JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Lance Payette on July 27, 2025, 09:50:28 PM
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Regardless of what I may think of David Lifton, Doug Horne and the whole "body alteration" thing, I found this brand-new documentary by Horne to be excellent, strictly in terms of a well-done documentary that clearly explains the issues surrounding the arrival(s) of JFK's body at Bethesda. I watched the entire two hours without being bored for a moment. "Body alteration" as the explanation strikes me as preposterous, but the events and the seemingly plausible recollections of them are truly puzzling. Since it appears there was in fact a decoy Navy ambulance, the confusion about two supposed entries of the Dallas coffin at 7:17 PM and 8 PM may be understandable. The 6:35 PM shipping casket in a black hearse is understandable if it had nothing to do with JFK, but if so the Boyajian report and several seemingly sincere peoples' recollections would have to be very wrong.
Reminds me of Roswell. Aliens traveling across the universe only to crash in New Mexico thunderstorms strikes me as inherently preposterous, but something very strange clearly happened in 1947.
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Thanks for posting that extremely new Doug Horne presentation. The new photos of the different ambulances at the Bethesda Morgue show that there is more JFK Assassination evidence out there. Horne used a lot of the Lifton evidence, but Horne like Lifton is still unable to address specifically WHEN/WHERE the JFK Body was removed from the ceremonial casket and then placed inside the cheap shipping casket. This has been "The $64,000 Question" for decades.
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Thanks for posting that extremely new Doug Horne presentation. The new photos of the different ambulances at the Bethesda Morgue show that there is more JFK Assassination evidence out there. Horne used a lot of the Lifton evidence, but Horne like Lifton is still unable to address specifically WHEN/WHERE the JFK Body was removed from the ceremonial casket and then placed inside the cheap shipping casket. This has been "The $64,000 Question" for decades.
Even if we are inclined to think JFK's body wasn't placed in a shipping casket, it's bizarre that there isn't a clear, unequivocal explanation of who was in the shipping casket and why those who insisted it was JFK had this belief. Alternatively, if he was placed in a shipping casket for transport/handling purposes, why isn't there a clear, unequivocal explanation of that. These genuine mysteries do fuel endless speculation.
I believe that a BIG part of the problem, on 11-22 and long after (including at the WC) was the over-concern about "protecting" the Kennedy family and JFK's image at the expense of historical truth. Given all that we now know about Joe Sr., JFK and Jackie, the fantasy was scarcely worth protecting. As far as the JFKA is concerned, they should have taken Jackie and Bobby out of the loop immediately.
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The case for the illicit early arrival of the body to Bethesda and for pre-autopsy surgery is compelling.
Lifton cracked this case wide open when he found strong evidence that the body was helicoptered to Bethesda and that it arrived well before the ceremonial casket arrived with Jackie. Doug Horne has solidified Lifton's case on this point. The fact that the body arrived in a military shipping casket, and not in the ceremonial casket, is confirmed by a number of sources.
Some of the ARRB disclosures relate to this case. Mortician Tom Robinson reported that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the official autopsy began and that the topside skull damage seen in the autopsy materials was done by Humes and Boswell, proving that Humes and Boswell were putting on a deceptive act during the autopsy when Humes said there had apparently been surgery to the head and when Boswell asked out-loud if anyone knew if the Parkland doctors had operated on the head.
The new photographic evidence presented by Horne is further proof that the body was in the morgue before the official arrival of the ceremonial casket with Jackie.
There is no innocent explanation for this manipulation and trickery.
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The case for the illicit early arrival of the body to Bethesda and for pre-autopsy surgery is compelling.
Lifton cracked this case wide open when he found strong evidence that the body was helicoptered to Bethesda and that it arrived well before the ceremonial casket arrived with Jackie. Doug Horne has solidified Lifton's case on this point. The fact that body arrived in a military shipping casket, and not in the ceremonial casket, is confirmed by a number of sources.
Some of the ARRB disclosures relate to this case. Mortician Tom Robinson reported that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the official autopsy began and that the topside skull damage seen in the autopsy materials was done by Humes and Boswell, proving that Humes and Boswell were putting on a deceptive act during the autopsy when Humes said there had apparently been surgery to the head and when Boswell asked out-loud if anyone knew if the Parkland doctors had operated on the head.
The new photographic evidence presented by Horne is further proof that the body was in the morgue before the official arrival of the ceremonial casket with Jackie.
There is no innocent explanation for this manipulation and trickery.
Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit. Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything. I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit. I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto." If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them. On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous. Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.
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Comments disabled. That's all you need to know.
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Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit. Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything. I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit. I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto." If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them. On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous. Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.
