JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: John Corbett on August 03, 2026, 04:09:05 PM
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This question is directed only to those who believe Oswald's first shot missed and that JFK wasn't hit until the second shot. It is clear from Hill's description of the event that he didn't hear a missed shot. In all of his telling of the event, upon hearing a shot, he started to look over his right shoulder but in doing that, he happened to see JFK had been hit and that's when he jumped off the running board and started racing to the President's limo. For those of us who believe that was the second shot, the question becomes why didn't he hear the first shot? Either he didn't hear it, didn't recognize it as a gunshot, or simply doesn't remember hearing an early shot.
Hill isn't the only one who doesn't remember hearing an earlier shot but his statements make it clear he only remembers hearing two shots. I have theorized that as the two limos came out of the 110 degree turn onto Elm St., they would have begun accelerating and the four motorcycle escorts would have accelerated to keep pace. The sound of four motorcycle throttling up would have been very load, especially to people in close proximity. That would include Hill, JFK, and Jackie, none of whom seemed to react to an early gunshot. That sound could have at least partially muffled the sound of the first shot so that some in the two limos didn't seem to react. The agents on the right running board of the Secret Service limo are seen looking over their right shoulders in the Altgens photo but that came after the second shot. Does anyone else have a different theory as to why some of the occupants of either limo did not seem to hear or react to Oswald's early missed shot.
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This question is directed only to those who believe Oswald's first shot missed and that JFK wasn't hit until the second shot. It is clear from Hill's description of the event that he didn't hear a missed shot. In all of his telling of the event, upon hearing a shot, he started to look over his right shoulder but in doing that, he happened to see JFK had been hit and that's when he jumped off the running board and started racing to the President's limo. For those of us who believe that was the second shot, the question becomes why didn't he hear the first shot? Either he didn't hear it, didn't recognize it as a gunshot, or simply doesn't remember hearing an early shot.
Hill isn't the only one who doesn't remember hearing an earlier shot but his statements make it clear he only remembers hearing two shots. I have theorized that as the two limos came out of the 110 degree turn onto Elm St., they would have begun accelerating and the four motorcycle escorts would have accelerated to keep pace. The sound of four motorcycle throttling up would have been very load, especially to people in close proximity. That would include Hill, JFK, and Jackie, none of whom seemed to react to an early gunshot. That sound could have at least partially muffled the sound of the first shot so that some in the two limos didn't seem to react. The agents on the right running board of the Secret Service limo are seen looking over their right shoulders in the Altgens photo but that came after the second shot. Does anyone else have a different theory as to why some of the occupants of either limo did not seem to hear or react to Oswald's early missed shot.
Does anyone else have a different theory as to why some of the occupants of either limo did not seem to hear or react to Oswald's early missed shot.
Because there wasn't one.
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Does anyone else have a different theory as to why some of the occupants of either limo did not seem to hear or react to Oswald's early missed shot.
Because there wasn't one.
This is why I directed the question at those who know there was an early missed shot.
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This is why I directed the question at those who know there was an early missed shot.
Exactly is it you know? Where is the proof? How is this early missed shot nonsense any different than Andrew's bizarre theory?
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Exactly is it you know? Where is the proof? How is this early missed shot nonsense any different than Andrew's bizarre theory?
It is supported by evidence, both forensic and witness accounts.
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It is supported by evidence, both forensic and witness accounts.
Not according to you it isn't. According to you it isn't supported by any proof at all. Who could ever doubt you.
Tom Graves and I are in agreement that there was an early missed shot but we have a sharp disagreement as to how early that shot occurred. Since there are only clues and not definitive proof of when the first shot occurred, I can recognize that there is a possibility that he could be right and I could be wrong.
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Not according to you it isn't. According to you it isn't supported by any proof at all. Who could ever doubt you.
Tom Graves and I are in agreement that there was an early missed shot but we have a sharp disagreement as to how early that shot occurred. Since there are only clues and not definitive proof of when the first shot occurred, I can recognize that there is a possibility that he could be right and I could be wrong.
If that's what you took from what I wrote, Your reading comprehension is really, really bad. Almost as bad as your powers of reasoning.
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If that's what you took from what I wrote, Your reading comprehension is really, really bad. Almost as bad as your powers of reasoning.
