JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on June 25, 2018, 03:52:37 PM
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Was Oswald really a wife beater?
The Warren Commission's Report...the press....Posner...Bugliosi...and all the WC apologists [I call them gumbas now]..will voice in unison..of course he was.
The cowardly cad beat Marina whenever he got the notion.
Just ask anybody.
The Warren Commission attorneys [in their zeal to blast Oswald 'the madman'] paraded in- all the Russian community friends of the Oswalds they could find with one goal in mind...to show that Oswald was a dangerous and violent person...that he pounded Marina black and blue whenever he entered one of his rageous fits.
However there is a twist to these accounts that most of the general public has never heard. The general timing of the witness description of a bruised Mrs Oswald seems to reveal they were all chronicling the same event.
We know that she tearfully sobbed before the Commission.. [shamefully] reporting the battering that she had to endure.
Lee Harvey Oswald seems like the kind of guy that I wouldn't ever want to hang out with, but I don't believe these spousal thrashing accounts one bit.
The recollection of Paul Gregory----- Lee?s refusal to let Marina learn English. He argued that it would jeopardize his fluency in Russian, but more important, it was a way he leveraged control over her. During one visit to a Rexall drugstore that August, Lee became visibly angry when a pharmacist offered to hire Marina, who had worked at a hospital pharmacy in Minsk, once her language skills improved. The job, after all, could have made her the family breadwinner. That rage would resurface later that month as we exited the duplex one evening. Marina took a step backward and fell, thumping her head on the hard, dry ground and dropping June. The thud was so loud that I feared she might be seriously injured; Lee, however, screamed at her for her clumsiness as she lay curled on the ground clutching for her baby. Even after he realized June was fine, he didn?t speak to Marina for the rest of the night.---
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/lee-harvey-oswald-was-my-friend.html?mcubz=0
August and through September is when the Russian community people recalled the buising.
These incidences were compiled by Sandy Larsen at the education forum...based from their testimony before the Warren Commission
Elena Hall
Date: July 1962 (Estimate according to Mrs. Hall)
Location: Oswald' apartment.
Mrs Hall: "black and blue over half of her face"
Note: Bouhe took Marina to Elena's house. The date must be wrong because Bouhe testified that he first saw the bruise when the group went to visit Marina. That was at the end of August.
White Russian Group Visits Marina
Date: Late August 1962
Location: Oswald apartment.
Mr. Bouhe: "black eye"
Mrs. Meller: "terrible blue spot over her eye." "Under her eye was blue and over here [pointing].")
Marina tells Bouhe that Lee hit her. Probably too embarrassed to tell what really happened. Oswald was a loser and most likely, the marriage was headed for the rocks...but even in her own testimony, Marina told the commission that Lee wasn't really violent
Marina tells Mrs. Meller that she bumped into door when feeding baby at night. (Mrs. Meller)
Lee wasn't present. (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)
The Oswalds Attend a Luncheon Party
Late August 1962 (Mrs. Ford)
At the Meller home. (Mrs. Ford, Mr. Ford)
Mrs. Ford: "bruises on her face"
Mr. Ford: "[bruises] on her face"
Marina says she bumped into door when feeding baby at night. (Mrs. Ford)
Note: The Fords met the Oswalds after the luncheon. (Mrs. Ford)
Marina Moves in with Elena Hall
October 1962 (Elena Hall, John R. Hall, Max E. Clark)
Marina tells Elena that Lee hit had her back when she and Elena first met. (Elena Hall)
Marina Leaves Lee and Moves in with the Mellers
Early November 1962
Marina ran to gas station and called Mellers. Then stayed at Meller's house. (Mrs. Meller)
Bouhe lied, claiming black eye. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
George de Mohrenschildt lied, claiming he took Marina to Meller's. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
Marina said Lee beating her. (Bouhe, Mrs. Meller)
Stayed for 5 days. (Mrs. Meller)
Marina Moves in with the Fords
November 11-18, 1962 (WC Counsel)
Marina said Lee beating her. (Mrs. Ford)
Stayed for about a week. (Mrs. Meller)
Marina Moves in with Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray
Late November 1962 (Mrs. Meller)
Stays just for dinner. Not overnight. (Mrs. Ford)
Lee begs her to come home. She agrees. (Mrs. Ford)
Marina Goes Back to Lee
Late November 1962 (Mrs. Ford)
The only witness that seemed to be around when Oswald allegedly hit her was Marina. [An exception will be forthcoming]
From the testimony of Marguerite Oswald....
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything about it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked.
"Mama-Lee." Just like that. So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by striking Marina?"
He said, "Mother, that is our affair."
And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further.
Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see the black eye. I know that he hit her. and gave her a black eye. Marina said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I don't know.
But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we say in our American way of life.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time.
The time of this encounter was not revealed but the indication was that baby daughter June was present.
[August 10, 1962: The Oswalds move to 2703 Mercedes St. in Fort Worth]
Also, Oswald did not really tell his mother that he hit Marina.
Alexander Kleinlerer had signed an affidavit in June 1964.
This statement seems very much like something that was just typed up for him and then he signed it.
In it he supposedly claims that he was 'scared' of Oswald.
That Oswald 'frightened him'.
That he 'was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset'.
It upset him 'when Oswald would say things against the United States.' He 'did not argue with Oswald' because he [Lee] 'appeared to him to be dangerous in his mind and he [AK] was frightened'.
Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.
He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to her in our [w/Elena Hall] presence.
Mrs. Hall often complained to me that Marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would not do anything around the house to help. I observed on many occasions that Marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly.
Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt.
Based on statements like this, I just have to wonder why all these people ever hung out together. Something seems fishy about that whole episode. Afraid of a mousey Oswald? Robert Oswald testified that Marina told him that she threw Lee in the bathroom and locked the door on him and hapless Lee sulked there all day. [How do you lock the bathroom door from the outside anyway?]
Recall the statements of Paul Gregory ...Marina fell and hit her head while holding the baby and though June wasn't hurt, Oswald still chastised Marina, but he didn't strike her.
Oswald had worked at the Leslie Welding Co. Alex seemed to know more about the particulars of his leaving employment there more than Oswald's own boss [TOMMY BARGAS] did.
Bargas testimony....
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of anybody employed at the plant with whom Oswald did or might have associated after work hours or on weekends?
Mr. BARGAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you observed, during the days of employment, he kept pretty much to himself anyhow?
Mr. BARGAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything with respect to his temperament--was he quick tempered, was there any incident that occurred that would give you a basis for an opinion?
Mr. BARGAS. No.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he work there, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th, 1962?
Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th?
Mr. BARGAS. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated?
Mr. BARGAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment?
Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours.
Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time?
Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day?
Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing."
In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say.
Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to.
If anyone knew about Lee physically battering Marina would it not have been Ruth Paine?
I couldn't find any such statements in her testimony.
Mr Paine stated..that Oswald had slapped Marina around......verbally.
Mr. LIEBELER - What else did you and Oswald speak about during this evening, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap her down verbally, and not let her express them or say--Ruth told me later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything."
When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know--the questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said about that.
Mr. DULLES - Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their discussion about Russia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering on what kind of points he slapped her down.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER - That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?
Mr. PAINE - That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't consider at the time that you were considering Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct.
Notice that Dulles had made it a point to reuse that word...'slapping' [let's get that one in the record]
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So you consider Oliver Stone a lone gunman Warren Commission report defender because that is in the JFK movie as well? :D
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Oswald was a classic abuser. Fits like a glove.
She goes on National Television to proclaim his innocence (do you believe her?)
She then claims he was an abuser (do you believe her ?)
MOP-Lee had been accused of killing the President. I had been testified for the Warren Commission. Their conclusions were that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the crime. I was there to probably give the most damaging testimony about Lee Harvey Oswald and whatever hate you have over him, I cannot make him an angel with a good character. As a wife, I still say he wasn?t a very pleasant person to be with and I?m the same way. We?re both stubborn and whatever.
OW- Was he abusive to you, Marina?
MOP Yes, he was.
OW-Like, he hit you physically?
MOP-Yes, but now slowly but surely a different kind of picture of Lee in the public?s eye appears, as the most hated man, a man who committed a horrible crime of the century, but at the same time as people learn to hate him more I discovered a different Lee that I did not know. I did not know about his childhood and his true underlying character whatever it was. That?s the role he played. But that doesn?t make him better. But guilty of the crime against Kennedy? He is not.
OW-You do not believe your husband killed John F. Kennedy?
MOP-No ? and it?s not an overnight conclusion and it?s not because I read books, and this book and that book. It?s the responsible statement to make in front of the country that I?m grateful to ? and when I did say that I think Lee killed President Kennedy.
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Even the original post sort of turns logic on its ear. All these people witnessed Oswald's violence to his wife. "Oh, it only happened that one time". :(
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Oswald was a classic abuser. Fits like a glove.
