JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Darragh McConville on May 07, 2026, 06:30:08 PM
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Hello Everyone,
This is my first post - apologies if this topic has been broached before, I was unable to find it using the search feature.
I have followed and tracked the statements recorded by David Lifton and Doug Horne for many years. I feel I have stitched together the - admittedly complex and at times hard to believe - timeline of events concerning the casket(s) and body from Parkland to Bethesda.
The one piece of the puzzle which I cannot fit is based on an "off the record" conversation between David Lifton and Richard Lipsey where no recording equipment was permitted or used.
Lipsey stated - and Lifton directly quoted him - that JFK's left arm was raised like a "Heil Hitler salute" when he saw the body at Bethesda. Furthermore, Lipsey said that "Humes had to jump on the body and lower it with his knee."
Lifton has discussed this in a few online videos including this series -
Lifton proceeded to hypothesise why the left arm - and only the left arm - was raised. He implied that this was due to storage conditions for the body aboard the luggage compartment of Air Force 1.
Irrespective of how it was raised, if we take Lipsey at his word, we assume the arm was as raised as it was, I have a major problem.
What I know to be true is that the body was delivered inside a "zipped body bag" inside a "shipping casket" by helicopter, then black cadillac hearse to the back door of the Bethesday morgue at rougly 6:35pm.
Looking at both the zipped body bag (as cofirmed by Paul O'Connor at Bethesday) and the grey shipping casket (as confirmed by Jim Jenkins at Bethesda) I can't physically see how JFK's arm could have been raised at all. There just isn't the room inside the body bag NOR the casket.
I would warmly welcome this great community to challenge me on this and I am open to being convinced that this is simply a false statement from Lipsey - he is the only person as far as I know that stated this. Equally, I'm open to being told that the body bags have plenty of room for a raised arm - but logistically, I'm sceptical.
I'm looking forward to your comments.
Thank you.
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Hello Everyone,
This is my first post - apologies if this topic has been broached before, I was unable to find it using the search feature.
I have followed and tracked the statements recorded by David Lifton and Doug Horne for many years.
Why would you do that? Their theory of postmortem surgery is among the silliest ever made about the JFKA.
I feel I have stitched together the - admittedly complex and at times hard to believe
That's an understatement.
- timeline of events concerning the casket(s) and body from Parkland to Bethesda.
The one piece of the puzzle which I cannot fit is based on an "off the record" conversation between David Lifton and Richard Lipsey where no recording equipment was permitted or used.
Lipsey stated - and Lifton directly quoted him - that JFK's left arm was raised like a "Heil Hitler salute" when he saw the body at Bethesda. Furthermore, Lipsey said that "Humes had to jump on the body and lower it with his knee."
And here I though Lifton was crazy. What was I thinking?
Lifton has discussed this in a few online videos including this series -
Lifton proceeded to hypothesise why the left arm - and only the left arm - was raised. He implied that this was due to storage conditions for the body aboard the luggage compartment of Air Force 1.
About as silly as the rest of his theory. No more. No less.
Irrespective of how it was raised, if we take Lipsey at his word,
Why would anyone do that?
we assume the arm was as raised as it was, I have a major problem.
What I know to be true is that the body was delivered inside a "zipped body bag" inside a "shipping casket" by helicopter, then black cadillac hearse to the back door of the Bethesday morgue at rougly 6:35pm.
What else do you know that isn't true?
Looking at both the zipped body bag (as cofirmed by Paul O'Connor at Bethesday)
I'm not at all surprised you think Paul O'Connor is a credible witness.
and the grey shipping casket (as confirmed by Jim Jenkins at Bethesda) I can't physically see how JFK's arm could have been raised at all. There just isn't the room inside the body bag NOR the casket.
You're starting to sound rational now.
I would warmly welcome this great community to challenge me on this
I think I already have.
and I am open to being convinced that this is simply a false statement from Lipsey - he is the only person as far as I know that stated this. Equally, I'm open to being told that the body bags have plenty of room for a raised arm - but logistically, I'm sceptical.
I'm looking forward to your comments.
Thank you.
Not only is Lipsey off his rocker, so are Lifton and Horne. The whole body snatcher theory of postmortem surgery is as silly as it gets. It's been about 10 years since I've seen a proponent of this goofball scenario. It is absolutely preposterous to think that postmortem surgery could have been performed on the body and that the pathologists wouldn't have instantly recoginzed it. Even a first year medical student wouldn't be fooled by something like that.
