Mr. BALL. Now, on November22. 1963, did you have an assignment?https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel over on the-would it be the--
Mr. WHITE. East side?
Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many people?
Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Didn't?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.
Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm
The problem I have with Patrolman White's testimony [aside from his apparent lack of interest in viewing the motorcade]...
is that in viewing the photograph taken at the precise moment of his declared observation, I fail to see the cop at his stated location...
or this freight train that he mentions passing at that exact moment.
Odd that White never mentioned that he was given any information about the incident...just only told to go work traffic.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPQdDjOWAAAaWA_?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
That small white thing on the south side of Main is White's white cap...As I posted...I fail to see the cop at his stated location.
As I posted...I fail to see the cop at his stated location.Thats what i said. He aint at his stated location.
or this freight train that he mentions passing at that exact moment.
So how do you know that the item mentioned is White's cap and what would he be doing way over there?
[clicking the picture enlarges it fully]
The guy doesn't exactly sound like Eliot Ness since he didn't even hear the shots. I don't really see why any of this is important, though. Is there some point you are trying to make...?Elementary Watson..You bring the point even more in focus.
The very top of some train cars can be seen between the Old Charter billboard and the TSBD. But I don’t remember who took the image. It might be a part of the Patsy Paschall film or someone else who was in that building. And it is possible that J.C. White is blocked from the camera by the top portion of the support between Elm Street and Main Street. Why was he interviewed? Possibly to find out what he had seen and heard.Whatever White witnessed would have been determined long before he ever testified wouldn't you think?
Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer’s assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people? Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after.
Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston
Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.
Whatever White witnessed would have been determined long before he ever testified wouldn't you think?
The train cars that are barely visible can be seen here--
(https://images2.imgbox.com/9b/0a/FyWnJmyM_o.jpg)
Besides.... that is not a freight train and it is going nowhere. They are old passenger cars that just sat there.
Elementary Watson..You bring the point even more in focus.
Patrolman White [submitted] that [outside of his imaginary freight train]- like Sgt Schultz...
He saw nothing...He heard nothing...Witnessed nothing at all...Appears to not even be there!
He offered absolutely zilch to the case so why did they even bother to take his testimony?
| (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Paschall_Life_1967.JPG) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_daniel45.jpg) |
| (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213447.JPG) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213801.JPG) | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-210735.JPG) |
Whatever White witnessed would have been determined long before he ever testified wouldn't you think?
The train cars that are barely visible can be seen here--
(https://images2.imgbox.com/9b/0a/FyWnJmyM_o.jpg)
Besides.... that is not a freight train and it is going nowhere. They are old passenger cars that just sat there.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1gMQ8bT-FucyV_q9NJKIImqAT-hOWV1J0)
The map insets show a dashed-line (representing the train) crossing southward over the bridge. The "first shot" I set at about Z160.
The middle inset (Altgens 07) was taken about two seconds before the Weigman film capture below.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor3.jpg)
The hypothetical train southbound progression would be about 30 feet further south in Wiegman than in Altgens 07. So such a train would not appear in Wiegman. The Paschall and Daniel films (below) are a bit late and not far enough south.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Paschall_Life_1967.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_daniel45.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213447.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213801.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-210735.JPG)
The film by Malcolm Couch began about 25 seconds after the head shot (or about 33 seconds after my ca.Z160 "first shot" on the top graphic). The clip showing the policeman with gun drawn and the south area of the bridge is some time later.
In this scenario, the freight might have not been between Officer White and the limousine by Z313, but the noise from it would largely be present, mixing in with and obscuring the last shot. Daniels heard three shots and Mel McIntire heard none.
.... And it is possible that J.C. White is blocked from the camera by the top portion of the support between Elm Street and Main Street.
The hypothetical train southbound progression would be about 30 feet further south in Wiegman than in Altgens 07.Hypothetical train? That would consist of an engine..freight car...and caboose :D
So such a train would not appear in Wiegman. The Paschall and Daniel films (below) are a bit late and not far enough south.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location
I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
The only thing interesting to me here is that the Secret Service had not stopped all rail traffic going over that bridge during the time of the motorcade.What if they were in on it?
The only thing interesting to me here is that the Secret Service had not stopped all rail traffic going over that bridge during the time of the motorcade.