She goes on National Television to proclaim his innocence (do you believe her?)
Just reads the title of the thread and nothing further and immediately starts typing a post.
Do I believer her which time?
Mr. RANKIN. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed President Kennedy, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many......
....Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.......
Mr. RANKIN. You will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that. You must understand that now I only speak the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill President Kennedy.
Mrs. OSWALD. I now have enough facts to say that.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little more..........
........Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked you, but I would like to ask it again.
I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy.
Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes..........
.........Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to get into history. .......
...........Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald ...He denied shooting President Kennedy. And he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him holding the rifle and the holster.
Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Representative Ford. That is all.
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All these people witnessed Oswald's violence to his wife.
Another who did not read the post.
Go back and read it.
No one saw Lee hit his wife.
Mrs. PAINE - No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.
Mr. LIEBELER - That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?
Mr. PAINE - That is right.
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Just reads the title of the thread and nothing further and immediately starts typing a post.
Do I believer her which time?
Stop being a wise prick.
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Stop being a wise prick.
So ....you are here to insult. Trolling and name calling is a violation of the forum rules.
If you don't like the topic then don't read it anymore.
No one has a gun to your head.
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So ....you are here to insult. Trolling and name calling is a violation of the forum rules.
If you don't like the topic then don't read it anymore.
No one has a gun to your head.
I spent several years working with victims of domestic abuse (no surprise that it is predominantly women who are the victim) and one of the interesting observations was that many men (almost always the perpetrator and often other male witnesses) would think it OK to belt a woman as though it was good for them.
When I see men on the internet defending the likes of wife beater LHO I wonder how they can dismiss or or even defend his behaviour.
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I spent several years working with victims of domestic abuse (no surprise that it is predominantly women who are the victim) and one of the interesting observations was that many men (almost always the perpetrator and often other male witnesses) would think it OK to belt a woman as though it was good for them.
When I see men on the internet defending the likes of wife beater LHO I wonder how they can dismiss or or even defend his behaviour.
CTers deny he beat her. I guess Marina was lying. Then they claim that no one actually saw Oswald beat her. Well, whoopee.. how many husbands would beat their wives in front of witnesses? The Oswalds were guests of the Paines FFS, so of course he would behave. These dummies can't seem to reason beyond the level of a 5 year old. Ruth said Oswald was polite and seemed grateful for the Paines taking them in. Does anyone think he would openly beat his wife given the circumstances re the Paines?
BTW, Dirty Harvey wouldn't even had to touch her to threaten her: just the threat of violence accompanied by the resulting emotional stress would give Marina pause about keeping this creep around.
And in case any of you are actually pushing your spouse around, keep in mind that in Tort law, even seriously shaking your fist at the intended victim can be considered as assault if you are deemed to be capable of having the resources to apply physical harm to that person.
This little creep slept in his mother's bed until age 11, and she said she bathed him until he 'got too big down there'. And these brainiacs claim he was normal. Wow.
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...interesting observations was that many men would think it OK to belt a woman as though it was good for them.
Maybe in the 1950's the cops didn't intervene in spousal behavior ...but today it's 911 and the cops are there in 4 minutes.
Why after the posting of all the counter claims do you believe Oswald beat his wife?
So far everybody just seems to have a feeling that he did.
Is that how we base truth?
How would you like to be sent to prison based on hearsay evidence?
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They deny he beat her.
This little creep slept in his mother's bed until age 11, and she said she bathed him until he 'got too big down there'. And these brainiacs claim he was normal. Wow.
Source on that ?
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Source on that ?
Why do you even ask? If you're shown the source you'll say it was a lie. There's no point in debating domestic abuse with someone who is determined to excuse an abuser.
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Source on that ?
His mother
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His mother
His mother told you? OK
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Maybe in the 1950's the cops didn't intervene in spousal behavior ...but today it's 911 and the cops are there in 4 minutes.
Why after the posting of all the counter claims do you believe Oswald beat his wife?
So far everybody just seems to have a feeling that he did.
Is that how we base truth?
How would you like to be sent to prison based on hearsay evidence?
Yeah poor old Lee, that bloody Marina kept attacking his fists with her face.
JohnM
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CTers deny he beat her. I guess Marina was lying. Then they claim that no one actually saw Oswald beat her. Well, whoopee.. how many husbands would beat their wives in front of witnesses. They were guests of the Paines FFS, so of course he would behave. These dummies can't seem to reason beyond the level of a 5 year old.
This little creep slept in his mother's bed until age 11, and she said she bathed him until he 'got too big down there'. And these brainiacs claim he was normal. Wow.
Then they claim that no one actually saw Oswald beat her. Well, whoopee.. how many husbands would beat their wives in front of witnesses.
Exactly Bill, wife beaters are cowards and this was true of all of Oswald's interactions. Oswald could have just used his revolver and killed Kennedy up close but instead the coward hid in the shadows.
JohnM
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Why does such a young, pretty, smart girl appear to have a tooth or two that's been cracked in half?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/77knls9ff/Marina_crack_tooth.jpg)
(http://huwaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/domvi2.jpg)
JohnM
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Psychologically, Lee was off. One of his fellow marines was killed in the Philippines and there has been a question about that.
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I am not whether witnesses saw injuries on Marina If so, how many?
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Why does such a young, pretty, smart girl appear to have a tooth that's been cracked in half?
Are you saying that Oswald knocked them out?
Link on that claim...show some fortitude there.
The bad tooth problems originated in the USSR.
I know Russian girls and their teeth were not in good shape.
Lee and Robert invited us in to meet Marina, who was slender, almost fragile, with a natural beauty. (Lee was one of several suitors back in Minsk.) She smiled rarely, if at all ? a typical victim of Soviet dentistry, she was ashamed of her teeth.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/lee-harvey-oswald-was-my-friend.html
The State of Marina Oswald?s Teeth
Marina Oswald was treated at Baylor University College of Dentistry on 8, 10 and 15 October 1962. According to one of the dentists who gave her treatment, ?her teeth were in very poor condition. She had many cavities and needed much dental attention?. Three teeth were extracted. For the results of the FBI investigation into this important topic, see Commission Exhibit 1403 (Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, vol.22, pp.770?772.
The treatment was organised by members of the Russian ?migr? community in the Dallas area. George Bouhe describes paying for the treatment, and said that ?she had a lot of teeth rotted to the roots? (WCHE, vol.8, p.373).
Marina Oswald was accompanied on her trips to the dentist by George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt, who were given the job of supervising the Oswalds on their arrival in the United States before passing them on to Ruth Paine. In chapter two of his memoir, I?m a Patsy! I?m a Patsy!, George de Mohrenschildt mentions in passing Marina?s ?bad teeth?. In chapter four, he mentions the dental treatment at Baylor, and claims that four teeth were extracted.
It is not unlikely that Marina Porter, as she became in 1965, has visited the dentist in the five decades since the JFK assassination. She may have had further treatment, perhaps including fillings, and possibly extractions. She may even have had her teeth cleaned.
Scandalously, records of any treatment since 1962 do not appear to have been placed in the public domain. Over the years, researchers have made use of the Freedom of Information Act to release many important documents, such as the results of the neutron activation analysis of Lee Oswald?s paraffin casts. Those interested in the state of President Kennedy?s alleged assassin?s wife?s teeth should use the might of the Act to set this essential information free.
http://22november1963.org.uk/did-marina-oswald-have-bad-teeth
Testimony of George Bouhe.....
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the economic system of the U.S.S.R.?
Mr. BOUHE - I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - And how did you know he was stuck on it?
Mr. BOUHE - He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, "Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether it is free rent or free medical care.
For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know.
wife beaters are cowards
I never would expect you to get the point of this thread.
It is not about wife beating.
It is about using hearsay and innuendo to disparage, denigrate, & defame with unfounded accusations of violence.
I don't think the Warren Commission people cared if Oswald was really a spousal abuser as long as they could use it to hang his ghost.
Wife beaters are worse than cowards. The forum system would censor any words that I would try and use.
Wife beating becomes a habit...the habit becomes an addiction.
Why did the Paines not report such behavior?
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I never would expect you to get the point of this thread.
It is not about wife beating.
Could have fooled me. The thread title is:
Did Oswald really beat his wife?
BTW The innuendo and straight out lies and smears aimed at discrediting Marina, the Frazier's, the Paine's etc etc (even questioning the sexual orientation of Ruth Paine) has been going on for years yet it's unfair to talk about the character of the scumbag that murdered the Pres and a Dallas cop?
Cry me a river.
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This was talked about in the old forum, I did read post #1 in full. Wasn't there something like a complaint, a call to the police or something like that concerning this matter? I thought so.
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Are you saying that Oswald knocked them out?
Link on that claim...show some fortitude there.
The bad tooth problems originated in the USSR.
