entire upper body of the man from his BELT UP ....  Even a dolt can umderstand that a kneeling man could not have been seen from the BELT UP by a person on Elm street....

Brennan claimed he could have identified Oswald but was afraid it was a communist conspiracy and that he and his family might be in danger. In his WC testimony he was sure Oswald was the man he saw shoot.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:32:32 AM
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Oh fer cryin out loud...Many of the people who worked in the TSBD said that the elevators were very noisy....Why the hell don't you learn the basics...

You didn't answer my question. it's one thing for an elevator to be noisy to a person riding in it and another for the sound to project far enough for someone hearing it from where BRW was eating his lunch clear across the sixth floor with dozens of boxes of books in the way to muzzle the sound.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 21, 2019, 04:44:11 AM
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Why would he bother mentioning where he had come from?

I can imaging before the shooting by way of conversation......something like "Hi guys, I was waiting for Billy and Danny upstairs but no one showed up, thought it was them down here."

or after the shots....

"Damn, those shots came from directly above us, I was just there before I joined you."

or.....

Nothing.

what do you think?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 21, 2019, 04:50:13 AM
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..I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).
As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup.
I also am a skeptic. 
Quote
Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?
Only speculation...perhaps he was told to in advance or on the phone by someone.
Quote
Brennan claimed he could have identified Oswald but was afraid it was a communist conspiracy and that he and his family might be in danger. In his WC testimony he was sure Oswald was the man he saw shoot.
Probably told to say that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 21, 2019, 05:07:36 AM
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Timeline according to 6th Floor Museum; Motorcade turns into Main St. 12:21 p.m.

https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/ (https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/)

DPD radio log has motorcade reaching intersection of Harwood and Live Oak before 12:22 p.m. that's three blocks from Main St. While on main St. the motorcade was travelling at a speed of from 10-15 MPH (see Kellerman WCT). There's also the question as to how Norman knew of the motorcade arriving at Main St. has to be explained. KLIF was not reporting the location of the motorcade once it left Love Field (see David Von Pein You Tube channel) and there's no evidence there was a two or three wheeler DPD motorbike outside the DTBD while Norman was out side waiting for the motorcade.

They do list 12.21......seems they are wrong.

12:22 pm 1 Escort drop back, go real slow speed now
approaching Main.
531-15-2 You reading?
15-2-531 10-4.
1 Hold up escort, CK, move along.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf)

Looks like there was an announcement about Main after all.....about 12.22. Was hearing this the trigger for Jarman and Norman to stop going with Givens and turn back to the depository? They realized they had time to get a better view from the 5th floor.

Truly states he saw the three leave the front of the TSBD but two return.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 21, 2019, 05:47:17 AM
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Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce513.jpg)

These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.

The picture is shown looking south and you can see the "rifle rest boxes" in the window. Therefore these do not represent the area that BRW indicated. He was vague but said it was around the 3rd to 4th series of windows. This was the place that Day enquired the employees about on the following Monday and represented the spot where Studebaker had informed Day they had been found. They had been moved to this spot from where Mooney indicated, the SN, likely by Gerald Hill, prior to the arrival of Fritz and co.

How were they covering for BRW? Why would they feel the need to do so?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
Me
Brennan claimed he could have identified Oswald but was afraid it was a communist conspiracy and that he and his family might be in danger. In his WC testimony he was sure Oswald was the man he saw shoot.

Jerry
Probably told to say that.


Of course! Brennan was one among a cast of dozens, if not hundreds, involved in a coverup.  ::)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:09:57 PM
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They do list 12.21......seems they are wrong.

12:22 pm 1 Escort drop back, go real slow speed now
approaching Main.
531-15-2 You reading?
15-2-531 10-4.
1 Hold up escort, CK, move along.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf)

Looks like there was an announcement about Main after all.....about 12.22. Was hearing this the trigger for Jarman and Norman to stop going with Givens and turn back to the depository? They realized they had time to get a better view from the 5th floor.

Truly states he saw the three leave the front of the TSBD but two return.

I don't believe there's any evidence other than the claim made by Norman that anybody heard the DPD radio call. The most likely scenario is that Norman and Jarman just wanted a better view of the motorcade. The three guys Truly saw were most likely Givens, Jarman and Norman.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 03:37:27 PM
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The picture is shown looking south and you can see the "rifle rest boxes" in the window. Therefore these do not represent the area that BRW indicated. He was vague but said it was around the 3rd to 4th series of windows. This was the place that Day enquired the employees about on the following Monday and represented the spot where Studebaker had informed Day they had been found. They had been moved to this spot from where Mooney indicated, the SN, likely by Gerald Hill, prior to the arrival of Fritz and co.

How were they covering for BRW? Why would they feel the need to do so?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. One of the boxes (the one closest to the viewer) marked by Mooney on CE-513 formed part of the west wall of the SN. below is the view of the SN as seen looking from N to S. It is to the right (or West) of the area shown in CE-508 that BRW had lunch. BRW could have just walked over to the boxes forming the SN, looked inside, and seeing no one placed the chicken bone and the lunch bag on top of the box.

I don't believe Norman and Jarman were covering for BRW. They got together before their WC testimony and ironed out their different versions, i. e., who went down which elevator, but not to discuss whether either guy had to address the alleged cover up of BRW because they weren't covering up for BRW. Notice how both Junior and Harold stuck to their timeline of when they decided to go to the fifth floor. That doesn't jive with BRW timeline. If they had wanted to cover for BRW the timeline would have been the same.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce508.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 04:12:50 PM
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I also am a skeptic.  Only speculation...perhaps he was told to in advance or on the phone by someone.  Probably told to say that.

Brennan claimed he could have identified Oswald but was afraid it was a communist conspiracy and that he and his family might be in danger. In his WC testimony he was sure Oswald was the man he saw shoot.

OK...Now you're going to have to explain Why Brennan described the man that he saw aiming a HIGH POWERED ( ie; Hunting rifle) as in his thirties, weighing 175 pounds, and wearing dingy white khaki clothing....  The WC found that Lee Oswald was just 24 , he weighed 131 pounds, the rifle that was allegedly his, was an old military rifle, ans he didn't even own any dingy white khaki clothing.....

Do you really believe that Howard Brennan could have identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw???
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:29:27 PM
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Brennan claimed he could have identified Oswald but was afraid it was a communist conspiracy and that he and his family might be in danger. In his WC testimony he was sure Oswald was the man he saw shoot.

OK...Now you're going to have to explain Why Brennan described the man that he saw aiming a HIGH POWERED ( ie; Hunting rifle) as in his thirties, weighing 175 pounds, and wearing dingy white khaki clothing....  The WC found that Lee Oswald was just 24 , he weighed 131 pounds, the rifle that was allegedly his, was an old military rifle, ans he didn't even own any dingy white khaki clothing.....

Do you really believe that Howard Brennan could have identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw???

What's with the HIGH POWERED capitalized! What's the big deal? Anyhow, it's not what I believe but that Brennan believed he could have identified Oswald as the shooter. I believe that in the show up Brennan identified Oswald as the closest in appearance to the man he saw. That's after having second thoughts about getting involved. All we have is Brennan's testimony to go by and if he says he could have positively identified Oswald as the shooter there's no reason to doubt him. There's nothing that I'm aware of that has cast doubts about Brennan being anything but an honest man.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 04:39:06 PM
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The picture is shown looking south and you can see the "rifle rest boxes" in the window. Therefore these do not represent the area that BRW indicated. He was vague but said it was around the 3rd to 4th series of windows. This was the place that Day enquired the employees about on the following Monday and represented the spot where Studebaker had informed Day they had been found. They had been moved to this spot from where Mooney indicated, the SN, likely by Gerald Hill, prior to the arrival of Fritz and co.

How were they covering for BRW? Why would they feel the need to do so?

The picture is shown looking south and you can see the "rifle rest boxes" in the window.

That's right Colin....Now imagine yourself to be sitting on a box to the left of the "rifle rest boxes" and trying to utilize those boxes as a steady rest for firing a rifle.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce513.jpg)
HOW tall would you need to be to enable you to decline the muzzle of the rifle so that you could hit a target down on Elm street?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 04:51:02 PM
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What's with the HIGH POWERED capitalized! What's the big deal? Anyhow, it's not what I believe but that Brennan believed he could have identified Oswald as the shooter. I believe that in the show up Brennan identified Oswald as the closest in appearance to the man he saw. That's after having second thoughts about getting involved. All we have is Brennan's testimony to go by and if he says he could have positively identified Oswald as the shooter there's no reason to doubt him. There's nothing that I'm aware of that has cast doubts about Brennan being anything but an honest man.

What's with the HIGH POWERED capitalized! What's the big deal?

Howard Brennan used the term "HIGH POWERED RIFLE" to describe the weapon that he saw in the hands of the 175 pound  man in the light colored Khaki clothing .....

We can know that Brennan could have used an alternate term of big game HUNTING RIFLE  in place of "HIGH POWERED RIFLE.   And since Brennan was the source for the description of the suspect that was broadcast over the police radio at 12:45 we can be certain that Brennan was referring to a HUNTING RIFLE, because the police broadcast said that the suspect was armed with a "30 caliber rifle, possibly a 30.30 Winchester".   That information had to have come from Howard Brennan....

And Brennan definitely DID NOT tell the police that the man was aiming a old military rifle.......   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 04:59:26 PM
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What's with the HIGH POWERED capitalized! What's the big deal?

Howard Brennan used the term "HIGH POWERED RIFLE" to describe the weapon that he saw in the hands of the 175 pound  man in the light colored Khaki clothing .....

We can know that Brennan could have used an alternate term of big game HUNTING RIFLE  in place of "HIGH POWERED RIFLE.   And since Brennan was the source for the description of the suspect that was broadcast over the police radio at 12:45 we can be certain that Brennan was referring to a HUNTING RIFLE, because the police broadcast said that the suspect was armed with a "30 caliber rifle, possibly a 30.30 Winchester".   That information had to have come from Howard Brennan....

And Brennan definitely DID NOT tell the police that the man was aiming a old military rifle.......

Brennan could have based his description due to the loud sound made by the discharge, i.e., high powered rifle. Brennan never said it was a 30.30 Winchester so that description could have come from Sawyer's interpretation of what Brennan said or from another witness who might have identified the rifle as a 30.30 Winchester. That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 05:07:22 PM
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Brennan could have based his description due to the loud sound made by the discharge, i.e., high powered rifle. Brennan never said it was a 30.30 Winchester so that description could have come from Sawyer's interpretation of what Brennan said or from another witness who might have identified the rifle as a 30.30 Winchester. That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

Thank you for admitting that the Carcano was a slow operating rifle....   By comparing it to a Winchester 30.30  which you clearly believe is a rapid fire weapon....

And you're absolutely right....Many of the witnesses who heard the shots thought the that the weapon being fired was an AUTOMATIC ...because the shots were so closely spaced.....  They most certainly were NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano being fired.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 05:21:29 PM
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That's a repeating rifle and some witnesses thought they heard rapid shots.

Thank you for admitting that the Carcano was a slow operating rifle....   By comparing it to a Winchester 30.30  which you clearly believe is a rapid fire weapon....

And you're absolutely right....Many of the witnesses who heard the shots thought the that the weapon being fired was an AUTOMATIC ...because the shots were so closely spaced.....  They most certainly were NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano being fired.....

I associate the 30.30. Winchester as a lever action rifle therefore I used repeating rifle. Perhaps it's the wrong way to associate lever action with repeating rifle so let's say that a lever action rifle is much faster than a bolt action rifle. There's also a multiple sound factor to consider when a rifle is discharged so some ear witnesses could have confused the multiple sound effect (and echoes) with that of a rapid fire weapon.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 21, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
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Maybe I didn't make myself clear. One of the boxes (the one closest to the viewer) marked by Mooney on CE-513 formed part of the west wall of the SN. below is the view of the SN as seen looking from N to S. It is to the right (or West) of the area shown in CE-508 that BRW had lunch. BRW could have just walked over to the boxes forming the SN, looked inside, and seeing no one placed the chicken bone and the lunch bag on top of the box.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce508.jpg)

I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 21, 2019, 05:47:49 PM
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I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/

It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

No doubt about it.... The boxes closest to the viewer DID NOT create the west wall of the tiny nook that is known as the "Sniper's Nest"
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 21, 2019, 07:57:42 PM
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I don't know. It's highly doubtful that the one closest to the viewer made up part of the West Wall of the sniper's nest.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339010/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49643/m1/1/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/

OK, substitute West with North. Doesn't change BRW access to the box from outside the SN. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 21, 2019, 09:42:57 PM
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OK, substitute West with North. Doesn't change BRW access to the box from outside the SN.

Yup. Definitely outside the SN.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 22, 2019, 02:06:48 AM
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Yup. Definitely outside the SN.

Please define what constitutes the SN so we can progress discussion further.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 22, 2019, 03:57:45 AM
In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. He stated that the shots came from above. He was brought in for questioning because he was identified as someone who had earlier worked on that floor. Obviously by 2 pm he was aware the 6th floor was a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not mention that he had been there. His statement simply states that after leaving the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?. They were there only a short time before the shooting.

So on day one his story is simply, went down with the flooring crew about 11.50pm to have lunch and then went with Jarman and Norman to the 5th floor just before the shooting.

He also knew Oswald was in police custody at this time. Highlighting the police focus on the prime suspect following his arrest, Williams states he had not seen Oswald since 8 am that morning. About the time Williams was released from the DPD his chicken lunch and Dr Pepper bottle arrived at the Police Department via Officer Marvin Johnson as part of the evidence recovered from the 6th floor crime scene. It was also around this time that the WFAA-TV news report linked the lunch and pop bottle to the assassin.

Carl Day eventually admitted in his WC testimony that he eventually established the ownership of the lunch until 3 days later.
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified.

Saturday, the day after the assassination, Williams was visited by FBI Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. Just a day after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with taking Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed in his WC testimony to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25 pm.

Williams now provided significant alterations and additions to his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He moved the time for the descent in the elevator race, shifting it 20 minutes earlier than the time he stated just the day before to, 11.30am. However, the men did in fact break for lunch about 11.50am as he initially stated. In addition, he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all.

Significantly, he now told of a lunch trip to the 6th floor prior to the shooting. There were no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He simply claimed he went back upstairs half an hour later, about 12. If we apply a 30 minute time shift correction this actually occurred about 12.20 pm. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! So now the story is that he did not go to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman but went, albeit briefly to the 6th floor, before joining them on the floor below. Williams says this was half an hour after the elevator race, arrives at noon and is gone by about 12.03 pm. However, if we add the 30 minute time shift, it becomes; arrives on the 6th floor at 12.20pm, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.23pm.  By moving the elevator race 20 minutes earlier I believe he is attempting to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor after 12.15 onwards?

Williams is clearly aware of the significance of the SE corner of the building as he makes specific reference to it and that he observed no one there that morning before the descent at 11.30 am (he mentions that time again, just to reinforce!) He would not be able to see the corner while working that morning because of the arrangement of boxes there. However he said that he did go to the windows in his brief lunchtime visit but did not notice anyone standing at the windows. The implication being that Williams was standing at the windows and that maybe the assassin was sitting in the SN but would be hidden from view. This later would evolve into Williams sitting and eating his lunch and the sitting assassin not visible from that position.

On day two, after the widespread announcements about the assassins chicken lunch, Williams changed his story to, being on the 6th floor about noon, walking to the windows, staying briefly, then joining Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor about 12.05pm. It would also mean that Jarman and Norman ascended just after noon.

Before we move on would appreciate and significant disagreements with this analysis.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 22, 2019, 04:05:57 AM
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Please define what constitutes the SN so we can progress discussion further.

Sheesh, do I have to?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 22, 2019, 04:15:54 AM
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Sheesh, do I have to?

Well could we all agree on the area included inside the last sets of double windows on the southern and eastern sides of the 6th floor of the TSBD?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 22, 2019, 04:21:13 AM
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Well could we all agree on the area included inside the last sets of double windows on the southern and eastern sides of the 6th floor of the TSBD?

I agree.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Gary Craig on January 22, 2019, 04:28:02 AM
The alleged "sniper nest."
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 22, 2019, 04:54:59 AM
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I don't believe that Lee picked up that revolver in his boardinghouse room.....I believe that he was given the revolver after he arrived in the Theater....
The first time I heard someone suggest LHO had picked up the revolver at his boardinghouse room, I didn't see any proof that this took place only that it was possible.  You believe he was given the revolver at the theater, tell me what is it that makes you arrive at that conclusion versus when he started his day or just about any other time where this could be possible.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2019, 07:35:50 PM
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The first time I heard someone suggest LHO had picked up the revolver at his boardinghouse room, I didn't see any proof that this took place only that it was possible.  You believe he was given the revolver at the theater, tell me what is it that makes you arrive at that conclusion versus when he started his day or just about any other time where this could be possible.

Here's a possible imaginary dialog the could have been recorded inside the Texas Theater on 11/22/63....

"Hi Lee...I'm sure glad to see you.    There's been a change in the plan....  Our plan was to make it appear that you, and Juan had tried to shoot JFK, but missed and then we were going escort you out of the country so you could seek asylum in Cuba,  ...   Well something's gone wrong.....  it looks like someone has actually shot the President....But we don't know if that's true,.... yet.  Stuff has hit the fan and we don't know what's going on at the moment, but you could be in danger. Here's your pistol and some ammo.... just in case.....  Stay here in the Theater.... I'll be back later...  After we learn more..... 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
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Well could we all agree on the area included inside the last sets of double windows on the southern and eastern sides of the 6th floor of the TSBD?

The so called "Sniper's nest" was behind the south window at the east end of the sixth floor.....  It did not extend deep into the room.. (only about three feet)  and it was only the width of one set of windows....(1/2 the set of windows)

However, I don't believe that a boundary has been solidly established .....

The tiny nook had been created as a place where a loafing worker could hide out of sight of the boss and smoke ( in a no smoking area) and snack .....Someone with a wild imagination thought it could be used as a place to plant a couple of spent shells .....and thus make it appear as the place where someone had fired a couple of shots at JFK.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 22, 2019, 11:07:29 PM
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Here's a possible imaginary dialog the could have been recorded inside the Texas Theater on 11/22/63....

"Hi Lee...I'm sure glad to see you.    There's been a change in the plan....  Our plan was to make it appear that you, and Juan had tried to shoot JFK, but missed and then we were going escort you out of the country so you could seek asylum in Cuba,  ...   Well something's gone wrong.....  it looks like someone has actually shot the President....But we don't know if that's true,.... yet.  Stuff has hit the fan and we don't know what's going on at the moment, but you could be in danger. Here's your pistol and some ammo.... just in case.....  Stay here in the Theater.... I'll be back later...  After we learn more.....
That is brainstorming. Who's Juan?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2019, 11:22:33 PM
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That is brainstorming. Who's Juan?

Juan Jose Castro.... A close relative of Fidel.....  :D

C'mon.....What pat of "imaginary" don't you understand?    I invented that scenario to demonstrate that it's possible that Lee was given the gun in the Theater....

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 22, 2019, 11:33:05 PM
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In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. He stated that the shots came from above. He was brought in for questioning because he was identified as someone who had earlier worked on that floor. Obviously by 2 pm he was aware the 6th floor was a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not mention that he had been there. His statement simply states that after leaving the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?. They were there only a short time before the shooting.

So on day one his story is simply, went down with the flooring crew about 11.50pm to have lunch and then went with Jarman and Norman to the 5th floor just before the shooting.

He also knew Oswald was in police custody at this time. Highlighting the police focus on the prime suspect following his arrest, Williams states he had not seen Oswald since 8 am that morning. About the time Williams was released from the DPD his chicken lunch and Dr Pepper bottle arrived at the Police Department via Officer Marvin Johnson as part of the evidence recovered from the 6th floor crime scene. It was also around this time that the WFAA-TV news report linked the lunch and pop bottle to the assassin.

Carl Day eventually admitted in his WC testimony that he eventually established the ownership of the lunch until 3 days later.
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Note that the other TSBD employees were not fingerprinted until June 1964 two months after Day testified.

Saturday, the day after the assassination, Williams was visited by FBI Agents Odum and Griffin and a statement prepared following his interview with them. Just a day after the assassination the only people who would be aware of a gunman on the 6th floor of the TSBD as early as 12.15pm the day before would be the assassin (s), Arnold Rowland and his wife, Roger Craig and the few police and officials who were involved with taking Rowland's statement (or were subsequently informed) and Rosemary Allen (the notary who signed his statement). Another person who might have known was the man who Rowland claimed in his WC testimony to have observed in the SN prior to 12.15 until about 12.25 pm.

Williams now provided significant alterations and additions to his statement given just the day before to the DPD. He moved the time for the descent in the elevator race, shifting it 20 minutes earlier than the time he stated just the day before to, 11.30am. However, the men did in fact break for lunch about 11.50am as he initially stated. In addition, he now remembered he saw Oswald on the 5th floor, as the elevator went down.  Just the day before he doesn?t remember this sighting at all.

Significantly, he now told of a lunch trip to the 6th floor prior to the shooting. There were no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He simply claimed he went back upstairs half an hour later, about 12. If we apply a 30 minute time shift correction this actually occurred about 12.20 pm. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes, obviously not enough time to finish lunch! So now the story is that he did not go to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman but went, albeit briefly to the 6th floor, before joining them on the floor below. Williams says this was half an hour after the elevator race, arrives at noon and is gone by about 12.03 pm. However, if we add the 30 minute time shift, it becomes; arrives on the 6th floor at 12.20pm, walks to a position to watch the motorcade and is gone by 12.23pm.  By moving the elevator race 20 minutes earlier I believe he is attempting to avoid being anywhere on the 6th Floor after 12.15 onwards?

Williams is clearly aware of the significance of the SE corner of the building as he makes specific reference to it and that he observed no one there that morning before the descent at 11.30 am (he mentions that time again, just to reinforce!) He would not be able to see the corner while working that morning because of the arrangement of boxes there. However he said that he did go to the windows in his brief lunchtime visit but did not notice anyone standing at the windows. The implication being that Williams was standing at the windows and that maybe the assassin was sitting in the SN but would be hidden from view. This later would evolve into Williams sitting and eating his lunch and the sitting assassin not visible from that position.

On day two, after the widespread announcements about the assassins chicken lunch, Williams changed his story to, being on the 6th floor about noon, walking to the windows, staying briefly, then joining Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor about 12.05pm. It would also mean that Jarman and Norman ascended just after noon.

Before we move on would appreciate and significant disagreements with this analysis.

This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 22, 2019, 11:51:33 PM
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This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?

In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. [/b]

The Bonnie Lad was locked up in a police car....There's little doubt that he heard the radio regarding the search for Charles Givens.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 23, 2019, 12:15:03 AM
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In his handwritten statement to the DPD on the 22nd Bonnie Ray says nothing about his solo visit the 6th floor to eat lunch earlier that day. He stated that he went to work on the 6th floor and mentions the other members of the floor-laying crew. Interestingly he states that Givens had left the building prior and had not been able to get back into the building and had likely gone home. No doubt he was informed about Givens from either Norman or Jarman in the hours or so after the shooting but before his departure for police HQ. [/b]

The Bonnie Lad was locked up in a police car....There's little doubt that he heard the radio regarding the search for Charles Givens.....

Jarman and Norman knew Givens had left prior....they started out with him to the car lot (on Record?) to watch. They are most likely source of that information to Williams. Likely happened during the "roll call" or similar activity.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 23, 2019, 12:25:41 AM
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This analysis is for any members who are here to "discuss and debate" the assassination. I would hope that those who read this can appreciate the time and effort that goes into the sourcing and analysis of the official documents on which it is based. For those of you who wish to engage and offer an opinion feel free to do so.

I would offer the following two statements for consideration.

Bonnie Ray Williams provided a written statement to the DPD, on the day of the assassination, that described his movements prior to the arrival of the motorcade that was essentially consistent with the statements provided Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC. Agree or disagree?

Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?

Who is up for "discussion and debate"?


OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 23, 2019, 12:38:22 AM
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OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.

Thanks Oscar. What about the first statement? Was Williams handwritten first day statement consistent with what Jarman and Norman indicated prior to their appearances before the WC? Does it indicate that he went downstairs for lunch then went up with them to the fifth floor just before the assassination? Yes or no?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 23, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
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Juan Jose Castro.... A close relative of Fidel.....  :D

C'mon.....What pat of "imaginary" don't you understand?    I invented that scenario to demonstrate that it's possible that Lee was given the gun in the Theater....
Well, if LHO was set-up, of course, he would have to of been directed to the theater to unknowingly meet a zillion officers for what, not paying the admission?  Instead, they should have sent LHO to Ruth Paine's neighbor. Sure, it's miles away but if Lee can do all these impossible tasks you just create another impossible feat.
Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 23, 2019, 05:11:03 PM
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Well, if LHO was set-up, of course, he would have to of been directed to the theater to unknowingly meet a zillion officers for what, not paying the admission?  Instead, they should have sent LHO to Ruth Paine's neighbor. Sure, it's miles away but if Lee can do all these impossible tasks you just create another impossible feat.
Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go


Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go

The imaginary dialog took place IN the Texas Theater AFTER Lee left the rooming house.....  Are you aware that there were three of Hoover's men in the Texas Theater at the time Lee was dragged from the theater.....  Imagine that... Federal agents pursuing someone who had sneaked into a theater!
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 24, 2019, 02:33:15 AM
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Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go

The imaginary dialog took place IN the Texas Theater AFTER Lee left the rooming house.....  Are you aware that there were three of Hoover's men in the Texas Theater at the time Lee was dragged from the theater.....  Imagine that... Federal agents pursuing someone who had sneaked into a theater!
Yes, but I'm starting to think I was there too.
Why would they be right in the theater, when they could have watched from a distance. When people talk "conspiracy" in general I would have to imagine it is the reason evidence is always in layers as if the conspiracy involved certain agencies by accident or after the fact.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 24, 2019, 08:25:13 PM
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Yes, but I'm starting to think I was there too.
Why would they be right in the theater, when they could have watched from a distance. When people talk "conspiracy" in general I would have to imagine it is the reason evidence is always in layers as if the conspiracy involved certain agencies by accident or after the fact.

Why would they be right in the theater, when they could have watched from a distance.

I'm not going to give you the answer.... It doesn't take a genius to arrive at a plausible answer to that question....Think about it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 24, 2019, 09:42:32 PM
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Name the 'multiple' witnesses
And where did your 'Oswald' wind up?

You still don't know the evidence, huh?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Brian Doyle on January 24, 2019, 09:44:54 PM
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Getting back to your revolver idea. He had before he left the DSBD. I don't understand why he stopped by the boardinghouse, involved or not, that is the last place I would go

To get clean clothes because his assignment went elsewhere after the Theater...Or so he was led to believe...That's why he left the wedding band...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 24, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
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Roger Craig
Marvin Robinson
Helen Forrest
Roy Cooper
James Pennington

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Thanks John. There's Randolph Carr too.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 24, 2019, 09:47:05 PM
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Back at ya, tough guy
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)


Roger Craig
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Marvin Robinson
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Helen Forrest
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

Roy Cooper
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

James Pennington
(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)

You clearly seem clueless about most of the evidence in this case so why are you here? Just curious.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Rob Caprio on January 24, 2019, 09:48:59 PM
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Point out where I ever said I was right about the evidence

At least you admit that you are NEVER right about the evidence.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 25, 2019, 04:22:01 AM
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At least you admit that you are NEVER right about the evidence.

Where did I 'admit' that

Unlike certain blowhards on this forum, I lack the ego and arrogance to claim I 'know' what happened.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 25, 2019, 05:15:10 AM
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The so called "Sniper's nest" was behind the south window at the east end of the sixth floor.....  It did not extend deep into the room.. (only about three feet)  and it was only the width of one set of windows....(1/2 the set of windows)

However, I don't believe that a boundary has been solidly established .....

The tiny nook had been created as a place where a loafing worker could hide out of sight of the boss and smoke ( in a no smoking area) and snack .....Someone with a wild imagination thought it could be used as a place to plant a couple of spent shells .....and thus make it appear as the place where someone had fired a couple of shots at JFK.

And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 25, 2019, 05:59:35 AM
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OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.

Ok. Waiting for your discussion and debate.

"The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission." Not sure what this means.....

I disagree with what I think is your premise. What the commission did was to concoct a story that suited the official outcome. This was compiled largely by Ball and Belin in their March trip to Dallas. The lies of the three were largely ignored. If you read my analysis there was no need to rely on Rowland, his observations were merely conformational.

You agree that Williams did go to the 6th floor, how about his first day statement?

He left the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?.

Was that essentially the same regarding his movements as those provided by Jarman and Norman before the WC testimonies?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 25, 2019, 06:19:22 AM
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OK, let's discuss and debate. I think BRW had no reason to lie and neither did Jarman and Norman. I have posted my opinion on the subject already. The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission. I think relying on Arnold Rowland's testimony is foolish. I agree with your following statement "Williams went to the 6th floor to eat his lunch and watch the motorcade prior to joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor on the day of the assassination. Agree or disagree?" I won't be able to fully engage until Thursday night at the earliest as I have some commitments.

The thing that's frustrating for me is why none of the 3 sought to investigate the sixth floor upon hearing shots from above them. Instead they run over to the west side windows. Not too bright.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 25, 2019, 07:08:35 AM
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And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK.
Then you should be able to answer a question

Watch the part of the Robert Hughes film where the Presidential motorcade is turning onto Elm Street from Houston Street.  Right before the film cuts-out from that view, we can see Kennedy's limo is fully around the corner and now on Elm Street. At this point, we also see the southeast 6th-floor window.  Unfortunately,  the film cuts-out and you are unable to see a person or gun like some described to have witnessed. Now take all of the witnesses who say they saw someone in the window with a gun.

 Of those witness accounts, Howard Brennen seems to have had a direct view and describes it as:

  "this man the same man I had saw prior to the president's arrival was in the window and taking aim for his last shot after he fired last or the third shot of he didn't seem to be in a great rush hurry he seemed to pause for a moment to see if for sure he accomplished his purpose and he brought the gun back to a resting upright position as though he was satisfied."

Brennen seems to say he saw a man with a gun in the window and firing the gun out of a window ---before, during and after.

The question for you is:

 In the Hughes film at the very last point where you can see the 6th-floor window at the same time the Kennedy limo is fully around the corner on Elm Street, how long would you say it is before the man could be seen with a gun
  in the window?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 25, 2019, 08:33:33 AM
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The thing that's frustrating for me is why none of the 3 sought to investigate the sixth floor upon hearing shots from above them. Instead they run over to the west side windows. Not too bright.

What would you have done in their position Bill? Both means of exit are in the opposite corner of the building. You could stay where you are. Make a charge for the elevators or stairs. Hope that the cops arrive and go up to investigate. Would you call out to the cops as they passed?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 25, 2019, 08:35:27 AM
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Ok. Waiting for your discussion and debate.

"The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission." Not sure what this means.....

I disagree with what I think is your premise. What the commission did was to concoct a story that suited the official outcome. This was compiled largely by Ball and Belin in their March trip to Dallas. The lies of the three were largely ignored. If you read my analysis there was no need to rely on Rowland, his observations were merely conformational.

You agree that Williams did go to the 6th floor, how about his first day statement?

He left the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?.

Was that essentially the same regarding his movements as those provided by Jarman and Norman before the WC testimonies?

While we wait for Oscar. Anyone else who wishes to discuss feel free to agree or disagree with the specific statements posed.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 25, 2019, 03:10:46 PM
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Ok. Waiting for your discussion and debate.

"The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission." Not sure what this means.....

I disagree with what I think is your premise. What the commission did was to concoct a story that suited the official outcome. This was compiled largely by Ball and Belin in their March trip to Dallas. The lies of the three were largely ignored. If you read my analysis there was no need to rely on Rowland, his observations were merely conformational.

You agree that Williams did go to the 6th floor, how about his first day statement?

He left the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?.

Was that essentially the same regarding his movements as those provided by Jarman and Norman before the WC testimonies?

"The totality of all the statements of the Three Amigos (sounds much better than The Three Stooges) were covered in their testimonies before the Commission." Not sure what this means.....

It means that their testimony before the Commission carries more weight than individual pieces of statements. The purpose of the taking of testimony was to get a fuller picture of what happened. Belin, Ball and the Commission members had their previous accounts on hand to compare and contrast with the testimony that's why these individual statements to authorities were used during the questioning. I don't believe there was any intention to lie or cover up anything by the Commission or the staffers who were doing the questioning. All of the witness statements given to the FBI were made part of the record so I don't see what was being covered up.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 25, 2019, 03:14:35 PM
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The thing that's frustrating for me is why none of the 3 sought to investigate the sixth floor upon hearing shots from above them. Instead they run over to the west side windows. Not too bright.

Because they were scared! Would you have gone up to the floor from were there was someone with a gun that had been used to fire at the POTUS? I don't believe any one of us would be that brave. i know I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 25, 2019, 03:22:15 PM
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Then you should be able to answer a question

Watch the part of the Robert Hughes film where the Presidential motorcade is turning onto Elm Street from Houston Street.  Right before the film cuts-out from that view, we can see Kennedy's limo is fully around the corner and now on Elm Street. At this point, we also see the southeast 6th-floor window.  Unfortunately,  the film cuts-out and you are unable to see a person or gun like some described to have witnessed. Now take all of the witnesses who say they saw someone in the window with a gun.

 Of those witness accounts, Howard Brennen seems to have had a direct view and describes it as:

  "this man the same man I had saw prior to the president's arrival was in the window and taking aim for his last shot after he fired last or the third shot of he didn't seem to be in a great rush hurry he seemed to pause for a moment to see if for sure he accomplished his purpose and he brought the gun back to a resting upright position as though he was satisfied."

Brennen seems to say he saw a man with a gun in the window and firing the gun out of a window ---before, during and after.

The question for you is:

 In the Hughes film at the very last point where you can see the 6th-floor window at the same time the Kennedy limo is fully around the corner on Elm Street, how long would you say it is before the man could be seen with a gun
  in the window?

I'll let the commentator address your question

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 25, 2019, 10:45:10 PM
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Because they were scared! Would you have gone up to the floor from were there was someone with a gun that had been used to fire at the POTUS? I don't believe any one of us would be that brave. i know I wouldn't.

The thing that's frustrating for me is why none of the 3 sought to investigate the sixth floor upon hearing shots from above them.

Because they were scared!

Where did you get that idea. Oscar??....  Not one of them expressed any fear ....  They ALL displayed a curiosity and interest in the Grassy Knoll and the Railroad yard.   Which is very odd if they thought the shots had came from the sixth floor.....   Think about it... What would you have done if you had just heard rifle shots on the floor above you....  Would you have tried to hide ( The vast majority of people in a bank at the time of a armed robbery try to hide ) Or would you have acted like the three stooges .....
 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 25, 2019, 10:47:21 PM
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You agree that Williams did go to the 6th floor, how about his first day statement?