(2) "At some point JFK's body was actually placed in a Shipping Casket for CONVENIENCE....". Are you serious? The only thing "convenient" about shifting JFK's body into a shipping casket would be to clandestinely be able to move it around. Personnel at Parkland Hospital verify cleaning JFK's body, wrapping it in sheets, and then placing it inside the elaborate ceremonial casket. Where between Parkland Hospital and Andrews Air Force Base was the JFK Body moved from that elaborate ceremonial casket to the shipping casket? Answering that question breaks the case wide open. There is No Legit Reason for moving the body of JFK to a shipping casket. None.
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Michael, you do have a propensity to use terms like "know" and "proof" where they don't really fit.
No, I only use them when they fit the facts. The things I've described that we "know" are things that are documented in black and white in the ARRB materials.
Yes, there is some weird stuff that demands an explanation (one we will surely never have). Having watched and enjoyed Horne's presentation, I'm not confident it proves anything.
Then perhaps you are not inclined to follow the evidence where it leads when it leads to conclusions that you find too disturbing. I don't know how you could view the evidence that Horne presents and then say you don't think it proves anything. I think you mind is just locked shut against conspiracy.
I don't find it inconceivable that (1) the 6:35 PM casket entry had nothing to do with JFK
How can that be? The Marine Corps NCO who headed the security detail that was tasked to guard JFK's body, SGT Boyajian, wrote in his 11/26/63 report that the casket with the body arrived at 6:35 PM, a fact that he confirmed when interviewed by the ARRB, and a fact that Dennis David also confirmed.
or (2) at some point JFK's body actually was placed in a shipping casket for convenience but the charade of the body being in the more elaborate casket was maintained for Jackie's benefit.
Oh, come on. This makes no sense. When Lifton's book came out, the lone-gunman camp and government officials who were involved in the handling of the body swore up and down that the body never left the ceremonial casket until it was removed in the morgue minutes before the autopsy began. Even after the ARRB disclosures, this is still the position of nearly all WC defenders.
There would have been no "convenience" in moving the body into a shipping casket. How about the body bag that the body was zipped into in the shipping casket? What would have been "convenient" about putting the body in a body bag when it had already wrapped in sheets in Dallas?
I do find it pretty much inconceivable that, immediately after the assassination, ANYONE was thinking in terms of "The body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will scream conspiracy. We gotta do something about that, pronto."
Just HUH??? This would have been the natural, logical, sensible reaction of the plotters in response to finding out that things had not gone according to plan in Dallas. Their first, most urgent objective would have been to get the body out of the Dallas casket and into the hands of military doctors who could try to remove as much damning evidence as possible before the official autopsy began, military doctors who were under orders, who were told this was a matter of national security, and who were threatened with court martial if they talked.
If this were true, at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington would have to have been in on the scam, and another 50 would have had to have been provided with explanations that made sense to them.
Where do you get this? Why would "at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington" have had to be in on the scam? This is not what happened. Only a small number of people knew what was going on with the body. The others only saw isolated incidents and had no idea how what they saw related to anything else.
You seem to be forgetting, or perhaps don't know, that every witness who had anything to do with the autopsy, even if they did not see the autopsy, were forced to sign non-disclosure agreements that threatened court martial if violated. Have you not read the ARRB materials?
On top of which, the 6:35 PM shipping casket entry would have been observed by NOBODY. The conspiratorial explanation is just inherently preposterous.
That is just utter nonsense. How in the devil would the 6:35 arrival have been "observed by nobody"? What about the Marine Corps security detail, headed by SGT Boyajian? It was their job to guard the body. They were there when the casket was brought to the morgue's rear landing area at 6:35, and Boyajian reported this, in writing, just three days later and also confirmed it when interviewed by the ARRB.
Weird stuff that demands an explanation, yes. Proof of a body-alteration conspiracy, no.
I suspect that even if a death-bed recording of Humes admitting to the body's early arrival and to pre-autopsy surgery surfaced, you would say he must have been delusional from pain and medication and that his admission was worthless.
How do you explain mortician Tom Robinson's testimony that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the autopsy began and that the topside damage to the head was made by Humes and Boswell? How do you explain Humes and Boswell's charade of saying there appeared to have been surgery to the head before they got the body?
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(2) "At some point JFK's body was actually placed in a Shipping Casket for CONVENIENCE....". Are you serious? The only thing "convenient" about shifting JFK's body into a shipping casket would be to clandestinely be able to move it around. Personnel at Parkland Hospital verify cleaning JFK's body, wrapping it in sheets, and then placing it inside the elaborate ceremonial casket. Where between Parkland Hospital and Andrews Air Force Base was the JFK Body moved from that elaborate ceremonial casket to the shipping casket? Answering that question breaks the case wide open. There is No Legit Reason for moving the body of JFK to a shipping casket. None.