I know Russian girls and their teeth were not in good shape.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/lee-harvey-oswald-was-my-friend.html
http://22november1963.org.uk/did-marina-oswald-have-bad-teeth
Testimony of George Bouhe..... I never would expect you to get the point of this thread.
It is not about wife beating.
It is about using hearsay and innuendo to disparage, denigrate, & defame with unfounded accusations of violence.
I don't think the Warren Commission people cared if Oswald was really a spousal abuser as long as they could use it to hang his ghost.
Wife beaters are worse than cowards. The forum system would censor any words that I would try and use.
Wife beating becomes a habit...the habit becomes an addiction.
Why did the Paines not report such behavior?
Are you saying that Oswald knocked them out?
No, but funny that you jumped to that conclusion.
Link on that claim...show some fortitude there.
What claim?
The State of Marina Oswald?s Teeth
All the links in your article came from the Warren report. Oops!
The parrots riding the Warren Report Express.....
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
Why did the Paines not report such behavior?
So now the Paines weren't involved, will you Kooks please make up your minds!
JohnM
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His mother told you? OK
Ah, another CT buff avoiding inconvenient facts.
It seems Mommy Dearest smothered CT mancrush Dirty Harvey a little too up close & personal by letting him sleep in her bed until age 11 or so; and embarrassingly mentioned in her interview with a Youth Center psychologist that she bathed all 3 kids until 11-12, until they were 'too old to look at'
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Oswald was a violent scumbag, as these following incidences show
Read this:
New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/21/books/the-most-durable-assassination-theory-oswald-did-it-alone.html
Geoffrey Ward 1993
Excerpt
(...)
Too erratic to hold a job for long, consumed by self-pity, blaming others always for her problems, Marguerite Oswald dragged her son from city to city (21 moves in 17 years), school to school (a dozen in all), setting the erratic course he would follow throughout his short, wretched life. Oswald was a friendless, belligerent little boy. He frequently punched and once tried to stab his mother (in whose bed he often slept until he was nearly 11); he hurled one knife at his half brother and threatened a sister-in-law with another, fought with his schoolmates, disrupted classes and stayed away from school so often he was finally remanded at 13 to Youth House in Manhattan for a psychiatric examination. "I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness," the psychiatrist recalled when he testified before the Warren Commission, "a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out." Asked whether he preferred the company of boys or girls, Oswald told the psychiatrist, "I dislike everybody."
He dropped out of school altogether at 16 because, he said, it could teach him nothing, and buried himself in books on Marxism instead, persuading himself that all the unhappiness and disappointment that continued to corrode his life was somehow being caused by capitalism. At 17, he joined the Marines to get away from his mother, but he was unable ever to shake the sense of perpetual grievance with which she had imbued him, or his anger at a world that stubbornly refused to grant him the recognition she had taught him should be his.
Not surprisingly, the military did not suit him. Cold, sarcastic, withdrawn, he was taunted as "Ozzie Rabbit" and "Mrs. Oswald" by his fellow marines, and was court-martialed and found guilty twice, first for shooting himself in the arm with a .22 pistol he was unauthorized to carry and again for pouring a drink over the head of a sergeant who had dared assign him to K.P. duty. He subsequently suffered an apparent breakdown, weeping and firing shots into the night while on guard duty. After that he was called "Bugs."
----------------------------------------------------
Fort Worth knew Kennedy assassin Lee Oswald
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/fort-worth-knew-kennedy...
Fort Worth knew Kennedy assassin Lee Oswald before anyone ... He slept in his mother?s bed until age 10. ... Oswald?s mother and her family moved almost ...
Take a look at the above article and learn something about what a violent little prick Oswald was in his youth, remembered as such from schoolmates in Fort Worth.
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Thanks for the links Bill. Good information to have. I found though that the second link (The Seattle Times) didn't work. I searched by the heading and found the correct link:
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/fort-worth-knew-kennedy-assassin-before-anyone-else/
BTW I had to close my ad blocker to access the page.
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All this psychological mumbo jumbo is proof that Oswald killed Kennedy.
What a screwed up world.
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Imagine the counternarrative here. The conspirators didn't have enough on their hands framing Oswald for the assassination of the president and murder of a police officer. And then recruiting someone to kill Oswald and take the wrap. They had to go another step and frame him as a wife beater by getting his wife and others to lie about that. LOL. They were really piling it on poor old Lee.
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So ....you are here to insult. Trolling and name calling is a violation of the forum rules.
If you don't like the topic then don't read it anymore.
No one has a gun to your head.
Why did you post this thread? Are you here to educate us ? Did you want three pages of responses that agree with whatever point it is that you're attempting to make? Nope. You started a thread to provoke a negative response in order for you to , in your mind, show your superior debating skills against people that don't agree with whatever point it is you're trying to make. When you get a response, you whip out your little "pointer" and enlighten us with you're typical and elitist smug reply. Why don't you let Duncan decide what and who violates HIS rules instead of you screaming FIRE at the slightest whiff of smoke. Now you can go back to trolling the forum.
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In an abusive ongoing relationship the biggest liar is the one being abused.
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Marina Oswald was a liar as even the HSCA said this. She was caught lying in this exchange with Senator Russell of the WC. So why should we accept her claim of being hit one time?
Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you on many occasions?
Mrs. OSWALD. Rather?many.
Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only testified TO ONE, did you not, before the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was rather embarrassed to discuss this before the Commission, but he beat me on more than one occasion.
Senator RUSSELL. And you stated at that time that you bruise very readily and that?s the reason you had such a bad black eye? Did you not testify to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Senator RUSSELL. Was that true or not true?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is true?it is?whatever I said.
Senator RUSSELL. It is true that you bruise easily, but that was just one of many occasions he had beat you?
Mrs. OSWALD. On ONE occasion; yes. (emphasis added)
Marina was a young Russian girl in a foreign country... so, maybe she didn't have all of her statements correct, I"m sure the situation overwhelmed her... but on the other hand, you just said the other day, the HSCA said nothing about Oswald committing the crime. So, where does that leave your word?
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Marina was a young Russian girl in a foreign country... so, maybe she didn't have all of her statements correct, I"m sure the situation overwhelmed her
Even the Warren Commission lawyers knew she was lying....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=132&tab=page
She was forced to though.
To this very day she is convinced that the FBI taps her phone.
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Your avatar tells everyone what you are here for. It is to shut down real discussion.
Tell us how Oswald's backstory shuts down 'real discussion'
On the contrary, it reveals even more about how nasty the little spombleprofglidnoctobuns really was.
A little inconvenient for you, Rob?
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Marina Oswald was a liar as even the HSCA said this. She was caught lying in this exchange with Senator Russell of the WC. So why should we accept her claim of being hit one time?
Senator RUSSELL. Did he beat you on many occasions?
Mrs. OSWALD. Rather?many.
Senator RUSSELL. Well, you only testified TO ONE, did you not, before the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was rather embarrassed to discuss this before the Commission, but he beat me on more than one occasion.
Senator RUSSELL. And you stated at that time that you bruise very readily and that?s the reason you had such a bad black eye? Did you not testify to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Senator RUSSELL. Was that true or not true?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is true?it is?whatever I said.
Senator RUSSELL. It is true that you bruise easily, but that was just one of many occasions he had beat you?
Mrs. OSWALD. On ONE occasion; yes. (emphasis added)
Yes, one of the many occasions that he beat her
What exactly is your point?
Show us where the HSCA called Marina a liar.
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On top of Bill's fine post, in the end, about every human being has lied. It'd be difficult to find one who hasn't to be pinning Marina down on this. At least, I know I have. The situation must have dumbfounded her as well.
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Bruises as well. Are those lies?
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I have never seen any evidence that Oswald beat his wife: no police reports of officers responding to domestic violence, no doctor's or dentist's reports, nor hospital records. No photograph of a bruised, 'black and blue' Marina.
All there is is hearsay and Marina's own questionable stories.
And for some reason, Marina no longer believes her dead husband shot anybody, so again she has changed her story. Goodbye credibility.
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Rob Caprio said
Can you quote one person who saw her with a bruise on an area where she could have been hit by LHO?
Matt Grantham asked on page 3
I am not clear whether witnesses saw injuries on Marina If so, how many?
I think we are nearing the point where this question is answered by the lack of answers
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I have never seen any evidence that Oswald beat his wife: no police reports of officers responding to domestic violence, no doctor's or dentist's reports, nor hospital records. No photograph of a bruised, 'black and blue' Marina.
All there is is hearsay and Marina's own questionable stories.
And for some reason, Marina no longer believes her dead husband shot anybody, so again she has changed her story. Goodbye credibility.
She said conspiracy theories influenced her.
And her daughter June has said that she herself hasn't decided one way or the other, just wants conclusive proof either way.
Nobody wants to believe that their husband or father is a murderer.