No, I got it right. In fact, exactly right. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. As your own statement indicates, nobody, including yourself, believes this early missed shot nonsense, but don't let a lack of evidence or proof stop you from continuing to prattle on about it.
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No, I got it right. In fact, exactly right. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. As your own statement indicates, nobody, including yourself, believes this early missed shot nonsense, but don't let a lack of evidence or proof stop you from continuing to prattle on about it.
You're even dumber than I thought.
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You're even dumber than I thought.
He's really, really ignorant.
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So which one is right. Which fictional early missed shot, a shot that there is no evidence of having taken place and not one single person even heard is the correct early missed shot. Can the Early Missed Shot Corbett- Graves Brain Trust hash it out and give some much-needed clarity to such a profound theory? It would help with understanding how you two could possibly criticize any other theory.
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So which one is right. Which fictional early missed shot, a shot that there is no evidence of having taken place and not one single person even heard is the correct early missed shot. Can the Early Missed Shot Corbett- Graves Brain Trust hash it out and give some much-needed clarity to such a profound theory? It would help with understanding how you two could possibly criticize any other theory.
(https://i.ibb.co/rjcC93F/Adobe-Express-IMG-2801.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
Both Connally and Jack Ready turn to their right after hearing the first shot fired at Z-157
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So which one is right. Which fictional early missed shot, a shot that there is no evidence of having taken place and not one single person even heard is the correct early missed shot. Can the Early Missed Shot Corbett- Graves Brain Trust hash it out and give some much-needed clarity to such a profound theory? It would help with understanding how you two could possibly criticize any other theory.
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
How do you know JFK didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he quickly started turning his head to his left in Z-144, only to start turning it back to his right by Z-160 and start waving to Mary Wooward and her three colleagues in Z-175?
How do you know that Jackie didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she started turning her head farther to her left in Z-144 and then far back to her right starting in Z-170?
How do you know that John Connally didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he consciously and quickly turned his head to his left starting in Z-150 and then quickly turned it back far to his right, starting in Z-164, to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder from Z-175 through Z-190?
How do you know that Nellie Connally didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she began a quick sweeping head
turn to her right in Z-145?
How do you know Roy Kellerman didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he began leaning over and looking
behind/down to his right in Z-143?
How do you know Jack Ready didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he started leaning to his right and turning his head around in Z-145?
How do you know Glen Bennett didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he started leaning over to his far right to seee around Dave powers by Z-160?
How do you know George Hickey didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he began leaning over and looking down in the direction of the rear tire or pavement in Z-144?
How do you know Rosemary Willis didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she began a quick look away from
the Presidential limo and back towards the TSBD in Z-140?
-- Tom
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So which one is right. Which fictional early missed shot, a shot that there is no evidence of having taken place and not one single person even heard is the correct early missed shot. Can the Early Missed Shot Corbett- Graves Brain Trust hash it out and give some much-needed clarity to such a profound theory? It would help with understanding how you two could possibly criticize any other theory.
You are lying. There were three spent shells found in the sniper's nest. There was a clear consensus among the witnesses that that were three shots. The witnesses who only remembered hearing two were those in one of the two limos that were straddled by four accelerating motorcycles. The three witnesses closest to the shooter, the employees on the fifth floor, all testified to hearing three shots. The fact there is a disagreement as to precisely that shot occurred is not an indication there was no such shot. It simply reflects the fact that the evidence for when that shot occurred is less than conclusive.
If there's no snow on the ground when you go to bed and when you wake up, there's snow on the ground, it is a logical conclusion that it snowed overnight. Would you have to know precisely when it snowed to reach that conclusion?
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You are lying. There were three spent shells found in the sniper's nest. There was a clear consensus among the witnesses that that were three shots. The witnesses who only remembered hearing two were those in one of the two limos that were straddled by four accelerating motorcycles. The three witnesses closest to the shooter, the employees on the fifth floor, all testified to hearing three shots. The fact there is a disagreement as to precisely that shot occurred is not an indication there was no such shot. It simply reflects the fact that the evidence for when that shot occurred is less than conclusive.
If there's no snow on the ground when you go to bed and when you wake up, there's snow on the ground, it is a logical conclusion that it snowed overnight. Would you have to know precisely when it snowed to reach that conclusion?
The three witnesses under the SN, that is just plain wrong. A large number of witnesses only heard two shots and saw JFK's reaction to just two shots. Three shells do not mean anything at all. Snow really?