Well, no, shipping caskets were standard operating procedure in the military precisely because they made shipping and handling a great deal easier. I don't find it inconceivable at all that a decision might have been made to transfer the body to a shipping casket for precisely this reason and to withhold this unpleasant fact from Jackie. Where and when this occurred - or if it occurred - I have no idea. In the abstract, it is far more likely than the body-alteration scenario. Good grief, if body-alteration were required, how difficult would it have been simply to leave the body in the Dallas casket and explain that the autopsy would be delayed a bit while the doctors were "getting things ready"? The Horne/Lifton scenario simply makes no sense.
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Comments disabled. That's all you need to know.
FWIW, comments are disabled on all of Horne's videos. I subscribe to a couple of channels of highly reputable organizations where the comments are disabled. When the subject matter is controversial and likely to bring nutcases out of the woodwork, disabling comments doesn't strike me as unreasonable or suspicious. FOX allows comments and CNN doesn't - and when you read the comments on FOX (including mine), you start to see the wisdom of CNN's decision!
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No, I only use them when they fit the facts. The things I've described that we "know" are things that are documented in black and white in the ARRB materials.
Then perhaps you are not inclined to follow the evidence where it leads when it leads to conclusions that you find too disturbing. I don't know how you could view the evidence that Horne presents and then say you don't think it proves anything. I think you mind is just locked shut against conspiracy.
How can that be? The Marine Corps NCO who headed the security detail that was tasked to guard JFK's body, SGT Boyajian, wrote in his 11/26/63 report that the casket with the body arrived at 6:35 PM, a fact that he confirmed when interviewed by the ARRB, and a fact that Dennis David also confirmed.
Oh, come on. This makes no sense. When Lifton's book came out, the lone-gunman camp and government officials who were involved in the handling of the body swore up and down that the body never left the ceremonial casket until it was removed in the morgue minutes before the autopsy began. Even after the ARRB disclosures, this is still the position of nearly all WC defenders.
There would have been no "convenience" in moving the body into a shipping casket. How about the body bag that the body was zipped into in the shipping casket? What would have been "convenient" about putting the body in a body bag when it had already wrapped in sheets in Dallas?
Just HUH??? This would have been the natural, logical, sensible reaction of the plotters in response to finding out that things had not gone according to plan in Dallas. Their first, most urgent objective would have been to get the body out of the Dallas casket and into the hands of military doctors who could try to remove as much damning evidence as possible before the official autopsy began, military doctors who were under orders, who were told this was a matter of national security, and who were threatened with court martial if they talked.
Where do you get this? Why would "at least 25 people in Dallas and Washington" have had to be in on the scam? This is not what happened. Only a small number of people knew what was going on with the body. The others only saw isolated incidents and had no idea how what they saw related to anything else.
You seem to be forgetting, or perhaps don't know, that every witness who had anything to do with the autopsy, even if they did not see the autopsy, were forced to sign non-disclosure agreements that threatened court martial if violated. Have you not read the ARRB materials?
That is just utter nonsense. How in the devil would the 6:35 arrival have been "observed by nobody"? What about the Marine Corps security detail, headed by SGT Boyajian? It was their job to guard the body. They were there when the casket was brought to the morgue's rear landing area at 6:35, and Boyajian reported this, in writing, just three days later and also confirmed it when interviewed by the ARRB.
I suspect that even if a death-bed recording of Humes admitting to the body's early arrival and to pre-autopsy surgery surfaced, you would say he must have been delusional from pain and medication and that his admission was worthless.
How do you explain mortician Tom Robinson's testimony that he saw Humes sawing the skull before the autopsy began and that the topside damage to the head was made by Humes and Boswell? How do you explain Humes and Boswell's charade of saying there appeared to have been surgery to the head before they got the body?
Excellent post, albeit not for the reasons you think. You illustrate the conspiracy mindset to the nth degree.
Because you are a CT zealot, anyone who does not immediately agree with you is, ipso facto, an equally closed-minded LN zealot. In actuality, I would be DELIGHTED to encounter a genuinely plausible, evidence-based conspiracy theory that caused me to say "Well, I'll be danged. Oswald didn't act alone." DELIGHTED, I tell you!
As with all CT zealots, you can't see the forest for the trees. You posit a conspiracy so clumsy and inept that, immediately after the assassination, the conspirators KNOW the body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will reveal their designated patsy wasn't the lone gunman. How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, did they allow this to occur?
Some of them, apparently, were right there at Parkland and in a position to make sure the Parkland doctors and local coroner never saw the revealing wounds and fragments. Who were they, and how did they arrange this? How could they be sure of success? How could they control what took place in Trauma Room 1 and thereafter? How could they be sure LBJ or Jackie wouldn't be agreeable to a Texas autopsy? How could they be sure the body would be transported to Bethesda rather than Walter Reed?
OK, the Bethesda medical team is standing by to do the necessary body alterations. When were they brought into the loop, and by whom? They ALL agreed to this without reservation? All of these folks risked EXECUTION for ... what?