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There was some sort of commotion over at the apartment building they lived at and some of the Russian exile community noted it also. So, it wasn't just Marina who said this.
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On top of Bill's fine post, in the end, about every human being has lied. It'd be difficult to find one who hasn't to be pinning Marina down on this. At least, I know I have. The situation must have dumbfounded her as well.
None of the investigative bodies were in the business of calling people liars. They were tasked with finding the facts of the case, not trying the case in a court of law.
Marina has stated that she held back somewhat, and also admitted to telling (what turned out to be temporary) falsehoods.
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LEE HARVEY'S OLDEST (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/june.htm)
JUNE OSWALD
As America's obsession with her father goes on, a daughter tries to set the record straight.
By Steve Salerno
From The New York Times Magazine
April 30, 1995.
"But you have to understand that, aside from what role he had in the assassination, there's the issue of what role he had in our family. I know that in my life, Lee wasn't a good man. He wasn't much of a husband, he wasn't much of a father. He beat my mother. There were times when we didn't have milk to drink. We lived in poor housing or were taken in by others. So if I'm able to be detached or seem cold and unemotional about it, it's because I look at Lee in those terms."
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From the WC TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm):
Mr. BOUHE - Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE - I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house.
Mr. LIEBELER - At Oswald's house?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where was that house located at that time?
Mr. BOUHE - On Mercedes Street.
Mr. LIEBELER - In Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Oswald there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE - No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or something.
Mr. LIEBELER - She didn't tell you the details though at that time?
Mr. BOUHE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From the WC TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gregory.htm):
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?
Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?
Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did you get the black eye.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From the WC Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm)
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe, started telling me that "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."
And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak Cliff, because, I didn't move them---it was my daughter who moved them, I think.
So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this."
Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a little later.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."
So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you."
And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him."
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From the WC Testimony Of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_j.htm):
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. We saw her with a black eye once.
Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other."
.....
Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right.
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Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe, started telling me that "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."
And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak Cliff, because, I didn't move them---it was my daughter who moved them, I think.
So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this."
Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a little later.
Does that make any sense?
They talked to someone that might not have been there... maybe he was there...not sure maybe not.
All in all the De Ms did not see Oswald beat Marina.
Also Mr Gregory testified that during that August-September period, Marina fell.
"She had cut her knee"
There was no statement that anyone was even concerned that she might be injured.
I think that was really crappy.
I believe the bruises was a result of the fall.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And. that was the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms?
Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do?
Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say?
Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out again, but it was a real hot moment.
A side note about some foreign brides [especially from the former Soviet Union]
It happens that a few of these marriages become a sham.
They will obtain their residence and then it's dosvidanya [goodbye]
They have learned from various sources to claim abuse as an out.
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A side note about some foreign brides [especially from the former Soviet Union]
It happens that a few of these marriages become a sham.
They will obtain their residence and then it's dosvidanya [goodbye]
They have learned from various sources to claim abuse as an out.
That is a text book example of an apologist for domestic violence. It might not be what you intended but that's a classic argument used by many wife beaters and their male supporters.
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That is a text book example of an apologist for domestic violence. It might not be what you intended but that's a classic argument used by many wife beaters and their male supporters.
Howsley .....is that your real name?
I think you've stalked me enough so cut the crap OK?
You wouldn't know the truth if it crawled out of your backside and kicked you in the head.
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Howsley .....is that your real name?
I think you've stalked me enough so cut the crap OK?
You wouldn't know the truth if it crawled out of your backside and kicked you in the head.
Get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. You created this thread so it's your baby but anyone including me has a right to post here. If any moderator considers my posts inappropriate then I guess I'll be hearing from them. So far I haven't heard a thing.
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.... anyone including me has a right to post here.
No one said you couldn't post here did they?
You can post. Did I say you couldn't post?
Stick to the subject and don't troll my every word.
I know exactly what I'm talking about.
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No one said you couldn't post here did they?
You can post. Did I say you couldn't post?
Stick to the subject and don't troll my every word.
I know exactly what I'm talking about.
You accused me of stalking you. The only place I read your stuff is in this thread so that's hardly stalking. You started this thread and named it
Did Oswald really beat his wife?
and then on the very first day you very defensively said to someone
It is not about wife beating.
which has to be one of the funniest things I've read here. I pointed that out to you and ever since you've been fuming. Too bad. The number of statements from people close to Oswald prepared to say he beat Marina is conclusive. Game over.
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Does that make any sense?
They talked to someone that might not have been there... maybe he was there...not sure maybe not..
It makes perfect sense. Try to think clearly. George simply didn't remember if Oswald was already there when they arrived, or came in later. Bottom line is that he spoke to Oswald that night.
"All in all the De Ms did not see Oswald beat Marina"
All in all no one saw any shooter in Dealey Plaza other than the one in the TSBD sn 6th floor window
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All in all no one saw any shooter in Dealey Plaza other than the one in the TSBD sn 6th floor window
Prove they saw a "shooter".
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Why did you post this thread? Are you here to educate us ? Did you want three pages of responses that agree with whatever point it is that you're attempting to make? Nope. You started a thread to provoke a negative response in order for you to , in your mind, show your superior debating skills against people that don't agree with whatever point it is you're trying to make. When you get a response, you whip out your little "pointer" and enlighten us with you're typical and elitist smug reply. Why don't you let Duncan decide what and who violates HIS rules instead of you screaming FIRE at the slightest whiff of smoke. Now you can go back to trolling the forum.
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif)
Stay on topic [no personal tizzing]
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JUNE OSWALD
As America's obsession with her father goes on, a daughter tries to set the record straight.
By Steve Salerno
From The New York Times Magazine
April 30, 1995.
"But you have to understand that, aside from what role he had in the assassination, there's the issue of what role he had in our family. I know that in my life, Lee wasn't a good man. He wasn't much of a husband, he wasn't much of a father. He beat my mother. There were times when we didn't have milk to drink. We lived in poor housing or were taken in by others. So if I'm able to be detached or seem cold and unemotional about it, it's because I look at Lee in those terms."
Again....hearsay ----became a legend---became a truth
June did not see her father [Oswald] beat her mother.
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That is a text book example of an apologist for domestic violence. It might not be what you intended but that's a classic argument used by many wife beaters and their male supporters.
Of course the present wave of political correctness finds its way here Have you checked out the amount of claims of women claiming to have been abused by NFL players only to claim weeks later that it wasn't true Who knows what the truth is in any of these stories but you seem to be suggesting a one way street that all claims of suspecting the woman's story can automatically dismissed as domestic violence apologists
On the other hand it likely Oswald did beatr Marina though I also find that seeming fact to have little bearing on the question of the JFK assassination
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(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif)
Stay on topic [no personal tizzing]
Oprah is on the cover-up team. Shhhhhh, keep it to yourself. Nutbag.
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Why did you post this thread?
Because I believe it is most likely that the government establishment run by Johnson-Hoover-Dulles and the CIA- Military cartel used the violent angle [no matter how remotely plausible] to convict Oswald of the assassination.
Are you here to educate us ?
I merely tried to inform. I now believe the concept of 'educating' has lapsed into an impossibility.
The Trolls have made the topic about me supporting, defending, condoning, excusing, justifying, vindicating, and even pardoning wife beating. Like old women, they are beyond educating.
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Because I believe it is most likely that the government establishment run by Johnson-Hoover-Dulles and the CIA- Military cartel used the violent angle [no matter how remotely plausible] to convict Oswald of the assassination.
I merely tried to inform. I now believe the concept of 'educating' has lapsed into an impossibility.
The Trolls have made the topic about me supporting, defending, condoning, excusing, justifying, vindicating, and even pardoning wife beating. Like old women, they are beyond educating.
That's not particularly nice to talk about older women like that. Just for sh**s and giggles, do you have any experience with domestic violence?
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Of course the present wave of political correctness finds its way here Have you checked out the amount of claims of women claiming to have been abused by NFL players only to claim weeks later that it wasn't true Who knows what the truth is in any of these stories but you seem to be suggesting a one way street that all claims of suspecting the woman's story can automatically dismissed as domestic violence apologists
On the other hand it likely Oswald did beatr Marina though I also find that seeming fact to have little bearing on the question of the JFK assassination
That's comparing today's litigious society with Texas of 55 years ago. The Oswald's owned a rifle, a gun, some rounds of ammunition and some odds and sods of stuff amounting to maybe fifty bucks. That's a lifetime away from sport and entertainment stars and their coveted wealth. Support networks for abused women in the 60s would have been pretty thin on the ground I'd imagine. An abused woman back then was just as likely told to try to be a better wife and not make her man so angry.
I think it is clear that Oswald did beat Marina and you agree that it's likely. That says something about his character and that is a factor that must be added to the mix.
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Howsley .....is that your real name?
I think you've stalked me enough so cut the crap OK?
You wouldn't know the truth if it crawled out of your backside and kicked you in the head.
