JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: David Von Pein on September 12, 2019, 09:04:32 PM
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At The Education Forum, Lance Payette has made several excellent points regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's so-called "Domino Room Alibi". If you'd like to take a gander, here's the link....
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26009-who-was-mrs-robert-reid/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-406382
As an addendum to Lance's comments on this matter, I'd like to also point out the following fact (which Lance has not mentioned [as yet anyway])....
For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly does not exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.
Why?
Because we know that two of those three people—James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.
Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have possessed that same capability?
Conspiracy theorists would no doubt argue that the above scenario is not very realistic, in that it would be hard to believe that a person who was planning on killing the President would have been located on the first floor (and at the back of the building) at a time when he should have been in his sniper's perch on the sixth floor waiting for the President to arrive in Dealey Plaza.
But there are several "unknown" factors associated with Lee Oswald's pre-assassination actions and mindset that have never been proven or firmly established—such as the "unknown" answers to these three questions:
Where and when did Oswald assemble his rifle (and how long did it take him to do so)?
and...
How long did it take Oswald to construct his "Sniper's Nest" of boxes?
and...
What exactly was Oswald thinking in the hours and minutes leading up to JFK's arrival?
I'm not saying that I think that Oswald was in the Domino Room with Jarman and Norman just a few minutes before the assassination. I don't believe he was. But I am saying that the so-called "Domino Room Alibi", which many conspiracy theorists think is some sort of rock-solid proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's innocence, is really nothing of the kind—even if Oswald had been located in that Domino Room a few minutes before 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963.
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Your saying Oswald had time to get into the sniper's is a double edged sword. This time variable would also apply to Oswald claiming to have gone outside to watch the "Pr Parade" per the alleged Hosty Notes of Oswald's very 1st interrogation.
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Your saying Oswald had time to get into the sniper's is a double edged sword. This time variable would also apply to Oswald claiming to have gone outside to watch the "Pr Parade" per the alleged Hosty Notes of Oswald's very 1st interrogation.
I don't think your example is analogous to mine at all. Please elaborate further.
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I don't think your example is analogous to mine at all. Please elaborate further.
If you are buying into Oswald being Down in the Domino Room on the 1st FLOOR and having time to reach the 6th floor, he certainly has that same amount of time to eventually amble out of the TSBD to watch the "Pr Parade". Why would anyone planning on firing a rifle out of the 6th Floor of the TSBD horse around on the 1st Floor mere minutes prior to the JFK Limo passing by? Putting Oswald inside that 1st Floor Domino Room makes it FAR more likely for him to go out the front door and watch the "Pr Parade", vs his hustling up to the 6th floor and climbing into the sniper's nest. Anybody at any point during that journey could have seen him heading for/climbing into the 6th Floor sniper's nest. If you believe Oswald fired the Carcano, You need to stay away from even considering his being inside the Domino Room.
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If you are buying into Oswald being Down in the Domino Room on the 1st FLOOR and having time to reach the 6th floor, he certainly has that same amount of time to eventually amble out of the TSBD to watch the "Pr Parade". Why would anyone planning on firing a rifle out of the 6th Floor of the TSBD horse around on the 1st Floor mere minutes prior to the JFK Limo passing by? Putting Oswald inside that 1st Floor Domino Room makes it FAR more likely for him to go out the front door and watch the "Pr Parade", vs his hustling up to the 6th floor and climbing into the sniper's nest. Anybody at any point during that journey could have seen him heading for/climbing into the 6th Floor sniper's nest. If you believe Oswald fired the Carcano, You need to stay away from even considering his being inside the Domino Room.
I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.
A related thought....
At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....
Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.)*
Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.
* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's rifle bullets. Here is that message:
"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support). You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it, these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011 (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J)
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I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.
A related thought....
At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....
Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.) Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.
Besides the people in the doorway Oswald would have had a decent view of everything and everyone below and I reckon he would have had a good reason to suss out who was where, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman walk back towards the the building and after Oswald possibly heard them talking on the floor below naturally came to the conclusion that they were both moving around the TSBD together?
Norman and Jarman were a fair distance apart and imo a conversation would have required a louder than ordinary speaking voice.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)
JohnM
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Besides the people in the doorway Oswald would have had a decent view of everything and everyone below and I reckon he would have had a good reason to suss out who was where, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman walk back towards the the building and after Oswald possibly heard them talking on the floor below naturally came to the conclusion that they were both moving around the TSBD together?
Norman and Jarman were a fair distance apart and imo a conversation would have required a louder than ordinary speaking voice.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce480.jpg)
JohnM
Where do you theorise that Oswald was when he noticed them John? Sitting next to BRW in the SN? :)
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I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.
A related thought....
At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....
Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.) Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.
Regarding possible forgotten bullets, where does the Carcano Clip come into this? It would be far easier to already have the bullets in the, "now you see it, now you don't" Carcano Clip.
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Where do you theorise that Oswald was when he noticed them John? Sitting next to BRW in the SN? :)
That is exactly why we have people speculating about Oswald knocking around the Domino Room and then turning into Flash Gordon and racing up to the 6th Floor. They have No Way to explain No One being in the sniper's nest when BRW was sitting on that dolly scant feet away.
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I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.
A related thought....
At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....
Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.) Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.
So for this theory to have traction Oswald has to take the NW staircase or the west elevator. Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the 5th and shut the gates, allowing it to be "called" down. For Oswald to have used this method he would have had to waited for it to go to the 5th, then down again, and back up to the 6th. He then shuts the gates so that it can be used by Dougherty just a few minutes before the shots.......seems doubtful time wise.
This leaves the back stairs and a race across to the SN on the 6th floor. Not anywhere a convincing theory I am afraid.
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That is exactly why we have people speculating about Oswald knocking around the Domino Room and then turning into Flash Gordon and racing up to the 6th Floor. They have No Way to explain No One being in the sniper's nest when BRW was sitting on that dolly scant feet away.
He was never on the dolly Royell. He was in the SN.
Here is the view to the west wall from the SN position when standing on the 22nd........looks a clear view to the wall to me from the dolly position. He didn't notice the guy with a rifle there at 12.15? Maybe he was sitting in the SN..."those boxes" would have prevented him seeing the gunman.
(https://i.ibb.co/1nb7pnz/dolly.jpg)
Williams is a proven liar by his own statements.
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He was never on the dolly Royell. He was in the SN.
Here is the view to the west wall from the SN position when standing on the 22nd........looks a clear view to the wall to me from the dolly position. He didn't notice the guy with a rifle there at 12.15? Maybe he was sitting in the SN..."those boxes" would have prevented him seeing the gunman.
(https://i.ibb.co/jg342tQ/dolly.jpg)
Williams is a proven liar by his own statements.
Why would he bother to fight his way through those boxes in order to get inside the sniper's nest?
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Regarding possible forgotten bullets, where does the Carcano Clip come into this? It would be far easier to already have the bullets in the, "now you see it, now you don't" Carcano Clip.
Yes, I agree with you there. It would make sense for the bullets to already be contained within the rifle clip.
But how about this for yet another (admittedly) wholly speculative LN theory concerning this topic? ....
It's Thursday night (Nov. 21st) in Ruth Paine's garage....
Lee Oswald is busy in the garage preparing his rifle package (aka: the "curtain rod" package) for the next day's trip into work with Buell Frazier....
Oswald seals up the brown paper bag with disassembled Carcano Rifle No. C2766 inside....
After taping down the top end of the package, Oswald then remembers something....
He has forgotten to put the rifle's clip (which contains the four 6.5 mm. bullets) inside the now-sealed brown paper package....
What should he do now? Should he unwrap and unseal the taped package in order to place the clip and bullets inside it (perhaps running the risk of ripping the bag and/or possibly not being able to re-tape the end of the bag adequately enough to ensure that it stays sealed during the entire ride to the TSBD the next morning in Frazier's car)? Or should he not disturb the already-sealed bag and just carry the clip (w/bullets) in the pocket of the jacket that he will wear to work the following morning?
Possibly....just possibly....perhaps Oswald decided on the latter option.
Food for (bullet) thought anyway.
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So for this theory to have traction Oswald has to take the NW staircase or the west elevator. Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the 5th and shut the gates, allowing it to be "called" down. For Oswald to have used this method he would have had to waited for it to go to the 5th, then down again, and back up to the 6th. He then shuts the gates so that it can be used by Dougherty just a few minutes before the shots.......seems doubtful time wise.
This leaves the back stairs and a race across to the SN on the 6th floor. Not anywhere a convincing theory I am afraid.
As I said earlier, the total time to do all that would have probably been less than 3 minutes. Maybe even less than that if Oswald moved at a good rapid pace. But, just like with LHO's trip from the 6th floor to the lunchroom after the shooting, to hear a CTer tell it, such a simple journey from the sixth floor to the first floor and back was Mission Impossible.
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Why would he bother to fight his way through those boxes in order to get inside the sniper's nest?
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
So why did he not notice the gunman at 12.15 seen in the SW window? Because he was eating in the SN.......where his lunch was originally discovered. And he was noticed by Rowland.
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At The Education Forum, Lance Payette has made several excellent points regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's so-called "Domino Room Alibi". If you'd like to take a gander, here's the link....
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26009-who-was-mrs-robert-reid/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-406382
As an addendum to Lance's comments on this matter, I'd like to also point out the following fact (which Lance has not mentioned [as yet anyway])....
For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly does not exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.
Why?
Because we know that two of those three people—James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.
Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have possessed that same capability?
Conspiracy theorists would no doubt argue that the above scenario is not very realistic, in that it would be hard to believe that a person who was planning on killing the President would have been located on the first floor (and at the back of the building) at a time when he should have been in his sniper's perch on the sixth floor waiting for the President to arrive in Dealey Plaza.
But there are several "unknown" factors associated with Lee Oswald's pre-assassination actions and mindset that have never been proven or firmly established—such as the "unknown" answers to these three questions:
Where and when did Oswald assemble his rifle (and how long did it take him to do so)?
and...
How long did it take Oswald to construct his "Sniper's Nest" of boxes?
and...
What exactly was Oswald thinking in the hours and minutes leading up to JFK's arrival?
I'm not saying that I think that Oswald was in the Domino Room with Jarman and Norman just a few minutes before the assassination. I don't believe he was. But I am saying that the so-called "Domino Room Alibi", which many conspiracy theorists think is some sort of rock-solid proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's innocence, is really nothing of the kind—even if Oswald had been located in that Domino Room a few minutes before 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963.
For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly does not exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.
Why?
Because we know that two of those three people—James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.
Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have possessed that same capability?
I agree that when Norman and Jarman could make it to the 5th floor, Oswald could indeed have made it to the 6th. But IMO there are two flaws in this reasoning. First of all, we now know that the motorcade was running late. At the time it happened, the shooter wouldn't and couldn't have known that. So, for the shooter to show up on the 6th floor just prior to 12.30 pm seems an unlikely scenario. Even more so as witnesses said that they saw movement in the window from 12.15 pm, which would make a lot more sense as it computes far better with the scheduled time the motorcade was due to pass by the TSBD. It obviously doesn't compute well with a scenario in which Oswald stays in the Domino room until just prior to 12.30 pm
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Where do you theorise that Oswald was when he noticed them John? Sitting next to BRW in the SN? :)
Perhaps, 4 eyes searching are better than 2!
JohnM
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I agree that when Norman and Jarman could make it to the 5th floor, Oswald could indeed have made it to the 6th. But IMO there are two flaws in this reasoning. First of all, we now know that the motorcade was running late. At the time it happened, the shooter wouldn't and couldn't have known that. So, for the shooter to show up on the 6th floor just prior to 12.30 pm seems an unlikely scenario. Even more so as witnesses said that [they] saw movement in the window from 12.15 pm, which would make a lot more sense as it computes far better with the scheduled time the motorcade was due to pass by the TSBD. It obviously doesn't compute well with a scenario in which Oswald stays in the Domino room until just prior to 12.30 pm
I agree with everything you just said, Martin.
My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time here.
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At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....
Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.)*
* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's rifle bullets. Here is that message:
"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support). You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it, these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011 (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J)
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Pat Speer went into great detail on this. He has found plenty of evidence to the contrary. No one here (crazy CTers and of course the Nutters) will of course bother reading the link below but if you really want to learn how it was virtually impossible for Oswald to have done what he was accused of doing in that very tight time frame and with so many people around, then read this very carefully.
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22
Lance Payette seems like a nice guy. I gave him some advice when he traveled to DC a while back on a nice unknown site to see down there (the FDR memorial) and he said he enjoyed it afterward. But as for this case, Lance is nothing if not a walking contradiction. He claims to be a genius attorney who believes in no conspiracy anywhere, no UFOs (rightfully so) but also believes there is some higher up fairy out there controlling the universe with nothing more to believe in than "faith."
The problem with Lance is that for all of his so-called lawyerly prowess, he simply cannot shake it that things were a little too perfect, too pat, on 11/22. Any lawyer worth their salt - putting all of the other batspombleprofglidnoctobuns craziness of this case aside - would have found plenty of oddities in this case that go beyond mere coincidence.
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Pat Speer went into great detail on this. He has found plenty of evidence to the contrary. No one here (crazy CTers and of course the Nutters) will of course bother reading the link below but if you really want to learn how it was virtually impossible for Oswald to have done what he was accused of doing in that very tight time frame and with so many people around, then read this very carefully.
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22
Lance Payette seems like a nice guy. I gave him some advice when he traveled to DC a while back on a nice unknown site to see down there (the FDR memorial) and he said he enjoyed it afterward. But as for this case, Lance is nothing if not a walking contradiction. He claims to be a genius attorney who believes in no conspiracy anywhere, no UFOs (rightfully so) but also believes there is some higher up fairy out there controlling the universe with nothing more to believe in than "faith."
The problem with Lance is that for all of his so-called lawyerly prowess, he simply cannot shake it that things were a little too perfect, too pat, on 11/22. Any lawyer worth their salt - putting all of the other batspombleprofglidnoctobuns craziness of this case aside - would have found plenty of oddities in this case that go beyond mere coincidence.
Nah, we leave that for Gullible, Paranoiac, America-hating, KGB-loving Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theorists to do.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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To David Von Pein - the problem with your "All Oswald All of the Time" is you simply cannot accept the fact that from the get-go, the whole "investigation" was a whitewash. Yes, it's true, David. It's as simple as that. It was written for lawyers by lawyers to fudge the record and sweep it under the rug.
I know you won't but read Speers link above. What those lawyers did during their investigation was disgraceful to the memory of Kennedy. It's too bad you're too blind not too see that.
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Nah, we leave that for KGB-loving tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists to do.
-- MWT ;)
Did you ever have a chance to de-blob those blobs of the women you're so obsessed with, Tom? Or are you still teaching yourself which key to use on the keyboard? And by the way, there's no return arm on computers :-)
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/tLQUXzSOcgr6w/giphy.gif)
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Did you ever have a chance to de-blob those blobs of the women you're so obsessed with, Tom? Or are you still teaching yourself which key to use on the keyboard? And by the way, there's no return arm on computers :-)
Do you have a hard time telling women from men, too, Walton?
Sorry to hear that.
-- MWT ;)
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To David Von Pein - the problem with your "All Oswald All of the Time" is you simply cannot accept the fact that from the get-go, the whole "investigation" was a whitewash...
Oh, spare me the "whitewash" refrain. It's as old as dirt. And it's just another cop-out excuse utilized by conspiracy theorists who want to continue to pretend that Oswald was some sort of patsy/pawn.
When you dig up the very first piece of physical evidence that doesn't point directly at the feet of Lee Harvey Oswald, let me know. I've been waiting 30+ years to see it.
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The absurdity of the whole premise lies with the idea that someone or anyone knew almost precisely when the motorcade would pass through Dealey Plaza.
Actually no one did... Except perhaps persons with two-way radios that kept close surveillance of the motorcade.
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Oh, spare me the "whitewash" refrain. It's as old as dirt.
Remarkably...so are your platitudes.
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Perhaps, 4 eyes searching are better than 2!
JohnM
Oh I forgot that you agreed with me that Williams was in the SN when the assassin was there too. We just don't agree it was necessarily Oswald. Glad I could help your cause though.
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Here is Lance's piece in italic for everyone to read....my stuff is inserted where appropriate.
Regarding the "Domino Room Alibi" -
We know Oswald was an incredible, bald-faced l-i-a-r in almost every conceivable situation – even, as Marina chided him, when the truth would have served him just as well. It’s no more surprising that he would've claimed to be eating lunch in the domino room than that he would've claimed (as he did) to have never owned a rifle or to have claimed that his mother was dead and he had no siblings (as he did in Minsk).
Lance starts with this rather simplistic argument. There is no doubt Oswald told lies on some occasions…..as does everyone. Surely, the key is to separate truth from fiction.
If Oswald wasn't going to confess to sitting on the sixth floor with a rifle in his hand, a lunchroom was probably the most plausible noontime alibi. And he certainly would have known that he had in fact been seen downstairs, albeit not at the time of the assassination. It isn't implausible that he would have made sure he was seen downstairs, thereby laying the groundwork for an alibi.
Seems a circular argument but if I interpret it correctly Lance now uses the notion that an assassin who did not want to take credit for the act (ie. claim innocence at the time of apprehension) would try and develop an alibi close to the time of the shooting. Therefore he would hang out where he would be seen just before the act. Oswald was certainly observed on the first floor by Shelley and Piper around noon. The Piper sighting put this after the “elevator race” which placed him on the 5th floor (most likely).
Mr. Ball.
Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. Piper.
Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr. Ball.
Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr. Piper.
Down on the first floor.
Mr. Ball.
What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman. Almost every day, in fact. But very seldom by Oswald.
Let’s not let facts get in the way of a good story Lance……
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?
Mr. JARMAN - No. sir; not that I know of.
Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?
Mr. JARMAN - Most of the time he brought his lunch.
Mr. BALL - Most of the time he brought his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him buy his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, occasionally. I don't think so.
Mr. BALL - I don't understand.
Mr. JARMAN - I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.
Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?
Mr. JARMAN - I think once or twice he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald brought or bought any lunch on November 22nd, let alone a cheese sandwich and an apple.
Seems occasionally he bought his lunch from the truck according to Jarman.....maybe he did that day. See Piper's comment above "out to eat". Perhaps he is guilty of not bringing his lunch with him that day.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the
domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
Fritz's notes stated "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
Fritz's report stated Oswald "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."
Bookhout's report stated Oswald "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."
Kelley's report stated Oswald "said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as ‘Junior,’ a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."
(Hosty’s note that Bart reproduces has Oswald getting his drink from the second-floor lunchroom before returning to the domino room to eat lunch but says nothing about Jarman and Norman.)
Thus, two sources report Oswald as saying he ate with Jarman and Norman. One says they “walked through the room.” One says they “came in.”
Thus, three of four sources indicate Jarman and Norman were actually in the domino room with Oswald.
It appears that Fritz’s “came in” note is being interpreted as meaning Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they “came in” the loading dock door at about 12:25 while he was eating in the domino room. In light of the other three sources, this interpretation is completely unwarranted and seems unlikely given the eating arrangements in the domino room and the sight line from there to the loading dock entrance.
We have no recordings of the interrogation sessions or any signed statement by the accused. Therefore the recollections of various witnesses it all that can be interpreted. We have no stenographic record of the exact questions asked or answered, therefore the best we have is a form of “Chinese whispers” interpretation of the response by Oswald.
What appears to be unquestioned is that he mentioned the domino room and Jarman and Norman specifically. If he was trying to establish a believable alibi it makes no sense for him to have claimed he ate lunch with them if they were not there. Too easy to get statements from them denying such a claim. As we have seen from the above testimonies it was normal for “all of them” to be in the domino room at lunch time. This was not an ordinary lunchtime though. The President was going to pass by the building so of all those workers who would be expected to be watching the motorcade at that time, how did Oswald know those two would be walking by the domino room and into the back door on their way to the elevators?
I believe the key to this is the wording of Bookout’s report. Having those two “walking through the room” to someone who knows the layout of the first floor makes no sense. However if one substitutes the word “through” with “by” the scenario of Oswald sitting in the lunch room and noticing them passing through the window becomes a possibility.
Some CTers suggest that Oswald actually saw Jarman and Norman through the domino room window when they were on the sidewalk outside the loading dock, which doesn’t fit any of the four sources. (And what about conspiracy saint Carolyn Arnold, who decided years after the event that she had seen Oswald eating in the second-floor lunchroom? Oops.)
See above…….the four “sources” all differ to some degree…..the key to this is the fact he referred to two specific individuals at a place and time one would not expect them to be….at the rear of the TSBD about the time the President was expected to pass the front of the building.
Query: Why would the nefarious Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley (and Hosty) even have reported these statements by Oswald? Why would they not have made sure their notes and reports included no possible alibi for Oswald? Again, we see the familiar game of the conspirators being geniuses at steps 1-3-5 and dolts at steps 2-4-8.
Not even worth replying to by really serious CT with an IQ above room temperature. None of them were comparatists to the assassination. At the time the notes were not freely available and quite frankly did not know what we know now about the sequence of events. THE WC myth regarding the events was “in production” some months after they were created.
Moreover (as DVP would point out if he were here), this interpretation views the Domino Room Alibi in a vacuum and ignores a boatload of inconvenient evidence, including Oswald’s curious trip to Irving on Thursday, Frazier’s testimony that Oswald did not bring a lunch, the existence of the sixth floor sniper’s nest with Oswald’s rifle in it, the complete lack of evidence of any other gunmen in the building or being observed leaving the building, the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald’s inexplicable actions after the assassination, and Oswald’s failure, despite multiple opportunities, to scream to reporters and everyone else within earshot “I was eating in the first floor lunchroom, for God’s sake!!! After that I was standing on the front steps with Shelley and all the other employees!!!”
Oh dear……the “classic” LN lament……well it doesn’t matter anyway because we know he did it. Please, those that troll this line out should simply disappear from fora that consider themselves serious about “debating” evidence in order to further understanding of the events.
For this alibi to work, an almost incredible number of people from diverse walks of life would have to have been conspirators or accessories after the fact. Which, of course, they were – if one is neck-deep in the Conspiracy Game. But even then, you’re left with all of the other evidence that would become inexplicable if the alibi were true.
More drivel…..
Put the Domino Room Alibi outside the TSBD if you like – but I probably wouldn’t put it in stone. Maybe you can hire a homeless guy to hold a cardboard sign?
I previously caused a furor by referencing some of the peer-reviewed literature on the conspiracy mindset. I won't wade into those waters again, but it would be very enlightening for you to study some of the professional literature (of which there is a mountain) regarding the psychology and unreliability of eyewitness testimony and specifically recollections of highly traumatic events. You will learn that the wildly conflicting stories and timelines, far from being evidence of conspiracies and lies, are exactly what we would expect if the witnesses were telling the truth to the best of their ability.
No one doubts the issues with relying on uncorroborated witness observations/statements that are uncorroborated. Then again, why do you ignore numerous testimonies when they are essentially in agreement for events and just make crap up to fit your narrative, like the lunch room observations of TSBD workers above become Oswald seldom ate lunch in the Domino room?
As new member Sean DeGrilla points out in his recent book Malcontent, which I did buy and read, Oswald's words and actions are exactly what we would expect from someone who was guilty.
Observations of a cop…..no need for a courts anymore from a lawyer is priceless, just “book ‘em Dano”. I heard that guy on an interview on Lone Gunman podcast……didn’t even know it was Givens who was missing and not allowed back inside….there is no doubt that Oswald was guilty of something…..the question is what exactly.
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I agree with everything you just said, Martin.
My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time here.
Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
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Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
Martin,
Are you sure Norman and Jarman didn't pass through the "vestibule," instead?
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
-- MWT ;)
PS Do you really think Oswald would have said "room" to refer to an open part of the first floor that someone (in this case, Norman and Jarman) had passed through while on their way to the elevator?
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Martin,
Are you sure Norman and Jarman didn't pass through the "vestibule," instead?
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
-- MWT ;)
PS Do you really think Oswald would have said "room" to refer to an open part of the first floor that someone (in this case, Norman and Jarman) had passed through while on their way to the elevator?
Do you really think Oswald would have said "room" to refer to an open part of the first floor
No, I don't think that at all, but I believe it to be possible that the interrogators wrote it down incorrectly using that word. The different ways in which they describe the event in their reports seems to indicate that they were not familiar (enough) with the lay out of the first floor. Had they known that the Domino room had only one entrance, don't you think they would have confronted Oswald with that fact if indeed he had said that the negros walked through the room?
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Don't see much traction from Lance's post David....looks a flop to me.....just some made up stuff. Is he really a lawyer? A practicing attorney or just someone with a law degree?
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Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
So why did he not notice the gunman at 12.15 seen in the SW window? Because he was eating in the SN.......where his lunch was originally discovered. And he was noticed by Rowland.
Your answer to my question is non-responsive. Again, why would he fight his way through the boxes encasing the sniper's nest to simply eat his lunch? Also, if he were waiting for friends to join him, how would they have seen him if he were squirreled away inside the sniper's nest? If you believe he is a flat-out liar, just say so.
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* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's rifle bullets. Here is that message:
"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support). You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it, these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011 (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J)
The malarkey above is hilarious. So Oswald is smart enough to Hide the bullets to HIS rifle, yet he leaves HIS Rifle at the scene of the crime after killing a POTUS? And then parks himself inside a theater with absolutely No avenue of escape? :D
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Don't see much traction from Lance's post[,] David....looks a flop to me.....just some made up stuff. Is he really a lawyer? A practicing attorney or just someone with a law degree?
In that EF thread, Lance is doing the same thing I've been doing on JFK forums for the last 15 years----he's pointing out the (very) flawed thinking of the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/getting-back-to-basics.html
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So Oswald is smart enough to Hide the bullets to HIS rifle, yet he leaves HIS Rifle at the scene of the crime after killing a POTUS?
Yeah, you're right, he probably should have just walked out the front (or back) door of the TSBD carrying the 40-inch Carcano in his hands. Who's gonna notice, right?
Is that what you think a Presidential assassin should have done with his rifle after having just shot the POTUS?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jhSmmTGa5GQ/VW9qb5iy1WI/AAAAAAABGdo/zM050_8Z9S0/s1600/Eyeroll-Icon-Blogspot.gif)
And then parks himself inside a theater with absolutely No avenue of escape? :D
Yeah, instead of ducking into a nice dark theater, Oswald should have just stayed right out there on sunny Jefferson Boulevard, in full view of the passing police cars who were searching for Officer Tippit's killer....right?
Replay -------> (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jhSmmTGa5GQ/VW9qb5iy1WI/AAAAAAABGdo/zM050_8Z9S0/s1600/Eyeroll-Icon-Blogspot.gif)
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In that EF thread, Lance is doing the same thing I've been doing on JFK forums for the last 15 years----he's pointing out the (very) flawed thinking of the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists.
Not nearly as flawed as thinking that “why would a conspiracy do that?” is a good argument for Oswald’s guilt.
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Not nearly as flawed as thinking that “why would a conspiracy do that?” is a good argument for Oswald’s guilt.
Oh that's right. I forgot about that rule. LNers aren't permitted to ask such "Why would the plotters do that?" type of questions. We're supposed to just sit back and accept the crazy thinking of the David Liftons and Jim Garrisons and Oliver Stones of the world when they tell us that JFK's killers had a DESIRE to shoot at the President from the FRONT, even though their Designated Patsy was in the REAR.
And I'm not supposed to ask "Why would a conspiracy do that?", am I John?
Another Reprise ------> (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jhSmmTGa5GQ/VW9qb5iy1WI/AAAAAAABGdo/zM050_8Z9S0/s1600/Eyeroll-Icon-Blogspot.gif)
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* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's rifle bullets. Here is that message:
"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support). You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it, these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011 (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J)
I recall a guy, part of the WC in some way IIRC, saying something to the effect that Oswald may have been of two minds as to making an attempt on Kennedy at all, right down to the last few minutes.
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I recall a guy, part of the WC in some way IIRC, saying something to the effect that Oswald may have been of two minds as to making an attempt on Kennedy at all, right down to the last few minutes.
Sounds like you might be talking about me. (Although I was never part of the WC.) But I made my opinion known about elements of the "Two Minds" theory years ago....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/lee-harvey-oswalds-decision-to-shoot-jfk.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html#The-Mindset-Of-Oswald
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And I'm not supposed to ask "Why would a conspiracy do that?", am I John?
Sure you are, if somebody actually proposes such a conspiracy instead of you just strawmanning one to argue against.
But either way, arguing against a particular conspiracy doesn’t get you any closer to showing that Oswald did it.
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I'm not saying that I think that Oswald was in the Domino Room with Jarman and Norman just a few minutes before the assassination. I don't believe he was. But I am saying that the so-called "Domino Room Alibi", which many conspiracy theorists think is some sort of rock-solid proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's innocence, is really nothing of the kind—even if Oswald had been located in that Domino Room a few minutes before 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963.
I agree though, David. Oswald has no solid alibi for 12:30.
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Sure you are, if somebody actually proposes such a conspiracy instead of you just strawmanning one to argue against.
And you don't think a single CTer has ever proposed a theory that has JFK being shot from the front, even though the designated patsy is located to the rear of JFK's car?
Maybe you'd better get out your DVD (or VHS) of Oliver Stone's film again. It would seem as though you've totally forgotten the "shooting" plot of that movie.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ZW3QU49S1AM1
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Not nearly as flawed as thinking that “why would a conspiracy do that?” is a good argument for Oswald’s guilt.
Is that as 'flawed' as you lot never posting the butt-end view of CE399? Is that as 'flawed' as starting Zap a few frames late (as per Martin Hinrichs) in arguments re the twofer? Is that as 'flawed' as you attempting to try the case in bits & pieces (while at the same time holding each separate piece to a beyond-reasonable-doubt standard) like some Better Call Saul-style greaseball?
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Sounds like you might be talking about me. (Although I was never part of the WC.) But I made my opinion known about elements of the "Two Minds" theory years ago....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/lee-harvey-oswalds-decision-to-shoot-jfk.html
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html#The-Mindset-Of-Oswald
I've not seen that and I'm certain it was someone officially connected to the WC
Maybe a name will stand out if I can find a list of WC employees
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And you don't think a single CTer has ever proposed a theory that has JFK being shot from the front, even though the designated patsy is located to the rear of JFK's car?
How did Lance Payette’s argument about the domino room alibi morph into where the shot that killed JFK originated from?
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How did Lance Payette’s argument about the domino room alibi morph into where the shot that killed JFK originated from?
I was talking about crazy CT theories in general.
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Is that as 'flawed' as you lot never posting the butt-end view of CE399?
My “lot” has posted that photo here many times. This is just one of the BS claims you trot out repeatedly.
Is that as 'flawed' as starting Zap a few frames late (as per Martin Hinrichs) in arguments re the twofer?
What “twofer”? When did Martin say anything about starting Zap a few frames late?