So, your point is you lack any evidence of any kind?
You are stating Tom Graves is right? You think his dufus early missed shot scenario is the right one? OK, it doesn't really matter, both of you are way off the rails.
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The three witnesses under the SN, that is just plain wrong. A large number of witnesses only heard two shots and saw JFK's reaction to just two shots. Three shells do not mean anything at all. Snow really?
Are you going to continue to lie and deny that the three TSBD employees one floor below Oswald testified that they heard three shots?
It varies depending on which survey you want to cite but in each case, the people who only remember two shots are a small minority of the DP witnesses.
I should have known better than to use a rhetorical analogy to make my point. It requires you to think.
So, your point is you lack any evidence of any kind?
You get dumber with every post. I'm beginning to think you are nothing but a troll who gets his jollies just by disagreeing with people without every contributing anything of value to the discourse.
You are stating Tom Graves is right? You think his dufus early missed shot scenario is the right one? OK, it doesn't really matter, both of you are way off the rails.
Way off the rails is your territory. Your choo-choo jumped the tracks a long time ago and plowed through a cornfield.
I agree with Tom Graves regarding the early missed shot but disagree with him on precisely when that shot was fired. Our disagreement is over 1 1/4 seconds. Why is that hard for you to comprehend.
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Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
How do you know JFK didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he quickly started turning his head to his left in Z-144, only to start turning it back to his right by Z-160 and start waving to Mary Wooward and her three colleagues in Z-175?
How do you know that Jackie didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she started turning her head farther to her left in Z-144 and then far back to her right starting in Z-170?
How do you know that John Connally didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he consciously and quickly turned his head to his left starting in Z-150 and then quickly turned it back far to his right, starting in Z-164, to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder from Z-175 through Z-190?
How do you know that Nellie Connally didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she began a quick sweeping head
turn to her right in Z-145?
How do you know Roy Kellerman didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he began leaning over and looking
behind/down to his right in Z-143?
How do you know Jack Ready didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he started leaning to his right and turning his head around in Z-145?
How do you know Glen Bennett didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he started leaning over to his far right to seee around Dave powers by Z-160?
How do you know George Hickey didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why he began leaning over and looking down in the direction of the rear tire or pavement in Z-144?
How do you know Rosemary Willis didn't hear Oswald's first, missing-everything, "Z-124" shot, and that's why she began a quick look away from
the Presidential limo and back towards the TSBD in Z-140?
-- Tom
In Tom Graves Land every time someone turns from one side to the other that equates to a missed shot? So, how many missed shots were there from the airport to Dealey Plaza? I would bet the KGB knows how many missed shots there were along the route.
Not to be the bearer of bad news but it was a motorcade parade with people on both sides of the street. The SS and members of the parade are supposed to turn from side to side. Maybe you did not know that.
Where are the quotes about an early missed shot to go along with your witness list. Not one of those people in the post stated there was an early missed shot. They had no problem identifying the two shots that were fired.
The nature of your post would indicate you think Corbett is completely wrong with his early missed shot scenario. Was there more than one missed shot on just Elm Street?
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Are you going to continue to lie and deny that the three TSBD employees one floor below Oswald testified that they heard three shots?
It varies depending on which survey you want to cite but in each case, the people who only remember two shots are a small minority of the DP witnesses.
I should have known better than to use a rhetorical analogy to make my point. It requires you to think. You get dumber with every post. I'm beginning to think you are nothing but a troll who gets his jollies just by disagreeing with people without every contributing anything of value to the discourse.
Way off the rails is your territory. Your choo-choo jumped the tracks a long time ago and plowed through a cornfield.
I agree with Tom Graves regarding the early missed shot but disagree with him on precisely when that shot was fired. Our disagreement is over 1 1/4 seconds. Why is that hard for you to comprehend.
It is obvious why you shy away from reading the witness statements. You aren't able to comprehend them.
You only need the Zapruder film to conclude there was an early missed shot. Nothing else. How could there be two interpretations of it. Is Graves better at interpreting the film than you? Please tell me, I want to believe. The fictional world you are residing in is maybe better than the real world.
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In Tom Graves Land every time someone turns from one side to the other that equates to a missed shot? So, how many missed shots were there from the airport to Dealey Plaza? I would bet the KGB knows how many missed shots there were along the route.