It's just a diversion. You ask for evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy and you get accused of "defending a double-murderer". Ask for evidence that Oswald physically abused his wife and you get accused of being a "domestic abuse apologist".
Then you have Chapman trying to divert by saying that Oswald slept with his mother until age 10, like that has anything to do with wife abusing.
The problem is that righteous indignation does not constitute evidence.
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I spent several years working with victims of domestic abuse (no surprise that it is predominantly women who are the victim) and one of the interesting observations was that many men (almost always the perpetrator and often other male witnesses) would think it OK to belt a woman as though it was good for them.
When I see men on the internet defending the likes of wife beater LHO I wonder how they can dismiss or or even defend his behaviour.
Lee was not a "wife beater"..... Marina said that they did hit each other at times....But she provoked the fights. That's what she said.
You really have taken the Government's character assassination of Lee Oswald and twisted it so you can hate him just as they wanted you to do.
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It's just a diversion. You ask for evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy and you get accused of "defending a double-murderer". Ask for evidence that Oswald physically abused his wife and you get accused of being a "domestic abuse apologist".
Then you have Chapman trying to divert by saying that Oswald **slept with his mother until age 10, like that has anything to do with wife abusing.
The problem is that righteous indignation does not constitute evidence.
**I was wondering where that came from. Chapman said Marguerite. It did not come from the mother. It came from the testimony of John Pic.
......And then every wannabe biographer ever since ::)
Actually the testimony revealed that Pic and Robert [ being older] had to sleep on the sofa.
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It's just a diversion. You ask for evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy and you get accused of "defending a double-murderer". Ask for evidence that Oswald physically abused his wife and you get accused of being a "domestic abuse apologist".
Then you have Chapman trying to divert by saying that Oswald slept with his mother until age 10, like that has anything to do with wife abusing.
The problem is that righteous indignation does not constitute evidence.
Are you claiming that his mother's sicko treatment of him was not a factor in his later wife abuse?
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**I was wondering where that came from. Chapman said Marguerite. It did not come from the mother. It came from the testimony of John Pic.
......And then every wannabe biographer ever since ::)
Mr. JENNER - Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality?
Mr. PIC - I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, almost 11 years old.
Mr. JENNER - When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed?
Mr. PIC - In the same bed, sir.
Actually the testimony revealed that Pic and Robert [ being older] had to sleep on the sofa.
He said that he and Robert had to sleep on couches
Mr. JENNER - Describe that house.
Mr. PIC - It was an L--shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was--
JohnM
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Lee was not a "wife beater"..... Marina said that they did hit each other at times....But she provoked the fights. That's what she said.
You really have taken the Government's character assassination of Lee Oswald and twisted it so you can hate him just as they wanted you to do.
Why are you trying to deny that Oswald beat his wife, she said so and she at least had one bruise to prove it.
We have all been provoked and what separates us from wild animals is the ability to say NO, Oswald lacked this self control and liked to fight opponents where he had a clear advantage like beating a weaker woman or like a coward hiding in the shadows with C2766.
JohnM
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**I was wondering where that came from. Chapman said Marguerite. It did not come from the mother. It came from the testimony of John Pic.
......And then every wannabe biographer ever since ::)
Actually the testimony revealed that Pic and Robert [ being older] had to sleep on the sofa.
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on June 26, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
His mother told you? OK
>>> Actually his mother told his psychologist at Youth House
And are you calling John Pic a liar?
.....................................................................................
Post #25
Ah, another CT buff avoiding inconvenient facts.
It seems Mommy Dearest smothered CT mancrush Dirty Harvey a little too up close & personal by letting him sleep in her bed until age 11 or so; and embarrassingly mentioned in her interview with a Youth Center psychologist that she bathed all 3 kids until 11-12, until they were 'too old to look at'
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Oswald was a violent scumbag, as these following incidences show
Read this:
New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/21/books/the-most-durable-assassination-theory-oswald-did-it-alone.html
Geoffrey Ward 1993
Excerpt
(...)
Too erratic to hold a job for long, consumed by self-pity, blaming others always for her problems, Marguerite Oswald dragged her son from city to city (21 moves in 17 years), school to school (a dozen in all), setting the erratic course he would follow throughout his short, wretched life. Oswald was a friendless, belligerent little boy. He frequently punched and once tried to stab his mother (in whose bed he often slept until he was nearly 11); he hurled one knife at his half brother and threatened a sister-in-law with another, fought with his schoolmates, disrupted classes and stayed away from school so often he was finally remanded at 13 to Youth House in Manhattan for a psychiatric examination. "I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness," the psychiatrist recalled when he testified before the Warren Commission, "a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out." Asked whether he preferred the company of boys or girls, Oswald told the psychiatrist, "I dislike everybody."
He dropped out of school altogether at 16 because, he said, it could teach him nothing, and buried himself in books on Marxism instead, persuading himself that all the unhappiness and disappointment that continued to corrode his life was somehow being caused by capitalism. At 17, he joined the Marines to get away from his mother, but he was unable ever to shake the sense of perpetual grievance with which she had imbued him, or his anger at a world that stubbornly refused to grant him the recognition she had taught him should be his.
Not surprisingly, the military did not suit him. Cold, sarcastic, withdrawn, he was taunted as "Ozzie Rabbit" and "Mrs. Oswald" by his fellow marines, and was court-martialed and found guilty twice, first for shooting himself in the arm with a .22 pistol he was unauthorized to carry and again for pouring a drink over the head of a sergeant who had dared assign him to K.P. duty. He subsequently suffered an apparent breakdown, weeping and firing shots into the night while on guard duty. After that he was called "Bugs."
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Fort Worth knew Kennedy assassin Lee Oswald
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/fort-worth-knew-kennedy...
Fort Worth knew Kennedy assassin Lee Oswald before anyone ... He slept in his mother?s bed until age 10. ... Oswald?s mother and her family moved almost ...
Take a look at the above article and learn something about what a violent little prick Oswald was in his youth, remembered as such from schoolmates in Fort Worth.
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Why are you trying to deny that Oswald beat his wife, she said so and she at least had one bruise to prove it.
We have all been provoked and what separates us from wild animals is the ability to say NO, Oswald lacked this self control and liked to fight opponents where he had a clear advantage like beating a weaker woman or like a coward hiding in the shadows with C2766.
JohnM
Wow!...You're really desperate aren't you Mr Mytton? Lee did not "hide in the shadows"....He was in the first dloor lunchroom at the time the of the coup d e'tat......And I'd remind you that many soldiers have "hidden in the shadows" to attack a foe.... They certainly weren't cowards.
You need to back off and take a deep breath....you're desperation is making you into an even bigger fool.
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And are you calling John Pic a liar?
Where in hell did that come from??
Also ...try your own links before you post them.... to see if they work.
And stop that drinking...it's bad for you.
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Are you claiming that his mother's sicko treatment of him was not a factor in his later wife abuse?
What kind of loaded question is that? Have you stopped beating your wife?
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We have all been provoked and what separates us from wild animals is the ability to say NO, Oswald lacked this self control and liked to fight opponents where he had a clear advantage like beating a weaker woman
The "weaker woman" who locked him in the bathroom all day long with only her pregnant body.
or like a coward hiding in the shadows with C2766.
LOL
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If people would actually read through something instead of glancing at it.
That whole statement is impossible but believe it if you want to.
Leave it to Hess to pop in and quote testimony that somebody else already did 2 weeks ago in the same thread.
I'm surprised he didn't attach a "Fair Play For JFK" logo...
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What kind of loaded question is that? Have you stopped beating your wife?
I've never struck a woman in my life. None have struck me.
http://rhetthammersmithhorror.tumblr.com/post/55758088054/ape-76
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The "weaker woman" who locked him in the bathroom all day long with only her pregnant body.
LOL
Nah, just three minutes
Do you know why, Tricky?
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What kind of loaded question is that? Have you stopped beating your wife?
Answer the question
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I was asked if I knew anything about domestic violence.
--- 99.99% of the time when violent spousal incidents occur, it is preceded, accompanies or is followed by some sort of door slamming, screaming, yelling, name calling, dish throwing, furniture tossing or other some such forms of racket that neighbors would hear and complain about.
Were such occurrences ever testified to?
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I was asked if I knew anything about domestic violence.
--- 99.99% of the time when violent spousal incidents occur, it is preceded, accompanies or is followed by some sort of door slamming, screaming, yelling, name calling, dish throwing, furniture tossing or other some such forms of racket that neighbors would hear and complain about.
Were such occurrences ever testified to?