Is that as 'flawed' as you attempting to try the case in bits & pieces (while at the same time holding each separate piece to a beyond-reasonable-doubt standard) like some Better Call Saul-style greaseball?
I don’t know why you lot think that pieces evidence that don’t meet a reasonable doubt standard somehow combine to meet one. Garbage in, garbage out.
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But either way, arguing against a particular conspiracy doesn’t get you any closer to showing that Oswald did it.
Huh? If a shot could be proven to come from the front wouldn't that get you closer to showing Oswald didn't do it.
JohnM
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Bump, just in case David missed my post in the fast moving thread.
I agree with everything you just said, Martin.
My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time here.
Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
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Huh? If a shot could be proven to come from the front wouldn't that get you closer to showing Oswald didn't do it.
Not really — unless it can be proven where Oswald was. But if you could prove the shot that killed JFK came from behind, it still wouldn’t tell you anything about who fired it.
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Your answer to my question is non-responsive. Again, why would he fight his way through the boxes encasing the sniper's nest to simply eat his lunch? Also, if he were waiting for friends to join him, how would they have seen him if he were squirreled away inside the sniper's nest? If you believe he is a flat-out liar, just say so.
If his workmates planned to meet him why did they not join him? Why were they (Lovelady and Arce) questioned about the "plan"? Williams lied repeatedly to authorities about his movements on the 6th floor. As did Jarman and Norman. His lunch was reported by numerous officers who first observed the SN. Rowland testified he saw an African-American in that position at the time he was on the 6th floor.
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In that EF thread, Lance is doing the same thing I've been doing on JFK forums for the last 15 years----he's pointing out the (very) flawed thinking of the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/getting-back-to-basics.html
Why would he need to make up stuff about Oswald rarely eating lunch in the Domino room. It is easily dismissed as unsupported rambling of those too lazy to read the testimonies or unable to interpret the information. Like those LNs who claim did no work that day because there were orders left on the clipboard. That Grillo guy claimed that on the LG podcast recently. Total baloney. Put your LN narrative into the reality that is supported by the assembled evidence. At least JohnM has acknowledged that the events immediately prior to the shooting might not be as suggested by the WR.
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By the time any investigator could have known that Jarman and Norman were walking together Oswald was dead. Until March ‘64 Jarman and Norman said that Williams was with them during the lunch break and on the elevator to the 5th floor. Williams told of his trip to the 6th floor only after Oswald was dead.
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If his workmates planned to meet him why did they not join him? Why were they (Lovelady and Arce) questioned about the "plan"? Williams lied repeatedly to authorities about his movements on the 6th floor. As did Jarman and Norman. His lunch was reported by numerous officers who first observed the SN. Rowland testified he saw an African-American in that position at the time he was on the 6th floor.
You believe THEY are lying. Why did They lie?
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You believe THEY are lying. Why did They lie?
They did lie.....look at the various statements. As for their motivation to lie....that the real discussion. Evidence needs to be substantiated. The claim by Williams of a meeting of workmates on the 6th floor is unsubstantiated, unsupported by events and not investigated by the WC. In any court of law would be treated as such. He was a liar. The question is why. Why did others lie in an attempt to remove him from the 6th floor? There is no question that they lied.....it in the statements for anyone to see. Givens also lied about seeing Oswald during his "cigarette trip". I have no doubt Oswald lied in custody......the funny thing is we have no record of it, simply the statements of others. Yet we have signed statements from Williams, Jarman, Norman and Givens that all contain lies.
I have serious issues with those LN proponents who dismiss the evidence that seems inconvenient to them. Why investigate the case at all? How far have they come from the conclusions of day one? The WR author(s) were unwilling or unable to digest and analyse (or both) their own assembled evidence.
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They did lie.....look at the various statements. As for their motivation to lie....that the real discussion. Evidence needs to be substantiated. The claim by Williams of a meeting of workmates on the 6th floor is unsubstantiated, unsupported by events and not investigated by the WC. In any court of law would be treated as such. He was a liar. The question is why. Why did others lie in an attempt to remove him from the 6th floor? There is no question that they lied.....it in the statements for anyone to see. Givens also lied about seeing Oswald during his "cigarette trip". I have no doubt Oswald lied in custody......the funny thing is we have no record of it, simply the statements of others. Yet we have signed statements from Williams, Jarman, Norman and Givens that all contain lies.
You're too good to Not have your own theory. Show some stones.
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You're too good to Not have your own theory. Show some stones.
You want him to make up a story? That’s what the charlatans do.
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You're too good to Not have your own theory. Show some stones.
I have previously on numerous occasions. JohnM and I are not to far apart. My understanding is we both believe that Williams left the SN a few minutes before the shots after an interaction with the assassin. He thinks it was Oswald, I am not convinced it was.
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You want him to make up a story? That’s what the charlatans do.
There's nothing wrong with having a "Working Theory". The entire case is based on one = SBT
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You're too good to Not have your own theory. Show some stones.
To help relieve your ignorance......from 3 years ago......easier to listen than read sometimes
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )cevents/episodes/2016-09-21T00_28_29-07_00 (https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )cevents/episodes/2016-09-21T00_28_29-07_00)
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To help relieve your ignorance......from 3 years ago......easier to listen than read sometimes
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )cevents/episodes/2016-09-21T00_28_29-07_00 (https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )cevents/episodes/2016-09-21T00_28_29-07_00)
Thanks for providing that Link. You write in Part 3, "For some reason Williams, Norman, and Jarman were not totally candid about what happened that day". So finish the story. Why were they, "....not totally candid about what happened that day"?
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How did Lance Payette’s argument about the domino room alibi morph into where the shot that killed JFK originated from?
Looks like a fart in a spacesuit post to me.....does Lance really practice law David?
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Looks like a fart in a spacesuit post to me.....does Lance really practice law David?
Colin,
Instead of asking asinine rhetorical questions about someone who doesn't participate at this forum, why don't you google "lance payette" or "lance b payette" and find out for yourself?
-- MWT
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Colin,
Instead of asking asinine rhetorical questions about someone who doesn't participate at this forum, why don't you google "lance payette" or "lance b payette" and find out for yourself?
-- MWT
Thanks for replying to my asinine rhetorical question to David on his behalf Thomas. I took your advice and searched a bit. Seems there is someone by that name who was registered to practice law in Arizona on 1982. Interestingly that person shares a birthday with me but is 6 years older. He has one published work in a law journal with 4 reads on researchgate. In comparison my published research works have more than 5,000 reads on that network.
That Lance seems to have practiced law.......if it was him on the ED......I would not hire him based on the arguments he proposed.
Do you think Oswald rarely ate lunch on the first floor with the others? Should I expect an another asinine response?
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My “lot” has posted that photo here many times. This is just one of the BS claims you trot out repeatedly.
>>> Show us a couple of samples
What “twofer”? When did Martin say anything about starting Zap a few frames late?
>>> Where did I say he did?
I don’t know why you lot think that pieces evidence that don’t meet a reasonable doubt standard somehow combine to meet one. Garbage in, garbage out.
>>> LOL... 'a reasonable standard'... no, your interpretation of reasonable standard, which includes removal from context
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Thanks for replying to my asinine rhetorical question to David on his behalf Thomas. I took your advice and searched a bit. Seems there is someone by that name who was registered to practice law in Arizona on 1982. Interestingly that person shares a birthday with me but is 6 years older. He has one published work in a law journal with 4 reads on researchgate. In comparison my published research works have more than 5,000 reads on that network.
That Lance seems to have practiced law.......if it was him on the ED......I would not hire him based on the arguments he proposed.
Do you think Oswald rarely ate lunch on the first floor with the others?
Nah, I think he was out distributing "Justice for the Rosenbergs!" pamphlets in Dealey Plaza every lunchtime.
-- MWT ;)
PS What's your area of expertise, Colin? Gardening?
PPS Did your research indicate how long Lance practiced law, and whether or not he garnered any awards? Any demerits to speak of?
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Nah, I think he was out distributing "Justice for the Rosenbergs!" pamphlets in Dealey Plaza every lunchtime.
-- MWT ;)
PS What's your area of expertise? Gardening?
If you listen to the podcast link provided earlier you will find out....what's yours, I am assuming you have one?
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If you listen to the podcast link provided earlier you will find out....what's yours, I am assuming you have one?
While we wait for your reply, the Az Lance, had 4 articles listed on google scholar. Might be a better reflection than researchgate as that is primarily a science network.
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If you listen to the podcast link provided earlier you will find out....what's yours, I am assuming you have one?
Colin,
Did your research indicate how long Lance practiced law, and whether or not he garnered any awards or commendations?
Me? I'm just a seventy year-old surf bum aka underachiever who scored in the 98th percentile on the SAT's verbal intelligence section in 1966 (but only in the 75th percentile on mathematical intelligence), and taught "English Conversation" in the Czech Republic for seven years, etc, etc, etc.
Why don't you go to the EF and read my "bio"? It's easy to find. Just sort for "most visited". Last time I checked, I was number 17, iirc.
Question: You been a CTer long?
What influenced you?
Mark "I Was Subsidized By The KGB" Lane's Rush to Judgement?
Oliver "I Like Vladimir Putin And My Son Works For RT" Stone's JFK?
James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum?
Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley?
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Colin,
Did your research indicate how long Lance practiced law, and whether or not he garnered any awards or commendations?
-- MWT ;)
Why would I bother researching that Lance any further? So, do you have any area of expertise? I am intrigued.
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Why would I bother researching that Lance any further? So, do you have any area of expertise? I am intrigued.
Another rhetorical question about Lance, eh?
Would you rather just malign him?
I reiterate in slightly expanded form:
Colin,
Did your research indicate how long Lance practiced law, and whether or not he garnered any awards or commendations?
Me? I'm just a seventy year-old surf bum aka underachiever who scored in the 98th percentile on the SAT's verbal intelligence section in 1966 (but only in the 75th percentile on mathematical intelligence), and taught "English Conversation" in the Czech Republic for seven years, etc, etc, etc.
Why don't you go to the EF and read my "bio"? It's easy to find. Just sort for "most visited". Last time I checked, I was number 17, iirc.
Question: You been a CTer long?
What influenced you?
Mark "I Was Subsidized By The KGB" Lane's Rush to Judgement?
Jim "Mobbed-Up" Garrison?
Oliver "I Like Vladimir Putin And My Son Works For RT" Stone's JFK?
James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum?
Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley?
Et al., ad nauseam?
-- MWT ;)
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Would you rather just malign him?
-- MWT ;)
His posting stands as testimony to his current powers of analysis and debate. He made stuff up that was easily disproved. Not the type of behaviour I would expect from someone with that background. That’s why I asked if he was still practicing.....
As I said...based on his post I would not employ him to defend me. That is my opinion and I have analysed his post in some detail here. As someone who professes linguistic skills I question your use of the word "malign" in that context.
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His posting stands as testimony to his current powers of analysis and debate. He made stuff up that was easily disproved. Not the type of behaviour I would expect from someone with that background. That’s why I asked if he was still practicing.....
As I said...based on his post I would not employ him to defend me. That is my opinion and I have analysed his post in some detail here. As someone who professes linguistic skills I question your use of the word "malign" in that context.
Would you prefer malinger, as in to?
An intransitive verb, iirc?
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Colin,
Did your research indicate how long Lance practiced law, and whether or not he garnered any awards or commendations?
Me? I'm just a seventy year-old surf bum aka underachiever who scored in the 98th percentile on the SAT's verbal intelligence section in 1966 (but only in the 75th percentile on mathematical intelligence), and taught "English Conversation" in the Czech Republic for seven years, etc, etc, etc.
Why don't you go to the EF and read my "bio"? It's easy to find. Just sort for "most visited". Last time I checked, I was number 17, iirc.
Question: You been a CTer long?
What influenced you?
Mark "I Was Subsidized By The KGB" Lane's Rush to Judgement?
Oliver "I Like Vladimir Putin And My Son Works For RT" Stone's JFK?
James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum?
Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley?
If you listened to the podcast via the link provided earlier all will be revealed. Quickly, a documentary about 1978 on the HSCA shortly followed by "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers. Then pretty much my own research, access to the WC volumes in my library and later NARA records etc.
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Would you prefer malinger, as in to?
An intransitive verb, iirc?
Which meaning of the word? In a legal sense?
Here is what I said....."That Lance seems to have practiced law.......if it was him on the ED......I would not hire him based on the arguments he proposed." I would contend that statement does not align with the word malign.
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If you listened to the podcast via the link provided earlier all will be revealed. Quickly, a documentary about 1978 on the HSCA shortly followed by "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers. Then pretty much my own research, access to the WC volumes in my library and later NARA records etc.
Oh yeah?
Great!
What's your "take" on HSCA perjurer John L. Hart's testimony?
Nosenko's?
Tennent H. Bagley's?
https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109752#relPageId=2&tab=page
-- MWT ;)
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Which meaning of the word? In a legal sense?
LOL
Mull it over while you loiter, Colin.
-- MWT ;)
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LOL
Mull it over while you loiter, Colin.
-- MWT ;)
Obviously an inappropriate use of the term and now you can’t defend it. Duck and weave Thomas. Then again linguistics is not my area of expertise. Not mulling just going to check if any reds under my bed.....hopefully back in a bit.
While I wait, how about a non-asinine response to Oswald’s lunchtime roaming? Rare or "the norm" to be with colleagues on the first floor based on the evidence we have?
PS....David has been loitering for a long time....in threads I start I normally respond with alacrity. Hmmm, perhaps expeditiously is a more appropriate.
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Obviously an inappropriate use of the term and now you can’t defend it. Duck and weave Thomas. Then again linguistics is not my area of expertise. Not mulling just going to check if any reds under my bed.....hopefully back in a bit.
While I wait, how about a non-asinine response to Oswald’s lunchtime roaming? Rare or "the norm" to be with colleagues on the first floor based on the evidence we have?
Colin,
Get it straight: You've been maligning Lance Payette by insinuating that he isn't a lawyer, or that he wasn't a lawyer, or that he isn't who he claims to be.
-- MWT ;)
PS "Duck and weave"?
I prefer to call it "wending".
Look it up?
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Colin,
Get it straight: You've been maligning Lance Payette by insinuating that he wasn't a lawyer, or wasn't who he claimed to be.
-- MWT ;)
No, as you don’t seem to understand, I stated if he was a practicing lawyer I would not hire him based on what I saw in his post on the EF. That is an opinion and I showed where he "made stuff up" that was easily disproved.
You on the other hand have proven nothing (that I did not suspect previously). David introduced his post here, I anxiously await his response.
Good luck with your wending......just be careful I heard you can go blind doing that.
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No, as you don’t seem to understand, I stated if he was a practicing lawyer I would not hire him based on what I saw in his post on the EF. That is an opinion and I showed where he "made stuff up" that was easily disproved.
You on the other hand have proven nothing (that I did not suspect previously). David introduced his post here, I anxiously await his response.
Good luck with your wending......just be careful I heard you can go blind doing that.
Colin,
"To insinuate" is not quite the same as "to state," now is it?
Of course you didn't come right out and state that Lance isn't (or wasn't) a lawyer, but you sure-as-hell insinuated it with your asinine rhetorical questions (plural).
So who's "ducking and weaving," now, Crow?
-- MWT ;)
PS "prove, proved, proved" is the preferred declension, (or conjugation, or whatever it's called)
PPS No, it's what Iacoletti is rumored to do on a regular basis in the garden at midnight that makes one grow semi-blind and unable, eventually, to see anything but "blobs," not wending, especially as gracefully as I do it through a crowded coffeehouse with a hot and lid-less cup of coffee.
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Obviously an inappropriate use of the term and now you can’t defend it. Duck and weave Thomas. Then again linguistics is not my area of expertise. Not mulling just going to check if any reds under my bed.....hopefully back in a bit.
While I wait, how about a non-asinine response to Oswald’s lunchtime roaming? Rare or "the norm" to be with colleagues on the first floor based on the evidence we have?
PS....David has been loitering for a long time....in threads I start I normally respond with alacrity. Hmmm, perhaps expeditiously is a more appropriate.
in threads I start I normally respond with alacrity
>>> Congratulations... is she cute?
Alacrity definition: A rarely used term around here that a snooty pseudo-intellectual uses in an attempt to sound superior.
Expeditiously definition: See above.
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in threads I start I normally respond with alacrity
>>> Congratulations... is she cute?
Alacrity definition: A rarely used term around here that a snooty pseudo-intellectual uses in an attempt to sound superior.
Expeditiously definition: See above.
Thanks for you contribution Bill but we have moved past asinine....try and keep up. I do dispute your use of the prefix "pseudo", perhaps Thomas will ask why you malign me so.
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in threads I start I normally respond with alacrity
>>> Congratulations... is she cute?
Alacrity definition: A rarely used term around here that a snooty pseudo-intellectual uses in an attempt to sound superior.
Expeditiously definition: See above.
Bill,
I love that word, actually. For two reasons (I told you I wasn't very good at math):
1) To impress people with my incredible verbal intelligence
2) To make them believe, usually mistakenly, that I think they're verbally intelligent, too.
3) It's comprised (there I go again; sorry about that) of only four syllables, much fewer than "brisk and cheerful readiness".
-- MWT ;D
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Here is Lance's piece in italic for everyone to read....my stuff is inserted where appropriate.
Regarding the "Domino Room Alibi" -
We know Oswald was an incredible, bald-faced l-i-a-r in almost every conceivable situation – even, as Marina chided him, when the truth would have served him just as well. It’s no more surprising that he would've claimed to be eating lunch in the domino room than that he would've claimed (as he did) to have never owned a rifle or to have claimed that his mother was dead and he had no siblings (as he did in Minsk).
Lance starts with this rather simplistic argument. There is no doubt Oswald told lies on some occasions…..as does everyone. Surely, the key is to separate truth from fiction.
If Oswald wasn't going to confess to sitting on the sixth floor with a rifle in his hand, a lunchroom was probably the most plausible noontime alibi. And he certainly would have known that he had in fact been seen downstairs, albeit not at the time of the assassination. It isn't implausible that he would have made sure he was seen downstairs, thereby laying the groundwork for an alibi.
Seems a circular argument but if I interpret it correctly Lance now uses the notion that an assassin who did not want to take credit for the act (ie. claim innocence at the time of apprehension) would try and develop an alibi close to the time of the shooting. Therefore he would hang out where he would be seen just before the act. Oswald was certainly observed on the first floor by Shelley and Piper around noon. The Piper sighting put this after the “elevator race” which placed him on the 5th floor (most likely).
Mr. Ball.
Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. Piper.
Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr. Ball.
Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr. Piper.
Down on the first floor.
Mr. Ball.
What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman. Almost every day, in fact. But very seldom by Oswald.
Let’s not let facts get in the way of a good story Lance……
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?
Mr. JARMAN - No. sir; not that I know of.
Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?
Mr. JARMAN - Most of the time he brought his lunch.
Mr. BALL - Most of the time he brought his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him buy his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, occasionally. I don't think so.
Mr. BALL - I don't understand.
Mr. JARMAN - I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.
Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?
Mr. JARMAN - I think once or twice he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald brought or bought any lunch on November 22nd, let alone a cheese sandwich and an apple.
Seems occasionally he bought his lunch from the truck according to Jarman.....maybe he did that day. See Piper's comment above "out to eat". Perhaps he is guilty of not bringing his lunch with him that day.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the
domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
Fritz's notes stated "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."
Fritz's report stated Oswald "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."
Bookhout's report stated Oswald "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."
Kelley's report stated Oswald "said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as ‘Junior,’ a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."
(Hosty’s note that Bart reproduces has Oswald getting his drink from the second-floor lunchroom before returning to the domino room to eat lunch but says nothing about Jarman and Norman.)
Thus, two sources report Oswald as saying he ate with Jarman and Norman. One says they “walked through the room.” One says they “came in.”
Thus, three of four sources indicate Jarman and Norman were actually in the domino room with Oswald.
It appears that Fritz’s “came in” note is being interpreted as meaning Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they “came in” the loading dock door at about 12:25 while he was eating in the domino room. In light of the other three sources, this interpretation is completely unwarranted and seems unlikely given the eating arrangements in the domino room and the sight line from there to the loading dock entrance.
We have no recordings of the interrogation sessions or any signed statement by the accused. Therefore the recollections of various witnesses it all that can be interpreted. We have no stenographic record of the exact questions asked or answered, therefore the best we have is a form of “Chinese whispers” interpretation of the response by Oswald.
What appears to be unquestioned is that he mentioned the domino room and Jarman and Norman specifically. If he was trying to establish a believable alibi it makes no sense for him to have claimed he ate lunch with them if they were not there. Too easy to get statements from them denying such a claim. As we have seen from the above testimonies it was normal for “all of them” to be in the domino room at lunch time. This was not an ordinary lunchtime though. The President was going to pass by the building so of all those workers who would be expected to be watching the motorcade at that time, how did Oswald know those two would be walking by the domino room and into the back door on their way to the elevators?
I believe the key to this is the wording of Bookout’s report. Having those two “walking through the room” to someone who knows the layout of the first floor makes no sense. However if one substitutes the word “through” with “by” the scenario of Oswald sitting in the lunch room and noticing them passing through the window becomes a possibility.
Some CTers suggest that Oswald actually saw Jarman and Norman through the domino room window when they were on the sidewalk outside the loading dock, which doesn’t fit any of the four sources. (And what about conspiracy saint Carolyn Arnold, who decided years after the event that she had seen Oswald eating in the second-floor lunchroom? Oops.)
See above…….the four “sources” all differ to some degree…..the key to this is the fact he referred to two specific individuals at a place and time one would not expect them to be….at the rear of the TSBD about the time the President was expected to pass the front of the building.
Query: Why would the nefarious Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley (and Hosty) even have reported these statements by Oswald? Why would they not have made sure their notes and reports included no possible alibi for Oswald? Again, we see the familiar game of the conspirators being geniuses at steps 1-3-5 and dolts at steps 2-4-8.
Not even worth replying to by really serious CT with an IQ above room temperature. None of them were comparatists to the assassination. At the time the notes were not freely available and quite frankly did not know what we know now about the sequence of events. THE WC myth regarding the events was “in production” some months after they were created.
Moreover (as DVP would point out if he were here), this interpretation views the Domino Room Alibi in a vacuum and ignores a boatload of inconvenient evidence, including Oswald’s curious trip to Irving on Thursday, Frazier’s testimony that Oswald did not bring a lunch, the existence of the sixth floor sniper’s nest with Oswald’s rifle in it, the complete lack of evidence of any other gunmen in the building or being observed leaving the building, the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald’s inexplicable actions after the assassination, and Oswald’s failure, despite multiple opportunities, to scream to reporters and everyone else within earshot “I was eating in the first floor lunchroom, for God’s sake!!! After that I was standing on the front steps with Shelley and all the other employees!!!”
Oh dear……the “classic” LN lament……well it doesn’t matter anyway because we know he did it. Please, those that troll this line out should simply disappear from fora that consider themselves serious about “debating” evidence in order to further understanding of the events.
For this alibi to work, an almost incredible number of people from diverse walks of life would have to have been conspirators or accessories after the fact. Which, of course, they were – if one is neck-deep in the Conspiracy Game. But even then, you’re left with all of the other evidence that would become inexplicable if the alibi were true.
More drivel…..
Put the Domino Room Alibi outside the TSBD if you like – but I probably wouldn’t put it in stone. Maybe you can hire a homeless guy to hold a cardboard sign?
I previously caused a furor by referencing some of the peer-reviewed literature on the conspiracy mindset. I won't wade into those waters again, but it would be very enlightening for you to study some of the professional literature (of which there is a mountain) regarding the psychology and unreliability of eyewitness testimony and specifically recollections of highly traumatic events. You will learn that the wildly conflicting stories and timelines, far from being evidence of conspiracies and lies, are exactly what we would expect if the witnesses were telling the truth to the best of their ability.
No one doubts the issues with relying on uncorroborated witness observations/statements that are uncorroborated. Then again, why do you ignore numerous testimonies when they are essentially in agreement for events and just make crap up to fit your narrative, like the lunch room observations of TSBD workers above become Oswald seldom ate lunch in the Domino room?
As new member Sean DeGrilla points out in his recent book Malcontent, which I did buy and read, Oswald's words and actions are exactly what we would expect from someone who was guilty.
Observations of a cop…..no need for a courts anymore from a lawyer is priceless, just “book ‘em Dano”. I heard that guy on an interview on Lone Gunman podcast……didn’t even know it was Givens who was missing and not allowed back inside….there is no doubt that Oswald was guilty of something…..the question is what exactly.
My original analysis of Lance's post on the EF as referenced by David. You will note there is no reference to his profession. I am happy to debate my rebuttal with anyone who wishes to.
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My original analysis of Lance's post on the EF as referenced by David. You will note there is no reference to his profession. I am happy to debate my rebuttal with anyone who wishes to.
Colin,
Regarding your opening statement, do you feel you prevericate more than Oswald did?
About the same amount?
Less?
How much less?
-- MWT ;)
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My original analysis of Lance's post on the EF as referenced by David. You will note there is no reference to his profession. I am happy to debate my rebuttal with anyone who wishes to.
"He might walk in ..." [emphasis added], suggesting that he didn't do it often.
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Colin,
Regarding your opening statement, do you feel you prevericate more than Oswald did?
About the same amount?
Less?
How much less?
-- MWT ;)
I said lies, prevarications can also be evasive/misleading responses. Hard to give you an answer without knowing how many he told per day. Is it the absolute number of lies or percentage of statements that are untrue? If you can tell me his numbers I could give you an answer. Then again I might not be truthful, how would you know?
Do you dispute my claim that everyone lies? Lance's claim that Oswald was a liar was central to his opening argument.
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"He might walk in ..." [emphasis added], suggesting that he didn't do it often.
Lance"s statement.....
"The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman. Almost every day, in fact. But very seldom by Oswald."
The evidence to back this up is?
-
My original analysis of Lance's post on the EF as referenced by David. You will note there is no reference to his profession. I am happy to debate my rebuttal with anyone who wishes to.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over [at the] coffee table where they make coffee. (emphasis added)
It's interesting that Jarman put the word again in that sentence.
Had he already mentioned in his testimony something to the effect that ... gasp ... Oswald liked to eat [in solitide?] at the coffee table?
(IDK -- I haven't read his testimony recently. Should I?)
-- MWT ;)
-
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over [at the] coffee table where they make coffee. (emphasis added)
It's interesting that Jarman puts the word "again" in there. Had he already mentioned in his testimony something to the effect that Oswald liked to eat [in solitide?] at the coffee table?
(IDK -- I haven't read his testimony recently. Should I?)
-- MWT ;)
Why make up another factoid about coffee table solitude? He would not be in solitude there.
Why did you exclude Givens testimony?
Show me something that warrants "But very seldom by Oswald"
-
Lance"s statement.....
"The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman. Almost every day, in fact. But very seldom by Oswald."
The evidence to back this up is?
Isn't my "not very often," above, analogous to David's "very seldom"?
Do you contend that Jarman's use of the phrase "might walk in" doesn't signify "occasionally"/"not very often"/"very seldom," in spite of the fact that Jarman doesn't continue with, "... and eat with us," but says, "... and lay around for awhile, and then walk out" (or words that effect), instead?
-- MWT ;)
-
Isn't my "not very often," above, analogous to David's "very seldom"?
Do you contend that Jarman's use of the phrase "might walk in" doesn't signify "occasionally"/"not very often"/"very seldom," in spite of the fact that Jarman doesn't continue with, "... and eat with us," but says, "... and lay around for awhile, and then walk out" (or words that effect), instead?
-- MWT ;)
It was Lance's quote not David's.....
Here are the posted testimonies, Arce, Jarman and Givens.....you are the linguist, make a case from these for the use of very seldom.
"rarely, infrequently, on rare occasions, hardly ever, scarcely ever, hardly, scarcely, almost never, (every) once in a while, only now and then, not often, only occasionally, sporadically; informalonce in a blue moon"
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
I contend that the use of "might" in Arce's testimony relates to describing his behaviour of only staying in the domino room for short periods.
-
Why make up another factoid about coffee table solitude? He would not be in solitude there.
Why did you exclude Givens testimony?
Show me something that warrants "But very seldom by Oswald"
Why should I include anything from anyone else's testimony while I'm attempting to parse Jarman's testimony?
Question: Why do you think Jarman used the word "again" in that sentence?
To suggest that Oswald would eat two lunches, or that he'd occasionally eat part of his lunch while watching the fast and furious action in the domino room, and then, in order to bring his blood pressure back down, go over to the less-hectic (perhaps even vacant) coffee table to finish 'er off?
Any other possibilities, like maybe Jarman's using (the gerund takes the possessive) the word "again" was analogous to kids these days sayin' "you know," again and again?
-- MWT ;)
PS How many other people would regularly eat their lunch at the coffee table?
PPS Maybe Oswald preferred eating alone, and whever there was someone else chowin' down at the coffee table, he'd go into the domino room until they were finished pigging out?
-
Why should I include anything from anyone else's testimony while I'm attempting to parse Jarman's testimony?
Question: Why do you think Jarman used the word "again" in that sentence?
To suggest that Oswald would eat two lunches, or that he'd occasionally eat part of his lunch while watching the fast and furious action in the domino room, and then, in order to bring his blood pressure back down, go over to the less-hectic (perhaps even vacant) coffee table to finish 'er off?
Any other possibilities, like maybe Jarman's using (the gerund takes the possessive) the word "again" was analogous to kids these days sayin' "you know," again and again?
-- MWT ;)
PS How many other people would regularly eat their lunch at the coffee table?
Maybe Oswald preferred eating alone, and whever there was someone else chowin' down at the coffee table, he'd go into the domino room until they were finished pigging out?
He used again as simply an expression indicatIng an alternate location on the first floor. Maybe interpret the testimonies as written....and corroborated that use of the word seldom by Lance was not warranted and unsupported.
I gather you have conceded my contention that all humans lie.....given your failure to respond to my last post.
PS at least one other testified he always ate at the wrapping table (where the coffee pot was). Do you know who he was?
PPS.....above makes your PPS in error.
PPPS....the use of seldom is erroneous
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He used again as simply an expression indicatIng an alternate location on the first floor. Maybe interpret the testimonies as written....and corroborated that use of the word seldom by Lance was not warranted and unsupported.
I gather you have conceded my contention that all humans lie.....given your failure to respond to my last post.
You wanna declare yourself "the winner," Colin?
Go right ahead.
LOL
Regardless, which "last post" of yours are you referring to?
-- MWT ;)
PS Is someone who has a high verbal intelligence by definition "a linguist" in your fevered mind?
PPS When you're bombarding a 70 year-old guy with questions and demands at 4 in the morning, and he can't seem to keep up with you (nice strategy, btw), does that constitute a "failure" on his part, Iacoletti I mean Crow?
