I reply: Check out the video “JFK – The Smoking Gun” by Colin McLaren. In it he describes how Howard Donahue, a ballistic expert, determined that the shot came accidentally from Hickey. The smoke from the gun carried back over the motorcade and many people in the following cars smelled gun smoke. The book "Mortal Error" by Bonar Menninger outlines Donahue's investigative work.
McLaren: “Ten witnesses smelled gun smoke at street level at the time of the shooting”. The wind was 16 mph from the south west. The wind was blowing at 15 mph towards the TSBD. This wind direction would have carried gun smoke from the grassy knoll towards the TSBD also, away from the motorcade. If I understand this correctly, the wind would have been going directly at and in line with the motorcade from the front.
McLaren mentioned that Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents.
I believe that any cover up by the feds wasn’t to shield the assassins; it was to cover up what Hickey had done.
I reply: Check out the video “JFK – The Smoking Gun” by Colin McLaren. In it he describes how Howard Donahue, a ballistic expert, determined that the shot came accidentally from Hickey. The smoke from the gun carried back over the motorcade and many people in the following cars smelled gun smoke. The book "Mortal Error" by Bonar Menninger outlines Donahue's investigative work.
McLaren: “Ten witnesses smelled gun smoke at street level at the time of the shooting”. The wind was 16 mph from the south west. The wind was blowing at 15 mph towards the TSBD. This wind direction would have carried gun smoke from the grassy knoll towards the TSBD also, away from the motorcade. If I understand this correctly, the wind would have been going directly at and in line with the motorcade from the front.
McLaren mentioned that Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents.
I believe that any cover up by the feds wasn’t to shield the assassins; it was to cover up what Hickey had done.
I don’t disagree with car dude but what I found is a car can smell like rotten eggs or gunpowder if it is running too rich. The problem with that scenario is that they only smelled it after the shots were fired. If the car was running too rich it would have smelled of gunpowder from the git go and they didn’t. Also several people in the motorcade were very familiar with the smell of gunpowder and swore that they smelled gunpowder.
Are you talking about people near the limo? If gasoline can smell like gunpowder then all bets are off, especially given the fact that emotions can enter the picture given the gunfire and shock.
The mob did not fire the fatal head shot. The mob did the assassination of JFK, planned, organized, executed, etc, but they did not fire the fatal round.Closeups of frames from the Charles Bronson film that were taken at the time of the fatal head shot apparently shows Hickey seated in the SS car/Queen Mary. Or at least with no rifle in his hands. It's not entirely clear (to me) that that's Hickey; I assume it's him (who else could it be?) since he was seated in the back left. However, it does show, again to me, pretty clearly no one in the back of the car with a raised rifle at the time of the head shot.
In the excitement, Hickey accidently squeezed off a round. I have read that he was standing up on the rear seat which would create an unstable situation. Now imagine him with the AR15 in his hand, the car accelerates or decelerates and he loses his balance. In that situation anyone would try to grab onto something. He grabbed the pistol grip thus squeezing off the fatal round.
The mob did not fire the fatal head shot. The mob did the assassination of JFK, planned, organized, executed, etc, but they did not fire the fatal round.
In the excitement, Hickey accidently squeezed off a round. I have read that he was standing up on the rear seat which would create an unstable situation. Now imagine him with the AR15 in his hand, the car accelerates or decelerates and he loses his balance. In that situation anyone would try to grab onto something. He grabbed the pistol grip thus squeezing off the fatal round.
"Shooting holes in theory that a Secret Service agent killed President Kennedy"
https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html
Closeups of frames from the Charles Bronson film that were taken at the time of the fatal head shot apparently shows Hickey seated in the SS car/Queen Mary. Or at least with no rifle in his hands. It's not entirely clear (to me) that that's Hickey; I assume it's him (who else could it be?) since he was seated in the back left. However, it does show, again to me, pretty clearly no one in the back of the car with a raised rifle at the time of the head shot.
The below are from Dale Myers' site. The story/details can be found here: http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2013/08/drums-of-conspiracy.html (http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2013/08/drums-of-conspiracy.html)
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/bronson_254_083013.jpg)
Responding to the article https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html)
Accidents don’t get any freakier – The bullet had to go somewhere, he wasn’t aiming, he just accidently squeezed off a round.
No solid witnesses - Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents.
Smoking Gun discredits grassy knoll – Yes because of the physics of the fatal shot. It hit JFK in the back of the passed through his brain and then exploded blowing out the right side of his forehead. In the Zapruder film it shows blood and brain matter being blasted out of his head. That was not an entry wound. An entry wound would be slightly larger that the bullet’s diameter.
No one was sure Hickey’s fired the gun – One SS Agent said he thought that Hickey fired the gun.