OK, between Dallas and Bethesda the conspirators had to get the body into a shipping casket. Why - why add this layer of complexity? When and how was this done, unobserved by anyone except those connected with the conspiracy? Was there already a shipping casket on Air Force One, or did the surreptitious transfer occur at Andrews? Why not just take the Dallas casket into Bethesda and buy yourself 45 minutes with the excuse that the conspiratorial doctors were "getting things ready."
How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, were all the assorted non-conspirators allowed to observe the shenanigans at 6:35, 7:17 and 8:00? Why were Boyajian and Dennis told anything about JFK - why was not everyone connected with the 6:35 arrival told it was Lt. Fuzzy, who had just been killed in a car wreck (even if they had to kill Lt. Fuzzy as part of the plan)?
I'm just reacting off the top of my head. I haven't even thought through all the insane risks your scenario would entail.
As is always the case with CTers - ALWAYS the case, I repeat - you posit activities in which the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling, 40 IQ stooges at multiple critical points in your scenario, from Dealey Plaza to Bethesda. You cherry-pick evidence that even I will acknowledge is puzzling and weave it into a narrative that simply MAKES NO SENSE (unless, I repeat, the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling 40 IQ stooges who somehow found jobs in the Secret Service, FBI, military and White House).
It all makes sense to you because - wait for it - you are Exhibit A for the conspiracy-prone mindset.
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For those who might be new to this issue, here are some helpful sources that explain the importance of the new evidence that Horne has uncovered and that present an overview of the evidence that the body was illicitly brought to the morgue before Jackie arrived with the Dallas casket:
Military Fraud in the JFK Autopsy
https://www.fff.org/2018/09/14/military-fraud-in-the-jfk-autopsy/
A Fascinating Development in Doug Horne’s New Documentary
https://www.fff.org/2025/07/28/a-fascinating-development-in-doug-hornes-new-documentary/
Douglas Horne, Inside the ARRB (Part IV), review by Dr. David Mantik
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/horne-douglas-inside-the-arrb-part-iv
ARRB Master Set of Medical Exhibits
https://history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_med-exhibits.htm
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Well, no, shipping caskets were standard operating procedure in the military precisely because they made shipping and handling a great deal easier. I don't find it inconceivable at all that a decision might have been made to transfer the body to a shipping casket for precisely this reason and to withhold this unpleasant fact from Jackie. Where and when this occurred - or if it occurred - I have no idea. In the abstract, it is far more likely than the body-alteration scenario. Good grief, if body-alteration were required, how difficult would it have been simply to leave the body in the Dallas casket and explain that the autopsy would be delayed a bit while the doctors were "getting things ready"? The Horne/Lifton scenario simply makes no sense.
Your "getting things ready" excuse is exactly what they did to FBI Agents Sibert & O'Neil to keep them out of the morgue room where the JFK Body was. If it was "standard operating procedure" to place the JFK Body inside a Shipping Casket, why wouldn't they just say that and put all the hoopla to bed? Why? Because NOBODY would believe that BS: Think about it.
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For those who might be new to this issue, here are some helpful sources that explain the importance of the new evidence that Horne has uncovered and that present an overview of the evidence that the body was illicitly brought to the morgue before Jackie arrived with the Dallas casket:
Military Fraud in the JFK Autopsy
https://www.fff.org/2018/09/14/military-fraud-in-the-jfk-autopsy/
A Fascinating Development in Doug Horne’s New Documentary
https://www.fff.org/2025/07/28/a-fascinating-development-in-doug-hornes-new-documentary/
Douglas Horne, Inside the ARRB (Part IV), review by Dr. David Mantik
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/horne-douglas-inside-the-arrb-part-iv
ARRB Master Set of Medical Exhibits
https://history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_med-exhibits.htm
For those not inclined to review the links, the theory is that LBJ was in charge. Left open is the question of whether he knew of the need for body alteration before the JFKA or learned of it post-JFKA. ("There's been a slight screw-up, Mr. President. We had to shoot JFK from the front and, well, the body doesn't exactly look like our patsy did it. If you're OK with it, we're pretty sure some military medical types in Washington will agree to, er, fudge the body a bit to conform to the patsy thing. Yeah, Mr. P., it's an effing mess, but these things happen. We just need you to make sure the body leaves here pronto and goes to Bethesda. The same screw-ups responsible for all this will take it from there, and they promise they'll do better this time. Yes, you are correct, sir, it's an effing mess.")
The theory is apparently that the shipping casket originated in Washington, at least that's what I gather. JFK's body was somehow transferred from Air Force One at Andrews to a mystery helicopter and taken from the helicopter to the Bethesda morgue in a black hearse rather than the obvious choice of a Navy ambulance. I have yet to read a convincing explanation as to when and how JFK's body was removed from the Dallas casket at Andrews and why the Dallas casket seemed to be rather heavy for an empty casket as it was offloaded from Air Force One (a conspirator inside as part of the plan, perhaps?). The CT narratives that I have read ignore this critical detail, focusing on events after 6:35 PM. Yes, you are correct, Mr. President, it was an effing mess.