PPPS Wanna pull an all-nighter? (The Chargers' game doesn't start until 10, Cali time.)
-
I said lies, prevarications can also be evasive/misleading responses. Hard to give you an answer without knowing how many he told per day. Is it the absolute number of lies or percentage of statements that are untrue? If you can tell me his numbers I could give you an answer. Then again I might not be truthful, how would you know?
Do you dispute my claim that everyone lies? Lance's claim that Oswald was a liar was central to his opening argument.
I've never lied.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
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Why make up another factoid about coffee table solitude? He would not be in solitude there.
Why did you exclude Givens testimony?
Show me something that warrants "But very seldom by Oswald"
I only posited it as a plausible possibility, pussycat.
-
You wanna declare yourself "the winner," Colin?
Go right ahead.
LOL
Regardless, which "last post" of yours are you referring to?
-- MWT ;)
PS Is someone who has a high verbal intelligence by definition "a linguist" in your fevered mind?
PPS When you're bombarding a 70 year-old guy with questions and demands at 4 in the morning, and he can't seem to keep up with you (nice strategy, btw), does that constitute a "failure" on his part, Iacoletti I mean Crow?
PPPS Wanna pull an all-nighter? (The Chargers' game doesn't start until 10, Cali time.)
Ok I am the winner.... :)
The post that contained this..."Do you dispute my claim that everyone lies?" It was not the "last post" as indicated...my bad, should have used previous.
I believe I answered your questions to the best of my ability.
What makes you think I live in your Timezone? Did you listen to any of the podcast provided in the link?
-
I contend that the use of "might" in Arce's testimony relates to describing his behaviour of only staying in the domino room for short periods.
I beg to differ with your so-called "interpretation".
-- MWT ;)
-
I've never lied.
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
Liar! ;D
-
I beg to differ with your so-called "interpretation".
-- MWT ;)
Opinions are like a$$holes......every forum has them.
-
I only posited it as a plausible possibility, pussycat.
I think you are a cunning liguist.
-
Ok I am the winner.... :)
The post that contained this..."Do you dispute my claim that everyone lies?" It was not the "last post" as indicated...my bad, should have used previous.
I believe I answered your questions to the best of my ability.
What makes you think I live in your Timezone? Did you listen to any of the podcast provided in the link?
What makes you think I care about the time zone you live in Brian I mean Colin?
Self-centered much?
-- MWT ;)
-
I think you are a cunning liguist.
If you only knew.
-- MWT ;)
PS I take that as a compliment, btw, even though you were probably just trying to be "witty".
-
What makes you think I care about the time zone you live in Brian I mean Colin?
Paranoid much?
-- MWT ;)
You mentioned "all nighter". Forget? Who is Brian? Senile much?
-
Opinions are like a$$holes......every forum has them.
I hadn't noticed.
-
A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.
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A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.
Seems to be "the ball's in your court" to prove that it isn't.
-- MWT ;)
-
Senile much?
Bunghole much?
-- MWT ;)
-
Seems to be "the ball's in your court" to prove that it isn't.
-- MWT ;)
Already posted 3 employees testimony.....and Lance has? I might suggest squat.
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Already posted 3 employees testimony.....and Lance has? I might suggest squat.
Three testimonies that can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways and in different permutations.
You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ...
-- MWT ;)
-
Three testimonies that can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways and in different permutations.
You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ...
-- MWT ;)
How does my interpretation "exonerate" Oswald?
He normally ate his lunch with some of his workmates, sometimes in the domino room and sometimes on the coffee table. Might I suggest a reading of those employees testimonies that Oswald generally seems to hang around more with the African Americans at lunchtime. Certainly not Frazier or Lovelady. Perhaps Dougherty. Could it be that he did so because that was where the newspapers bought by Jarman were located.
-
How does my interpretation "exonerate" Oswald?
He normally ate his lunch with some of his workmates, sometimes in the domino room and sometimes on the coffee table. Might I suggest a reading of those employees testimonies that Oswald generally seems to hang around more with the African Americans at lunchtime. Certainly not Frazier or Lovelady. Perhaps Dougherty. Could it be that he did so because that was where the newspapers bought by Jarman were located.
You say normally, I say probably almost never, and never the twain shall meet.
He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory.
-- MWT ;)
https://wikidiff.com/mull/chew
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You say normally, I say probably almost never, and never the twain shall meet.
He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory.
-- MWT ;)
https://wikidiff.com/mull/chew
And how does my interpretation "exonerate" Oswald as you claim?
PS I hope Duncan appreciates the 127 guests we have attracted Thomas.
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And how does my interpretation "exonerate" Oswald as you claim?
PS I hope Duncan appreciates the 127 guests we have attracted Thomas.
Colin,
Funny, that's what I was going to ask you.
128
129 ...
What do you mean, "we"?
(You and Michael Clark should duke it out sometime and see if you can pull in twenty.)
LOL
-- MWT ;)
-
Colin,
Funny, that's what I was going to ask you.
-- MWT ;)
128
PPS What do you mean, "we"?
129 ...
It doesn’t. I never claimed it did. Lance postulated in an unsupported claim was that it was somehow behind Oswald's mention of Jarman and Norman under interrogation.
Care to explain why you thought to post this?
You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ...
I prefer interpretations that are supported by corroborated documented evidence. I have supplied such. Didn't see any by Lance. I am sure he appreciates you championing his cause, even if seemingly abandoned by David.
PS How could I claim full credit Tommy? Would you?
-
You say normally, I say probably almost never, and never the twain shall meet.
He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory.
-- MWT ;)
https://wikidiff.com/mull/chew
::)
"He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory."
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shellylho.gif)
-
::)
"He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory."
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/shellylho.gif)
Which "lounge" is Shelley referring to?
Did Shelley normally eat lunch in the Domino Room?
-- MWT ;)
-
You say normally, I say probably almost never, and never the twain shall meet.
He probably almost always ate alone, mulling his cheese sandwiches and masticating Marxist-Lenist theory.
-- MWT ;)
https://wikidiff.com/mull/chew
How do you know he was a Marxist Tommy?
-
Which "lounge" is Shelley referring to?
Did Shelley normally eat lunch in the Domino Room?
-- MWT ;)
Don't know.
But Shelly said Ozzie would bring his own lunch and usually eat with them in the lounge.
Just pointing out that your post stating "he probably almost always ate alone" is wrong.
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Don't know.
But Shelly said Ozzie would bring his own lunch and usually eat with them in the lounge.
Just pointing out that your post stating "he probably almost always ate alone" is wrong.
I had already posted this Gary....
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
Tommy was defending the unsupported claim by Lance the lawyer on EF, introduced here by DVP, that Oswald seldom ate his lunch with Jarman and Norman.
-
How do you know he was a Marxist Tommy?
What does it matter what I say (e.g., his telling Aline Mosby in Moscow that he'd gotten a "Justice for the Rosenbergs!" pamphlet from an old lady in N.Y.C. when he was an impressionable kid, that Nelson Delgado testified that he was teaching himself Russian and reading Das Kapital while in the Marine Corps, that he admitted on TV -- or was it the radio? -- that he was a Marxist, etc, etc) when I know there's a good chance that you (or somebody here) will say "evil, evil, evil" James JESUS Angleton put him up to it, or the "evil, evil, evil" CIA somehow (via Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites?) concocted all those things so we could ... gasp ... cover up the assassination AND nuke the livin' bejezus outta the USSR and/or invade Cuba after the "evil, evil, evil" CIA had killed John Kennedy, ironically, a charasmatic, staunch anti-Communist president who could "sell" anti-Communism to the Third World?
LOL
Short answer -- Because Oswald killed charasmatic anti-Communist John Kennedy in order to bring into power ugly, ugly, ugly (in more ways than one) Lyndon Baines Johnson and ... gulp ... hasten "The Dialectic"!
D'oh
-- MWT ;)
https://100years.upi.com/sta_1963-11-23b.html
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I had already posted this Gary....
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
Tommy was defending the unsupported claim by Lance the lawyer on EF, introduced here by DVP, that Oswald seldom ate his lunch with Jarman and Norman.
Thumb1:
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What does it matter what I say (e.g., his telling Aline Mosby in Moscow that he'd gotten a "Justice for the Rosenbergs!" pamphlet from an old lady in N.Y.C. when he was a kid, that Nelson Delgado testified that Oswald was reading Das Kapital while in the Marine Corps, that he admitted on TV -- or was it the radio? -- that he was a Marxist, etc, etc) when I know there's a good chance you (or somebody) will say "evil, evil, evil" James Angleton put him up to it, or the evil, evil, evil CIA somehow (Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites?) concocted all those things so we could nuke the USSR and/or invade Cuba after the "evil, evil, evil" CIA had killed Kennedy (ironicallu, a charasmatic, anti-communist president who could "sell" anti-communism to the Third World)?
LOL
Short answer -- Because Oswald killed the above-described president in order to bring into power Johnson and hasten "The Dialectic".
-- MWT ;)
https://100years.upi.com/sta_1963-11-23b.html
I don’t know if he was or wasn’t.....being a bald-faced liar and all......who knows.
FWIW I am not a believer in H&L or a large conspiracy of any kind. However, because I am not totally convinced by the evidence presented by the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone I am bundled, by those that are, into the amorphous and unsophisticated labelling as a CT, whatever that means.
-
I don’t know if he was or wasn’t.....being a bald-faced liar and all......who knows.
FWIW I am not a believer in H&L or a large conspiracy of any kind. However, because I am not totally convinced by the evidence presented by the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone I am bundled, by those that are, into the amorphous and unsophisticated labelling as a CT, whatever that means.
You, or him?
(LOL)
Regardless, why do you always take things so personally, Brian I mean Colin?
-- MWT ;)
PS I'm going to bed, now, if that's okay. I hope you guys knock yourselves out while I'm sleeping...
-
You, or him?
(LOL)
Regardless, why do you always take things so personally, Brian I mean Colin?
-- MWT ;)
I think you got my point about Oswald the bald faced liar (according to Lance).
Do you always post claims about others and then fail to address them when repeatedly requested to do so?
Like the one below.....
"You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ..."
To be honest, until now I have not paid your contributions to the debate much attention.
-
I think you got my point about Oswald the bald faced liar (according to Lance).
Do you always post claims about others and then fail to address them when repeatedly requested to do so?
Like the one below.....
"You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ..."
To be honest, until now I have not paid your contributions to the debate much attention.
Repeatedly?
It would appear that hyperbole is your self-perceived "forte".
-
Repeatedly?
It would appear that hyperbole is your self-perceived "forte".
I count 3 successive posts by me on this page....
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.120.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.120.html)
Perhaps you could suggest a more appropriate alternative descriptor...
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I count 3 successive posts by me on this page....
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.120.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.120.html)
Perhaps you could suggest a more appropriate alternative descriptor...
How many different questions are there therein that haven't already haven't attempted to answer?
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It doesn’t. I never claimed it did. Lance postulated in an unsupported claim was that it was somehow behind Oswald's mention of Jarman and Norman under interrogation.
Care to explain why you thought to post this?
You seem to prefer the interpretations which you believe exonerate Oswald ...
I prefer interpretations that are supported by corroborated documented evidence. I have supplied such. Didn't see any by Lance. I am sure he appreciates you championing his cause, even if seemingly abandoned by David.
PS How could I claim full credit Tommy? Would you?
Well, Oh Great Communicator, if you want me to speak for Lance, I would have to say that (going from memory here) Oswald was either in the Domino Room until about 12:26, or he wasn't in the Domino Room at all around lunch time, and took a calculated risk in uttering to the authorities, afterwards, that he'd seen "Junior" and another Negro pass through a section of the first floor during lunchtime.
Will that suffice?
-- MWT ;)
-
How many different questions are there therein that haven't already haven't attempted to answer?
Inability to address again noted. I guess I could have used successive instead.....
-
Well, Oh Great Communicator, if you want me to speak for Lance, I would have to say that (going from memory here) Oswald was either in the Domino Room until about 12:26, or he wasn't in the Domino Room at all around lunch time, and took a calculated risk in uttering to the authorities, afterwards, that he'd seen "Junior" and another Negro pass through a section of the first floor during lunchtime.
Will that suffice?
-- MWT ;)
I don’t want you to speak on Lance's behalf, you chose to join in to defend his legal reputation. Then his unsupported use of the word "seldom" to promote the rather puerile notion that by mentioning Jarman and Norman having lunch with him, would provide some form of alibi for Oswald.
Perhaps you could theorise why Bookout wrote that Oswald claimed they walked through the lunch room.
-
Inability to address again noted. I guess I could have used successive instead.....
Yes, proper syntax, grammar and vocabulary are essential, especially when trying to talk one's way out of a DUI, which I did four times, iirc, while I was still imbibing.
Care to rephrase the question (or was there more than one)?
-- MWT ;)
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I don’t want you to speak on Lance's behalf, you chose to join in to defend his legal reputation. Then his unsupported use of the word "seldom" to promote the rather puerile notion that by mentioning Jarman and Norman having lunch with him, would provide some form of alibi for Oswald.
Perhaps you could theorise (sic; British English?) why Bookout wrote that Oswald claimed they walked through the lunch room.
To pull "An Iacoletti," your saying it's unsupported doesn't make it so.
LOL
Question: In which "lounge" did William H. Shelley normally eat lunch? The first-floor Domino Room, or the elegant Second-Floor Lunch Room?
Did he specify, or did anyone else (for him) for that matter?
Warning: That's not a rhetorical question.
-- MWT ;)
-
Yes, proper syntax, grammar and vocabulary are essential, especially when trying to talk one's way out of a DUI, which I did four times, iirc, while I was still imbibing.
Care to rephrase the question (or was there more than one)?
-- MWT ;)
Your first sentence explains a lot.....I won’t bother you in future.
PS You might let Lance know that Troy West was a better candidate for a phony Oswald alibi. Anyone who had bothered to analyse the testimonies would understand why.
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Your first sentence explains a lot.....I won’t bother you in future.
PS You might let Lance know that Troy West was a better candidate for a phony Oswald alibi. Anyone who had bothered to analyse the testimonies would understand why.
Really? Explains what, exactly, Crow?
That you don't have a sense of humor?
Why the perpetual "attitude"?
FYI, I'm not in contact with Lance, seein' as how I'm no longer a member of the so-called Education Forum, I can't find him on Facebook, and I don't have his e-mail address.
Could you please get it for me?
As regards Bookhout, I suppose Oswald might have brazenly told him that he had seen Jarman and another Negro (Norman?) walking past the D.R. during lunchtime. Since they evidently enjoyed slappin' the bones down, I would imagine that they would be in or around the D.R. from time-to-time, wouldn't you?
Another possibility is that Oswald, quiet as a mouse in the S.N., could hear Jarman and Norman "carryin' on," perhaps, one floor below him, and knew they must have walked past the D.R. to get there.
-- MWT ;)
PS I reiterate, what's with the attitude, Crow?
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does Lance really practice law[,] David?
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25995-a-beginners-guide-to-the-conspiracy-game/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-405885
and...
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22280-lance-payette/?tab=comments#comment-315239
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...maybe Jarman's using...the word "again" was analogous to kids these days sayin' "you know," again and again?
Or maybe it's similar to bus driver Cecil McWatters' continual use of the term "in other words".*
* For today's hunk of "Incredible (Albeit Meaningless) Assassination-Related Trivia" (pertaining to Mr. McWatters), click the
link below: 😁
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html#Cecil-McWatters-In-Other-Words
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A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.
Although I can't be sure, it could be that Lance Payette's "very seldom" remark concerning Oswald eating lunch in the Domino Room was derived from this testimony provided by TSBD worker Billy Lovelady [at 6 H 337 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174a.htm)]....
Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.
Now, given the fact that Oswald was employed at the Book Depository for a little more than five weeks (27 work days to be exact* [October 16—November 22], not counting any Saturdays [and in his 2002 interview (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66zFAvTgxxISUhXaldpNmN2QmM/view) with Gary Mack, Wesley Frazier did say that the warehouse workers would sometimes work on Saturday]), I would say that "two or three times" (out of a possible 27) would, indeed, qualify as "very seldom".
* The above figure of "27 work days" does not include the date of Monday, November 11th, 1963, which was a federal holiday (Veterans Day), and we know that Lee Oswald spent that whole day at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas.
Perry.....your witness. 😁
-
Perhaps you could theorise why Bookout wrote that Oswald claimed they walked through the lunch room.
Colin, I talked about this in my reply to David (page 6), inserted below
I guess he missed it, as he never replied to it.
I agree with everything you just said, Martin.
My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time here.
Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
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Although I can't be sure, it could be that Lance Payette's "very seldom" remark concerning Oswald eating lunch in the Domino Room was derived from this testimony provided by TSBD worker Billy Lovelady [at 6 H 337 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174a.htm)]....
Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.
Now, given the fact that Oswald was employed at the Book Depository for a little more than five weeks (27 work days to be exact* [October 16—November 22], not counting any Saturdays [and in his 2002 interview (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66zFAvTgxxISUhXaldpNmN2QmM/view) with Gary Mack, Wesley Frazier did say that the warehouse workers would sometimes work on Saturday]), I would say that "two or three times" (out of a possible 27) would, indeed, qualify as "very seldom".
* The above figure of "27 work days" does not include the date of Monday, November 11th, 1963, which was a federal holiday (Veterans Day), and we know that Lee Oswald spent that whole day at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas.
Perry.....your witness. 😁
Maybe you missed .......
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
We also have the statement from Shelley posted by Gary Craig earlier.
If he was basing his "very seldom" remark on Lovelady's comments, why not support his assertion with them? In any event Lovelady's comments are in answer to a question where Oswald ate lunch with him. Seems Lovelady did not eat regularly in the domino room and he was merely relating the number of times he saw Oswald in there.
None of the statements above, from those employees who always ate in the domino room, and therefore best placed to comment, would support the use of "very seldom". I would expect a more considered approach from someone with his background.
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Colin, I talked about this in my reply to David (page 6), inserted below
I guess he missed it, as he never replied to it.
Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
Martin, a couple of points to consider.
First we have this.....
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Truly is referring to Givens, Jarman and Norman here, so, the latter two had walked some distance in a SE direction, across Houston, with Givens before turning back. Therefore they would be more visible to someone inside the building, on a higher floor, facing Elm.
Second is that Williams was still on the sixth floor and remained there until they arrived on the 5th. Perhaps the LN team can place Oswald somewhere he could observe Jarman and Norman at about 12.20pm
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Maybe you missed .......
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?
Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir
How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)
If he was basing his "very seldom" remark on Lovelady's comments, why not support his assertion with them? In any event Lovelady's comments are in answer to a question where Oswald ate lunch with him. Seems Lovelady did not eat regularly in the domino room and he was merely relating the number of times he saw Oswald in there.
Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174b.htm)]....
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
[DVP's emphasis.]
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How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)
Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174b.htm)]....
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
[DVP's emphasis.]
So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".
And what to make of Truly.....
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?
Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention: Offhand, it seemed to be not too much---a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing. Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.
Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.
And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.
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How could I have possibly missed them? You've repeated them three or four times now. :)
Wrong. Lovelady told the Warren Commission that the place he "generally" ate his lunch was in the "domino room" [at 6 H 338 (https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174b.htm)]....
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
[DVP's emphasis.]
David,
A nit-picky question: Lovelady went over to where to get his lunch?
If the D.R., then he evidently took his lunch with him from there when he went upstairs to get the ice-cold coke-cola because, smart cookie that he was, he was keeping his lunch-eatin' options open, and his fall-back plan was to lug it back downstairs to the D.R. to eat it.
In other words, why not just leave his dang lunch in the D.R., go get the coke-cola, then go back to the D.R. to eat the dang thing?
-- MWT ;)
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So my counter would be Arce, Jarman and Givens, throw in Shelley's "usually"......vs Lovelady.....doesn’t justify "very seldom".
OK. You might very well be correct on this point, Colin. I was merely providing a possible answer (re: "references") to this question that you asked me....
A question to the original poster DVP. Do you think that Lance's use of the word "seldom" is supported by the evidence? If yes, please provide any references that support its use.
I provided a reference (Lovelady's testimony).
That's all. (FWIW.)
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@ David von Pein,
Could I have a reply to the points I have raised?
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David,
A nit-picky question: Lovelady went over to where to get his lunch?
If the D.R., then he evidently took his lunch with him from there when he went upstairs to get the ice-cold coke-cola because, smart cookie that he was, he was keeping his lunch-eatin' options open, and his fall-back plan was to lug it back downstairs to the D.R. to eat it.
In other words, why not just leave his dang lunch in the D.R., go get the coke-cola, then go back to the D.R. to eat the dang thing?
Fair point, Tommy.
Maybe Lovelady was afraid that that skinflint, penny-pinching new guy named Lee was going to come into the room and swipe his lunch. So Billy decided to take it with him to the second floor for safe-keeping. (Can't be too careful, after all.) :)
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Fair point, Tommy.
Maybe Lovelady was afraid that that skinflint, penny-pinching new guy named Lee was going to come into the room and swipe his lunch. So Billy decided to take it with him to the second floor for safe-keeping. (Can't be too careful, after all.) :)
Thanks, David.
1) So, you confess, do you, that Lance Payette committed the heinous crime of saying "very seldom" when he should have said "seldom," or "occasionally," or some-such thing?
2) Martin Weidmann is demanding that you answer his question.
3) TCU is beating Purdue 10 to 6 at Purdue.
-- MWT ;)
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OK. You might very well be correct on this point, Colin. I was merely providing a possible answer (re: "references") to this question that you asked me....
I provided a reference (Lovelady's testimony).
That's all. (FWIW.)
Thank you.
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Sorry for the delay, Martin....
Fair enough, but then there is this; according to some interrogation reports Oswald made some vague comment about two negros being in (or walking through) the room where he was. Unfortunately, we don't really know what Oswald actually said verbatim, so we have to rely on the notes made by the interrogators and their choice of words for writing it in their report. However, having said that, I think that the combined reports do clearly suggest that Oswald did in fact make some comment about negros being in (or walking through) the room.
So, as he identified one of them by name, some time ago, I tried to establish a timeline for the movements of Jarman and Norman prior to their arrival at the 5th floor, and the conclusion was that these two men did indeed pass through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) just minutes prior to the shooting. I am aware of the LN theory that Oswald first saw Jarman and Norman from the 6th floor window and later heard them talking (and identifying them) below him, which is why he concocted the story of seeing both men, but IMO that's a very weak narrative for two reasons; (1) During my visit to the TSBD, some years ago, I tried to look down to where I understood Norman and Jarman were supposed to have been and found it impossible to see that location from there and (2) if Oswald was able to identify both men by the sound of their voice, IMO those men on the 5th floor should also have been able to hear the movement on the floor above them, prior to the shots, which they didn't!
Which leaves me with a bit of a mystery. If I am being kind to Oswald, I could argue that he was indeed in the Domino room when he saw Norman and Jarman enter the loading area and walking towards the elevators, which means that it is possible that the interrogators simply were not precise enough in their reports.
So, here's the question; since we have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Norman and Jarman made it to the 5th floor, why are the LNs fighting so hard to ridicule and dismiss the scenario I have just outlined based on nothing else than those vague (and possibly wrong or incomplete) remarks in the interrogation reports?
There are numerous possibilities here:
1. Oswald could have just simply guessed (correctly) when he said to Fritz he had seen Jarman & Norman on the 1st floor. After all, we know for a fact that both Jarman and Norman DID see (and talk to) Oswald a little earlier in the morning on the first floor. So Lee knew that both men did come to work that day. And there weren't THAT many warehouse workers to choose from (via a "wild guess" scenario). And maybe Oswald had seen Jarman & Norman together on previous days and assumed they hung out together. ~shrug~
2. Oswald could have actually been in the Domino Room shortly before 12:30 and could have physically seen J&N. (I don't think this is the correct solution, but I can't entirely discount it either.)
And how about this possibility....
3. I'm wondering if it's just remotely possible (due to the open windows on both the 5th and 6th floors) that Oswald could have leaned out of his SN window, looked down toward the fifth floor, and caught a glimpse of Jarman & Norman leaning out of their respective windows below him? (Granted, this is probably not a likely solution---especially since Oswald would not likely want to "advertise" his presence in the Sniper's Nest by leaning out of his window---but can it be ruled out entirely?) ~additional shrug~
More food for thought anyway.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UtrJBnjdnc0/XXqUC5SaY0I/AAAAAAABSnI/Roy7y39pfKoNrrMIa9IUsGid_W3slifWQCLcBGAsYHQ/s700/Dillard-Photo-Zoomed.jpg)
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* The above figure of "27 work days" does not include the date of Monday, November 11th, 1963, which was a federal holiday (Veterans Day), and we know that Lee Oswald spent that whole day at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas.
You mean to say he came out to Irving on a day that wasn’t a Friday?
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Sorry for the delay, Martin....
There are numerous possibilities here:
Oswald could have just simply guessed (correctly) when he said to Fritz he had seen Jarman & Norman on the 1st floor. (After all, we know for a fact that both Jarman and Norman DID see (and talk to) Oswald a little earlier in the morning on the first floor. So Lee knew that both men did come to work that day. And there weren't THAT many warehouse workers to choose from (via a "wild guess" scenario). And maybe Oswald had seen Jarman & Norman together on previous days and assumed they hung out together.
Oswald could have actually been in the Domino Room shortly before 12:30 and could have physically seen J&N. (I don't think this is the correct solution, but I can't entirely discount it either.)
And how about this possibility....
I'm wondering if it's just remotely possible (due to the OPEN windows on both the 5th and 6th floors) that Oswald could have leaned out of his SN window, looked down toward the fifth floor, and cauight a glimpse of Jarman & Norman below him? This is probably not a likely solution---especially since Oswald would not likely want to "advertise" his presence in the Sniper's Nest by leaning out of his window---but can it be ruled out entirely?
More food for thought.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UtrJBnjdnc0/XXqUC5SaY0I/AAAAAAABSnI/Roy7y39pfKoNrrMIa9IUsGid_W3slifWQCLcBGAsYHQ/s700/Dillard-Photo-Zoomed.jpg)
Do you think that Oswald claimed he ate lunch in the Domino room with them as any attempt to provide a believable alibi?
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You mean to say he came out to Irving on a day that wasn’t a Friday?
No. He didn't COME OUT to Irving with Frazier on Monday, 11/11. Lee merely STAYED at Ruth's house for an extra day.
And there WAS one time he DID travel to Irving that wasn't a Friday. It was on Monday, October 21 (the day after his new baby was born).
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No. He didn't COME OUT to Irving with Frazier on Monday, 11/11. Lee merely STAYED at Ruth's house for an extra day.
And there WAS one time he DID travel to Irving that wasn't a Friday. It was on Monday, October 21 (the day after his new baby was born).
Thanks. I knew there was another non-Friday that he came out.
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Do you think that Oswald claimed he ate lunch in the Domino room with them as any attempt to provide a believable alibi?
Well, yes, of course that was LHO's aim. To try and garner an "alibi". What else?
But that attempted alibi goes up in smoke by taking just one look at this picture (which contains BOTH of Lee's "alibi" companions)....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UtrJBnjdnc0/XXqUC5SaY0I/AAAAAAABSnI/Roy7y39pfKoNrrMIa9IUsGid_W3slifWQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/Dillard-Photo-Zoomed.jpg)
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Do you think that Oswald claimed he ate lunch in the Domino room with them as any attempt to provide a believable alibi?
Yeah, I see what you're getting at, Colin. My "Number 3" scenario in my earlier post doesn't make much sense then, does it?
So I guess I'll have to scrap that #3 suggestion above....unless somebody can come up with a theory in which Oswald wants to be believed about having lunch on the first floor with Jarman & Norman at the time when JFK is being shot AND also knows that J&N weren't on the first floor at 12:30 at all. (That would kind of make Oswald out to be a bit on the INSANE and FREAKIN' NUTS side, wouldn't it?)
Good catch there, Colin. Thanks. :)
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Well, yes, of course that was LHO's aim. To try and garner an "alibi". What else?
But that attempted alibi goes up in smoke by taking just one look at this picture (which contains BOTH of Lee's "alibi" companions)....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UtrJBnjdnc0/XXqUC5SaY0I/AAAAAAABSnI/Roy7y39pfKoNrrMIa9IUsGid_W3slifWQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/Dillard-Photo-Zoomed.jpg)
So you believe Oswald claimed he ate lunch with them? And that would somehow be an alibi for him until.....those two were questioned. He even knew that the TSBD employees were at City Hall when he arrived. Williams saw him and he walked past Lovelady.
If he was sitting in the SN and knew those two were just below him as has been suggested how stupid to say that they were with him eating lunch when he knew they weren’t? Gimme a break....
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If he was sitting in the SN and knew those two were just below him as has been suggested how stupid to say that they were with him eating lunch when he knew they weren’t? Gimme a break....
See my last post above.
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Yeah, I see what you're getting at, Colin. My "Number 3" scenario in my earlier post doesn't make much sense then, does it?
So I guess I'll have to scrap that #3 suggestion above....unless somebody can come up with a theory in which Oswald wants to be believed about having lunch on the first floor with Jarman & Norman at the time when JFK is being shot AND also knows that J&N weren't on the first floor at 12:30 at all. (That would kind of make Oswald out to be a bit on the INSANE and FREAKIN' NUTS side, wouldn't it?)
Good catch there, Colin. Thanks. :)
I posted while you were replying it seems....
So, can we agree that it is likely that Oswald did not claim to eat lunch with them? But made some other reference to those two in particular that he believed might help his situation.
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The thing is, Norman and Jarman didn’t even eat lunch together that day.
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I posted while you were replying it seems....
So, can we agree that it is likely that Oswald did not claim to eat lunch with them? But made some other reference to those two in particular that he believed might help his situation.
Yeah, that he probably brazenly claimed to have seen them walking around, or through, part of the first floor while he was eating lunch in the Domino Room.
-- MWT ;)
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So, can we agree that it is likely that Oswald did not claim to eat lunch with them? But made some other reference to those two in particular that he believed might help his situation.
Oh, no. I think Oswald probably DID (at one time or another on Nov. 22 or 23) claim to be eating lunch with Jarman & Norman. I just had not properly thought out all of my #3 "scenario" that I laid out in my previous post. (I'm wiping the egg off my face as we speak.)
But I also can see your point regarding Oswald trying to use J&N as alibi witnesses----even though LHO would have to know that BOTH men are obviously going to say they didn't eat with Lee at all.
I think Lee's thoughts were a bit muddled right after he shot the President. His "alibi" plan was not exactly---shall we say---a good one.
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Oh, no. I think Oswald probably DID (at one time or another on Nov. 22 or 23) claim to be eating lunch with Jarman & Norman. I just had not properly thought out all of my #3 "scenario" that I laid out in my previous post. (I'm wiping the egg off my face as we speak.)