He left the 6th floor ?about 10 minutes to 12? to break for lunch downstairs, ?I went backup on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don?t know his last name?.

Was that essentially the same regarding his movements as those provided by Jarman and Norman before the WC testimonies?

Trying to establish common ground here. Still waiting for any response.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
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The thing that's frustrating for me is why none of the 3 sought to investigate the sixth floor upon hearing shots from above them.

Because they were scared!

Where did you get that idea. Oscar??....  Not one of them expressed any fear ....  They ALL displayed a curiosity and interest in the Grassy Knoll and the Railroad yard.   Which is very odd if they thought the shots had came from the sixth floor.....   Think about it... What would you have done if you had just heard rifle shots on the floor above you....  Would you have tried to hide ( The vast majority of people in a bank at the time of a armed robbery try to hide ) Or would you have acted like the three stooges .....
 

Something tells me that you really make stuff up as you go along.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.
Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.
Representative FORD.Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe--
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.
Mr. BALL - Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, Sir.

The CHAIRMAN - When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?
Mr. JARMAN - After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."
And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2019, 01:32:43 AM
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Something tells me that you really make stuff up as you go along.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.
Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.
Representative FORD.Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe--
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.
Mr. BALL - Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, Sir.

The CHAIRMAN - When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?
Mr. JARMAN - After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."
And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

You Dumbass.... They Never said anything about being afraid on November 22.... And their actions indicated curiosity not FEAR.....

Stick that WC testimony where the sun don't shine......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 26, 2019, 01:36:04 AM
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Because they were scared! Would you have gone up to the floor from were there was someone with a gun that had been used to fire at the POTUS? I don't believe any one of us would be that brave. i know I wouldn't.

Fair enough. But it's a mistake to assume what any given witness would do in any circumstance.

One thing I'd like to know is at what proximity and how far the window location of the 3 'trotters' (seems more than one TSBD employee was into a trotting mode of locomotion that day ;) ) were from the stairwell.

In other words, could they be sure that the shooter wouldn't have appeared on the fifth floor looking for cover and be preparing to shoot it out? Or even just looking to hide the rifle?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 26, 2019, 01:51:05 AM
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Fair enough. But it's a mistake to assume what any given witness would do in any circumstance.

One thing I'd like to know is at what proximity and how far the window location of the 3 Trotters (seems more than one TSBD employee was into such a mode of locomotion that day ;) ) from the stairwell.

In other words, could they be sure that the shooter wouldn't have appeared on the fifth floor looking for cover and be preparing to shoot it out? Or even just looking to hide the rifle?

That was my point before Bill. I think they are in a perfectly understandable position shortly after the shots overhead. I would be trying to be in a hiding position but not farthest from the means of escape downstairs.....to me this is the SW corner behind boxes. Williams even saw Baker arrive but said nothing....was he scared the cops would shoot first and ask questions later if he called out? Might be best for him to let Baker go up....then shortly after the boys could decend. Note by this time the west elevator had also descended after the shots. They claimed to note nothing of the elevator moving but one statement by Williams stated he thought the "cops" had used the elevator when they appeared.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 26, 2019, 05:32:23 AM
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OK, substitute West with North. Doesn't change BRW access to the box from outside the SN.

So when Williams accessed the box......where was the assassin? Are you able to provide any idea when this might have happened? Before 12.15 or after?

What do you think or believe?

Btw...."I think"

phrase
You use 'I think' in conversations or speeches to make your statements and opinions sound less forceful, rude, or direct.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/i-think (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/i-think)

And. "belief"

noun

an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"his belief in extraterrestrial life"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 26, 2019, 08:31:34 AM
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I'll let the commentator address your question

That doesn't answer anything. It explains what any reasonable person sees up to the point where the film cuts-out. The question is about the film stopping and when the first shot was fired.
How many seconds was it from the point the film stopped to the first shot being fired?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 12:04:12 PM
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You Dumbass.... They Never said anything about being afraid on November 22.... And their actions indicated curiosity not FEAR.....

Stick that WC testimony where the sun don't shine......

When faced with proof that reveals your ignorance resort to insults. Got it  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2019, 01:37:23 PM
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When faced with proof that reveals your ignorance resort to insults. Got it  Thumb1:

You're a damned fool Navroo.....   And a simpleton to boot, if you can't see that the "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" (WC)  was set up as a cover up committee to dupe the pissants.    So don't refer me to that Blue Ribbon Committee in an attempt to blow smoke.  Pay attention to what the three stooges did, and said in their affidavits immediately after the coup d e'tat.   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 03:12:04 PM
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Fair enough. But it's a mistake to assume what any given witness would do in any circumstance.

One thing I'd like to know is at what proximity and how far the window location of the 3 'trotters' (seems more than one TSBD employee was into a trotting mode of locomotion that day ;) ) were from the stairwell.

In other words, could they be sure that the shooter wouldn't have appeared on the fifth floor looking for cover and be preparing to shoot it out? Or even just looking to hide the rifle?

Well, trotting up to the sixth floor wasn't in the Three Amigos plans. I think that can be said with a high degree of confidence based on their testimony.

Here's a diagram of the fifth floor
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=230&tab=page
  (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=230&tab=page)

Photograph of NW corner of fifth floor as viewed from where the Three Amigos were looking out the SW corner window
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=232&tab=page
  (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=232&tab=page)

I can speculate on what the trotter trio might have been thinking but that's about as conclusive as I'm willing to go. The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window and they could have assumed that the sniper(s) had left the sixth floor by then so they decided to split the scene. Let me remind you of your own admonition. Don't assume what a given witness would do at any particular time  ;D
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 03:21:06 PM
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So when Williams accessed the box......where was the assassin? Are you able to provide any idea when this might have happened? Before 12.15 or after?

What do you think or believe?

Btw...."I think"

phrase
You use 'I think' in conversations or speeches to make your statements and opinions sound less forceful, rude, or direct.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/i-think (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/i-think)

And. "belief"

noun

an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"his belief in extraterrestrial life"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief)

Damn, Colin. Now you've got me thinking how I should use "think and believe". Placing too much pressure on me. When BRW reached the outside of the SN Oswald (the sniper) could have been hiding in any one of the many places afforded by the mess of boxes stacked on the sixth floor. When Oswald saw BRW leave (probably no later than 12:22 p.m.) he went into the SN. I arrived at that time based on Brennan's observation that he saw someone moving in the SN about 6 to 8 minutes before the shooting.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 03:28:09 PM
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That doesn't answer anything. It explains what any reasonable person sees up to the point where the film cuts-out. The question is about the film stopping and when the first shot was fired.
How many seconds was it from the point the film stopped to the first shot being fired?

IMO, the first shot was fired z158-60 so figure out for yourself where the limo was at that point in the Hughes film where it cuts out in relation to the Z frames mentioned and you'll have your answer.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 26, 2019, 03:35:42 PM
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You're a damned fool Navroo.....   And a simpleton to boot, if you can't see that the "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" (WC)  was set up as a cover up committee to dupe the pissants.    So don't refer me to that Blue Ribbon Committee in an attempt to blow smoke.  Pay attention to what the three stooges did, and said in their affidavits immediately after the coup d e'tat.

You're a nut cake, Cakebread. You've been reading too many kook books and it's affected what little gray matter you have between the ears.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 26, 2019, 04:05:00 PM
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Well, trotting up to the sixth floor wasn't in the Three Amigos plans. I think that can be said with a high degree of confidence based on their testimony.

Here's a diagram of the fifth floor
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=230&tab=page)

Photograph of NW corner of fifth floor as viewed from where the Three Amigos were looking out the SW corner window
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=232&tab=page)

I can speculate on what the trotter trio might have been thinking but that's about as conclusive as I'm willing to go. The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window and they could have assumed that the sniper(s) had left the sixth floor by then so they decided to split the scene. Let me remind you of your own admonition. Don't assume what a given witness would do at any particular time  ;D

The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window

No it was NOT!.....  From the SW corner window the three stooges could have watched the Lincoln as it proceeded North on Stemmons Freeway....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 26, 2019, 09:54:25 PM
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Well, trotting up to the sixth floor wasn't in the Three Amigos plans. I think that can be said with a high degree of confidence based on their testimony.

Here's a diagram of the fifth floor
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=230&tab=page)

Photograph of NW corner of fifth floor as viewed from where the Three Amigos were looking out the SW corner window
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=232&tab=page)

I can speculate on what the trotter trio might have been thinking but that's about as conclusive as I'm willing to go. The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window and they could have assumed that the sniper(s) had left the sixth floor by then so they decided to split the scene. Let me remind you of your own admonition. Don't assume what a given witness would do at any particular time  ;D

I don't think I'm assuming anything about what they should have done. All I ask is were they in a position at the west windows to be spotted by an assassin in flight, who for all they knew, had reason to pop onto the fifth floor.

I can see why they wouldn't ascend to the 6th floor. That would be foolhardy. But did any one of them testify that they figured the killer had gone because the limo had left the scene? You seem to be suggesting that. And by 'splitting the scene', if you mean trotting over the the west windows on the floor right below the floor that would require the killer to pass by, I'd suggest that they were indeed still smack-dab in the middle of a clear-and-present danger, arguably a potential life-and-death situation.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 26, 2019, 10:25:14 PM
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Damn, Colin. Now you've got me thinking how I should use "think and believe". Placing too much pressure on me. When BRW reached the outside of the SN Oswald (the sniper) could have been hiding in any one of the many places afforded by the mess of boxes stacked on the sixth floor. When Oswald saw BRW leave (probably no later than 12:22 p.m.) he went into the SN. I arrived at that time based on Brennan's observation that he saw someone moving in the SN about 6 to 8 minutes before the shooting.

Brennan did not get into position that early. Already established in an exchange with Tim. You were the one who used those terms, I just provided the definitions for them.

Remember we have already established that Jarman and Norman did not leave to go to the 5th floor until the motorcade reached Main. This was from his WC testimony and is consistent with Jarman?s various estimates also. The transcript I provided has Decker call that about 12.22. Your TSBD museum time was not correct. So Williams has to be on the 6th flooruntil at least 12.24 or so.

Then again if you believe differently it will be virtually impossible for me to convince you otherwise, even when faced with proof.

You seem reluctant to address the statement I posed regarding Williams first day statement. Are you still willing to discuss and debate? It is difficult to proceed without determining where we differ in the understanding of events as the actually occurred.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 12:26:35 AM
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The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window

No it was NOT!.....  From the SW corner window the three stooges could have watched the Lincoln as it proceeded North on Stemmons Freeway....

Would the limo have been within range of a sniper!
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 12:48:52 AM
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I don't think I'm assuming anything about what they should have done. All I ask is were they in a position at the west windows to be spotted by an assassin in flight, who for all they knew, had reason to pop onto the fifth floor.

I can see why they wouldn't ascend to the 6th floor. That would be foolhardy. But did any one of them testify that they figured the killer had gone because the limo had left the scene? You seem to be suggesting that. And by 'splitting the scene', if you mean trotting over the the west windows on the floor right below the floor that would require the killer to pass by, I'd suggest that they were indeed still smack-dab in the middle of a clear-and-present danger, arguably a potential life-and-death situation.

The link to the 5th floor diagram and the NW corner of the 5th floor is now available in my post you replied to. From their positions in the SW corner they could not see anyone coming down the stairs

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

The three amigos couldn't be seen by a sniper coming down the stairs but I'm sure they could have been seen if the sniper decided to go into the fifth floor to do whatever you're assuming he would do and I mentioned that I was speculating so whatever I posted should be taken with that in mind. What is verifiable from their testimony is that they decided to leave the fifth floor because it wasn't safe (and I'm paraphrasing here). What's the point of all this speculation about what the three amigos did on the fifth floor and what they should have done?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2019, 01:28:49 AM
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The link to the 5th floor diagram and the NW corner of the 5th floor is now available in my post you replied to. From their positions in the SW corner they could not see anyone coming down the stairs

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

The three amigos couldn't be seen by a sniper coming down the stairs but I'm sure they could have been seen if the sniper decided to go into the fifth floor to do whatever you're assuming he would do and I mentioned that I was speculating so whatever I posted should be taken with that in mind. What is verifiable from their testimony is that they decided to leave the fifth floor because it wasn't safe (and I'm paraphrasing here). What's the point of all this speculation about what the three amigos did on the fifth floor and what they should have done?


Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

 Isn't this from the book that LBJ's  Special Blue Ribbon Cover Up committee issued to the pissants?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 27, 2019, 07:44:28 AM
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IMO, the first shot was fired z158-60 so figure out for yourself where the limo was at that point in the Hughes film where it cuts out in relation to the Z frames mentioned and you'll have your answer.


You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.    Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made. Just that fact of pictures of them in some sort of re-enactment is misleading and does not establish anything but pure attempts to manipulate, as it apparently worked on you.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. He can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special Agent Carter was stretching what Norman told him or Norman is changing his story making him a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassin.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 03:15:10 PM
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Brennan did not get into position that early. Already established in an exchange with Tim. You were the one who used those terms, I just provided the definitions for them.

Remember we have already established that Jarman and Norman did not leave to go to the 5th floor until the motorcade reached Main. This was from his WC testimony and is consistent with Jarman?s various estimates also. The transcript I provided has Decker call that about 12.22. Your TSBD museum time was not correct. So Williams has to be on the 6th flooruntil at least 12.24 or so.

Then again if you believe differently it will be virtually impossible for me to convince you otherwise, even when faced with proof.

You seem reluctant to address the statement I posed regarding Williams first day statement. Are you still willing to discuss and debate? It is difficult to proceed without determining where we differ in the understanding of events as the actually occurred.

According to Brennan's testimony he was in position by that time. So we have competing versions. I asked how could Norman know that the motorcade had reached Main St? I listened to the KLIF radio broadcast and there was no mention of the motorcade location at that time and there's no evidence there was a DPD vehicle in the vicinity of the TSBD for the crowd to have heard the dispatch. Maybe Norman imagined that he had heard a broadcast when he testified or maybe Norman heard someone in the crowd speculate the motorcade must be at Main St by now not knowing that the motorcade was running five minutes late. The fact is we don't know how Norman heard arrived at hearing the motorcade was at Main St. before he went up to the fifth floor because he wasn't asked by counsel. So what we're left with are differing accounts about the time BRW joined Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor which were not even resolved at the hearings. If you want an account that supports an earlier time period for leaving to the fifth floor let's use Harold Norman's own account to the SS on 12/4/63;

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street."

As can be seen even Norman has a different recollection of the time he went up up to the fifth floor. So, which is it? I know you'll point out that BRW went with him but that was resolved during the WC testimony. Now let's look at Danny Arce's testimony;

Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.

No BRW with Junior Jarman, sees Norman for a brief time.


Charles Givens testimony;

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

Notice there's no mention of BRW.

Roy Truly saw what I would think were Junior, Norman and Givens. Sees all three leave but two come back. That would be Junior and Norman.

"I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed."

So, what is there to discuss and debate? You have proof from the WC testimony that BRW ate lunch on the sixth floor and then joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor. That is not in disputed by the testimony of Jarman and Norman. There's a discrepancy as to when Norman and Jarman went up to the fifth floor with Norman himself first providing 12:15 PM to the SS on 12/4/1963. It's clear that BRW ate lunch on the sixth floor as he left his chicken lunch, Fritos bag and Dr. Pepper bottle there. Evidence strongly suggest that BRW left part of his lunch lying on top of one of the boxes that make up the perimeter of the SN. Now we get into speculation territory.

Did BRW eat his lunch inside the SN?

Did BRW not eat his lunch outside of the SN (as he claimed in his WC testimony) but walked around while eating lunch and leave part of his lunch were some DPD cops say they found the remains of his lunch?

Did BRW peek inside the SN searching for a buddy to watch the parade go by? If he did where the heck was LHO? Did BRW see LHO?

If BRW did see LHO why the heck didn't he mention this to Junior, Harold, other co-workers and to Shelley, the DPD, the WC, anybody else for years after Oswald was dead and buried?

Look, if you want to debate and discuss BRW first day statement then let's also debate and discuss Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 statement to the SS. I think it's it's only fair.

 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 03:18:20 PM
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Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

 Isn't this from the book that LBJ's  Special Blue Ribbon Cover Up committee issued to the pissants?

A much better evaluation of the facts is contained within the WR than in any of the kook books that you're so fond off, Foghorn.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 03:44:57 PM
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You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above  is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassination

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

From which post did I select Brennan as you claim? In your reply #156 to my post #153 You are the one that includes Brennan. So get your facts straight. BTW, both the Dillard photo and the Hughes film show BRW and Junior Jarman on the fifth floor. The photos taken after the event are re-creations to determine the positions BRW, Jarman and Norman occupied when they were on the fifth floor. The accounts of the Norman hearing three shells dropping is confirmed by Junior Jarman and I believe also by BRW.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

This is from Harold Norman's affidavit of 12/4/1963;

Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

You were saying!!!




Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 27, 2019, 05:35:21 PM
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You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.    Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made. Just that fact of pictures of them in some sort of re-enactment is misleading and does not establish anything but pure attempts to manipulate, as it apparently worked on you.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. He can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special Agent Carter was stretching what Norman told him or Norman is changing his story making him a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassin.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, [/b][/u]

Excellent Mr K.....   Harold Norman is on record as mimicking the sounds he said that he heard that day....( He never heard any such sounds, but LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to lie, and so he did)   

Norman described the sounds a BOOM....Click, clack .....Boom ....click, clack, .... Boom.... Click, clack.....and he swore that he heard the shells hit the floor above his head...

If Norman  had heard shells falling on the floor he would have described the sounds he heard as BOOM....Click, PLINK,..  clack .....Boom ....click, Plink, .. clack, .... Boom.... Click,  PLINK .. clack....

Norman lied...Just as LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to do.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 27, 2019, 10:03:15 PM
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According to Brennan's testimony he was in position by that time. So we have competing versions.

Look, if you want to debate and discuss BRW first day statement then let's also debate and discuss Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 statement to the SS. I think it's it's only fair.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you. would, there, please.

Brennan watched them pick up the man and then took up position. The ambulance left about 12.25. That how I arrived at my estimate of Brennan taking position sitting on the wall. How did you arrive at your version?

I am happy to move onto other differences  but as I said it is difficult to determine our differences unless the common ground is established.

Williams pre-assassination movements, as intimated in his first day statement, is consistent with the various statements of Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC.

Does anyone believe this statement to be false?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 27, 2019, 11:29:03 PM
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You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

From which post did I select Brennan as you claim? In your reply #156 to my post #153 You are the one that includes Brennan. So get your facts straight. BTW, both the Dillard photo and the Hughes film show BRW and Junior Jarman on the fifth floor. The photos taken after the event are re-creations to determine the positions BRW, Jarman and Norman occupied when they were on the fifth floor. The accounts of the Norman hearing three shells dropping is confirmed by Junior Jarman and I believe also by BRW.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

This is from Harold Norman's affidavit of 12/4/1963;

Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

You were saying!!!
I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 27, 2019, 11:32:48 PM
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Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you. would, there, please.

Brennan watched them pick up the man and then took up position. The ambulance left about 12.25. That how I arrived at my estimate of Brennan taking position sitting on the wall. How did you arrive at your version?

I am happy to move onto other differences  but as I said it is difficult to determine our differences unless the common ground is established.

Williams pre-assassination movements, as intimated in his first day statement, is consistent with the various statements of Jarman and Norman prior to their appearance before the WC.

Does anyone believe this statement to be false?

Brennan did not sit on the retaining wall until after the epileptic was taken away by the ambulance as you believe. He saw the man having an epileptic fit before he sat on the ledge. He then assumed that he had been picked up by an ambulance.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
141

were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.........

Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination...........

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store............







 

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 28, 2019, 12:03:14 AM
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I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

This is my original post;

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JF" post #153


The several witnesses who either saw the sniper shooting (A), part of the gun being withdrawn(B), what appeared to be something that could be a gun(C), or movement after the third shot(D) are;

1) Howard L. Brennan(A)

2) Amos Lee Euins(A)

3) Robert H. Jackson(B)

4) Mrs. Earle Cabell(C)

5) James N. Crawford(D)


The Rowlands, in plural as in Mr. and Mrs. Rowland, didn't see ****. Arnold Rowlands claims are about as bogus as a $3 bill. Mrs. Rowland never saw anything that her husband claimed and even added that Arnold tends to exaggerate things.


Brennan never claimed to have seen a man with a gun before the shots and his only discrepancy has to do with whether he could have identified Oswald as the man he saw shooting from the sixth floor SE corner window. He first claimed that it could have been Oswald but then later clarified his statement to the WC and declared that "in all sincerity" he could have identified Oswald during the lineup but didn't so because he feared he was the only witness at the time who could have identified the shooter and, fearing that it might be a Communist conspiracy, decided not to positively identify Oswald in the lineup. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 28, 2019, 12:08:20 AM
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Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, [/b][/u]

Excellent Mr K.....   Harold Norman is on record as mimicking the sounds he said that he heard that day....( He never heard any such sounds, but LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to lie, and so he did)   

Norman described the sounds a BOOM....Click, clack .....Boom ....click, clack, .... Boom.... Click, clack.....and he swore that he heard the shells hit the floor above his head...

If Norman  had heard shells falling on the floor he would have described the sounds he heard as BOOM....Click, PLINK,..  clack .....Boom ....click, Plink, .. clack, .... Boom.... Click,  PLINK .. clack....

Norman lied...Just as LBJ's cover up committee wanted him to do.....

You're describing the sounds you hear as your miniscule brain attempts to think, Foghorn.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2019, 12:12:45 AM
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I never said that you said Brennen, but what you said was this-

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JFK."


So then, I said "you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous".


I brought Brennen and I never said you did. I used what Brennen claims to try to pin down the 3  who were on 5th floor, specifically Norman's testimony.  I have problems with Brennen(who I brought up) and problems with the 3 clowns on the 5th floor(who you brought up).

When you say "several witnesses" what the hell does that mean? Does it mean you get to cherry-pick a few out of "several"? I'm asking because if you take, for example, your 3 clowns on the 5th floor then I will add Brennen plus the Rowlands for argument's sake, all to show they their claims conflict with one another's.

1- The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight
2-the Rowlands claim to see a man with a gun at one point and notices another man on the same floor well before the assassination dismissing it thinking they were security
3 Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

I don't believe that HB said he saw the "High Powered rifle ie;  (HUNTING RIFLE) before the shooting....He said he saw the 175 pound man who was dressed in light colored khaki clothes AIMING the HIGH POWERED rifle DURING the shooting and he saw him place the rifle down at his side after the shooting....

His testimony was intended to be confusing....LBJ's cover up committee wanted us pissants to be confused.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 28, 2019, 12:39:56 AM
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  The 3 clowns on 5th floor make a claim of sound not sight 
Who was it that called them Larry, Curly, and Moe....wasn't it Howard Gee?
 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2019, 01:01:51 AM
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You're describing the sounds you hear as your miniscule brain attempts to think, Foghorn.

OK ...Genius....  Did Norman say he heard the shells hitting the floor...A simple yes or no.... 

And IF he did actually hear spent shells hitting the floor ....and he said he heard the bolt being operated ...

Then wouldn't he have heard    Boom...Click ....Plink ...clack ....................Boom  etc ;   

Isn't that true? .....( I hope you say no.... and further display your dishonesty.)....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 28, 2019, 01:06:58 AM
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This is my original post;

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JF" post #153


The several witnesses who either saw the sniper shooting (A), part of the gun being withdrawn(B), what appeared to be something that could be a gun(C), or movement after the third shot(D) are;

1) Howard L. Brennan(A)

2) Amos Lee Euins(A)

3) Robert H. Jackson(B)

4) Mrs. Earle Cabell(C)

5) James N. Crawford(D)


The Rowlands, in plural as in Mr. and Mrs. Rowland, didn't see ****. Arnold Rowlands claims are about as bogus as a $3 bill. Mrs. Rowland never saw anything that her husband claimed and even added that Arnold tends to exaggerate things.


Brennan never claimed to have seen a man with a gun before the shots and his only discrepancy has to do with whether he could have identified Oswald as the man he saw shooting from the sixth floor SE corner window. He first claimed that it could have been Oswald but then later clarified his statement to the WC and declared that "in all sincerity" he could have identified Oswald during the lineup but didn't so because he feared he was the only witness at the time who could have identified the shooter and, fearing that it might be a Communist conspiracy, decided not to positively identify Oswald in the lineup.

Arnie initially said the figure in the west window was about 10-12 feet (or so) back of the window, but later changed that to 3-5 feet or so. This is one reason why the investigators interviewed him often, and checked his backstory thoroughly. Of course these characters see nothing but sinister intent.

And yes, Arnie himself said he pointed out the man to his wife, but by the time see looked the guy was gone from view.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 28, 2019, 01:56:28 AM
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Brennan did not sit on the retaining wall until after the epileptic was taken away by the ambulance as you believe. He saw the man having an epileptic fit before he sat on the ledge. He then assumed that he had been picked up by an ambulance.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?
Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.
Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to--
Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Houston
Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
141

were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.........

Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination...........

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store............

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts).

Why go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

And you refuse to respond with an opinion regarding the factual statement posed relating to Williams first day transcript. Seems intentional, why? Fear?

Happy to discuss Norman by the way whenever you are ready.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 28, 2019, 03:13:03 AM
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This is my original post;

"And it just so happens that several people saw a sniper either shoot from that window, saw a rifle or what looked like a rifle being retracted from the window, three witnesses who were one floor below hear shots coming from right above them one of which heard the distinct sounds of shells hitting the floor above him and of the rifle bolt being operated. That's called a mass imaginary illusion. The one who is imagining is that one who refuses to accept that there was actually a sniper in the SN shooting at JF" post #153


The several witnesses who either saw the sniper shooting (A), part of the gun being withdrawn(B), what appeared to be something that could be a gun(C), or movement after the third shot(D) are;

1) Howard L. Brennan(A)

2) Amos Lee Euins(A)

3) Robert H. Jackson(B)

4) Mrs. Earle Cabell(C)

5) James N. Crawford(D)


The Rowlands, in plural as in Mr. and Mrs. Rowland, didn't see ****. Arnold Rowlands claims are about as bogus as a $3 bill. Mrs. Rowland never saw anything that her husband claimed and even added that Arnold tends to exaggerate things.


Brennan never claimed to have seen a man with a gun before the shots and his only discrepancy has to do with whether he could have identified Oswald as the man he saw shooting from the sixth floor SE corner window. He first claimed that it could have been Oswald but then later clarified his statement to the WC and declared that "in all sincerity" he could have identified Oswald during the lineup but didn't so because he feared he was the only witness at the time who could have identified the shooter and, fearing that it might be a Communist conspiracy, decided not to positively identify Oswald in the lineup.
Who said these witnesses didn't see anything?

You are a sensitive one when challenged. This would be a lot easier if you, with all the witnesses of your choosing, would come up with a time the first shot was fired. If you are certain of your witnesses and their testimony then you should not have a problem coming up with a time of the first shot being fired.

 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 28, 2019, 06:34:02 AM
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The link to the 5th floor diagram and the NW corner of the 5th floor is now available in my post you replied to. From their positions in the SW corner they could not see anyone coming down the stairs

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

The three amigos couldn't be seen by a sniper coming down the stairs but I'm sure they could have been seen if the sniper decided to go into the fifth floor to do whatever you're assuming he would do and I mentioned that I was speculating so whatever I posted should be taken with that in mind. What is verifiable from their testimony is that they decided to leave the fifth floor because it wasn't safe (and I'm paraphrasing here). What's the point of all this speculation about what the three amigos did on the fifth floor and what they should have done?

Point out where I'm assuming anything. FFS, is your memory so short that you forget that I just suggested that one should not assume what any given witness woulda/shoulda/coulda done?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 28, 2019, 07:00:44 AM
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Brennen who claims to have seen a man with a gun before during and after (I should note Brennen in his testimony, affidavits, and public interviews states variations but its confusing)

I don't believe that HB said he saw the "High Powered rifle ie;  (HUNTING RIFLE) before the shooting....He said he saw the 175 pound man who was dressed in light colored khaki clothes AIMING the HIGH POWERED rifle DURING the shooting and he saw him place the rifle down at his side after the shooting....

His testimony was intended to be confusing....LBJ's cover up committee wanted us pissants to be confused.....
Walt, I am referring to a public interview Brennen gave with serious wordplay though I always thought he was a convenient plant because he is shady. On the other hand, if he is just goofy but honest it's hard to understand when he became aware of a man in the window

Brennen--said--   "this man the same man I had saw prior to the president's arrival was in the window and taking aim for his last shot after he fired last or the third shot of he didn't seem to be in a great rush hurry he seemed to pause for a moment to see if for sure he accomplished his purpose and he brought the gun back to a resting upright position as though he was satisfied."
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 28, 2019, 08:24:25 AM
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OK ...Genius....  Did Norman say he heard the shells hitting the floor...A simple yes or no.... 

And IF he did actually hear spent shells hitting the floor ....and he said he heard the bolt being operated ...

Then wouldn't he have heard    Boom...Click ....Plink ...clack ....................Boom  etc ;   

Isn't that true? .....( I hope you say no.... and further display your dishonesty.)....

Boom click-click X 3

Brennan did not say 175 pounds
He said 160 to 170

Stop lying, Wallyburger

@Newbies:

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 28, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
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Boom click-click X 3

Brennan did not say 175 pounds
He said 160 to 170

Stop lying, Wallyburger

@Newbies:


Brennan did not say 175 pounds
He said 160 to 170


On line 17 of Brennan's affidavit for 11/22/ 63 he described the man....

Quote..."  About 165 to 175 pounds.....He had on light colored clothing, but not a suit" ...unquote.

Lee Oswald weighed 131 pounds.....  He was Skinny.    5'9"......  175 pounds is stocky....    It's unlikely that a skinny 131 pound man would be described as weighing 175 pounds...   

Extract your head Chappie......   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 29, 2019, 12:13:10 PM
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Arnie initially said the figure in the west window was about 10-12 feet (or so) back of the window, but later changed that to 3-5 feet or so. This is one reason why the investigators interviewed him often, and checked his backstory thoroughly. Of course these characters see nothing but sinister intent.

And yes, Arnie himself said he pointed out the man to his wife, but by the time see looked the guy was gone from view.

Arnold Rowland is trotted out as if his testimony corroborates any of their kooky claims just as that of Roger Craig. It's all  BS: but it makes for an interesting tale.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 29, 2019, 12:19:26 PM
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Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts).

Why go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

And you refuse to respond with an opinion regarding the factual statement posed relating to Williams first day transcript. Seems intentional, why? Fear?

Happy to discuss Norman by the way whenever you are ready.

Fear! of what? I've already provided more than enough material on what I think of BRW testimony so that you can draw your own conclusions. Norman said he went up at 12:15 before his WC testimony. Since you put so much weight on the pre-WC testimony accounts then do so with Normam, or are you scared! Booooohhhooooo!!!!!
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 29, 2019, 12:24:19 PM
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Who said these witnesses didn't see anything?

You are a sensitive one when challenged. This would be a lot easier if you, with all the witnesses of your choosing, would come up with a time the first shot was fired. If you are certain of your witnesses and their testimony then you should not have a problem coming up with a time of the first shot being fired.

 

I've already told you that the first shots were fired at z157-160. Now figure out the time span between when the Hughes film cuts off and z157-60 and you'll have your answer. I'm not going to work out the math for you since I'm not interested in whatever it is that you're trying to prove.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 29, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
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Point out where I'm assuming anything. FFS, is your memory so short that you forget that I just suggested that one should not assume what any given witness woulda/shoulda/coulda done?

You're assuming that the sixth floor sniper could have gone to the fifth floor and that the three amigos would still be in danger. What does FFS mean?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 29, 2019, 02:03:49 PM
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I've already told you that the first shots were fired at z157-160. Now figure out the time span between when the Hughes film cuts off and z157-60 and you'll have your answer. I'm not going to work out the math for you since I'm not interested in whatever it is that you're trying to prove.
That's ok because your subjective view creates an impossible narrative. You base the time of the first shot on nothing except cobbling together pieces of nonsense. No one sees a man in the window, out of the window firing and then back in the window. Sorry but if there was a man firing a weapon(one they can prove was used, which they can't prove it was a Mauser or a  Mannlicher Carcano) then there is only enough time to take one potshot, that does not mean 2 or 3 it means 1 as in 1.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 29, 2019, 02:35:11 PM
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Fear! of what? I've already provided more than enough material on what I think of BRW testimony so that you can draw your own conclusions. Norman said he went up at 12:15 before his WC testimony. Since you put so much weight on the pre-WC testimony accounts then do so with Normam, or are you scared! Booooohhhooooo!!!!!

Seems you are incapable of responding when your claims are proven incorrect. I just posted the proof that Brennan did not take position as early as you claimed.....also your offering of the 6th floor motorcade timeline that was proven incorrect. I provided the primary source, something that took me about 2 minutes to find on the web. Decker's call about Main from the police transcripts. You simply ignore those offerings and now you cherrypick Norman's 12.15 call as if it is gospel and impacts in any way on the timing analysis. Yet you think the same witness made up the memory of a Main Street call. Do you trust the guy or not.....or simply when he can be used in a pathetic attempt to nullify every other indicator that places them leaving much later.

You still refuse to agree or disagree with the notion that Jarman and Norman supported Williams first day statement. Seems when your "beliefs" are challenged and you are unable to mount anything like a sound foundation for you them and your "thoughts". They simply have the Oswald did it alone, Rowland was some sort of deluded clairvoyant and Craig the bald-faced liar, filter applied.

I prefer to live in the world where corroborated facts form the basis of meaningful debate. The ironic thing is my analysis does nothing to disprove the LN scenario. At least in a previous discussion John Mytton attempted to understand the ramifications of the assembled evidence and eventually concluded that Williams likely saw Oswald in the SN and was on the 6th floor after 12.25.

I visit this forum, (in the now apparently forlorn hope), to learn more about the topic, discuss and debate. I now hold no hope of any such meaningful outcomes eventuating with interactions with you, or any of your ilk.

I shall leave you in a state of bliss, with your religious LN convictions intact.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 30, 2019, 06:38:20 AM
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I've already told you that the first shots were fired at z157-160. Now figure out the time span between when the Hughes film cuts off and z157-60 and you'll have your answer. I'm not going to work out the math for you since I'm not interested in whatever it is that you're trying to prove.
" First Shots" ??? Are you suggesting there were a set of shots like maybe from more than 1 location? Oscar, do you feel guilty in your heart, if so, let it all out.
Z157-60??? Be serious, that is a lifetime away from any shot, any means pick from  6 options which really would only be 1....that's right ...the first bullet 1 and any of the 6 bullets depending on the 6 official stories meaning 6 versions. It is confusing to read but it also was intended to be that way so people like you would throw up your hands right away selling your soul to the devil instead of simply challenging the government on just one of the hundreds of pieces of tainted evidence === Lazy
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on January 30, 2019, 10:55:25 AM
Oswald locations, according to WC:

11:50-6th floor, in the vicinity of the SE corner, "kicking some boxes" according to Charles Givens.