I'll leave it to Tom Graves to defend his scenario.
Not to be the bearer of bad news but it was a motorcade parade with people on both sides of the street. The SS and members of the parade are supposed to turn from side to side. Maybe you did not know that.
Thanks for that observation, Captain Obvious.
Where are the quotes about an early missed shot to go along with your witness list. Not one of those people in the post stated there was an early missed shot. They had no problem identifying the two shots that were fired.
You continue to deny that most of the earwitnesses heard 3 shots. There is no reason for them to identify one of them as an early shot. To them, there was a first, second, and third shot.
The nature of your post would indicate you think Corbett is completely wrong with his early missed shot scenario. Was there more than one missed shot on just Elm Street?
You really show how bad you are at reasoning with statements like the above.
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It is obvious why you shy away from reading the witness statements. You aren't able to comprehend them.
I doubt you could spell "cat" if we spotted you the "C" and the "A".
You only need the Zapruder film to conclude there was an early missed shot. Nothing else. How could there be two interpretations of it. Is Graves better at interpreting the film than you? Please tell me, I want to believe. The fictional world you are residing in is maybe better than the real world.
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Whatever few doubts I've had about you being an obnoxious troll just vanished. You aren't here to argue points. You are here just to be a pain in the Bahookie. That is one skill you have which is undeniable. You tell me I can't comprehend witness statements. Here are the sworn statements from the three TSBD employees who were right below Oswald when he fired the shots.
From Harold Norman. First from his affidavit.
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
From his WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three."
I guess his answer was too complex for you to understand.
From Junior Jarman's WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going I don’t believe you have looking at the photo- west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought backfire.
Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn’t, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one. "
So tell us. How many shots did Junior Jarman just describe?
Lastly, Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember."
How many shots did Williams describe?
I have just cited the three witnesses who were closest to the shots and were less affected by the noise from the motorcade than anybody on the ground. All said three shots. It has occurred to me that I have never seen you quote a single witness. You just lie about what people have said. That convinces me you are here for one purpose only. To troll.
Go away, troll.
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I doubt you could spell "cat" if we spotted you the "C" and the "A".
You only need the Zapruder film to conclude there was an early missed shot. Nothing else. How could there be two interpretations of it. Is Graves better at interpreting the film than you? Please tell me, I want to believe. The fictional world you are residing in is maybe better than the real world.
Whatever few doubts I've had about you being an obnoxious troll just vanished. You aren't here to argue points. You are here just to be a pain in the Bahookie. That is one skill you have which is undeniable. You tell me I can't comprehend witness statements. Here are the sworn statements from the three TSBD employees who were right below Oswald when he fired the shots.
From Harold Norman. First from his affidavit.
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
From his WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three."
I guess his answer was too complex for you to understand.
From Junior Jarman's WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going I don’t believe you have looking at the photo- west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought backfire.
Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn’t, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one. "
So tell us. How many shots did Junior Jarman just describe?
Lastly, Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony:
"Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember."
How many shots did Williams describe?
I have just cited the three witnesses who were closest to the shots and were less affected by the noise from the motorcade than anybody on the ground. All said three shots. It has occurred to me that I have never seen you quote a single witness. You just lie about what people have said. That convinces me you are here for one purpose only. To troll.
Go away, troll.
I doubt you could spell "cat" if we spotted you the "C" and the "A".
Nice, you are now quoting Dallas Cowboy Linebacker Hollywood Henderson.
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You made this big proclamation about these three witnesses being insulated from all the noise and in the end, you could not have found three worse witnesses to support your fantasy theory. Not one of them even remotely hints at an early missed shot. Is this why you shy away from witness statements. The embarrassment of not being able to comprehend what they state.
Do you read their statements at all or even possess the most basic understanding of the assassination.
Harold Norman stated JFK slumped after the first shot. How is that in keeping with an early missed shot.
Mr. NORMAN. "I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,"
James Jarman states the third shot took place after the car accelerates. If you are capable of doing the math, where is there an early missed shot in his statement. Here I will repeat your post for you, maybe this time you will actually read it instead of looking for the words three shots.
Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn’t, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward---Here I will help, he was describing the headshot.