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The whole body snatcher theory of postmortem surgery is as silly as it gets. It's been about 10 years since I've seen a proponent of this goofball scenario. It is absolutely preposterous to think that postmortem surgery could have been performed on the body and that the pathologists wouldn't have instantly recoginzed it. Even a first year medical student wouldn't be fooled by something like that.
You're speaking the truth, John. I feel like Lifton took advantage of some of the Bethesda witnesses and through the power of suggestion was able to convince them that they saw or heard things that actually never happened.
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Why would you do that? Their theory of postmortem surgery is among the silliest ever made about the JFKA.That's an understatement.And here I though Lifton was crazy. What was I thinking?About as silly as the rest of his theory. No more. No less.Why would anyone do that?What else do you know that isn't true?I'm not at all surprised you think Paul O'Connor is a credible witness.You're starting to sound rational now.I think I already have.Not only is Lipsey off his rocker, so are Lifton and Horne. The whole body snatcher theory of postmortem surgery is as silly as it gets. It's been about 10 years since I've seen a proponent of this goofball scenario. It is absolutely preposterous to think that postmortem surgery could have been performed on the body and that the pathologists wouldn't have instantly recoginzed it. Even a first year medical student wouldn't be fooled by something like that.
Did you forget about the, "surgery to the head area", declaration that Lifton discovered buried inside the 26 Volumes? Your "pathologist" claim above is incorrect based on this being in the 26 volumes.
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Hello Everyone,
This is my first post - apologies if this topic has been broached before, I was unable to find it using the search feature.
I have followed and tracked the statements recorded by David Lifton and Doug Horne for many years. I feel I have stitched together the - admittedly complex and at times hard to believe - timeline of events concerning the casket(s) and body from Parkland to Bethesda.
The one piece of the puzzle which I cannot fit is based on an "off the record" conversation between David Lifton and Richard Lipsey where no recording equipment was permitted or used.
Lipsey stated - and Lifton directly quoted him - that JFK's left arm was raised like a "Heil Hitler salute" when he saw the body at Bethesda. Furthermore, Lipsey said that "Humes had to jump on the body and lower it with his knee."
Lifton has discussed this in a few online videos including this series -
Lifton proceeded to hypothesise why the left arm - and only the left arm - was raised. He implied that this was due to storage conditions for the body aboard the luggage compartment of Air Force 1.
Irrespective of how it was raised, if we take Lipsey at his word, we assume the arm was as raised as it was, I have a major problem.
What I know to be true is that the body was delivered inside a "zipped body bag" inside a "shipping casket" by helicopter, then black cadillac hearse to the back door of the Bethesday morgue at rougly 6:35pm.
Looking at both the zipped body bag (as cofirmed by Paul O'Connor at Bethesday) and the grey shipping casket (as confirmed by Jim Jenkins at Bethesda) I can't physically see how JFK's arm could have been raised at all. There just isn't the room inside the body bag NOR the casket.
I would warmly welcome this great community to challenge me on this and I am open to being convinced that this is simply a false statement from Lipsey - he is the only person as far as I know that stated this. Equally, I'm open to being told that the body bags have plenty of room for a raised arm - but logistically, I'm sceptical.
I'm looking forward to your comments.
Thank you.
Welcome Darragh. Good to have you aboard.
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Did you forget about the, "surgery to the head area", declaration that Lifton discovered buried inside the 26 Volumes? Your "pathologist" claim above is incorrect based on this being in the 26 volumes.
The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.
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The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.
They did a masterful job of confusing us as to which evidence is valid and which evidence is not.
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The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.
So the WC came to a conclusion on the assassination of JFK, with 26 VOLUMES of evidence and data Not having been vetted for value or relevance? "Masterful"? More like, "Send In The Clowns".
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They did a masterful job of confusing us as to which evidence is valid and which evidence is not.
People who are confused about the 26 volumes have confused themselves by not understanding what the 26 volumes are. It was not intended to be the long version of the WCR. The WC simply put everything they had gathered on the table whether or not it was probative or relevant. It was the job of the WC to go through it and make sense of it. In some cases they had to resolve conflicting evidence, mainly among the witness statements. The witnesses often gave testimony that conflicted with other witnesses and with the hard evidence. The WC was tasked with determining which parts of the eyewitness accounts were probative and which parts were just plain wrong. In the end, their conclusions for the most part were spot on.