Lawsuit – yes there was a lawsuit but we don’t know the particulars about it. Menninger went to Hickey’s house to confront him and Hickey didn’t even deny it. I think he said nothing and slammed the door in Menninger’s face if I remember correctly. Kind of peculiar behavior for an innocent man.
It’s dubious using a gapping hole to calculate trajectory – I don’t know that’s it’s dubious but the exit hole would have been somewhere within the gapping hole. Personally I would have used the center of the gapping hole.
Did the bullet enter near the base or 4 inches higher – The illustration shows the bullet entering JFK’s head just right of center about 2/3’s of the way up that back of his head. He deliberately tries to confuse the issue.
The frame of JFK in the limo shows him clutching his neck meaning that was his reaction to the second shot from the TSBD, not the third and fatal shot.
Any bullet fired at a cantaloupe or a watermelon is going to leave a nice round entry hole because of the soft material and the exit wound might be small and round in the case of a jacketed bullet and explosive if it’s a frangible bullet.
The pictures of the carcano bullets look like copper jacketed bullets. I believe the bullet’s fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD were steel jacketed bullets. Copper is way softer than steel.
All the points that the author brings up appear to be twisted. There is another critic that brought up a lot of points also and neglects to mention that there were actual witnesses. I believe McLaren emailed him and gave him an earful.
LOL! “In agent Hickey’s had at the time of the of the third shot.” Get real
Hey, I didn’t say it, the eleven witnesses did, were you there??
Perfectly appropriate for an innocent man to say, really??? How about asking what he is talking about??
Problem with melon tests………..
I am sorry but do disintegrate when they hit a melon, want to see pictures?
McLaren: “Ten witnesses smelled gun smoke at street level at the time of the shooting”. The wind was 16 mph from the south west. The wind was blowing at 15 mph towards the TSBD. Patrolman Brown was standing above the motorcade on the overpass when he smelled gun smoke, wind was coming from behind him. Senator Yarbrough, riding in the car behind the Secret Service car, Ralph W. Yarbrough, was a war veteran and was very familiar with the smell of gun smoke. By days end, Deckers men pulled in several dozen witnesses. Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade.
Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
Dallas Mayor see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
Secret Service agent Winston Lawson testified he saw a fellow agent holding a rifle, an automatic weapon and the first thing that went through his head is that he had fired it.
Agent Hickey was holding the AR 15. Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that he had fired it”.
"Howard Donahue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents". No mention of Mennengers book, I don't know. I have McLarens book on order, I will see what it says.
So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it.
No other weapons were seen by any of the witnesses. Other people, reputable people smelling gun smoke. The smoke flowed down the motorcade, common sense say’s he fired the gun.
It’s possible that the frangible round could have come from the Dal Tex Building or somewhere else behind JFK but then you have a problem with the gun smoke, it isn’t going to reach the motorcade because the wind is blowing in that direction.
A couple of years ago I slo-mo'd the Dix (or Bronson?) vid
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/headwound/z312-wcr-slope-brain-skull.jpg)
I don’t understand what you, JO, mean by “Ok, we got through to you”
Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
• Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
• Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
• Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that he had fired it”.
• Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480
• Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
• Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
• A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
• Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
• Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
• Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439
A lower trajectory slope would exit more up towards the apex, and thus cause a smaller gaping exit wound.
JO, I don’t know much about the physics of what a frangible round does except explode once it hits something and from everything I have seen it usually gets inside what it hit and explodes. I think the exit explosions result would depend on things like thickness of the skull in the vicinity of the explosion.
I leave those kinds of things up to the experts like Howard Donahue and Colin McLaren.
8-10 people say they saw a rifle/machine gun/AR15 in an agents hand, the only agent with a gun out was Hickey.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Willis5Large.jpg) Willis-05 - Z202 (6 sec before head shot) Hickey not lowering to get rifle here | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z213.jpg) Zapruder frame 213 (5.5 sec before head shot) Hickey not lowering to get rifle here | (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_AP6311220989originalhalfsizecrop.jpg) Altgens-06 - Z255 (3.2 sec before head shot) Hickey not lowering to get rifle here |
10-12 people smelled gunpowder which had to have come from the front of the motorcade.
The fatal bullet came from Hickey’s direction.
Deductive logic tells you Hickey fired the fatal shot.
You went from claiming (or agreeing with):
"Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses
that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the
eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents."
to ....
"So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it."
Unless you think both claims amount to the same thing.
Those three we established only saw Hickey with the rifle AFTER the fatal shot. Lawson (Winston) based his thought that Hickey had fired his gun on a thought he had, not from actually witnessing it:
"the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon I had seen,
was that he had fired because this was the only weapon I had seen up to that time."