Bonnie Ray Williams stated in both his 11/22 Sheriffs Affidavit and his 11/23 FBI Affidavit that there were only two shots. There it is again from an eyewitness, two shots once again being stated by an eyewitness. Maybe believe him.
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I'll leave it to Tom Graves to defend his scenario.
Thanks for that observation, Captain Obvious.
You continue to deny that most of the earwitnesses heard 3 shots. There is no reason for them to identify one of them as an early shot. To them, there was a first, second, and third shot.
You really show how bad you are at reasoning with statements like the above.
You weren't able to understand the post? If you cannot figure out if Graves was right at Z124 or were you at Z150 or whatever it is, what does that say about the evidence of an early missed shot in general.
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In Tom Graves Land every time someone turns from one side to the other that equates to a missed shot? So, how many missed shots were there from the airport to Dealey Plaza? I would bet the KGB knows how many missed shots there were along the route.
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nissan,
Between Z-140 and Z-150, five people in the limo, three Secret Service agents in the follow-up car, and running girl Rosemary Willis turned their heads rapidly in response to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124."
Not to be the bearer of bad news but it was a motorcade parade with people on both sides of the street. The SS and members of the parade are supposed to turn from side to side. Maybe you did not know that.
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
Jack Ready's job was to keep an eye on JFK, not to lean over and move his head around like a bobblehead doll.
To see if JFK was okay after Oswald's first shot, Glen Bennett had to look around Dave Powers in the jump seat. That's what we see Bennett doing starting around Z-150.
One would think George Hickey's job didn't entail his bending over as though he was barfing, but that's what he did (bend over like he was barfing) starting around Z-145.
Where are the quotes about an early missed shot to go along with your witness list. Not one of those people in the post stated there was an early missed shot. They had no problem identifying the two shots that were fired.
Both Ready and Hickey said the first shot sounded like a firecracker.
John Connally recognized it as a high-powered rifle shot.
The nature of your post would indicate you think Corbett is completely wrong with his early missed shot scenario. Was there more than one missed shot on just Elm Street?
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
The important thing is that Oswald's first shot was early and it missed everything.
D'oh!
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You weren't able to understand the post? If you cannot figure out if Graves was right at Z124 or were you at Z150 or whatever it is, what does that say about the evidence of an early missed shot in general.
Go away, troll.
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Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nissan,
Between Z-140 and Z-150, five people in the limo, three Secret Service agents in the follow-up car, and running girl Rosemary Willis turned their heads rapidly in response to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124."
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
Jack Ready's job was to keep an eye on JFK, not to lean over and move his head around like a bobblehead doll.
To see if JFK was okay after Oswald's first shot, Glen Bennett had to look around Dave Powers in the jump seat. That's what we see Bennett doing starting around Z-150.
One would think George Hickey's job didn't entail his bending over as though he was barfing, but that's what he did (bend over like he was barfing) starting around Z-145.
Both Ready and Hickey said the first shot sounded like a firecracker.
John Connally recognized it as a high-powered rifle shot.
Dear Jack "Ignoramus" Nessan,
The important thing is that Oswald's first shot was early and it missed everything.
D'oh!
Jack Ready's job was to keep an eye on JFK, not to lean over and move his head around like a bobblehead doll.
So, while you are sitting in your chair in front of the mirror and wiping the clown makeup from your face you come up with the idea that the Secret Service was not there to surveille the crowd but to stare at JFK in case he is shot so they can write an accurate report afterwards? Who would have thought it.
Other than point out the Secret Service was not there to protect JFK, you have not supplied one scintilla of evidence of an early missed shot. Absolutely nothing, but don't let that stop you from pretending it is all true.
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Go away, troll.
I am not going anywhere. Laughing at and pointing out how stupid the concept of an early missed shot really is, brightens mundane days.
My new favorite post is how reliant you are on the Zapruder Film for knowledge, but you aren't even able to determine when the early missed shot took place. It just did.
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I am not going anywhere. Laughing at and pointing out how stupid the concept of an early missed shot really is, brightens mundane days.
My new favorite post is how reliant you are on the Zapruder Film for knowledge, but you aren't even able to determine when the early missed shot took place. It just did.
Troll
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Does anyone else have a different theory as to why some of the occupants of either limo did not seem to hear or react to Oswald's early missed shot.
Because there wasn't one.