But I also can see your point regarding Oswald trying to use J&N as alibi witnesses----even though LHO would have to know that BOTH men are obviously going to say they didn't eat with Lee at all.
I think Lee's thoughts were a bit muddled right after he shot the President. His "alibi" plan was not exactly---shall we say---a good one.
Oswald was no dummy, and his brazenly claiming that he had seen "Junior" and another Negro (but leaving it wide open as to whether or not they had "seen" him) walking through the first floor while he was (not) having lunch in the D.R. was pretty clever of him, imho.
If Jarman and Norman were noisy (laughing, yelling) on the fifth floor while waiting for the motorcade to come by, Oswald in his sixth floor sniper's nest could have heard them and recognized their voices (at least Junior's), and intuited that they must have recently walked through the first floor to get there, and maybe even walked by the D.R. in doing so.
-- MWT ;)
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Oh, no. I think Oswald probably DID (at one time or another on Nov. 22 or 23) claim to be eating lunch with Jarman & Norman. I just had not properly thought out all of my #3 "scenario" that I laid out in my previous post. (I'm wiping the egg off my face as we speak.)
But I also can see your point regarding Oswald trying to use J&N as alibi witnesses----even though LHO would have to know that BOTH men are obviously going to say they didn't eat with Lee at all.
I think Lee's thoughts were a bit muddled right after he shot the President. His "alibi" plan was not exactly---shall we say---a good one.
Not a problem David.....I make mistakes and incorrect assumptions frequently. That's how we learn after all. That is my motivation for participating in this forum, to expand my understanding.
As I said previously a better bet for an Oswald alibi would have been "sighting" Troy West. Still paper thin but given his normal routine, more predicable. Funny he didn’t say BRW...... ;D
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Oswald was no dummy, and his brazenly claiming that he had seen "Junior" and another Negro walking through the first floor while he was (not) having lunch in the D.R. was pretty clever of him, imho.
If Jarman and Norman were noisy (laughing, yelling) on the fifth floor while waiting for the motorcade to come by, Oswald in his sixth floor sniper's nest could have heard them and recognized their voices (at least Junior's), and intuited that they must have recently walked through the first floor to get there, and maybe even walked by the D.R. in doing so.
So, in your opinion then, Oswald must have never claimed to have actually HAD LUNCH with Jarman and/or Norman, correct? You think Oswald ONLY told the police that he had seen J&N walk past the area of the Domino Room. Is that correct, Thomas?
BTW, have you flipped sides entirely since I conversed with you at the EF a few years back? As I recall, you were firmly in the "CT" camp. Or have I gone completely nuts tonight and I'm misremembering which side of the JFK debate you've always been on?
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So, in your opinion then, Oswald must have never claimed to have actually HAD LUNCH with Jarman and/or Norman, correct? You think Oswald ONLY told the police that he had seen J&N walk past the area of the Domino Room. Is that correct, Thomas?
BTW, have you flipped sides entirely since I conversed with you at the EF a few years back? As I recall, you were firmly in the "CT" camp. Or have I gone completely nuts tonight and I'm misremembering which side of the JFK debate you've always been on?
David,
Yes. Am I missing something? Evidently Bookhout wrote down that Oswald said he saw Junior and another Negro walking through the "room" while he was eating his lunch in the D.R. We all know that the D.R. had only one door (didn't it?), but maybe Bookhout didn't realize that. Oswald's claiming he'd seen Junior and the other guy on the first floor "room" from inside the D.R. that lunchtime would seemingly place Oswald there (inside the D.R.) without the messy stipulation or implication that they must have seen him "in there".
Yes, having read Epstein's Legend, and (LNer) Tennent H. Bagley's book Spy Wars, etc, I've come to the conclusion that True Marxist Oswald was fed up with both the Soviet and American systems, and possibly fed up with being used as a pawn by both the KGB and the CIA and the KGB (sic), and decided to take matters into his own hands and assassinate a charismatic liberal but anti-Communist president who was selling anti-Communism to the Third World. Why might he do that? So that Lyndon Johnson could come in to power, and the resulting conflicts he would get us involved in would serve to advance and speed up the "Dialectic of History," or whatever it's called.
Either that, or Oswald was trained/programmed while living in the USSR, and Khrushchev got cold feet at the last minute and was unable to call off the mission. That's basically what Ion Pacepa says in Programmed to Kill, and it seems to me that it ties in with elements of Richard Russell's The man Who Knew Too Much and the fact that true defector Anatoliy Golitsyn warned a couple of years before the assassination that the KGB was planning to assassinate a (unknown to him) Western political leader.
-- MWT ;)
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The absurdity of the whole premise lies with the idea that someone or anyone knew almost precisely when the motorcade would pass through Dealey Plaza.
Actually no one did... Except perhaps persons with two-way radios that kept close surveillance of the motorcade.
In fact...according to the schedule timeline, the President was due to arrive at the Dallas Trade Mart at 12:30 CST [the time of the shooting] so would that not mean that any shooter or shooters would have needed to be in position not much later than 12:00 Noon?
I guess everybody's favorite lone assassin somehow divined the correct time to crawl into his lair [another hapless coincidence]...or there were indeed communications ahead with notification of the parade's progress.
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According to Hosty's notes Oswald claimed that he was watching JFK's parade during the shooting.
Fred
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According to Hosty's notes Oswald claimed that he was watching JFK's parade during the shooting.
Fred
Which would seem to contradict what Oswald told the reporters in the hallway, wouldn't it? (Unless, of course, one were to accept the lame argument that Oswald was Prayer Person, and that one could reasonably consider that where he was standing was "inside" the building.)
Which would tend to indicate that Oswald was a serial teller of non-truths, imho.
-- MWT ;)
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In fact...according to the schedule timeline, the President was due to arrive at the Dallas Trade Mart at 12:30 CST [the time of the shooting] so would that not mean that any shooter or shooters would have needed to be in position not much later than 12:00 Noon?
I guess everybody's favorite lone assassin somehow divined the correct time to crawl into his lair [another hapless coincidence]...or there were indeed communications ahead with notification of the parade's progress.
Jerry,
This is a great point by the way. What happens with a lot of people who support the WC is that they can't put themselves into the actual event back then, to imagine what it was like to be there during the daily series of events. With people moving around, with Oswald doing his thing so to speak. There were people everywhere in that people coming and going, doing their work, grabbing their lunch and so on.
Oswald was seen out and about. I'm pretty sure that the speech at the Trade Mart was to begin sooner and, therefore, the parade would have passed by the building before 12.30, which basically supports even more the idea that Oswald was not involved. How could he be the way he was running orders, riding the elevator, grabbing his lunch and so on. It shows the opposite of what Nutters and the WC want to show. How could this so-called crazy nut have built this elaborate lair and *somehow" snuck the gun in, then had the time to put it together - and not even have the chance to sight the scope with practice shots - have known when the car was going to go by? They were laying flooring down on the 6th floor that day for crissake!. It defies belief and all common plausibility. The world doesn't work that way.
Further, I read somewhere that one of the workers who testified said that he was with Oswald earlier in the day and he asked this worker what all of the commotion was about in Dealey.
The sniper lair was overkill - the boxes were so elaborately set up that it was not actually easy to get in and out of the lair.
And so on...
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From memory Frazier asked Shelley if the 6th floor crew could break early for lunch that day.
Can anyone confirm? I can’t find it in his testimony.
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Frederick Clements posted:
"According to Hosty's notes Oswald claimed that he was watching JFK's parade during the shooting."
Which would seem to contradict what Oswald told the reporters in the hallway, wouldn't it? (Unless, of course, one were to accept the lame argument that Oswald was Prayer Person, and that one could reasonably consider that where he was standing was "inside" the building.)
Which would tend to indicate that Oswald was a shifty, streetwise teller of non-truths, imho.
Changed into a responsive answer and posted for y'alls' consideration.
-- MWT
PS Yeah, from the sixth floor window!
LOL
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How about those Russkies Thomas. Have they landed yet? Have you seen any?
It's like I said, Bill:
If you haven't noticed, the Kremlin won the Cold War.
Are you a Trump supporter, by any chance?
QAnon? Pizzagate?
It doesn't matter, the Far-Left is just as brainwashed as the Far-Right.
Heck, even James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum is a Trump supporter.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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From memory Frazier asked Shelley if the 6th floor crew could break early for lunch that day.
Can anyone confirm? I can’t find it in his testimony.
Can anyone else recall this? Perhaps it was in one of his numerous interviews........
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How about those Russkies Thomas. Have they landed yet? Have you seen any?
Yeah, in Trump's Oval Oriface, numbering amongst them a top Russian spy I heard. No press allowed...
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Yeah, in Trump's Oval Oriface, numbering amongst them a top Russian spy I heard. No press allowed...
Bill,
Nah, he's probably just a "useful idiot".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
-- MWT ;)
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For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly does not exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.
Why?
Because we know that two of those three people—James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.
Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have possessed that same capability?
I agree that when Norman and Jarman could make it to the 5th floor, Oswald could indeed have made it to the 6th. But IMO there are two flaws in this reasoning. First of all, we now know that the motorcade was running late. At the time it happened, the shooter wouldn't and couldn't have known that. So, for the shooter to show up on the 6th floor just prior to 12.30 pm seems an unlikely scenario. Even more so as witnesses said that they saw movement in the window from 12.15 pm, which would make a lot more sense as it computes far better with the scheduled time the motorcade was due to pass by the TSBD. It obviously doesn't compute well with a scenario in which Oswald stays in the Domino room until just prior to 12.30 pm
James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.
seconds after the last shot was fired ....???.
Seconds after the last shot was fired the three stooges were excitedly jabbering away and trying to figger out what was happening in the railroad yard ( the crowd along Elm Street were looking and pointing to that area) I believe the Dillard photo was taken DURING the shooting..... as evidenced by the fact that none of the three show any sign of alarm..... ( they haven't yet responded to the shots)
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I agree that when Norman and Jarman could make it to the 5th floor, Oswald could indeed have made it to the 6th. But IMO there are two flaws in this reasoning. First of all, we now know that the motorcade was running late. At the time it happened, the shooter wouldn't and couldn't have known that. So, for the shooter to show up on the 6th floor just prior to 12.30 pm seems an unlikely scenario. Even more so as witnesses said that they saw movement in the window from 12.15 pm, which would make a lot more sense as it computes far better with the scheduled time the motorcade was due to pass by the TSBD. It obviously doesn't compute well with a scenario in which Oswald stays in the Domino room until just prior to 12.30 pm.
What time was the limo supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart?
-- MWT ;)
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What time was the limo supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart?
-- MWT ;)
At 12:30
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At 12:30
Fwiw, the invitations to the luncheon say "at twelve noon".
Was tlhat when the guests were supposed to arrive, or maybe when they started letting the guests go in?
https://www.jfkmemorabilia.com/kennedy-trade-mart-assassination-invitation-postmark.html
How late was JFK's limo running when it reached the TSBD?
Edit:
The motorcade was scheduled to enter Dealey Plaza at 12:10 p.m., followed by a 12:15 p.m. arrival at the Trade Mart.
-- Wikipedia
If true, then even person whom witnesses claimed to have seen in the sixth floor window from 12:15 on would have missed his big opportunity if the motorcade had been on time.
-- MWT ;)
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Mr. Williams. It was after I had left the sixth floor., after I had eaten the Chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken
sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. Ball. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. Williams. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Witnesses saw armed men in the window of the SN and on the west end windows at about this time. Which is about the time
JFK's motorcade was supposed to have gone by the TSBD. It was late. Where was Oswald?
90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
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I'm assuming, I admit I don't know it's a fact, that a live radio broadcast would have been covering the progress of the motorcade since Lovefield. If so, everybody would have known the motorcade was running late and it's exact whereabouts at any given time.
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Was there a radio at the TSDB?
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I'm assuming, I admit I don't know it's a fact, that a live radio broadcast would have been covering the progress of the motorcade since Lovefield. If so, everybody would have known the motorcade was running late and it's exact whereabouts at any given time.
From memory Mrs Reid had a phone conversation with her husband and he told her the motorcade was running late. He heard it on the radio.
I believe one of the workers (Frazier?) asked Shelley if the workers could break a few minutes early to watch the motorcade. The "elevator race" was before noon, the normal scheduled time for lunch. It seems consistent with them thinking the motorcade would pass shortly after noon.
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Mr. Williams. It was after I had left the sixth floor., after I had eaten the Chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken
sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. Ball. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. Williams. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Witnesses saw armed men in the window of the SN and on the west end windows at about this time. Which is about the time
JFK's motorcade was supposed to have gone by the TSBD. It was late. Where was Oswald?
90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
photos taken by Dillard (30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
Gary...Is it reasonable that If the shots had been fired from that SE corner window that the sniper would linger and move boxes around ???
I agree that the boxes are in different orientation when comparing Dillard with Powell.... However the boxes were NOT moved AFTER the shots were fired...
The liars reversed the chronology of the Dillard and Powell photos.... Powell took his photo BEFORE the murder.... And his photo was intended to be a lucky happenstance by a spectator who just happened to catch the sniper ( the patsy Lee Oswald) in the act of withdrawing his rifle after he fired the shots.
But since Tom Dillard took a couple of photos immediately DURING the shooting ( or just a couple of seconds after the shots were fired, and most certainly NOT 30 seconds after the shots) The conspirators could not allow the public to see Powell's photo and compare it with Dillard's because some sharp eyed individual would have compared the photos and noticed that the Powell photo was taken BEFORE the Dillard photos.... And the fat would have been in the fire.
The reason the boxes are oriented differently in the Dillard photo ( compared to Powell) is because whoever was up there in the SE corner window with a rifle withdrew the rifle hastily and bumped the boxes AFTER Powell had snapped the photo.... Then When Dillard took his photos the box naturally was not sitting in the same place as it was when Powell snapped his photo.
PS....There definitely was a man with a rifle on the sixth floor at about 12:25 / 12:30 .... Howard Brennan saw him and described him and the rifle......
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Mr. Williams. It was after I had left the sixth floor., after I had eaten the Chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken
sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. Ball. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. Williams. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Witnesses saw armed men in the window of the SN and on the west end windows at about this time. Which is about the time
JFK's motorcade was supposed to have gone by the TSBD. It was late. Where was Oswald?
90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
Let's examine the chronology....Dillard supposedly snapped his photo about 30 seconds after the last shot was fired...
The Warren Commission said that Lee Oswald was seen in the second floor lunchroom by DPD officer Marrion Baker less that 90 seconds after the shooting .
The boxes were allegedly moved sometime AFTER Tom Dillard snapped the photo which they said was taken 30 seconds after the shooting....So if LHO was the shooter and he was moving boxes around, then he couldn't have departed for the lunchroom immediately after the shooting and he would have had less than 60 seconds to reach the lunchroom ahead of Baker and Truly... And that would have been impossible!
I believe that Powell took the first photo a few minutes before the shooting....and the man with the rifle bumped the light weight Rolling Readers box and displaced it AFTER Powell had snapped his photo....Then a few minutes later when Dillard took his photo the box was not in the same position as it had been when Powell snapped shutter.
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As I said earlier, the total time to do all that would have probably been less than 3 minutes. Maybe even less than that if Oswald moved at a good rapid pace. But, just like with LHO's trip from the 6th floor to the lunchroom after the shooting, to hear a CTer tell it, such a simple journey from the sixth floor to the first floor and back was Mission Impossible.
You are right, Oswald was so fast that the human eye could not see him from the time in the Domino room to the time Baker sees him. He was so fast no one else ever saw him, I mean, so fast that his feet never touched the ground to make noise to be heard. Or did he have this special power? After all, the TV show debut was the very next year. Connection? Watch very closely, this very cool
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Sorry for the delay, Martin....
There are numerous possibilities here:
1. Oswald could have just simply guessed (correctly) when he said to Fritz he had seen Jarman & Norman on the 1st floor. After all, we know for a fact that both Jarman and Norman DID see (and talk to) Oswald a little earlier in the morning on the first floor. So Lee knew that both men did come to work that day. And there weren't THAT many warehouse workers to choose from (via a "wild guess" scenario). And maybe Oswald had seen Jarman & Norman together on previous days and assumed they hung out together. ~shrug~
2. Oswald could have actually been in the Domino Room shortly before 12:30 and could have physically seen J&N. (I don't think this is the correct solution, but I can't entirely discount it either.)
And how about this possibility....
3. I'm wondering if it's just remotely possible (due to the open windows on both the 5th and 6th floors) that Oswald could have leaned out of his SN window, looked down toward the fifth floor, and caught a glimpse of Jarman & Norman leaning out of their respective windows below him? (Granted, this is probably not a likely solution---especially since Oswald would not likely want to "advertise" his presence in the Sniper's Nest by leaning out of his window---but can it be ruled out entirely?) ~additional shrug~
More food for thought anyway.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UtrJBnjdnc0/XXqUC5SaY0I/AAAAAAABSnI/Roy7y39pfKoNrrMIa9IUsGid_W3slifWQCLcBGAsYHQ/s700/Dillard-Photo-Zoomed.jpg)
1.Oswald could have just simply guessed (correctly) when he said to Fritz he had seen Jarman & Norman on the 1st floor. After all, we know for a fact that both Jarman and Norman DID see (and talk to) Oswald a little earlier in the morning on the first floor. So Lee knew that both men did come to work that day. And there weren't THAT many warehouse workers to choose from (via a "wild guess" scenario). And maybe Oswald had seen Jarman & Norman together on previous days and assumed they hung out together. ~shrug~
Yes, I suppose Oswald could have simply guessed, but it wasn't a matter of just saying he had seen Jarman and Norman on the first floor. If he intended to establish an alibi, his guess would have had to have been far more precise than that. To give such a guess any credibility, the scope would have to have been far more narrow, as seeing Jarman and Norman on the first floor at any time other than minutes prior to the shots would not have been much of an alibi at all. So, the guess would have to include the correct persons seen at the correct location and at the correct time..... that would be some guess, right?
2.Oswald could have actually been in the Domino Room shortly before 12:30 and could have physically seen J&N. (I don't think this is the correct solution, but I can't entirely discount it either.)
This seems the most logical and likely scenario for me. It doesn't make sense for Oswald to try to establish some sort of alibi by telling his interrogators a story which could easily be dismissed, if not true. Oswald clearly intended to place himself at a location which he had seen Norman and Jarman pass by just minutes prior to the shots. That, IMO, was the intended alibi instead of that Norman and/or Jarman had seen him. All the latter two really needed to be asked was if they passed by the Domino room minutes prior to the shots. No need for them to see Oswald, just confirmation that they were there where Oswald said he saw them would have sufficed.
Unfortunately Jarman and Normad were (IMO) asked the wrong questions about having eaten lunch with Oswald or even seeing him.
Having said this, I would be interested in why you feel this is not the correct solution, David?
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Oswald clearly intended to place himself at a location which he had seen Norman and Jarman pass by just minutes prior to the shots. That, IMO, was the intended alibi instead of that Norman and/or Jarman had seen him. All the latter two really needed to be asked was if they passed by the Domino room minutes prior to the shots. No need for them to see Oswald, just confirmation that they were there where Oswald said he saw them would have sufficed.
Unfortunately Jarman and Norman were (IMO) asked the wrong questions about having eaten lunch with Oswald or even seeing him.
Having said this, I would be interested in why you feel this is not the correct solution, David?
You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.
But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.
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You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.
But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.
Especially if he already had the rifle locked, loaded and stashed up there near the nest.
But, then again, why wouldn't he have been up there from about 12:05 on, waiting for the delayed motorcade to arrive?
The Wikipedia article I posted said the motorcade was scheduled to arrive at Dealey Plaza at 12:10 ...
-- MWT ;)
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You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.
But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.
Perhaps you could provide your understanding of Oswald's movements after the Piper interaction about noon. I take it you believe Oswald was the man with the rifle Rowland saw at 12.15pm. We then know the assembly of the rifle occurred before this time. Do you believe Givens "cigarette story"? If so, when did this occur? I assume prior to BRW's arrival on the 6th floor. Prior to Piper's sighting or after? At 12.15 where was BRW? At what time approximately did Oswald finally enter the SN? If he did see Jarman and Norman pass the domino room on their way to the 5th floor, I assume he used the stairs to get to the 6th floor.....right?
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You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.
But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.
I have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Jarman and Norman needed to reach the 5th.
However I also did raise some points which make it at least somewhat unlikely that Oswald would have made it to the 6th floor with merely minutes, perhaps even seconds, to spare to see a motorcade pass by which was some 15 minutes late. If this is the scenario you wish to go by, you need to explain the observations made by several witnesses who saw movements in the 6th floor window well before Oswald (in this scenario) could have gotten there.
Having said that, I still would be interested to hear from you why you feel this is not the correct solution, David?
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90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.
Let's examine the chronology....Dillard supposedly snapped his photo about 30 seconds after the last shot was fired...
The Warren Commission said that Lee Oswald was seen in the second floor lunchroom by DPD officer Marrion Baker less that 90 seconds after the shooting .
The boxes were allegedly moved sometime AFTER Tom Dillard snapped the photo which they said was taken 30 seconds after the shooting....So if LHO was the shooter and he was moving boxes around, then he couldn't have departed for the lunchroom immediately after the shooting and he would have had less than 60 seconds to reach the lunchroom ahead of Baker and Truly... And that would have been impossible!
I believe that Powell took the first photo a few minutes before the shooting....and the man with the rifle bumped the light weight Rolling Readers box and displaced it AFTER Powell had snapped his photo....Then a few minutes later when Dillard took his photo the box was not in the same position as it had been when Powell snapped shutter.
I think the time and place Dillard took his photo can be pinpointed because he was riding in a car in the parade and it's position relative to 12:30 can be determinded from film and photos.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=69117
"The panel studied two photographs taken within minutes of the assassination. While no human face or form could be detected
in the sixth floor southeast window, the panel was able to conclude that a stack of boxes had been rearranged during the
interval of the taking of the two photographs
Lillian Mooneyham
a.Dallas County court clerk watching motorcade from Judge King's windows on the second floor, southwest corner, Criminal
Courts Bldg, with Mrs. Rose Clark and Jeannette Hooker.
b. Heard three shots.
c. Heard first shot;saw President slump; thought it was firecracker.
d. Second and third shots were closer together.
e. Saw Mrs. Kennedy climb on back of car.
f. Mooneyham went to Judge Hyer's windows on the third floor of Records Bldg.
g. People running to pergola.
h. 41/2 to 5 minutes after shots she sees man standing behind some boxes on the 6th floor, TSBD.
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@ Colin and Martin....
Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....
---- quote on: ----
"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")
Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].
But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.
At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.
And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.
It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).
But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.
And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).
Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.
But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.
The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010
----------------------------------------------------------
Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
----------------------------------------------------------
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@ Colin and Martin....
Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....
---- quote on: ----
"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")
Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].
But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.
At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.
And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.
It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).
But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.
And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).
Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.
But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.
The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010
----------------------------------------------------------
Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
----------------------------------------------------------
David,
But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.
Agreed, but none of this really deals with my question about why you feel this is not the correct solution, as you previously said.
Also, the movements of Jarman and Norman, during the minutes prior to the shots, are pretty well documented. We know they were in front of the building and we also know that ended up on the 5th floor just prior to the shooting. We also know how they got there, which narrows their passing through the 1st floor to only a window of a couple of minutes, which is of course precisely where Oswald said he saw them. So, how do we explain this?
-
@ Colin and Martin....
Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....
---- quote on: ----
"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")
Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].
But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.
At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.
And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.
It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).
But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.
And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).
Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.
But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.
The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010
----------------------------------------------------------
Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
----------------------------------------------------------
Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.
-
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
You left out a very important witness, didn't you? Howard Brennan.
Brennan sees the assassin firing a rifle at JFK from the 6th-floor sniper's window.
Brennan later identifies the assassin as being Lee Harvey Oswald.
Why did you completely omit Brennan, Colin? Doesn't he qualify as a witness in your mind at all?
(Curiously, you left Carolyn Arnold off your list too.)
-
Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.
But ... but ... but ... don't many Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theorists believe that some of those "witnesses" were part of the 1000-person assassination and/or cover-up job?
-- MWT ;)
-
From memory Mrs Reid had a phone conversation with her husband and he told her the motorcade was running late. He heard it on the radio.
I believe one of the workers (Frazier?) asked Shelley if the workers could break a few minutes early to watch the motorcade. The "elevator race" was before noon, the normal scheduled time for lunch. It seems consistent with them thinking the motorcade would pass shortly after noon.
Finally found this in an oral history with Gary Mack......
Gary: When did you first learn that President Kennedy was coming to town? And then the follow-up, of course, would be when did you first realize that he was going to come right by your building?
Buell: (0:40:15) Well, I think it was a day or two before… just hearing people talk. They said that President Kennedy was going to be coming to Dallas, but that didn’t…anything didn’t register on me about that because presidents, say, visit cities in America and cities in other countries. That’s a common… a pretty common thing for them. For one reason or another, they go there for business, whether it’s political, whether campaigning, or they’re trying to be a negotiator as a… in a peace-type situation, or whatever. A president of the United States traveling to different points in the world is very common, so him coming to Dallas, no. That didn’t mean anything particular to me.
Gary: How about some of your coworkers? Was…?
Buell: Well, the morning, Friday, November the 22nd, it was, I think, around break time, they found out that… that the presidential parade was going to be coming by the Texas School Book Depository, Houston and Elm Street. And a lot of the people was very excited about that. They says, “Gosh,” says, “we got a chance to see the president.” And as they were talking, then they realized that he may come by before lunch break or after lunch break, and there’s a possibility we wouldn’t get a chance to see the parade. So, someone had gone to Mr. Shelley and asked, “Are we going to get to see the presidential parade?” And there was a… I guess he checked with Mr. Truly, and Mr. Truly checked with his bosses who were up in… on the second floor. And they come back with the reply that, yes, we would stop and everyone could see the presidential parade. And so, we continued to work, and then at a certain time, we stopped and everyone got ready to watch the parade.
-
You left out a very important witness, didn't you? Howard Brennan.
Brennan sees the assassin firing a rifle at JFK from the 6th-floor sniper's window.
Brennan later identifies the assassin as being Lee Harvey Oswald.
Why did you completely omit Brennan, Colin? Doesn't he qualify as a witness in your mind at all?
(Curiously, you left Carolyn Arnold off your list too.)
Why did you leave this off my quote?
"Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed."
Let's add Brennan sighting someone in the SN and I did not add Carolyn Arnold because we don't have a definitive time (or corroboration) for her.
-
Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
Brennan sighting someone in the SN.
Belknap having seizure.
Ambulance arriving in DP.
While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.
Added a few more at David's suggestion. This can be a living list. Have a go and see where it leads.
-
Why did you leave this off my quote?
"Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed."
Let's add Brennan sighting someone in the SN and I did not add Carolyn Arnold because we don't have a definitive time (or corroboration) for her.
OK. Fair enough. Brennan is a pretty important witness for anybody to forget about, though. Wouldn't you agree?
I know that most CTers couldn't care less about Brennan positively IDing LHO as JFK's assassin (in Brennan's WC testimony). But he did it nevertheless.
-
You can also add:
Amos Euins sees someone (with "pipe") in 6th-floor Sniper's Nest.
-
Add Carolyn Walter, Ruby Henderson, and Johnny Powell all reporting that they saw two men on the 6th floor or an upper floor.
-
OK. Fair enough. Brennan is a pretty important witness for anybody to forget about, though. Wouldn't you agree?
I know that most CTers couldn't care less about Brennan positively IDing LHO as JFK's assassin (in Brennan's WC testimony). But he did it nevertheless.
Waiting for your shot at the sequence.....only listing events up to 12.30pm.
-
Add Carolyn Walter, Ruby Henderson, and Johnny Powell all reporting that they saw two men on the 6th floor or an upper floor.
Gasp ... two men?
Were they within fifty feet of each other?
-- MWT ;)
PS Were they speaking Spanish or ... gulp ... Russian?
-
Shut up, Graves. Grownups are talking.
-
Waiting for your shot at the sequence.....only listing events up to 12.30pm.
I'll give it a shot....
My best chronology (utilizing the items previously mentioned)....
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi"). [DVP Interjection -- I don't think the "noticing Jarman and Norman" part happened at all. Hence, I need to place Oswald "returning to the 6th floor" BEFORE the "elevator race". But it is POSSIBLE that Oswald, for some reason, returned to the first floor AFTER the elevator race. And if that was the case, then another "Oswald Returns To The Sixth Floor" entry would be needed below, denoted with ********.]
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th).
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip.
Williams arriving on the fifth [sic] floor for lunch. [You surely meant to say SIXTH floor here, right? Since Williams didn't eat his lunch on the FIFTH floor that day.]
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
[*******]
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm).
Belknap having seizure. [Not sure what this event has to do with this particular topic, however.] ~shrug~
Ambulance arriving in DP. [Like Belknap, I can't see how this event is very meaningful to this discussion.]
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting. [It's possible Oswald did this twice, though.]
Brennan sighting someone in the SN.
Euins sees someone (with a "pipe") in the 6th-floor SN window.
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor. [Dougherty's testimony is a total mess. A timeline of his actions and movements cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy, IMO.]
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots. [See last comment.]
-
I'll give it a shot....
My best chronology (utilizing the items previously mentioned)....
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi"). [DVP Interjection -- I don't think the "noticing Jarman and Norman" part happened at all. Hence, I need to place Oswald "returning to the 6th floor" BEFORE the "elevator race". But it is POSSIBLE that Oswald, for some reason, returned to the first floor AFTER the elevator race. And if that was the case, then another "Oswald Returns To The Sixth Floor" entry would be needed below, denoted with ********.]
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th).
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip.
Williams arriving on the fifth [sic] floor for lunch. [You surely meant to say SIXTH floor here, right? Since Williams didn't eat his lunch on the FIFTH floor that day.]
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
[*******]
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm).
Belknap having seizure. [Not sure what this event has to do with this particular topic, however.] ~shrug~
Ambulance arriving in DP. [Like Belknap, I can't see how this event is very meaningful to this discussion.]
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting. [It's possible Oswald did this twice, though.]
Brennan sighting someone in the SN.
Euins sees someone (with a "pipe") in the 6th-floor SN window.
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor. [Dougherty's testimony is a total mess. A timeline of his actions and movements cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy, IMO.]
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots. [See last comment.]
I believe the “elevator race” occurred before noon. The 6th floor guys left after Shelley went downstairs. See the comment I posted earlier in Frazier’s Oral History that the men were allowed to break early for lunch that day. In the scheme of things shows Oswald on 5 or 6 before noon.
Givens’ story is an interesting “development” that has been long debated. Let’s set it aside (for now)
Jarman and Norman did not arrive on the 5th floor until after 12.20pm. Really happy to debate that one as it shows that BRW was on the 6th floor after Rowland’s observation . Probably the key event in the sequence.