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So the WC came to a conclusion on the assassination of JFK, with 26 VOLUMES of evidence and data Not having been vetted for value or relevance? "Masterful"? More like, "Send In The Clowns".
The WC and their staff lawyers were the ones that vetted it. The evidence came to them in raw form, completely unvetted. The 26 volumes were not intended to provide conclusions. They were a presentation of what the WCR conclusions were based on. When they came across conflicting evidence, they resolved the conflicts where they could and gave reasons why they would accept one eyewitness account and dismiss the conflicting account. When they couldn't resolve the conflicts, they said so and gave their reasons why they could not reach a definitive conclusion. That's why they never concluded which of Oswald's 3 shots missed. The Z-film lacked sound and the witness accounts were contradictory.
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The WC and their staff lawyers were the ones that vetted it. The evidence came to them in raw form, completely unvetted. The 26 volumes were not intended to provide conclusions. They were a presentation of what the WCR conclusions were based on. When they came across conflicting evidence, they resolved the conflicts where they could and gave reasons why they would accept one eyewitness account and dismiss the conflicting account. When they couldn't resolve the conflicts, they said so and gave their reasons why they could not reach a definitive conclusion. That's why they never concluded which of Oswald's 3 shots missed. The Z-film lacked sound and the witness accounts were contradictory.
"The Z-film lacked sound...." The WC did NOT watch the Z Film. If you're gonna applaud these boobs, you need to bone up on what they elected to do and Not do. They knew viewing the Z-Film would immediately put them in the Jackpot.
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"The Z-film lacked sound...." The WC did NOT watch the Z Film. If you're gonna applaud these boobs, you need to bone up on what they elected to do and Not do. They knew viewing the Z-Film would immediately put them in the Jackpot.
Where the hell did you get that idea. They even included individual frames. See CE888+.
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Where the hell did you get that idea. They even included individual frames. See CE888+.
Not only did they see the film they got Time/Life to send them the original to examine. It was reportedly much clearer than the copies the WC had. According to David Belin, he and others watched it hundreds of times, over multiple hours.
It was CE 396 and 398.
From Shenon's "A Cruel and Shocking Act."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13470415520/Keyfmxuu70qud34/Screenshot 2026-05-08 151825.jpg)
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I just saw on ebay lots of copies of the 26 volumes being sold with the lowest asking price being $2500. A set signed by 3 of the commissioners was asking $6500. I don't know why anyone would shell out thousands of dollars for something that is available online for free. They are also available on DVDs for reasonable prices. Maybe the sets have some collectible value but with so many in circulation, I doubt they have that much value as collectibles. Of course, if I could find a Carcano the same model as Oswald's, I'd probably be willing to shell out a several hundred dollars for it, so I sort of understand people wanting the original printed volumes.
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"The Z-film lacked sound...." The WC did NOT watch the Z Film. If you're gonna applaud these boobs, you need to bone up on what they elected to do and Not do. They knew viewing the Z-Film would immediately put them in the Jackpot.
BUMP
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BUMP
Didn't Commission counsel watch the film with the Governor and his wife and some of the doctors that treated him at Parkland? I seem to recall something like that.
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There is no indication in the record that the 7 members of the Warren Commission ever saw the Zapruder film during their investigation.
It was staff working alongside the FBI that examined the film in conjunction with the Nix film, which was later lost by the FBI.
The Z film was only shown on the stand for FBI Agent Shaneyfelt. Even then, the entire Commission was not present.
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Did you forget about the, "surgery to the head area", declaration that Lifton discovered buried inside the 26 Volumes? Your "pathologist" claim above is incorrect based on this being in the 26 volumes.
There was no surgery to the head area. This wrong statement was based on the observation that gauze squares had been packed in the large head wound. This was done at Parkland by the nurses to prevent getting blood and brain all over the coffin.
The body alteration 'theory' is a fantasy. Think about it for a second. If the conspirators can control the autopsy, wouldn't it be much easier to forge records based on the post-mortem examination than cutting into a dead body? The casket was never unattended I understand. One would also need a conspirator with some medical expertise to conduct the ghastly task.