12:00- 1st floor, by the rear elevators, by Eddie Piper. Oswald told Piper either "going out" or "going back up"

12:15- 2nd floor lunchroom, seen by Carolyn Arnold. No conversation occured however.


12:31:30 (approx 90 sec post shots) seen by DPD officer Baker, and Roy Truly, in the 2nd floor lunchroom


12:32 approx: Seen entering the back door of the 2nd floor office, by Mrs Robert A. Reid, who herself was entering the front door of
the office at 2 minutes post shots, according to Mr. Belins "stopwatch" trial time renactment. Oswald was not wearing his brown shirt nor his jacket, was only in his white T-shirt, and was carrying an unopened coke.


12:32:25 (2 minutes 25 sec post shots), Oswald exits the front door of the 2nd floor office.His jacket and brown shirt have been left in the 2nd floor lunchroom presumably, the last place seen wearing at least the brown shirt, by Baker, at approx 1 minute earlier.


12:32:30 (2 minutes 30 sec post shots) Oswald seen by reporter Pierce Allman on the 1st floor in the lobby. Allman had just run into the TSBD, before it got locked down by DPD officer Barnett, who was certain it was not later than 3 min post shots when he locked
 the door.


12:33- Oswald has managed to exit the TSBD, with both his jacket and his brown shirt on, getting out before 3 minutes post shots, where both rear and front doors are secured. 


Now the anomallies from the above timeline:

Givens taking an elevator to 6th floor just 5 minutes approx after Oswald has shouted to send one up, and then Oswald does not take the opportunity when the elevator does arrive, to ride down to 1st floor with Givens? Instead, Oswald chooses to walk down 6 staircases?

Speaking to Eddie Piper at 12:00. Was it "Im going back up" or was it: "I am going out?"  It doesnt make much sense to have just come down 6 flights of staircases just to tell Piper something insignificant as "going back up". Because if Oswald is in the TSBD, anywhere, Truly will send message if Oswald needed. The more probable statement is "going out" and said so to Piper so that Truly would  NOT ask Piper to go find Oswald, since Oswald is "Out temporarily".

Why did Oswald go "out" of TSBD at 12:00? Either to go buy lunch, or get lunch out of that 24"package, or to meet with someone, concerning that 24"package.

12:15 sighting of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Arnold Rowland, also, at 12:15 is observing a man with a rifle that appears to be a 30.06 rifle with a large scope, standing for a few seconds at the 6th fllor South WEST window. Rowland at this point tells is wife and asks her if she can see the man. The man moves away however, before Mrs Rowland can see him.

12:32 (2 minutes post shots and 30 seconds after being seen by DPD officer Baker at 90 sec post shots)- Mrs Reid has somehow enttered TSBD front lobby and its COMPLETELY empty. NO one is there. Just Mrs Reid all by herself. Goes up the front staircase, and enters 2nd floor office and sees Oswald entering the back door of that office.  Oswald exits about 2 min 25 sec post shots, so if he returns to lunchroom immediately, using the 80 ft length hallway, and 20 more feet into lunchroom, that's 100 ft and then returns to lobby, that's 140 ft, plus the 20 step front stair, that would have precluded any meeting Peirce Allman just entering the front door, because the time would be 3 min 25 sec post shots, well past Barnetts "certain" time of not later than 3 min, securing front door.


Note, this Mrs Reid encounter with Oswald is compounded by the anomally of the Malcolm Couch film supposedly starting not unitl 24 sec post shots, but actually when cross referenced with Wiegman cutting his camera on the Grassy knoll at approx. 13 sec posts shots, this event captured by Couch, as Wiegman is seen in the background on the GK 8 sec into the Couch film. This means Couch film would have had to begin approx. 5 to 6 sec post shots to have recorded Wiegman "turning", thus cutting his film of the 2 persons on the Pergola and restarting to film the Newmans.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 30, 2019, 01:29:31 PM
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That's ok because your subjective view creates an impossible narrative. You base the time of the first shot on nothing except cobbling together pieces of nonsense. No one sees a man in the window, out of the window firing and then back in the window. Sorry but if there was a man firing a weapon(one they can prove was used, which they can't prove it was a Mauser or a  Mannlicher Carcano) then there is only enough time to take one potshot, that does not mean 2 or 3 it means 1 as in 1.

I see. So, because you can't figure out the position of when the Hughes fil cuts off relative to the corresponding zframe, and you believe the witness testimony that sees a sniper firing from the SN, three witnesses sitting just below the sixth floor hearing three shots of which one describes hearing the sounds of three movements of a rifle bolt and three empty hulls dropping on the floor and other witnesses seeing a rifle barrel, what appears to be a rifle barrel or movement in the SN window, is just nonsense because they can't prove what type of rifle it was therefore there's no need for a discussion. Talk about creating an impossible narrative.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 30, 2019, 02:25:59 PM
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I see. So, because you can't figure out the position of when the Hughes fil cuts off relative to the corresponding zframe, and you believe the witness testimony that sees a sniper firing from the SN, three witnesses sitting just below the sixth floor hearing three shots of which one describes hearing the sounds of three movements of a rifle bolt and three empty hulls dropping on the floor and other witnesses seeing a rifle barrel, what appears to be a rifle barrel or movement in the SN window, is just nonsense because they can't prove what type of rifle it was therefore there's no need for a discussion. Talk about creating an impossible narrative.
At z157-60 there is no visual evidence, but of course, 3 individuals claim to hear all this bs when none of them can prove this. Nothing supports their claim. Nothing supports where you have chosen to say the gunfire started. You would believe anything. Use your head.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 30, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
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Seems you are incapable of responding when your claims are proven incorrect. I just posted the proof that Brennan did not take position as early as you claimed.....also your offering of the 6th floor motorcade timeline that was proven incorrect. I provided the primary source, something that took me about 2 minutes to find on the web. Decker's call about Main from the police transcripts. You simply ignore those offerings and now you cherrypick Norman's 12.15 call as if it is gospel and impacts in any way on the timing analysis. Yet you think the same witness made up the memory of a Main Street call. Do you trust the guy or not.....or simply when he can be used in a pathetic attempt to nullify every other indicator that places them leaving much later.

You still refuse to agree or disagree with the notion that Jarman and Norman supported Williams first day statement. Seems when your "beliefs" are challenged and you are unable to mount anything like a sound foundation for you them and your "thoughts". They simply have the Oswald did it alone, Rowland was some sort of deluded clairvoyant and Craig the bald-faced liar, filter applied.

I prefer to live in the world where corroborated facts form the basis of meaningful debate. The ironic thing is my analysis does nothing to disprove the LN scenario. At least in a previous discussion John Mytton attempted to understand the ramifications of the assembled evidence and eventually concluded that Williams likely saw Oswald in the SN and was on the 6th floor after 12.25.

I visit this forum, (in the now apparently forlorn hope), to learn more about the topic, discuss and debate. I now hold no hope of any such meaningful outcomes eventuating with interactions with you, or any of your ilk.

I shall leave you in a state of bliss, with your religious LN convictions intact.

1) You have not proven the ambulance picked up the man with the epileptic fit before he sat on the retaining wall. The fact is the opposite. Brennan's own testimony describes him watching the man having an epileptic fit before he moves to the retaining wall and he doesn't even acknowledge seeing him being picked up by the ambulance. Them could be the others he saw before the ambulance arrived.

2)The motorcade timeline of it arriving at Main St. shows that it occurred before the 12:22 timestamp and I'll go with the 6th Floor Museum timeline of 12:21 with full confidence that they are much better equipped to determine the timeline than you or I.

3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

4)  IMO, you have formed a theory and use only that information which will conform to that theory disregarding evidence and common sense which would test that theory i.e..we can a difference of opinion on a matter which, as you said, does nothing to disprove that there was a sniper at the SN. To continuously haggle  over a timeline of which has zero effect on an outcome may be your interpretation of engaging in meaningful research but I just see it as a temporary diversion into an interesting topic worth of only limited discussion.

5) Since you like to flaunt living in a world were evidence is important in a discussion it's really surprising that you would even entertain the possibility that both Arnold Rowland and Roger Craig could be used to corroborate anything other than they're just a couple of liars.

6)IMO, John Mytton is a rational person with a great amount of knowledge on this subject but it doesn't mean that his decision to agree in whole or in part with your theory plays any part on how I arrive at my conclusions. Bringing John into the discussion might put a feather in your cap and be used in an attempt to bolster your credentials but it's completely meaningless when it comes to how I analyze the subject. Now if you were to bring up an expert on a particular field like Haag, Larry Sturdivan, Dr. Michael Baden..etc to bolster your argument then I would take their views and conclusions very seriously. No offense John but I didn't bring you into this debate.

7) I don't believe for a minute that you're presence in this forum is for the purpose stated.   IMO, you are just like the other (or most) of the CTers who are only interested in letting the unwashed know that from the cloud you inhabit everything can be seen clear as daylight and that the unwashed are stuck on the ground, walking through the muck and unable to be enlightened by your superior intellect and vision.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 30, 2019, 02:46:38 PM
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At z157-60 there is no visual evidence, but of course, 3 individuals claim to hear all this bs when none of them can prove this. Nothing supports their claim. Nothing supports where you have chosen to say the gunfire started. You would believe anything. Use your head.



Study the Zapruder film, study JBC testimony, study Rosemary Willis movements and see what Vincent Bugliosi has to say about Rosemary Willis in the notes section, pages 313-24. That would require that you stick your head out of the sand and would also force you to disregard the many blatant misrepresentations and lies that  make up the majority of the kook book library and filmography.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2019, 03:27:39 PM
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1) You have not proven the ambulance picked up the man with the epileptic fit before he sat on the retaining wall. The fact is the opposite. Brennan's own testimony describes him watching the man having an epileptic fit before he moves to the retaining wall and he doesn't even acknowledge seeing him being picked up by the ambulance. Them could be the others he saw before the ambulance arrived.

2)The motorcade timeline of it arriving at Main St. shows that it occurred before the 12:22 timestamp and I'll go with the 6th Floor Museum timeline of 12:21 with full confidence that they are much better equipped to determine the timeline than you or I.

3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

4)  IMO, you have formed a theory and use only that information which will conform to that theory disregarding evidence and common sense which would test that theory i.e..we can a difference of opinion on a matter which, as you said, does nothing to disprove that there was a sniper at the SN. To continuously haggle  over a timeline of which has zero effect on an outcome may be your interpretation of engaging in meaningful research but I just see it as a temporary diversion into an interesting topic worth of only limited discussion.

5) Since you like to flaunt living in a world were evidence is important in a discussion it's really surprising that you would even entertain the possibility that both Arnold Rowland and Roger Craig could be used to corroborate anything other than they're just a couple of liars.

6)IMO, John Mytton is a rational person with a great amount of knowledge on this subject but it doesn't mean that his decision to agree in whole or in part with your theory plays any part on how I arrive at my conclusions. Bringing John into the discussion might put a feather in your cap and be used in an attempt to bolster your credentials but it's completely meaningless when it comes to how I analyze the subject. Now if you were to bring up an expert on a particular field like Haag, Larry Sturdivan, Dr. Michael Baden..etc to bolster your argument then I would take their views and conclusions very seriously. No offense John but I didn't bring you into this debate.

7) I don't believe for a minute that you're presence in this forum is for the purpose stated.   IMO, you are just like the other (or most) of the CTers who are only interested in letting the unwashed know that from the cloud you inhabit everything can be seen clear as daylight and that the unwashed are stuck on the ground, walking through the muck and unable to be enlightened by your superior intellect and vision.


3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

Junior Jarman said they heard the radio on the Police motorcycle report that the Motorcade was approaching Main Street ...  And we know that occurred at 12:22....

A couple of minutes later Jarman and Norman decided that they had enough time to go to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade.....

They passed through the first floor shipping department at about 12:26......And Lee Oswald saw them.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 30, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
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3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

Junior Jarman said they heard the radio on the Police motorcycle report that the Motorcade was approaching Main Street ...  And we know that occurred at 12:22....

A couple of minutes later Jarman and Norman decided that they had enough time to go to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade.....

They passed through the first floor shipping department at about 12:26......And Lee Oswald saw them.....

Show were Junior Jarman said he heard a motorcycle report...?..they also went around to the building

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2019, 04:25:50 PM
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Show were Junior Jarman said he heard a motorcycle report...?..they also went around to the building

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Thank you for confirming that Junior Jarman,and Shorty Norman, walked across the first floor shipping department. They said they entered the back door on the first floor and walked to the west elevator....  Therefore they walked across the first floor......And Lee Oswald saw them. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 30, 2019, 08:46:18 PM
From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 30, 2019, 09:47:49 PM
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From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

Colin, I never thought about Jarman and Norman in conjunction with the ambulance across the street from them....

When that ambulance departed it would have been a natural point for them to depart for the fifth floor.......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 30, 2019, 11:43:39 PM
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Colin, I never thought about Jarman and Norman in conjunction with the ambulance across the street from them....

When that ambulance departed it would have been a natural point for them to depart for the fifth floor.......

Was a convenient timestamp that should have been asked a number of significant witnesses......unfortunately was not used effectively.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 31, 2019, 12:20:54 AM
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From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.

The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 31, 2019, 12:32:48 AM
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Thank you for confirming that Junior Jarman,and Shorty Norman, walked across the first floor shipping department. They said they entered the back door on the first floor and walked to the west elevator....  Therefore they walked across the first floor......And Lee Oswald saw them.

Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD. And you said Junior heard a motorcycle report of the location of the motorcade. I'll ask again. Show me where Jarman said that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 31, 2019, 01:42:39 AM
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Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD. And you said Junior heard a motorcycle report of the location of the motorcade. I'll ask again. Show me where Jarman said that.

Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD.
 
If you knew what you were talking about and were an honest man, then You would know that Jarman and Norman could not have "walked along the edge of the north wall"  because the elevators occupied that space....  And since they walked to the WEST elevator, they had to have walked across the first floor shipping room....

So even though you took the dishonest cowards dodge, you have admitted that Jarman and Norman walked across the area where they would have been in full view of Lee Oswald....And he said that he saw them.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on January 31, 2019, 05:41:58 AM
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The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?

The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on January 31, 2019, 07:52:06 AM
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Study the Zapruder film, study JBC testimony, study Rosemary Willis movements and see what Vincent Bugliosi has to say about Rosemary Willis in the notes section, pages 313-24. That would require that you stick your head out of the sand and would also force you to disregard the many blatant misrepresentations and lies that  make up the majority of the kook book library and filmography.
Why would I study the Z-film, I mean, using your adopted narrative, LHO went to the Soviet Union that means he's guilty. Then there's this guy named Abraham Zapruder who was born in USSR. where's the consistancy?
Hughes film shows Police motorcycle escorts right beside the Presidential limo on Houston Street, but when the Zapruder film starts, the Police escorts coming around the corner from Houston Street are amazingly without the limo.
Then out of thin air the Presidential limo appears between the escorts  on Elm Street. Was David Copperfield involved? Only 7 yrs old at the time, but get this, his family was from the same region of the USSR as Zapruder was.
Zapruder had that clothing business, and David's father was a Haberdasher.
So Oscar, did David Copperfield make that limo appear out of thin air that day in 1963 at the ripe age of 7 or what? What does it matter anyway? Well, because Oscar would believe anything.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 01, 2019, 09:15:48 AM
If Oswald had been in the Domino room at 12:25, he must have come down, from the 2nd floor lunchroom, abandoning his favorite place to eat alone occasionally, just after Carolyn Arnold saw him still in the lunchroom possibly as late as 12:17. So why would Oswald leave his favorite place, to go down to Domino room? Was he worried that since Carolyn was one the 2nd floor office women, that she might inform Mrs Reid , the supervisor, that one of the workers was using the lunchroom instead of the Domino room, the designated place for floor workers to eat lunch?

Where exactly is Oswald when the shots are fired?

The timeline for Mrs Reid meeting Oswald 30 seconds after Baker Truly  saw Oswald in the lunchroom, doesnt makes much sense to me, because of Oswald being seen in only a white T shirt, opening the door and seeing Mrs Reid, and CONTINUING into the office, and walkiing slowly, and just with an unopened coke too. This does not quite fit the logic that Oswald is supposed to be trying to get ouf the TSBD asap and was only interrupted by Baker and Truly in trying to accomplish that task.

This is why I suspect the Malcom Couch film is a composite film of the seqment of Couch film capturing Wiegman on the Grassy Knoll at approx 13 sec post shots, by reference of Wiegmans own film cut at that point, and  another seqment of film by Couch or someone else, of Baker running to the TSBD. They had to do this to establish that Mrs Reid did not return into TSBD BEFORE Baker did, and that Mrs Reid may have  started her return in to TSBD at about 10 sec post shots, if taking her WC testimony  as reference to a specitc event: People BEGINNING to fall to the ground.


In the Malcom Couch film, supposedly beginning at 24 sec post shots, there is about a 5 sec pan past what appears to be Mrs Reid along with other office women. Mr.Campbell is no longer anywhere near Mrs Reid at this point in Couch film. But Mr Campbell can be seen running by the Stemmons freeway sign, at about same time as Couch captures Weigman turning on the Grassy knoll. This is at 8 sec into Couch film.
Mrs Reid does a total 180 degree turn, faces the TSBD and it looks like shes about to start back in, as is another 'stout" woman does. . But Couch pans away past Mrs Reid, by about 5 secs into his film. At approx 8 sec mark, captures Wiegman, another cameraman, on the Grassy Knoll. This point in Couch film cannot be 30 sec post last shot, because Wiegman turning around at that point, means he has just CUT his film sequence, which from the time of jumping off his car, after 2 shots fired, and cutting the film 15 secs from jumping from the car, means that cut occurs approx. 13 sec post last shot fired.


For Couch to have managed to record Weigman on the Grassy Knoll TURNING AROUND, ie: meaing, at the point in Wiegmans film, where Wiegman CUTS his film after approx 13-15 secs from having jumped from his car, and that event in Couch film occurs at the 8 sec mark into Couch film, defacto means that Couch MUST have started his film as early as 5-7 sec post last shot.


The only other possibility, is that Wiegman cut his film at the 15 sec post last shot, and then just stood there looking at the same people he had just been filming, for another 10 seconds. This imo, does NOT seem plausible for a professional cameraman to be doing, wasting time not fliming.


Since Malcom Couch stated, that even 10 seconds is a LONG TIME in the camera business,  I have to wonder if Wiegman would do nothing for another 10 seconds other that just keep staring at the 2 subjects he has just stopped filming.


If anyone else is more of an expert in this Wiegman vs Couch film and can confirm with some statement from Weigman that he DID take another 10 seconds pause after cutting his camera, before he turned around, and restarted his camera to film the seqment of the Newmans on the ground, this would HELP ME TREMENDOUSLY because rigtht now, its a true DILEMMA to resolve.


















Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 01, 2019, 02:43:36 PM
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Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD.
 
If you knew what you were talking about and were an honest man, then You would know that Jarman and Norman could not have "walked along the edge of the north wall"  because the elevators occupied that space....  And since they walked to the WEST elevator, they had to have walked across the first floor shipping room....

So even though you took the dishonest cowards dodge, you have admitted that Jarman and Norman walked across the area where they would have been in full view of Lee Oswald....And he said that he saw them.

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 01, 2019, 03:02:36 PM
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I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

Oscar, you are quoting what people say Oswald said, NOT what he actually said, so your arguments about what he said are completely debatable. How you can say "beyond a doubt" that Oswald's was lying, shows your bias.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 01, 2019, 03:36:13 PM
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The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that.

The salient point that you're trying to establish has no bearing on the outcome of events that day but I'll entertain you by producing a timeline that firmly establishes that Brennan's recollections of when he was sitting on the concrete ledge is pretty accurate. Let's begin with the time Brennan said he finished lunch;

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm

From there he went to Houston St. and Elm St. This walk took him approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up


Here's the amended portion of the DPD radio log transcript (I have omitted only the portion which  is inconsequential)


Caller:                                                                      Conversation:

289 (not assigned)                                                            Give us an ambulance, 100 N. Houston St. - epileptic seizure

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                  10-4

289 (not assigned)                                                      Make it code - 3 (Emergency Red Lights and Sirens)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                   Be a white? (12:19)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATTER)                  What's your location?

606 (ambulance)                                                        About Hardwood and Cedar Springs now

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4 Code 3. (Emergency-red lights and sirens) on a signal 28 (emergency sick call) 100, N. Houston 12:20

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4, 606 (Ambulance), 12:24

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    606 (Ambulance)

606 (Ambulance)                                                         We are en route Parkland (garbled). This is a signal 16 (Investigation injured person)


By 12:24 the ambulance was already on it's way to Parkland. This falls pretty much in line with Brennan's timeline. He was sitting on the concrete ledge no later than 12:24.

What we can agree on is that BRW was not at the SN doing the shooting. Do you agree with both Givens and Danny Arce that BRW was not with them and Jarman before Jarman and Givens left?

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with...?

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.
Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch? I don't know; I didn't see him. Who went outdoors with you? Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles. You stood there how long before the parade came along?
Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere. around there. I am not too sure about that.


Looks like Arce and Givens had to be in on the cover up too


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 01, 2019, 03:41:17 PM
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Oscar, you are quoting what people say Oswald said, NOT what he actually said, so your arguments about what he said are completely debatable. How you can say "beyond a doubt" that Oswald's was lying, shows your bias.

These are not just random people of the street. These people were in on the interrogation. What is it that Oswald said on camera that would refute anything that has been quoted anyway?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
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I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald.

HUH??    So you acknowledge that "Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside" and that's absolutely correct.   But then you say "it wasn't Oswald" ( who saw them walk by) .....    I think it's important to remind you that it was Lee Oswald who was being interrogated, and he told the interrogators that he saw "Junior", ( Junior Jarman) and a little short Negro, ( Harold Norman) walk through the room ( meaning the shipping room) as he sat there in the 1st floor lunchroom, at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD.

When the police questioned Jarman and Norman, they asked them if they had walked through the room at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD, and they said that they had walked through the shipping room a few minutes BEFORE the parade arrived.   They knew that they had arrived on the fifth floor just a couple of minutes before the Parade arrived, and they knew that they had departed from the front of the TSBD at about 12:25.   Which means they passed by the first floor lunchroom about 12:26 / 12:27.    And Lee was there to see them walk by......He was NOT on the sixth floor. 

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 01, 2019, 04:18:51 PM
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The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald.

HUH??    So you acknowledge that "Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside" and that's absolutely correct.   But then you say "it wasn't Oswald" ( who saw them walk by) .....    I think it's important to remind you that it was Lee Oswald who was being interrogated, and he told the interrogators that he saw "Junior", ( Junior Jarman) and a little short Negro, ( Harold Norman) walk through the room ( meaning the shipping room) as he sat there in the 1st floor lunchroom, at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD.

When the police questioned Jarman and Norman they asked them if they had walked through the room at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD, they said that they had walked through the shipping room a few minutes BEFORE the parade arrived.   They knew that they had arrived on the fifth floor just a couple of minutes before the Parade arrived, and they knew that they had departed from the front of the TSBD at about 12:25.   Which means they passed by the first floor lunchroom about 12:26 / 12:27.    And Lee was there to see them walk by......He was NOT on the sixth floor.

"Meaning the shipping room"? Where do you get that from!!! In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2019, 04:49:08 PM
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"Meaning the shipping room"? Where do you get that from!!! In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch.

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

Lee didn't give  FOUR VERSIONS...There were four INTERPRETATIONS of what he said, by men who had never been in the TSBD and didn't know what he was saying. 

Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room

Anybody who had been inside the TSBD through the north entrance, off the loading dock, would have known that Lee was not referring to walking through the Domino Room, ( which is impossible)  Only a liar or screwball would attempt to argue that Lee told them that he saw Junior and Hank as they walked through the Domino Room.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 01, 2019, 08:52:50 PM
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In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch.

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

Lee didn't give  FOUR VERSIONS...There were four INTERPRETATIONS of what he said, by men who had never been in the TSBD and didn't know what he was saying. 

Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room

Anybody who had been inside the TSBD through the north entrance, off the loading dock, would have known that Lee was not referring to walking through the Domino Room, ( which is impossible)  Only a liar or screwball would attempt to argue that Lee told them that he saw Junior and Hank as they walked through the Domino Room.

The above is an interpretation of someone who was not even present at the interrogations and who has no idea what was discussed during the interrogations and can only base what was said in those interrogations on the reports filed by those present during the interrogations and/or doing the interrogating. BTW, not that it matters since your commie buddy Oswald was NOT in the Domino Room but a person can go through a doorway and come out the same doorway. But that is just semantics considering that Oswald was talking about eating lunch alone IN THE LUNCHROOM when he allegedly saw "the two colored boys" pass through THE ROOM. Only a complete nincompoop would consider the small open area between the north door and the elevators A ROOM.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 01, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
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The above is an interpretation of someone who was not even present at the interrogations and who has no idea what was discussed during the interrogations and can only base what was said in those interrogations on the reports filed by those present during the interrogations and/or doing the interrogating. BTW, not that it matters since your commie buddy Oswald was NOT in the Domino Room but a person can go through a doorway and come out the same doorway. But that is just semantics considering that Oswald was talking about eating lunch alone IN THE LUNCHROOM when he allegedly saw "the two colored boys" pass through THE ROOM. Only a complete nincompoop would consider the small open area between the north door and the elevators A ROOM.

The area in front of the elevators on the first floor was the "shipping room"..... And Jarman and Norman walked through the shipping room to get to the west facing gate of the west elevator......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 01, 2019, 10:18:15 PM
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The salient point that you're trying to establish has no bearing on the outcome of events that day but I'll entertain you by producing a timeline that firmly establishes that Brennan's recollections of when he was sitting on the concrete ledge is pretty accurate. Let's begin with the time Brennan said he finished lunch;

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm

From there he went to Houston St. and Elm St. This walk took him approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up


Here's the amended portion of the DPD radio log transcript (I have omitted only the portion which  is inconsequential)


Caller:                                                                      Conversation:

289 (not assigned)                                                            Give us an ambulance, 100 N. Houston St. - epileptic seizure

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                  10-4

289 (not assigned)                                                      Make it code - 3 (Emergency Red Lights and Sirens)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                   Be a white? (12:19)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATTER)                  What's your location?

606 (ambulance)                                                        About Hardwood and Cedar Springs now

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4 Code 3. (Emergency-red lights and sirens) on a signal 28 (emergency sick call) 100, N. Houston 12:20

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4, 606 (Ambulance), 12:24

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    606 (Ambulance)

606 (Ambulance)                                                         We are en route Parkland (garbled). This is a signal 16 (Investigation injured person)


By 12:24 the ambulance was already on it's way to Parkland. This falls pretty much in line with Brennan's timeline. He was sitting on the concrete ledge no later than 12:24.

What we can agree on is that BRW was not at the SN doing the shooting. Do you agree with both Givens and Danny Arce that BRW was not with them and Jarman before Jarman and Givens left?

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with...?

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.
Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch? I don't know; I didn't see him. Who went outdoors with you? Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles. You stood there how long before the parade came along?
Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere. around there. I am not too sure about that.


Looks like Arce and Givens had to be in on the cover up too

Oscar .........why are you so reluctant to address this. According to the sequence of events.

Williams first day statement indicates he did not go to the 6th floor with his lunch but went usptairs with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor instead. "Just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound consistent with a time around 12.25pm to you for their arrival?

It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that statement. Of those who worked on the 6th floor that day only Williams, Shelley, Dougherty, Arce and Lovelady were taken in for statements.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:15:44 PM
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Unlike certain blowhards on this forum, I lack the ego and arrogance to claim I 'know' what happened.

No, you just have the ego and arrogance to claim that you know what probably happened.

(http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v481/MarcVellat/Smilies/anim_buttkick_zps5cbe310e.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:17:53 PM
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All we have is Brennan's testimony to go by and if he says he could have positively identified Oswald as the shooter there's no reason to doubt him. There's nothing that I'm aware of that has cast doubts about Brennan being anything but an honest man.

Interesting how the people who you want to believe are the "honest" ones.  Notwithstanding, one can be honest and still be wrong.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:24:12 PM
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You're a nut cake, Cakebread. You've been reading too many kook books and it's affected what little gray matter you have between the ears.

Speaking of "resorting to insults"...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:27:55 PM
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And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

Doesn't seem like they got the "hell from up there" in any big hurry.\:

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:40:14 PM
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The several witnesses who either saw the sniper shooting (A), part of the gun being withdrawn(B), what appeared to be something that could be a gun(C), or movement after the third shot(D) are;

1) Howard L. Brennan(A)

2) Amos Lee Euins(A)

3) Robert H. Jackson(B)

4) Mrs. Earle Cabell(C)

5) James N. Crawford(D)

Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:43:00 PM
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Arnie initially said the figure in the west window was about 10-12 feet (or so) back of the window, but later changed that to 3-5 feet or so. This is one reason why the investigators interviewed him often, and checked his backstory thoroughly.

How inconsistent.   ::)

How about the guy who initially said he couldn't identify the guy he saw in the lineup and then later changed that to "I really could -- I pinkie swear it"?  Who checked his back story?

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:52:34 PM
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If Oswald had been in the Domino room at 12:25, he must have come down, from the 2nd floor lunchroom, abandoning his favorite place to eat alone occasionally,

Where'd you get that, Zeon?

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2019, 10:56:41 PM
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On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

This should give you a flavor of how much Holmes was paying attention to what was being said during that interrogation:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 02, 2019, 11:15:43 PM
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How inconsistent.   ::)

How about the guy who initially said he couldn't identify the guy he saw in the lineup and then later changed that to "I really could -- I pinkie swear it"?  Who checked his back story?

Excellent point, Mr I....  The cops said they didn't take Benavides in to view a line up, because he said that he couldn't Identify the killer.  When inreality Benavides told them that He'd seen Lee's picture on TV and he knew that he couldn't ID Lee as the Killer.    They only wanted witnesses that were unsure.... or those that were easily manipulated.   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 02, 2019, 11:47:59 PM
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Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".

Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.

Yes, I think that's exactly right, Brennan ASSUMED that it was the same guy..... And I think it was an excellent assumption.... Unless there was more than one man up there dressed in light colored Khaki clothing, who was in his early thirties, and weighed between 165 and 175 pounds.

  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Really??? Hmmmm....  "Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight"......

Brennan said he could see the entire upper portion of the man's body from his belt up....and he saw the man let the gun down to his side .....

Is there some stance besides standing that Brennan could have witnessed these actions from down on ELm street??
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 03, 2019, 12:43:11 AM
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How inconsistent.   ::)

How about the guy who initially said he couldn't identify the guy he saw in the lineup and then later changed that to "I really could -- I pinkie swear it"?  Who checked his back story?

His wife

 ;)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 03, 2019, 01:07:43 AM
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Excellent point, Mr I....  The cops said they didn't take Benavides in to view a line up, because he said that he couldn't Identify the killer.  When inreality Benavides told them that He'd seen Lee's picture on TV and he knew that he couldn't ID Lee as the Killer.    They only wanted witnesses that were unsure.... or those that were easily manipulated.

Seems you two have suddenly become 'besties'

Whoulda thunk it?
LOL
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 03:55:43 AM
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Oscar .........why are you so reluctant to address this. According to the sequence of events.

Williams first day statement indicates he did not go to the 6th floor with his lunch but went usptairs with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor instead. "Just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound consistent with a time around 12.25pm to you for their arrival?

It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that statement. Of those who worked on the 6th floor that day only Williams, Shelley, Dougherty, Arce and Lovelady were taken in for statements.

According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

Now, since you are supposedly interested in debating and discussing, why don't you address what I have brought up in previous posts.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:23:18 AM
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The area in front of the elevators on the first floor was the "shipping room"..... And Jarman and Norman walked through the shipping room to get to the west facing gate of the west elevator......

You're FOS, Cakebread. Here's the diagram of the first floor that shows Roy Truly's movement from the front door facing Elm St to the stairs next to the elevators. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=982&tab=page  (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=982&tab=page) As can be seen there is no "Shipping room". There maybe was a shipping department as can be seen in CE-677 were Lt. Day wrote shipping department on a piece of paper taken from the rolling machine used to make the paper sack.

Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.
Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.
Now, we have most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.
And the location of the books each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.
On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.
And then in the basement the same.
The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.
But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.
Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?
Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited. amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.
And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:50:12 AM
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Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?
Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle...???..

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses...??..

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.
Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.
Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right..........


The man sees Oswald with a gun taking aim, hears the shot, sees Oswald take the last shot and slowly retrieve the rifle, says that he could identify Oswald and as proof he identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor and we're somehow supposed to doubt his testimony because Brennan tells McCloy that he didn't actually see the gun discharge. Category A all the way.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 03, 2019, 04:51:56 AM
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The above is an interpretation of someone who was not even present at the interrogations and who has no idea what was discussed during the interrogations and can only base what was said in those interrogations on the reports filed by those present during the interrogations and/or doing the interrogating. BTW, not that it matters since your commie buddy Oswald was NOT in the Domino Room but a person can go through a doorway and come out the same doorway. But that is just semantics considering that Oswald was talking about eating lunch alone IN THE LUNCHROOM when he allegedly saw "the two colored boys" pass through THE ROOM. Only a complete nincompoop would consider the small open area between the north door and the elevators A ROOM.
Oscar, let's talk about interrogations.

What do you consider to be an interrogation?
How many human beings were interrogated related to the death of JFK?
Were any tape-recorded?
Were there notes taken and saved?
Were you surprised by any person who sat in an interrogation, since you were present, right?

I noticed you suggested Oswald was Walt's "commie buddy".

Since you believe Oswald was a commie, fair enough, but the government can give you a story of how they knew who LHO was except for a few hours November 22.
Some of the most paranoid people pushing the communist threat happen to distance themselves from LHO for a few hours you are first in line to agree.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:55:36 AM
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This should give you a flavor of how much Holmes was paying attention to what was being said during that interrogation:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."

So Holmes entire report should then be discarded.  ::)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:59:09 AM
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Speaking of "resorting to insults"...

When I'm insulted I will answer in kind.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 03, 2019, 07:49:13 AM
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According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

Now, since you are supposedly interested in debating and discussing, why don't you address what I have brought up in previous posts.

What have I not addressed? I found the primary source transcript that has a call of Main by Decker at 12.22. Yet you persist to use the 6th floor museum time of 12.21 with no reference listed. I showed that Brennan watched them remove Belknap at about 12.24. He claimed to have done this while standing. You simply dismissed this and used Brennan?s rough estimate to put him on the wall at 12.22.

Since you seem to know and believe all significant events of the day, tell me how many men Brennan described seeing on the 5th floor and who they were?

Tell me why Williams said nothing about his lunch trip to the 6th floor in his first statement. Why did he lie and say he went up with Jarman and Norman? Why did they support this initial lie for all statements until Ball and Brennan went to Dallas in March 64 to "tidy things up".