I'm not going to wade into this any deeper, but I did note that Boyajian's report says his security detail was ordered to report to Admiral Galloway at 5 PM and arrived at Bethesda at 6 PM. It was a security detail, not a body or casket detail. He says "the casket" arrived at 6:35 but never says it was JFK's casket. When interviewed by Horne in 1997, he didn't remember the arrival of the casket at all. Given the choice between (1) a massive, risk-filled, near-insane body alteration conspiracy and (2) Boyajian and others simply being sincerely mistaken that the 6:35 casket was JFK's, I'm going to go with #2 unless and until there is definite proof of at least some compelling aspect of #1.
And that's all I have to say about that. As with all aspects of Conspiracy Gospel, it's a bottomless rabbit hole to nowhere. I did enjoy Horne's documentary, however, and it gave me a much clearer understanding of the physical aspects of Bethesda. And, yes, I still regard his evidence as puzzling.
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There's the phone call between LBJ and Hoover the morning after. The 2 got on the same page right then. 1 Shooter. Done deal.
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Although I did enjoy Horne's documentary and think it was well done, I am no longer puzzled:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4435.0.html#google_vignette
Now I understand why body alteration fans conveniently ignore the rather critical questions as to how JFK's body got from Air Force One onto a mystery helicopter, into a metal shipping casket, and on its way to Bethesda in a black hearse.
The answer: It didn't.
You're welcome. Next factoid, please.
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So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're favorite game is "Twister"?
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So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're (sic) favorite game is "Twister"?
Storing,
It seems to me that your only game is "Hallelujah! I'm a zombified-by-KGB-disinformation 'useful idiot' for life!"
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So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're favorite game is "Twister"?
Please, tell me you're not really this dense. Weisberg determined it was SOP to send a shipping casket to every military autopsy. The obvious reason is that the remains would typically be sent to a funeral home after the autopsy. Most bodies do not arrive for military autopsies in $3000 (in 1963 dollars) ceremonial caskets from Dallas - duh. Most would not be suitable for placement in a burial casket until after the embalming. If the shipping casket is not needed - OK, no big deal. The shipping casket was delivered by MDW to Bethesda because the expectation was that JFK's body would go to Gawler's for embalming. At the "last minute" (Hagan), a decision was made that the embalming would be at Bethesda. The shipping casket was not needed, no big deal. Several people saw the shipping casket and assumed, wrongly, that this was the arrival of JFK's body. No big deal, except in Conspiracy World.
Perhaps return to your Huge Gates nonsense because you're not even good at Whack-a-Mole on this thread.
I will close here by asking folks to look at Horne's discussion of the Gawler "First Call Sheet" beginning at roughly 18:20 of the video. Horne notes the "metal shipping casket" statement on the Call Sheet and explains that Hagan confirmed this term meant a cheap, basic transit casket. WOW!
Horne DOESN'T tell us that Hagan, in two separate interviews, told Horne that he had never seen the casket, had only been told JFK arrived in a "metal" casket, had merely assumed it was a transit casket, and had no idea JFK had actually arrived in a "ceremonial" bronze casket costing $3000 ($31,546 today).
In short, the "First Call Sheet" is irrelevant to the shipping casket issue and Horne is a fundamentally dishonest con artist.
Alas, "fundamentally dishonest con artist" describes many of the most high-profile conspiracy theorists. Whatever their agenda may be, historical truth is not part of it.
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Please, tell me you're not really this dense. Weisberg determined it was SOP to send a shipping casket to every military autopsy. The obvious reason is that the remains would typically be sent to a funeral home after the autopsy. Most bodies do not arrive for military autopsies in $3000 (in 1963 dollars) ceremonial caskets from Dallas - duh. Most would not be suitable for placement in a burial casket until after the embalming. If the shipping casket is not needed - OK, no big deal. The shipping casket was delivered by MDW to Bethesda because the expectation was that JFK's body would go to Gawler's for embalming. At the "last minute" (Hagan), a decision was made that the embalming would be at Bethesda. The shipping casket was not needed, no big deal. Several people saw the shipping casket and assumed, wrongly, that this was the arrival of JFK's body. No big deal, except in Conspiracy World.
Perhaps return to your Huge Gates nonsense because you're not even good at Whack-a-Mole on this thread.
I will close here by asking folks to look at Horne's discussion of the Gawler "First Call Sheet" beginning at roughly 18:20 of the video. Horne notes the "metal shipping casket" statement on the Call Sheet and explains that Hagan confirmed this term meant a cheap, basic transit casket. WOW!