Yes there was. According to John Connally. On the CBS news special "The Warren Report", Connally clearly states that just after the turn onto Elm Street he heard a rifle shot, and turned to his right. This statement alone proves there was an early shot. He said he didn't hear the shot that hit him, which would be the 2nd shot, which struck both he and President Kennedy. He heard the 3rd and final shot and felt the results of it. So Connally heard a total of 2 shots. Furthermore, evidence that backs up Connally's statements of the earlier shot are the quick, 1/4 of a second head turn he made. Connally was looking to his right, turned to look to his left, and SUDDENLY snaps his head back to his right, and his head remains in that position until he changes his position for the first time since head turn to the right in 1/4 of a second in frame 224 pf the Zapruder film. He gaze to the right is transfixed until his face becomes distorted when he's struck around frame 222. This is all captured in the Zapruder film.
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Yes there was. According to John Connally. On the CBS news special "The Warren Report", Connally clearly states that just after the turn onto Elm Street he heard a rifle shot, and turned to his right. This statement alone proves there was an early shot. He said he didn't hear the shot that hit him, which would be the 2nd shot, which struck both he and President Kennedy. He heard the 3rd and final shot and felt the results of it. So Connally heard a total of 2 shots. Furthermore, evidence that backs up Connally's statements of the earlier shot are the quick, 1/4 of a second head turn he made. Connally was looking to his right, turned to look to his left, and SUDDENLY snaps his head back to his right, and his head remains in that position until he changes his position for the first time since head turn to the right in 1/4 of a second in frame 224 pf the Zapruder film. He gaze to the right is transfixed until his face becomes distorted when he's struck around frame 222. This is all captured in the Zapruder film.
I've been waiting to see if any of the LNs had a theory as to why Clint Hill specifically, but also other passengers in both limos, didn't seem to have either heard or recognized the first shot for what it was. I have speculated the roar of the accelerating motorcycles could have disguised the sound of that first shot but I wondered if others had different theories for that.
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The other agents in the followup car heard three shots despite operating under the same disadvantages vis-a-vis the motorcycle engines, so I'm not sure if that's the answer.
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The other agents in the followup car heard three shots despite operating under the same disadvantages vis-a-vis the motorcycle engines, so I'm not sure if that's the answer.
I don't think that's true. Hickey's report indicated JFK had been hit by the first shot. He said the next two shots were so close together that there was no time between them. That indicates to me he didn't hear the first shot and heard a double sound from the last shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm
Landis' report only indicated there were two shots and that the second shot was the head shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm
Ready's report was vague about the number of shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm
Robert's report indicated 3 shots but was unsure whether the headshot was the second or third shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm
Kinney's (the driver) report indicated just 2 shots
https://www.jfk-online.com/kinney.html
McIntyre's report indicated 3 shots but estimated only 5 seconds for all three shots
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-mcint.htm
Bennett's report seemed to be the most accurate regarding the number, timing, and sequence of the shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm
David Powers affidavit indicated 3 shots but according to his description, JFK started leaning left after the first shot which indicates he thought JFK had been hit by the first shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/powers1.htm
Lastly, we have Kenny O'Donnell's WC testimony in which he describes 3 shots in 5 or 6 seconds with the first two being closer together
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/odonnell.htm
In just the Secret Service follow up car, we have 9 divergent versions of the shooting. People wonder why I have so little faith in eyewitness recollections.
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Hill heard the first shot.
He also heard the second shot.
He doesn't remember hearing the third shot as he had a lot on his plate at that moment, including stopping Jackie from jumping off the back of the limo.
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Hill heard the first shot.
He also heard the second shot.
He doesn't remember hearing the third shot as he had a lot on his plate at that moment, including stopping Jackie from jumping off the back of the limo.
More Looney Tunes.
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Hill heard the first shot.
He also heard the second shot.
He doesn't remember hearing the third shot as he had a lot on his plate at that moment, including stopping Jackie from jumping off the back of the limo.
Yes i agree.
But at Z312 Hill was galloping & was level with the front left wheel.
But somehow did not hear Hickey's burst of 4 or 5 or 6 shots, less than 3m from his right ear.
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At Z312 Hill was galloping & was level with the front left wheel but somehow did not hear Hickey's burst of 4 or 5 or 6 shots, less than 3m from his right ear.
LOL!
Good one!