10. I distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances under which Marina left Mrs. Hall's and was taken by Oswald and George deMohrenschildt's daughter Alexandra and her husband Gary Taylor to Dallas to live. It was on a Sunday while Mrs. Hall was in New York. My recollection is that it was in the fore part of November on the Sunday preceeding the return of Mr. and Mrs. Hall from New York. On the preceeding Friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. It was Marina. She said that she was going to leave the Halls and go to Dallas to live with Oswald. At this point Oswald interrupted and spoke on the telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to move into Dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by the next day. I came by the Halls the next day, which was Saturday, in the morning. Marina and Oswald were there. I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../testimony/kleinler.htm
JohnM
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Answer the question
I'm not going to answer your loaded question.
Demonstrate the sleeping with one's mother until age 10 makes him a wife beater. Your judgmental ass obviously doesn't know what it's like to grow up in a poor family.
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I'm not going to answer your loaded question.
Demonstrate the sleeping with one's mother until age 10 makes him a wife beater. Your judgmental ass obviously doesn't know what it's like to grow up in a poor family.
LOL
Are you saying Mother Dearest was actually in the tub while bathing Dirty Harvey? They were saving water I suppose. I guess by her saying he was 'too big' by age 10-11 she meant for the tub, huh? The hits just keep on
"Demonstrate the sleeping with one's mother until age 10 makes him a wife beater."
STOP twisting and exaggerating what I said: I asked if sleeping with his mother might be a factor in his later wife-beating.
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Gee...I must not have read the first page of this thread.
That's OK here it is again. From the lead post...........................................
Alexander Kleinlerer had signed an affidavit in June 1964.
This statement seems very much like something that was just typed up for him and then he signed it.
In it he supposedly claims that he was 'scared' of Oswald.
That Oswald 'frightened him'.
That he 'was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset'.
It upset him 'when Oswald would say things against the United States.' He 'did not argue with Oswald' because he [Lee] 'appeared to him to be dangerous in his mind and he [AK] was frightened'.
Based on statements like this, I just have to wonder why all these people ever hung out together. Something seems fishy about that whole episode. Afraid of a mousey Oswald? Robert Oswald testified that Marina told him that she threw Lee in the bathroom and locked the door on him and hapless Lee sulked there all day. [How do you lock the bathroom door from the outside anyway?]
Recall the statements of Paul Gregory ...Marina fell and hit her head while holding the baby and though June wasn't hurt, Oswald still chastised Marina, but he didn't strike her.
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I asked if sleeping with his mother might be a factor in his later wife-beating
...follow the dots Sherlock.
OK Sigmund...
What Causes Domestic Violence?
What causes domestic violence to become the norm for an abuser? Most domestic abusers grew up witnessing domestic abuse and violence in their own homes. They learned to view physical and emotional violence as valid ways to vent anger and cope with their own internal fears and self-perception issues. The modeling they saw while growing up gets reinforced in these ways:
Using violence and abuse tactics worked to solve problems for them in the past
They have established tremendous control over others through abuse tactics
No one has stopped them or reported them to authorities
Common triggers that set off an abuser:
Disagreement with their intimate partner
Protracted periods of unemployment
Financial issues
Desperation when partner threatens to leave
Anger escalation
Humiliation stemming from problems at work or other perceived failures
Jealousy and envy
Many experts believe psychopathology, developed by growing up in a violent and abusive household causes domestic violence to continue as a generational legacy. Witnessing abuse as the norm, or being abused, destroys the child's ability to trust others and undermines his or her ability to control emotions. This produces hostile, dependant, and emotionally insecure people with a deeply impaired ability to develop and maintain healthy relationships.
Other experts believe genetic predisposition plays a part in the formation of an abuser, but very few studies offer definitive data to support this. In cultures where traditional beliefs endure that put women beneath men in status and personhood, domestic violence is rampant.
Even though the causes of domestic abuse remain poorly understood, it's critical that society stands strong against the crime of domestic violence and support laws and social programs put in place to stop the cycle
https://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/domestic-violence/causes-of-domestic-violence-domestic-abuse
So 'financial issues" , 'disagreements', and 'protracted periods of employment' seem to be forefront causes of DV.
The Oswalds certainly seemed to have qualified there.
Millions of couples have had these problems.
However, wife beating in this case still has not been anymore than innuendo and hearsay and was used as fodder by the authorities in their zeal to show that Oswald was a violent maniac turned assassin.
Those who believe this are free to... but I question that the cover up machine here really cared either way.
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30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly-dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.
The same guy who rarely left Marina money - she said he would leave her a few dollars on Monday when he returned to the rooming house - suddenly decides to leave $170 on the day of the assassination? Even though, Marina said, he was going to see her again on the weekend? Why not leave the money on Monday per the usual routine?
And again, one hundred and seventy dollars?
This is where the Oswald defenders reply, "Lots of men leave their wives money."
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No wonder Marina gave up the ghost with this bullying little prick:
23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender 'to her. I feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall George Bouhe, and others that Oswald was physically mistreating her.
24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt.
25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from time to time that Marina was pretending and acting.
26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what he wanted;
that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself.
27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything.
28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's mistreatment of her.
29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into this country, and If they did not do anything about it, it was probably all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became completely reassured.
30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly-dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.
Booyah, MCP
Chappy, You're sick.... You conjure up the damnedest nonsense and present it is if it's true. I'd be ashamed of myself.
If you're not embarrassed then you may benefit from the services of a shrink.....
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27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of Oswald....
'So & so told me that such and such said'.... as I mentioned before, this is called hearsay.
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'So & so told me that such and such said'.... as I mentioned before, this is called hearsay.
Mr. LIEBELER - The first time that Marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was?
Mrs. HALL - in July. Sometime in July.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, is that correct?
Mrs. HALL - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - But it wasn't until October or November -
Mrs. HALL - October when she moved.
Mr. LIEBELER - That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a result of her husband beating her, is that right?
Mrs. HALL - Yes.
JohnM
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Also covered in the opening post...
Elena Hall
Date: July 1962 (Estimate according to Mrs. Hall)
Location: Oswald' apartment.
Mrs Hall: "black and blue over half of her face"
Note: Bouhe took Marina to Elena's house. The date must be wrong because Bouhe testified that he first saw the bruise when the group went to visit Marina. That was at the end of August.
White Russian Group Visits Marina
Date: Late August 1962
Location: Oswald apartment.
Mr. Bouhe: "black eye"
Mrs. Meller: "terrible blue spot over her eye." "Under her eye was blue and over here [pointing].")
Marina tells Bouhe that Lee hit her. Probably too embarrassed to tell what really happened. Oswald was a loser and most likely, the marriage was headed for the rocks...but even in her own testimony, Marina told the commission that Lee wasn't really violent [but then he was and then he wasn't]
Marina tells Mrs. Meller that she bumped into door when feeding baby at night. (Mrs. Meller)
Lee wasn't present. (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)
Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you because
we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did such things.
Mrs. OSWALD. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes it was my own fault.
Didn't elaborate
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come to stay with her?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but he didn't beat me.
Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had beaten me, because it had happened.
That made no sense.
Mr. McDONALD. During this time in the Soviet Union, did Lee Harvey Oswald ever demonstrate any violent tendencies, any antisocial tendencies, either to you personally or in general?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, he would lose temper a few times, but he was pretty good at controlling it. You know naturally during the marriage husband and wife do fuss sometimes.
Mr. McDONALD. But it is your testimony that his behavior was not-
Mrs. PORTER. He wasn't really violent, no.
Mr. PREYER. Perhaps the word "deceptive."
Was he deceptive to you? Did he say to you he would do one thing and you later learned he did another thing?
Mrs. PORTER. Not that I know of, not at that particular period of my life.
Mr. PREYER. At this period of your life, did he ever act violently in front of you?
Mrs. PORTER. No.
Mr. McDONALD - What did he say? What did you say to him about President Kennedy's trip to Dallas?
Mrs. PORTER - It was quite exciting, you know, for me to talk about, but it seemed like he is changing the subject or just refused to talk about, but it wasn't in any hostile way or violent form. Just looked like he just ignored a little bit you know to talk about.
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LOL
Are you saying Mother Dearest was actually in the tub while bathing Dirty Harvey? They were saving water I suppose. I guess by her saying he was 'too big' by age 10-11 she meant for the tub, huh? The hits just keep on
It seems you are in the habit of making crap up and then asking the other person if that's what they are saying.
No, that's not what I'm saying. But nice dodge.
STOP twisting and exaggerating what I said: I asked if sleeping with his mother might be a factor in his later wife-beating.
"his later wife-beating" is what this thread is discussing the veracity of. You don't just get to state it as a fact to make your weird judgmental correlations.
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No wonder Marina gave up the ghost with this bullying little prick:
23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender 'to her. I feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall George Bouhe, and others that Oswald was physically mistreating her.
24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt.
25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from time to time that Marina was pretending and acting.
26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what he wanted;
that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself.
27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything.
28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's mistreatment of her.
29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into this country, and If they did not do anything about it, it was probably all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became completely reassured.
30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly-dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.