Your belief of events is not based on contemporary statements but a concoction developed by lawyers with the LN filter strongly applied. It does not even stand up to the actual statements provided by key witnesses and the irony is that the Ball/Belin fantasy explaining Williams movements did not even survive to make the Warren Report.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 03, 2019, 09:29:38 AM
 
The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 03, 2019, 09:34:35 AM
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I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.
"The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home"[

How in the world do give weight to 100% second-hand information, when there is no document which speaks to his specific location at the time of the shooting?
How is it that you love to use Harold Norman to corroborate anything? Right below is McCloy asking Norman about time-

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.


10 to 15 minutes???? How long did he hear a weapon being fired, 3 or 4 minutes??? Maybe a minute per round??
Why does this fool answer every question with a question?

Mr. McCloy.  Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

No Norman, to come down to 1st floor from the basement. What a reliable witness
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 03, 2019, 09:56:20 AM
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According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.



"It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected "

Of course they were they had to have been to make the story stick. :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 03, 2019, 09:59:27 AM
Norman never changed his time approximation for 3 shots fired which is according to his several interviews recorded including also at the mock trial, has 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds.

His WC testimony also states he heard the 1st shot, saw JFK "slump" and then heard the next 2 shots


Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me



so if Norman heard these 3 shots in less than 5 seconds as per his several video taped interviews as he does his boom clak clak sequence renactiment, then the 1st shot Norman is hearing and then seeing the President slump, must be the shot at Z223
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 03, 2019, 11:07:54 AM
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The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

Zeno, few boxes were placed in the SN by any assassin. The majority were moved by the floor working crew in the past few days. Bonnie Ray Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. We know this because there were numerous officers who described his chicken lunch in that location. Those were the officers who arrived before Fritz. Prior to his arrival someone moved the lunch westward. We also know williams was there because Rowland described him in the SN at the same some (12.15) as a gunman in the west window.

The LN camp will attempt to discredit Rowland because his testimony and the chicken lunch puts extreme pressure on Williams. Not because he was involved in the plot but because the assembled, verified, evidence tells a different story of the crime scene immediately before the shots than they would wish you to "believe".

Here is a sequence of events.

Rowland sees a gunman on the 6th floor in the SW window.

Williams goes up to the 6th floor.

Jarman and Norman go up to the fifth.

Williams joins Norman and Jarman On the fifth.

A test for anyone.....put them in the right order and work out what time (roughly). Provide your evidence for doing so.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 02:28:15 PM
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Doesn't seem like they got the "hell from up there" in any big hurry.\:

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.

From Harold Norman's WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.


From James Jarman WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN - Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

Jarman sees Brennan run up to the police officer. That's who Brennan ran up to before Inspector Sawyer arrived at the scene and before Brennan sees Jarman and Norman.

From Howard Brennan's WC testimony;

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Inspector Sawyer (Brennan confused Sorrels for Sawyer) was parked in front of the TSBD when Brennan saw Jarman and Norman coming down the front steps of the TSBD to the street. Sawyer estimates that he gave instructions for the TSBD to be sealed off sometime after 12:37 in the presence of Brennan. Soon thereafter sawyer sets up a command post across the street at the Sheriff's Office to take witness statements and Brennan is sent there by the DPD cop. By 12:45 Brennan's description goes out as an APB and is transcribed in the radio log.  BRW time estimate of 15 minutes is way off as can be seen by the statements of Norman, Jarman, Brennan, and Sawyer (see Sawyer's WC testimony).

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
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Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".

Add Malcolm A. Couch to the B category.

Euins referred to the white spot as a bald spot on the head and would not say if the man was white or black in his WC testimony. This is his statement as taken down by the Sheriff's Dept. of which Euins signed https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=987&tab=page  (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=987&tab=page) It says white man. In his WC testimony Euins said he was misinterpreted because he allegedly said he was referring to the mans bald spot only. If Euins really told the reporter that he saw a black man then he was just a very confused kid.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 03, 2019, 02:48:00 PM
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Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.

From Harold Norman's WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.


From James Jarman WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN - Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

Jarman sees Brennan run up to the police officer. That's who Brennan ran up to before Inspector Sawyer arrived at the scene and before Brennan sees Jarman and Norman.

From Howard Brennan's WC testimony;

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Inspector Sawyer (Brennan confused Sorrels for Sawyer) was parked in front of the TSBD when Brennan saw Jarman and Norman coming down the front steps of the TSBD to the street. Sawyer estimates that he gave instructions for the TSBD to be sealed off sometime after 12:37 in the presence of Brennan. Soon thereafter sawyer sets up a command post across the street at the Sheriff's Office to take witness statements and Brennan is sent there by the DPD cop. By 12:45 Brennan's description goes out as an APB and is transcribed in the radio log.  BRW time estimate of 15 minutes is way off as can be seen by the statements of Norman, Jarman, Brennan, and Sawyer (see Sawyer's WC testimony).

Like cherry picking Norman"s, 12.15 from one statement as a time for their ascent. Pot....kettle.

Bonnie Ray was not the most reliable witness regarding any placement, movement or timing was he? Wonder why. He just happened to be in the SN up until about 12.25. No pressure on him.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 03:13:51 PM
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Oscar, let's talk about interrogations.

What do you consider to be an interrogation?
How many human beings were interrogated related to the death of JFK?
Were any tape-recorded?
Were there notes taken and saved?
Were you surprised by any person who sat in an interrogation, since you were present, right?

I noticed you suggested Oswald was Walt's "commie buddy".

Since you believe Oswald was a commie, fair enough, but the government can give you a story of how they knew who LHO was except for a few hours November 22.
Some of the most paranoid people pushing the communist threat happen to distance themselves from LHO for a few hours you are first in line to agree.

I have no idea what you're trying to get at with your questions and comments.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 03:36:53 PM
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What have I not addressed? I found the primary source transcript that has a call of Main by Decker at 12.22. Yet you persist to use the 6th floor museum time of 12.21 with no reference listed. I showed that Brennan watched them remove Belknap at about 12.24. He claimed to have done this while standing. You simply dismissed this and used Brennan?s rough estimate to put him on the wall at 12.22.

Since you seem to know and believe all significant events of the day, tell me how many men Brennan described seeing on the 5th floor and who they were?

Tell me why Williams said nothing about his lunch trip to the 6th floor in his first statement. Why did he lie and say he went up with Jarman and Norman? Why did they support this initial lie for all statements until Ball and Brennan went to Dallas in March 64 to "tidy things up".

Your belief of events is not based on contemporary statements but a concoction developed by lawyers with the LN filter strongly applied. It does not even stand up to the actual statements provided by key witnesses and the irony is that the Ball/Belin fantasy explaining Williams movements did not even survive to make the Warren Report.

Colin, you're running from the contemporary statements made by Norman, Arce and Givens which give the time as 12:15 going up to the fifth floor or do not place BRW with Norman and Jarman together on the first floor. You make assumptions that there are lies by BRW, Belin and Ball without a shred of evidence. I can see by your comments there's a strong bias against the WC counsel while I don't believe that neither Belin or Ball or any other member of the counsel staff that did most of the work for the WC had any intention of anything other than getting to the truth. We're on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the integrity of the people involved so we're just going to bang heads and not get anywhere but I will not give up yet unless you refuse to address the following very simple questions;

A) Who's chicken lunch, Fritos, Dr. Pepper bottle and lunchbag was it if not that of BRW?

B) Taking Arce's and Given's testimony that BRW was not with Jarman and Norman where the heck was BRW if not having his lunch at the 6th floor of the TSBD just as he claimed in his WC testimony?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:00:01 PM
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The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

The boxes that made the SN were already there before LHO got there. They were being moved by the floor laying crew from the west side of the 6th floor to the east side as they worked their way eastward. The only boxes LHO moved were the light Rolling readers boxes used as a gun rest and two of the larger boxes, possibly one used as a seat where Oswald's fresh palmprint was found and the other that was against the wall under the window used to support a Rolling Reader box. That SN was probably used as a convenient hiding place by the floor laying crew and Oswald took advantage of it's discreet location to use it for a SN.

Oswald had plenty of time to move the boxes and adjust the window before BRW, Jarman and Norman arrived on the 6th and fifth floors as the last time anyone saw Oswald was at around 11:50 AM by Givens. As to the sounds BRW heard Jarman and Norman opening windows from a floor above but did not hear either the three shells drop or the movement of the bolt but it was clear that the sounds of the empty cartriges and the movement of the bolt could be heard from the fifth floor from Norman's position as tests proved.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:02:44 PM
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"The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home"[

How in the world do give weight to 100% second-hand information, when there is no document which speaks to his specific location at the time of the shooting?
How is it that you love to use Harold Norman to corroborate anything? Right below is McCloy asking Norman about time-

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.


10 to 15 minutes???? How long did he hear a weapon being fired, 3 or 4 minutes??? Maybe a minute per round??
Why does this fool answer every question with a question?

Mr. McCloy.  Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

No Norman, to come down to 1st floor from the basement. What a reliable witness

Already covered in a previous reply to JohnI.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:12:36 PM
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"It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected "

Of course they were they had to have been to make the story stick. :D :D :D :D

Yeah, the cover up that involved dozens of people from all over the country that to this day has yet to produce a single piece of evidence that indicates that the final conclusions reached by the WC was in error. That is, that LHO killed both JFK, wounded JBC, and killed Officer Tippit without outside assistance. Let's add that Oswald also took a pot shot at General Walker. I might have worded this statement a bit confusing. After 55 years, three further investigations and, I guess, millions of declassified documents, no evidence has been uncovered that would lead to the conclusion that the essential conclusions reached by the WC are not valid.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:41:44 PM
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Norman never changed his time approximation for 3 shots fired which is according to his several interviews recorded including also at the mock trial, has 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds.

His WC testimony also states he heard the 1st shot, saw JFK "slump" and then heard the next 2 shots


Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me



so if Norman heard these 3 shots in less than 5 seconds as per his several video taped interviews as he does his boom clak clak sequence renactiment, then the 1st shot Norman is hearing and then seeing the President slump, must be the shot at Z223

Yet there are many other witnesses who claim to have heard the first shot much earlier. There's the testimony of Couch, Dillard, Jackson and Underwood who heard the first shot when their convertible was either just entering Houston St. form Main St. or was further along Houston St. I would be interested to know the position of their car in relation to that of the presidents limo when they heard the first shot. Calling Jerry Organ!!!!!
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 03, 2019, 04:52:50 PM
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Like cherry picking Norman"s, 12.15 from one statement as a time for their ascent. Pot....kettle.

Bonnie Ray was not the most reliable witness regarding any placement, movement or timing was he? Wonder why. He just happened to be in the SN up until about 12.25. No pressure on him.

Norman's 12:15 is not a stand alone piece of evidence. There's Arce and Givens statements of NO BRW with Jarman and Norman so.....where was BRW at 12:15 PM? His testimony before the WC says 6th floor, behind third set of windows or thereabouts. You're basing your claim that BRW had to be IN the SN on the testimony of Arnold Rowland...am I right?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 03, 2019, 09:03:23 PM
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Yeah, the cover up that involved dozens of people from all over the country that to this day has yet to produce a single piece of evidence that indicates that the final conclusions reached by the WC was in error. That is, that LHO killed both JFK, wounded JBC, and killed Officer Tippit without outside assistance. Let's add that Oswald also took a pot shot at General Walker. I might have worded this statement a bit confusing. After 55 years, three further investigations and, I guess, millions of declassified documents, no evidence has been uncovered that would lead to the conclusion that the essential conclusions reached by the WC are not valid.
Well there it is everybody....the definitive solution! Why then post any further? What more can be said? Why wile away any more time on these benign arguments? Just curious ::)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 03, 2019, 09:22:41 PM
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Well there it is everybody....the definitive solution! Why then post any further? What more can be said? Why wile away any more time on these benign arguments? Just curious ::)

Are you askin Navarro why he wastin time attacking CT's and lying about the case, if LBJ's Special select Blue Ribbon Committee's "essential  conclusions" are accurate and valid....?   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 03, 2019, 09:56:46 PM
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Are you askin Navarro why he wastin time attacking CT's and lying about the case, if LBJ's Special select Blue Ribbon Committee's "essential  conclusions" are accurate and valid....?   
  The lone shooter guys = horses in this condition--  (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 04, 2019, 05:15:04 AM
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Norman's 12:15 is not a stand alone piece of evidence. There's Arce and Givens statements of NO BRW with Jarman and Norman so.....where was BRW at 12:15 PM? His testimony before the WC says 6th floor, behind third set of windows or thereabouts. You're basing your claim that BRW had to be IN the SN on the testimony of Arnold Rowland...am I right?

No....wrong again. Seems to be a pattern.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 04, 2019, 05:37:08 AM
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Yeah, the cover up that involved dozens of people from all over the country that to this day has yet to produce a single piece of evidence that indicates that the final conclusions reached by the WC was in error. That is, that LHO killed both JFK, wounded JBC, and killed Officer Tippit without outside assistance. Let's add that Oswald also took a pot shot at General Walker. I might have worded this statement a bit confusing. After 55 years, three further investigations and, I guess, millions of declassified documents, no evidence has been uncovered that would lead to the conclusion that the essential conclusions reached by the WC are not valid.
Oscar you don't need to yell

Question: What does WC stand for?
Answer: Warren Commission
Oscar's Answer: Warren Court of law
 
Funny, I don't remember this case being tried in a court of law and there lies your problem, Oscar,  but I see it's all or nothing with you
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 04, 2019, 08:02:36 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/ZW3SY5P/83-E24-E49-1835-4112-A715-4-DC60-D74-FD5-A.jpg)

The brief that analysis lawyers Ball, Belin etc were essentially working from.

"We are supposed to be closing doors not opening them." J Lee Rankin.

The Warren Report. A timely sedative that served a purpose for us all.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 04, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
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The brief that layers Ball, Belin etc were essentially working from.
 "We are supposed to be closing doors not opening them." J Lee Rankin.
Blueprint for a Cover-up......
  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1424.0.html
 
 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 04, 2019, 04:07:36 PM
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZW3SY5P/83-E24-E49-1835-4112-A715-4-DC60-D74-FD5-A.jpg)

The brief that analysis lawyers Ball, Belin etc were essentially working from.

"We are supposed to be closing doors not opening them." J Lee Rankin.

The Warren Report. A timely sedative that served a purpose for us all.

The Warren Report. A timely sedative that served a purpose for us all.

A sedative, to relieve the stress caused by learning we have a cancer.....   The sedative may relieve our anxiety ....but it does nothing to stop the cancer. 

The Warren Report only exacerbated the problem.... Most intelligent folks recognize it as a big lie, that was presented to the pissants as a way to keep them calm and submissive....  But the cancer has grown and the mutual trust between the governed and the government is nearly non existent.   

Paragraph 3.....
We cannot let the world see us in the image of the Dallas Police, when our President is MURDERED   ( refreshing candor, no euphemism like the
 less graphic ....assassination)

Paragraph 2 .....Rephrased.....
The Dallas Police were in charge when a known gangster, Jack Ruby, ( a thug with connections in Washington)  murdered a man who clearly stated that he had not committed the crime and loudly proclaimed " I'm the Patsy".

Hoover's conclusion rephrased....

I've been indoctrinating the public for decades into believing the FBI is the greatest crime fighting organization in history....Starting with entertaining radio programs in the early years, and then progressing on to TV programs like "I led Three Lives" ....  The pissants trust and believe....

Therefore Me and  my FBI can do the job of duping the pissants into believing that Lee Harrrrrrrvey Osssssswald was simply a deranged nut who murdered the Dumb Fancy Pants JFK for no reason at all.  However I may run into difficulties in pointing to "inconsistencies" between the tale I will create and the Statements that have already been made by the Dallas Police officials. ( ie;  The DPD have publicly said that they found the patsy's arch villain's palm and finger prints on the rifle.....  and my FBI lab people have found no such prints on the rifle. )  The reputation that I have created for the bureau is such that I can probably create a lie that the sucker pissants will believe...... 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 05:07:46 PM
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The man sees Oswald with a gun taking aim, hears the shot, sees Oswald take the last shot and slowly retrieve the rifle, says that he could identify Oswald and as proof he identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor and we're somehow supposed to doubt his testimony because Brennan tells McCloy that he didn't actually see the gun discharge. Category A all the way.

He either saw the shot or he didn't.  Which is it?

By the way, Brennan also claimed in his book that he saw JFK's head explode.  That's some fast reflexes there.

P.S. How do you know that Brennan "identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor"?  Did he specify who was who and what window each were at?  What about Williams?  And were those guys crouched behind boxes or hanging out windows?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 05:08:44 PM
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So Holmes entire report should then be discarded.  ::)

True to form you cherry-pick what you like, and discard what you don't.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 05:12:43 PM
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Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

So is it your contention that 5 minutes equates to getting the hell out of there?

And do you have any basis for assuming that Brennan's estimates of time are more accurate than Williams'?

And if it was Brennan's description that went out at 12:45, then why isn't it identical to Brennan's description?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
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In his WC testimony Euins said he was misinterpreted because he allegedly said he was referring to the mans bald spot only. If Euins really told the reporter that he saw a black man then he was just a very confused kid.

I love the way you just decide what the truth is, and evaluate witness credibility accordingly...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 05:20:39 PM
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Colin, you're running from the contemporary statements made by Norman, Arce and Givens which give the time as 12:15 going up to the fifth floor or do not place BRW with Norman and Jarman together on the first floor.

Can you point to any police radio broadcast of the motorcade being on Main prior to 12:15?

Quote
I don't believe that neither Belin or Ball or any other member of the counsel staff that did most of the work for the WC had any intention of anything other than getting to the truth.

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 04, 2019, 05:36:46 PM
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Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?
Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle...???..

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses...??..

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.
Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.
Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right..........


The man sees Oswald with a gun taking aim, hears the shot, sees Oswald take the last shot and slowly retrieve the rifle, says that he could identify Oswald and as proof he identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor and we're somehow supposed to doubt his testimony because Brennan tells McCloy that he didn't actually see the gun discharge. Category A all the way.

The man   ( Brennan)  sees Oswald with a gun taking aim, hears the shot, sees Oswald take the last shot and slowly retrieve the rifle,


Brennann said the man was dressed in light colored khaki clothing, and the trouser were a shade lighter than the shirt....A)  Brennan could not have seen the man's trousers if the man was not STANDING!....  B)   Lee Oswald didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing  and he was wearing DARK gray trousers and a reddish colored  (rust) brown shirt that morning.   

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.

If the man who was aiming the HUNTING RIFLE out of a sixth floor window had been behind the SE corner window....Brennan's action of diving to the east side of the wall would have been futile....because he would still have been in full view of the gunman....  Clearly Brennan saw the man behind a window to the WEST of the wall....  Just as Arnold Rowland reported.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 04, 2019, 08:43:55 PM
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He either saw the shot or he didn't.  Which is it?

By the way, Brennan also claimed in his book that he saw JFK's head explode.  That's some fast reflexes there.

P.S. How do you know that Brennan "identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor"?  Did he specify who was who and what window each were at?  What about Williams?  And were those guys crouched behind boxes or hanging out windows?

He only saw two men on the 5th floor.......because when he looked Williams had not arrived. Still coming down from the SN.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on February 04, 2019, 09:37:11 PM
Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 04, 2019, 10:32:06 PM
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Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.

I bet you would have been first in the lynching squad in the old days, eh, Mark.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 04, 2019, 11:10:33 PM
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Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.

Ruby did no service to anyone. Don't try and justify his actions as a "public service", pathetic.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 11:35:37 PM
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Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.

Too bad you can't prove that it's actually true.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 04, 2019, 11:55:03 PM
For Oscar who likes to use Arce's WC testimony to show BRW was not outside the TSBD with the others before the motorcade........(not sure why, or what Oscar's argument is really but anyway)

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.

So according to Arce, Norman was not outside with Jarman. Let's move on shall we?

When did he see Jarman (and Givens).

Mr. BALL. You stood there how long before the parade came along?
Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere. around there. I am not too sure about that.

So his best estimate is that he went out to stand and watch the parade at 12.20pm. He saw Jarman and Givens. Presumably he did not notice Norman, but yet another confirmation that is consistent with Jarman and Norman leaving to go up to the fifth after 12.20pm.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 05, 2019, 05:23:37 AM
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Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.
Is your name really Mark? You're Dan Rather, right? I knew it
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 05, 2019, 06:59:17 AM
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Oswald shot Kennedy...... get over it.  He also tried to shoot General Walker.  He also shot Officer Tippit.  He also tried to kill himself.  He also left his wedding ring and 170 dollars next to his wife's side table where she slept on the morning of the assassination.  He was also a total a**hole who deserved to be shot by Jack Ruby, who did the country a great service by killing the little creep.

He didn't do the country any favours. But he sure did a whole lot of conspiracy-book authors a solid.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 05, 2019, 07:19:04 AM
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So is it your contention that 5 minutes equates to getting the hell out of there?

And do you have any basis for assuming that Brennan's estimates of time are more accurate than Williams'?

And if it was Brennan's description that went out at 12:45, then why isn't it identical to Brennan's description?

Dispatch: All units, all units: Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 54: Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 54, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 05, 2019, 07:24:50 AM
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Is your name really Mark? You're Dan Rather, right? I knew it

He's right about Oswald, according to most of the country

https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

 ;)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 05, 2019, 06:42:40 PM
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Dispatch: All units, all units: Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 54: Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 54, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..

Not Bad Chappie!....

Dispatch: unit 10....Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 10 (Tippit) Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 10, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..

NOT a bad way to demonstrate a Standard Operating Police  Procedure .....   And you've shown that IF IF Tippit had been tailing a suspect who had murdered the POTUS , he would have reported the sighting and called for back up.....   WHY didn't that happen Chappie?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 05, 2019, 08:51:05 PM
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Not Bad Chappie!....

Dispatch: unit 10....Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 10 (Tippit) Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 10, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..

NOT a bad way to demonstrate a Standard Operating Police  Procedure .....   And you've shown that IF IF Tippit had been tailing a suspect who had murdered the POTUS , he would have reported the sighting and called for back up.....   WHY didn't that happen Chappie?

You've missed my point.

I was being sarcastic re CT insistence on perfect estimated/actual weight matches.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 05, 2019, 10:15:29 PM
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You've missed my point.

I was being sarcastic re CT insistence on perfect estimated/actual weight matches.

Sarcastic...or not...  YOU made the point that the idea is utterly ridiculous....That Tippit would have approached a lunatic who was suspected of murdering the POTUS without reporting or calling for back up.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 05, 2019, 10:23:20 PM
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Sarcastic...or not...  YOU made the point that the idea is utterly ridiculous....That Tippit would have approached a lunatic who was suspected of murdering the POTUS without reporting or calling for back up.

whoosh

I made no such point. Your mouth is writing checks that your arse can't cash.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 05, 2019, 11:19:56 PM
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whoosh

I made no such point. Your mouth is writing checks that your arse can't cash.

Chapped arse wrote....

Dispatch: All units, all units: Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 54: Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 54, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 05, 2019, 11:50:09 PM
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Dispatch: All units, all units: Be advised murder suspect weighing 160-170 pounds at large
Car 54: Dispatch, eyes on a suspect weighing about 171 pounds
Dispatch: Car 54, do not apprehend, repeat, do not apprehend..

You're delirious again.  Which suspect do you think weighed 171 pounds?

Dispatcher: The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.
. . .

221:That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt

. . .

Postal: Johnny saw a guy who had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me

Dispatcher:  That fits the description!  Send all units!
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 05, 2019, 11:51:23 PM
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You've missed my point.

I was being sarcastic re CT insistence on perfect estimated/actual weight matches.

No, you completely missed the point.  If Brennan was the source of the description that went out at 12:45, then why is it not Brennan's description?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 06, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
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No, you completely missed the point.  If Brennan was the source of the description that went out at 12:45, then why is it not Brennan's description?

No, you missed the sarcasm I intended

APB: About 30/5'10/165lb/slender build
Brennan: Early 30's/5'10/160-170lb/slender

And the problem with that is what, exactly?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 06, 2019, 07:36:22 AM
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He's right about Oswald, according to most of the country

https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

 ;)
The Onion Oh, I guess you convinced me!  The polls, the surveys, etc. are for people who are challenged by this thing called "I can't think for myself". I might be wrong but I think the 4th of July 1964 was the first year they changed calling the country's birthday from Independence Day to the more accurate DEPENDENCE DAY.  Let me help you. Notice the number of letters, yes there are a couple(meaning 2) letters missing to help create an easier less cumbersome word for people like yourself to pronounce.
 Here is a simple pre-curser to the future manipulation of the media for purposes which can be described as"for your own good" see if you can apply it(without any help) to the debate

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 06, 2019, 08:18:39 AM
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The Onion Oh, I guess you convinced me!  The polls, the surveys, etc. are for people who are challenged by this thing called "I can't think for myself". I might be wrong but I think the 4th of July 1964 was the first year they changed calling the country's birthday from Independence Day to the more accurate DEPENDENCE DAY.  Let me help you. Notice the number of letters, yes there are a couple(meaning 2) letters missing to help create an easier less cumbersome word for people like yourself to pronounce.
 Here is a simple pre-curser to the future manipulation of the media for purposes which can be described as"for your own good" see if you can apply it(without any help) to the debate


LOL Another paranoid dumbass CTer taking himself so seriously that he gets snared by a spoof publication (yeah, The Onion). I always catch you dummies with this stuff.

Sucker.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 06, 2019, 09:32:40 AM
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LOL Another paranoid dumbass CTer taking himself so seriously that he gets snared by a spoof publication (yeah, The Onion). I always catch you dummies with this stuff.

Sucker.

Typical Lone nutter excuse. When found to be an idiot, excuses himself by saying i was spoofing  you. Seems you are the dummy, Chappers.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 06, 2019, 01:12:56 PM
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No, you completely missed the point.  If Brennan was the source of the description that went out at 12:45, then why is it not Brennan's description?

Brennan was the only person who immediately after the shooting,at 12:30, who went to a police officer and reported that he'd seen a man aiming a rifle out of a TSBD window.

There was no other person who could have been the source for the description that was broadcast at 12:45.  And the description is pretty vague .....It's not a match for Lee Oswald but it is the same basic description that Brennan wrote in his affidavit about an hour later.

This is the description that Brennan's wrote in his affidavit:...."I did not notice anything unusual about this man. He was in his early thirties, slender nice looking, slender and about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing , not a suit."

Dispatcher: The suspect in the shooting is approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.



Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 06, 2019, 04:47:29 PM
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No, you missed the sarcasm I intended

APB: About 30/5'10/165lb/slender build
Brennan: Early 30's/5'10/160-170lb/slender

And the problem with that is what, exactly?

As is usual, your sarcastic quip had nothing to do with the point that was raised.

Brennan's affidavit:
"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds"

They didn't say "about 30", they said "30".  And where did they get 5' 10"?  And "30 caliber rifle"?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 06, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
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As is usual, your sarcastic quip had nothing to do with the point that was raised.

Brennan's affidavit:
"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds"

They didn't say "about 30", they said "30".  And where did they get 5' 10"?  And "30 caliber rifle"?

Simply because the police broadcast didn't identify the witness does not in anyway indicate that the witness was anyone but Howars Brennan... Brennan probably did tell the cop that the man had a high powered rifle ( meaning a hunting rifle) and it could have been a 30-30 Winchester because he could see all of the barrel of the gun.

In his written affidavit Brennan wrote:... " I then saw this man I have described in the window and he was taking aim with a HIGH POWERED rifle. I could see all of the barrel of the gun."

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 06, 2019, 09:02:03 PM
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Simply because the police broadcast didn't identify the witness does not in anyway indicate that the witness was anyone but Howars Brennan... Brennan probably did tell the cop that the man had a high powered rifle ( meaning a hunting rifle) and it could have been a 30-30 Winchester because he could see all of the barrel of the gun.

That's just a circular argument.  There's no reason to think that Brennan ever said anything on 11/22 about a "30 caliber rifle".
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 06, 2019, 11:03:59 PM
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As is usual, your sarcastic quip had nothing to do with the point that was raised.

Brennan's affidavit:
"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds"

They didn't say "about 30", they said "30".  And where did they get 5' 10"?  And "30 caliber rifle"?

My 'Car 54' sarcasm was directed at you

Oh, btw...

Channel 1
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcs9bqkN/dispatcher-channel-one.png)

Channel 2
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qtv7nWKD/DPD-Dispatch-01.png)

@Newbies
Go here and see the dispatch tapes for yourselves
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 06, 2019, 11:13:58 PM
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That's just a circular argument.  There's no reason to think that Brennan ever said anything on 11/22 about a "30 caliber rifle".

The only alternative is:.... The cop just made that up.....   Either Brennan suggested that the rifle might have been a 30-30 Winchester, because he could see all of the barrel or..... The cop just used anal extraction......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 06, 2019, 11:25:22 PM
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Typical Lone nutter excuse. When found to be an idiot, excuses himself by saying i was spoofing  you. Seems you are the dummy, Chappers.

I've snared more than one CTer with Onion satire

The Onion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

Well?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 06, 2019, 11:37:54 PM
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Do some research 

The Onion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

Well?

Twas you quoting from "The Onion".

Nuff said.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 06, 2019, 11:48:39 PM
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Twas you quoting from "The Onion".

Nuff said.

Are you claiming that I don't know the difference between satire and reality...
 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 06, 2019, 11:53:40 PM
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Are you claiming that I don't know the difference between satire and reality...

Do you?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 06, 2019, 11:54:07 PM
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My 'Car 54' sarcasm was directed at you

No doubt.  It just had nothing to do with the discussion.  It was a lot like dressing up in a gorilla suit and walking across a basketball court.

Quote
Oh, btw...

Cool...does that say anything different from what I said?  Or are you just showing off your Google prowess?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 06, 2019, 11:55:26 PM
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The only alternative is:.... The cop just made that up.....   Either Brennan suggested that the rifle might have been a 30-30 Winchester, because he could see all of the barrel or..... The cop just used anal extraction......

. . . or they got that info from somebody besides Brennan.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 12:00:44 AM
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Do you?

You wouldn't know the difference if it hit you in the cake-hole
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 12:19:39 AM
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No doubt.  It just had nothing to do with the discussion.
>>> It nailed you precisely 

It was a lot like dressing up in a gorilla suit and walking across a basketball court
>>> Well, the gorilla concept/effect worked for Ruby.

Cool...does that say anything different from what I said?  Or are you just showing off your Google prowess?
>>> What... too busy with your drive-by trolling to check for yourself?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 01:07:48 AM
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. . . or they got that info from somebody besides Brennan.

Who would that be??..... Howard Brennan is the ONLY person who stepped forward immediately after the shooting at 12:30, and reported seeing a man aiming a rifle from a TSBD window.   A few minutes later the cop called in and gave the description to the dispatcher....at 12:45 the dispatcher broadcast the description....

Rational thinking does come easily for you does it Johnny?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
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Cool...does that say anything different from what I said?  Or are you just showing off your Google prowess?
>>> What... too busy with your drive-by trolling to check for yourself?

What makes you think I wasn't aware of the dpdtapes pages?  I've only quoted directly from them on a number of occasions.

I'll ask again:  did I say anything that wasn't accurate?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 02:07:44 AM
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Who would that be??..... Howard Brennan is the ONLY person who stepped forward immediately after the shooting at 12:30, and reported seeing a man aiming a rifle from a TSBD window.

False.  What about Euins?  What about Rowland?  You don't know what time it was when Brennan "stepped forward".  What makes you think Brennan was the source of the "30 caliber rifle"?

Quote
   A few minutes later the cop called in and gave the description to the dispatcher....at 12:45 the dispatcher broadcast the description....

Rational thinking does come easily for you does it Johnny?

Again, you confuse "rational thinking" (Walt style -- which means making stuff up) with fact.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 06:26:21 AM
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What makes you think I wasn't aware of the dpdtapes pages?  I've only quoted directly from them on a number of occasions.

I'll ask again:  did I say anything that wasn't accurate?

Yes

And where did I say you weren't aware of the dvptapes pages
Read them again and find out why you should quote directly from sources all the time
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 07:04:45 AM
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Yes

What did I say that wasn?t accurate?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 07:09:55 AM
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What did I say that wasn?t accurate?

Did you forget what you said
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 07:27:03 AM
@Newbies

Ray Mitchum has accused me of not knowing that an article I posted here from The Onion was a spoof.

I maintain that I'm well aware of The Onion's reputation for satire. To prove this, I invite everyone to visit my topic from March 2018 where I posted another spoof from the Onion
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,346.msg8080.html#msg8080

Please scroll through my posts and notice how I'm clearly aware of the satiric intent

And to think I stood up for Mitchum once against an LNer who accused him of saying something he didn't. Oh well, what else can one expect from this lot. So much for a little largesse..
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 07, 2019, 07:31:28 AM
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My 'Car 54' sarcasm was directed at you

Oh, btw...

Channel 1
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcs9bqkN/dispatcher-channel-one.png)

Channel 2
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qtv7nWKD/DPD-Dispatch-01.png)

@Newbies
Go here and see the dispatch tapes for yourselves
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/
Always remember, If someone told you to jump off a bridge ....you would


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 07, 2019, 07:45:50 AM
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Always remember, If someone told you to jump off a bridge ....you would

Ah, the conspiracy theorist 'appeal to rebellion' fallacy
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Steve Howsley on February 07, 2019, 08:28:31 AM
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@Newbies

Ray Mitchum has accused me of not knowing that an article I posted here from The Onion was a spoof.

I maintain that I'm well aware of The Onion's reputation for satire. To prove this, I invite everyone to visit my topic from March 2018 where I posted another spoof from the Onion
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,346.msg8080.html#msg8080

Please scroll through my posts and notice how I'm clearly aware of the satiric intent

And to think I stood up for Mitchum once against an LNer who accused him of saying something he didn't. Oh well, what else can one expect from this lot. So much for a little largesse..

Bill, Of course it's obvious you knew. Some of these CTers are so desperate to try and land a blow. I remember on at least one other occasion some of them were completely unaware of The Onion and swallowed the article hook, line and sinker until it was pointed out to them.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 07, 2019, 09:09:03 AM
Could Rowland have been the source of the description?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 07, 2019, 10:36:02 AM
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@Newbies

Ray Mitchum has accused me of not knowing that an article I posted here from The Onion was a spoof.

I maintain that I'm well aware of The Onion's reputation for satire. To prove this, I invite everyone to visit my topic from March 2018 where I posted another spoof from the Onion
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,346.msg8080.html#msg8080

Please scroll through my posts and notice how I'm clearly aware of the satiric intent

And to think I stood up for Mitchum once against an LNer who accused him of saying something he didn't. Oh well, what else can one expect from this lot. So much for a little largesse..

It would be nice if you could spell my name correctly. But then you aren't known for being correct, most of the time, Chapman.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 02:55:06 PM
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What did I say that wasn?t accurate?