Horne DOESN'T tell us that Hagan, in two separate interviews, told Horne that he had never seen the casket, had only been told JFK arrived in a "metal" casket, had merely assumed it was a transit casket, and had no idea JFK had actually arrived in a "ceremonial" bronze casket costing $3000 ($31,546 today).
In short, the "First Call Sheet" is irrelevant to the shipping casket issue and Horne is a fundamentally dishonest con artist.
Alas, "fundamentally dishonest con artist" describes many of the most high-profile conspiracy theorists. Whatever their agenda may be, historical truth is not part of it.
Distortion by omission is prevalent in most of the ideas presented by the CT community. The root of the issue is that people will usually believe what they want to believe (ie: that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK). The people who want to believe in a conspiracy will almost always just overlook the omissions even after the omissions are pointed out to them. Maybe one day when they decide they want some answers (instead of more and more questions) they will change their attitudes and begin to seek reality instead of more and more intrigue.
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Distortion by omission is prevalent in most of the ideas presented by the CT community. The root of the issue is that people will usually believe what they want to believe (ie: that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK). The people who want to believe in a conspiracy will almost always just overlook the omissions even after the omissions are pointed out to them. Maybe one day when they decide they want some answers (instead of more and more questions) they will change their attitudes and begin to seek reality instead of more and more intrigue.
Yep, that summarizes the main problem dealing with them, with any conspiracist (this, 9/11, whatever). We see it with this casket claim, with the claims of alteration of the Zapruder film, with the Tippit shooting, the autopsy, the Mexico City visit (my favorite).
The problem is that it takes 30 seconds to make a conspiracy claim and then 30 minutes to fix it, to add the omissions. As we see here. It's hard to "unring" the conspiracy bell especially with the JFK assassination and particularly during moments when a sort of conspiracy fever is prevalent (e.g., during the Watergate/Vietnam period or now). We just saw this again with the news reports about Oswald in New Orleans. The corrections are always chasing the errors.
And yes, I know there are conspiracies and I know governments lie. Could conspiracists please stop with these responses?
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Yep, that summarizes the main problem dealing with them, with any conspiracist (this, 9/11, whatever). We see it with this casket claim, with the claims of alteration of the Zapruder film, with the Tippit shooting, the autopsy, the Mexico City visit (my favorite).
The problem is that it takes 30 seconds to make a conspiracy claim and then 30 minutes to fix it. As we see here. It's hard to "unring" the conspiracy bell especially with the JFK assassination and particularly during moments when a sort of conspiracy fever is prevalent (e.g., during the Watergate/Vietnam period or now). We just saw this again with the news reports about Oswald in New Orleans. The corrections are always chasing the errors.
And yes, I know there are conspiracies and I know governments lie. Could conspiracists please stop with these responses?
Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.
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Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.
They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.
The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.
Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.
Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.
Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.
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Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:
Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.
Golly!
The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)
The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.
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They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.
The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.
Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.
Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.
Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.
So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation? That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place. I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange.
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So you're saying You had already seen ALL of the image evidence that Horne included in his presentation?
Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.
That Bethesda Morgue Dock along with the Bethesda Grounds itself is a mystery to almost everyone that has not been physically inside that place.
Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.
I had previously seen a hand drawn sketch of the Morgue + Bench Seating but that is totally unreliable. You are permitting the messenger/Horne to poison your appraisal of the evidence he brought with him. I thought it was strange that any ambulance would be forced to back down a narrow alleyway to access that Morgue Dock. And then they had to load the coffin onto a scissors type lift and then Physically LIFT the coffin up onto the morgue dock. There was No Ramp, only Stairs leading up to the Morgue Dock. And from what we could see, the door leading into the Morgue was just that. A standard door/standard width. (And we know the problem they had getting the JFK Coffin inside AF1). This arcane access process makes me wonder if there was another way/regular way for an ambulance to access the Bethesda Morgue. The avenue of access we saw would consistently require at least 4 people to muscle a coffin inside the morgue. To me, this looked strange. Very strange.
OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.
I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.
The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.
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For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."
(https://i.postimg.cc/DvhNfsmC/JJJ-Location-of-old-and-new-morgue-Bethesda.png)
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Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:
Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.
Golly!
The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)
The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.
I tried listening to him, but after a few minutes he was slurring words and seemed confused.
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Excellent post, albeit not for the reasons you think. You illustrate the conspiracy mindset to the nth degree.
Because you are a CT zealot, anyone who does not immediately agree with you is, ipso facto, an equally closed-minded LN zealot. In actuality, I would be DELIGHTED to encounter a genuinely plausible, evidence-based conspiracy theory that caused me to say "Well, I'll be danged. Oswald didn't act alone." DELIGHTED, I tell you!
As with all CT zealots, you can't see the forest for the trees. You posit a conspiracy so clumsy and inept that, immediately after the assassination, the conspirators KNOW the body is riddled with wounds and bullet fragments that will reveal their designated patsy wasn't the lone gunman. How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, did they allow this to occur?