It is unfortunate that some individuals involved at the Bethesda examination made up sensational stories that lead to silliness.
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BUMP
You didn't need to bump it. It was silly enough the first time you posted it.
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You didn't need to bump it. It was silly enough the first time you posted it.
As we see above, everyone knows....................But You. This is what research is ALL about. Knowing what you are talking about.
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Hello Everyone,
This is my first post - apologies if this topic has been broached before, I was unable to find it using the search feature.
I have followed and tracked the statements recorded by David Lifton and Doug Horne for many years. I feel I have stitched together the - admittedly complex and at times hard to believe - timeline of events concerning the casket(s) and body from Parkland to Bethesda.
The one piece of the puzzle which I cannot fit is based on an "off the record" conversation between David Lifton and Richard Lipsey where no recording equipment was permitted or used.
Lipsey stated - and Lifton directly quoted him - that JFK's left arm was raised like a "Heil Hitler salute" when he saw the body at Bethesda. Furthermore, Lipsey said that "Humes had to jump on the body and lower it with his knee."
Lifton has discussed this in a few online videos including this series -
Lifton proceeded to hypothesise why the left arm - and only the left arm - was raised. He implied that this was due to storage conditions for the body aboard the luggage compartment of Air Force 1.
Irrespective of how it was raised, if we take Lipsey at his word, we assume the arm was as raised as it was, I have a major problem.
What I know to be true is that the body was delivered inside a "zipped body bag" inside a "shipping casket" by helicopter, then black cadillac hearse to the back door of the Bethesday morgue at rougly 6:35pm.
Looking at both the zipped body bag (as cofirmed by Paul O'Connor at Bethesday) and the grey shipping casket (as confirmed by Jim Jenkins at Bethesda) I can't physically see how JFK's arm could have been raised at all. There just isn't the room inside the body bag NOR the casket.
I would warmly welcome this great community to challenge me on this and I am open to being convinced that this is simply a false statement from Lipsey - he is the only person as far as I know that stated this. Equally, I'm open to being told that the body bags have plenty of room for a raised arm - but logistically, I'm sceptical.
I'm looking forward to your comments.
Thank you.
So Lifton says that Lipsey told him completely off the record that JFK was doing the HH salute. As far as I know, Lipsey hasn't said this at any other time. Nor do I recall Humes, Boswell, Finck, Ebersole, O'Connor, Jenkins, Custer, Reed, Sibert, O'Neil, Stringer, Reibe, Boyers, Canada, Humes, Rudnicki, Wehle, Bird or anyone else present in the autopsy mentioning anything like that happening. I will refrain from advancing an explanation as to why Lifton said what he did, but it's very, very, very hard to believe that the other attendees would have missed something so obvious occurring. So, any carefully thinking person should find this a dubious claim.
As to the idea of getting the body into the cargo hold of either AF1 or AF2, some important information must be considered. First is that the cargo doors on a 707 are on the left side of the aircraft. On 11/22/1963 the left side of both AF and AF2 faced the terminal, the press, the police escort, and anyone else in the crowd watching the Presidential party boarding. The press pool 707 was directly behind AF2 and the space between AF1 and AF2 was easily visible from this aircraft....there are some extant photos taken from the parked press pool plane showing how open this area was. How would they have been able to get JFK's body directly into the cargo hold without it being blatantly obvious is a mystery that Lifton never could solve. Now, you might think that the body could have been taken aboard AF1 in the bronze casket where it would have been removed and placed in the cargo hold from the cabin, but that's also a bad idea. There is a way to get from the main cabin to the cargo hold directly below it. However....
In a Boeing C-137, the only way to get to the hold from the cabin is through a hatch underneath the navigator's desk in the cockpit, directly behind the pilot's seat. Cabin-to-hold transport of the body would require the body to be removed from the casket at the rear of the plane, then hauled all the way forward to the cockpit, then manhandled through the hatch into the avionics bay, then into the cargo hold behind the av bay. That's quite a feat to pull without being detected by the many people on the plane. And there is the similarly difficult problem of getting the body off the plane without being discovered in flagrante delicto.
How to get the body on and off the aircraft separately from the casket, while being discreet, is a major weakness of both Horn's and Lifton's theories.
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Not only did they see the film they got Time/Life to send them the original to examine. It was reportedly much clearer than the copies the WC had. According to David Belin, he and others watched it hundreds of times, over multiple hours.