Hypothetical train? That would consist of an engine..freight car...and caboose :D
Read it again slowly-----
I don't see much difference between these speculative claims and say...Badgeman lurking behind the fence or Umbrella Man...possible signal man.
I can now thoroughly understand the definition of... Strawman.
Reaching for a straw ...any straw at all...even if it is a quarter of an inch long to support a personal conjecture.
So Jerry Organ's train just buzzed on by and his attaboy pat pat has the cop hidden in plain sight.
He's there but you just can't see him [or the train]
Also.. Mr Organ appears to have the officer located at the north side of Commerce St [not in testimony]
What if they were in on it?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1gMQ8bT-FucyV_q9NJKIImqAT-hOWV1J0)
The map insets show a dashed-line (representing the train) crossing southward over the bridge. The "first shot" I set at about Z160.
The middle inset (Altgens 07) was taken about two seconds before the Weigman film capture below.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor3.jpg)
The hypothetical train southbound progression would be about 30 feet further south in Wiegman than in Altgens 07. So such a train would not appear in Wiegman. The Paschall and Daniel films (below) are a bit late and not far enough south.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Paschall_Life_1967.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_daniel45.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213447.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-213801.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/normal_20160719-210735.JPG)
The film by Malcolm Couch began about 25 seconds after the head shot (or about 33 seconds after my ca.Z160 "first shot" on the top graphic). The clip showing the policeman with gun drawn and the south area of the bridge is some time later.
In this scenario, the freight might have not been between Officer White and the limousine by Z313, but the noise from it would largely be present, mixing in with and obscuring the last shot. Daniels heard three shots and Mel McIntire heard none.
The photo shows the railroad cars that Mr Collins observed in the lead photo...you know this.
Your "proof" is the McIntire photo, taken long after a train might have been between White and DP.
Officer White might have been thinking about where he stopped running to when he realized something was wrong.Where does it say that in his testimony...that he "was running'...& 'realized something was wrong'?
A different time. They also let the President ride in an open car on a preannounced route. Live and learn.A bit late there for JFKPOTUS huh? ...to 'live and learn'.
The photo shows the railroad cars that Mr Collins observed in the lead photo...you know this.
Face it. Freight trains moved very slowly on those particular tracks...esp a 'big long' one described by White. Where does it say that in his testimony...that he "was running'...& 'realized something was wrong'?
A bit late there for JFKPOTUS huh? ...to 'live and learn'.
Where anywhere did any Secret Service people ever admit that they failed in their duties that day?
Of course, the freight I placed on the map is hypothetical.Then why do it?
A bit late there for JFKPOTUS huh? ...to 'live and learn'.
Where anywhere did any Secret Service people ever admit that they failed in their duties that day?
Speculation aside...I have searched for other spectators, police, railroad workers ..around those tracks that would corroborate the passing of the freight train and location of White----such information is apparently non-existent.
The movement of a train overhead right at the time of the shots shoulda coulda woulda have grabbed someone else's memory.Then why do it?
Bowers appears to confirm that White was there:And how many trains? OK White was on the far west side of the tracks where there was actually no reason to really stand lookout anyway.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen.
Maybe read some of Clint Hill's interviews and books. Nevertheless, the president no longer rides in an open car on a preannounced route. They learned many lessons that day. The security flaws were obvious and exploited by Oswald. It was a disaster waiting to happen and miraculous that it didn't happen before 11.22.63.They no longer have a SS agent with an AR15 in the followupcar. But the AR15 could not have happened before 11.22.63 koz the AR15 was put into service only on that morning. And then taken out of service on that afternoon. Where is it now. The museum needs to find it & put it on display. Or at least find another AR15-601 for display.
They no longer have a SSA with an AR15 in the follow up car.The "SSA" is Social Security Administration.
And how many trains? OK White was on the far west side of the tracks where there was actually no reason to really stand lookout anyway.
Someone would need a 30 ft ladder to breach the tracks from the west.
The train ...does Bowers confirm the train? And he was in the control tower and should have known this huh?
My guess is that this train had just passed over the triple underpass a short while before the images were taken. And that this train is what officer White associated with the time of the assassination.My guess is that you just keep guessing about stuff.
My guess is that you just keep guessing about stuff.
You can post scans of those Trask photos but the pictures posted already shows that there was no train as the motorcade passed through.