Some of them, apparently, were right there at Parkland and in a position to make sure the Parkland doctors and local coroner never saw the revealing wounds and fragments. Who were they, and how did they arrange this? How could they be sure of success? How could they control what took place in Trauma Room 1 and thereafter? How could they be sure LBJ or Jackie wouldn't be agreeable to a Texas autopsy? How could they be sure the body would be transported to Bethesda rather than Walter Reed?
OK, the Bethesda medical team is standing by to do the necessary body alterations. When were they brought into the loop, and by whom? They ALL agreed to this without reservation? All of these folks risked EXECUTION for ... what?
OK, between Dallas and Bethesda the conspirators had to get the body into a shipping casket. Why - why add this layer of complexity? When and how was this done, unobserved by anyone except those connected with the conspiracy? Was there already a shipping casket on Air Force One, or did the surreptitious transfer occur at Andrews? Why not just take the Dallas casket into Bethesda and buy yourself 45 minutes with the excuse that the conspiratorial doctors were "getting things ready."
How and why, other than sheer Three Stooges ineptitude, were all the assorted non-conspirators allowed to observe the shenanigans at 6:35, 7:17 and 8:00? Why were Boyajian and Dennis told anything about JFK - why was not everyone connected with the 6:35 arrival told it was Lt. Fuzzy, who had just been killed in a car wreck (even if they had to kill Lt. Fuzzy as part of the plan)?
I'm just reacting off the top of my head. I haven't even thought through all the insane risks your scenario would entail.
As is always the case with CTers - ALWAYS the case, I repeat - you posit activities in which the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling, 40 IQ stooges at multiple critical points in your scenario, from Dealey Plaza to Bethesda. You cherry-pick evidence that even I will acknowledge is puzzling and weave it into a narrative that simply MAKES NO SENSE (unless, I repeat, the conspirators were bumbling, fumbling 40 IQ stooges who somehow found jobs in the Secret Service, FBI, military and White House).
It all makes sense to you because - wait for it - you are Exhibit A for the conspiracy-prone mindset.
Was Kennedy placed in another "decoy" casket? I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there. Was there surgery before the actual autopsy? I'd say possible, not a big conspiracy, but Bobby Kennedy thru Burkley could have requested the brain removed. We know he was sensitive to having it displayed, and who would tell him no?
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For those who care - and you know who you are - the Bethesda morgue in which JFK was autopsied was the "new" morgue opened in early 1963. The drawing below shows the location of the "old" morgue, which was in a basement. I found this at the Ed Forum. One literally cannot believe the absurdities upon absurdities surrounding the body alteration theory. There were two autopsies, one in the old morgue and one in the new ... no, wait, one of the autopsies was at Walter Reed ... no, wait, one of the autopsies wasn't even JFK (what???). That anyone actually entertains this nonsense - and many people clearly do - is almost frightening. I mean, I have to drive on the highway with people who believe this stuff. What if my doctor or dentist does? EEK! I'm not sure I even want a plumber who says, "Yeah, I'm a body alteration guy. Lifton nailed it."
(https://i.postimg.cc/DvhNfsmC/JJJ-Location-of-old-and-new-morgue-Bethesda.png)
That "New" Bethesda Morgue also included state-of-the-art audio/visual equipment. This is where Lt. Commander Pitzer enters the story.
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I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there.
Thumb1:
Agreed. JFK was already having a real bad day, imagine the horror of being killed twice!
JohnM
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Negatory. It was as new to me as to Horne. I'm saying it was obviously out there, online, if anyone had cared to look. Surely some researchers were aware of all the materials.
Which is why I said and still say that Horne's documentary is excellent in that respect, as an orientation to Bethesda.
OK, it looked strange to you. It didn't look strange to me. Even Horne's most gung-ho witnesses didn't suggest there was anything strange or that there was some other access to the morgue. This was just business as usual at Bethesda. The team that included Schwartz in the pickup truck knew exactly where to go because that's what was done with bodies at Bethesda; the ambulance driver got lost because he was a Secret Service agent unfamiliar with Bethesda.
I have no problem at all with Horne's evidence, apart from the fact that he was less than candid about the Gawler's Call Sheet and Sorell Schwartz. I'm sure some of the other evidence was skewed toward the CT perspective, but overall the documentary was well-done and helpful.
The documentary is a sales job for the inherently silly body alteration theory. It didn't take Harold Weisberg or Little Old Me a great deal of thought or research to realize there was an alternative theory for the shipping casket that is approximately 1000X more plausible and evidence based. On top of which, the alternative theory does not have to explain how the body got off Air Force One with no one noticing, onto a mystery helicopter and into a mystery hearse, accompanied by mystery personnel - a rather critical aspect of the body alteration theory that Horne completely ignores. Whereas you insisted Horne's shipping casket tale blows the case wide open, I believe the alternative explanation pretty well blows Horne out of the water.