Booyah, MCP
Mr. "cut and paste plagiarized argument with no attribution" strikes again.
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30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly-dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.
The same guy who rarely left Marina money - she said he would leave her a few dollars on Monday when he returned to the rooming house - suddenly decides to leave $170 on the day of the assassination? Even though, Marina said, he was going to see her again on the weekend? Why not leave the money on Monday per the usual routine?
And again, one hundred and seventy dollars?
This is where the Oswald defenders reply, "Lots of men leave their wives money."
Junie needed new shoes.
He can't win. You guys criticize him when he gives her money and you criticize him when he doesn't give her money.
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Where in hell did that come from??
Also ...try your own links before you post them.... to see if they work.
And stop that drinking...it's bad for you.
John Pic spoke about Oswald being washed by his mother and sleeping with her
You put his statement down, which to me means you are calling him a liar
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Junie needed new shoes.
He can't win. You guys criticize him when he gives her money and you criticize him when he doesn't give her money.
Junie needed new shoes.
She was a growing girl and would constantly need new shoes.
He can't win. You guys criticize him when he gives her money and you criticize him when he doesn't give her money.
You might have a point if the time he gave Marina enough money to buy shoes wasn't the very day of the assassination and the amount Oswald left was quite sizable which means he must have been accumulating it for some time, therefore if Oswald was truly conscientious and loved his family he would have given his children the basic necessities of life much earlier like when they actually needed it and not at the last minute out of desperation.
JohnM
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You put his statement down, which to me means you are calling him a liar
I quoted his testimony therefore I call him a liar??? :-\
Have a few more beers and go lay down.
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You might have a point if the time he gave Marina enough money to buy shoes wasn't the very day of the assassination and the amount Oswald left was quite sizable which means he must have been accumulating it for some time, therefore if Oswald was truly conscientious and loved his family he would have given his children the basic necessities of life much earlier like when they actually needed it and not at the last minute out of desperation.
Your mindreading skills are underwhelming.
I understand though why you have to latch on to silly crap like wedding rings and cash when you don't have any real evidence of murder.
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John M,
He appeared to be trying to reconcile with Marina, so being overly generous may have been part of his unsubtle wooing.
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Your mindreading skills are underwhelming.
I understand though why you have to latch on to silly crap like wedding rings and cash when you don't have any real evidence of murder.
The facts are all there John, selfish Oswald had a stack of money yet kept the vast majority for himself until that is the day he decided to kill the President.
And Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
JohnM
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The facts are all there John, selfish Oswald had a stack of money yet kept the vast majority for himself until that is the day he decided to kill the President.
And Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
JohnM
JohnM
Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
If Lee left his wedding ring..... Then there's no doubt that is evidence that he murdered President Kennedy.... Do I have this right?? It seems a bit goofy to me..... Can you explain this "logic" Mr Mytton?
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Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
If Lee left his wedding ring..... Then there's no doubt that is evidence that he murdered President Kennedy.... Do I have this right?? It seems a bit goofy to me..... Can you explain this "logic" Mr Mytton?
Marina testified that Oswald rarely if ever left his wedding ring at home but on the day of the assassination tightarse Oswald left virtually all his money and left his Wedding Ring in one of Marina's family heirlooms.
The explanation that this was all premeditated and he knew that this day was his last one with Marina is a sensible conclusion unless of course you can suggest something equally logical?
JohnM
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Just curious. Why do you and Bill Brown respond in the same format?
Why this insistence on replying to virtually every post in a thread in multiple replies, couldn't you just answer them all in one post but I guess then you wouldn't meet your quota.
JohnM
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So let me get this straight -- according to you LNers LHO supposedly beats the 💩 out of Marina on a regular basis, but also then also worries enough about her to leave money for her on the day of the assassination. Talk about wanting your 🍰 and eating it too.
You can't even get this right, Oswald left the money for his children, he did say Junie needed new shoes which was obviously an allegory to get them everything they wanted because Daddy is going to do something real stupid.
JohnM
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And yet, when you do this or others do this then you have no problem with it. How come?
Sorry Rob, but the statistics speak for themselves.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/txn6shz63/toptenposters.jpg)
Btw what's your current per day post quota?
JohnM
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Sorry Rob, but the statistics speak for themselves.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/txn6shz63/toptenposters.jpg)
Btw what's your current per day post quota?
JohnM
A classic JM diversion?. Or perhaps it's more an obsession. Nobody cares about how many times a person posts, except of course little Johnny....
One wonders what he hopes to gain by bringing this crap up time after time.
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A classic JM diversion?. do not talk about the subject matter, but focus on the number of posts. Pathetic!
Sorry Martin, but your fair and unbiased input is not required.
JohnM
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Sorry Martin, but your fair and unbiased input is not required.
JohnM
Said little Johnny in his most "fair and unbiased" way....
I wonder who really cares what little Johnny thinks
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Said little Johnny in his most "fair and unbiased" way....
I wonder who really cares what little Johnny thinks
Said little Johnny in his most "fair and unbiased" way....
8)
I wonder who really cares what little Johnny thinks
You keep replying to me, so that's one.
JohnM
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Marina testified.....
Well hell....there you go right there :D
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Mr. "cut and paste plagiarized argument with no attribution" strikes again.
Are you too lame to know how to quickly track down an unattributed article?
And instead of addressing the content of what I posted, you dodge and veer off to nitpick about attribution... all the while giving Tom Sorenson a free pass for his 'cut-and-paste' and his non-attributed post* from the exact same source as mine. Oh, wait... he's a CTer
Hypocrite
*Reply #90 on: July 14, 2018, 07:53:46 PM ?
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Where's Mark Ulrick to accuse you of not giving credit to your source? Oh, I guess he only does this to CTers.
Like you do to LNers...
To wit: Where's your criticism of Sorenson, who used the Alexander Kleinlerer affidavit as did I.
Show us where he provided a link to his source:
(Sorenson) Reply #90 on: July 14, 2018, 07:53:46 PM ?
By the way, Are you too lame to know how to quickly track down an unattributed article? I tracked Sorenson's within 5 seconds...
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A classic JM diversion?. Or perhaps it's more an obsession. Nobody cares about how many times a person posts, except of course little Johnny....
One wonders what he hopes to gain by bringing this crap up time after time.
No one cares how many times someone posts except the ones paid per post ;)
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I wonder who really cares what little Johnny thinks
He does? Or he does....whichever :-\
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The facts are all there John, selfish Oswald had a stack of money yet kept the vast majority for himself until that is the day he decided to kill the President.
And Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
Sorry, I dozed off for a minute there. Is this supposed to be evidence of murder?
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Marina testified that Oswald rarely if ever left his wedding ring at home but on the day of the assassination tightarse Oswald left virtually all his money and left his Wedding Ring in one of Marina's family heirlooms.
The explanation that this was all premeditated and he knew that this day was his last one with Marina is a sensible conclusion unless of course you can suggest something equally logical?
And by "sensible conclusion", you mean completely unsubstantiated make-believe.
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You can't even get this right, Oswald left the money for his children, he did say Junie needed new shoes which was obviously an allegory to get them everything they wanted because Daddy is going to do something real stupid.
It's an allegory for "Mytton's been hallucinating again".
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Are you too lame to know how to quickly track down an unattributed article?
No, you are too dishonest to credit your cut-and-paste jobs as not your own work. That's how I know you're a plagiarist, because I did track it down.
And instead of addressing the content of what I posted, you dodge and veer off to nitpick about attribution... all the while giving Tom Sorenson a free pass for his 'cut-and-paste' and his non-attributed post* from the exact same source as mine. Oh, wait... he's a CTer
Lame. You're no better than Trump. Deflect, deflect, deflect.
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8)
You keep replying to me, so that's one.
JohnM
Desperate for an ego boost, are you?
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Desperate for an ego boost, are you?
That's two!
JohnM
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That's two!
JohnM
Just say how many you need to boost your ego.... I can help you achieve your goal. Really!
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Just say how many you need to boost your ego.... I can help you achieve your goal. Really!
Why are you obsessed with my Ego because you do realize that Ego is not a dirty word, it doesn't matter what you seen or you heard, EGO is not a dirty word!
If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight
If I did not have an ego I might not think that I was right
If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed
If you did not have an ego you'd just be like the rest
Chorus
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Don't you believe what you've seen or heard
If Jesus had an ego he'd still be alive today
And if Nixon had no ego he might not be in decay
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
Chorus
Some people keep their egos in a bottom drawer
A fridge full of Leonard Cohen
Have to get drunk just to walk out the door
Stay drunk to keep on goin'
So if you got an ego
You better keep it in good shape
Exercise it daily
And get it down on tape
chorus x3
EGO!
JohnM
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Why are you obsessed with my Ego because you do realize that Ego is not a dirty word, it doesn't matter what you seen or you heard, EGO is not a dirty word!