Belknap’s seizure is inserted as we have the timestamp to the ambulance call on police radio. It also fits with Brennan taking position.
Dougherty took the west elevator up after Jarman and Norman, leaving the gates open, so that Truly could not call it down after the shots. He also brought it down after Truly and Baker started up the stairs and before they arrived at the 5th. That is his significance, if you want to add someone else who did that be my guest.
PS the correction about Williams having lunch on 6 rather than 5 is acknowleged. Maybe I was going by the statements by Jarman and Norman prior to their WC hearings :)
-
Shut up, Graves. Grownups are talking.
Shut up, Iacoletti.
What you posted sounded very, very sinister!
Two men?
At the same time??
Wowie zowie.
I think you've cracked the case!
-- MWT ;)
-
I believe the “elevator race” occurred before noon. The 6th floor guys left after Shelley went downstairs. See the comment I posted earlier in Frazier’s Oral History that the men were allowed to break early for lunch that day. In the scheme of things shows Oswald on 5 or 6 before noon.
Givens’ story is an interesting “development” that has been long debated. Let’s set it aside (for now)
Jarman and Norman did not arrive on the 5th floor until after 12.20pm. Really happy to debate that one as it shows that BRW was on the 6th floor after Rowland’s observation . Probably the key event in the sequence.
Belknap’s seizure is inserted as we have the timestamp to the ambulance call on police radio. It also fits with Brennan taking position.
Dougherty took the west elevator up after Jarman and Norman, leaving the gates open, so that Truly could not call it down after the shots. He also brought it down after Truly and Baker started up the stairs and before they arrived at the 5th. That is his significance, if you want to add someone else who did that be my guest.
PS the correction about Williams having lunch on 6 rather than 5 is acknowleged. Maybe I was going by the statements by Jarman and Norman prior to their WC hearings :)
Colin,
Do you think Big Jack was "in on the deal," or were those two really, really suspicious "elevator thingies" just coincidences, gosh darn it?
-- MWT ;)
-
Colin,
Do you think Big Jack was "in on the deal," or were those two really, really suspicious "elevator thingies" just coincidences, gosh darn it?
-- MWT ;)
No. I don't believe JD was involved.
-
For David re Belknap......another interesting piece of information.....regarding Frazier's arrival at the steps.
Gary: OK. Do you remember a… an ambulance in Dealey Plaza before
the motorcade came by?
Buell: (shaking head) No.
Gary: Have you heard about that since then? That an ambulance came by
to pick up a guy?
Buell: You hear a lot of things, but I haven’t heard anything about that.
Gary: OK. That’s… that’s an event where, if you have been there, if you
had seen it, you probably would have remembered it. The ambulance was gone a good
five minutes before Kennedy came by, so… so that means… that tells me that you
probably didn’t get out on the steps until about 12:25, and Kennedy came by at 12:30.
-
For David.....
Jarman and Norman departing for the 5th floor.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade with taken from Dallas Police Radio suggests Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm.
What do you base your belief that those two arrived on the 5th floor before 12.15 pm on?
-
Jarman and Norman did not eat lunch together that day. I think John alluded to that earlier. They met close to the TSBD entrance and went outside.
-
Shut up, Iacoletti.
What you posted sounded very, very sinister!
Two men?
At the same time??
Wowie zowie.
I think you've cracked the case!
-- MWT ;)
You don’t think it’s significant that multiple witnesses reported seeing two men together in the so-called snipers nest before the assassination (one with a rifle). But you do somehow find it significant that you think you see two “bars” on somebody’s butt in a blurry screenshot of the Darnell film.
Go figure.
-
I'll give it a shot....
My best chronology (utilizing the items previously mentioned)....
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi"). [DVP Interjection -- I don't think the "noticing Jarman and Norman" part happened at all. Hence, I need to place Oswald "returning to the 6th floor" BEFORE the "elevator race". But it is POSSIBLE that Oswald, for some reason, returned to the first floor AFTER the elevator race. And if that was the case, then another "Oswald Returns To The Sixth Floor" entry would be needed below, denoted with ********.]
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th).
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip.
Williams arriving on the fifth [sic] floor for lunch. [You surely meant to say SIXTH floor here, right? Since Williams didn't eat his lunch on the FIFTH floor that day.]
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
[*******]
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm).
Belknap having seizure. [Not sure what this event has to do with this particular topic, however.] ~shrug~
Ambulance arriving in DP. [Like Belknap, I can't see how this event is very meaningful to this discussion.]
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting. [It's possible Oswald did this twice, though.]
Brennan sighting someone in the SN.
Euins sees someone (with a "pipe") in the 6th-floor SN window.
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor. [Dougherty's testimony is a total mess. A timeline of his actions and movements cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy, IMO.]
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots. [See last comment.]
[DVP Interjection -- I don't think the "noticing Jarman and Norman" part happened at all.
Then please explain how Lee Oswald could have known that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor on their way to the west elevator at about 12:26 / 12:27?? ( Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28) Lee said that he saw them....
I now understand why you can't understand what happened in Dealey Plaza that day..... You're trying to present a coherent picture ( that Lee was guilty) that you've formed from several different jigsaw puzzles.
-
What do you base your belief that those two arrived on the 5th floor before 12.15 pm on?
Only because I'm kind of stuck with the "12:15 PM" time you've placed on Rowland's observation of Rifle Man. But I think a better chronology is probably to move up Rowland's 12:15 Rifle Man sighting to right after Givens cigarette trip and just before Williams arrives on 6th floor.
But we must always remember that all "witness times" are approximate times. They're not written in stone. And it's not reasonable to assume that EVERY witness nailed their times right to the minute.
And, as I said previously, it's possible Oswald needed to go back down to the first floor a little later than 12:15 and then return to his Nest. We'll never know for sure.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
-
Then please explain how Lee Oswald could have known that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor on their way to the west elevator at about 12:26 / 12:27??
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1332.html
(And, of course, Walt has decided to put a definitive "12:26 / 12:27" timestamp on an event that cannot possibly be trimmed to such a specific exacting time.)
I now understand why you can't understand what happened in Dealey Plaza that day...
You think I (an LNer) can't understand what happened on 11/22/63? What would make you utter such a ridiculous statement? I understand perfectly. It's the CTers of the world who have been trying for the last 55+ years to "understand" what happened in the Plaza that day.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/six-things-made-to-order-for-lho.html
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Only because I'm kind of stuck with the "12:15 PM" time you've placed on Rowland's observation of Rifle Man. But I think a better chronology is probably to move up Rowland's 12:15 Rifle Man sighting to right after Givens cigarette trip and just before Williams arrives on 6th floor.
I think that’s mainly because you don’t want to confront the idea that BRW could have seen Rowland’s gunman.
But we must always remember that all "witness times" are approximate times. They're not written in stone. And it's not reasonable to assume that EVERY witness nailed their times right to the minute.
True, but in Rowland’s case, he had a giant Hertz clock to time stamp his observations with.
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I think that’s mainly because you don’t want to confront the idea that BRW could have seen Rowland’s gunman.
I think if Bonnie Ray had seen the gunman (Oswald), he would have said so.
You, apparently, think BRW would have been willing to lie his head off. I don't.
...in Rowland’s case, he had a giant Hertz clock to time stamp his observations with.
But we can be fairly certain that Rowland didn't take advantage of the Hertz sign. Because if he had, he would have said so in his WC testimony and in his 11/22/63 affidavit (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VT-pM3J-WNE/Tvw05sUBICI/AAAAAAAABr4/kNPBIHAEHkA/s1200-h/Arnold-Rowland-Affidavit.gif), instead of the approximations he chose to use with respect to the times when things happened that day.
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You don’t think it’s significant that multiple witnesses reported seeing two men together in the so-called snipers nest before the assassination (one with a rifle). But you do somehow find it significant that you think you see two “bars” on somebody’s butt in a blurry screenshot of the Darnell film.
Iacoletti,
Multiple?
Five?
Seven?
Ten?
Regardless ... hey! ... maybe Oswald got help from "Mac" Wallace, or "dimwitted" big Jack Dougherty!
You think it was Marcello's boys, or ONI, or the evil, evil, evil CIA?
Undercover DPD?
Some anti-Kennedy Cubans who snuck in?
-- MWT ;)
PS If you'd quit that nasty, nasty habit of yours and get a clear copy of the Darnell clip (and if you knew where to look) you, too, would be able to see two faint horizontal bars in Calvery's skirt, ...but I know, I know. I know ... the Nighttime Garden calls you like the Sirens of Charybdis, luring you into total and complete blob-dom.
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You don’t think it’s significant that multiple witnesses reported seeing two men together in the so-called snipers nest before the assassination (one with a rifle)
Name those 'multiple witnesses'
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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1332.html
(And, of course, Walt has decided to put a definitive "12:26 / 12:27" timestamp on an event that cannot possibly be trimmed to such a specific exacting time.)
You think I (an LNer) can't understand what happened on 11/22/63? What would make you utter such a ridiculous statement? I understand perfectly. It's the CTers of the world who have been trying for the last 55+ years to "understand" what happened in the Plaza that day.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/six-things-made-to-order-for-lho.html
Walt has decided to put a definitive "12:26 / 12:27" timestamp on an event that cannot possibly be trimmed to such a specific exacting time
A definite time stamp?? ....Yer kidding.... I allowed a time period of 120 seconds.... While your tale builders cut seconds into fractions in their tale about Lee dashing from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom. ....AND...since Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28...my estimation of 12:26 / 12:27 is logical and reasonable.
And I hate to rain on your parade...BUT....You don't have a clue about what went down in Dealey Plaza that day.....
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I think if Bonnie Ray had seen the gunman (Oswald), he would have said so.
You, apparently, think BRW would have been willing to lie his head off. I don't.
But we can be fairly certain that Rowland didn't take advantage of the Hertz sign. Because if he had, he would have said so in his WC testimony and in his 11/22/63 affidavit (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VT-pM3J-WNE/Tvw05sUBICI/AAAAAAAABr4/kNPBIHAEHkA/s1200-h/Arnold-Rowland-Affidavit.gif), instead of the approximations he chose to use with respect to the times when things happened that day.
I think if Bonnie Ray had seen the gunman (Oswald), he would have said so.
I think if Bonnie Ray had seen the gunman, and that man had been Lee Oswald, he would have said so.
Yes, I agree with you Von P.... But... If BRW had seen a "sheriff" ( a man dressed in light colored khaki uniform) with a rifle, and the "sheriff had told him to get off the sixth floor and forget that he'd seen the "sheriff" there.... He would have complied and kept his mouth shut. Especially after seeing Lee Oswald murdered while in the custody of the DPD.
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If BRW had seen a "sheriff" ( a man dressed in light colored khaki uniform) with a rifle, and the "sheriff had told him to get off the sixth floor and forget that he'd seen the "sheriff" there.... He would have complied and kept his mouth shut.
It's really fun to just make stuff up out of whole cloth, isn't it Walt?
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It's really fun to just make stuff up out of whole cloth, isn't it Walt?
The Warren Commission must have thought so.
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Walt has decided to put a definitive "12:26 / 12:27" timestamp on an event that cannot possibly be trimmed to such a specific exacting time
A definite time stamp?? ....Yer kidding.... I allowed a time period of 120 seconds....
This is hilarious. Walt thinks he WASN'T being "definitive" when he mentioned a time variance which spanned a mere 120 seconds. As if 2 minutes is a huge variable time-wise. Incredible.
And I hate to rain on your parade...BUT....You don't have a clue about what went down in Dealey Plaza that day.....
I see that Walt Cakebread is just as delusional as he was in 2006 and 2007.
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Name those 'multiple witnesses'
Already did, Bill. Try reading previous posts before chiming in.
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It's really fun to just make stuff up out of whole cloth, isn't it Walt?
The "cloth" was light colored khaki ( Like a sheriff's uniform) .... Witnesses said that they saw two men behind the SE window and the man wearing the light colored clothing was holding a rifle. ( Lee Oswald was wearing dark colored clothing ) Perhaps the "sheriff' had just arrived and found Bonnie Ray there... and was telling Bonnie Ray to leave the sixth floor and forget that he'd seen the "sheriff" there.
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Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28...
Jarman actually said this....
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
But in his 12/4/63 affidavit (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm), Harold Norman said he and Jarman went to the 5th floor at "about 12:15 P.M.".
Cakebread naturally totally ignores Norman's "12:15 PM" estimate and will rely only on James Jarman's timeline (which Cakebread has also skewed slightly, as he totally ignores the "12:25" time estimate Jarman gave the WC). And in actuality, the "12:25 or 12:28" estimate provided by Jarman was not for the time when Jarman GOT UP TO the fifth floor (as Cakebread has suggested), but Jarman's 12:25-12:28 time was a time when Jarman and Norman were just getting on the elevator to go up to the 5th floor. So, given that fact, we can be pretty certain that Jarman's estimate of the time being as late as "12:28" is very likely not accurate. It was a bit earlier than that, otherwise J&N would probably have not gotten up there by exactly 12:30.
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Lee Oswald was wearing dark colored clothing.
His T-shirt wasn't "dark". And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Sniper's Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
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Jarman actually said this....
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
But in his 12/4/63 affidavit (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm), Harold Norman said he and Jarman went to the 5th floor at "about 12:15 P.M.".
Cakebread naturally totally ignores Norman's "12:15 PM" estimate and will rely only on James Jarman's timeline (which Cakebread has also skewed slightly, as he totally ignores the "12:25" time estimate Jarman gave the WC). And in actuality, the "12:25 or 12:28" estimate provided by Jarman was not for the time when Jarman GOT UP TO the fifth floor (as Cakebread has suggested), but Jarman's 12:25-12:28 time was a time when Jarman and Norman were just getting on the elevator to go up to the 5th floor. So, given that fact, we can be pretty certain that Jarman's estimate of the time being as late as "12:28" is very likely not accurate. It was a bit earlier than that, otherwise J&N would probably have not gotten up there by exactly 12:30.
My dear Von P... Mr Jarman was referring to the ENTIRE period of time from when he and Norman departed the front of the TSBD ( at 12:25), and the time they arrived on the fifth floor( 12:28)
And as to Shorty Norman's 12:15 comment..... ::)
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Not nearly as much fun as reading your completely taken out of context faux debates you have with yourself using other people's forum posts with you always coming out the winner. Are you familiar with the term, "stacked deck"? :D
As I asked Ray Mitcham weeks ago (which he totally ignored), please provide me with some "out of context" examples on my webpages. If I find that I agree with you, I'll do my best to add more "context" (if possible).
Regarding the "stacked deck" accusation....
Do you think that ANYONE who runs a "conspiracy" website lets an LNer come out the "winner" in any of their articles? Get real.
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His T-shirt wasn't "dark". And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
A desperate and ridiculous reply.... Not worth responding to....
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Mr Jarman was referring to the ENTIRE period of time from when he and Norman departed the front of the TSBD (at 12:25), and the time they arrived on the fifth floor (12:28).
You're just making this up as you go along, it would seem. Jarman didn't say he GOT UP TO the fifth floor at 12:28. You're just assuming that's what he meant.
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Cakebread naturally totally ignores Norman's "12:15 PM" estimate and will rely only on James Jarman's timeline
Fortunately as Colin has pointed out, we can timestamp when the motorcade got to Main Street which Norman said they got the news of before they went back into the building.
but Jarman's 12:25-12:28 time was a time when Jarman and Norman were just getting on the elevator to go up to the 5th floor. So, given that fact, we can be pretty certain that Jarman's estimate of the time being as late as "12:28" is very likely not accurate. It was a bit earlier than that, otherwise J&N would probably have not gotten up there by exactly 12:30.
Just how long do you think it would take to ride the elevator up to the 5th floor?
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Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
A desperate and ridiculous reply.... Not worth responding to....
Not desperate.
And not ridiculous in the slightest.
IOW---It's a perfectly reasonable assessment of what LHO did on 11/22/63.
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Just how long do you think it would take to ride the elevator up to the 5th floor?
In those old clunky freight elevators? I have no idea. But probably longer than you or Walt think.
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His T-shirt wasn't "dark".
It wasn’t khaki either.
And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
What about the witnesses who saw a man in a brown sport coat?
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In those old clunky freight elevators? I have no idea. But probably longer than you or Walt think.
Jarman and Norman heard a police radio give the location of the motorcade and knew the motorcade would probably arrive at the TSBD in about 5 minutes...
The motorcade was at the location given in the broadcast at 12:25..... And they departed immediately for the fifth floor....That would have had them passing through the first floor by the Domino room at about 12:26 / 12:27....
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As I asked Ray Mitcham weeks ago (which he totally ignored), please provide me with some "out of context" examples on my webpages. If I find that I agree with you, I'll do my best to add more "context" (if possible).
Regarding the "stacked deck" accusation....
Do you think that ANYONE who runs a "conspiracy" website lets an LNer come out the "winner" in any of their articles? Get real.
Hmmm, back to this again..... pfffff
Regarding the "stacked deck" accusation....
Do you think that ANYONE who runs a "conspiracy" website lets an LNer come out the "winner" in any of their articles? Get real.
So, just because some other site does it, it's ok for you to do it as well, is that what you are saying, David?
When we discussed this topic earlier, I did have a look at some of my posts you had used on your website and although I couldn't really remember which post it was that made me angry about the lack of context years ago, I did notice something else that bothers me. Even when you do quote a conversation in several posts verbatim, you seem to have a tendency to return to that conversation at a later date and add on (one sided) information without the other person having the ability to counter those remarks. So, yes, I can relate very well to Bettina Krotsch's "stacked deck" comment.
It's actually a shame that you resort to doing this because it comes across as a sign of weakness and it does your credibility no good. IMO only people who can not "win" the argument in a normal way use these kinds of tricks to somehow prevail.
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In those old clunky freight elevators? I have no idea. But probably longer than you or Walt think.
And yet Oswald was able to “assure hisself that he hit his mark”, slowly step down out of sight, wipe the rifle down, hide the rifle, move a box over the top of the gap, and then make it down 8 staircases and landings without being seen or heard by 12 or so people along the way, all in 75-90 seconds.
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I did notice something else that bothers me. Even when you do quote a conversation in several posts verbatim, you seem to have a tendency to return to that conversation at a later date and add on (one sided) information without the other person having the ability to counter those remarks.
Please cite an example of such a thing occurring.
Plus, why wouldn't the other person have the "ability to counter those remarks" even if I did "return to that conversation at a later date"? If it started out as a public "conversation" on a FORUM site, then why can't the other person reply? Please elaborate on why such a reply is impossible from "the other person".
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And yet Oswald was able to “assure hisself that he hit his mark”, slowly step down out of sight, wipe the rifle down, hide the rifle, move a box over the top of the gap, and then make it down 8 staircases and landings without being seen or heard by 12 or so people along the way, all in 75-90 seconds.
Yep. He sure did. It can be done in under one minute. The HSCA (at a "running" pace) was able to get from the SN on the sixth floor to the 2nd-floor lunchroom in only 46 seconds. [See HSCA Record 180-10115-10004, dated September 19, 1977, pages 11 and 12.]
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In those old clunky freight elevators? I have no idea. But probably longer than you or Walt think.
Previous analysis showed about 10 seconds per floor.
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And yet Oswald was able to “assure hisself that he hit his mark”, slowly step down out of sight, wipe the rifle down, hide the rifle, move a box over the top of the gap, and then make it down 8 staircases and landings without being seen or heard by 12 or so people along the way, all in 75-90 seconds.
If the room height is 2800mm.Then it is normally 14 steps.In the TSBD the stairwell was I believe split into two sets of 6/7 steps, going from one floor to the next.This was common in public building and is often built that way for safety reasons. So that in this case the 8 staircases you are referring to is 8 sets of 6/7 steps.
A fit and agile person could decend these steps in 20/30 seconds quite easily. I can skip down 14 steps in under 5 seconds without to much bother.So I suggest your post was a tad misleading as it is only the 20/30 seconds Oswald needed to avoid the other TSBD employees.
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Yep. He sure did. It can be done in under one minute. The HSCA (at a "running" pace) was able to get from the SN on the sixth floor to the 2nd-floor lunchroom in only 46 seconds. [See HSCA Record 180-10115-10004, dated September 19, 1977, pages 11 and 12.]
If Oswald had descended from the 6th floor intending to exit the TSBD, he would have used the other door inside the vestibule. That other door would have placed him in a hallway which led to the 2nd Floor stairs near the TSBD front door. Oswald could have remained in motion, gone down the hallway, descended the stairs, and walked right out the TSBD front door. His allegedly choosing to corner himself inside the 2nd floor Lunch Room makes absolutely no sense.
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For David....The importance of the Belknap seizure as a timestamp.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it.
Mr. ROWLAND - That is a whopper.
I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."
Rowland explained that his wife Barbara was watching a man having a seizure across the road. The man's name was Jerry Belknap. They watched it for a minute or so and only then looked for the gunman. Barbara (or Arnold) did not look immediately to the SW window and perhaps a minute or so he was gone from that position. The call from police at the scene to dispatch over the police radio was placed between 12.18 and 12.19, likely closer to the latter. Dispatch contacts ambulance (606) who is at Harwood and Cedar Springs at 12.20, about 1 mile from Elm and Houston. The ambulance reported they were on the scene at 12.24 and then on their way to Parkland after 12.25.
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Previous analysis showed about 10 seconds per floor.
Thanks, Colin..... IOW....It took Jarman and Norman approximately 50 seconds to go from the first floor to fifth floor. Which means they were on the first floor at about 12:27 or 12:26.... ( Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28 and just a couple of minutes before the motorcade arrived. )
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If Oswald had descended from the 6th floor intending to exit the TSBD, he would have used the other door inside the vestibule. That other door would have placed him in a hallway which led to the 2nd Floor stairs near the TSBD front door. Oswald could have remained in motion, gone down the hallway, descended the stairs, and walked right out the TSBD front door. His allegedly choosing to corner himself inside the 2nd floor Lunch Room makes absolutely no sense.
An Astute observation!!.... I completely agree Royell.....
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To Colin....
Okay. Thanks for the info re: Belknap.
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Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28 and just a couple of minutes before the motorcade arrived.
Where/when did he say that? Certainly not in his WC session.
Plus, there's a need for some more time to pass in order for BRW to join J&N on the 5th floor.....just as James Jarman told the WC here (which is a further indication that Jarman's "12:25 or 12:28" estimate for when they got on the elevator to go up to the fifth floor was not entirely accurate):
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
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Where/when did he say that? Certainly not in his WC session.
Plus, there's a need for some more time to pass in order for BRW to join J&N on the 5th floor.....just as James Jarman told the WC here (which is a further indication that Jarman's "12:25 to 12:28" estimate for when they got on the elevator to go up to the fifth floor was not entirely accurate):
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
"A few minutes" is nothing but a vague reference to a short period of time... Your desperation is hangin out a country mile.
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The Gunman on the Sixth Floor at 12.15
ROWLAND - We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.
Mr. SPECTER - Where was the Hertz time clock located?
Mr. ROWLAND - That was on top of the school depository building.
Mr. SPECTER - Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.
Mr. SPECTER - before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?
Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window. He was standing and holding a rifle....
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Yep. He sure did. It can be done in under one minute.
Then why is it so hard to believe that Norman and Jarman got from the first to the fifth floor in the elevator in a minute or two?
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Yep. He sure did. It can be done in under one minute. The HSCA (at a "running" pace) was able to get from the SN on the sixth floor to the 2nd-floor lunchroom in only 46 seconds. [See HSCA Record 180-10115-10004, dated September 19, 1977, pages 11 and 12.]
"Anything is possible"? That sums up your entire case. No facts, just a lot of "I think" "maybe" etc, and if not that, it is a mask to promote yourself with the customary link completing your daily self-aggrandizing moment.
Drama Queen and Professional gossip master trying to add some more groupies to the already mindless followers you have
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"A few minutes" is nothing but a vague reference to a short period of time... Your desperation is hangin out a country mile.
No more so than your desperation when you say things like this (which you know is not true based on the BRW timeline)....
"Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28 and just a couple of minutes before the motorcade arrived."
There's also this testimony from Bonnie Ray Williams, which destroys the "12:28" timeline....
Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.
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It just goes to show (once again) ---- If you dig into the records and testimony deep enough, you can almost always find something to support whatever position (or timeline) you wish to promote concerning the events of Nov. 22nd.
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"Anything is possible"? That sums up your entire case. No facts, just a lot of "I think" "maybe" etc, and if not that, it is a mask to promote yourself with the customary link completing your daily self-aggrandizing moment.
Drama Queen and Professional gossip master trying to add some more groupies to the already mindless followers you have.
I wonder what prompted the above silly anti-DVP rant? I guess Peter just needed to vent his spleen for some reason.
"No facts"?? Even though I provided the HSCA Record Number for the 46-second run to the 2nd floor. (Must be another "fake" document, huh?)
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I propose this timeline that is consistent with the assembled evidence was as follows.
About 11.50-55am the workers on the 6th floor broke for lunch and used both elevators to descend. Oswald, standing somewhere just east of the east elevator on the fifth floor was observed by those in that elevator as it passed. Those in the west elevator heard the exchange where Oswald requested the gate be shut on the west elevator so that he could call it up after they descended. Norman and Jarman, who were not part of the crew but working on the first floor broke for lunch just after they saw the crew arrive.
At some point, Williams left the TSBD to buy some chicken and or a packet of Fritos. He may have exited via the Houston street dock and returned later by the same route to take the east elevator to the 6th floor. This is why he took about 15 minutes to eventually arrive on the 6th floor and was unnoticed by anyone on the first floor in the time between the break and workers going outside to view the motorcade about 12.10 and later.
He claimed he traveled to the 6th floor in anticipation that Lovelady and Arce would be there already (or arrive shortly after) as they had discussed that morning (unsubstantiated). He may have walked to the windows on the south side of the 6th floor and then walked east along the clear corridor until he reached the last set of windows. He then took up position by the open window in the SN a short time before 12.15pm and at some time after began eating his lunch.
At about 12.10 after eating their lunches Norman and Jarman met up near the southern side of the first floor and went outside with Givens and stood west of the front steps. They initially left with Givens across Houston but turned back to go to the fifth floor after they heard the motorcade reached Main at about 12.22pm. Givens continued across Houston street to join his friends. This was observed by Truly who at that time was positioned east of the steps. After walking north on Houston, Jarman and Norman entered the back door and used the west elevator arrived on the 5th floor opened the windows in the SE corner of the 5th floor about 12.24pm. They noticed the east elevator was on the fifth floor and used to west elevator to ascend. (12.25). Williams joined them a few minutes later just before the arrival of the motorcade.
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No more so than your desperation when you say things like this (which you know is not true based on the BRW timeline)....
"Jarman said they arrived on the fifth floor at 12:28 and just a couple of minutes before the motorcade arrived."
There's also this testimony from Bonnie Ray Williams, which destroys the "12:28" timeline....
Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.
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It just goes to show (once again) ---- If you dig into the records and testimony deep enough, you can almost always find something to support whatever position (or timeline) you wish to promote concerning the events of Nov. 22nd.
Williams was a lair David. Do you want the proof (again)?
These events happened in a specific order.....if you analyse the events there is corroboration in the official documents. They clearly did not play out as the WR and later Bugliosi claimed.
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Williams was a lair David. Do you want the proof (again)?
You think BRW was lying when he said this to the WC? ....
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.
Why did he need to lie about that, Colin?
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Please cite an example of such a thing occurring.
Plus, why wouldn't the other person have the "ability to counter those remarks" even if I did "return to that conversation at a later date"? If it started out as a public "conversation" on a FORUM site, then why can't the other person reply? Please elaborate on why such a reply is impossible from "the other person".
David,
Please cite an example of such a thing occurring.
You posted a link to all the pages on your site that contained my posts. It was there that I saw it.
Plus, why wouldn't the other person have the "ability to counter those remarks" even if I did "return to that conversation at a later date"?
The other person wouldn't be able to respond on your site.
If it started out as a public "conversation" on a FORUM site, then why can't the other person reply?
On that particular forum, you mean? Well, yes it would be possible to post a reply on the original forum but for that to be possible the other person first needs to be aware of whatever it is you have added at a later date on your site. Do you expect people, who you quote on your site (without asking them), to keep on monitoring your site, just in case you may add something to the discussion at a later date?
But even if that did happen, than a reply on the public forum would make no sense unless the added comments on your site were copied to that forum first.
Please elaborate on why such a reply is impossible from "the other person".
Impossible may be a too stronger term, but I have just explained what would be required before it could come to such a reply. I my case, I never read your site and thus I wouldn't have known and didn't know that you had added to the conversation, until you posted that link.
If you wanted to continue the conversation by making additions, why did you do that on your site and not on the public forum?
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You think BRW was lying when he said this to the WC? ....
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.
Why did he need to lie about that, Colin?
Define "a while". If it was a minute or two....he was not lying then.
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Colin, why do you think BRW bought his chicken on the bone sandwich?
Also Shields said that Givens was with him at noon at Main and Record.
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Well, yes it would be possible to post a reply on the original forum but for that to be possible the other person first needs to be aware of whatever it is you have added at a later date on your site.
But it very likely wasn't JUST added on my site. It almost certainly was FIRST posted by me on THE FORUM in question.
Why do you think otherwise?
If you wanted to continue the conversation by making additions, why did you do that on your site and not on the public forum?
I doubt that I did. I very likely posted the comments FIRST on the "forum", then copied it to my site. That's almost always the way I do it. Again---please tell me why you think otherwise?
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Colin, why do you think BRW bought his chicken on the bone sandwich?
Also Shields said that Givens was with him at noon at Main and Record.
I think that Williams left the TSBD for a period to buy something from the nearby cafe. Maybe the Fritos and or the chicken. I seem to remember there is HSCA testimony from Norman that indicated Williams bought his lunch that day. This would explain his disconnect from the others after the elevator race, especially if he took to back door to the cafe and back. When he returned maybe he assumed they were upstairs and used the elevator instead of checking out front.
Givens watched the motorcade with two other guys on Record.
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But it very likely wasn't JUST added on my site. It almost certainly was FIRST posted by me on THE FORUM in question.
Why do you think otherwise?
Because I would have noticed that, as this is the only forum I post on and I get an e-mail whenever a reaction is posted in a thread that I participate in.
I doubt that I did. I very likely posted the comments FIRST on the "forum", then copied it to my site. That's almost always the way I do it. Again---please tell me why you think otherwise?
I just did
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I wonder what prompted the above silly anti-DVP rant? I guess Peter just needed to vent his spleen for some reason.
"No facts"?? Even though I provided the HSCA Record Number for the 46-second run to the 2nd floor. (Must be another "fake" document, huh?)
HSCA is not a court.
You have an obvious conflict of interest making you an unreasonable source of information.
Business as usual for you
Not ant-DVP, he is great for teaching how to talk in the 3rd person point of view. Don't you think he is?
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HSCA is not a court.