Did you forget what you said

LOL.  Nothing.  That's what I figured.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
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Read them again and find out why you should quote directly from sources all the time

The dpdtapes pages are just somebody quoting from the police transcripts (of which there are at least three different versions).  This is no different from anybody else quoting from the police transcripts.  Or do you think being on McAdams' site confers some sort of special source status upon a quote?

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 03:06:01 PM
1:08   Dispatcher   Signal 26, 3909 Poinsettia. 1:08. (missing person)       
    599   10-4.       
    261 (Ptm. C.M. Barnhart)   261.       
    Dispatcher   261.       
    261   Got any clothing description yet?       
    Dispatcher   All we have is a white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten, a hundred and sixty-five pounds, armed with a 30 caliber rifle.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 03:50:53 PM
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1:08   Dispatcher   Signal 26, 3909 Poinsettia. 1:08. (missing person)       
    599   10-4.       
    261 (Ptm. C.M. Barnhart)   261.       
    Dispatcher   261.       
    261   Got any clothing description yet?       
    Dispatcher   All we have is a white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten, a hundred and sixty-five pounds, armed with a 30 caliber rifle.

261---   Got any clothing description yet?       
Dispatcher---   All we have is a white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten, a hundred and sixty-five pounds, armed with a 30 caliber rifle.

 Obviously at 1:08 pm, the police were looking for a man who did not fit Lee Oswald's description and who was armed with a 30 caliber rifle

Question:... All references to the rifle quickly evaporated....  At 1:06 Luke Mooney allegedly found a couple of spent shells beneath the Smoker's Nook window in the SE corner of the sixth floor....but the CALIBER of the rifle that had fired the spent shells wasn't determined until about 1:30.   Why did the police stop broadcasting the caliber of the rifle ?    Clearly, Howard Brennan had told the cop that he saw a "HIGH POWERED" ( aka; big game hunting rifle )  being aimed from a TSBD window, and he speculated that the rifle might have been a 30.30 Winchester because he could "see all of the barrel of the gun"

It would appear that "Someone" knew that the rifle that had been planted to frame the patsy was NOT a 30 caliber rifle.....nor was it a big game hunting rifle like a 30.30 Winchester....  That "Someone" knew that the rifle that would be found at 1:22 was an old 6.5mm military rifle that could be traced to Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 04:42:33 PM
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Clearly, Howard Brennan had told the cop that he saw a "HIGH POWERED" ( aka; big game hunting rifle )  being aimed from a TSBD window, and he speculated that the rifle might have been a 30.30 Winchester because he could "see all of the barrel of the gun"

I don't know where they got "30 caliber rifle" from, but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan.  He's not on record as ever saying anything about a 30 caliber rifle.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 08:25:23 PM
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I don't know where they got "30 caliber rifle" from, but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan.  He's not on record as ever saying anything about a 30 caliber rifle.

I don't know where they got "30 caliber rifle" from, but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan.

Thank you, Johnny....Nice of you to be so candid, and admit that you don't know....   That would be a big plus for you except you then attempt to hedge and claim that you do know, by saying...."but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan."   

You make yourself look stupid....because there most certainly is good reason to believe that it was Howard Brennan who initially identified the rifle as a "high powered Rifle" because Brennan was the ONLY person who talked to the police and reported that he'd seen a man aiming a HIGH POWERED rifle from a TSBD window.  And most folks who are familiar with guns will tell you the term "high powered rifle" is synonymous with the term Big game Hunting rifle.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 08:43:59 PM
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I don't know where they got "30 caliber rifle" from, but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan.

Thank you, Johnny....Nice of you to be so candid, and admit that you don't know....   That would be a big plus for you except you then attempt to hedge and claim that you do know, by saying...."but there's no reason to think it came from Brennan."   

You make yourself look stupid....because there most certainly is good reason to believe that it was Howard Brennan who initially identified the rifle as a "high powered Rifle" because Brennan was the ONLY person who talked to the police and reported that he'd seen a man aiming a HIGH POWERED rifle from a TSBD window.  And most folks who are familiar with guns will tell you the term "high powered rifle" is synonymous with the term Big game Hunting rifle.

Again, he's not the only person who talked to police.  I guess that will be WF #85.  Brennan either said "30 caliber rifle" or he didn't.  High powered rifle doesn't cut it.  The police didn't broadcast "high powered rifle".
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 09:42:22 PM
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Again, he's not the only person who talked to police.  I guess that will be WF #85.  Brennan either said "30 caliber rifle" or he didn't.  High powered rifle doesn't cut it.  The police didn't broadcast "high powered rifle".

One of the early broadcasts on the DPD radio reveals that a cop at the scene reported that the suspect was "armed with a 30.30 Winchester or some sort of 30 caliber rifle."

In his affidavit Brennan described the rifle as a "high powered rifle"...If he had seen an old military rifle it's highly unlikely that he would have described it as a "high powered or hunting rifle.....And Brennan said that he could see "all of the barrel of the gun" ....  since only a few inches of the barrel of a carcano model 91/38 are visible it's highly unlikely that he would have said that he could see "all of the barrel"......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 10:06:31 PM
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One of the early broadcasts on the DPD radio reveals that a cop at the scene reported that the suspect was "armed with a 30.30 Winchester or some sort of 30 caliber rifle."

In his affidavit Brennan described the rifle as a "high powered rifle"...If he had seen an old military rifle it's highly unlikely that he would have described it as a "high powered or hunting rifle.....And Brennan said that he could see "all of the barrel of the gun" ....  since only a few inches of the barrel of a carcano model 91/38 are visible it's highly unlikely that he would have said that he could see "all of the barrel"......

You're going off the rails.  I'm not claiming that Brennan saw a Carcano.  I'm asking you to justify why you think Brennan said "30 caliber rifle".  Or even "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester."  There is no record in his affidavit, testimony, or even in Brennan's big book of embellishments that says "30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester".  Neither Sawyer (who's the one who broadcasted that), or Sorrels, or anybody else is on record as saying that info came from Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description
Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.
Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?
Mr. SAWYER. I do not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.
Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?
Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

You'd think that he would have remembered 44-year-old Brennan's big honkin' hard hat...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 11:20:04 PM
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You're going off the rails.  I'm not claiming that Brennan saw a Carcano.  I'm asking you to justify why you think Brennan said "30 caliber rifle".  Or even "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester."  There is no record in his affidavit, testimony, or even in Brennan's big book of embellishments that says "30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester".  Neither Sawyer (who's the one who broadcasted that), or Sorrels, or anybody else is on record as saying that info came from Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description
Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.
Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?
Mr. SAWYER. I do not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.
Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?
Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

You'd think that he would have remembered 44-year-old Brennan's big honkin' hard hat...

I'm asking you to justify why you think Brennan said "30 caliber rifle".  Or even "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester."

Let's stick to the time period Between 12:30 and 2:30 on 11 / 22 /63 ....I don't like to present anything that the cover up committee dumped on us months later....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 11:34:10 PM
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I'm asking you to justify why you think Brennan said "30 caliber rifle".  Or even "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester."

Let's stick to the time period Between 12:30 and 2:30 on 11 / 22 /63 ....I don't like to present anything that the cover up committee dumped on us months later....

Cool.  Find any record of Brennan calling it "30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester" on 11/22.  Or even of anybody else saying that Brennan called it that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 07, 2019, 11:52:48 PM
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Cool.  Find any record of Brennan calling it "30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester" on 11/22.  Or even of anybody else saying that Brennan called it that.

Where did the description come from if not Howard Brennan?    Do you think Sawyer made it up?     
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 07, 2019, 11:57:13 PM
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Where did the description come from if not Howard Brennan?    Do you think Sawyer made it up?   

Good questions.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 08, 2019, 12:36:22 AM
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Good questions.

Is that your answer?....  Surely you're bright enough to deduce that the description of... " a 30.30 Winchester, or some type of 30 caliber rifle"  didn't just flash on the Hertz sign....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 08, 2019, 07:36:30 AM
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Ah, the conspiracy theorist 'appeal to rebellion' fallacy
Sorry, William, I am not a conspiracy theorist. If I had to pick the one that people find to be the most entertaining,  hmmmm it would be the one you're certainly familiar with. Correct me if I am wrong, but these small-brain animals try to convince the world that some guy who has three names supposedly killed Kennedy with a gun he never had. It's actually is quite peculiar, does it ring a bell. Feel free to share your thoughts. Maybe your brother Raymond will share his thoughts too, but remember, he's very sensitive when it comes to spelling his name
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 09, 2019, 05:31:38 PM
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Are you askin Navarro why he wastin time attacking CT's and lying about the case, if LBJ's Special select Blue Ribbon Committee's "essential  conclusions" are accurate and valid....?

Says the guy with a thread that numbers his fabrications.  :D Should be in the triple digits by now.

When did Junior Jarman ever say that he heard from a motorcycle radio that the motorcade was reaching Main St as you claim? Let's add this to the list.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 09, 2019, 06:40:51 PM
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Says the guy with a thread that numbers his fabrications.  :D Should be in the triple digits by now.

When did Junior Jarman ever say that he heard from a motorcycle radio that the motorcade was reaching Main St as you claim? Let's add this to the list.

Duh,Dumbass...  Jarman, Norman and Givens were standing at the front of the TSBD near a DPD police motorcycle with the radio announcing the progress of the motorcade ...They knew the motorcade was approaching Main street when they decided to go up to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade.

How do you think they knew the location of the parade??   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 09, 2019, 10:48:15 PM
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Says the guy with a thread that numbers his fabrications.  :D Should be in the triple digits by now.

When did Junior Jarman ever say that he heard from a motorcycle radio that the motorcade was reaching Main St as you claim? Let's add this to the list.

Here is what Norman said.....

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

He doesn?t say how or from whom he got the news. Maybe it was second hand. But there was a transmission from car 1, that they were approaching Main about 12.22pm. Why would Norman make that up? How do you know that wasn?t the reason Jarman and Norman changed from going with Givens to the parking lot on Record to the 5th floor of the TSBD?


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 10, 2019, 05:18:35 AM
12:22pm Norman and Jarman "hear the news" , begin their return to TSBD 5th floor.

12:23pm N/J enter rear door of TSBD 1st floor, and walk to the rear staircase

12:24:30 N/J have reached the 5th floor having taken 90 sec to go up 5 flights 18 step staircases, and 80 ft of floor landings

12:24:30- 12:25pm, N/J travel across 5th floor about 150 ft, arriving at their respective windows by 12:25

12:25pm: Bonnie Ray Williams East Elevator from 6th floor arrives on 5th floor. Any earlier, Norman and Jarman are likely seen by BRW or vice versa, walking on the floor, as opposed to already being in place at their windows.

Factoid: Bronson Film presumed to have started at 12:24 pm, 6 minutes prior to JFK motorccade entering DEaley Plaza, shows that there is a box in the window of the SE 6th floor corner window. There is no one seen placing it there. It is ALREADY there, when the Bronson film begins.

Problem: If Oswald had returned immediatelyfrom 2nd floor lunchroom after a 12:17 encounter with Carolyn Arnold, then Oswald was hiding probably on the 6th floor staircase going "up" to 7th floor and waiting for BRW to leave the floor. But how does Oswald get to the SE window by 12:23:30 if BRW is still on the floor and not taking elevator down to 5th floor until 12:25pm?


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 10, 2019, 06:20:31 AM
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12:22pm Norman and Jarman "hear the news" , begin their return to TSBD 5th floor.

12:23pm N/J enter rear door of TSBD 1st floor, and walk to the rear staircase

12:24:30 N/J have reached the 5th floor having taken 90 sec to go up 5 flights 18 step staircases, and 80 ft of floor landings

12:24:30- 12:25pm, N/J travel across 5th floor about 150 ft, arriving at their respective windows by 12:25

12:25pm: Bonnie Ray Williams East Elevator from 6th floor arrives on 5th floor. Any earlier, Norman and Jarman are likely seen by BRW or vice versa, walking on the floor, as opposed to already being in place at their windows.

Factoid: Bronson Film presumed to have started at 12:24 pm, 6 minutes prior to JFK motorccade entering DEaley Plaza, shows that there is a box in the window of the SE 6th floor corner window. There is no one seen placing it there. It is ALREADY there, when the Bronson film begins.

Problem: If Oswald had returned immediatelyfrom 2nd floor lunchroom after a 12:17 encounter with Carolyn Arnold, then Oswald was hiding probably on the 6th floor staircase going "up" to 7th floor and waiting for BRW to leave the floor. But how does Oswald get to the SE window by 12:23:30 if BRW is still on the floor and not taking elevator down to 5th floor until 12:25pm?

Slight correction Zeno, Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the sixth. From memory it took about 30 seconds or so for the elevator to go the five floors.

The timing is much later for those events than the WC proposed. The additional problem for the official "story" is that the unfinished chicken lunch was found in the SN windows by the first officers who made statements about the crime scene. Someone moved it before Fritz arrived. Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it. No wonder as for a few days it was claimed to be the assassin?s.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 10, 2019, 06:00:54 PM
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Slight correction Zeno, Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the sixth. From memory it took about 30 seconds or so for the elevator to go the five floors.

The timing is much later for those events than the WC proposed. The additional problem for the official "story" is that the unfinished chicken lunch was found in the SN windows by the first officers who made statements about the crime scene. Someone moved it before Fritz arrived. Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it. No wonder as for a few days it was claimed to be the assassin?s.

Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it.

Don't you think that it's odd that Williams didn't acknowledge immediately that he'd eaten his lunch there in the SE corner of the sixth floor?   

I suspect that it was the police who didn't want the public to know that Williams had been there on the sixth floor until just a few minutes before the murder.

WHY?? Would the cops endeavor to keep the public in the dark?    It seems clear that Williams had seen someone there on the sixth floor just like witnesses on the street below had seen a 175 pound white man in his mid thirties, who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing .....   But the police did not want us pissants to know that.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 10, 2019, 08:41:00 PM
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It would be nice if you could spell my name correctly. But then you aren't known for being correct, most of the time, Chapman.

No one is 'correct' to you lot unless they are CTers

You have not shown any interest in acknowledging my demonstrated understanding of satire. Yet you are worried about having your name spelled correctly.

@Newbies: Another shallow CTer observed
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 10, 2019, 09:17:00 PM
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Did you forget what you said


LOL.  Nothing.  That's what I figured.

I wouldn't have posted the dispatch graphic if you hadn't said something inaccurate.
Why don't you actually do some work and find out for yourself where you were inaccurate...

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 10, 2019, 11:43:05 PM
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Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it.

Don't you think that it's odd that Williams didn't acknowledge immediately that he'd eaten his lunch there in the SE corner of the sixth floor?   

I suspect that it was the police who didn't want the public to know that Williams had been there on the sixth floor until just a few minutes before the murder.

WHY?? Would the cops endeavor to keep the public in the dark?    It seems clear that Williams had seen someone there on the sixth floor just like witnesses on the street below had seen a 175 pound white man in his mid thirties, who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing .....   But the police did not want us pissants to know that.

What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2019, 12:02:33 AM
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What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.

We know that the witnesses on the street in front of the TSBD said they saw a white man in light colored clothing moving around from place to place from about 12:15 and 12:30 ( the time of the murder) We know that Lee Oswald didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing as described by Howard Brennan.   

So it should be obvious that BRW was not alone there on the sixth floor and the man in the light colored clothing was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Bottom line... Mr Williams KNEW with 100% certainty that he had not seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor between 12:15 and 12:28.....  The question is...Did he see the thirty something year old man, who weighed 175 pounds, and was dressed in light colored khaki clothing????   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 11, 2019, 12:49:12 AM
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We know that the witnesses on the street in front of the TSBD said they saw a white man in light colored clothing moving around from place to place from about 12:15 and 12:30 ( the time of the murder) We know that Lee Oswald didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing as described by Howard Brennan.   

So it should be obvious that BRW was not alone there on the sixth floor and the man in the light colored clothing was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Bottom line... Mr Williams KNEW with 100% certainty that he had not seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor between 12:15 and 12:28.....  The question is...Did he see the thirty something year old man, who weighed 175 pounds, and was dressed in light colored khaki clothing????

Interesting to know what Williams saw. If he did see someone I think his first day statement rules out Oswald. His actions show he seems more interested in watching the motorcade "with others", even at the risk of missing it all together. He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
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Interesting to know what Williams saw. If he did see someone I think his first day statement rules out Oswald. His actions show he seems more interested in watching the motorcade "with others", even at the risk of missing it all together. He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

 He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

Yes....And he left in haste,.....leaving his lunch behind... uneaten.  The photos of Williams that were taken by reporters on the street in front of the TSBD and in the back of the police car, show a very worried ( or frightened) young man.....

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 11, 2019, 02:26:15 AM
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Slight correction Zeno, Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the sixth. From memory it took about 30 seconds or so for the elevator to go the five floors.

The timing is much later for those events than the WC proposed. The additional problem for the official "story" is that the unfinished chicken lunch was found in the SN windows by the first officers who made statements about the crime scene. Someone moved it before Fritz arrived. Williams (eventually) admitted to the lunch being his and was vague about where he left it. No wonder as for a few days it was claimed to be the assassin?s.


Thankyou Colin for that correction. Jarman WC testimony verifies that:

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


"A Few Minutes Later" = 2 minutes after Jarman and Norman are at their windows, having arrive there, not earlier than 12:24, even if using the West elevator. Which means 12:26 the earilest BRW arrives to their windows.


So the problem is still unresolved, how Oswald could have gone onto the floor of 6th floor and get to the SE corner window by 12:23:30 in time to have placed a box in the window so it would be recorded in the Bronson film at 12:24.


How does BRW and "the box placing person/shooter or Oswald) miss each other, traveling on the 6th floor if Bonnie Ray Williams is still at the SE window at 12:22 because if he left then, it would have only taken him 30 sec to reach either West or East Elevator, thus would have been on the 5th floor by 12:23 BEFORE Jarman and Norman even reentered the back door of the TSBD at approx 12:23 because they had just walked around the building from the front to rear, after having heard the 12:22 radio transmission or someone talking about the "news" that JFK limo was approaching


Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.





 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 11, 2019, 03:57:10 AM
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Thankyou Colin for that correction. Jarman WC testimony verifies that:

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


"A Few Minutes Later" = 2 minutes after Jarman and Norman are at their windows, having arrive there, not earlier than 12:24, even if using the West elevator. Which means 12:26 the earilest BRW arrives to their windows.


So the problem is still unresolved, how Oswald could have gone onto the floor of 6th floor and get to the SE corner window by 12:23:30 in time to have placed a box in the window so it would be recorded in the Bronson film at 12:24.


How does BRW and "the box placing person/shooter or Oswald) miss each other, traveling on the 6th floor if Bonnie Ray Williams is still at the SE window at 12:22 because if he left then, it would have only taken him 30 sec to reach either West or East Elevator, thus would have been on the 5th floor by 12:23 BEFORE Jarman and Norman even reentered the back door of the TSBD at approx 12:23 because they had just walked around the building from the front to rear, after having heard the 12:22 radio transmission or someone talking about the "news" that JFK limo was approaching


Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.


Williams took the east elevator up to the 6th and down to the 5th. The east elevator could only be operated manually, ie "driven" by an operator, so once Williams had taken it up to the 6th, only someone on that floor could enter and operate it.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 11, 2019, 06:35:20 PM
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What we know is that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion. He was at the police station because Fritz had asked Stenkel to collect all those who had been on that floor during the morning and obtain statements from them. Arce, Lovelady, Dougherty and Shelley were also at the police station when Oswald was brought in. He was also aware that the 6th floor was important.  Also, he and Jarman and Norman claimed they heard shots above them.Williams did not know that his lunch was a factor at the time he made the first statement. He likely heard of its importance during the evening and next day. 

Also at this time the police knew from Rowland that there was someone wandering around the sixth floor with a rifle about 12.15 or so.

His unfinished lunch was originally found in the SN (but moved shortly after the discovery of the shells) and he left the 6th floor about 5 minutes before the shots rang out.

Just a few hours after the President was shot, Williams says nothing of his presence on the sixth floor after the "elevator race". He also says nothing about seeing Oswald just prior to the shooting.

we know that Williams was aware that Oswald was in custody and under suspicion.

That's true, but at the time that BRW was at the police station,  Williams had no way of knowing that Lee Oswald was going to be charged as the lone nut assassin who fired from the SE corner window where he had eaten his lunch.    Williams apparently thought that Lee was a suspect who had been involved .... 

If BRW had known that Lee was going to be accused of firing a rifle from the sixth floor,  Would BRW have said..." Hey, I was eating my lunch on the sixth floor and I never saw Lee Oswald there while I was there". 

Personally, I believe Williams could have honestly made that statement while he was at the police station....   But at that time nobody was saying that Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald the arch villain had fired that old military rifle from  Bonnie Ray Williams lunch table.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 01:42:13 AM
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZW3SY5P/83-E24-E49-1835-4112-A715-4-DC60-D74-FD5-A.jpg)

The brief that analysis lawyers Ball, Belin etc were essentially working from.

"We are supposed to be closing doors not opening them." J Lee Rankin.

The Warren Report. A timely sedative that served a purpose for us all.

The Presidents Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy was established by Executive Order NO. 11130 on November 29, 1963. Senate Joint Resolution 137 (Public Law 88-102) empowered the commission to issue subpoenas. The CJUS, two senators, two congressmen, and two private citizens made up the Presidents Commission. J. Lee Rankin was selected as Chief Counsel after the first nominee was rejected by the Commission members as being to close to CJ Warren. This rejection gave notice to Warren that the commission was not to be a rubber stamp for the leaders wishes (although Commission Members did yield to Warren's unfortunate decision not to make the autopsy photos and X--Ray's available to the Commission thus yielding to Warren's over sensitive feelings for the former POTUS). J. Lee Rankin was a former assistant attorney general and the Solicitor General of the United States during the Eisenhower Administration before moving to private practice January, 1961

The Commission was made up of 14 Assistant Counsel and 12 named staff members plus additional personnel were hired to perform specialized functions, such as for the writing of the report.
The Assistant Counsel;

Francis W. H. Adams, (Satterlee, Warfield, & Stephens private law firm based in NYC and D.C)
Joseph A. Ball, (Ball, Hunt & Hart private law firm based in Long Beach and Santa Ana, CA)
David W. Belin, (Herrick, Langdon, Sandblom & Belin, private law firm based in Des Moines, Iowa)
William T. Coleman, Jr., (Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, Kohn & Dilks private law firm based in Philadelphia)
Melvin Aron Eisenberg, (Kaye, Scholer, Fierman, Hays & Handler private law firm based in NYC)
Burt W. Griffin, (MacDonald, Hopkins, & Hardy private law firm based in Cleveland, OH)
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., (Hubert, Bladwin & Zibilich private law firm in NO, Louisiana)
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., (Raymond, Meyer, Jenner & Block private law firm based in Chicago)
Wesley L. Liebeler, (Carter, Ledyard & Milburn private law firm based in NYC)
Norman Redlich, (Professor of Law, NYU)
W. David Slawson, (Davis, Graham & Stubbs private law firm based in Denver, CO)
Arlen Specter, (assistant Philadelphia district attorney and private law firm of Specter & Katz, Philadelphia, PA)
Samuel A. Stern, (Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering private law firm based in D. C)
Howard P. Willens, (Second Assistant, Criminal Division USDJ)

Of the 14 Assistant Counsel selected to conduct the overwhelming majority of witness interrogation and selection of witnesses 12 came directly from private practice, one a law professor and one, Willens, was the only associate member who worked for the federal government prior to being selected. It was these guys who collected and analyzed the reports submitted by various agencies of the federal, state and local government for the purpose of determining the value and truthfulness of witnesses. When expert witnesses were called the associate members in whose area the testimony fell had the responsibility to become very familiar with the subject. Whenever you see an FBI report of any type of investigation dated after the initial FBI investigation report was submitted it was thanks to the associate members insistence that such investigations were conducted. These guys weren't forced to take pay cuts, time away from their family, perform long hours of exhausting work in cramped quarters just to rubber stamp what is presented by many as just a forgone conclusion. They had doubts, their own agendas, their own theories and they certainly didn't have any obligations to the commission or the federal government that would require them to be in a position that their jobs and careers were on the line unless orders were strictly followed. They were there to perform their duty as they saw fit and  were free to leave and not be held accountable, as some did.

 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 01:48:25 AM
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He either saw the shot or he didn't.  Which is it?

By the way, Brennan also claimed in his book that he saw JFK's head explode.  That's some fast reflexes there.

P.S. How do you know that Brennan "identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor"?  Did he specify who was who and what window each were at?  What about Williams?  And were those guys crouched behind boxes or hanging out windows?

Brennan definitely identified both Jarman and Norman. Read his testimony.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 02:07:38 AM
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Here is what Norman said.....

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

He doesn?t say how or from whom he got the news. Maybe it was second hand. But there was a transmission from car 1, that they were approaching Main about 12.22pm. Why would Norman make that up? How do you know that wasn?t the reason Jarman and Norman changed from going with Givens to the parking lot on Record to the 5th floor of the TSBD?

The motorcade was running late and maybe someone in the crowd thought the motorcade should be in Main St by now...like 12:15 so that's the possible source for Norman's initial 12:15 PM time. As I have said before I don't believe any of the three Amigos was lying. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 12, 2019, 03:01:20 AM
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The motorcade was running late and maybe someone in the crowd thought the motorcade should be in Main St by now...like 12:15 so that's the possible source for Norman's initial 12:15 PM time. As I have said before I don't believe any of the three Amigos was lying.

What Norman said......

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me." 12/4/63

Not a specific time but an approximation.......

What did he say on March 18?

When did Jarman say they all went up?

When did Williams say they all went up in his first day statement? Of course after that his "story" changed.



Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 12, 2019, 05:53:11 AM
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The motorcade was running late and maybe someone in the crowd thought the motorcade should be in Main St by now...like 12:15 so that's the possible source for Norman's initial 12:15 PM time. As I have said before I don't believe any of the three Amigos was lying.
Of course, you don't

Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.
Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Question:   Why does cement dust fall on William's head, if it actually did?
Answer: gravity

The real question is about: When Norman says to Williams "you got something on your head"  and then Jarman says to Williams "yes man, don't brush it out"
Explain why Jarman would tell him not to "brush it out"?    It sure seems Williams likes to have a keen observation of fine detail and oddly enough adds more then he is asked of like he is coached which explains the pictures they have of the 3 as if they are from the actual moment of the assassination. Total shell game
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 12, 2019, 06:48:38 AM
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Brennan definitely identified both Jarman and Norman. Read his testimony.

That?s because Williams was not with them at the time. Not so sure about who he identified but the important information was there were only two on the fifth floor. Brennan did not get into position sitting on the wall until the ambulance officers had attended to Belknap.....12.24.

Brennan likely saw Williams, wearing khaki, leave the SN to join them and assumed it to be the assassin.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
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Brennan definitely identified both Jarman and Norman. Read his testimony.

At the time Brennan worked with an author to write a book, he had seen quite a few funerals of witnesses who had had fatal accidents, and he saw  the handwriting on the wall.    He had testified and realized that LBJ's "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" was not seeking the truth .... Citing his book is about the same as citing the Warren Report....or Alice in Wonderland.....   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 07:47:08 PM
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What Norman said......

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me." 12/4/63

Not a specific time but an approximation.......

What did he say on March 18?

When did Jarman say they all went up?

When did Williams say they all went up in his first day statement? Of course after that his "story" changed.

I posted this on January 31st and have yet to see your response to the matter addressed. Let me give you another opportunity to do so;

"The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?"


After you have addressed the above post I'll have a better idea of what all this Three Stooges stage act is all about.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 08:02:38 PM
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That?s because Williams was not with them at the time. Not so sure about who he identified but the important information was there were only two on the fifth floor. Brennan did not get into position sitting on the wall until the ambulance officers had attended to Belknap.....12.24.

Brennan likely saw Williams, wearing khaki, leave the SN to join them and assumed it to be the assassin.

That's not it. Belin wanted to find out if Brennan could have had a good view of Oswald on the SN so he challenged Brennan's ability to recognize individuals on the fifth floor windows as being one and the same as the two whom he saw while being questioned by the police. It's an interesting story as told in Belin's book You Are The Jury. When I get a chance I'll post the exchanges as they were transcribed during Brennan's testimony.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 12, 2019, 08:04:57 PM
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At the time Brennan worked with an author to write a book, he had seen quite a few funerals of witnesses who had had fatal accidents, and he saw  the handwriting on the wall.    He had testified and realized that LBJ's "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" was not seeking the truth .... Citing his book is about the same as citing the Warren Report....or Alice in Wonderland.....

I'm not citing his book. It's from Brennan's WC testimony and from David Belin's You Are The Jury lends context.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 12, 2019, 08:51:40 PM
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I posted this on January 31st and have yet to see your response to the matter addressed. Let me give you another opportunity to do so;

"The salient point that proves what!!! Tell me if I'm correctly summarizing your theory;

1) According to you BRW was at one point in the SN and that Jarman and Norman were covering for BRW by claiming they all walked together to the fifth floor.

2) This coverup is supposed to have begun soon after all three were taken in for questioning.

My questions are;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

B) How does the pre-WC testimony jive with Givens testimony that he was with Jarman and Norman only...no BRW

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

C) Did BRW join Jarman and Norman after Givens left? If he did where the heck was BRW before he joined Jarman and Norman?

D) If BRW saw Oswald in the SN so what? The Dillard photo and the testimony of Jarman and Norman and that of Brennan exonarate BRW from being an accesory to the crime. I mean, why would Jarman and Norman risk themselves for being accesories to the crime by covering up for BRW if they thought he had something to do with the crime. By accesory to the crime I mean that's the only fear that would cause BRW to believe he was in any danger and needed Norman and Jarman to cover for him. It's only logical to me that if BRW had seen Oswald in the SN, even if BRW didn't see the rifle and thought Oswald was just one of the many watching the motorcade, that once he and Junior and Norman heard the shots coming from right above, that BRW would not be so stupid as to not put two and two together and tell his fifth floor buddies that he just saw Oswald were the shots came from.

F) Why would Jarman and Norman go along with covering for BRW if it was an innocent encounter?

G) Being an accesory to a murder, especially to that of the POTUS, is a pretty serious offense. Do you really believe that David Belin would have gone along with the coverup? Do you really believe that David Belin would not have brought out in the open an attempt at a cover up of any kind?"


After you have addressed the above post I'll have a better idea of what all this Three Stooges stage act is all about.

And I posted this response the same day......

"The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that."

if you are going to summarise someone?s theory at least get it right. Perhaps go back and read the original statements and work out why you think the planned deception started after they were taken in for questioning and not before.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 12, 2019, 09:32:39 PM
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I'm not citing his book. It's from Brennan's WC testimony and from David Belin's You Are The Jury lends context.

Brennan's WC testimony is not much better than his book....  Brennan wasn't stupid....He realized immediately that there was a skunk lurking nearby when the cops took him to the police station and twisted his arm ( figuratively) to identify Lee Oswald as the man that he said that he had seen aiming a hunting rifle out of a TSBD window. They refused to allow him to say that the man was not Lee Oswald....and badgered him by asking how he could be sure the man wasn't Oswald.   Brennan replied " Well for one thing Oswald was dressed differently than the man I saw"   The man that I saw was wearing light colored khaki clothing, just as I wrote in my sworn affidavit this afternoon.... And another reason that I'm sure that Oswald isn't the man is because he's a lot skinnier than the man that I saw, that man weighed at least 165 pounds, and Oswald looks to be about 130 pounds" 

I believe that Brennan was under the illusion that the Warren Commission was truly looking for the truth, until they stated questioning him and twisting his words...He then became aware that it wasn't the DPD alone who were covering up the murder ....and the authorities had made veiled threats ( suggestions) that his family could be in danger.    Brennan took the hint.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 12, 2019, 11:54:09 PM
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Brennan definitely identified both Jarman and Norman. Read his testimony.

I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 12:10:40 AM
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I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.

John, please see my thread here discussing this....

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 13, 2019, 12:11:52 AM
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And I posted this response the same day......

"The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that."

if you are going to summarise someone?s theory at least get it right. Perhaps go back and read the original statements and work out why you think the planned deception started after they were taken in for questioning and not before.

Ah! So you think the Jarman, Norman and BRW coverup/deception began before they were taken in for questioning. Then I'm sure you can answer;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor
 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 12:33:31 AM
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Ah! So you think the Jarman, Norman and BRW coverup/deception began before they were taken in for questioning. Then I'm sure you can answer;

A) Why did the narrative change during the WC testimony to reflect that BRW had not walked together with Norman and Jarman to the fifth floor

Because the conflicting statements were "sorted" by Belin and Ball during their visit to Dallas just days before the WC testimonies were taken. Have you seen the Ball/Belin internal memo to Willens of March 18 (from memory)? They posed some of the same questions I have......they had access to the same statements. They were not dumb.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 13, 2019, 12:54:58 AM
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I have.

Where did you get the idea that he "definitely identified both Jarman and Norman"?

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.
Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.

That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 13, 2019, 01:01:14 AM
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Because the conflicting statements were "sorted" by Belin and Ball during their visit to Dallas just days before the WC testimonies were taken. Have you seen the Ball/Belin internal memo to Willens of March 18 (from memory)? They posed some of the same questions I have......they had access to the same statements. They were not dumb.

NSS! All the assistant counsel had access to every statement given by the witnesses and other witnesses related to the particular subject before their testimony. The purpose of the witness testimony before the WC and associate counsel was to get the full story and to question the witnesses of any inconsistencies and/or omissions.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 01:04:27 AM
And where were Jarman and Norman questioned by the WC about their previous statements that indicated Williams went up with them........pfft
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 01:06:33 AM
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That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

See here regarding his identification of the two men on the 5th floor.....

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1712.0.html)

Did the WR report rely on Brennan's ID of Oswald btw?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 13, 2019, 05:43:02 AM
And to compound the problem  of BRW and a 6th floor shooter missing each other in this 12:21- 12:23 time frame,leaving and entering the SE window by each party, is the supposed presence of Jack Dougherty on BOTH the 5th floor and the 6th floor during the same period of time.

This is a very difficult logistical tangle to work out.

Add in a possible revelation that Sarah Staunton (per interview with relatives), may be a 2nd witness to Oswald on the 2nd floor with a coke near or at the 2nd floor lunchroom , and since Staunton goes out to join BW Frazier, Lovelady on the front entrance steps, BEFORE Carolyn Arnold did, the time approaches ever closer to be nearly RIGHT AT 12:15 of Oswald being seen in the lunchroom.

So either Oswald was really seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom so close to 12:15, thats it nearly simultaneous with Arnold Rowlands SW window shooter observation timestamp of 12:15,, OR, Oswald went up and down TWICE to the 6th floor after being seen by Sarah Staunton about 12:13, then Staunton leaves, and then at 12:17, Oswald is seen by Carolyn Arnold, having returned again to the lunchroom from 6th floor.


And Oswald has to do this trekking up and down the staircases, while BRW is still on the 6th floor, and while Jack Dougherty  is still supposedly working "getting stock" on both 6th and 5th floors, without being seen or heard by BRW or Jack Dougherty.