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I've been waiting to see if any of the LNs had a theory as to why Clint Hill specifically, but also other passengers in both limos, didn't seem to have either heard or recognized the first shot for what it was. I have speculated the roar of the accelerating motorcycles could have disguised the sound of that first shot but I wondered if others had different theories for that.
Clint Hill was drinking the night before and so were others.
https://www.newsweek.com/drunken-truth-about-jfk-assassination-391613 (https://www.newsweek.com/drunken-truth-about-jfk-assassination-391613)
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Hill heard the first shot.
He also heard the second shot.
He doesn't remember hearing the third shot as he had a lot on his plate at that moment, including stopping Jackie from jumping off the back of the limo.
By the time Jackie climbed out on the trunk, the shooting was over. That couldn't have been the reason Hill didn't hear one of the shots.
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I've been intrigued by the idea that Oswald was trying to achieve two things with the first shot; Checking the scope, which he probably didn't trust, by aiming at a fixed object (possibly the manhole cover); and standing well back from the window.
By standing well back from the window the sound would be less obvious to people on the street, and would also create a sense of doubt or confusion when the next two shots came, as proved the case.
The lady "manning" the TSBD switchboard on the second floor testified that the first shot "sounded like a cannon and shook the west side of the building".
All speculation of course, but it could explain why many people missed the sound of the first shot.
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I've been intrigued by the idea that Oswald was trying to achieve two things with the first shot; Checking the scope, which he probably didn't trust, by aiming at a fixed object (possibly the manhole cover); and standing well back from the window.
By standing well back from the window the sound would be less obvious to people on the street, and would also create a sense of doubt or confusion when the next two shots came, as proved the case.
The lady "manning" the TSBD switchboard on the second floor testified that the first shot "sounded like a cannon and shook the west side of the building".
All speculation of course, but it could explain why many people missed the sound of the first shot.
There was a guy on McAdams' website who used to argue that Oswald's first shot was a zeroing shot but that never made sense to me because it is impractical.
For starters, Oswuld would have to be able to see where the shot struck to know what kind of adjustment was needed to the scope. How could he do that with the recoil of the rifle moving the scope off the intended target. Even if he could see that, he would then have to take the time to adjust the scope. By the time he did that, the target would be long gone. Normally, when zeroing a rifle, you would do that from a bench rest to eliminate human error from the equation. You are also probably going to do the process multiple times.
It would have been nice for Oswald to have a perfectly zeroed rifle, but hardly necessary. He wasn't in a shooting competition. He just needed to be able to shoot a man at ranges of 88 yards and less. He seems to have done alright.
There are a number of YouTube videos that show how to zero a scope, and they all use a 3 shot process and a bench rest. Oswald only had 4 rounds and a limited time to fire them.
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I'm thinking that it was a "checking shot", not a sighting-in or zeroing exercise involving many shots. If the shot was way off, Oswald could switch to the iron sights; if it was reasonable stick with the scope.
Of course, if he used the sights, then we have to contend with the iron sights being set for 400m. Was Oswald aware of this we wonder?
The answer to all this first shot speculation unfortunately died with Oswald (thanks Jack, for 60 years of conspiracy speculation).
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I'm thinking that it was a "checking shot", not a sighting-in or zeroing exercise involving many shots. If the shot was way off, Oswald could switch to the iron sights; if it was reasonable stick with the scope.
Of course, if he used the sights, then we have to contend with the iron sights being set for 400m. Was Oswald aware of this we wonder?
The answer to all this first shot speculation unfortunately died with Oswald (thanks Jack, for 60 years of conspiracy speculation).
It still doesn't make much sense. With just four rounds and a limited amount of time, why would Oswald waste time and one of his rounds on a shot that wouldn't tell him much anyway? I can't remember my source, but I've always been under the impression the Carcano's fixed sights were zeroed for 200m. Either way, it would aim high at the distances Oswald was firing from but he had to aim a little high to lead his target.
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The 3 stacked boxes suggest the shooter was going to shoot with rifle sticking partly out the window. Unless Malcolm Couch , Bob Jackson and Amos Euins were encouraged to fabricate a story, their WC testimony confirms this was the plan, since they all saw a rifle stuck OUT the window.
There is no logical reason why Oswald or some other TSBD shooter would try a pot shot while standing at Z124.