Which means you get to just ignore them, eh? (The "Oswald Did It" part of their conclusions anyway. Right?)
You have an obvious conflict of interest making you an unreasonable source of information. Business as usual for you.
This doesn't even make sense. Business as usual for a CTer.
Not [anti]-DVP, he is great for teaching how to talk in the 3rd person point of view. Don't you think he is?
Oh, yeah. Definitely. That DVP guy is great at that.
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Because I would have noticed that, as this is the only forum I post on and I get an e-mail whenever a reaction is posted in a thread that I participate in.
I wish you'd provide a specific instance. Until you do, I'll assume you're probably mistaken. Because I don't normally archive my "at a forum" material in the manner you're describing. It starts at the forum, then goes to my site.
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Where/when did he say that? Certainly not in his WC session.
Plus, there's a need for some more time to pass in order for BRW to join J&N on the 5th floor.....just as James Jarman told the WC here (which is a further indication that Jarman's "12:25 to 12:28" estimate for when they got on the elevator to go up to the fifth floor was not entirely accurate):
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
Here is what Jarman said....
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.
Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the SN or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the SN to join them just before the motorcade arrived?
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A challenge to the LN team....
Assemble here all the evidence you can find that places Jarman and Norman's arrival on the 5th floor prior to Rowland's observation of a 6th floor gunman.
Go for it.....don’t let David dangling.
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Already did, Bill. Try reading previous posts before chiming in.
Yes, Bill.
Helpful Iacoletti suggests that you go back and re-read the first 24 pages until you find it.
If it's there, that is.
-- MWT ;)
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Helpful Iacoletti suggests that you go back and re-read the first 24 pages until you find it.
Hilarious coming from the guy whose evidence for everything is “go read the EF”.
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His T-shirt wasn't "dark". And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Sniper's Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
David,
I like that scenario.
The dark shirt would have served two purposes: wipe-down rag, and a partial disguise in case someone had seen him while wearing the white T-shirt and shooting.
Bravo!
-- MWT ;)
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Already did, Bill. Try reading previous posts before chiming in.
You talk the talk... now show us these 'multiple witnesses'
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Hilarious coming from the guy whose evidence for everything is “go read the EF”.
Iacoletti,
Iirc, I would always tell interested guests and members the name of the thread there, and sometimes even the page number.
The first time I tried to import a thread here from the EF, I found I couldn't do it, probably due to hard feelings towards the EF on Duncan's part, which is totally understandable.
Has Duncan's anti-EF policy changed since then? If so, I'll try to make it a lot easier for you in the future, okay?
-- MWT ;)
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His T-shirt wasn't "dark". And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Sniper's Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
And then as he left the lunchroom to go downstairs to leave the building he took off his shirt and hid it from Mrs Reid to....ummmm?
Was he overheated....thus bought a coke after the Baker confrontation? No need to hurry out now. Did he put it back on before exiting? Lucky Brennan, Ewins (and a hundred others for all he knew) weren't waiting for the shooter in the white shirt to try and escape the building. He probably put it back on again.....do you think....just in case?
Bravo indeed Tommy.....LOL
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And then as he left the lunchroom to go downstairs to leave the building he took off his shirt and hid it from Mrs Reid to....ummmm?
Was he overheated....thus bought a coke after the Baker confrontation? No need to hurry out now. Did he put it back on before exiting? Lucky Brennan, Ewins (and a hundred others for all he knew) weren't waiting for the shooter in the white shirt to try and escape the building. He probably put it back on again.....do you think....just in case?
Bravo indeed Tommy.....LOL
Colin,
Let's speculate about it, shall we, as CTers are wont to do?
He may not have gotten it buttoned yet when Reid allegedly saw him, and therefore the white T-shirt kinda stuck out "like a sore thumb" to her, and that's what she remembered.
Over to you, Mr. Attitude.
-- MWT ;)
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Colin,
Let's speculate about it, shall we, as CTers a wont to do?
He may not have gotten it buttoned yet when Reid allegedly saw him, and therefore the white T-shirt kinda stuck out "like a sore thumb" to her, and that's what she remembered.
Over to you, Mr. Attitude.
-- MWT ;)
No more speculation on David's from me Sir Cumference, rather deal with what the evidence tells us....waiting for the indicators that support Jarman and Norman arriving before Rowland’s gunman in the window observation.
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No more speculation on David's from me Sir Cumference, rather deal with what the evidence tells us....waiting for the indicators that support Jarman and Norman arriving before Rowland’s gunman in the window observation.
Crow,
Go eat some.
-- MWT ;)
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Crow,
Go eat some.
-- MWT ;)
Graves, have a lie down.
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Graves, have a lie down.
Hmm ...
Wanna get morbid?
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A challenge to the LN team....
Assemble here all the evidence you can find that places Jarman and Norman's arrival on the 5th floor prior to Rowland's observation of a 6th floor gunman.
Go for it.....don’t let David dangling.
So far.....the combined efforts are?
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So far.....the combined efforts are?
Upstart Crow,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greene%27s_Groats-Worth_of_Wit
Why are you so impatient?
Not everyone is an insomniac like you and I.
-- MWT ;)
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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm#upper
EXCERPTS:
Mrs. Carolyn Walther was interviewed by the FBI on December 4, 1963, and stated that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on the east side of Houston Street, about 50 or 60 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street.(10) After the ambulance left with the epileptic, Mrs. Walther looked up at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository and saw a man in the southeast corner window of the fourth or fifth floor; according to the FBI report, Mrs. Walther was "positive" the window as being the "most easterly" on the south side of the building.(12)
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.(14) She described the man as having light brown or blond hair and wearing a white shirt.(15) She described the rifle as having a short barrel and being possibly a machine gun. She noticed no other features of the rifle.(16)
Mrs. Walther said also that she saw at the same time a second man standing in the same window to the left of the man with the rifle.(17) This man was wearing a brown suit coat; she could only see his body from the waist to the shoulders and his head was hidden by part of the window.(18)
-----------------------------------
>>> And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest:
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.
>>> Okay sure... assassins are going to expose themselves in such a manner even before the f'kn motorcade arrives. Good catch, Mrs Walther.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0hCvr4N/mrs-walthers.png)
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Upstart Crow,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greene%27s_Groats-Worth_of_Wit
Why are you so impatient?
Not everyone is an insomniac like you and I.
-- MWT ;)
See...there's this thing called timezones......
Why do you think I suffer from insomnia? Assume much?
Sorry to disturb your bliss.
Lost the plot, Graves?
-
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm#upper
EXCERPTS:
Mrs. Carolyn Walther was interviewed by the FBI on December 4, 1963, and stated that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on the east side of Houston Street, about 50 or 60 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street.(10) After the ambulance left with the epileptic, Mrs. Walther looked up at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository and saw a man in the southeast corner window of the fourth or fifth floor; according to the FBI report, Mrs. Walther was "positive" the window as being the "most easterly" on the south side of the building.(12)
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.(14) She described the man as having light brown or blond hair and wearing a white shirt.(15) She described the rifle as having a short barrel and being possibly a machine gun. She noticed no other features of the rifle.(16)
Mrs. Walther said also that she saw at the same time a second man standing in the same window to the left of the man with the rifle.(17) This man was wearing a brown suit coat; she could only see his body from the waist to the shoulders and his head was hidden by part of the window.(18)
-----------------------------------
>>> And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest:
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.
>>> Okay sure... assassins are going to expose themselves in such a manner even before the f'kn motorcade arrives. Good catch, Mrs Walther.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0hCvr4N/mrs-walthers.png)
Mrs. Walther told the FBI that almost immediately after she saw the second man in the window, the presidential motorcade approached on Houston Street.(19)
You dropped this from your cut and paste Bill. Intentional?
In answer to your question.....a successful one it seems. One that "exposed" himself with weapon in hand 15 minutes before the arrival of the target.
Also....
"In an FBI interview on December 5, 1963, Mrs. Ruby Henderson related that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on the east side of Elm Street "just north of Houston Street."(1) She said that right after an ambulance left the area with a man who had suffered an epileptic seizure, she looked up at the Texas School Book Depository; she Saw two men in the window on one of the upper floors.(2) She could not recall exactly which floor they were on, but stated that she did not recall seeing any other persons on any floors above the two men.(3)."
Note again both Walther and Henderson reference Belknap's seizure.....a key point for determining timing.
-
See...there's this thing called timezones......
Why do you think I suffer from insomnia? Assume much?
Sorry to disturb your bliss.
Lost the plot, Graves?
Why are you so impatient, Mr. Attitude?
-
>>> And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest:
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.
>>> Okay sure... assassins are going to expose themselves in such a manner even before the f'kn motorcade arrives. Good catch, Mrs Walther.
This is the same Bill Chapman who gets righteously indignant if you question a single thing that Howard Brennan claimed.
-
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm#upper
EXCERPTS:
Mrs. Carolyn Walther was interviewed by the FBI on December 4, 1963, and stated that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on the east side of Houston Street, about 50 or 60 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street.(10) After the ambulance left with the epileptic, Mrs. Walther looked up at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository and saw a man in the southeast corner window of the fourth or fifth floor; according to the FBI report, Mrs. Walther was "positive" the window as being the "most easterly" on the south side of the building.(12)
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.(14) She described the man as having light brown or blond hair and wearing a white shirt.(15) She described the rifle as having a short barrel and being possibly a machine gun. She noticed no other features of the rifle.(16)
Mrs. Walther said also that she saw at the same time a second man standing in the same window to the left of the man with the rifle.(17) This man was wearing a brown suit coat; she could only see his body from the waist to the shoulders and his head was hidden by part of the window.(18)
-----------------------------------
>>> And another one flies over the cuckoo's nest:
Mrs. Walther saw the man was holding a rifle in his hands; the barrel of the rifle was pointing downward and the man was looking toward Houston Street.(13) Both his hands were extended across the window ledge.
>>> Okay sure... assassins are going to expose themselves in such a manner even before the f'kn motorcade arrives. Good catch, Mrs Walther.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0hCvr4N/mrs-walthers.png)
>>> Okay sure... assassins are going to expose themselves in such a manner even before the f'kn motorcade arrives. Good catch, Mrs Walther.
If the man appeared to be a "Security Guard"....and was dressed in light colored khaki clothing like a sheriff's deputy, then he wouldn't have been concerned about being seen. (Several witnesses said that they thought the man was a "Security Guard")
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His T-shirt wasn't "dark". And there are witnesses who said Oswald often worked in only his T-shirt.
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK while wearing just his white T-shirt. His brown "arrest" shirt was likely lying at his feet in the Sniper's Nest (or on a box nearby). Oswald then used the brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced to the northwest corner of the TSBD after the final shot. He then put the brown shirt on as he was quickly descending the stairs to the 2nd floor---leaving the shirt unbuttoned (see Marrion Baker's testimony; with Baker mistaking the shirt for a jacket).
Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK
There you go again, admitting you do not know. Sorry Dave, but you said "Oswald (IMO) probably shot JFK"
You also make suggestions as if you're brainstorming "shirt was likely lying at his feet..." and "(or on a box nearby)". You are not sure of yourself
Then you change to complete certainly as if you witnessed this part: "Oswald then used....shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag as he raced"???????
Again you are suggesting Oswald was racing around. The problem is your witness describes the man's demeanor
He didn't seem to be in a great rush, hurry, he seemed to pause for a moment
--Howard Brennen
So, David, you are talking about something that did not happen and Brennen is talking about some other guy and not Oswald
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I provided the HSCA Record Number for the 46-second run to the 2nd floor. (Must be another "fake" document, huh?)
That same grandstanding was also done by Gerald Ford years before. Starting at the stairway- it was- on your mark, get set, go -without traversing from the alleged sniper's window.. through stacks of boxes..wiping off and hiding a supposed rifle...then descending with reckless abandon ...but not proceeding to the Coke machine ....purchasing a soda...and then assuming the posture of complete at ease.
Instead of confirming the Oswald did it myth...it dispelled it.
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That same grandstanding was also done by Gerald Ford years before. Starting at the stairway- it was- on your mark, get set, go -without traversing from the alleged sniper's window.. through stacks of boxes..wiping off and hiding a supposed rifle...then descending with reckless abandon ...but not proceeding to the Coke machine ....purchasing a soda...and then assuming the posture of complete at ease.
Instead of confirming the Oswald did it myth...it dispelled it.
If the Warren Commission had "re-enacted the imaginary actions of Lee Oswald after the shooting they would have proven that their imaginary scenario was utterly impossible. They knew that...and therefore twisted the facts and did not use accurate data ....
Here's a list of the altered and twisted facts...( in no particular order)
A) They said that the killer ( LHO) departed the SN immediately and dashed to the second floor lunchroom...But their prime witness ( Brennan) told them that the man that he saw STANDING and aiming a hunting rifle out of a window was NOT in any hurry... They simply ignored Brennan...
B) They said that the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssswald ( Boo... Hiss) Sat on a box and calmly shot the President as he rode by....Brennan told them that the man he saw was STANDING...not sitting. They simply ignore Brennan
C) They examined the clothing that Lee was wearing and found that he had left a tuft of fibers from the DARK colored shirt on the butt of the rifle.... Howard Brennan told them that the man was wearing Light colored khaki clothing..... and Lee didn't even own any light colored khaki clothes... The simply ignored Brennan.
They claimed that Lee Oswald had used a Mannlicher Carcano to shoot JFK...But Howard Brennan told them that the man was aiming a "high powered" rifle which is a term that is synonymous with "hunting rifle''.... Brennan ventured a guess that the rifle that he saw "all of the barrel of" was a 30-30 Winchester.
They ignored his description and decided that it was the carcano that was used.
I could go on and on ......But I've got other things to do right now.
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Mrs. Walther told the FBI that almost immediately after she saw the second man in the window, the presidential motorcade approached on Houston Street.(19)
You dropped this from your cut and paste Bill. Intentional?
In answer to your question.....a successful one it seems. One that "exposed" himself with weapon in hand 15 minutes before the arrival of the target.
Also....
"In an FBI interview on December 5, 1963, Mrs. Ruby Henderson related that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on the east side of Elm Street "just north of Houston Street."(1) She said that right after an ambulance left the area with a man who had suffered an epileptic seizure, she looked up at the Texas School Book Depository; she Saw two men in the window on one of the upper floors.(2) She could not recall exactly which floor they were on, but stated that she did not recall seeing any other persons on any floors above the two men.(3)."
Note again both Walther and Henderson reference Belknap's seizure.....a key point for determining timing.
You dropped this from your cut and paste Bill. Intentional?
>>> LOL. I provided the link to the entire HSCA article. And why are you lot so phobic about C&P?
My point: Why would any shooter expose himself in the manner in which Walther described? Sounds like looney-tunes to me.
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This is the same Bill Chapman who gets righteously indignant if you question a single thing that Howard Brennan claimed.
Nah, just your telling us what Brennan saw or didn't see... add Euins, Brewer, and every LNer to that
Now go ahead and address the point I made about why any shooter would hang out a window the way Walther described, and let me add why SecondMan wouldn't pull him back at least a little.
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Nah, just your telling us what Brennan saw or didn't see... add Euins, Brewer, etc to that
Now go ahead and address the point I made about why any shooter would hang out a window the way Walther described, and let me add why SecondMan wouldn't pull him back at least a little.
The man stuck the rifle out of the window to enable James Powell to take a photo which showed "the assassin's rifle sticking out of the window....Never mind that Powell took the photo a few minutes before the motorcade arrived...Nobody would have questioned the authenticity of his photo .....If Tom Dillard hadn't taken a nearly identical photo that refuted Powell's staged photo. Incidentally...I believe the seizure victim was staged to draw the attention of the crowd to the flashing red lights of the ambulance so Powell and the man on the sixth floor could take the photo unnoticed by the spectators.
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That same grandstanding was also done by Gerald Ford years before. Starting at the stairway- it was- on your mark, get set, go -without traversing from the alleged sniper's window.. through stacks of boxes..wiping off and hiding a supposed rifle...then descending with reckless abandon ...but not proceeding to the Coke machine ....purchasing a soda...and then assuming the posture of complete at ease.
Instead of confirming the Oswald did it myth...it dispelled it.
Link?
Oh, wait..
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Nah, just your telling us what Brennan saw or didn't see... add Euins, Brewer, and every LNer to that
Now go ahead and address the point I made about why any shooter would hang out a window the way Walther described, and let me add why SecondMan wouldn't pull him back at least a little.
Don't you understand, Bill?
They were framing "Oswald-in-the-Sniper's-Nest" before they shot JFK fifteen times from the front and both sides, and at least once from the roof of the DalTex Building.
-- MWT ;)
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It is completely utterly ridiculous to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so. If that forms part of the conspiracy case then it's a joke. Have a day off will yer..
He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...
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Nah, just your telling us what Brennan saw or didn't see... add Euins, Brewer, and every LNer to that
But somehow you get to do that with Walther and Randle. Because you’re a hypocrite.
Now go ahead and address the point I made about why any shooter would hang out a window the way Walther described, and let me add why SecondMan wouldn't pull him back at least a little.
What is there to address? Your guess about what a shooter would do? Why would a shooter have made himself visible to Brennan and Euins either? Your special pleading knows no bounds.
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It is completely utterly ridiculous to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so. If that forms part of the conspiracy case then it's a joke. Have a day off will yer..
He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...
It is completely utterly ridiculous to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so.
Who is actually suggesting this?
He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...
So, what's your point? That he could have made it?.... Really?
Perhaps you should consider this;
The wooden stairs of the TSBD were old and noisy. Running down the stairs normally goes faster than going up, but going down at a higher rate of speed would likely produce more sound, wouldn't it? So, how come nobody on the 5th, 4th or 3rd floor heard or saw anything post shots? Especially, Dorothy Garner, who according to the Stroud letter, said that after Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had gone down the stairs, she saw Baker and Truly come up. Are we really to believe that Oswald, running down the stairs, would not have been noticed by either Adams, Styles or Garner?
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So, how come nobody on the 5th, 4th or 3rd floor heard or saw anything post shots? Especially, Dorothy Garner, who according to the Stroud letter, said that after Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had gone down the stairs, she saw Baker and Truly come up. Are we really to believe that Oswald, running down the stairs, would not have been noticed by either Adams, Styles or Garner?
Or heard? This has never been answered nor will it ever be. The Warren Commission dismissed all these people's testimony.
Talk about..completely utterly ridiculous ???
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But somehow you get to do that with Walther and Randle. Because you’re a hypocrite.
What is there to address? Your guess about what a shooter would do? Why would a shooter have made himself visible to Brennan and Euins either? Your special pleading knows no bounds.
Randle's claims are physically measureable; not to mention her brother was the one who delivered the accused to the eventual scene of the crime. Those are valid points to consider, like it or not.
Re Walters, there were dark-complected people hanging out of windows, all right. And '4th or 5th floor' is not the 6th floor
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It is completely utterly ridiculous to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so.
Who is actually suggesting this?
He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...
So, what's your point? That he could have made it?.... Really?
Perhaps you should consider this;
The wooden stairs of the TSBD were old and noisy. Running down the stairs normally goes faster than going up, but the speed going down at a higher rate of speed would likely produce more sound, wouldn't it? So, how come nobody on the 5th, 4th or 3rd floor heard or saw anything post shots? Especially, Dorothy Garner, who according to the Stroud letter, said that after Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had gone down the stairs, she saw Baker and Truly come up. Are we really to believe that Oswald, running down the stairs, would not have been noticed by either Adams, Styles or Garner?
Don't forget Dorman, who could have given testimony on the movement of Adams, Styles and Garner. Nor JED at the back of fifth, not far from the lifts.
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Link?
Oh, wait..
What a great learning experience for you Bill?
They found an empty warehouse,
A 5 ft 9-inch fitness instructor, BTW named Richard, Richard Simmons??? Is he that tall???
And then Bartles & James to be the judges in the Sesame Street-like reenactment to challenge Oliver Stone
Those 2 tricky shoe boxes they placed at the top of the stairs wow! the suspense was intense, the clown was barely able to place the rifle between them. What a nail-biter
I always knew there wasn't a SN, not one in the video either
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Randle's claims are physically measureable
Yes, yes, they are. In fact she did an experiment where they did a physical measurement.
Re Walters, there were dark-complected people hanging out of windows, all right. And '4th or 5th floor' is not the 6th floor
Who’s Walters? What are you babbling about now? Walther didn’t say anything about dark-completed people.
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Only because I'm kind of stuck with the "12:15 PM" time you've placed on Rowland's observation of Rifle Man. But I think a better chronology is probably to move up Rowland's 12:15 Rifle Man sighting to right after Givens cigarette trip and just before Williams arrives on 6th floor.
But we must always remember that all "witness times" are approximate times. They're not written in stone. And it's not reasonable to assume that EVERY witness nailed their times right to the minute.
And, as I said previously, it's possible Oswald needed to go back down to the first floor a little later than 12:15 and then return to his Nest. We'll never know for sure.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
PS. David feel free to post any on these posts of mine on your website, (as you see fit). :)
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Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
PS. David feel free to post any on these posts of mine on your website, (as you see fit). :)
Norman did NOT go to the fifth floor at 12:15..... Junior Jarman testified that they left the front of the TSBD at about 12:25 and arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28. The time of 12:25 was verified by the police radio transmission of the location of the motorcade ......
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr jarman - To the fifth floor.
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Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.
Exactly Walt, the motorcade reached Main about 12.22pm. I wonder if Norman heard this over the same radio that Rowland mentioned. Remember that initially Jarman and Norman crossed Houston with Givens and turned back. Perhaps they were close enough to hear on that radio.
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Exactly Walt, the motorcade reached Main about 12.22pm. I wonder if Norman heard this over the same radio that Rowland mentioned. Remember that initially Jarman and Norman crossed Houston with Givens and turned back. Perhaps they were close enough to hear on that radio.
There are photos that show a motorcycle parked near the front of the TSBD.....I assume that was the source of the radio transmission that Jarman heard.
There's no doubt that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor shipping room at about 12:26....And Lee Oswald saw them..... He could not have known that they walked through the shipping room if he had not been in the area.
Lee's casual mention of seeing "Junior" and another short Negro passing through the area was never intended to be an alibi. ( He was unaware that he needed an alibi) At the time Lee when Lee was relating his whereabouts at the time the President passed the building he had no idea that he needed an alibi for that period. He was simply telling the interrogators where he was, and what he was doing when the President passed by......and he recalled seeing "Junior" and another short Negro pas through the area.
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There are photos that show a motorcycle parked near the front of the TSBD.....I assume that was the source of the radio transmission that Jarman heard.
There's no doubt that Jarman and Norman passed through the first floor shipping room at about 12:26....And Lee Oswald saw them..... He could not have known that they walked through the shipping room if he had not been in the area.
Lee's casual mention of seeing "Junior" and another short Negro passing through the area was never intended to be an alibi. ( He was unaware that he needed an alibi) At the time Lee when Lee was relating his whereabouts at the time the President passed the building he had no idea that he needed an alibi for that period. He was simply telling the interrogators where he was, and what he was doing when the President passed by......and he recalled seeing "Junior" and another short Negro pas through the area.
Looking at the floor plan of the first floor I think it’s more likely he saw them pass by the window than walking in the building. They initially went to the east elevator......the line of sight from the domino room door makes it difficult unless he was sitting on the southern bench seat.
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Looking at the floor plan of the first floor I think it’s more likely he saw them pass by the window than walking in the building. They initially went to the east elevator......the line of sight from the domino room door makes it difficult unless he was sitting on the southern bench seat.
Since the Domino Room was in the North east corner of the first floor with windows on the east and north sides of the room Lee could easily have seen Jarman and Norman walk by and then heard them enter and walk to the west elevator.....I certainly don't know where they were when he saw them, but there's no doubt that he did see them. He may have deduced that they entered the back door simply by seeing them walk by the windows and then heard the elevator as they climbed aboard .
I don't believe the details are important.... The FACT is; Lee was NOT on the sixth floor just a couple of minutes before the shots were fired....And it's not rational or logical to think that if he was preparing to shoot the Pres, that he'd be five floors beneath the alleged "Sniper's Nest" ....particularly when the parade was scheduled to be at Houston and Elm at 12:20....and at the Trade mart at 12:30....
The LNer's believe that Lee plotted and planned to murder JFK..... I'd hasten tp point out that if he had plotted the murder he wouldn't have been sitting in the Domino Room at the very moment the parade was scheduled to pass by the building.
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It is completely utterly ridiculous to suggest a fit and active 24 year old couldn't get from the 6th floor to the second floor in 90 seconds or so.
Who is actually suggesting this?
He would be in with a chance of getting from the 6th floor to the second floor and back up to the SN in 90 seconds.Now that would be a close run but...from the 6th to the 2nd in 90 secs...
So, what's your point? That he could have made it?.... Really?
Perhaps you should consider this;
The wooden stairs of the TSBD were old and noisy. Running down the stairs normally goes faster than going up, but going down at a higher rate of speed would likely produce more sound, wouldn't it? So, how come nobody on the 5th, 4th or 3rd floor heard or saw anything post shots? Especially, Dorothy Garner, who according to the Stroud letter, said that after Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had gone down the stairs, she saw Baker and Truly come up. Are we really to believe that Oswald, running down the stairs, would not have been noticed by either Adams, Styles or Garner?
Again this argument carries very little credence. Yes going down the stirwell would make some noise, but if a person was trying to avoid detection they are hardly likely to come down fe-fi-foing now are they...and there's also the fact that the commotion and noise coming from the throngs of people out on the street would've drowned out any noise coming from the stirwell...and please remember the action was outside so the people on floors 3/4/5 would've obviously be looking out of the building to try and see what actually happened. By the time Baker & Truly hit the stirwell,the person decending, given the timeline, could've easily been on the second floor. And you make it sound as if it is impossible for the person decending to avoid being seen.
Nothing in this thread or in any other thread gives any real reason why a fit and active person could not decend from the 6th to the 2nd, in the time frame, without being seen or heard.Nothing. Whether that person was Oswald or whether Oswald was the shooter, is another matter.I believe he was the shooter.Others may differ.
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Walt,
The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.
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Walt,
The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.
the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.
the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was luck.... Luck?? Could Lee have simply made a lucky guess that "Junior" (Jarman) and his companion a little short Negro ( Norman) had walked past the Domino room at 12:26??
The odds are astronomical.... And if he hadn't seen them do you believe he would have made such a WAG and told the interrogators that he had seen them as they traveled from the front of the TSBD to the west elevator?? Lee wasn't stupid .....He would have known that the cops would likely verify every word he uttered.
or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.
Lee didn't know either Jarman or Norman....He recognized that they were employees when he saw them walk by but he didn't know them....So how the hell would he identify them by the sound of their voices through the floor of the sixth floor if he had been there??
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Walt,
The majority LN view is that he was not downstairs at that time and the naming of 2 people who just happened to walk through that area just prior to the shooting was either luck or him hearing them on the 5th whilst he was on the 6th.
So, if he heard them on the 5th, just minutes before the shots, how would that qualify for any type of alibi? He mentions two witnesses he knows were within a few feet of the SN at the time of the assassination. How did he know where they had been in the previous 30 minutes? They had not even associated until just before they went to the front steps. If he had been on the 6th floor just after noon, for all he knew they could have been anywhere. Obviously Williams said nothing on his arrival with them or his voice was not distinctive.
I suggest the LN position is best left as "no idea" or "pure luck".
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Again this argument carries very little credence. Yes going down the stirwell would make some noise, but if a person was trying to avoid detection they are hardly likely to come down fe-fi-foing now are they...and there's also the fact that the commotion and noise coming from the throngs of people out on the street would've drowned out any noise coming from the stirwell...and please remember the action was outside so the people on floors 3/4/5 would've obviously be looking out of the building to try and see what actually happened. By the time Baker & Truly hit the stirwell,the person decending, given the timeline, could've easily been on the second floor. And you make it sound as if it is impossible for the person decending to avoid being seen.
Nothing in this thread or in any other thread gives any real reason why a fit and active person could not decend from the 6th to the 2nd, in the time frame, without being seen or heard.Nothing. Whether that person was Oswald or whether Oswald was the shooter, is another matter.I believe he was the shooter.Others may differ.
if a person was trying to avoid detection they are hardly likely to come down fe-fi-foing now are they.
You don't know if he was on the 6th floor
What about the yahoo on the 5th floor who said he heard casings hitting the ground.
Would a person who says he heard casings striking the ground but then say he did not hear a person racing down the stairwell have a case of selective hearing?
Or would an alleged shooter let 3 casings be heard hitting the ground but then race across the 6th floor and down the stairs selectively avoid detection?
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So, if he heard them on the 5th, just minutes before the shots, how would that qualify for any type of alibi? He mentions two witnesses he knows were within a few feet of the SN at the time of the assassination. How did he know where they had been in the previous 30 minutes? They had not even associated until just before they went to the front steps. If he had been on the 6th floor just after noon, for all he knew they could have been anywhere. Obviously Williams said nothing on his arrival with them or his voice was not distinctive.
I suggest the LN position is best left as "no idea" or "pure luck".
Colin,
What did Killer Oswald have to lose by offering that as an alibi?
If he heard Jarman and Norman one floor below him, he could reasonably assume that they had passed sufficiently near the D.R. to be visible to someone inside the D.R. while on their way there (to the fifth floor), or even earlier while possibly exiting the building from the front.
Do you think Killer Oswald could have come up with a better alibi than that?
-- MWT ;)
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Colin,
What did Killer Oswald have to lose by offering that as an alibi?
If he heard Jarman and Norman one floor below him, he could reasonably assume that they had passed sufficiently near the D.R. to be visible to someone inside the D.R. while on their way there (to the fifth floor), or even earlier while possibly exiting the building from the front.
Do you think Killer Oswald could have come up with a better alibi than that?
-- MWT ;)
A "killer Oswald", protesting innocence, has nothing to gain by claiming to have been within earshot of two people he knows were directly underneath him at the time of the shooting. An 'innocent Oswald, claiming innocence, would offer any observation he felt that might substantiate his claim of occupying the domino room within minutes of the shooting.
Here is an analogy, probably not great but I'll give it a shot.
Jim is apprehended by police and accused of not stopping after a collision with a pedestrian. The accident occurred on a road Jim routinely takes and he knows Harry and John who work with him also take the same road every day. Just minutes before the accident, Jim saw them a few cars back in his rear view mirror. Harry and John stop at and provide assistance to the pedestrian shortly after the event. When apprehended he pleads innocence by claiming was driving just behind them when the accident happened as his alibi.
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Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
PS. David feel free to post any on these posts of mine on your website, (as you see fit). :)
As an update the Dallas police logs show that the ambulance was called to Dealey Plaza by officer 289 between 12.18 and 12.19pm
"Give us an ambulance, 100 block North Houston Street. Epileptic seizure."