And Oswald also has to time precisely when to return to 6th floor just before Normand and Jarman, which would be just 1 or 2 minutes after having meet Carolyn Arnold at 12:17, and Oswald able to get past Jack Dougherty AGAIN for about the THIRD time.

Imo, there are only 2 probable places that Oswald could have hidden during upon returning a THIRD time to the 6th floor.

1. The 6th to 7th floor staircase, going "up" and at the midlanding, Oswalc would be generally out of sight, but still have probabilty to hear elevators in operation. Oswald is position to at least hear the elevator. Also Oswald is in proximity to hear voices, so he could have heard Norman and Jarmans voices on the 5th floor elevator possibly, as they exited the elevator on the 5th floor.


2. Oswald actually hid himself ON the 6th floor, having ability to see thru some crack in stack of boxes but was hidden from view of BRW. IF Oswald is in fact the gunman Arnold Rowland saw, then Oswald IS aware beforehand on returning to the 6th floor after being seen by Carolyn Arnold about 12:17, that BRW is probably STILL on the floor, and Oswald chooses a place to hide that will facilitate being able to see when BRW leaves.


How Oswald avoids being seen by Jack Dougherty is another question though, and it may require a propositon that Jack was actually taking a nap somewhere instead of actually working, and was in a corner asleep during all this movement of 4 persons  using elevators amd staorcase. and walking across both 6th and 5th floors, yet unseen and unheard by JD.



Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 07:27:33 AM
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And to compound the problem  of BRW and a 6th floor shooter missing each other in this 12:21- 12:23 time frame,leaving and entering the SE window by each party, is the supposed presence of Jack Dougherty on BOTH the 5th floor and the 6th floor during the same period of time.

This is a very difficult logistical tangle to work out.

Add in a possible revelation that Sarah Staunton (per interview with relatives), may be a 2nd witness to Oswald on the 2nd floor with a coke near or at the 2nd floor lunchroom , and since Staunton goes out to join BW Frazier, Lovelady on the front entrance steps, BEFORE Carolyn Arnold did, the time approaches ever closer to be nearly RIGHT AT 12:15 of Oswald being seen in the lunchroom.

So either Oswald was really seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom so close to 12:15, thats it nearly simultaneous with Arnold Rowlands SW window shooter observation timestamp of 12:15,, OR, Oswald went up and down TWICE to the 6th floor after being seen by Sarah Staunton about 12:13, then Staunton leaves, and then at 12:17, Oswald is seen by Carolyn Arnold, having returned again to the lunchroom from 6th floor.


And Oswald has to do this trekking up and down the staircases, while BRW is still on the 6th floor, and while Jack Dougherty  is still supposedly working "getting stock" on both 6th and 5th floors, without being seen or heard by BRW or Jack Dougherty.


And Oswald also has to time precisely when to return to 6th floor just before Normand and Jarman, which would be just 1 or 2 minutes after having meet Carolyn Arnold at 12:17, and Oswald able to get past Jack Dougherty AGAIN for about the THIRD time.

Imo, there are only 2 probable places that Oswald could have hidden during upon returning a THIRD time to the 6th floor.

1. The 6th to 7th floor staircase, going "up" and at the midlanding, Oswalc would be generally out of sight, but still have probabilty to hear elevators in operation. Oswald is position to at least hear the elevator. Also Oswald is in proximity to hear voices, so he could have heard Norman and Jarmans voices on the 5th floor elevator possibly, as they exited the elevator on the 5th floor.


2. Oswald actually hid himself ON the 6th floor, having ability to see thru some crack in stack of boxes but was hidden from view of BRW. IF Oswald is in fact the gunman Arnold Rowland saw, then Oswald IS aware beforehand on returning to the 6th floor after being seen by Carolyn Arnold about 12:17, that BRW is probably STILL on the floor, and Oswald chooses a place to hide that will facilitate being able to see when BRW leaves.


How Oswald avoids being seen by Jack Dougherty is another question though, and it may require a propositon that Jack was actually taking a nap somewhere instead of actually working, and was in a corner asleep during all this movement of 4 persons  using elevators amd staorcase. and walking across both 6th and 5th floors, yet unseen and unheard by JD.

Zeon, with respect to the elevators, Williams essentially locks away the east elevator on the 6th floor from the time he arrives until he departs, some time after 12.25pm. This left the west elevator available. We know Norman and Jarman ascended just before 12.25pm and used the west elevator. They noticed the east elevator already on a high floor from the ground floor. After exiting on the fifth they closed the gates on the west elevator allowing it to be "called" remotely. It would seem that Dougherty then called the west elevator down and took it to the 6th floor. He claimed to have gone momentarily to the 6th floor, leaving the gates open. He then claimed to have taken the west elevator down to the fifth floor just before the shots. The west elevator  and east elevator were both on upper floors when Truly and Baker tried to use them. Dougherty must have once again left the gates open on the west elevator as it was not able to be "called" by Truly.

As for Oswald sightings, it seems there was a gunman on the sixth floor about 12.15 (Rowland?s observation). Carolyn Arnold had two varying stories, the original talked of seeing him near the front door well after 12.15, the second in the second floor lunch room, about 12.15. I am not sure what to make of those versions.

Certainly the WR version of action on the 6th floor does not convey a scene with at least three people there over the five minutes before the shooting.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2019, 07:31:31 AM
Hello to DVP......feel free to correct anything David.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 13, 2019, 12:49:37 PM
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That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald. The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD. When Brennan said "I explained that to you this morning" he was referring to his opinion that he would not be able to tell blacks apart (or something to that effect) until the morning of the 22nd but Brennan did not want to repeat that in front of BRW, Jarman and Norman.

The major factor was that neither Norman or Jarman had yet to give their WC testimony so there was no way of Ball and Belin knowing they were the ones that saw Brennan in front of the TSBD.

Utterly absurd!!...   Six months after the event and you are proposing that The lawyers were just learning the details....??
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 13, 2019, 05:08:59 PM
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That's the part of Brennan's testimony that convinced both Belin and Ball that Brennan could identify Oswald.

That is so "convincing"!

"I am not sure. . . I don't know which of those two. . . No; I won't say for sure. . .Am I right or wrong?"

Maybe he was right the first time.  He saw a couple of black guys in the window, saw two black guys come out and assumed they were the same guys (and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door).  Then he sat with them on the plane to Washington and his memory "improved".

How many black guys walked out of the TSBD after the assassination?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 13, 2019, 07:34:26 PM
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That is so "convincing"!

"I am not sure. . . I don't know which of those two. . . No; I won't say for sure. . .Am I right or wrong?"

Maybe he was right the first time.  He saw a couple of black guys in the window, saw two black guys come out and assumed they were the same guys (and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door).  Then he sat with them on the plane to Washington and his memory "improved".

How many black guys walked out of the TSBD after the assassination?

and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door

Oswald walked out the back door according to Buell as per his C-Span interview 2002
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 14, 2019, 12:06:56 AM
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and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door

Oswald walked out the back door according to Buell as per his C-Span interview 2002

I know, but given that Oscar just parrots the WC narrative, I doubt he believes that either.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 12:58:23 AM
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and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door

Oswald walked out the back door according to Buell as per his C-Span interview 2002

So you were not convinced by the effort put in by the WC into refuting the notion that the assassin escaped out the back door. Do you think it is possible the assassin escaped that way?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 14, 2019, 06:30:17 AM
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He left the SN at the time JFK was scheduled to pass.

Yes....And he left in haste,.....leaving his lunch behind... uneaten.  The photos of Williams that were taken by reporters on the street in front of the TSBD and in the back of the police car, show a very worried ( or frightened) young man.....
Have you seen this angle - the west side of the TSBD just minutes after the assassination? The guy talking has a different and sometimes funny perspective than most but points out many things the average person would never see.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 14, 2019, 07:07:11 AM
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So you were not convinced by the effort put in by the WC into refuting the notion that the assassin escaped out the back door. Do you think it is possible the assassin escaped that way?

Buell seemed more than a little foggy in that 39 years after-the-fact interview
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 14, 2019, 08:55:10 AM
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Buell seemed more than a little foggy in that 39 years after-the-fact interview

So your purpose in throwing that spanner was? To then claim him to be confused......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 14, 2019, 07:50:19 PM
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So your purpose in throwing that spanner was? To then claim him to be confused......

JohnI had asked why Brennan didn't see Oswald come out front. I simply reminded ppl about Buell's 2002 claims. If you can find where I said I supported those claims, by all means point that out.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 15, 2019, 12:30:28 AM
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JohnI had asked why Brennan didn't see Oswald come out front. I simply reminded ppl about Buell's 2002 claims. If you can find where I said I supported those claims, by all means point that out.

So you agree with John assertion that Oswald walked past Brennan. You were simply trying to include any possible counter evidence in the interests of fairness. Sort of a public service announcement for all.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 15, 2019, 12:47:39 AM
(http://grandsubversion.com/jfkAssassination/nobotimg/dlspt1/school_book_depository_03.jpg)


Bronson film frame at approx. 5 to 6 minutes before JFK motorcade arrives.


approx. 12:24 earliest to 12:25 latest


So can anyone see Norman in the 5th floor window? Because both Jarman and Norman would have to be at their windows FOR CERTAIN if they left even as late as 12:22pm. Is there anyway to enhance the Bronson film enought to determine if Norman is at his window at 12:24?


The box is in the window on the 6th floor SE window at this time of 12:24 to 12:25




Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 15, 2019, 01:19:47 AM
 Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


Since it appears, imo, that the 5th floor window IS open in the Bronson film, then it is reasonable probability that Norman has raised it just before Bronson film begins not earler thatn 12:25, so likely Norman did get there by AT LEAST 12:24.


That means Norman/Jarman had to have left from front of TSBD not later than 12:22pm, treked 250 ft at 5 ft pers second, around the perimeter of the TSBD so entered the rear door approx 45 sec then 35 sec to take elevator to 5th floor at 1 floor per 7 sec speed, then walked acoss about another 160 tt in 40 sec, so its reasonable probable time required of 2 minutes to be at their windows and have raised the windows.

For Jarmans statement that BRW joined them "a few minutes later" ie: at least 2 minutes later, means that if Norman and Jarman left at 12:22, and dont get to their windows untill 12:24, then BRW did not join them until 12:26


This is improbable, since the 6th floor SE shooter has to have been IN the snipers nest approx by 12:23 to have some time to choose on the spot, which boxes he wants to move, and or stack, and gets this done by 12:24 and also hides himself from view of the Bronson film perspective.



What reason would Jarman and Norman have had to leave EARLIER than the 12:22 radio news the JFK limo was about to approach?










Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 05:47:20 PM
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Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.


Since it appears, imo, that the 5th floor window IS open in the Bronson film, then it is reasonable probability that Norman has raised it just before Bronson film begins not earler thatn 12:25, so likely Norman did get there by AT LEAST 12:24.


That means Norman/Jarman had to have left from front of TSBD not later than 12:22pm, treked 250 ft at 5 ft pers second, around the perimeter of the TSBD so entered the rear door approx 45 sec then 35 sec to take elevator to 5th floor at 1 floor per 7 sec speed, then walked acoss about another 160 tt in 40 sec, so its reasonable probable time required of 2 minutes to be at their windows and have raised the windows.

For Jarmans statement that BRW joined them "a few minutes later" ie: at least 2 minutes later, means that if Norman and Jarman left at 12:22, and dont get to their windows untill 12:24, then BRW did not join them until 12:26


This is improbable, since the 6th floor SE shooter has to have been IN the snipers nest approx by 12:23 to have some time to choose on the spot, which boxes he wants to move, and or stack, and gets this done by 12:24 and also hides himself from view of the Bronson film perspective.



What reason would Jarman and Norman have had to leave EARLIER than the 12:22 radio news the JFK limo was about to approach?

For Jarmans statement that BRW joined them "a few minutes later" ie: at least 2 minutes later, means that if Norman and Jarman left at 12:22, and dont get to their windows untill 12:24, then BRW did not join them until 12:26

"A few minutes" has no meaning in this context....  Jarmen wasn't paying attention to when BRW joined them ( Jarman & Norman) on the fifth floor....And J & N are on record as saying they went to the fifth floor at about 12:25 and arrived there at about 12:28...

The frame from the Bronson film that shows the SE corner of the TSBD was taken at about 12:25.....Neither Jarman nor Norman were on the fifth floor at 12:25 ..and BRW claimed that he was on the sixth floor at that time.   And that may ? be what the Bronson films shows..... ie; there is nobody visible behind the fifth floor windows but there appears to be a person in LIGHT COLORED clothing behind the sixth floor window.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 15, 2019, 08:30:26 PM
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That is so "convincing"!

"I am not sure. . . I don't know which of those two. . . No; I won't say for sure. . .Am I right or wrong?"

Maybe he was right the first time.  He saw a couple of black guys in the window, saw two black guys come out and assumed they were the same guys (and yet somehow missed Oswald allegedly walking right out the front door).  Then he sat with them on the plane to Washington and his memory "improved".

How many black guys walked out of the TSBD after the assassination?

Respond to the entire post and not just cherry pick the part where you can create a false narrative. BTW, was Brennan supposed to know how many black guys worked in the TSBD?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 15, 2019, 09:27:12 PM
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(http://grandsubversion.com/jfkAssassination/nobotimg/dlspt1/school_book_depository_03.jpg)


Bronson film frame at approx. 5 to 6 minutes before JFK motorcade arrives.


approx. 12:24 earliest to 12:25 latest


So can anyone see Norman in the 5th floor window? Because both Jarman and Norman would have to be at their windows FOR CERTAIN if they left even as late as 12:22pm. Is there anyway to enhance the Bronson film enought to determine if Norman is at his window at 12:24?


The box is in the window on the 6th floor SE window at this time of 12:24 to 12:25
The Hughes film is much clearer (or less blurry). It clearly (for me) shows a black man (seems like Norman to me) sticking head out the window on the fifth floor right below the sniper's nest and waving to the limo/JFK/motorcade about seven seconds before the first shot (depending on when that was).

Go here below, scroll to the 1:30 mark. You can also see, faintly, Williams (or it Jarman?) in the window next to him.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 15, 2019, 09:29:34 PM
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Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
Zeon: You need to edit out all of that white/blank spaces between paragraphs, please. Duncan wants us to save bandwidth by not having so much "open" area.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 15, 2019, 09:50:23 PM
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The Hughes film is much clearer (or less blurry). It clearly (for me) shows a black man (seems like Norman to me) sticking head out the window on the fifth floor right below the sniper's nest and waving to the limo/JFK/motorcade about seven seconds before the first shot (depending on when that was).

Go here below, scroll to the 1:30 mark. You can also see, faintly, Williams (or it Jarman?) in the window next to him.


There is a significant time interval between the Bronson film (!2:25) and the  Hughes film (12:29) .....and yet the image behind the sixth floor window appear to be the same...Nothing there but light colored cardboard boxes.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 15, 2019, 09:57:16 PM
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There is a significant time interval between the Bronson film (!2:25) and the  Hughes film (12:29) .....and yet the image behind the sixth floor window appear to be the same...Nothing there but light colored cardboard boxes.....
If you watch the rest of the clip you'll see that an enhancement of the window shows, according to the analysis provided, movement by a person.

I see something move too but I can't tell what it is.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 15, 2019, 10:06:51 PM
The narration in that film is bogus. Oswald's prints may have been on 'some of the boxes' ...So What? He worked there.
The inference is that it was evidence of a nefarious nature. Prints were not reported to have been attained from similar gripping points on each of the boxes at the so called snipers nest. Why not? [maybe they wore gloves]
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 16, 2019, 12:19:13 AM
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If you watch the rest of the clip you'll see that an enhancement of the window shows, according to the analysis provided, movement by a person.

I see something move too but I can't tell what it is.

I watched the whole video several times....  There MAY? be movement to the rear of the boxes on the sixth floor .....at the end of the video. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 16, 2019, 01:32:26 AM
What I was trying to establish, was if the windows were up or low, because Jarman said they "raised" the windows when they got there, so I was trying to see in the Bronson film clip it that can be determined or not, if the window is raised yet or not. If not, and the time of Bronson is 12:25, then that's some kind of indication they haven't arrived yet.

And the box is in the window in the Bronson film not later than 12:25, so probably by the shooter right?, only AFTER BRW left, and so it almost necessitates that the shooter would have to be hiding near on the 6th floor and probably have a LOS to BRW at the SN by about 12;24, cause he had not yet chosen which boxes to use, and he has to move the big box and stack the 2 smaller boxes and then move himself so as not be in the Bronson film
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 16, 2019, 01:59:52 AM
The motorcade went by the TSBD at exactly 12:30. How could anyone possibly know this was going to eventuate?
The psychic propensity of one guy to foresee and gain position as a sole sniper is odds defying.
Now someone with a police scanner/or walkie talkie would have been quite the advantageous asset.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 16, 2019, 07:32:58 AM
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The motorcade went by the TSBD at exactly 12:30. How could anyone possibly know this was going to eventuate?
The psychic propensity of one guy to foresee and gain position as a sole sniper is odds defying.
Now someone with a police scanner/or walkie talkie would have been quite the advantageous asset.
That is exactly what I think
Look at the video two pages back(39) around the 6 minutes mark of the film, and unlike the Hughes film it shows the west side of the TSBD and it is filmed right after the shooting.
You will see a window open on each of the 5th,6th, and 7th floors. At some point, there is a person in each window and two of the three people are dropping unknown items out to a lower roof below I believe.
Different from the other films you can actually see people, oddly enough the 7th-floor window is where you clearly see a person with his head poking out a good bit.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 16, 2019, 03:53:25 PM
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That is exactly what I think
Look at the video two pages back(39) around the 6 minutes mark of the film, and unlike the Hughes film it shows the west side of the TSBD and it is filmed right after the shooting.
You will see a window open on each of the 5th,6th, and 7th floors. At some point, there is a person in each window and two of the three people are dropping unknown items out to a lower roof below I believe.
Different from the other films you can actually see people, oddly enough the 7th-floor window is where you clearly see a person with his head poking out a good bit.

there is a person in each window and two of the three people are dropping unknown items out to a lower roof below I believe.

I seriously doubt that.....The man narrating the film thinks that the three stooges J,N, & W...were throwing walkie talkies and rifles out of the windows....Do you believe that?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 16, 2019, 10:50:32 PM
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The Hughes film is much clearer (or less blurry). It clearly (for me) shows a black man (seems like Norman to me) sticking head out the window on the fifth floor right below the sniper's nest and waving to the limo/JFK/motorcade about seven seconds before the first shot (depending on when that was).

Go here below, scroll to the 1:30 mark. You can also see, faintly, Williams (or it Jarman?) in the window next to him.


At the end of the video Harold Norman recites the sounds he said that he heard .....


Ol Mr  Boom... Click... clack.....Boom..... is reciting and duplicating the sounds he said he heard .....except OOOOOPS.... He forgor that he said he heard the sounds of the shells falling on the floor above his head....  If  Ol Boom... Click were recalling memory he would have said....

" I heard... Boom....Click...plink....Clack......... Boom ...Click ...plink...Clack.........Boom ...Click ...plinck ...clack "........
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 17, 2019, 08:44:09 AM
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there is a person in each window and two of the three people are dropping unknown items out to a lower roof below I believe.

I seriously doubt that.....The man narrating the film thinks that the three stooges J,N, & W...were throwing walkie talkies and rifles out of the windows....Do you believe that?
Of course not, the narrator repeatedly says "perhaps"  but do you ever notice how photographs and film where you're viewing the south side TSBD right before the assassination there is not anyone in any window. Bronson, Hughes or any other example show nothing, yet in the film of the west side, you can at least see an actual person in each window. I have no answer to what the items were. As I said the narrator has a "funny perspective".  As far as activity on the west side of the TSBD it sure is more peculiar than the south side especially knowing the testimony given by 3 shady storytellers.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 17, 2019, 10:10:37 AM
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Of course not, the narrator repeatedly says "perhaps"  but do you ever notice how photographs and film where you're viewing the south side TSBD right before the assassination there is not anyone in any window. Bronson, Hughes or any other example show nothing, yet in the film of the west side, you can at least see an actual person in each window. I have no answer to what the items were. As I said the narrator has a "funny perspective".  As far as activity on the west side of the TSBD it sure is more peculiar than the south side especially knowing the testimony given by 3 shady storytellers.

The narrator is a bit daft....BUT.... He does present some puzzling photos.....  For example....Who took the film of Weatherford climbing in the second floor window ?....
It would have been taken for an altitude above the third floor .......  Could it have been taken from the railroad tower?       
And when was it taken?   I doubt that it was taken just minutes after the shooting.....

And I think the guy has scrambled photos from days other than the afternoon of 11/22 into the mix because there are TSBD windows that open and close several times....And I don't believe that happened.    I would like to know more about the cop climbing in the window..... and I seriously doubt the narrators story.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 17, 2019, 05:37:08 PM
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The narrator is a bit daft....BUT.... He does present some puzzling photos.....  For example....Who took the film of Weatherford climbing in the second floor window ?....
It would have been taken for an altitude above the third floor .......  Could it have been taken from the railroad tower?       
And when was it taken?   I doubt that it was taken just minutes after the shooting.....

And I think the guy has scrambled photos from days other than the afternoon of 11/22 into the mix because there are TSBD windows that open and close several times....And I don't believe that happened.    I would like to know more about the cop climbing in the window..... and I seriously doubt the narrators story.
I'm suspicious, but I'm also interested in what the narrator says because I have only recently viewed his take on this Weatherford clown. Deputy Sheriff Weatherford affidavit mentions joining 4 other deputies when entering the TSBD, but I have yet to find where any of the four acknowledge his presence

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

REF: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
FROM: HARRY WEATHERFORD, Deputy Sheriff

Date: November 23, 1963

On Friday, November 22, 1963, at about 12:30 PM, I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office watching the Presidential Motorcade. The President's car had passed my location a couple of minutes when I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard. Thinking, this was a heck of a time for one to go off, then I heard a 2nd report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself, that this was a rifle and I started toward the corner when I heard the 3rd report. By this time I was running towards the railroad yards where the sound seemed to come from. I got with Deputy Allan Sweatt and was searching the tracks and cars, etc, then someone said the shots came from above. I then went to the Elm Street loading gates of the Texas School Book Depository where I met Deputies Ralph Walters, Luke Mooney, Eugene Boone and Sam Webster. We all went into the building and proceeded to the first floor by way of the stairs. I jumped out of the first window onto the roof of the adjoining covered loading dock. I then searched the roof for any expended shell cases, as at the time we were trying to find just where the shots came from and if they were fired from the west side of the building they possibly could have fallen onto this roof. Finding no shells, I then climbed into the window and started searching the first floor, with an unknown DPD detective. Then learning other officers were searching this first floor, I went to the top floor to start down with each floor. Looking over the 7th floor to no avail, I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, and a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barracade, advising Mooney to preserve the scene for the Crime Lab. I then proceeded to look for the rifle as it was possible it was still on this floor. After several minutes passed, I was about 10 feet from Deputy Boone when he found the rifle with a light he was using. This was also preserved for the Crime Lab.

 See, that is the thing about this narrator in every one of his videos he himself is suspicious of every character that comes into view but he also corrects himself. He goes completely insane in his videos on H B McLain
His take on the Dillard photos is crazy funny

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 17, 2019, 07:24:34 PM
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I'm suspicious, but I'm also interested in what the narrator says because I have only recently viewed his take on this Weatherford clown. Deputy Sheriff Weatherford affidavit mentions joining 4 other deputies when entering the TSBD, but I have yet to find where any of the four acknowledge his presence

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

REF: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
FROM: HARRY WEATHERFORD, Deputy Sheriff

Date: November 23, 1963

On Friday, November 22, 1963, at about 12:30 PM, I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office watching the Presidential Motorcade. The President's car had passed my location a couple of minutes when I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard. Thinking, this was a heck of a time for one to go off, then I heard a 2nd report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself, that this was a rifle and I started toward the corner when I heard the 3rd report. By this time I was running towards the railroad yards where the sound seemed to come from. I got with Deputy Allan Sweatt and was searching the tracks and cars, etc, then someone said the shots came from above. I then went to the Elm Street loading gates of the Texas School Book Depository where I met Deputies Ralph Walters, Luke Mooney, Eugene Boone and Sam Webster. We all went into the building and proceeded to the first floor by way of the stairs. I jumped out of the first window onto the roof of the adjoining covered loading dock. I then searched the roof for any expended shell cases, as at the time we were trying to find just where the shots came from and if they were fired from the west side of the building they possibly could have fallen onto this roof. Finding no shells, I then climbed into the window and started searching the first floor, with an unknown DPD detective. Then learning other officers were searching this first floor, I went to the top floor to start down with each floor. Looking over the 7th floor to no avail, I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, and a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barracade, advising Mooney to preserve the scene for the Crime Lab. I then proceeded to look for the rifle as it was possible it was still on this floor. After several minutes passed, I was about 10 feet from Deputy Boone when he found the rifle with a light he was using. This was also preserved for the Crime Lab.

 See, that is the thing about this narrator in every one of his videos he himself is suspicious of every character that comes into view but he also corrects himself. He goes completely insane in his videos on H B McLain
His take on the Dillard photos is crazy funny


The narrator is a loon....But he does present some interesting observations about the photos.....It's a bit difficult to point out his ideas about the photos without confusing the entire issue....However He makes the point that Dillard took a wide angle photo and a photo with telephoto lens with in seconds of one another.

There fore the two photos should show basically thge same scene in the fifth floor windows.....ie; all three stooges should be there in behind their windows....But they are not....Jarman and Williams appear to be behind the windows although hey are in slightly different  positions....But Harold Norman doesn't seem to be there.....And Mr Loon says he thinks the image of Norman has been added to one of the Dillard photos....  and he could be right....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 17, 2019, 10:30:05 PM
That is nothing compared to him pointing out some very strange activities relating to Sgt Gerald Hill who was like Santa Klaus on a Xmas Eve every place at all times. Hill is the moron who acts like he discovered the sniper's nest, but this was a short time after Deputy Mooney had already found it. Hill also is pictured in the #207 car at the TSBD  which may have been the one creeping by Oswald's rooming house, in Earlene Roberts testimony.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 18, 2019, 12:52:58 AM
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That is nothing compared to him pointing out some very strange activities relating to Sgt Gerald Hill who was like Santa Klaus on a Xmas Eve every place at all times. Hill is the moron who acts like he discovered the sniper's nest, but this was a short time after Deputy Mooney had already found it. Hill also is pictured in the #207 car at the TSBD  which may have been the one creeping by Oswald's rooming house, in Earlene Roberts testimony.
If you want to find just one of the conspirators.....Look no further than Gerald Hill......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 18, 2019, 04:17:45 PM
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That is nothing compared to him pointing out some very strange activities relating to Sgt Gerald Hill who was like Santa Klaus on a Xmas Eve every place at all times. Hill is the moron who acts like he discovered the sniper's nest, but this was a short time after Deputy Mooney had already found it. Hill also is pictured in the #207 car at the TSBD  which may have been the one creeping by Oswald's rooming house, in Earlene Roberts testimony.

Peter, you started this juggling act....  with the loon's presentation of "Weatherford" climbing into that second floor window on the west side of the TSBD....Let's focus on that for just a bit..... ( and forget about the silly idea that objects were being dropped from the fifth floor)

In the short film of "Weatherford" climbing into the window .....It looks like there is a man wearing a dark jacket white shirt and tie behind the window just to the right of Weatherford....

First step.... Is the man climbing into the window Weatherford?    Can we determine a time by looking at the shadows being cast?

Weatherford's tale about climbing out onto the roof to look for spent shells is a lie....  I don't believe he went looking for shells. ....UNLESS... he knew that there was at least one spent shell out there that needed to be retrieved and destroyed.....

At the 5:55 point of the film the Loon points out that there is someone behind the fifth floor window @ 12:40 pm......And the Loon thinks it's Jarman & co.  And that's an incredible idea because Jarman & co were down on Elm Street in front of the TSBD at 12:40.   However The Loon is right.... There is someone behind that fifth floor window....and that "someone" is probably officers who are searching the building.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 18, 2019, 09:30:38 PM
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I know, but given that Oscar just parrots the WC narrative, I doubt he believes that either.

Seeing that Mrs. Reid saw Oswald walking the opposite direction of the NW stairs I think it's fair to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD via the front entrance.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 18, 2019, 09:53:24 PM
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Seeing that Mrs. Reid saw Oswald walking the opposite direction of the NW stairs I think it's fair to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD via the front entrance.

Can you prove that Mrs Reid saw Lee Oswald after the shots were heard?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 19, 2019, 02:55:38 PM
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Can you prove that Mrs Reid saw Lee Oswald after the shots were heard?


You mean besides her testifying that she spoke with O. V. Campbell about the location of the shots she saw Oswald walking east, with a full coke bottle in hand (corroborated by LHO himself), in the second floor office about 2 minutes AFTER she heard the shots? BTW, it's heard and seen.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 19, 2019, 03:38:09 PM
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If he can, I sure would like to see his time line for how Oswald gets out the front door by not later than 3 minutes posts shots, as per Office Barnett having secured the front doors:

Mr. LIEBELER - How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. BARNETT - It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER - From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; until they were authorized.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think it was as quickly as 2 1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?
Mr. BARNETT - I believe it was 2 1/2 minute probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 seconds more before I got to the front there.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Three minutes at the most.

Oswald entering the 2nd floor office REAR door when Mrs Reid and Mr Belins stopwatch renactiment of 2 min post shots, would required Oswald to walk across about 60 ft length of office, then a 30 ft length going past the front counter area, and if at a "slow" place as indicated by Mrs Reids observation of Oswald walking slowly, then 3ft per sec has Oswald not even leaving the front door of the office until 2 min 25 sec at best, AND ONLY IN HIS T SHIRT!!

So how could Oswald have gone BACK to the 2nd floor lunchroom, which is treking another 100 ft to return by outer hallway, get his brown shirt then at least ANOTHER 120 ft and one or the other staircases of 18 steps and get out the front door by 2 min 55 sec?

IMPOSSIBLE!!

But there IS a West side entrance to the TSBD thru which William Shelly and Billy Lovelady used to return to TSBD, which apparently was NOT guarded, and thru which Oswald could possibly have gone out that way after 3 min post shots, although its surprising no one saw Oswald do that either.

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. ??..

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? .........

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, it was possible that people could have left the building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and officer Smith stationed yourself there?
Mr. BARNETT - When I went to the door to get the name of the building, there were people going in and out then.

Mr. LIEBELER - There were?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think it was as quickly as 2 1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?
Mr. BARNETT - I believe it was 2 1/2 minute probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 seconds more before I got to the front there.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?
Mr. BARNETT - Three minutes at the most. .......

Mr. STERN - You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.
Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.
And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"
He said, "No, sir."
"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"
"No, sir."
Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.
I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.
I identified myself to Mr. Truly.
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.........


As can be seen there's some conflicting testimony as would be expected. IMO, the key part of the testimony is that of Barnett himself (which I have in bold type). It's pretty obvious that Oswald did leave the building without being noticed, most likely by the front entrance.




Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2019, 03:46:19 PM
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You mean besides her testifying that she spoke with O. V. Campbell about the location of the shots she saw Oswald walking east, with a full coke bottle in hand (corroborated by LHO himself), in the second floor office about 2 minutes AFTER she heard the shots? BTW, it's heard and seen.

That's NOT proof....  She may have mis-remembered...... recalling someother time that she'd see Lee...Or she might have simply made it up....

After the fact she could have said.... "Why my goodness, I didn't know that he'd just shot the President ...He walked right past me "   These kind of tales are very common after some tragic event.   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 19, 2019, 04:10:06 PM
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That's NOT proof....  She may have mis-remembered...... recalling someother time that she'd see Lee...Or she might have simply made it up....

After the fact she could have said.... "Why my goodness, I didn't know that he'd just shot the President ...He walked right past me "   These kind of tales are very common after some tragic event.   

There's nothing in her testimony that would raise doubts about her truthfulness.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2019, 06:49:21 PM
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There's nothing in her testimony that would raise doubts about her truthfulness.

Of course not...imbecile!   Because they NEEDED her testimony.... And they were a hell of a lot smarter than you....Belin knew that Mrs Reid's word wasn't worth much , and he also knew there would be no defense attorney to challenge anything they proposed.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 19, 2019, 10:26:38 PM
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Seeing that Mrs. Reid saw Oswald walking the opposite direction of the NW stairs I think it's fair to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD via the front entrance.

That doesn't follow at all.  Once on the first floor, both front and back entrances are easily accessible.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 19, 2019, 11:41:53 PM
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Peter, you started this juggling act....  with the loon's presentation of "Weatherford" climbing into that second floor window on the west side of the TSBD....Let's focus on that for just a bit..... ( and forget about the silly idea that objects were being dropped from the fifth floor)

In the short film of "Weatherford" climbing into the window .....It looks like there is a man wearing a dark jacket white shirt and tie behind the window just to the right of Weatherford....

First step.... Is the man climbing into the window Weatherford?    Can we determine a time by looking at the shadows being cast?

Weatherford's tale about climbing out onto the roof to look for spent shells is a lie....  I don't believe he went looking for shells. ....UNLESS... he knew that there was at least one spent shell out there that needed to be retrieved and destroyed.....

At the 5:55 point of the film the Loon points out that there is someone behind the fifth floor window @ 12:40 pm......And the Loon thinks it's Jarman & co.  And that's an incredible idea because Jarman & co were down on Elm Street in front of the TSBD at 12:40.   However The Loon is right.... There is someone behind that fifth floor window....and that "someone" is probably officers who are searching the building.....

Have you studied the photos, Peter?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on February 20, 2019, 02:19:46 AM
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Have you studied the photos, Peter?
It is Weatherford. When looking at just that film clip of Old Harry Weatherford climbing in the window. He could have been on the roof the whole time because he definitely did not come with the 4 other officers as he states, but looney tunes found an exhibit where another officer says he met up with Weatherford at 12:50 at the back door. Watch this other part I found. More entertaining than deciding if there's a "prayer woman" in a photo when there is not

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 20, 2019, 12:28:42 PM
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That doesn't follow at all.  Once on the first floor, both front and back entrances are easily accessible.

With the front entrance being a few feet away while the back entrance is about 90-100 feet away the front entrance is the easiest available exit.  If you're trying to get the hell out of Dodge I would assume you would choose the quickest way out so the front door makes the most sense. Besides that Oswald could see there were people coming in and out of the building and there's evidence that Robert McNeil actually ran into him and asked where there was a phone.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 20, 2019, 02:48:44 PM
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It is Weatherford. When looking at just that film clip of Old Harry Weatherford climbing in the window. He could have been on the roof the whole time because he definitely did not come with the 4 other officers as he states, but looney tunes found an exhibit where another officer says he met up with Weatherford at 12:50 at the back door. Watch this other part I found. More entertaining than deciding if there's a "prayer woman" in a photo when there is not


I was Under the impression that Harry Weatherford was a plainclothes officer....I don't believe he wore a uniform like the man climbing into the window....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 20, 2019, 05:09:19 PM
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With the front entrance being a few feet away while the back entrance is about 90-100 feet away the front entrance is the easiest available exit.