My guess is that you just keep guessing about stuff.
You can post scans of those Trask photos but the pictures posted already shows that there was no train as the motorcade passed through.
Again, what difference does it make?Ask yourself--- What difference do you make?
Ask yourself--- What difference do you make?
(https://i.vgy.me/5LoBMc.jpg)
I'll bet there was some secret service guys hanging on to that Cadillac that needed to change their underwear when they rolled into the hospital.
Another question...What difference did they make?
Heroic seeing those brave agents risk their lives standing on the narrow running board so they could stay with the President. They sure were brave professionals dedicated to public service. It was above and beyond the call of duty for the SS and Dallas Police that day.Heroic? It seemed like they really had no choice. They were following rather than leading anything.
Heroic seeing those brave agents risk their lives standing on the narrow running board so they could stay with the President. They gradually worked their way into stable positions. They sure were brave professionals dedicated to public service. It was above and beyond the call of duty for the SS and Dallas Police that day.
Too bad they were so inept (or malicious) in every other way.
Ask yourself--- What difference do you make?
(https://i.vgy.me/5LoBMc.jpg)
I'll bet there was some secret service guys hanging on to that Cadillac that needed to change their underwear when they rolled into the hospital.
Another question...What difference did they make?
There's that hatred of authority that you admire in Oswald.Hatred of authority... like defund the police?
It's ironic to criticize the secret service while defending JFK's assassin at all costs.
Hatred of authority... like defund the police?
I thought that is what Trump haters are all for.
Or today..the townspeople of Uvalde, Texas fired this police chief and demanded the resignation of the local, county, and state police and anyone else of AUTHORITY that even looked at their school building the day of that shooting.
How many FBI, Secret Service, County Sheriffs or Dallas Police resigned due to their failure to protect JFK?
By modern standards, the 1963 secret service was vastly understaffed and undertrained. Their job was also a lot more difficult.
Especially when they go out drinking all night long the night before.
“JFK’s assassin”. LOL.
... while defending JFK's assassin at all costsWhat does that mean? The Warren-ites are the ones going to all lengths here. One guy has a hypothetical train going southbound...another has it going northbound and based on the photographic evidence...I have it going not bound in any direction.
..an angry nut with a gun somewhere. ....and Oswald was the nut.Evidence [for the eleventy-seventh time]? That ......Oswald was----1. angry---2. a nut----3. had a gun.
What does that mean? The Warren-ites are the ones going to all lengths here. One guy has a hypothetical train going southbound...another has it going northbound and based on the photographic evidence...I have it going not bound in any direction.
Evidence [for the eleventy-seventh time]? That ......Oswald was----1. angry---2. a nut----3. had a gun.
And don't embarrass yourself by stating that the evidence is...he was the assassin.
What? The parked train in the North Yard, there for years before and after 1963? The McIntire photo taken after a train would no longer be on the railbridge?A Japanese bullet train no less.
If you knew the evidencePlease ::)
J.C. White appears to me to be stationed right where he is supposed to be. Like most any intelligent person, he appears to be standing in whatever shade he can find I drew an arrow to point him out.Yeah...if we try... maybe we can just make out the badge. Maybe you can draw in his hat :-\
(https://i.vgy.me/T6MIl7.jpg)
For all the CT folks out there, this is what a real "badgeman" looks like....
Yeah...if we try... maybe we can just make out the badge. Maybe you can draw in his hat :-\
What? The parked train in the North Yard, there for years before and after 1963? The McIntire photo taken after a train would no longer be on the railbridge?Many of these conspiracists or, if they prefer, WC "critics", certainly know the evidence against Oswald (it's almost as if it's their entire life). They just think it's all manufactured or faked. Backyard photos, Mexico City trip.... you name it, they'll figure out a way to dismiss it.
If you knew the evidence, you wouldn't disregard it with cheap mockery and gaslighting.
By my very rough calculations, the caboose of the long freight train, which can be seen in the two images I scanned from “Pictures of the Pain” and posted earlier in this thread, is approximately 258’ north of J.C. White’s assigned position.I wonder if the backlit pergola with the sun struck East shelter showing is a possibility for consideration. Forgive the “floating” train cars (RGB in my sim) and other items in the rail yard as I’ve little if any topographical data for the area west of the TUP. My spoof the of "Old Charter" sign was a quick fix for not having a good texture map for the real sign.