It was CE 396 and 398.
From Shenon's "A Cruel and Shocking Act."
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13470415520/Keyfmxuu70qud34/Screenshot 2026-05-08 151825.jpg)
Thanks for posting that extract.
It was CE 396 and 398.
Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgbgjKZR/CE396-Zapruder-frame-Z188.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjTjbpw5/CE398-Zapruder-frame-Z230.jpg)
The Warren Commission in CE388 also published(except for the half dozen frames destroyed by LIFE Magazine)every single frame from Z171 though to Z334 and they are all the Full Frames that included the ghost images between the sprockets, they also included the graphic head shot.
And every frame is exactly what we saw published in Life Magazine a week later and up until what we see today.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN3Zvgnw/ce-885-zapruder-171-172.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpHvfB0b/ce-885-zapruder-313-314.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCX1ywYc/ce-885-zapruder-333-334.jpg)
BTW, according to decades later recall from Brugioni, the following briefing board was not the one he produced on the Saturday night but according to Hofeling, this briefing board came the day after and came directly from Hawkeyeworks(you know, the imaging processing unit "who could do anything", even better than Hollywood could do for the next three decades+). Anyway I digress, if the briefing board teams had access to the original Full Frame Zapruder Film and/or the highly questionable "faked version", according to Brugioni(who was the Duty Officer on the Saturday and Sunday?) had the "finest enlargement equipment in the World!" and wanted to deliver "the best quality we could give them", why on Earth wouldn't Brugioni deliver the entire frame, like what was printed in the 26 volumes? Unless of course they only had the SS copy which as we know didn't include the inter sprocket detail!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6Zf6MXV/Panel-IV-of-the-NARA-briefing-board-set.jpg)
What's also bizarre is Brugioni telling us that he was fully aware of the importance of the full film of the assassination and he is also fully aware that the tape he used to indicate which frame to highlight for his briefing board could damage the film, so he taped frames which were 10 frames away from what he deemed "important", there's no way that any sane professional technician who was aware of the historical significance of the original film would risk in any way, any section of the Zapruder original!! Unless of course Brugioni knew at the time that he had one of many duplicates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmm2KBY4/Brugoni-mark-the-peecious-film-with-tape.jpg)
JohnM
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John M - I haven't looked at the Brugioni Q/A in a while, but as I recall Brugioni admits to Not being a photo expert. He's an IMAGE EXPERT. He was the best at examining extremely high aerial photos/images, like the images taken by Gary Powers U-2 spy plane etc.
I'm not sure if Brugioni clearly understood what Horne meant when he asked about images "bleeding over". I thought Horne's question was poorly worded. Just using the word "bleed" or "bleeding" amidst the setting of an assassination has an immediate negative impact on the listener. I believe that Brugioni thought Horne was asking about the general quality of the images. Were the images "bleeding" or smearing or stretching to the (L) and into the area between the sprocket holes. I believe this is what Brugioni thought he was being asked about. I think he thought Horne was asking if the standard images were being duplicated/"bleeding" into the sprocket hole area.
With a case now 62+ years old, we need to stay away from accusing eyewitnesses of having "hazy" recollections or just being "foggy". Both sides can play this game until the cows come home. A legit eyewitness decades later does still have value. And an expert witness such a Brugioni, on the 1963 CIA payroll, holds even greater value.
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For completeness, sharing Richard Lipsey's interview with the HSCA here: https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm
Specifically about the "raised arm":
Q: Could you describe for us the nature of the damage to the front of the neck?
LIPSEY: No. I really couldn't. Because like I say, when we got it out, there was -- blood was all over the body. It was almost caked on. I remember they took a scrub brush and a pail. One of his arms, and if I've not mistaken, it was his left arm. You know, the way, I guess, after he died, finished the autopsy by that time and, rigor mortis had set in and one of his arms was slightly higher. Well, the guy's laying down and one of them was up a little bit. So when they started the autopsy I can remember, one of the doctors, when he was starting to clean the body up, got up on the table and physically got up on the table and put his knee down on his arm to hold it down -- to get it out of his way -- so he could scrub the rest of the body. So to say, to describe the hole to you, no. Because it was so messy and so much blood that I didn't, I never got close enough to get down and look at the wound itself.