It's also where the most people are.

Quote
  If you're trying to get the hell out of Dodge I would assume you would choose the quickest way out so the front door makes the most sense. Besides that Oswald could see there were people coming in and out of the building and there's evidence that Robert McNeil actually ran into him and asked where there was a phone.

It was probably Pierce Allman.  MacNeil didn't have a crewcut.  But the phone in question was closer to the rear door.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 24, 2019, 04:45:49 AM
If Barnett is certain that he is guarding the front entrance door by 3 min post shots, and Mrs Reid is certain that Oswald entered the rear door of the 2nd floor office at 2 min post shots walked "slowly", and that Oswald was only wearing a T shirt

then Oswald would not exit by front door of the 2nd floor office until 2 min 30 sec, having to travel about 90 ft at 3 ft/sec pace (slow)

Oswald would then have to travel 100 ft in the outer hallway to RETURN to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get his brown shirt which he defacto must have taken off after being seen by  Baker and Truly, with at least a long sleeve shirt on, any possibly a jacket also.

Then Oswald must go back down the hallway again, yet another 115 ft  to reach the front stairs, or else use the rear staircase, then trek acroos 140 ft of 1st floor to reach front door. There is also about 20 ft to travel from the bottom stair of the front staircase thru the lobby, to reach the front doors.

Total distance = 235 ft. plus an 18 step staircase with a 4ft mid landing
Subtracting 10 sec for going down front staircase  leaves Oswald about 25 sec at best to travel 235 ft,
235ft/25sec= 9.4 ft/sec sustained average speed.
This is without  adding the extra seconds to have slowed to a stop, to get his brown shirt and jacket, nor adds slowing down caused by 2 doors entering from hallway to lunchroom ,nor the repetition going thru those 2 doors and then a 3rd door just before getting to the staircase.
If you add those delays in, its closer to 10 ft/sec, which is flat out maximum sprinting the ENTIRE distance.
Using the rear stair is even more distance, approx 140 ft at least, so  total  distance would be 255 ft.


This is, imo, highly improbable and it also is in stark contrast to Oswalds previous slow movement and apparent lack of urgency when seen by Mrs Reid. Plus, its not even necessary to have used the front door, if there is a West side entrance which may not have been yet secured by 3 min post shots and is close enough to the back stair, to use, if Oswald had seen that the rear dock door of the annex roofed part of the dock was the route he might have tried first.


No one saw Oswald doing this 235 ft Olympic speed sprinting, nor saw him exit the front door, the rear door, OR the West door, so the answer must be some LAX actual securing of the doors , despite Barnetts statement or else, Oswald met Mrs Reid BEFORE he met Baker and Truly, but that is a question of the Couch Film time vs the Wiegman film and ive already mentioned the anamoly there between  Weigmans film STOPPED at 13-15 secs post shots, but this being captured in the Couch film at the 8 sec mark in Couch film thus not possible if Couch film did not begin until 24 sec post shots.


Perhaps there is an explanation by Weigman that  he remained standing frozen after stopping his 1st sequence of fliming, camera off, not doing anything for another 17 secs after filming the 2 people (the Hesters) and then he decides to turn around and notices the Newmans laying on the ground. This event captured by Couch at 32 sec post shots, 8 seconds into Couch film which began at 24 sec post shots


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 03:23:39 PM
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If Barnett is certain that he is guarding the front entrance door by 3 min post shots, and Mrs Reid is certain that Oswald entered the rear door of the 2nd floor office at 2 min post shots walked "slowly", and that Oswald was only wearing a T shirt

then Oswald would not exit by front door of the 2nd floor office until 2 min 30 sec, having to travel about 90 ft at 3 ft/sec pace (slow)

Oswald would then have to travel 100 ft in the outer hallway to RETURN to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get his brown shirt which he defacto must have taken off after being seen by  Baker and Truly, with at least a long sleeve shirt on, any possibly a jacket also.

Then Oswald must go back down the hallway again, yet another 115 ft  to reach the front stairs, or else use the rear staircase, then trek acroos 140 ft of 1st floor to reach front door. There is also about 20 ft to travel from the bottom stair of the front staircase thru the lobby, to reach the front doors.

Total distance = 235 ft. plus an 18 step staircase with a 4ft mid landing
Subtracting 10 sec for going down front staircase  leaves Oswald about 25 sec at best to travel 235 ft,
235ft/25sec= 9.4 ft/sec sustained average speed.
This is without  adding the extra seconds to have slowed to a stop, to get his brown shirt and jacket, nor adds slowing down caused by 2 doors entering from hallway to lunchroom ,nor the repetition going thru those 2 doors and then a 3rd door just before getting to the staircase.
If you add those delays in, its closer to 10 ft/sec, which is flat out maximum sprinting the ENTIRE distance.
Using the rear stair is even more distance, approx 140 ft at least, so  total  distance would be 255 ft.


This is, imo, highly improbable and it also is in stark contrast to Oswalds previous slow movement and apparent lack of urgency when seen by Mrs Reid. Plus, its not even necessary to have used the front door, if there is a West side entrance which may not have been yet secured by 3 min post shots and is close enough to the back stair, to use, if Oswald had seen that the rear dock door of the annex roofed part of the dock was the route he might have tried first.


No one saw Oswald doing this 235 ft Olympic speed sprinting, nor saw him exit the front door, the rear door, OR the West door, so the answer must be some LAX actual securing of the doors , despite Barnetts statement or else, Oswald met Mrs Reid BEFORE he met Baker and Truly, but that is a question of the Couch Film time vs the Wiegman film and ive already mentioned the anamoly there between  Weigmans film STOPPED at 13-15 secs post shots, but this being captured in the Couch film at the 8 sec mark in Couch film thus not possible if Couch film did not begin until 24 sec post shots.


Perhaps there is an explanation by Weigman that  he remained standing frozen after stopping his 1st sequence of fliming, camera off, not doing anything for another 17 secs after filming the 2 people (the Hesters) and then he decides to turn around and notices the Newmans laying on the ground. This event captured by Couch at 32 sec post shots, 8 seconds into Couch film which began at 24 sec post shots

"Mrs Reid is certain that Oswald entered the rear door of the 2nd floor office at 2 min post shots walked "slowly", and that Oswald was only wearing a T shirt"

I'll have to agree....This would definitely be a very memorable event......
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 26, 2019, 12:35:52 AM
Bonnie Ray Williams had to have left the SE 6th story window by 12:22:30 so as to have reached the elevator and be off the 6th floor by 12:23, so as to allow Oswald, the presumed shooter at least 30 sec to walk onto the 6th floor from probably hiding on the 6th floor staircase midway up, and then 30 sec to select which boxes to stack and place one box on the window ledge by 12:24 so the box is seen in the Bronson film at 12:24


But if Jarman is correct that he and Norman were at their windows when they were joined by BRW only a "few minutes later", that would mean Jarman/Norman had to have left from out front of TSBD on street level by 12:18 so as to be at their windows by 12:20. thus "several minutes" earlier than BRW joining them at 12:23

However, what reason would Jarman and Norman have for leaving as early as 12:18 if the radio transmission imforming of JFK limo approaching was not until 12:22pm?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 26, 2019, 05:19:53 AM
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Bonnie Ray Williams had to have left the SE 6th story window by 12:22:30 so as to have reached the elevator and be off the 6th floor by 12:23, so as to allow Oswald, the presumed shooter at least 30 sec to walk onto the 6th floor from probably hiding on the 6th floor staircase midway up, and then 30 sec to select which boxes to stack and place one box on the window ledge by 12:24 so the box is seen in the Bronson film at 12:24


But if Jarman is correct that he and Norman were at their windows when they were joined by BRW only a "few minutes later", that would mean Jarman/Norman had to have left from out front of TSBD on street level by 12:18 so as to be at their windows by 12:20. thus "several minutes" earlier than BRW joining them at 12:23

However, what reason would Jarman and Norman have for leaving as early as 12:18 if the radio transmission imforming of JFK limo approaching was not until 12:22pm?

Zeon,
in his WC testimony Norman tells of getting "news" that the motorcade had reached Main. There is clearly a transmission from the lead car about 12.22 that they were approaching Main. Remember the Pres motorcade was back a bit from them. Norman merely says they heard this and does not specify how. Perhaps it was second hand, remember that Rowland talks of hearing a police transmission also during his testimony. The Rowlands were just half a block from the TSBD. Norman and Jarman initially walked south westerly, with Givens (towards the Rowlands), from the front of the TSBD some distance before turning back (Truly testimony). Perhaps they overheard the news from someone as they were walking with Givens and then decided to they had time to return to watch from the 5th floor. In any event they did not start on their journey to the 5th floor before 12.22pm, it may have been a minute or so later. BRW was likely still on the 6th floor just 5 minutes before the shots.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 26, 2019, 11:01:18 AM
According to Williams first day statement, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, just after he arrived on the 5th floor they saw the President's car come around the corner of Houston and Main. "Just after" sounds pretty consistent with the timing of Jarman and Norman arriving about 12.24 to me. Then again I have no need to move these events to an earlier time. Neither did Williams on the day of the assassination.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 26, 2019, 12:51:20 PM
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According to Williams first day statement, taken a couple of hours after the shooting, just after he arrived on the 5th floor they saw the President's car come around the corner of Houston and Main. "Just after" sounds pretty consistent with the timing of Jarman and Norman arriving about 12.24 to me. Then again I have no need to move these events to an earlier time. Neither did Williams on the day of the assassination.

Colin....I'm no at all convinced that BRW was on the sixth floor after 12:20.....   I believe he could have left the sixth floor at about 12:20 and was on the fifth floor when Jarman and Norman started up to the fifth on the elevator.    Since he had encountered "someone" on the sixth floor who told him to leave he didn't want to meet another "someone" who was coming up on the elevator ....so he hid until he could see who had came up on the elevator.  When he learned that it was Norman and Jarman he joined them at the window.....

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Colin Crow on February 26, 2019, 01:20:19 PM
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Colin....I'm no at all convinced that BRW was on the sixth floor after 12:20.....   I believe he could have left the sixth floor at about 12:20 and was on the fifth floor when Jarman and Norman started up to the fifth on the elevator.    Since he had encountered "someone" on the sixth floor who told him to leave he didn't want to meet another "someone" who was coming up on the elevator ....so he hid until he could see who had came up on the elevator.  When he learned that it was Norman and Jarman he joined them at the window.....

Walt, you may be right. What we do know is that Williams was on the 6th floor after 12.15. He left his unfinished lunch in the SN. He was with the others in the Dillard photo. Brennan began observing the TSBD after 12.25. Brennan only "identified" two men on the fifth floor....most obvious is that these were Jarman and Norman and that Williams had not yet joined them at the windows. Rowland observed the TSBD between 12.15 and about 12.25. He saw the gunman at 12.15 in the SW window. He saw a black man (obviously Williams) in the SN also over that period.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 26, 2019, 03:48:01 PM
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Walt, you may be right. What we do know is that Williams was on the 6th floor after 12.15. He left his unfinished lunch in the SN. He was with the others in the Dillard photo. Brennan began observing the TSBD after 12.25. Brennan only "identified" two men on the fifth floor....most obvious is that these were Jarman and Norman and that Williams had not yet joined them at the windows. Rowland observed the TSBD between 12.15 and about 12.25. He saw the gunman at 12.15 in the SW window. He saw a black man (obviously Williams) in the SN also over that period.

I'm try to recall if there are any photos that show the SE corner windows that were taken at about 12: 26 .....  I believe that James Powell snapped a photo at about that time...And the Bronson and Hughes films show the windows at about that time.... Do you know of any other photos?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2019, 04:23:52 PM
I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 26, 2019, 05:48:32 PM
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I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

He must have been on an adrenalin 'high' after having just achieved his life's ambition of being a somebody; add in that he likely didn't expect to emerge alive---yet was handed a free pass--- he must have felt (for those first few moments post shots) that he could achieve anything, as opposed to a lifetime of failure. That alone might have carried him out the front door.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 26, 2019, 06:47:49 PM
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I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.  I'm always amazed at the willingness of witnesses to re-enter a building from which they just thought shots had been fired at the president.  You think they might have some greater concern for their own safety.  At the end of the day, I take her story with a grain of salt.  Maybe she saw him, maybe not.  It would have been fairly ballsy for Oswald to head out the front door.  That seems unlikely to me unless he felt it was his only option.  I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things though.  We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.

Nice raw and completely unfounded speculation  Thumb1:   

From "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences. Simply amazing....


We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Really? And how exactly do we know that?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2019, 08:31:40 PM
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She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.

Nice raw and completely unfounded speculation  Thumb1:   

From "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences. Simply amazing....


We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Really? And how exactly do we know that?

In her affidavit, Pauline Sanders confirms that Reid mentioned Oswald's lunchroom encounter with Truly which she attributed to them "evidently lunching."  In Reid's understanding of events as recounted to Sanders, Truly and Oswald were having lunch when a policeman put a gun in Oswald's stomach and Truly vouches for him as an employee.  Obviously, a scrambled rendition of facts.  Reid was not present during the lunchroom encounter.  So how would she know about this lunchroom encounter unless she was told or overheard it from others in the aftermath of the assassination?  Don't you think the TSBD employees discussed among themselves what they had seen that day?  As a result, she knows from others that Oswald was in the lunchroom in the vicinity of her workstation after the assassination.  She may or may not have seen someone in a white t-shirt and claims it was Oswald - a person who she barely knew.   There is doubt as to whether this encounter took place and, if so, whether it was Oswald or not.  In the aftermath of historical events, some people intentionally or unintentionally falsely want to put themselves into the events.  It seems unlikely that Oswald was wearing only a white t-shirt since that is not how he was described in the lunchroom encounter moments earlier.  But believe anything you want.  It doesn't matter much whether she saw him or not.


Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot. According to SANDERS, Mrs. REID claimed that OSWALD just mumbled something and left the office. She said Reid did not mention how OSWALD left the office or for that matter if she knew how he might have left the building. SANDERS advised that the stairwell would probably have been the easiest way to leave without being too noticeable since the stairwell is in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the stairwell.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 26, 2019, 09:55:43 PM
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I was Under the impression that Harry Weatherford was a plainclothes officer....I don't believe he wore a uniform like the man climbing into the window....
The 'climber' looks like a uniformed patrol officer to me. It looks like he has a cops utility belt on. In that video clip it looks like a patrolman's white hat laying to the right of him on the deck. That does not look like a rifle to me propped up against the wall to the right of the 'hat'. It is too short and thin [comparing it to the hat] It also looks bent.
If it wasn't posted..this is the Weatherford document--    https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=520
Weatherford claimed that he went  '' upstairs to the first floor''  ? "And jumped out the first window"...."Climbed back in and searched the first floor". Perhaps he thought the ground floor was the ground floor? There is no basement. Or the second floor was the first floor or something like that. [GOOFY]  "Other officers were already searching the first floor...so then went up to the top floor" but doesn't say how he went up to the top floor. The cops just couldn't seem to get their story straight   ::)
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 26, 2019, 10:35:59 PM
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We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.
Really? And how exactly do we know that?
His crystal ball.
 

 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2019, 10:43:08 PM
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I've always had doubts about Reid's account and the notion that Oswald would go out the front door.  She didn't know him at the time.  She described him as being dressed only in a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely.  She may have talked to others before giving her account of events as I seem to recall someone referencing her saying that Oswald had lunch with Truly.  So she had clearly talked with others in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and got certain details about the lunchroom scrambled while knowing that Oswald had been in the lunchroom with Truly (but not understanding this was a brief, chance encounter).  She then wills herself into history by claiming to have seen Oswald around that location.

The problem with this, Mr Smith, is that Mrs Reid could not possibly have believed that Mr Truly had been lunching with Mr Oswald when the police officer burst in
-----------she (along with Mr Ochus V. Campbell) had just been standing beside Mr Truly watching the motorcade...

But you're quite right to doubt Mrs Reid's cockamamie story!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 26, 2019, 10:45:49 PM
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We know Oswald beat it out of there as quickly as he could.

Really? And how exactly do we know that?

Hello Mr Weidmann!

There's no question but that Mr Oswald lied about his reason for leaving the scene and ending up in a movie theater.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2019, 11:03:57 PM
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His crystal ball.

You need a crystal ball to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD in short order?  Even though he showed up in his boardinghouse in Oak Cliff around 1PM and was seen in a bus and taxi prior to that.  LOL.  Amazing.  Go with the fantasy that Oswald was a gullible patsy who got wise fast in the aftermath of the assassination.  When do you believe Oswald left the TSBD? 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2019, 11:48:08 PM
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You need a crystal ball to conclude that Oswald left the TSBD in short order?  Even though he showed up in his boardinghouse in Oak Cliff around 1PM and was seen in a bus and taxi prior to that.  LOL.  Amazing.

How does that equate to "beat it out of there as quickly as he could"?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 12:28:00 AM
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Hello Mr Weidmann!

There's no question but that Mr Oswald lied about his reason for leaving the scene and ending up in a movie theater.

WHY?? Is there no doubt in your mind ..... What leads you to believe that Lee lied about his reason for leaving work for the day?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 27, 2019, 01:20:28 AM
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In her affidavit, Pauline Sanders confirms that Reid mentioned Oswald's lunchroom encounter with Truly which she attributed to them "evidently lunching."  In Reid's understanding of events as recounted to Sanders, Truly and Oswald were having lunch when a policeman put a gun in Oswald's stomach and Truly vouches for him as an employee.  Obviously, a scrambled rendition of facts.  Reid was not present during the lunchroom encounter.  So how would she know about this lunchroom encounter unless she was told or overheard it from others in the aftermath of the assassination?  Don't you think the TSBD employees discussed among themselves what they had seen that day?  As a result, she knows from others that Oswald was in the lunchroom in the vicinity of her workstation after the assassination.  She may or may not have seen someone in a white t-shirt and claims it was Oswald - a person who she barely knew.   There is doubt as to whether this encounter took place and, if so, whether it was Oswald or not.  In the aftermath of historical events, some people intentionally or unintentionally falsely want to put themselves into the events.  It seems unlikely that Oswald was wearing only a white t-shirt since that is not how he was described in the lunchroom encounter moments earlier.  But believe anything you want.  It doesn't matter much whether she saw him or not.


Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot. According to SANDERS, Mrs. REID claimed that OSWALD just mumbled something and left the office. She said Reid did not mention how OSWALD left the office or for that matter if she knew how he might have left the building. SANDERS advised that the stairwell would probably have been the easiest way to leave without being too noticeable since the stairwell is in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the stairwell.

.

In her affidavit, Pauline Sanders confirms that Reid mentioned Oswald's lunchroom encounter with Truly which she attributed to them "evidently lunching."

What affidavit would that be?

All I have found is an FBI report dated 11/24/63 which claims that Sanders claimed that Reid had provided her information during a phone call earlier that day.

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 01:38:18 AM
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His crystal ball.

I heard of a man who had lost one in an accident and had a glass one implanted ....But I've never heard of one made of crystal...
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 27, 2019, 01:57:53 AM
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In her affidavit, Pauline Sanders confirms that Reid mentioned Oswald's lunchroom encounter with Truly which she attributed to them "evidently lunching."

What affidavit would that be?

All I have found is an FBI report dated 11/24/63 which claims that Sanders claimed that Reid had provided her information during a phone call earlier that day.

Wow.  You want to split hairs over whether her statement is in the form of an affidavit or statement given to the FBI when you erroneously claimed that I made up that Reid had talked to others to know that Oswald was seen on her floor?  How about sticking to the substance?  Reid was told by someone that Oswald had been in the lunchroom.  She claims to see a man in a white t-shirt after the event.  She claims it is Oswald but she barely knew him.  She describes him as wearing only a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely as described by Baker and Truly just moments before.  Maybe it was Oswald, maybe it wasn't.  It doesn't appear to make a lot of difference.  If that was the type of witness description given to link Oswald to the Tippit murder, you would cry about it until doomsday.  What point are you trying to make?  That you believe there is no doubt that she saw Oswald? 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 27, 2019, 10:00:05 AM
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Wow.  You want to split hairs over whether her statement is in the form of an affidavit or statement given to the FBI when you erroneously claimed that I made up that Reid had talked to others to know that Oswald was seen on her floor?  How about sticking to the substance?  Reid was told by someone that Oswald had been in the lunchroom.  She claims to see a man in a white t-shirt after the event.  She claims it is Oswald but she barely knew him.  She describes him as wearing only a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely as described by Baker and Truly just moments before.  Maybe it was Oswald, maybe it wasn't.  It doesn't appear to make a lot of difference.  If that was the type of witness description given to link Oswald to the Tippit murder, you would cry about it until doomsday.  What point are you trying to make?  That you believe there is no doubt that she saw Oswald?

You want to split hairs over whether her statement is in the form of an affidavit or statement given to the FBI

There is a massive difference between an affidavit and an alleged statement given to the FBI. Sanders would have read and signed an affidavit in front of a notary public. An FBI report, on the other hand, is an internal document which Sanders would never have seen or signed and thus could contain anything regardless if it was true or not. Presenting an FBI report as an affidavit is simply a misrepresentation of the facts.

when you erroneously claimed that I made up that Reid had talked to others to know that Oswald was seen on her floor?

Get your facts straight! I never made such a claim.... I just noticed that you went from "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences and called it pure speculation which is exactly what it is. What's in that FBI report is at best hearsay!

How about sticking to the substance?  Reid was told by someone that Oswald had been in the lunchroom.

Who is that someone?

She claims to see a man in a white t-shirt after the event.  She claims it is Oswald but she barely knew him.  She describes him as wearing only a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely as described by Baker and Truly just moments before.  Maybe it was Oswald, maybe it wasn't.

In other words, you haven't got a clue if it was Oswald or not, but you go with that she was wrong anyway, based on something she may or may not have said to Sanders during a phonecall two days after the murder.

It doesn't appear to make a lot of difference.

You've said that before. So why bring it up?

If that was the type of witness description given to link Oswald to the Tippit murder, you would cry about it until doomsday.

And rightly so. The witness descriptions are all over the place. Baker thought he saw a brown jacket, Reid saw a white T shirt, Bledsoe allegedly saw a shirt with a hole in a sleeve, Whaley thought he saw two jackets and the descriptions of what Tippit's killer was wearing aren't much better.

What point are you trying to make? 

That you are merely speculating about what Reid saw and thought based on hearsay written in a non verbatim FBI report which you seem to accept blindly and without reservation.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 07:06:17 PM
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You want to split hairs over whether her statement is in the form of an affidavit or statement given to the FBI

There is a massive difference between an affidavit and an alleged statement given to the FBI. Sanders would have read and signed an affidavit in front of a notary public. An FBI report, on the other hand, is an internal document which Sanders would never have seen or signed and thus could contain anything regardless if it was true or not. Presenting an FBI report as an affidavit is simply a misrepresentation of the facts.

when you erroneously claimed that I made up that Reid had talked to others to know that Oswald was seen on her floor?

Get your facts straight! I never made such a claim.... I just noticed that you went from "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences and called it pure speculation which is exactly what it is. What's in that FBI report is at best hearsay!

How about sticking to the substance?  Reid was told by someone that Oswald had been in the lunchroom.

Who is that someone?

She claims to see a man in a white t-shirt after the event.  She claims it is Oswald but she barely knew him.  She describes him as wearing only a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely as described by Baker and Truly just moments before.  Maybe it was Oswald, maybe it wasn't.

In other words, you haven't got a clue if it was Oswald or not, but you go with that she was wrong anyway, based on something she may or may not have said to Sanders during a phonecall two days after the murder.

It doesn't appear to make a lot of difference.

You've said that before. So why bring it up?

If that was the type of witness description given to link Oswald to the Tippit murder, you would cry about it until doomsday.

And rightly so. The witness descriptions are all over the place. Baker thought he saw a brown jacket, Reid saw a white T shirt, Bledsoe allegedly saw a shirt with a hole in a sleeve, Whaley thought he saw two jackets and the descriptions of what Tippit's killer was wearing aren't much better.

What point are you trying to make? 

That you are merely speculating about what Reid saw and thought based on hearsay written in a non verbatim FBI report which you seem to accept blindly and without reservation.

you are merely speculating about what Reid saw and thought based on hearsay written in a non verbatim FBI report

You're right Martin.... But unfortunately "speculation" is what we are left with.....  The Warren Commission and other government run "investigations" have provided few solid answers to the questions ....Thus we are left with speculating.....   

However.... I do believe that there is ample evidence to reach some solid conclusions that go to the heart of the case.   I'm not sure that debating Lee Oswald's movements inside the TSBD after the shooting will advance our understanding or establish any solid facts.

Lee Told the interrogators that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the parade passed by the building.   And he said that he saw Jarman and Norman enter the building at the time that he was in the lunchroom....  IMO.... that establishes the fact that he was not on the sixth floor.   
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 27, 2019, 09:35:49 PM
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You want to split hairs over whether her statement is in the form of an affidavit or statement given to the FBI

There is a massive difference between an affidavit and an alleged statement given to the FBI. Sanders would have read and signed an affidavit in front of a notary public. An FBI report, on the other hand, is an internal document which Sanders would never have seen or signed and thus could contain anything regardless if it was true or not. Presenting an FBI report as an affidavit is simply a misrepresentation of the facts.

when you erroneously claimed that I made up that Reid had talked to others to know that Oswald was seen on her floor?

Get your facts straight! I never made such a claim.... I just noticed that you went from "She may have talked to others" to "She had clearly talked to others" in two sentences and called it pure speculation which is exactly what it is. What's in that FBI report is at best hearsay!

How about sticking to the substance?  Reid was told by someone that Oswald had been in the lunchroom.

Who is that someone?

She claims to see a man in a white t-shirt after the event.  She claims it is Oswald but she barely knew him.  She describes him as wearing only a white t-shirt which seems extremely unlikely as described by Baker and Truly just moments before.  Maybe it was Oswald, maybe it wasn't.

In other words, you haven't got a clue if it was Oswald or not, but you go with that she was wrong anyway, based on something she may or may not have said to Sanders during a phonecall two days after the murder.

It doesn't appear to make a lot of difference.

You've said that before. So why bring it up?

If that was the type of witness description given to link Oswald to the Tippit murder, you would cry about it until doomsday.

And rightly so. The witness descriptions are all over the place. Baker thought he saw a brown jacket, Reid saw a white T shirt, Bledsoe allegedly saw a shirt with a hole in a sleeve, Whaley thought he saw two jackets and the descriptions of what Tippit's killer was wearing aren't much better.

What point are you trying to make? 

That you are merely speculating about what Reid saw and thought based on hearsay written in a non verbatim FBI report which you seem to accept blindly and without reservation.

I didn't say Reid was wrong about seeing Oswald.  I said "Maybe she did, maybe she didn't."  There is doubt.  After taking issue with that for some unknown reason Martin goes on to agree with me that her identification of Oswald as the person she spoke with is suspect! But chastises me for using "speculation" in reaching the very same conclusion he does.  LOL.  I referenced an account from Pauline Saunders that confirms that Reid had knowledge of the Truly/Oswald lunchroom encounter.  Something Martin was ignorant of when he suggested it was "completely unfounded speculation."  As Reid was not present in the lunchroom, that tells us she must have learned of the lunchroom encounter from someone else.  Who she learned this from is unknown but unless she was psychic we know from that information that she had discussed it to know it happened.  In fact, the call with Saunders is itself confirmation of the point that Reid was discussing the facts of the case with others.  Martin resorts here to the tired old nonsense about "accepting blindly" the FBI report.  Pathetic.  All this effort and he apparently agrees with me on the basic point that I was making.  There is doubt of Reid's encounter with Oswald.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2019, 09:48:44 PM
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I didn't say Reid was wrong about seeing Oswald.  I said "Maybe she did, maybe she didn't."  There is doubt.  After taking issue with that for some unknown reason Martin goes on to agree with me that her identification of Oswald as the person she spoke with is suspect! But chastises me for using "speculation" in reaching the very same conclusion he does.  LOL.  I referenced an account from Pauline Saunders that confirms that Reid had knowledge of the Truly/Oswald lunchroom encounter.  Something Martin was ignorant of when he suggested it was "completely unfounded speculation."  As Reid was not present in the lunchroom, that tells us she must have learned of the lunchroom encounter from someone else.  Who she learned this from is unknown but unless she was psychic we know from that information that she had discussed it to know it happened.  In fact, the call with Saunders is itself confirmation of the point that Reid was discussing the facts of the case with others.  Martin resorts here to the tired old nonsense about "accepting blindly" the FBI report.  Pathetic.  All this effort and he apparently agrees with me on the basic point that I was making.  There is doubt of Reid's encounter with Oswald.

Ms Geneva L. Hine's testimony makes a nonsense of Mrs Reid's story!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2019, 10:08:32 PM
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And he said that he saw Jarman and Norman enter the building at the time that he was in the lunchroom....  IMO.... that establishes the fact that he was not on the sixth floor.

There's no evidence that he said anything about them entering the building.  That's a Walt fabrication.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 10:45:34 PM
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There's no evidence that he said anything about them entering the building.  That's a Walt fabrication.

You know that's not true, John.....  Fritz jotted it down in his notes..... 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 27, 2019, 11:55:44 PM
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I didn't say Reid was wrong about seeing Oswald.  I said "Maybe she did, maybe she didn't."  There is doubt.  After taking issue with that for some unknown reason Martin goes on to agree with me that her identification of Oswald as the person she spoke with is suspect! But chastises me for using "speculation" in reaching the very same conclusion he does.  LOL.  I referenced an account from Pauline Saunders that confirms that Reid had knowledge of the Truly/Oswald lunchroom encounter.  Something Martin was ignorant of when he suggested it was "completely unfounded speculation."  As Reid was not present in the lunchroom, that tells us she must have learned of the lunchroom encounter from someone else.  Who she learned this from is unknown but unless she was psychic we know from that information that she had discussed it to know it happened.  In fact, the call with Saunders is itself confirmation of the point that Reid was discussing the facts of the case with others.  Martin resorts here to the tired old nonsense about "accepting blindly" the FBI report.  Pathetic.  All this effort and he apparently agrees with me on the basic point that I was making.  There is doubt of Reid's encounter with Oswald.


After taking issue with that for some unknown reason Martin goes on to agree with me that her identification of Oswald as the person she spoke with is suspect!

You need to get off whatever it is you are on, because it's making you delusional. I never took issue about anything nor did I ever agree with you. In fact, I expressed no opinion either way. You are just making stuff up, as per usual.

But chastises me for using "speculation" in reaching the very same conclusion he does. 

The only conclusion I have reached is that you were speculating.

I referenced an account from Pauline Saunders that confirms that Reid had knowledge of the Truly/Oswald lunchroom encounter.  Something Martin was ignorant of when he suggested it was "completely unfounded speculation."  As Reid was not present in the lunchroom, that tells us she must have learned of the lunchroom encounter from someone else.  Who she learned this from is unknown but unless she was psychic we know from that information that she had discussed it to know it happened. 

All of this assumes that Sanders provided an 100% acurate account of her telephone call with Reid on 11/24/63. For all we know, Sanders may well have heard herself about the lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, which she then discussed with Reid on the phone and later simply got her "facts" mixed up or communicated them badly to the FBI agents. It even assumes that the FBI agents wrote what she said correctly in their report. You can not simply assume that Reid must have heard it from somebody, only based on what you believe Sanders said, because that is nothing more than pure speculation on your part. 

In fact, the call with Saunders is itself confirmation of the point that Reid was discussing the facts of the case with others.

Is it now? So, who initiated the call? Can you be sure that it wasn't Sanders who called Reid to discuss the case? And even if Reid was the one who called, do you really think she was the only TSBD employee who was talking to others about what had happened? I wouldn't be surprised if they all talked to eachother, which of course makes your "confirmation" nothing more than a meaningless worthless observation.

Martin resorts here to the tired old nonsense about "accepting blindly" the FBI report.  Pathetic. 

The main argument against releasing FBI reports to the public is that they often contain unverified and incorrect information about events and people gathered during an investigation. In other words, there is no guarantee that the information in those FD 302's is 100% correct. So, what is really pathetic is that you accept the content of such a report as if it was part of the bible.

All this effort and he apparently agrees with me on the basic point that I was making.  There is doubt of Reid's encounter with Oswald.

Wrong again... the "basic point" you were making is that your find Reid's statement unreliable based solely upon your own speculations about the meaning of a text in an FBI report. No way do I agree with that kind of crap.

As for there being doubt..... Sure there is. In this case it's everywhere you look, but for the most time you don't want to see or accept it unless you can use it in support of your own weak LN nut theory!

Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 12:31:47 AM
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You know that's not true, John.....  Fritz jotted it down in his notes.....

No, what Fritz "jotted down in his notes" (several days later) was "say two negr. came in. One Jr. + short negro".
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2019, 12:56:44 AM
As demonstrated way back by Mr S. Murphy, the 'Fritz' notes are not Captain Fritz's independent notes so much as Captain Fritz's scribblings based on Agent Bookhout's reports (perhaps read out to Captain Fritz? He abbreviates Agent Bookhout's name to 'B.O'!).

Example!

(https://i.imgur.com/fM24OOX.png)

From Agent Bookhout's FBI Interrogation Report #4 (dictated 11/24/63):

Oswald stated that he desired to contact Attorney Abt, New York City, indicating that Abt was the attorney who had defended the Smith Act case about 1949-1950. He stated that he does not know Attorney Abt personally. Captain Fritz advised Oswald that arrangement would be immediately made whereby he could call Attorney Abt.

Oswald stated that prior to coming to Dallas from New Orleans he had resided at a furnished apartment at 4706 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. While in New Orleans, he had been employed by William B. Riley Company, 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans.

Oswald stated that he has nothing against President John F. Kennedy personally; however in view of the present charges against him, he did not desire to discuss this phase further.

Oswald stated that he would not agree to take a polygraph examination without the advice of counsel. He added that in the past he has refused to take polygraph examinations.

Oswald stated that he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and added that Mrs. Ruth Paine was also a member of same.

With regard to Selective Service card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.

Oswald stated that an address book in his possession contains the names of various Russian immigrants residing in Dallas, Texas, whom he has visited with.

Oswald denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and added that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot and denied any knowledge concerning this incident.