If that train was traveling north at just 6-mph (quite slowly), and the McIntire photo was taken about 30-seconds after Jerry’s estimated first shot at Z160, then the back portion of the train would have been between J.C. White’s assigned position and the limo at the time of the first shot.
A Japanese bullet train? ???
Not necessary! 8)
Edit: The two McIntire photos were taken a few seconds apart. And the train appears to be in the same position. Therefore, unless it had just come to a stop, this theory doesn’t appear to work. My bad…
What does that mean? The Warren-ites are the ones going to all lengths here. One guy has a hypothetical train going southbound...another has it going northbound and based on the photographic evidence...I have it going not bound in any direction. Evidence [for the eleventy-seventh time]? That ......Oswald was----1. angry---2. a nut----3. had a gun.
And don't embarrass yourself by stating that the evidence is...he was the assassin.
Many of these conspiracists or, if they prefer, WC "critics" know the evidence against Oswald. They just think it's all manufactured or faked. Backyard photos, Mexico City trip.... you name it, they'll figure out a way to dismiss it.
I wonder if the backlit pergola with the sun struck East shelter showing is a possibility for consideration. Forgive the “floating” train cars (RGB in my sim) and other items in the rail yard as I’ve little if any topographical data for the area west of the TUP. My spoof the of "Old Charter" sign was a quick fix for not having a good texture map for the real sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/sJXAg5b.jpg)
That’s an interesting point James. I am guessing that you are referring to the absence of anyone running away from that area with a rifle.
Since you appear to be interested, do you have the capability to simulate how much of Elm Street can be seen from the position that J.C. White was assigned to (the west side of the TUP, above the north curb of Main Street)? I am guessing that the limo would disappear from his view as it traveled down the slope towards the TUP. But I think that it would be interesting to see at approximately what point (Z-frame number) it disappears from his view due to the structure of the TUP itself.
Many of these conspiracists or, if they prefer, WC "critics", certainly know the evidence against Oswald (it's almost as if it's their entire life). They just think it's all manufactured or faked. Backyard photos, Mexico City trip.... you name it, they'll figure out a way to dismiss it.Huh?
In fact, they believe there's more credible and authentic evidence that Ruth Paine was involved then there's credible/authentic evidence that Oswald was. The Oswald defenders get upset when Oswald is the target but not so much, indeed not at all, when it's Ruth or someone else.Before you lift your skirt up any higher...realize that you have blown way off topic here. Your [apparent] position was understood long ago.
Do you think a train ran over JFK? The obsession about the train is bizarre. It has no apparent relevance to this case.If you don't like the topic...why do you keep returning to it?
That’s an interesting point James. I am guessing that you are referring to the absence of anyone running away from that area with a rifle.The pergola and shelter show in the area between the sign and TSBD and give an alternative identification of a caboose, imo.
Since you appear to be interested, do you have the capability to simulate how much of Elm Street can be seen from the position that J.C. White was assigned to (the west side of the TUP, above the north curb of Main Street)? I am guessing that the limo would disappear from his view as it traveled down the slope towards the TUP. But I think that it would be interesting to see at approximately what point (Z-frame number) it disappears from his view due to the structure of the TUP itself.
If you don't like the topic...why do you keep returning to it?
The pergola and shelter show in the area between the sign and TSBD and give an alternative identification of a caboose, imo.Thats good.
Here is a quick animation from J.C. Foster’s location on the TUP over the south curb of Main at the west banister. I used an eye-height of 72 inches. The timing begins about when Tina Towner begins her film at the turn and ends near Z313. Even without spectator’s blocking the view Foster’s view of the motorcade wasn’t great.
(https://i.imgur.com/abGX0wH.gif)
Thanks, I made the edit.
Should say White not Foster.
I thought you might be trying to convey some point. My mistake.
The pergola and shelter show in the area between the sign and TSBD and give an alternative identification of a caboose, imo.
Here is a quick animation from J.C. Foster’s location on the TUP over the south curb of Main at the west banister. I used an eye-height of 72 inches. The timing begins about when Tina Towner begins her film at the turn and ends near Z313. Even without spectator’s blocking the view Foster’s view of the motorcade wasn’t great.