If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight
If I did not have an ego I might not think that I was right
If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed
If you did not have an ego you'd just be like the rest
Chorus
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Don't you believe what you've seen or heard
If Jesus had an ego he'd still be alive today
And if Nixon had no ego he might not be in decay
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
Chorus
Some people keep their egos in a bottom drawer
A fridge full of Leonard Cohen
Have to get drunk just to walk out the door
Stay drunk to keep on goin'
So if you got an ego
You better keep it in good shape
Exercise it daily
And get it down on tape
chorus x3
EGO!
JohnM
When did I ever say that ego is a dirty word and why do you use the word obsession so frequently?
Are you perhaps obsessed with obsessions?
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Sorry, I dozed off for a minute there. Is this supposed to be evidence of murder?
I'm sorry, did someone say the ring thing was in and of itself evidence of murder?
Did you hear that in one of your dozing off periods or were you awake when that claim came to you, Rasputin?
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I'm sorry, did someone say the ring thing was in and of itself evidence of murder?
Yes -- your hero Bugliosi. You didn't know that?
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Why are you obsessed with my Ego
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
Have to get drunk just to walk out the door
Stay drunk to keep on goin'
JohnM
Now I understand.
Seek help.
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I never would expect you to get the point of this thread.
It is not about wife beating.
...
Why did the Paines not report such behavior?
Could have fooled me. The thread title is:Did Oswald really beat his wife?
...The innuendo and straight out lies and smears aimed at discrediting Marina, the Frazier's, the Paine's etc etc (even questioning the sexual orientation of Ruth Paine) has been going on for years yet it's unfair to talk about the character of the scumbag that murdered the Pres and a Dallas cop?
Mr Howsley seems like quite the emotional person huh?
Even bringing up those unrelated topics.
The point of this thread was the zeal with which the Warren gang wished to convict Oswald [the dead guy] of the assassination utilizing any and all violent traits that they can muster including beating his wife.
As Ms Paine is mentioned- here was her testimony----
Mr. JENNER - And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15 1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?
Mrs. PAINE - There was never any such occasion.
Mr. JENNER - Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?
Mrs. PAINE - She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.
Mr. JENNER - Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises--
Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her--
Mr. JENNER - On her person?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her bruised.
Mr. JENNER - At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?
Mrs. PAINE - At no time.
Mr. JENNER - So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
You would think that with the time spent together...the house duties ...time together with the kiddos...the long drives to New Orleans and back...that women would confide all their past relations...any such disturbing history etc.
Yet...according to Ruth Paine there was none that she could relate.
Jenner persisted but Ruth steadfastly denied the accusation.
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Ever notice how often that happens in the WC testimony? Whenever they get an answer they don’t like, they keep re-asking the question over and over.
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Oswald leaving his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup was just another coincidence, eh John?
If Lee left his wedding ring..... Then there's no doubt that is evidence that he murdered President Kennedy.... Do I have this right?? It seems a bit goofy to me..... Can you explain this "logic" Mr Mytton?
Oswald left his rifle at the crime scene of the assassination of the president. Everything he did outside the norm that day is of interest in the totality of circumstances. Oswald's presence itself at the Paine home on a Thursday night was unusual. Leaving his wedding ring there on the very same day he is arrested for double murder is quite a coincidence if it had nothing to do with his actions that day. So much bad luck for Old Lee that day! Time and again he stumbles into a situation like Mr. McGoo that makes him appear guilty. He just happens to make an unplanned visit to the Paine home (where his wife confirms he kept his rifle) on the night before the assassination. He just happened to leave his wedding ring there for the first time in his marriage. He just happened to take his lunch in a bag over two feet long that morning. He decided to lie to Buell Frazier about his bag and deny to him that he was taking his lunch. He just happened to work in the building from which shots are fired at the President. He just happens to be in the building with no alibi at the moment of the assassination. He just happens to decide to knock off for the day and get a gun. He just happens to pass the scene of the first murder of a DPD officer in many years. He just happens to look so much like the shooter as to the identified by several different witness as the person at the scene with a gun. He just happened to draw the attention of a random shoe salesman who believed he was acting suspiciously. He just happened to sneak into a movie theatre without buying a ticket. He decided for some inexplicable reason to resist arrest and pull his gun on police officers who approached him without even waiting to learn what they wanted. He just happened to have in his possession the same two brands of ammo as used by Tippit's killer. So much bad luck. All coincidences? Nothing to see there with his ring or otherwise. LOL.
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Oswald left his rifle at the crime scene of the assassination of the president.... blah blah ---
He did? Really?...what a revelation that is! What a rant that all was.
Jumping to an unrelated topic again.
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Ever notice how often that happens in the WC testimony? Whenever they get an answer they don’t like, they keep re-asking the question over and over.
I also notice how they go off the record too. The Perry testimony is a good example of that [going by faulty memory]. And it was good old Dulles who was doing it at the time.
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Oswald left his rifle at the crime scene of the assassination of the president. Everything he did outside the norm that day is of interest in the totality of circumstances. Oswald's presence itself at the Paine home on a Thursday night was unusual. Leaving his wedding ring there on the very same day he is arrested for double murder is quite a coincidence if it had nothing to do with his actions that day. So much bad luck for Old Lee that day! Time and again he stumbles into a situation like Mr. McGoo that makes him appear guilty. He just happens to make an unplanned visit to the Paine home (where his wife confirms he kept his rifle) on the night before the assassination. He just happened to leave his wedding ring there for the first time in his marriage. He just happened to take his lunch in a bag over two feet long that morning. He decided to lie to Buell Frazier about his bag and deny to him that he was taking his lunch. He just happened to work in the building from which shots are fired at the President. He just happens to be in the building with no alibi at the moment of the assassination. He just happens to decide to knock off for the day and get a gun. He just happens to pass the scene of the first murder of a DPD officer in many years. He just happens to look so much like the shooter as to the identified by several different witness as the person at the scene with a gun. He just happened to draw the attention of a random shoe salesman who believed he was acting suspiciously. He just happened to sneak into a movie theatre without buying a ticket. He decided for some inexplicable reason to resist arrest and pull his gun on police officers who approached him without even waiting to learn what they wanted. He just happened to have in his possession the same two brands of ammo as used by Tippit's killer. So much bad luck. All coincidences? Nothing to see there with his ring or otherwise. LOL.
"Oswald left" LOL
"his rifle" LOL
"where his wife confirms he kept his rifle" LOL
Leaving his wedding ring makes him appear guilty of murder LOL
"decide to knock off for the day and get a gun" LOL
"pass the scene" LOL
"look so much like the shooter" LOL
"sneak into a movie theatre without buying a ticket" LOL
"pull his gun on police officers who approached him" LOL
"have in his possession the same two brands of ammo as used by Tippit's killer" LOL
So much fail.
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He did? Really?...what a revelation that is! What a rant that all was.
Jumping to an unrelated topic again.
It's a "rant" to cite the evidence and totality of circumstances because you disagree with them? Why not try to articulate a single rebuttal point? CTer/contrarian responses boil down to 1) commentary about the poster; 2) personal insult; 3) deflection off topic. An amazing consistency.
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Why not try to articulate a single rebuttal point?
I have for the last four years. With you...it does no good.
You shut your eyes and put your fingers in your ears.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/annoyed-kid-sticking-fingers-ears-eyes-closed-not-listening-to-loud-noise-ignoring-stressful-environment-stubborn-teen-134032970.jpg)
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"Oswald left" LOL
"his rifle" LOL
"where his wife confirms he kept his rifle" LOL
Leaving his wedding ring makes him appear guilty of murder LOL
"decide to knock off for the day and get a gun" LOL
"pass the scene" LOL
"look so much like the shooter" LOL
"sneak into a movie theatre without buying a ticket" LOL
"pull his gun on police officers who approached him" LOL
"have in his possession the same two brands of ammo as used by Tippit's killer" LOL
So much fail.
"Oswald left" LOL
"his rifle" LOL
There's no solid proof that Lee left the rifle that was found hidden beneath books in the NW corner of the sixth floor....As a matter of FACT, if Lee had fired that carcano from the sixth floor window he would not have had enough time to hide the carcano as it was found well hidden beneath a pallet of books. And been in the 2nd floor lunch room just 90 seconds after the FIRST shot was fired. The DPD knew this and that's why they created fake photos that show a rifle stuck between boxes of books, in a manner that might have allowed enough time to deposit the rifle as it is seen in the official DPD in situ photo.
"where his wife confirms he kept his rifle" LOL
Leaving his wedding ring makes him appear guilty of murder LOL
"decide to knock off for the day and get a gun" LOL
"pass the scene" LOL
"look so much like the shooter" LOL
"sneak into a movie theatre without buying a ticket" LOL
"pull his gun on police officers who approached him" LOL
"have in his possession the same two brands of ammo as used by Tippit's killer" LOL