Now! Let's compare bit by bit!  Thumb1:

BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he desired to contact Attorney Abt, New York City, indicating that Abt was the attorney who had defended the Smith Act case about 1949-1950.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Desires to talk to Mr. Abt. I ask who/ says Smith act att.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that prior to coming to Dallas from New Orleans he had resided at a furnished apartment at 4706 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. While in New Orleans, he had been employed by William B. Riley Company, 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says did live N.O. 4706 Magazine St. Furn Apt, worked for B. Riley Co 640
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he has nothing against President John F. Kennedy personally; however in view of the present charges against him, he did not desire to discuss this phase further.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says nothing against Pres does not want to talk further ?
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he would not agree to take a polygraph examination without the advice of counsel. He added that in the past he has refused to take polygraph examinations.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
No poly at time in past had refused
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and added that Mrs. Ruth Paine was also a member of same.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Oswald A.C.L.U. member he says says Mrs Payne was too.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
With regard to Selective Service card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
B.O. ask abt Heidel selective s. card ? adm having it would not admit signature ? wouldn?t say why he had it.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that an address book in his possession contains the names of various Russian immigrants residing in Dallas, Texas, whom he has visited with.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says Add. Book has names of Russian Emigrants he visits
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and added that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot and denied any knowledge concerning this incident.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
denied shooting Pres says didn?t know Gov. shot

Kinda similar, dontcha think?  ???
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2019, 01:15:30 AM
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As demonstrated way back by Mr S. Murphy, the 'Fritz' notes are not Captain Fritz's independent notes so much as Captain Fritz's scribblings based on Agent Bookhout's reports (perhaps read out to Captain Fritz? He abbreviates Agent Bookhout's name to 'B.O'!).

Example!

(https://i.imgur.com/fM24OOX.png)

From Agent Bookhout's FBI Interrogation Report #4 (dictated 11/24/63):

Oswald stated that he desired to contact Attorney Abt, New York City, indicating that Abt was the attorney who had defended the Smith Act case about 1949-1950. He stated that he does not know Attorney Abt personally. Captain Fritz advised Oswald that arrangement would be immediately made whereby he could call Attorney Abt.

Oswald stated that prior to coming to Dallas from New Orleans he had resided at a furnished apartment at 4706 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. While in New Orleans, he had been employed by William B. Riley Company, 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans.

Oswald stated that he has nothing against President John F. Kennedy personally; however in view of the present charges against him, he did not desire to discuss this phase further.

Oswald stated that he would not agree to take a polygraph examination without the advice of counsel. He added that in the past he has refused to take polygraph examinations.

Oswald stated that he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and added that Mrs. Ruth Paine was also a member of same.

With regard to Selective Service card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.

Oswald stated that an address book in his possession contains the names of various Russian immigrants residing in Dallas, Texas, whom he has visited with.

Oswald denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and added that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot and denied any knowledge concerning this incident.


Now! Let's compare bit by bit!  Thumb1:

BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he desired to contact Attorney Abt, New York City, indicating that Abt was the attorney who had defended the Smith Act case about 1949-1950.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Desires to talk to Mr. Abt. I ask who/ says Smith act att.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that prior to coming to Dallas from New Orleans he had resided at a furnished apartment at 4706 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. While in New Orleans, he had been employed by William B. Riley Company, 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says did live N.O. 4706 Magazine St. Furn Apt, worked for B. Riley Co 640
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he has nothing against President John F. Kennedy personally; however in view of the present charges against him, he did not desire to discuss this phase further.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says nothing against Pres does not want to talk further ?
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he would not agree to take a polygraph examination without the advice of counsel. He added that in the past he has refused to take polygraph examinations.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
No poly at time in past had refused
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and added that Mrs. Ruth Paine was also a member of same.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Oswald A.C.L.U. member he says says Mrs Payne was too.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
With regard to Selective Service card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
B.O. ask abt Heidel selective s. card ? adm having it would not admit signature ? wouldn?t say why he had it.
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald stated that an address book in his possession contains the names of various Russian immigrants residing in Dallas, Texas, whom he has visited with.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
Says Add. Book has names of Russian Emigrants he visits
BOOKHOUT INTERROGATION REPORT:
Oswald denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and added that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot and denied any knowledge concerning this incident.
?FRITZ? NOTES:
denied shooting Pres says didn?t know Gov. shot

Kinda similar, dontcha think?  ???

However!

The neat point-for-point correspondence between the 'Fritz' notes and the Bookhout reports is only partially there for the all-important First Interrogation.

From the solo Bookhout Interrogation Report dictated 11/24/63:


Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department.

Oswald stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. his usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however, he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.


The 'Fritz' notes for Interrogation The First:

(https://i.imgur.com/HufOyO3.jpg)

Nothing about Mr Oswald's claim to have been "on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed the building"-----------which was in the earlier Bookhout-Hosty report but has now been clean forgotten!  ???
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 01:59:05 AM
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However!

The neat point-for-point correspondence between the 'Fritz' notes and the Bookhout reports is only partially there for the all-important First Interrogation.

From the solo Bookhout Interrogation Report dictated 11/24/63:


Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department.

Oswald stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. his usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however, he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.


The 'Fritz' notes for Interrogation The First:

(https://i.imgur.com/HufOyO3.jpg)

Nothing about Mr Oswald's claim to have been "on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed the building"-----------which was in the earlier Bookhout-Hosty report but has now been clean forgotten!  ???

Re: the 3:15 entry by Fritz ( high lighted in pink)

The carcano was brought in by Lt Day, and Lee was asked...."Have you ever seen this before? "( The display of the murder weapon to the suspect is is a SOP with police interrogations.)

Here's how Fritz originally wrote that: [i]"Doesn't own rifle, saw at bldg,  Mr Truly and two others.".[/i]. The word "one" was added later..( notice that the word "one is added outside the rest of the text) . .And that little word  changes the meaning of what he originally wrote.

Now let's take look at How Hosty recorded Lee's response to the display of the carcano ...."Day before yesterday Mr Truly had rifle and two others 1st floor outside office"

And Bookhout recorded ...."says Doesn't own rifle"
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2019, 01:54:43 PM
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After taking issue with that for some unknown reason Martin goes on to agree with me that her identification of Oswald as the person she spoke with is suspect!

You need to get off whatever it is you are on, because it's making you delusional. I never took issue about anything nor did I ever agree with you. In fact, I expressed no opinion either way. You are just making stuff up, as per usual.

But chastises me for using "speculation" in reaching the very same conclusion he does. 

The only conclusion I have reached is that you were speculating.

I referenced an account from Pauline Saunders that confirms that Reid had knowledge of the Truly/Oswald lunchroom encounter.  Something Martin was ignorant of when he suggested it was "completely unfounded speculation."  As Reid was not present in the lunchroom, that tells us she must have learned of the lunchroom encounter from someone else.  Who she learned this from is unknown but unless she was psychic we know from that information that she had discussed it to know it happened. 

All of this assumes that Sanders provided an 100% acurate account of her telephone call with Reid on 11/24/63. For all we know, Sanders may well have heard herself about the lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, which she then discussed with Reid on the phone and later simply got her "facts" mixed up or communicated them badly to the FBI agents. It even assumes that the FBI agents wrote what she said correctly in their report. You can not simply assume that Reid must have heard it from somebody, only based on what you believe Sanders said, because that is nothing more than pure speculation on your part. 

In fact, the call with Saunders is itself confirmation of the point that Reid was discussing the facts of the case with others.

Is it now? So, who initiated the call? Can you be sure that it wasn't Sanders who called Reid to discuss the case? And even if Reid was the one who called, do you really think she was the only TSBD employee who was talking to others about what had happened? I wouldn't be surprised if they all talked to eachother, which of course makes your "confirmation" nothing more than a meaningless worthless observation.

Martin resorts here to the tired old nonsense about "accepting blindly" the FBI report.  Pathetic. 

The main argument against releasing FBI reports to the public is that they often contain unverified and incorrect information about events and people gathered during an investigation. In other words, there is no guarantee that the information in those FD 302's is 100% correct. So, what is really pathetic is that you accept the content of such a report as if it was part of the bible.

All this effort and he apparently agrees with me on the basic point that I was making.  There is doubt of Reid's encounter with Oswald.

Wrong again... the "basic point" you were making is that your find Reid's statement unreliable based solely upon your own speculations about the meaning of a text in an FBI report. No way do I agree with that kind of crap.

As for there being doubt..... Sure there is. In this case it's everywhere you look, but for the most time you don't want to see or accept it unless you can use it in support of your own weak LN nut theory!

So many words.  The point is simply that there is doubt that the person Reid spoke with was Oswald.  When I noted that you would not accept Reid's identification of Oswald as the person with whom she allegedly spoke under the same standard you use for the Tippit witnesses, you responded "rightly so."  The bottom line of your incoherent ramblings here is that you are arguing with the wind.   Then you are attempting to conflate actual doubt in this instance with fake doubt in other instances in this case.  It is truly bizarre to quibble about doubts regarding Reid's identification using reasonable standards while without missing a beat applying an impossible standard of proof in other instances of the case.  My favorite point here though has to be your contention that we can't conclude that Reid spoke with others about the case unless we know who initiated the phone call!  LOL.  So under that line of nutty logic, if Saunders called Reid and Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter it would somehow be different than if Reid called Saunders and had the very same conversation.  Wow.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 03:27:39 PM
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Then you are attempting to conflate actual doubt in this instance with fake doubt in other instances in this case.

LOL.  There's only doubt when "Richard" says there is doubt.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 28, 2019, 03:51:30 PM
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So many words.  The point is simply that there is doubt that the person Reid spoke with was Oswald.  When I noted that you would not accept Reid's identification of Oswald as the person with whom she allegedly spoke under the same standard you use for the Tippit witnesses, you responded "rightly so."  The bottom line of your incoherent ramblings here is that you are arguing with the wind.   Then you are attempting to conflate actual doubt in this instance with fake doubt in other instances in this case.  It is truly bizarre to quibble about doubts regarding Reid's identification using reasonable standards while without missing a beat applying an impossible standard of proof in other instances of the case.  My favorite point here though has to be your contention that we can't conclude that Reid spoke with others about the case unless we know who initiated the phone call!  LOL.  So under that line of nutty logic, if Saunders called Reid and Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter it would somehow be different than if Reid called Saunders and had the very same conversation.  Wow.

Oh boy, so many words and so little content.

My favorite point here though has to be your contention that we can't conclude that Reid spoke with others about the case unless we know who initiated the phone call!  LOL.  So under that line of nutty logic, if Saunders called Reid and Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter it would somehow be different than if Reid called Saunders and had the very same conversation.  Wow.

Even a brianless person would have understood the point I was making, but it went completely over your head.
.

Then you are attempting to conflate actual doubt in this instance with fake doubt in other instances in this case.  It is truly bizarre to quibble about doubts regarding Reid's identification using reasonable standards while without missing a beat applying an impossible standard of proof in other instances of the case.   

Let me guess?. you think you are the one who gets to determine what those reasonable standards are, right? 

The point is simply that there is doubt that the person Reid spoke with was Oswald.

Reasonable and sane people understand and accept there is doubt about nearly everything in this case. You invent doubt using a hearsay FBI report about something somebody may or may not have discussed with others.

If it wasn't Oswald that Reid saw then who was it and where did Oswald go after leaving the 2nd floor lunchroom?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2019, 04:12:17 PM
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Oh boy, so many words and so little content.

My favorite point here though has to be your contention that we can't conclude that Reid spoke with others about the case unless we know who initiated the phone call!  LOL.  So under that line of nutty logic, if Saunders called Reid and Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter it would somehow be different than if Reid called Saunders and had the very same conversation.  Wow.

Even a brianless person would have understood the point I was making, but it went completely over your head. When the very same conversation took place it wouldn?t have mattered at all, but that wasn?t the point. My point was that if Sanders initiated the call and she was the one who brought up the matter to Reid your entire crappy argument blows up in your face.

Then you are attempting to conflate actual doubt in this instance with fake doubt in other instances in this case.  It is truly bizarre to quibble about doubts regarding Reid's identification using reasonable standards while without missing a beat applying an impossible standard of proof in other instances of the case.   

Let me guess?. you think you are the one who gets to determine what those reasonable standards are, right? 

The point is simply that there is doubt that the person Reid spoke with was Oswald.

Reasonable and sane people understand and accept there is doubt about nearly everything in this case. You invent doubt using a hearsay FBI report about something somebody may or may not have discussed with others.

If it wasn't Oswald that Reid saw then who was it and where did Oswald go after leaving the 2nd floor lunchroom?

You are doubling down on the idea that what is discussed on a telephone call is somehow dependent on who initiated the call?  LOL.  That is truly bizarre.  In the course of that call, Sanders indicated that Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter.   How would Reid know about this since she was not present in the lunchroom unless she had been told about it (i.e. discussed it or overheard someone with knowledge of the event discussing it)?  Good grief.  The point has gone way over your head.  Regardless of how the topic arose on the call, Reid could not have had knowledge of the Oswald/Truly encounter on her floor unless someone told her.  She was not present in the lunchroom.  She was not psychic.  The ONLY conclusion that can be drawn from her having this knowledge is that it was imparted to her by someone else.  We don't know who told her but that doesn't mean she wasn't told since it the only way she could have known about it.  Once she knows that Oswald was on her floor, her encounter with a person (real or imagined) lends itself in her mind to it being Oswald although she barely knows him and describes him being in a white t-shirt even though we know that is not how he was dressed moments before.  Again, though, you seemingly agree with me on the only point being made in this context.  That there is doubt about whether it was Oswald she saw or not.   Why you so strenuously object to the application of reasonable doubt in this context while embracing outlandish impossible standards of proof in other contexts is particularly ironic and humorous. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 05:48:02 PM
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However!

The neat point-for-point correspondence between the 'Fritz' notes and the Bookhout reports is only partially there for the all-important First Interrogation.

From the solo Bookhout Interrogation Report dictated 11/24/63:


Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at.

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department.

Oswald stated that his hours of work at the Texas School Book Depository are from 8 a.m. to 4:45 p.m., but that he is not required to punch a time clock. his usual place of work in the building is on the first floor; however, he frequently is required to go to the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh floors of the building in order to get books and this was true on November 22, 1963, and he had been on all of the floors in the performance of his duties on November 22, 1963.


The 'Fritz' notes for Interrogation The First:

(https://i.imgur.com/HufOyO3.jpg)

Nothing about Mr Oswald's claim to have been "on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed the building"-----------which was in the earlier Bookhout-Hosty report but has now been clean forgotten!  ???

He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository

NO!!   That is NOT what was recorded by Fritz and Hosty..... 

Hosty wrote:..." (11/20 ) day before yesterday, Mr Truly had rifle and two others , first floor outside offices "
Fritz wrote:....".Doesn't own rifle, saw at building"

To understand what was recorded you must know that Lt. Day had brought the carcano into the homicide office to confront Lee Oswald with the murder weapon.  " Have you ever seen this before, Mr Oswald?".....and Lee said that yes, he's seen it before.  " I saw it and two other rifles in Mr Truly's office the day before yesterday His office is an outside office on the first floor" 

And on page 619 of the WR ... The FBI report says..."Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository.which Mr truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at it."
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 06:17:33 PM
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Once she knows that Oswald was on her floor, her encounter with a person (real or imagined) lends itself in her mind to it being Oswald although she barely knows him and describes him being in a white t-shirt even though we know that is not how he was dressed moments before.

We know nothing of the kind.  You're taking two conflicting descriptions and choosing which one you prefer.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 06:19:38 PM
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To understand what was recorded you must know that Lt. Day had brought the carcano into the homicide office to confront Lee Oswald with the murder weapon.  " Have you ever seen this before, Mr Oswald?".....and Lee said that yes, he's seen it before.  " I saw it and two other rifles in Mr Truly's office the day before yesterday His office is an outside office on the first floor" 

Why must he know that?  Just because you made it up?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 07:11:25 PM
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Why must he know that?  Just because you made it up?

Hosty wrote:..." (11/20 ) day before yesterday, Mr Truly had rifle and two others , first floor outside offices "
Fritz wrote:....".Doesn't own rifle, saw at building"

What part do you believe I made up?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 28, 2019, 07:12:07 PM
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You are doubling down on the idea that what is discussed on a telephone call is somehow dependent on who initiated the call?  LOL.  That is truly bizarre.  In the course of that call, Sanders indicated that Reid told her about the Oswald/Truly lunchroom encounter.   How would Reid know about this since she was not present in the lunchroom unless she had been told about it (i.e. discussed it or overheard someone with knowledge of the event discussing it)?  Good grief.  The point has gone way over your head.  Regardless of how the topic arose on the call, Reid could not have had knowledge of the Oswald/Truly encounter on her floor unless someone told her.  She was not present in the lunchroom.  She was not psychic.  The ONLY conclusion that can be drawn from her having this knowledge is that it was imparted to her by someone else.  We don't know who told her but that doesn't mean she wasn't told since it the only way she could have known about it.  Once she knows that Oswald was on her floor, her encounter with a person (real or imagined) lends itself in her mind to it being Oswald although she barely knows him and describes him being in a white t-shirt even though we know that is not how he was dressed moments before.  Again, though, you seemingly agree with me on the only point being made in this context.  That there is doubt about whether it was Oswald she saw or not.   Why you so strenuously object to the application of reasonable doubt in this context while embracing outlandish impossible standards of proof in other contexts is particularly ironic and humorous.

You are doubling down on the idea that what is discussed on a telephone call is somehow dependent on who initiated the call?

It seems there is indeed no fixing stupid. You either truly don't understand what I said or you are purposely misrepresenting it, in which case you already have lost the argument.

Once she knows that Oswald was on her floor, her encounter with a person (real or imagined) lends itself in her mind to it being Oswald although she barely knows him and describes him being in a white t-shirt even though we know that is not how he was dressed moments before.  Again, though, you seemingly agree with me on the only point being made in this context.  That there is doubt about whether it was Oswald she saw or not. 

You keep on implying that she either made it up or that she saw somebody else and made a mistake. So, I'll ask again, if you doubt it was Oswald, then who was it?

So, just to play devil's advocate here, let's examine what we have; Oswald was seen in the lunchroom with a bottle of coke (yeah I know, Baker later changed his story) and shortly thereafter he is allegedly seen leaving the building through the front door, after showing a reporter where the telephone was. It's a minimal distance between the lunchroom and the front door and Reid said she entered the building directly after the shooting. Add it all up and one must conclude that there couldn't have been anybody else in that office area, carrying a coke and walking away from the lunchroom to the front door, than Oswald. So, if you want to doubt Reid's statement, you are going to have to explain not only who else it could have been that she saw but also where Oswald was and what he did at that exact time. You can't do neither!

You only want to doubt Reid's statement because you can't explain the white T shirt and you're using something that Sanders may have said to an FBI agent to make your flawed argument. Even if somebody told Reid about the lunchroom encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly, that still doesn't mean Reid imagined her encounter with Oswald!

Why you so strenuously object to the application of reasonable doubt in this context while embracing outlandish impossible standards of proof in other contexts is particularly ironic and humorous.

This coming from the guy who only selectively wants to see doubt, when the entire case is cause for nothing but doubt is particularly ironic and humorous.


Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2019, 08:00:34 PM
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You are doubling down on the idea that what is discussed on a telephone call is somehow dependent on who initiated the call?

It seems there is indeed no fixing stupid. You either truly don't understand what I said or you are purposely misrepresenting it, in which case you already have lost the argument.

Once she knows that Oswald was on her floor, her encounter with a person (real or imagined) lends itself in her mind to it being Oswald although she barely knows him and describes him being in a white t-shirt even though we know that is not how he was dressed moments before.  Again, though, you seemingly agree with me on the only point being made in this context.  That there is doubt about whether it was Oswald she saw or not. 

You keep on implying that she either made it up or that she saw somebody else and made a mistake. So, I'll ask again, if you doubt it was Oswald, then who was it?

So, just to play devil's advocate here, let's examine what we have; Oswald was seen in the lunchroom with a bottle of coke (yeah I know, Baker later changed his story) and shortly thereafter he is allegedly seen leaving the building through the front door, after showing a reporter where the telephone was. It's a minimal distance between the lunchroom and the front door and Reid said she entered the building directly after the shooting. Add it all up and one must conclude that there couldn't have been anybody else in that office area, carrying a coke and walking away from the lunchroom to the front door, than Oswald. So, if you want to doubt Reid's statement, you are going to have to explain not only who else it could have been that she saw but also where Oswald was and what he did at that exact time. You can't do neither!

You only want to doubt Reid's statement because you can't explain the white T shirt and you're using something that Sanders may have said to an FBI agent to make your flawed argument. Even if somebody told Reid about the lunchroom encounter between Oswald, Baker and Truly, that still doesn't mean Reid imagined her encounter with Oswald!

Why you so strenuously object to the application of reasonable doubt in this context while embracing outlandish impossible standards of proof in other contexts is particularly ironic and humorous.

This coming from the guy who only selectively wants to see doubt, when the entire case is cause for nothing but doubt is particularly ironic and humorous.

Do you believe there is reasonable doubt that the person Reid encountered was Oswald or not?  Yes or no.  It's a simple question that I thought you had already answered in the affirmative.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.  That after 50 plus years I would need to conclusively identify to your satisfaction the person Reid spoke with (if anyone) to cast doubt on her identification of Oswald?  Is that the standard you apply to witnesses who ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene?  Are you going to identify to my satisfaction the name of the person that those witnesses saw to create doubt that it was Oswald?  Of course not.  Again, it is remarkable that you are quibbling over there being doubt in this instance in which there are grounds for doubt while applying an impossible standard of witness identification in the Tippit situation to create false doubt.  It's mind blowing in its misapplication of logic and inability to recognize the fallacies of that approach.  It would be like criticizing someone for characterizing a hundred degree day as being hot after repeatedly arguing that a 10 degree day was a sizzler. 
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 08:29:55 PM
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Hosty wrote:..." (11/20 ) day before yesterday, Mr Truly had rifle and two others , first floor outside offices "
Fritz wrote:....".Doesn't own rifle, saw at building"

What part do you believe I made up?

The "two other rifles" part.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
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The "two other rifles" part.

Nope...What does  "Rifle, and two others "......mean?..... Or "Mr Truly had rifle and two others".....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 28, 2019, 08:48:43 PM
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Do you believe there is reasonable doubt that the person Reid encountered was Oswald or not?  Yes or no.  It's a simple question that I thought you had already answered in the affirmative.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.  That after 50 plus years I would need to conclusively identify to your satisfaction the person Reid spoke with (if anyone) to cast doubt on her identification of Oswald?  Is that the standard you apply to witnesses who ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene?  Are you going to identify to my satisfaction the name of the person that those witnesses saw to create doubt that it was Oswald?  Of course not.  Again, it is remarkable that you are quibbling over there being doubt in this instance in which there are grounds for doubt while applying an impossible standard of witness identification in the Tippit situation to create false doubt.  It's mind blowing in its misapplication of logic and inability to recognize the fallacies of that approach.  It would be like criticizing someone for characterizing a hundred degree day as being hot after repeatedly arguing that a 10 degree day was a sizzler.

So many words and nothing of any real value?..

Do you believe there is reasonable doubt that the person Reid encountered was Oswald or not?  Yes or no.  It's a simple question that I thought you had already answered in the affirmative.

Which only shows just how little you understand. There is no reasonable doubt to conclude that Reid did not see Oswald as he was leaving the building. The possibility that somebody may have told Reid about the lunchroom encounter, only seconds earlier, does not create reasonable doubt by itself. It would merely have explained to Reid where Oswald was coming from and how he came to be where she met him. There is in fact nothing reasonable about assuming that Reid may have lied about who she saw simply because somebody told her about what happened in the lunchroom. The mere fact that Oswald was in the lunchroom and was later seen by a reporter walking out the frontdoor after showing the man where the telephone was makes it nearly impossible to conclude anything else than that Oswald must have passed by the location where Reid said she was when she saw him. Even more so since you are unable to name anybody else who could have been there and also can not explain where Oswald went after the lunchroom encounter.

But, by all means, argue that Reid did not see Oswald pass by, as the consequence of that would automatically be that he didn't leave the building through the front door, withing three minutes after the shooting, which in turn may mean that Buell Frazier was correct when he said that he saw Oswald walking down Houston, coming from the loading dock area, towards Elm street some time after the shooting. That, of course, in turn destroys the entire bus/taxi saga.....

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.  That after 50 plus years I would need to conclusively identify to your satisfaction the person Reid spoke with (if anyone) to cast doubt on her identification of Oswald?  Is that the standard you apply to witnesses who ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene?   

Oh boy, you don't even understand that there is a difference between a public street and a closed office building, do you now? Where anybody could have been at 10th/Patton when Tippit was shot, only a few people could have had access to the office space where Reid worked. So, where it is nearly impossible to name an individual on the street, it should be possible to determine who else could have been in that office space if it wasn't Oswald.

Again, it is remarkable that you are quibbling over there being doubt in this instance in which there are grounds for doubt while applying an impossible standard of witness identification in the Tippit situation to create false doubt.

Let's turn this nonsense around, shall we... In this particular instance, you use a non verbatim FBI report about an alleged conversation as sufficient grounds for reasonable doubt, but you completely ignore and dismiss all those other instances where far more compelling evidence than just an internal FBI report would more than justify reasonable doubt. Why is that?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 09:01:19 PM
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Nope...What does  "Rifle, and two others "......mean?..... Or "Mr Truly had rifle and two others".....

Alan already showed you.

"Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at."
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2019, 09:55:06 PM
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So many words and nothing of any real value?..

Do you believe there is reasonable doubt that the person Reid encountered was Oswald or not?  Yes or no.  It's a simple question that I thought you had already answered in the affirmative.

Which only shows just how little you understand. There is no reasonable doubt to conclude that Reid did not encounter Oswald as he was leaving the building. The possibility that somebody may have told Reid about the lunchroom encounter does, by itself, not create reasonable doubt. There is in fact nothing reasonable about assuming that Reid may have lied about who she saw simply because somebody told her about what happened in the lunchroom. There mere fact that Oswald was in the lunchroom and was later seen by a reporter walking out the frontdoor after showing the man where the telephone was makes it nearly impossible to conclude anything else than that Oswald must have passed by the location where Reid said she was when she saw him.

But, be all means, argue that Reid did not see Oswald pass by, as the consequence of that would automatically be that he didn't leave the building through the front door, withing three minutes after the shooting, which in turn may mean that Buell Frazier was correct when he said that he saw Oswald walking down Houston, coming from the loading dock area, towards Elm street some time after the shooting. That, of course, in turn destroys the entire bus/taxi saga.....

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.  That after 50 plus years I would need to conclusively identify to your satisfaction the person Reid spoke with (if anyone) to cast doubt on her identification of Oswald?  Is that the standard you apply to witnesses who ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene?   

Oh boy, you don't even understand that there is a difference between a public street and a closed office building, do you now? Where anybody could have been at 10th/Patton when Tippit was shot, only a few people could have had access to the office space where Reid worked. So, where it is nearly impossible to name an individual on the street, it should be possible to determine who else could have been in that office space if it wasn't Oswald.

Once again! Mrs Geneva L. Hine's testimony makes a nonsense of Mrs R. A. Reid's story!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 28, 2019, 10:00:30 PM
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Once again! Mrs Geneva L. Hine's testimony makes a nonsense of Mrs R. A. Reid's story!  Thumb1:

Does not.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 10:12:56 PM
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Alan already showed you.

"Oswald stated that he did not own any rifle. He advised that he saw a rifle day before yesterday at the Texas School Book Depository which Mr. truly and two other gentlemen had in their possession and were looking at."

Yes this was AFTER they realized they had a BIG F--ing  problem.....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2019, 11:09:56 PM
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Yes this was AFTER they realized they had a BIG F--ing  problem.....

... but Bookhout's report was written first.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 01, 2019, 12:14:40 AM
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... but Bookhout's report was written first.
Really?, .... Bookhout wrote his report before they scribbled the notes?......  Really?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2019, 12:21:09 AM
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Really?, .... Bookhout wrote his report before they scribbled the notes?......  Really?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 01, 2019, 12:51:11 AM
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Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.

This is from the Gospel truth Warren Commission....Right?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2019, 04:27:17 AM
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This is from the Gospel truth Warren Commission....Right?

...and your fabrication is more credible because...?
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 02, 2019, 12:59:14 AM
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...and your fabrication is more credible because...?

I can READ the scribbled notes....
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Richard Smith on March 02, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
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So many words and nothing of any real value?..

Do you believe there is reasonable doubt that the person Reid encountered was Oswald or not?  Yes or no.  It's a simple question that I thought you had already answered in the affirmative.

Which only shows just how little you understand. There is no reasonable doubt to conclude that Reid did not see Oswald as he was leaving the building. The possibility that somebody may have told Reid about the lunchroom encounter, only seconds earlier, does not create reasonable doubt by itself. It would merely have explained to Reid where Oswald was coming from and how he came to be where she met him. There is in fact nothing reasonable about assuming that Reid may have lied about who she saw simply because somebody told her about what happened in the lunchroom. The mere fact that Oswald was in the lunchroom and was later seen by a reporter walking out the frontdoor after showing the man where the telephone was makes it nearly impossible to conclude anything else than that Oswald must have passed by the location where Reid said she was when she saw him. Even more so since you are unable to name anybody else who could have been there and also can not explain where Oswald went after the lunchroom encounter.

But, by all means, argue that Reid did not see Oswald pass by, as the consequence of that would automatically be that he didn't leave the building through the front door, withing three minutes after the shooting, which in turn may mean that Buell Frazier was correct when he said that he saw Oswald walking down Houston, coming from the loading dock area, towards Elm street some time after the shooting. That, of course, in turn destroys the entire bus/taxi saga.....

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.  That after 50 plus years I would need to conclusively identify to your satisfaction the person Reid spoke with (if anyone) to cast doubt on her identification of Oswald?  Is that the standard you apply to witnesses who ID'd Oswald at the Tippit scene?   

Oh boy, you don't even understand that there is a difference between a public street and a closed office building, do you now? Where anybody could have been at 10th/Patton when Tippit was shot, only a few people could have had access to the office space where Reid worked. So, where it is nearly impossible to name an individual on the street, it should be possible to determine who else could have been in that office space if it wasn't Oswald.

Again, it is remarkable that you are quibbling over there being doubt in this instance in which there are grounds for doubt while applying an impossible standard of witness identification in the Tippit situation to create false doubt.

Let's turn this nonsense around, shall we... In this particular instance, you use a non verbatim FBI report about an alleged conversation as sufficient grounds for reasonable doubt, but you completely ignore and dismiss all those other instances where far more compelling evidence than just an internal FBI report would more than justify reasonable doubt. Why is that?

Capt. Contrarian of all people suddenly disputing that there is no reasonable doubt of a witness identification in this case is truly mind blowing!  In this instance there is one witness.  She indicates that she barely knew Oswald, was made aware of his presence on her floor from another source, and then misidentifies the way he was seen dressed by others moments before her encounter.  Do you believe Oswald yanked off his work shirt after leaving the lunchroom but before encountering Reid and then put it back on?  And this reporter who allegedly ID'd Oswald is no more persuasive.  He encountered someone he didn't know and later thought it might have been Oswald.  Big deal.  Not a story you would accept in a million years if it lended itself to Oswald's guilt.  Makes a good story for a reporter.  But in the Tippit situation, there are multiple witnesses who place Oswald at the scene and you nitpick their every word to avoid accepting the obvious conclusion.  Very silly but highlights the bias and hypocrisy of your bizarre analysis.
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Alan Ford on March 02, 2019, 04:31:02 PM
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Capt. Contrarian of all people suddenly disputing that there is no reasonable doubt of a witness identification in this case is truly mind blowing!  In this instance there is one witness.  She indicates that she barely knew Oswald, was made aware of his presence on her floor from another source, and then misidentifies the way he was seen dressed by others moments before her encounter.  Do you believe Oswald yanked off his work shirt after leaving the lunchroom but before encountering Reid and then put it back on?

Mr Smith makes some fair points here!  ???

Now! Ms G Hine did know Mr Oswald, and disliked him on account of his rude demeanor.

Yet she didn't notice him, or Mrs Reid, in the office just after the shooting. And she was desperate for information as to what had happened outside. The idea that her and Mrs Reid's paths wouldn't have crossed, and that she wouldn't have pumped Mrs Reid for information, is laughable!

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir


She doesn't want to outright call Mrs Reid a liar, but...  :D
Title: Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 02, 2019, 05:33:09 PM
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Capt. Contrarian of all people suddenly disputing that there is no reasonable doubt of a witness identification in this case is truly mind blowing!  In this instance there is one witness.  She indicates that she barely knew Oswald, was made aware of his presence on her floor from another source, and then misidentifies the way he was seen dressed by others moments before her encounter.  Do you believe Oswald yanked off his work shirt after leaving the lunchroom but before encountering Reid and then put it back on?  And this reporter who allegedly ID'd Oswald is no more persuasive.  He encountered someone he didn't know and later thought it might have been Oswald.  Big deal.  Not a story you would accept in a million years if it lended itself to Oswald's guilt.  Makes a good story for a reporter.  But in the Tippit situation, there are multiple witnesses who place Oswald at the scene and you nitpick their every word to avoid accepting the obvious conclusion.  Very silly but highlights the bias and hypocrisy of your bizarre analysis.

As per usual, Richard can not answer any of the questions I asked. How typical!

In this instance there is one witness.  She indicates that she barely knew Oswald, was made aware of his presence on her floor from another source, and then misidentifies the way he was seen dressed by others moments before her encounter.

So now, suddenly, it's somehow a fact that she was made aware of his presence on that floor by somebody else, which caused he to make up a story, and that she misidentified the man or at least the way he was dressed? So much BS from the same guy who sees no reasonable doubt when Earlene Roberts, not only also only one witness, but one who was known for making up stories, claims Oswald put on a jacket as he left the roominghouse, when she said she was paying more attention to the television (and thus must have had her back turned to him as he walked through the room) and only saw Oswald for a second or so.

The double standard is mindboggling!

Do you believe Oswald yanked off his work shirt after leaving the lunchroom but before encountering Reid and then put it back on?

That's what this is really about, isn't it? You can't explain Reid seeing a white T shirt and so she must be wrong or lying. It's merely a way for you to dismiss inconvenient evidence. Never mind that you can not identify anybody else who could have been there and you also can't explain how Oswald could have left the building, within 3 minutes after the shooting, through the front door, as the WC claimed, if he had not walked through the office space where Reid said she was.

And this reporter who allegedly ID'd Oswald is no more persuasive.  He encountered someone he didn't know and later thought it might have been Oswald.  Big deal.

I agree, he could have misidentified Oswald. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the WC claimed that Oswald left the building through the front door within 3 minutes. If Reid and the reporter did in fact see somebody else, then where did Oswald go after the lunchroom encounter? Or was there even a lunchroom encounter at all? Didn't Baker first claim he had seen somebody on the 3rd floor?

Richard seems to be on a quest to singlehandedly destroy the WC narrative.... Brilliant!  Thumb1:

Not a story you would accept in a million years if it lended itself to Oswald's guilt.

I am not interested in Oswald's guilt or innocence. The man is dead. My only interest is to find out what really happened. But it seems there is just no pleasing you. I see no reason not to believe Reid's account and get attacked f