(https://i.imgur.com/abGX0wH.gif)
Thats good.
I think that JFK's head might have been too low to see at Z313.
I think that Hickey's head & the AR15 might have been in view at Z313. Except that the say 10 gawkers at the eastern barricade of the TUP would have blocked White's view.
Anyhow, if White could see the AR15 then he would have heard the AR15 fire an auto burst of at least 3 shots.
The trees on the knoll would have blocked White's view of his left side of Elm St.
Should say White not Foster.
The arrow shows i think the high pillar of the western barricade -- White's eyes might have been at the same elevation as the top of that pillar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzvBh7NK/jfk-view-of-officer-white-when-near-z313.jpg)
Yes -- but White was on the south side of Main -- which is where Jack drawed his view, & where i put my arrow.
Look at the western end of the pillar between Elm and Main that can be seen below the level of the tracks. It’s close to being in line with the street light that is to camera right of your arrow. I think that line of sight should be about where the top of that pillar would be found. Your arrow might be pointing at the top of the pillar between Main and Commerce Street. Just my opinion…
Yes -- but White was on the south side of Main -- which is where Jack drawed his view, & where i put my arrow.
I have edited my wordage to say that the top of that pillar was probly a head height above the top of White's head -- hence he could not see the top of the jfklimo windshield, hence he could not see jfk's head, but i think he might have been able to see Hickey's head, Hickey being half standing.
Yes -- but we know that he was on the south side.
His testimony says that he was on the north side of Main:
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Yes -- but we know that he was on the south side.
Yes -- but we know that he was on the south side.
The McIntire photos can't speak to where Officer White was at an earlier time. It's also uncertain that White is visible in the photos.I reckon that that is White's white cap -- or his face.
We do? How do we “know” this?If he was on the north side of Main then he must have been hiding behind the pillar or on his knees peering tween the posts when McIntire took his pix.
I reckon that that is White's white cap -- or his face.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvjSVL54/Mc-Intire-shows-White.jpg)
Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?How could White have seen the president's car 'going underneath' if ---1. He was on the west side of the underpass and 2. If there was a train going by?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building.
Foster was behind Holland -- standing on a railways cabinet.
White even marked his position on exhibit A.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0376b.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0376b.htm)
And I believe that Holland said that White was right behind him the last time he looked, just before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza.
Foster was behind Holland -- standing on a railways cabinet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnpQMQYd/foster-on-cabinet.jpg)
The cabinet was similar to this cabinet -- but closer to the camera here -- ie out of frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QNkJQTh/foster-on-cabinet-2.jpg)
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me.Where did Holland mark the 3?
Mr. STERN - Put a "2" where you believe he was standing.
Mr. HOLLAND - He was standing in close enough so that he could see, but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned there, I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Standing almost directly behind you?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't know, but--because I was watching them.
Mr. STERN - Yes. Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people were who were on the Overpass at this time.
Where did Holland mark the 3?
I was hoping you would be curious enough to look this up yourself.Its hard to tell -- it looks like there is a 3 over the center of Main, west side.
Its hard to tell -- it looks like there is a 3 over the center of Main, west side.
Would you please be kind enough to post a link to the diagram?I clicked on the link that u posted earlier.
I clicked on the link that u posted earlier.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0376b.htm
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/pages/WH_Vol20_0090b.jpg)
J.W. Foster in No More Silence, p212
“At the time the motorcade came through, there were about seven or eight people up there. As you looked down, I was standing over the third lane from the north curb of Elm Street. Four or five were standing right in front of me, and there were several on down the trestle away from me. Just prior to the shots, a three engine locomotive went by, so there wasn’t a lot that you could see or hear from up there even though the locomotive had already passed and just the boxcars were going by at the time the motorcade passed through.”
Foster mentions boxcars (my bolding) present when the motorcade came through. I wonder if some lower profile flatcars were in the train and possibly harder to detect in the McIntire photos.
| (https://dux7id0k7hacn.cloudfront.net/as/assets-mem-com/cmi/2/4/4/3/4643442/20110423_104841_1_orig.jpg/-/earle-brown-dallas-tx-photos19.jpg) | (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/58031/58031-h/images/i_p034.jpg) |
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm;https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/brown_e.htm
were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did It come to a. complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you?
Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and
they heard the shots before we did because I saw them flying up - must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?
Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the - between us and the, this over pass you are talking about there's
kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then
I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so - at least it smelled like It to me.
Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas ---
Mr. BALL. School Book Depository? ...................
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/brown_e.htm
(https://www.gutenberg.org/files/58031/58031-h/images/i_p034.jpg)
If Officer Brown was positioned at insert block F ...This was some really quite amazing--- vision, hearing and sense of smell.
Where the F is located on the map... happens to be the same spot in the picture that started off this thread----
One picture is worth 1000 words and 1000 words hasn't changed the picture.
Shows how little Skeptic Tank knows the evidence. Or how poor his parsing skills are. Officer Brown was on the T & P railroad overpass that crossed over Stemmons, not in "block F".
Shows how little Skeptic Tank knows the evidence. Or how poor his parsing skills are. Officer Brown was on the T & P railroad overpass that crossed over Stemmons, not in "block F".Fine..then why post a map that doesn't indicate the point?
Posts where members are antagonistically addressed by a name other than their Forum username...
Fine..then why post a map that doesn't indicate the point?
That Tx-Pacific RR overpass...still there--Stemmons Frwy....still there....the old TSBD....still there.
Some trees are in the way now. Look how far it is...at least 1000 feet to Elm and Houston.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7783715,-96.8112227,3a,60y,20.53h,89.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG5cp7XnAUXC8wDZBXWBJqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Ignored are the statements of the cop...'heard 3 shots...smelled gun powder...saw the limo stop'...From that location really?
If all this 'evidence' I was supposed to know... was so familiar to begin with...it would have posted it by now so don't point fingers.
What a train crossing the triple underpass looks like---
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3735/10070136885_3d2e845742_b.jpg)
And BTW Jerry Organ is in violation of forum rules..............
I thought you wanted Topics to stay focused on the OP?Except when I start the topic.
You then asked if anybody else saw a train. I gave you Brown. Let's talk about that.You mentioned 'heard 3 shots...smelled gun powder...saw the limo stop' Brown that doesn't mention
You can tell he supports Trump because he's a marshmellow.You mean marshmallow? Take your political crap to the off topic forum... Snowflake.
Except when I start the topic.You mentioned 'heard 3 shots...smelled gun powder...saw the limo stop' Brown that doesn't mentionatheany train at the triple underpass. You mean marshmallow? Take your political crap to the off topic forum... Snowflake.
Fine..then why post a map that doesn't indicate the point?
That Tx-Pacific RR overpass...still there--Stemmons Frwy....still there....the old TSBD....still there.
Some trees are in the way now. Look how far it is...at least 1000 feet to Elm and Houston.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7783715,-96.8112227,3a,60y,20.53h,89.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG5cp7XnAUXC8wDZBXWBJqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Ignored are the statements of the cop...'heard 3 shots...smelled gun powder...saw the limo stop'...From that location really?
If all this 'evidence' I was supposed to know... was so familiar to begin with...it would have posted it by now so don't point fingers.
What a train crossing the triple underpass looks like---
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3735/10070136885_3d2e845742_b.jpg)
And BTW Jerry Organ is in violation of forum rules..............
It appears to me that the train in question can be seen on the triple underpass in the Volkland photo taken from Stemmons Freeway immediately after the assassination. I put a red arrow and wrote the red words on this copy of the photo.Hi Charles. It appears to me that those train cars are the same as those photographed in a Jerry Cabluck aerial taken in the afternoon (Trask-Pictures of the Pain p350). The Triple Under Pass is viewable at the right of frame, but to me does not suggest the presence of a train. Sorry about that. If you have any questions about the graphic please ask.
(https://i.vgy.me/zlGZxU.jpg)
I have done some quick line of sight alignments with some of the buildings and approximated Volkland’s position. It appears to me that the train cars designated by the arrow are on the triple underpass. Please feel free to double check my alignments for yourselves. Please let me know if you disagree or agree with my assessment. Thanks!
Hi Charles. It appears to me that those train cars are the same as those photographed in a Jerry Cabluck aerial taken in the afternoon (Trask-Pictures of the Pain p350). The Triple Under Pass is viewable at the right of frame, but to me does not suggest the presence of a train. Sorry about that. If you have any questions about the graphic please ask.
(https://i.imgur.com/z3KSFaa.jpeg)