Interesting that attention is not given to the part in the same affidavit where Holland pins the "first shot" to the head shot:
"After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and
tried to get over in the back seat to him."
Now that's perfectly consistent with when Hickey raised up the rifle, that is, AFTER the head shot. Holland or the transcriber got something mixed up when they associate the "first shot" with the head hsot.
That's nice. But you have to establish whether they actually saw Hickey with the rifle in his hands at the moment of the fatal shot.
Lawson testified that, ".......I also noticed RIGHT AFTER the reports an agent STANDING UP with an automatic weapon in his hand....". He did Not say he saw an Agent rising or getting up inside the Queen Mary.
In order for anyone to see Hickey with, "the rifle in his hands at the Moment of the fatal shot", that person would have to be looking Directly at the Queen Mary when the Kill Shot was fired.
If you know of Any Eyewitness that did this please provide that information.
So he has 6-9 seconds to retrieve the gun, stand up and fire. That’s doable.
But the type of ammunition used by Oswald will disintegrate when it strikes hard tissue (ie: the skull bone)
If you were looking a Hickey when the fatal shot was fired then you would not see JFK’s brains flying out of his head. If you were watching JFK and see the pink flash you would not see Hickey holding the gun. If you were looking at the gun you would not see a muzzle blast because of the AR15’s flash suppressor. It would be difficult for anyone to be at that correct angle looking at JFK and Hickey at the same time. If you were right beside the limos you would be looking at one or the other, you can’t see both at the same time unless you are a fair distance away. Look at the Zapruder film, it didn’t show both.
You doubt my theory I am representing here but you don’t come up with your own solutions. Tell me how you have a dozen witnesses saying a SS Agent was holding a gun,
JFK gets shot in the head from the rear, and a dozen people smell gunpowder, not car fumes?
Tell me how that happens. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it’s a duck.
A jacketed bullet is not designed to disintegrate upon impact. The purpose of the jacket is to keep it together and hopefully go though more than one soldier in combat. I have personally fired jacketed bullets at 2x6 piece of wood and it went straight through and went through another 2x6 a short distance beyond sideways, you could see the profile of the bullet in the second 2x6 and again straight through.
So the jacketed bullet does not disintegrate, at best it will break up into sizable pieces and they would have found them during the autopsy. What they found were very small particles representative of an AR15 round, not a 6.5mm carcano round.
You also saw in the “smoking gun” video that the secret service directed a “technician” to tape fragment’s of a jacketed bullet to the x-rays trying to make it look like JFK was shot with a jacketed bullet.The frangible round that came out of the AR15 is designed to disintegrate and usually explodes after penetration. If a bullet were designed to disintegrate on impact than theoretically all you would get is a skin abrasion, there would be no penetration of the skull.
There have been others that have used computer analysis to show that the single bullet theory is possible
Your link only showed a cover page, no ballistics information
I can’t make out anything in the Bronson video, it’s too blurry.
I know they didn’t have catalytic converters back then but not one witness said exhaust fumes, they all said gunpowder. It certainly could have been a mix of both gunpowder and exhaust fumes. But again, they said gunpowder.
“Wouldn't agent William McIntyre (above, right) see some of Hickey's motions in dropping to the floor and popping back up with a long rifle in his hands in the 2.3 sec before the Altgens photo or the 3.2 sec after?”
After the second shot he was looking at JFK, not Hickey. The time between the second shot and the third shot could easily be 6 secs, more than enough time for Hickey to reach down, grab the AR15, and standup.
One other thing about the angle, not only was the angle not steep enough for the 6th floor of the TSBD. It is also coming from the wrong horizontal angle coming from behind left of JFK.
The only shots fired from the TSBD were from the carcano rifle, where did the 5.56mm bullet come from? Coroner measured the diameter of the hole in that back of JFK’s at 6 mm, carcano bullet diameter is 6.5 mm.
Shot into the pavement, sure it will disintegrate then, but not shooting at a skull.
At best it would break up but no fragments of a jacketed bullet were found during the autopsy, only small particles that a frangible round makes.
So the head shot was from a frangible round, not a jacketed round. The entry hole goes along with this “theory”. The angle of entry says not from the TSBD.
The MFF site displays alright, but they want $35 to join.
A jacketed bullet is not designed to disintegrate upon impact. The purpose of the jacket is to keep it together and hopefully go though more than one soldier in combat. I have personally fired jacketed bullets at 2x6 piece of wood and it went straight through and went through another 2x6 a short distance beyond sideways, you could see the profile of the bullet in the second 2x6 and again straight through. So the jacketed bullet does not disintegrate, at best it will break up into sizable pieces and they would have found them during the autopsy. What they found were very small particles representative of an AR15 round, not a 6.5mm carcano round. You also saw in the “smoking gun” video that the secret service directed a “technician” to tape fragment’s of a jacketed bullet to the x-rays trying to make it look like JFK was shot with a jacketed bullet.