Also.....
this comment by Rowland "There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us
Would this mean that as Rowland was on the east side of Houston the bike would be parked on the same side closer to the intersection of Houston and Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed. But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
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A "killer Oswald", protesting innocence, has nothing to gain by claiming to have been within earshot of two people he knows were directly underneath him at the time of the shooting.
It's unlikely the investigators would be able to put "2 plus 2 together" and realize that:
1) Oswald could hear Jarman and Norman below him
2) Oswald recognized their voices
3) Oswald concocted his D.R. alibi based on the above two factors, plus his remembering that anyone walking in the front door and going upstairs could be seen by someone sitting in the D.R. but wouldn't necessarily be seen by that person, himself.
Even if his alibi doesn't "wash" with the investigators because, for example, Jarman and Norman entered the building from the rear rather than from the front, or they never even went outside during the lunch break, what has Killer Oswald got to lose by proffering it?
-- MWT ;)
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It's unlikely the investigators would be able to put 2 plus 2 together and realize that:
1) Oswald could hear Jarman and Norman below him
2) Oswald recognized their voices
3) Oswald concocted his D.R. alibi based on the above two factors
-- MWT ;)
I might counter with, it is unlikely that anyone in his position would underestimate the ability of the authorities to investigate and appraise evidence (yet I might also argue that they did not!). He knew how long it takes to go from DR to SN.....saying he ate lunch with them in the DR offers him nothing at the end of the day because he knew they were not there at the relevant time.
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I might counter with, it is unlikely that anyone in his position would underestimate the ability of the authorities to investigate and appraise evidence (yet I might also argue that they did not!). He knew how long it takes to go from DR to SN.....saying he ate lunch with them in the DR offers him nothing at the end of the day because he knew they were not there at the relevant time.
Colin,
I was still editing and expanding my last post, above, when you posted this.
You may want to go take a look at it now ...
-- MWT ;)
PS K.O. didn't say he ate lunch with them in the D.R., did he?
Iirc, he just said that he saw them "walk through the room", i.e., that part of the first floor which is within view of someone sitting in the D.R. with its only door open.
-
Even if his alibi doesn't "wash" with the investigators because, for example, Jarman and Norman entered the building from the rear rather than from the front, or they never even went outside during the lunch break, what has Killer Oswald got to lose by proffering it?
-- MWT ;)
If his alibi doesn't wash? He saw employees in the City Hall upon his arrest. It lasts until they talk to Norman and Jarman. Was he expecting a daring escape before that happened?
One might expect it to last an hour or so.
You do know that they did enter via the rear, don't you? Much of the debate is predicated on that fact.
Tell me what "killer Oswald" had to gain from this, apart from sending the cops on a (brief) wild goose chase.
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3) Oswald concocted his D.R. alibi based on the above two factors, plus his remembering that anyone walking in the front door and going upstairs could be seen by someone sitting in the D.R. but wouldn't necessarily be seen by that person, himself.
-- MWT ;)
How could anyone sitting in he D.R. see anybody walking in the front door?
-
PS K.O. didn't say he ate lunch with them in the D.R., did he?
Depends on which report you want to believe.
-
Depends on which report you want to believe.
That's right, Iacoletti, and whether or not you have to have someone read them to you because all you can see are blobs.
-- MWT ;)
-
Yes, yes, they are. In fact she did an experiment where they did a physical measurement.
They did a physical measurement based on an estimation. Lets see you get a 27" package to her testified-to 'almost touch the ground'
Who’s Walters?
>>> The result of an assault from my spellchecker
What are you babbling about now? Walther didn’t say anything about dark-completed people.
>>> Exactly right. She indeed didn't say dark-completed people.
-
How could anyone sitting in he D.R. see anybody walking in the front door?
You really do need to read more carefully, Old Chap.
I believe I said (somewhere), "... as they walked past the D.R., or through an area of the first floor that was visible to someone sitting in the D.R.", or words to that effect.
-- MWT ;)
-
That's right, Iacoletti, and whether or not you have to have someone read them to you because all you can see are blobs.
Why don’t you try learning the evidence rather than just making stupid remarks all the time?
-
Why don’t you try learning the evidence rather than just making stupid remarks all the time?
Iacoletti,
Have I mischaracterized the evidence?
If so, how?
-- MWT ;)
-
Have I mischaracterized the evidence?
Frequently.
But in this case you were just ignorant about the fact that both Fritz and Kelly reported Oswald saying he had lunch with Norman and Jarman.
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They did a physical measurement based on an estimation. Lets see you get a 27" package to her testified-to 'almost touch the ground'
Wrong. They did what you claimed to do. The difference is that Randle was there to make sure they were reproducing what she actually saw. You’re guessing where he held the package and what “almost touched the ground” means. Randle wins.
>>> Exactly right. She indeed didn't say dark-completed people.
So then why did you say this:
“Re Walters [sic], there were dark-complected people hanging out of windows, all right.”
-
Frequently.
But in this case you were just ignorant about the fact that both Fritz and Kelly reported Oswald saying he had lunch with Norman and Jarman.
And Bookhout, what did he say, if anything?
-- MWT ;)
-
And Bookhout, what did he say, if anything?
How about you go read his report and find out?
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How about you go read his report and find out?
Iacoletti,
You mean this one?
OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called ‘Junior’ and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize.
(WR, p.622)
-- MWT ;)
PS: Expected response: "Ah Ha! You found that in ... (LOL) ... the Warren Report!"
PPS What? Prevaricator K.O. told Fritz and Kelley he had lunch with Jarman and Norman?
Hmm
Was that before or after he told Bookhout that he'd only seen them walk through "the room" ... be it the single-doored Domino Room, the second floor lunch room, or the first floor kinda in general?
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Congratulations.
Now do you understand why you were ignorant when you said this? Did you only know what Bookhout said?
PS K.O. didn't say he ate lunch with them in the D.R., did he?
Iirc, he just said that he saw them "walk through the room", i.e., that part of the first floor which is within view of someone sitting in the D.R. with its only door open.
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Congratulations.
Now do you understand why you were ignorant when you said this? Did you only know what Bookhout said?
Huh?
Oh, I see your point.
I should have specified that I was referring to the Bookhout report, in which Oswald had apparently settled on what he thought was his "most likely to fly" alibi.
Sorry.
My bad.
-- MWT ;)
-
Frequently.
But in this case you were just ignorant about the fact that both Fritz and Kelly reported Oswald saying he had lunch with Norman and Jarman.
That's not what Jarman said
-
Was that before or after he told Bookhout that he'd only seen them walk through "the room" ... the single-doored Domino Room, the second floor lunch room, or the first floor kinda in general?
You do realize that Fritz, Bookhout, Kelly, and Hosty all attended the same interrogation, right?
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That's not what Jarman said
Indeed. But Tommy wasn’t aware that Fritz and Kelly claimed that Oswald said that.
-
That's not what Jarman said
Bill,
What did Jarman say?
(LOL)
-- MWT ;)
--
-
Indeed. But Tommy wasn’t aware that Fritz and Kelly claimed that Oswald said that.
Iacoletti,
Well, maybe K.O. told them so many different lies in that little room about were he was at lunchtime that they all kinda threw up their hands on that issue and wrote down the version they remembered best, or the one they thought sounded the best, or sumthin'.
-- MWT ;)
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Bill,
What did Jarman say?
(LOL)
-- MWT ;)
--
Go to his wc testimony
In short he said that he ate his sandwich while walking around on the first floor attempting to go to front
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Wrong. They did what you claimed to do. The difference is that Randle was there to make sure they were reproducing what she actually saw. You’re guessing where he held the package and what “almost touched the ground” means. Randle wins.
>>> I'm not guessing at anything. Randle says McNeely was holding the package like a baseball bat, whatever configuration that means to her.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pTTpPnb/casual-baseball-bat-grip.png)
If the grip fits, you must not acquit... Johnny
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As an update the Dallas police logs show that the ambulance was called to Dealey Plaza by officer 289 between 12.18 and 12.19pm
"Give us an ambulance, 100 block North Houston Street. Epileptic seizure."
Also.....
this comment by Rowland "There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us
Would this mean that as Rowland was on the east side of Houston the bike would be parked on the same side closer to the intersection of Houston and Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed. But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
And the evidence for David's sequence that has Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor before Rowlan's sighting on a man with a rifle is?
Still being compiled I guess.
Should I be more virtuous Tommy?
-
Should I be more virtuous[,]Tommy?
-- Upstart Crow
Regarding what?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
-
Should I be more virtuous[,]Tommy?
-- Upstart Crow
Regarding what?
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy ;)
Relating to my (im)patience.....maybe they are looking....while I wait, what is your position? Rowland's gunman sighting before or after the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor?
PS....Duncan has a dislike for double blank spaces in posts.
PPS...are you accusing me of being a plagiarist or social climber?
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>>> I'm not guessing at anything. Randle says McNeely was holding the package like a baseball bat, whatever configuration that means to her.
She had McNeely hold a package the same way she saw Oswald do it. She had no supervision over Chapman’s alleged test.
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Well, maybe K.O. told them so many different lies in that little room about were he was at lunchtime that they all kinda threw up their hands on that issue and wrote down the version they remembered best, or the one they thought sounded the best, or sumthin'.
Maybe.
But “Iirc” you were unaware that there were other versions at all.
-
Relating to my (im)patience.....maybe they are looking....while I wait, what is your position? Rowland's gunman sighting before or after the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor?
PS....Duncan has a dislike for double blank spaces in posts.
PPS...are you accusing me of being a plagiarist or social climber?
Colin, You initiated this thread.....("The Domino Room Alibi")... Please don't go off the tracks.
I realize that the subject is rather narrow and there's not much to discuss.....but I'm waiting for Von P to start his yapping again.
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Colin, You initiated this thread.....("The Domino Room Alibi")... Please don't go off the tracks.
I realize that the subject is rather narrow and there's not much to discuss.....but I'm waiting for Von P to start his yapping again.
Walt, DVP initiated the thread. I would contend that the sequence has everything to do with the alibi. Clearly Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor after Rowland sees the man with a rifle on the 6th. David contends otherwise.....I am still waiting for anything that might be offered to support his narrative.
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Walt, DVP initiated the thread. I would contend that the sequence has everything to do with the alibi. Clearly Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor after Rowland sees the man with a rifle on the 6th. David contends otherwise.....I am still waiting for anything that might be offered to support his narrative.
Yes, I believe that you're right...Jarman and Norman were probably still at the front of the TSBD at the time that Rowland saw the light colored khaki clothing clad "Security Guard" ( J&N may not have reached the front of the TSBD at the time Rowland saw the "Security Guard". They could still have been inside the TSBD eating their lunch at the time Rowland spotted the "guard" with the rifle )
You may recall that a man had an epileptic seizure directly across the street fro the Rowlands....That occurred at about 12:15 ( the ambulance was called at 12:18)
An event like that would draw attention, and it's very unlikely that Rowland would have been looking at the TSBD with that kind of activity happening across the street from his location. So he must have spotted the "Security Guard" prior to the epileptic seizure. And..... If he saw the "guard" after the seizure event one would think that he would have used that event as reference point. I don't recall if Rowland mentioned the epileptic seizure ??.....
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She had McNeely hold a package the same way she saw Oswald do it.
>>> Which was described by her as like a baseball bat
She had no supervision over Chapman’s alleged test.
>>> Chapman's alleged test can be easily duplicated
This grip is the one placing any 24/27/34.8"-length at its lowest position to the ground.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pTTpPnb/casual-baseball-bat-grip.png)
If the grip fits, you can't acquit
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If the grip fits, you can't acquit
1. What does that mean? 2. What does it have to do with the domino room?
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PS....Duncan has a dislike for double blank spaces in posts.
I do too. Why space at all and add [BTW] senseless/unnecessary images?--Like the guy with the stick above for instance.
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She had McNeely hold a package the same way she saw Oswald do it.
>>> Which was described by her as like a baseball bat
You're still not getting it. She had McNeeley hold an object in a bag with the same grip and distance to the ground that she saw Oswald with that day. And then they measured the bag. Your guessing games are irrelevant.
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I believe Carolyn Arnold said she wasn't sure about where and when she may ?? have seen Lee Oswald..... So how can YOU be sure?
But she did...between 12:00 and 12:15 on the first floor and the Oswald Didits have ignored it for 55 years....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=44
May I see the lead poster's response please?
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You're still not getting it. She had McNeeley hold an object in a bag with the same grip and distance to the ground that she saw Oswald with that day. And then they measured the bag. Your guessing games are irrelevant.
Go ahead, try it yourself. And perhaps you can deign to provide us a cite to the newest McNeely details you've just claimed?
Between the 24/27/34.8" lengths nominated, the latter is the only length that can be shown to be 'almost touching the ground'. A 5'9" individual would have to be in a noticeable crouch in order to have a 27" package 'almost touch the ground'
Edit 'to' to 'you'
8:51 EST
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Bonnie Ray Williams testified that he was on the sixth floor until around 12:20 and saw no one there....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=181
If you can't relate, then obfuscate, deviate, denigrate - rinse, wash and repeat.
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It was well-written, concise, and, unlike many posts on this forum (take yours,for example), was informative in nature and easy to understand.
Actually...It was without foundation, unsupported, and completely off topic.
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Go ahead, try it yourself. And perhaps you can deign to provide us a cite to the newest McNeely details you've just claimed?
What, quote the report again so you can ignore it again?
Between the 24/27/34.8" lengths nominated, the latter is the only length that can be shown to be 'almost touching the ground'.
You’ve provided no evidence for this claim.
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Sure, hon.
Bettina is not your “hon” or your “sweetheart”, you pig.
-
Bettina is not your “hon” or your “sweetheart”, you pig.
John,
She's very lucky, indeed, that I call her that, given the fact she threatened to, in so many words, puncture my throat with her stiletto heel.
By the way, why did you post a few months ago that the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film might be men with their trousers tucked into their high, skin-colored boots?
Have you edited or deleted that post yet?
And why did you accuse me of posting those two photos of guys wearing Bermuda shorts-- six really cute models wearing them in fine weather in one, and one poor smuck wearing them in the snow in the other?
What was the point you were trying to make by your doing so?
-- MWT ;)
-
What, quote the report again so you can ignore it again?
You’ve provided no evidence for this claim.
You have every opportunity to take up a tape measure and try to debunk me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pSYgXtD/twentyseven3.jpg)
I've had this since September 12th: It changes nothing. The bag was measured on an estimation by Randle.
Since when have you ever found estimations to be good enough.
::)
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Only because I'm kind of stuck with the "12:15 PM" time you've placed on Rowland's observation of Rifle Man. But I think a better chronology is probably to move up Rowland's 12:15 Rifle Man sighting to right after Givens cigarette trip and just before Williams arrives on 6th floor.
But we must always remember that all "witness times" are approximate times. They're not written in stone. And it's not reasonable to assume that EVERY witness nailed their times right to the minute.
And, as I said previously, it's possible Oswald needed to go back down to the first floor a little later than 12:15 and then return to his Nest. We'll never know for sure.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html
Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
A few more days pass and still nada from any LN to support the notion that the gunman was sighted after the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
I propose we all agree that the evidence submitted so far supports their arrival after Rowland saw the gunman in the SW window of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Particularly as it relates to the original post.
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She's very lucky, indeed, that I call her that, given the fact she threatened to, in so many words, puncture my throat with her stiletto heel.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
By the way, why did you post a few months ago that the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film might be men with their trousers tucked into their high, skin-colored boots?
Why no, Thomas, I didn’t. That was your ridiculous made up BS because you can’t have a discussion like a normal human being.
And why did you accuse me of posting those two photos of guys wearing Bermuda shorts-- six really cute models wearing them in fine weather in one, and one poor smuck wearing them in the snow in the other?
I didn’t accuse you of posting any such photos. Again, that was something you made up because you can’t have a discussion like a normal human being.
What was the point you were trying to make by your doing so?
Those stilettos are sounding nicer and nicer.
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You have every opportunity to take up a tape measure and try to debunk me.
a) you haven’t demonstrated squat
b) there’s no need to “debunk” you. Randle already has.
I've had this since September 12th: It changes nothing. The bag was measured on an estimation by Randle.
“In accordance with Mrs Randle’s observations”.
The bag you allegedly measured was on your estimation of a bag you never even saw. Randle wins.
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Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
A few more days pass and still nada from any LN to support the notion that the gunman was sighted after the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
I propose we all agree that the evidence submitted so far supports their arrival after Rowland saw the gunman in the SW window of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Particularly as it relates to the original post.
Seems the OP has lurked and left the thread again. Still looking for something to justify his better sequence no doubt. I guess the LN team has nothing to rebut with.
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You don't know if he was on the 6th floor
What about the yahoo on the 5th floor who said he heard casings hitting the ground.
Would a person who says he heard casings striking the ground but then say he did not hear a person racing down the stairwell have a case of selective hearing?
Or would an alleged shooter let 3 casings be heard hitting the ground but then race across the 6th floor and down the stairs selectively avoid detection?
That's not a relevant point is it.Three on the 5th floor who were directly under the gunman could hardly NOT hear the shootings etc. . And it hadn't produced the mayhem in the street..that happened a second or so...AFTER the final shot. So the correlation between the 3 on the 5th hearing the shells drop etc and hearing somebody decend the stairs is not a plausible argument.
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That's not a relevant point is it.Three on the 5th floor who were directly under the gunman could hardly NOT hear the shootings etc. . And it hadn't produced the mayhem in the street..that happened a second or so...AFTER the final shot. So the correlation between the 3 on the 5th hearing the shells drop etc and hearing somebody decend the stairs is not a plausible argument.
As much as I don’t wish to derail the thread. The same three apparently did not hear Truly call for the elevator gates to be closed or someone take the west elevator down just after that while they were in the SW corner.
-
Well.....come on LN's
Anyone have any evidence to back David's "better chronology"?
Rowland clearly places the timing of the gunman on the 6th floor at about1 2.15pm.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade taken from Dallas Police Radio logs indicates the The Motorcade got to Turtle Creek at 12.14 and Cedar Springs at 12.16pm.
Now some Harold Norman....
AFFIDAVIT
State of Texas
County of Dallas
City of Dallas
I Harold Norman, wish to make the following statement to Special Agents William Carter and Arthur W. Blake, United States Secret Service.
I am 25 years of age, and I live at 4858 Beulah Street, Dallas, Texas. I do not have a telephone at my residence. I have been employed as an order filler at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas for about three years.
I was acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was employed at this company, but I never did get to know him well. I have spoken to him briefly to say "Hello" or in connection with my work, but I never carried on any conversations with him. He did not mix with the employees and did not appear to want to make friends with me or any of the others. I never saw him at any time other than in the building at work.
On the 22nd of November, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00 A.M. when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.
About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the building overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could hear the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.
/s/Harold Norman
Harold Norman
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of December, 1963.
s/William N. Carter
William N. Carter, Special Agent U.S. Secret Service
A few more days pass and still nada from any LN to support the notion that the gunman was sighted after the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
I propose we all agree that the evidence submitted so far supports their arrival after Rowland saw the gunman in the SW window of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Particularly as it relates to the original post.
I propose we all agree that the evidence submitted so far supports their arrival after Rowland saw the gunman in the SW window of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Particularly as it relates to the original post.
I'll second that motion Colin..... The evidence and testimonies of the witnesses clearly support Rowland's statement that he saw the armed "Security Guard" who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing, behind a sixth floor window at about 12:15. Jarman and Norman arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28....so they passed through the first floor shipping room at about 12:26 / 12:27 ....And Lee Oswald saw them as they walked by.
Lee told Capt Fritz that he was in the Domino Room when the President passed by the TSBD.... And I believe that he was, It's not logical to believe that he could have been in the Domino Room at 12:27 and then been on the sixth floor firing a rifle at 12:30.....In fact the idea that he could be calmly eating his lunch at 12:27
( instead of preparing to murder the President) is totally irrational..... considering the tale that he's plotted for months to murder the President.
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Oswald told Capt Fritz that he was in the Domino Room when the President passed by the TSBD.... And I believe that he was. It's not logical to believe that he could have been in the Domino Room at 12:27 and then been on the sixth floor firing a rifle at 12:30.
.....
12:31, wasn't it?
Maybe he was having his "Prince of Denmark Moment," and decided at the last moment to ... gulp ... BE.
Walk:
-- MWT ;)
PS Besides, he'd already finished eating his cheese sandwich. LOL
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a) you haven’t demonstrated squat
b) there’s no need to “debunk” you. Randle already has.
“In accordance with Mrs Randle’s observations”.
The bag you allegedly measured was on your estimation of a bag you never even saw. Randle wins.
I didn't measure any bag. My measurements deal with the 24/27/34.8" package-length claims; and the winner to the 'Land of Almost Touching the Ground' is the 34.8" length... and by a good deal more than a nose, I might add.
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I didn't measure any bag. My measurements deal with the 24/27/34.8" package-length claims; and the winner to the 'Land of Almost Touching the Ground' is the 34.8" length... and by a good deal more than a nose, I might add.
How could you possibly know what measurement met your arbitrary standard of what "almost touching the ground" means if you didn't measure any bag? How did you know it was 34.8 inches?
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How could you possibly know what measurement met your arbitrary standard of what "almost touching the ground" means if you didn't measure any bag? How did you know it was 34.8 inches?
John,
Couldn't he have held a tape measure or a yardstick instead of makin' hisself a buncha different-length bags?
-- MWT ;)
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How could you possibly know what measurement met your arbitrary standard of what "almost touching the ground" means if you didn't measure any bag? How did you know it was 34.8 inches?
I'm not claiming a bag length. Others have estimated lengths. My tests concern the distant to the ground available for each claimed size... including a broken-down Carcano 34.8" length.
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I'm not claiming a bag length. Others have estimated lengths. My tests concern the distant to the ground available for each claimed size... including a broken-down Carcano 34.8" length.
Randle didn’t say that she saw Oswald carrying a narrow object straight down at his side. She said he carried a bag. And she had McNeely replicate what she saw.
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Dear Kleinschmidt,
Maybe it's because Brian doesn't threaten me with physical violence, and because we actually agree on four or five things.
Ponder that.
-- MWT ;)
Ponder is not my thing. I'm stupid, I work for the CIA
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I'm stupid, I work for the CIA
Peter,
Yeah, well, that makes sense, seein' as how The Agency did dumb-down a lot in 1974, when probable mole William Colby fired James Angleton, and especially after 1968 when it, upon the advice of Bruce "I Was Punked By Igor Kochnov, et al." Solie, not only declared false-defector Nosenko bona fide, but hired him to consult it and to lecture new recruits in the art of counterintelligence.
Were you there when Aldrich Ames "pulled the wool" for nine years (1985 - 1994)?
Ever figure out who code clerk "Jack" was, i.e. the U.S. Army traitor whom Sergei Kondrashev, himself, recruited in 1949, and who unwittingly started the Korean War when his revelations enabled the Soviets to crack the Army's codes and figure out that the U.S. was redeploying its soldiers in Korea to other parts of the world, thereby encouraging Stalin to encourage Kim to invade the south?
"By 1949, South Korean and US military actions had reduced the active number of indigenous communist guerrillas in the South from 5,000 to 1,000. However, Kim Il-sung believed that widespread uprisings had weakened the South Korean military and that a North Korean invasion would be welcomed by much of the South Korean population. Kim began seeking Stalin's support for an invasion in March 1949, traveling to Moscow to attempt to persuade him.[113] Stalin initially did not think the time was right for a war in Korea. PLA forces were still embroiled in the Chinese Civil War, while US forces remained stationed in South Korea.[114] By spring 1950, he believed that the strategic situation had changed: PLA forces under Mao Zedong had secured final victory in China, US forces had withdrawn from Korea, and the Soviets detonated their first nuclear bomb, breaking the US atomic monopoly. As the US had not directly intervened to stop the communist victory in China, Stalin calculated that they would be even less willing to fight in Korea, which had much less strategic significance. The Soviets had also cracked the codes used by the US to communicate with their embassy in Moscow, and reading these dispatches convinced Stalin that Korea did not have the importance to the US that would warrant a nuclear confrontation.[115] Stalin began a more aggressive strategy in Asia based on these developments, including promising economic and military aid to China through the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance, and Mutual Assistance.[116]" -- Wikipedia
"('Jack's' lover,) Nadya was not allowed to leave the Soviet Union due to the KGB's fears of American counterintelligence discovering Jack. Kondrashev's superiors in the KGB did not survive Stalin's purges. The codes Jack divulged to the USSR were used to read American diplomatic and military communications until 1961(*link to Bagley's 2014 PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars). Jack returned to the U.S.; his identity was never discovered as Kondrashev went to great lengths to not disclose information to Bagley that might be used to compromise Jack. (Author's note: Bagley documented these stories in his book, Spymaster: Startling Cold War Revelations of a Soviet KGB Chief.)
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-us-army-sergeant-started-the-korean-war-by-selling-out-to-the-soviets
-- MWT ;)
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Randle didn’t say that she saw Oswald carrying a narrow object straight down at his side.
>>> Nor did I. She said something about a baseball bat, though. That narrows down the options, especially since she claimed the bag as to be 'almost touching the ground'
She said he carried a bag
>>> Which she estimated as 27" long. Cool.
And she had McNeely replicate what she saw
>>> She saw a bag that 'almost touched the ground'. Did the Randle/McNeely bag almost touch the ground?
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Yeah, well, that makes sense, seein' as how The Agency did dumb-down a lot in 1974, when probable mole William Colby fired James Angleton, and especially after 1968 when it, upon the advice of Bruce "I Was Punked By Igor Kochnov, et al." Solie, not only declared false-defector Nosenko bona fide, but hired him to consult it and to lecture new recruits in the art of counterintelligence.
Were you there when Aldrich Ames "pulled the wool" for nine years (1985 - 1994)?
Ever figure out who code clerk "Jack" was, i.e. the U.S. Army traitor whom Sergei Kondrashev, himself, recruited in 1949, and who unwittingly started the Korean War when he informed his Ruskie handler that the U.S. was redeploying its soldiers in Korea to other parts of the world, thereby encouraging Stalin to encourage Kim to invade the south?
By 1949, South Korean and US military actions had reduced the active number of indigenous communist guerrillas in the South from 5,000 to 1,000. However, Kim Il-sung believed that widespread uprisings had weakened the South Korean military and that a North Korean invasion would be welcomed by much of the South Korean population. Kim began seeking Stalin's support for an invasion in March 1949, traveling to Moscow to attempt to persuade him.[113]
"Stalin initially (i.e., in 1949) did not think the time was right for a war in Korea. PLA forces were still embroiled in the Chinese Civil War, while US forces remained stationed in South Korea.[114] By spring 1950, he believed that the strategic situation had changed: PLA forces under Mao Zedong had secured final victory in China, US forces had withdrawn from Korea, and the Soviets detonated their first nuclear bomb, breaking the US atomic monopoly. As the US had not directly intervened to stop the communist victory in China, Stalin calculated that they would be even less willing to fight in Korea, which had much less strategic significance. The Soviets had also cracked the codes used by the US to communicate with their embassy in Moscow, and reading these dispatches convinced Stalin that Korea did not have the importance to the US that would warrant a nuclear confrontation.[115] Stalin began a more aggressive strategy in Asia based on these developments, including promising economic and military aid to China through the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance, and Mutual Assistance.[116]" -- Wikipedia
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-us-army-sergeant-started-the-korean-war-by-selling-out-to-the-soviets
-- MWT ;)
Angelton was dosed and needed to take a break
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Ponder is not my thing. I'm stupid, I work for the CIA
Half right. :D :D :D
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Half right. :D :D :D
Yeah, the FBI (whom triple-agent Aleksey Kulak -- "Fedora" -- fooled for fifteen years and had a virtual direct line to POTUS during same) probably has mental requirements that are way too high for both of you.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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Yeah, the FBI (whom triple-agent Aleksey Kulak -- "Fedora" -- fooled for fifteen years and had a virtual direct line to POTUS during same) probably has mental requirements that are way too high for both of you.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
Yeah, he's not the only one with "mental requirements". Had you'rs recently?
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Yeah, he's not the only one with "mental requirements". Had you'rs recently?
Denis,
Any thoughts on who came first, Roland's gunman on 6th or Jarman and Norman on 5th?
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Yeah, he's not the only one with "mental requirements". Had you'rs recently?
"you'rs" ?
LOL!
-- MWT :D
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Denis,
Any thoughts on who came first, Roland's gunman on 6th or Jarman and Norman on 5th?
Janitor holdin' a broom at port arms?
-- MWT ;)
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Janitor holdin' a broom at port arms?
-- MWT ;)
Ah, part of the Sweep-ret Service after all....eh?
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Ah, part of the Sweep-ret Service after all....eh?
When they told him he'd be part of the evil, evil, evil cover up, he thought they said sweep the floor up.
Big Jack was always kinda slow on the up-take.
-- MWT ;)
PS Say, they weren't using a "bar" up there to help 'em lift up the old sheets of plywood, were they?
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Randle didn’t say that she saw Oswald carrying a narrow object straight down at his side.
>>> Nor did I.
That’s what you claimed to carry in this “test” you supposedly did.
She said something about a baseball bat, though.
No she didn’t.
>>> She saw a bag that 'almost touched the ground'. Did the Randle/McNeely bag almost touch the ground?
What part of “the desired length” and “in accordance with Mrs Randle’s observations” are you having trouble with?
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That’s what you claimed to carry in this “test” you supposedly did.
>>> The device is used to establish the 24/27/34.8" lengths in relation to the ground. I don't claim otherwise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pTTpPnb/casual-baseball-bat-grip.png)
No she didn’t.
>>> McNeely acted in accordance with her observations. Feel free to provide a transcript of the Randle/McNeely tête-à-tête. Images would be helpful.
What part of “the desired length” and “in accordance with Mrs Randle’s observations” are you having trouble with?
>>> LOL. The length was certainly 'desired' by somebody all right ;). And what part of 'in accordance with Randle's observations' are you having trouble with? NARA quote: "Then, in accordance with Mrs. Randle's observations, Special Agent McNeely grasped the top of this sack with his hand, much like a right handed batter would pick up a baseball bat when approaching the plate".
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>>> The device is used to establish the 24/27/34.8" lengths in relation to the ground. I don't claim otherwise.
What's particularly amusing is that the photo you keep trotting out doesn't even show how close the object is to the ground. Nor any measurement.
Why do you continue to think that your alleged experiment is more conclusive than Randle's own experiment?
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What's particularly amusing is that the photo you keep trotting out doesn't even show how close the object is to the ground. Nor any measurement.
Why do you continue to think that your alleged experiment is more conclusive than Randle's own experiment?
Point out where I claimed that the photo that I keep trotting out is meant to show anything more than my grip. What I think know is that of the 24/27/34.8" lengths, the latter is the one that comes closest to the ground while employing said grip.