Just because something might be "on line" does not mean it is known. Anymore than a buried treasure is known. Hence the need for a "treasure map" to find it. Those autopsy dock photos are very important. And remember that the story goes that when the honor guard inside the pickup truck found the ambulance, it was completely empty. No casket, nobody even attending to the vehicle. And Prof Schwartz added that the Ambulance Hood Was COLD. That vehicle had been sitting there a good while. This empty/stone cold "ambulance" could have been part of the decoy too. Tie these guys up to further prevent their interrupting the arrival of the empty casket elsewhere back there. I am still unsure how they might even get that casket inside the morgue. The door into the morgue that we see is a standard door/standard width. I have a hunch these guys in the pickup truck were delayed 5 ways to Sunday.
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Holy cow, I had thought the graphic of the new and old Bethesda morgues was from an old Ed Forum thread. No, it's from a current, active one. From the discussion, this is the sort of thing body alteration folks say with a straight face:
"What I think happened at the old morgue in Bldg 2 was the removal of the second brain, which was 'prepared' that afternoon to show a shot from the rear to support the lone assassin (Oswald) fake story. I think that brain was removed in Bldg 2 old morgue, and transported to the new morgue in Bldg 8, and placed inside the skull of JFK, and it later just 'fell out' into Humes hand without the need for a craniotomy using saw and scalpels. JFKs brain had been prior removed during the period after 6:35."
WHAT???
The conspiracy was so utterly inept that this level of cover-up was required? Why not just plan a sane conspiracy from the get-go?
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I tried listening to him, but after a few minutes he was slurring words and seemed confused.
Hardly. He's 86 years old. His recollections of the night of 11-22 are remarkably clear and coherent.
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Was Kennedy placed in another "decoy" casket? I'd say yes for security purposes it makes sense nothing really abnormal there. Was there surgery before the actual autopsy? I'd say possible, not a big conspiracy, but Bobby Kennedy thru Burkley could have requested the brain removed. We know he was sensitive to having it displayed, and who would tell him no?
The security concern related to press coverage and sensitivity toward the Kennedy family. Hence, a decoy ambulance might make sense. There was no concern about JFK's body, which was rather secure inside the massive Dallas casket. Placing JFK's body in a decoy casket would make precisely zero sense. Who would have told Bobby and JFK no if they had requested the removal of the brain before the official autopsy? Oh, a WHOLE LOT of people, I would imagine. I would also imagine that request would not have remained unknown for 60+ years. It has remained unknown because it's imaginary.
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The security concern related to press coverage and sensitivity toward the Kennedy family. Hence, a decoy ambulance might make sense. There was no concern about JFK's body, which was rather secure inside the massive Dallas casket. Placing JFK's body in a decoy casket would make precisely zero sense. Who would have told Bobby and JFK no if they had requested the removal of the brain before the official autopsy? Oh, a WHOLE LOT of people, I would imagine. I would also imagine that request would not have remained unknown for 60+ years. It has remained unknown because it's imaginary.
This ALL started with the theft of the JFK Body from Dallas. That was the hard part. This other stuff was Duck Soup after that.
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This ALL started with the theft of the JFK Body from Dallas. That was the hard part. This other stuff was Duck Soup after that.
JFK's body wasn't stolen from Dallas.
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The security concern related to press coverage and sensitivity toward the Kennedy family. Hence, a decoy ambulance might make sense. There was no concern about JFK's body, which was rather secure inside the massive Dallas casket. Placing JFK's body in a decoy casket would make precisely zero sense. Who would have told Bobby and JFK no if they had requested the removal of the brain before the official autopsy? Oh, a WHOLE LOT of people, I would imagine. I would also imagine that request would not have remained unknown for 60+ years. It has remained unknown because it's imaginary.
You guys continue proffering this security issue which mandated decoy ambulances being used inside Bethesda. If "security" was really an issue, they would have clamped down on things at Andrews Air Force Base when the ceremonial coffin with JFK's body allegedly inside it was unloaded from the AF1 into the ambulance. But this did Not happen at Andrews. Why? Because they wanted The Press to follow that Ambulance/Empty Coffin. And The Press fell for it. Bit down hard. That ambulance with JFK's alleged body inside it sat for roughly 15 minutes in front of the Hospital after Jackie got out of it. Who would do this to the actual body of a dead POTUS? All of this was a decoy. All a decoy to permit the shipping casket with the body of JFK inside it to be unloaded, brought into the morgue and then hastily worked. Everyone was Focused on that dummy ambulance that left Andrews and then SAT STONE STILL for roughly 15 minutes in front of the hospital. Nobody treats the body of a dead POTUS this way.