The frangible round that came out of the AR15 is designed to disintegrate and usually explodes after penetration. If a bullet were designed to disintegrate on impact than theoretically all you would get is a skin abrasion, there would be no penetration of the skull.
There have been others that have used computer analysis to show that the single bullet theory is possible
Your link only showed a cover page, no ballistics information
“Same deal. Essentially a hard tissue stimulant.”
That doesn’t make any sense to me. Bullets are made to kill and a head shot is the best way to do it.
"According to tests done by Lattimer firing Carcano bullets, "the lead core and the gliding metal jacket separated on contact with the skull." "The broken bullet scattered dozens of tiny fragments of lead along the track of the bullet from back to front through the brain."
See: "Differences in the Wounding Behavior of the Two Bullets that Struck President Kennedy; An Experimental Study" (Wound Ballistics Review, 1996 Link )”
I could not find the article and your link brought up one of your pictures.
What did he say about the copper jacket? Anyway you could email me the links, for some reason they aren’t working for me on here. Links to MFF, and Differences in wounding behavior…..
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296
Hickey was standing up so it wouldn’t be like the muzzle was next to anyone’s ear. I don’t remember an M16 being very loud but then that was 50 years ago. And there was only one shot. They were looking outside the limo for a shooter so it would be easy enough not to know where the shot originated from.
Like to know what you think "right after" means. Instantly? One second? Four or five seconds?
Well, if you could find someone who noticed Hickey go to the floor (which is where you have the AR-15) in the 5.5 sec between Z213 (the last Z-frame his head is in) and Z313, that would be a start. But remember, during the 2.3 sec between Z213 and Z255 (the Altgens photo), Hickey has to go to the floor, grab the rifle, pop back up and turn his head towards the rear.
If not then, Hickey has to do the same (except instead of turning his head backward, he'll be turning it forward) in the 3.2 sec between the Altgens photo and the head shot. And he has turn off the safety, stand up and lose his balance.
(https://cssanimation.rocks/images/posts/clocks/twelve.gif)
I know of absolutely none. But by Mike Carney's count, there are eleven:
"Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses
that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the
eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents."
So they're driving down Elm street and in full view of everyone and cameras, Hickey reaches down and grabs his Colt AR-15 then stands up, aims and shoots Kennedy in the head? You have got to be kidding? I'm still laughing that's seriously nuts!I am surprised that you used a picture with a gun, an authentic picture at that, unlike those silly back yard ones that you thought were authentic-big difference
It's not easy to hide a Colt AR-15.
(http://thejournalofanomalousscience.com/graphics/documentaries/Hinkley_w-Rifle.png)
Btw most CTs believe that shooting a man in a moving car was impossible, so is a man in a moving car shooting another man in a moving car impossible squared?
JohnM
JohnM
Hickey does not aim and shoot. He reaches down and grabs the AR15, he stands up on the rear seat, the car decelerates or accelerates, he loses his balance, he accidentally squeezes off a round. It’s an accident, just bad luck it was pointing at the back JFK’s head.
The AR-15 could have allegedly discharged as SA Hickey was taking the safety off. Hickey does NOT need to stand upright or stand on top of anything for a possible shot fired to clear the top of the Queen Mary windshield. Just look at Z-205 or Z-206. SA Hickey's seated position has his upper body at a level well above the top of the windshield in front of him. Z-205 and Z-206 show Hickey's light colored dress shirt along with the tie hanging down his chest.bump
JohnM
Hickey does not aim and shoot. He reaches down and grabs the AR15, he stands up on the rear seat, the car decelerates or accelerates, he loses his balance, he accidentally squeezes off a round. It’s an accident, just bad luck it was pointing at the back JFK’s head.
Such idiocy. Imagine the odds that a random, accidental shot fired by Hickey would hit - of all people in Dealey Plaza - JFK squarely in the head. No sane person can entertain this as a possibility. That doesn't even get into the massive cover up including everyone in the car with Hickey.U need to divide thems odds & possibility by 4 or 5, koz Hickey fired 4 or 5 shots.
Such idiocy. Imagine the odds that a random, accidental shot fired by Hickey would hit - of all people in Dealey Plaza - JFK squarely in the head. No sane person can entertain this as a possibility. That doesn't even get into the massive cover up including everyone in the car with Hickey.Imagine the odds that George Warren Hickey had been named John Fitzgerald, & that JFK had been named George Warren.