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Point out where I claimed that the photo that I keep trotting out is meant to show anything more than my grip. What I know is that of the 24/27/34.8" lengths, the latter is the one that comes closest to the ground while employing said grip.
As I've said previously...don't tell us, Chappers, show us.
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As I've said previously...don't tell us, Chappers, show us.
As I've said previously, RayBan, try it yourself
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Chapman sure is working hard to not show what he is claiming.
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Chapman sure is working hard to not show what he is claiming.
Iacoletti is working hard at not showing precisely how McNeely was carrying the 27" (Randle-estimated) bag in order to have it almost touch the ground.
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Iacoletti is working hard at not showing precisely how McNeely was carrying the 27" (Randle-estimated) bag in order to have it almost touch the ground.
Why is it that everybody else but you has to show stuff?
How McNeely was carrying the 27" bag was good enough for Randle. Why isn't it good enough for you?
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Why is it that everybody else but you has to show stuff?
How McNeely was carrying the 27" bag was good enough for Randle. Why isn't it good enough for you?
When have you ever considered anything coming from the WC as being 'good enough'?
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When have you ever considered anything coming from the WC as being 'good enough'?
Coming from Bill Chapman is even worse.
Probably.
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David,
The very first account of Oswald's Domino Room alibi has him eating lunch in the domino room on the first floor at noon or a few minutes before. Then he went up to the second floor and bought a Coke from the vending machine.The vending machine was in the lunch room. After that, he went downstairs and was on the first floor when Kennedy went by. This original first account has him on the first floor, then second, and then back to the first.
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Iacoletti is working hard at not showing precisely how McNeely was carrying the 27" (Randle-estimated) bag in order to have it almost touch the ground.
Bill,
Yeah, he's good at that sort of thing.
I mean, my God, he almost had me convinced that Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons on the Pergola Patio in Towner were really three men wearing Bermuda shorts, and that one of them ("Sharecropper Simmons") was holding a "Baby Boy Blue"-colored helium-filled balloon that, due to static electricity or some-such thing, had a strong affinity for the poor dude's head.
-- MWT ;)
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I don’t know I could have convinced you of any of that since you invented it and dishonestly attributed it to me.
If you spent anywhere near the amount of energy on studying real evidence as you do making up ridiculous crap and stepping on every thread with your stupid irrelevant tangents, you might actually get someone to take you seriously.
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I don’t know I could have convinced you of any of that since you invented it and dishonestly attributed it to me.
If you spent anywhere near the amount of energy on studying real evidence as you do making up ridiculous crap and stepping on every thread with your stupid irrelevant tangents, you might actually get someone to take you seriously.
John
Please tell us why you posted those two photos of guys wearing Bermuda shorts on a thread dealing with not only the identities of three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film, but their gender.
What point were you trying to make by doing that?
A photo of six really, really cute male models wearing them in good weather, and another one of a schmuck wearing them in the snow, wasn't it?
Are you claiming that it was I who posted them?
Holy Hatch Habaneros, are you really that desperate??
-- MWT ;)
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...and there goes the Graves gallop again.
Are you saying that you have stopped beating your wife?
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...and there goes the Graves gallop again.
Are you saying that you have stopped beating your wife?
John,
Of course not.
Why would I say that, especially given the fact that I'm single, again?
-- MWT Walk:
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Why would I say that, especially given the fact that I'm single, again?
Not for long I'm sure, with your winning personality.
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Not for long I'm sure, with your winning personality.
John,
It's interesting that you falsely accuse me of having falsely accused you of posting those two photos of Bermuda shorts-wearing guys.
Is your memory really that bad, or are you, as I suspect, a congenital ... prevaricator?
-- MWT ;)
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I don’t know I could have convinced you of any of that since you invented it and dishonestly attributed it to me.
If you spent anywhere near the amount of energy on studying real evidence as you do making up ridiculous crap and stepping on every thread with your stupid irrelevant tangents, you might actually get someone to take you seriously.
Did you see Mr I's post Tommy?
If you spent anywhere near the amount of energy on studying real evidence as you do making up ridiculous crap and stepping on every thread with your stupid irrelevant tangents, you might actually get someone to take you seriously.
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It's interesting that you falsely accuse me of having falsely accused you of posting those two photos of Bermuda shorts-wearing guys.
That's not even true. You just can't help yourself, can you?
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That's not even true. You just can't help yourself, can you?
John,
Please set me straight --
Was it, or was it not, you who posted those two photos of guys wearing Bermuda shorts?
-- MWT ;)
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As we drift further and further from the Domino Room.... :-\
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Yeah, Graves, let it go, FFS.
You seem to be unnaturally obsessed with men's shorts.
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As we drift further and further from the Domino Room.... :-\
As we drift further and further from the Domino Room....
Yes.... I believe that's the intent.....
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As we drift further and further from the Domino Room....
Yes.... I believe that's the intent.....
Still nothing offered in support of David's (WR implied) "better sequence". Better in what sense? Not accuracy unless something meaningful can be produced it seems. David do you want a "better" understanding of events or an accurate one? Aren't they the same?
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Still nothing offered in support of David's (WR implied) "better sequence". Better in what sense? Not accuracy unless something meaningful can be produced it seems. David do you want a "better" understanding of events or an accurate one? Aren't they the same?
I believe Von P knows that Lee had a rock solid alibi.... ( The FACT that he was in the first floor, Domino Room. just a couple of minutes before the shooting. makes it highly unlikely that he could have been behind the sixth floor window at 12:30 )
But Von P is struggling with that fact.... I don't blame him.... Because that fact destroys his fairy tale world....
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I believe Von P knows that Lee had a rock solid alibi.... ( The FACT that he was in the first floor, Domino Room. just a couple of minutes before the shooting. makes it highly unlikely that he could have been behind the sixth floor window at 12:30 )
But Von P is struggling with that fact.... I don't blame him.... Because that fact destroys his fairy tale world....
Walter,
I think we should declare Colin "The Winner," don't you?
-- MWT ;)
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Walter,
I think we should declare Colin "The Winner," don't you?
-- MWT ;)
Have I been patient enough Tommy? I would rather reality to be declared the winner. Perhaps then deal with all that follows from the acceptance of what the evidence tells us.
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Walter,
I think we should declare Colin "The Winner," don't you?
-- MWT ;)
Maybe we just should call you the loser.....
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Maybe we just should call you the loser.....
How about "Underdog"?
And you?
You could be "Weasel"!
-- MWT Walk:
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Now that we can agree the balance of evidence puts the arrival of Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor after Rowland's gunman sighting at 12.15pm let's explore an event that, in my view, never happened. Given's cigarette trip in which he claimed to have seen Oswald on the 6th floor after the "elevator race".
I would start with this.....as an entre....
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?
Mr. GIVENS. Next?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor.
I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.
For the true believers to counter with "something".
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As I recall Sylvia Meagher had Givens covered decades ago but you may be headed somewhere else...
Hello Otto,
I think it's time that both sides accepted that "Given's story" should be rejected as a total fabrication. It should be removed from the sequence of events unless some supporting evidence can be produced.
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As I recall Sylvia Meagher had Givens covered decades ago but you may be headed somewhere else...
Sylvia Meagher -- LOL
JohnM
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When have you ever considered anything coming from the WC as being 'good enough'?
Back to, I know you are but what am I -type responses.
Less than creative, Bill.
You don't have much to offer.
In fact, you are the one supporting a claim.
It looks like you have no reason to be supporting the claim or at least you are reluctant to do so.
Why support what you can't seem to back up or is it all of sudden a secret?
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Sylvia Meagher -- LOL
JohnM
Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?
I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued." --
Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"-LMAO
Most of the inconsistencies are remarkably consistent
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Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?
I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued." --
Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"-LMAO
Most of the inconsistencies are remarkably consistent
Colin,
Speaking of fried chicken, I noticed what looked like greasy spots on the long bag that was discovered in the Sniper's Nest.
In the photo showing the homicide officers(?) displaying the long bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle outside the TSBD.
But then again, maybe it was just the greasy cheese sammich.
-- MWT ;)
PS "Remarkably consistent" in what way, Colin?
Do they all point to the evil, evil, evil CIA's and the Deep State's doing the deed?
Thanks in advance.
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the long bag that was discovered in the Sniper's Nest -- LOL
Maybe those evil, evil cops had greasy fingers.
Walk:
-
Grease gun?
Good one!
-
How about "Underdog"?
And you?
You could be "Weasel"!
-- MWT Walk:
I wasn't in the conversation and I am really not interested in the opinion of a loser.
If Colin wins, by consequence, you lose, making you the loser. It's really not so hard to understand.
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I wasn't in the conversation and I am really not interested in the opinion of a loser.
If Colin wins, by consequence, you lose, making you the loser. It's really not so hard to understand.
It's a good song, actually.
"I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines ..."
-- MWT ;)
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Colin,
Speaking of fried chicken, I noticed what looked like greasy spots on the long bag that was discovered in the Sniper's Nest.
In the photo showing the homicide officers(?) displaying the long bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle outside the TSBD.
But then again, maybe it was just the greasy cheese sammich.
-- MWT ;)
PS "Remarkably consistent" in what way, Colin?
Do they all point to the evil, evil, evil CIA's and the Deep State's doing the deed?
Thanks in advance.
Maybe a stain from spilled coffee.....that’s where it was made apparently.
Remarkably consistent with a narrative that is not what is suggested in the WR. Not pointing to a massive conspiracy per se Tommy but something different than the "better sequence".
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As for Givens:
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/givens-money.png)
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Oswald didn’t even finish high school.
True, but fwiw, his command of syntax, grammar and vocabulary was better than yours.
All of the “uneducated” workers said Oswald had lunch in the domino room.
Did they all say he ate lunch in the Domino Room every day?
Did any of them say he ate lunch in the Domino Room every day?
Did any of them say he'd occasionally come into the Domino Room and just kinda "hang out" for a few minutes?
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True, but fwiw, his command of syntax, grammar and vocabulary was better than yours.
Who “axed” for your ignorant opinion?
-
Who “axed” for your ignorant opinion?
John,
Yes, I confess to being very ignorant about computers, and "IT," and that sort of thing.
How about you?
What are you ignorant about (other than men's late-Fall clothing styles in conservative 1963 Dallas)?
KGB's Department 14's (aka Department D) of the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB) "strategic deception counterintelligence operation" shennagins?
Anatoliy Golitsyn's late-1961 revelation to the CIA that the Kremlin was planning to assassinate a (unknown to him) Western political leader?
How about the fact that the security guard at the Soviet embassy (who volunteered to an Oswald impersonator the made-radioactive-by-the-KGB name "Kostikov" over a sure-to-be-tapped -by-the-CIA embassy phone line on Tuesday, October 2, 1963) was a triple-agent whom CIA thought was working for it, but who, in reality, was still loyal to the Kremlin?
You got your "ca-ca" together on that?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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Oswald didn’t even finish high school.
What's that supposed to indicate.... If that's a sneaky way of saying the Lee was stupid.....I'd remind you that many intelligent and wealthy men did not graduate from high school....
Lee had an IQ of 135...(well above average) ...and the Marines sent him to training schools (electronics) that required an above average IQ.....
And not only that, but his friend, bon vivant and probable long-term KGB "illegal," George DeMohrenschildt, said that he was "one sharp cookie," or words to that effect.
-- MWT ;)
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It's a good song, actually.
"I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines ..."
-- MWT ;)
No offense but Robert Hunter & Jerry would say you were the Loser. Sorry, it's just a fact. You understand, right?
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No offense but Robert Hunter & Jerry would say you were the Loser. Sorry, it's just a fact. You understand, right?
Peter,
Will you be my uncle?
Will you grab the gold?
-- MWT ???
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Givens originally placed Oswald in the domino room about 20 minutes after the "elevator race".
(https://i.ibb.co/XFGXy25/5335-DCED-A523-49-E6-984-E-0837-DB6-C68-D5.jpg)
This would be about 12.10 to 12.15pm. Was it just before Givens met with Jarman and Norman near the front entrance?
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Givens originally placed Oswald in the domino room about 20 minutes after the "elevator race".
(https://i.ibb.co/XFGXy25/5335-DCED-A523-49-E6-984-E-0837-DB6-C68-D5.jpg)
This would be about 12.10 to 12.15pm. Was it just before Givens met with Jarman and Norman near the front entrance?
"He said he saw this same person's picture on television on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, who was supposed to have been the person being investigated for the shooting of the President."
A photo of Lee Oswald was televised shortly after the shooting.....Does anybody know at what time the photo of Lee was first televised?
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Finally found this in an oral history with Gary Mack......
Gary: When did you first learn that President Kennedy was coming to town? And then the follow-up, of course, would be when did you first realize that he was going to come right by your building?
Buell: (0:40:15) Well, I think it was a day or two before… just hearing people talk. They said that President Kennedy was going to be coming to Dallas, but that didn’t…anything didn’t register on me about that because presidents, say, visit cities in America and cities in other countries. That’s a common… a pretty common thing for them. For one reason or another, they go there for business, whether it’s political, whether campaigning, or they’re trying to be a negotiator as a… in a peace-type situation, or whatever. A president of the United States traveling to different points in the world is very common, so him coming to Dallas, no. That didn’t mean anything particular to me.
Gary: How about some of your coworkers? Was…?
Buell: Well, the morning, Friday, November the 22nd, it was, I think, around break time, they found out that… that the presidential parade was going to be coming by the Texas School Book Depository, Houston and Elm Street. And a lot of the people was very excited about that. They says, “Gosh,” says, “we got a chance to see the president.” And as they were talking, then they realized that he may come by before lunch break or after lunch break, and there’s a possibility we wouldn’t get a chance to see the parade. So, someone had gone to Mr. Shelley and asked, “Are we going to get to see the presidential parade?” And there was a… I guess he checked with Mr. Truly, and Mr. Truly checked with his bosses who were up in… on the second floor. And they come back with the reply that, yes, we would stop and everyone could see the presidential parade. And so, we continued to work, and then at a certain time, we stopped and everyone got ready to watch the parade.
Now the "someone" becomes Frazier asking Shelley.....as I had originally remembered. Check the 15 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/i5OnATeSE
For some reason I can't link the video....you can find the interview of Frazier with Tom Meros on YouTube under the title "Buell Western Frazier drove Lee Harvey Oswald to work on November 22nd 1963”
And at the 28 minute mark here....
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I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that *even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot. Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.)
verified FACT....Who verified this fact? This is like saying that Oswald woke up that morning KNOWING that that the motorcade would be passing under his building at precisely 12:30...therefore--he could dilly-dally and even eat his lunch until 12:28, when he could then arrive at his perch and start shooting ::) theorizing...probably
We are free to THEORIZE and could have and MAYBE --just as long as the Oswald did it conclusion is reached :-\
*even if ..Oswald was sitting in the restroom at 12:25 he still got up to floor #Six just in time!
Enough is enough and too much stinks.
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verified FACT....Who verified this fact? This is like saying that Oswald woke up that morning KNOWING that that the motorcade would be passing under his building at precisely 12:30...therefore--he could dilly-dally and even eat his lunch until 12:28, when he could then arrive at his perch and start shooting ::) We are free to THEORIZE and could have and MAYBE --just as long as the Oswald did it conclusion is reached :-\
*even if ..Oswald was sitting in the restroom at 12:25 he still got up to floor #Six just in time!
Enough is enough and too much stinks.
If Lee was in the domino room at 12:27 when Junior Jarman and Harold Norman passed by as he said he was, and he saw them, as he said he did, then he would have been two minutes late to get to the imaginary stage prop, "Sniper's Nest". JFK was scheduled to arrive at the Trade Mart at 12:30, and that would have placed the motorcade at the TSBD at about 12:25. .....
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If Lee was in the domino room at 12:27 when Junior Jarman and Harold Norman passed by as he said he was, and he saw them, as he said he did, then he would have been two minutes late to get to the imaginary stage prop, "Sniper's Nest". JFK was scheduled to arrive at the Trade Mart at 12:30, and that would have placed the motorcade at the TSBD at about 12:25. .....
Actually, the motorcade was running late by some 15 minutes. It should have passed by the TSBD at 12.15
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Walter,
Oswald, being a very honest person, must have been telling the truth.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
Lee was merely relating events that he recalled..... Fritz claimed that he asked Lee where he was at the time the President was shot.
I believe that Fritz was lying.... He actually asked Lee where he was when the president passed by the TSBD. ( as it says in his scribbled notes) No trained detective would reveal WHY a suspect was being interviewed by asking a suspect where he was when the murder occurred.
Fritz asked Lee where he was when the president passed by....and Lee replied that he was in the Domino Room eating his lunch. When Fritz asked him if he could verify his whereabouts he recalled that he saw a couple of fellow employees ( Jarman & Norman) pass by the room while he was eating his lunch.
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At The Education Forum, Lance Payette has made several excellent points regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's so-called "Domino Room Alibi". If you'd like to take a gander, here's the link.... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26009-who-was-mrs-robert-reid/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-406382
Excellent points ...oh brother :-\
I thought we couldn't link up to that forum but apparently we can.
This Lance Payette fellow seems to consider himself quite the master of the topic... We know Oswald was an incredible, bald-faced l-i-a-r in almost every conceivable situation
"We know"--All Payette knew, is what he read in the fairy tale Warren Report just like all the other Oswalddidits :-\
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Lee was merely relating events that he recalled..... Fritz claimed that he asked Lee where he was at the time the President was shot.
I believe that Fritz was lying.... He actually asked Lee where he was when the president passed by the TSBD. ( as it says in his scribbled notes) No trained detective would reveal WHY a suspect was being interviewed by asking a suspect where he was when the murder occurred.
Fritz asked Lee where he was when the president passed by....and Lee replied that he was in the Domino Room eating his lunch. When Fritz asked him if he could verify his whereabouts he recalled that he saw a couple of fellow employees ( Jarman & Norman) pass by the room while he was eating his lunch.
"Walt",
That's right!
Oswald, like Scott Peterson, had no reason to lie!
-- MWT ;)
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"Walt",
That's right!
Oswald, like Scott Peterson, had no reason to lie!
-- MWT ;)
Get your head out, and wipe your eyes, so you can see....
They supposedly had arrested Lee as a suspect in the Tippit murder..... So why didn't they ask a single question about that event?
Fritz says that he asked Lee Where he was when the president was shot..... Do you believe that??
Lee Oswald was a trained intel agent.... Spies lie..... That's what they are trained to do. Dulles himself said that he would expect a agent to lie even in court under oath...So yes, Lee probably lied about some things ( like Mexico City)
And there's absolutely NO DOUBT that the authorities ( DPD, FBI, and WC) lied about many things and created false evidence to frame the suspect...So I ask you ...In your opinion which is more despicable ....A suspect lying...Or the authorities lying....
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Get your head out, and wipe your eyes, so you can see....
They supposedly had arrested Lee as a suspect in the Tippit murder..... So why didn't they ask a single question about that event?
Fritz says that he asked Lee Where he was when the president was shot..... Do you believe that??
Lee Oswald was a trained intel agent.... Spies lie..... That's what they are trained to do. Dulles himself said that he would expect a agent to lie even in court under oath...So yes, Lee probably lied about some things ( like Mexico City)
And there's absolutely NO DOUBT that the authorities ( DPD, FBI, and WC) lied about many things and created false evidence to frame the suspect...So I ask you ...In your opinion which is more despicable ....A suspect lying...Or the authorities lying....
"Walt",
How do you know these things?
Did Mark "Paid by the KGB to Debunk the Warren Report" Lane, or Oliver Stone, or Roger Stone, or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum, or probable long-term KGB "illegal" George DeMohrenschildt, or Vladimir Putin, himself, tell you?
-- MWT ;)
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"Walt",
How do you know these things?
Did Mark "Paid by the KGB to Debunk the Warren Report" Lane, or Oliver Stone, or Roger Stone, or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum, or probable long-term KGB "illegal" George DeMohrenschildt, or Vladimir Putin, himself, tell you?
-- MWT ;)
How do you know these things?
I've never suffered from cranial rectalitus .....( as you obviously do) ...I can see through smoke screens, and discern the truth, unhampered by political bias.
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How do you know these things?
I've never suffered from cranial rectalitus .....( as you obviously do) ...I can see through smoke screens, and discern the truth, unhampered by political bias.
"Walt",
No need to "fact check"?
Got your own built-in "Bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns Meter" (like so many gullible Trump supporters claim to have), do you?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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Get your head out, and wipe your eyes, so you can see....
They supposedly had arrested Lee as a suspect in the Tippit murder..... So why didn't they ask a single question about that event?
Fritz says that he asked Lee Where he was when the president was shot..... Do you believe that??
Lee Oswald was a trained intel agent.... Spies lie..... That's what they are trained to do. Dulles himself said that he would expect a agent to lie even in court under oath...So yes, Lee probably lied about some things ( like Mexico City)
And there's absolutely NO DOUBT that the authorities ( DPD, FBI, and WC) lied about many things and created false evidence to frame the suspect...So I ask you ...In your opinion which is more despicable ....A suspect lying...Or the authorities lying....
They supposedly had arrested Lee as a suspect in the Tippit murder..... So why didn't they ask a single question about that event?
That is indeed an interesting question. Thumb1:
From the moment Oswald was brought into the station he was linked to the Kennedy murder and hardly any attention was paid to the Tippit murder for which he was arrested. Hmmm... an other conundrum added to the list.
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"Walt",
How do you know these things?
Did Mark "Paid by the KGB to Debunk the Warren Report" Lane, or Oliver Stone, or Roger Stone, or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum, or probable long-term KGB "illegal" George DeMohrenschildt, or Vladimir Putin, himself, tell you?
-- MWT ;)
You should love the KGB for one important reason, they don't talk as much as you do.
That will give you something to think about. I wonder how long it will be until you talk about it
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You should love the KGB for one important reason, they don't talk as much as you do.
That will give you something to think about. I wonder how long it will be until you talk about it
Talk about what, Kleinschmidt?
About how ignorant you are?
That could take weeks, comrade.
-- MWT ;)
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Pat Speer went into great detail on this. He has found plenty of evidence to the contrary. No one here (crazy CTers and of course the Nutters) will of course bother reading the link below but if you really want to learn how it was virtually impossible for Oswald to have done what he was accused of doing in that very tight time frame and with so many people around, then read this very carefully.
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22
Lance Payette seems like a nice guy. I gave him some advice when he traveled to DC a while back on a nice unknown site to see down there (the FDR memorial) and he said he enjoyed it afterward. But as for this case, Lance is nothing if not a walking contradiction. He claims to be a genius attorney who believes in no conspiracy anywhere, no UFOs (rightfully so) but also believes there is some higher up fairy out there controlling the universe with nothing more to believe in than "faith."
The problem with Lance is that for all of his so-called lawyerly prowess, he simply cannot shake it that things were a little too perfect, too pat, on 11/22. Any lawyer worth their salt - putting all of the other batspombleprofglidnoctobuns craziness of this case aside - would have found plenty of oddities in this case that go beyond mere coincidence.
Do you agree 100% with Speer?
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Well she first said she saw him near the front door on the first floor. This is the only way Oswald could have been anywhere near Junior and Norman. He couldn't have seen them if he was in the 2nd floor lunch room. So you need to make up your mind, was Arnold telling the truth the first time or the second time. That's not a great question to have to ask of someones credibility you're relying on, when there is more circumstantial evidence Oswald was on the 6th floor pulling the trigger.
Well she first said she saw him near the front door on the first floor.
Actually, you don't know what she really said. All you've got to go on are two FBI reports which Arnold never read or signed.
If I remember correctly, Oswald told his interrogators that he ate his lunch in the Domino room, on the first floor, and then went upstairs to get a soda in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Junior and Norman passed through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) anywhere between 12.20 and 12.25 and Carolyn Arnold, according to one FBI report saw Oswald at around 12.25 pm at the second floor lunchroom. There seems to be no discrepancy there.
The problem with all this is of course that Oswald never had an opportunity to show the investigators in an reenactment where he was exactly and what he saw there, so that it could be matched up and verified with what witnesses like Junior, Norman and Arnold were saying. As it stands all we have are conflicting reports from the interrogators which, because of the contradictions, are being dismissed as Oswald's lies, when in fact those contradictions could simply have been the result of a misunderstanding or a consequence of the interrogators not knowing the lay out of the TSBD. Had the interrogators been familiar with that lay out they would have known that you can't walk through the Domino room as it only has one entrance. All we are left with are some notes from the interrogators with nobody taking the trouble to ask follow up questions for clarification. It is by no means a perfect record!
when there is more circumstantial evidence Oswald was on the 6th floor pulling the trigger.
What circumstantial evidence, except for wishful thinking, is there that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30?
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Well she first said she saw him near the front door on the first floor.
Actually, you don't know what she really said. All you've got to go on are two FBI reports which Arnold never read or signed.
If I remember correctly, Oswald told his interrogators that he ate his lunch in the Domino room, on the first floor, and then went upstairs to get a soda in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Junior and Norman passed through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) anywhere between 12.20 and 12.25 and Carolyn Arnold, according to one FBI report saw Oswald at around 12.25 pm at the second floor lunchroom. There seems to be no discrepancy there.
when there is more circumstantial evidence Oswald was on the 6th floor pulling the trigger.
What circumstantial evidence, except for wishful thinking, is there that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30?
I concur with Martin's post, so I won't repeat it, but I would like to hear your answer to the question......
What circumstantial evidence, except for wishful thinking, is there that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30?
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I concur with Martin's post, so I won't repeat it, but I would like to hear your answer to the question......
What circumstantial evidence, except for wishful thinking, is there that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12.30?
His rifle was there. That is the circumstantial evidence. It suggests, though not proves, Oswald was the assassin.
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His rifle was there. That is the circumstantial evidence. It suggests, though not proves, Oswald was the assassin.
His rifle was there. That is the circumstantial evidence. It suggests, though not proves, Oswald was the assassin.
There is strong evidence that the carcano wasn't even fired that day.....
A) The FBI reported that the barrel was dirty and corroded (rust) ..... If the rifle had had three rounds fired through the barrel the barrel would have been clean and no rust., Because the projectiles would have blown the dirt out of the barrel.
B) Not a single person reported the smell of burned gun powder. The rifle would still have been emitting an odor only one hour after the shooting.....Particularly when Fritz opened the bolt and ejected the live round. That live round would have acted as a cork and sealed the breech so the smell would have been there if the rifle had been fired.... ( Which raises the point .... The sniff test is nearly reflex with a seasoned detective ....It is a quick way to know if a gun has been fired recently, and yet neither Fritz nor Day (nor anybody else) used their heads or noses....now isn't that strange. If there had been a odor it would have reminded them to stick their noses down to the rifle's action.
C) the rifle was found laying ON THE FLOOR ( Not jammed between boxes) about 3 feet from the aisle that Lee allegedly dashed through as he entered the stairway.
The rifle was three feet away and three feet down at the bottom of a "cave " that was created by stacked boxes ....No 5'9" man could have reached across that span and placed the rifle ON THE FLOOR at the bottom of the cave. That rifle had to have been hidden there BEFORE the shooting because there simply was NOT enough time after the shooting . (Baker and Truly were at the site just a couple of minutes after the shots, and they saw nobody )
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His rifle was there. That is the circumstantial evidence. It suggests, though not proves, Oswald was the assassin.
Here we go again. Another conclusion based on an assumption.
His rifle? Really? And what exactly is the proof that the MC rifle found at the TSBD is actually "his rifle"?
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Well she first said she saw him near the front door on the first floor.
Actually, you don't know what she really said. All you've got to go on are two FBI reports which Arnold never read or signed.
If I remember correctly, Oswald told his interrogators that he ate his lunch in the Domino room, on the first floor, and then went upstairs to get a soda in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Junior and Norman passed through the shipping area (visible from the Domino room) anywhere between 12.20 and 12.25 and Carolyn Arnold, according to one FBI report saw Oswald at around 12.25 pm at the second floor lunchroom. There seems to be no discrepancy there.
The problem with all this is of course that Oswald never had an opportunity to show the investigators in an reenactment where he was exactly and what he saw there, so that it could be matched up and verified with what witnesses like Junior, Norman and Arnold were saying. As it stands all we have are conflicting reports from the interrogators which, because of the contradictions, are being dismissed as Oswald's lies, when in fact those contradictions could simply have been the result of a misunderstanding or a consequence of the interrogators not knowing the lay out of the TSBD. Had the interrogators been familiar with that lay out they would have known that you can't walk through the Domino room as it only has one entrance. All we are left with are some notes from the interrogators with nobody taking the trouble to ask follow up questions for clarification. It is by no means a perfect record!
I find it difficult to believe trained FBI agents would make such a blunder.
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I find it difficult to believe trained FBI agents would make such a blunder.
I find it difficult to believe trained FBI agents would make such a blunder.
BINGO!!..... THAT is the very basic question... Since the murder of President Kennedy is still hotly debated after over 50 years, and it remains unsolved in the majority of Americans minds. One must ask himself ....Either the FBI was so inept that they couldn't solve the case....or as you wrote above ( I find it difficult to believe trained FBI agents would make such a blunder.) or they were not trying to solve the case and were in fact covering up the facts.
Was the FBI a bunch of buffoons who couldn't follow the track of a train ?? ...... I don't think so.......
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I find it difficult to believe trained FBI agents would make such a blunder.
I'm not sure what blunder you refer to.
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I'm not sure what blunder you refer to.
That the FBI misinterpreted what Carolyn Arnold said about catching a fleeting glimpse of Oswald inside the front door.
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That the FBI misinterpreted what Carolyn Arnold said about catching a fleeting glimpse of Oswald inside the front door.
Well, they clearly made that blunder since the two reports give different times for when it happened as well.
The first one said 12.25... the second one said 12.15
Even if Arnold gave both times herself, the FBI failed to verify which was the correct one. So, yes, they did blunder.
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I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.
Somewhere in thread past I asked how Oswald could have possibly known that the motorcade was going to pass by his building at exactly 12:30 PM sharp? It is therefore not at all a "verified fact" but rather a wild conjecture attributing to Oswald not only the ability to foresee into the future...but the capability to bound up to the 6th floor just in time and assume the position at the window to perform his miraculous shooting aptitude.
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Somewhere in thread past I asked how Oswald could have possibly known that the motorcade was going to pass by his building at exactly 12:30 PM sharp? It is therefore not at all a "verified fact" but rather a wild conjecture attributing to Oswald not only the ability to foresee into the future...but the capability to bound up to the 6th floor just in time and assume the position at the window to perform his miraculous shooting aptitude.
It is therefore not at all a "verified fact" but rather a wild conjecture attributing to Oswald not only the ability to foresee into the future...but the capability to bound up to the 6th floor just in time and assume the position at the window to perform his miraculous shooting aptitude.
What a doubting Thomas you are..... Don't you know that LBJ's Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee of honorable and venerated men studied the case carefully and determined that Lee Harvey Oswald possessed supernatural powers, which enabled him to perform those feats.