The rifle was found with the scope so out of alignment that a shim had to be inserted under the mount itself to change the mount angle. The metal bracket that held the scope was not bent, so it appears that the rifle was assembled without the shim on purpose.
It could be Oswald never had intended to use the scope , and assembled the rifle without the requisite shim to introduce speculation about the rifle being planted after the fact.
This might have been a fantasy in Oswald’s OCD mind of acquiring infamy after a trial jury would be convinced he was in fact a patsy.
As to Why Clint Hill did not hear a shot before Z224, there’s the volume of crowd noise to consider besides just some motorcycle noise and some possible desensitization of the SS to sudden 100 db level motorcycle backfires they had probably already experienced multiple times during the whole motorcade trip.
Ok that is about as far to the LN side that I dare venture otherwise my credibility as a CT Skeptic would in jeopardy :)
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The 3 stacked boxes suggest the shooter was going to shoot with rifle sticking partly out the window. Unless Malcolm Couch , Bob Jackson and Amos Euins were encouraged to fabricate a story, their WC testimony confirms this was the plan, since they all saw a rifle stuck OUT the window.
There is no logical reason why Oswald or some other TSBD shooter would try a pot shot while standing at Z124.
The rifle was found with the scope so out of alignment that a shim had to be inserted under the mount itself to change the mount angle. The metal bracket that held the scope was not bent, so it appears that the rifle was assembled without the shim on purpose.
It could be Oswald never had intended to use the scope , and assembled the rifle without the requisite shim to introduce speculation about the rifle being planted after the fact.
This might have been a fantasy in Oswald’s OCD mind of acquiring infamy after a trial jury would be convinced he was in fact a patsy.
As to Why Clint Hill did not hear a shot before Z224, there’s the volume of crowd noise to consider besides just some motorcycle noise and some possible desensitization of the SS to sudden 100 db level motorcycle backfires they had probably already experienced multiple times during the whole motorcade trip.
Ok that is about as far to the LN side that I dare venture otherwise my credibility as a CT Skeptic would in jeopardy :)
One thing we will never know is what Oswald was thinking because he never told us. Unless you want to conduct a seance, I doubt he ever will.
We don't know whether Oswald used the scope or the fixed sights although I lean toward him using the scope. From my own limited experience, I know the scope is a great aid in quickly reacquiring the target. It is much easier to put the cross hairs on the target the target then getting the front and rear sights properly aligned on the target. Both the scope and the fixed sights would aim high at the range Oswald fired at. As the WCR pointed out, this would actually aid a shooter firing at a moving target since he would need to lead the target with his aim. Oswald might have known this and taken it into account, or it could have been just blind dumb luck. What we do know is the Carcano was the murder weapon because the ballistics matching clearly establishes that. Not only was Oswald's Carcano positively matched to the recovered bullets, but no other bullets from any other rifle were ever recovered. Why do you suppose that is?
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I checked the Carcano web-site, and the spec for Oswald's rifle says the fixed sights are set for 300m, but it gets a bit complicated, as users are told to vary the position of the front sight "circle" within the rear sight V-slot. The V is made intentionally large, and positioning the front sight in the center of the V gives 300m; positioning it at the top of the V gives 400m, while positioning it at the very bottom of the V gives 200m range.
Seems that this was a cost saving measure for wartime. I'd previously read that some Carcanos were made with reduced barrel rifling, also for cost cutting, but I don't think Oswald's rifle was affected by this.
I wonder if Oswald was aware of any of this.
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I checked the Carcano web-site, and the spec for Oswald's rifle says the fixed sights are set for 300m, but it gets a bit complicated, as users are told to vary the position of the front sight "circle" within the rear sight V-slot. The V is made intentionally large, and positioning the front sight in the center of the V gives 300m; positioning it at the top of the V gives 400m, while positioning it at the very bottom of the V gives 200m range.
Seems that this was a cost saving measure for wartime. I'd previously read that some Carcanos were made with reduced barrel rifling, also for cost cutting, but I don't think Oswald's rifle was affected by this.
I wonder if Oswald was aware of any of this.
Excellent information. Thanks for posting it. At the short-range Oswald was firing at I doubt the minimal rifling would make much difference in the accuracy. Obviously, it didn't.
Did Oswald know all of this? Probably not. Men don't like reading directions. We take our toys out of the box and have at it.