Prayer Woman

[Alan Ford]

Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'

[Alan Ford]

Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'

If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:

[Alan Ford]

If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:

Now! What happens next?

Let's hand over to Mr James Jarman (HSCA interview 9.25.77):

JARMAN: Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
JARMAN: And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

If that's Mr Lovelady near the bottom west of the steps in Darnell, then we can work out the sequence of events:

-------Officer Baker rushes past Mr Lovelady and up the steps
-------Mr Lovelady turns around to look up after him
-------He sees the police officer grabbing hold of Mr Oswald (whom Mr Lovelady notices now for the first time) and pulling him into the vestibule, shouting, 'Do you work here?'
-------Mr Lovelady misunderstands the encounter------Mr Oswald is not 'coming out the door', he's been there all along!; and all Officer Baker is doing is seeking assistance from the first man he can grab
-------Mr Truly, meanwhile, has followed Officer Baker up the steps... he offers to give the police officer the assistance he is seeking ('Yes he works here, officer, but I'm the building manager, I'll help you').

Now!

Mr Lovelady's mistaken interpretation of this exchange between Mr Oswald and Officer Baker-----------i.e. he thinks the officer has aggressively 'stopped' Mr Oswald from leaving the building and Mr Truly has stepped in to vouch for his employee------------is exactly the story that DPD will be telling the press about later this day:

Oswald was stopped by one of our officers as he tried to leave the building, but the officer, who was rushing into the building, let him go when the building manager told him Oswald worked there.

Friends, the coincidence between Mr Jarman's account and the first-day DPD line is no coincidence at all!

---------------> Mr Oswald went out to watch the Presidential Parade.
---------------> He was standing beside Mr Shelley as the President was passing.
---------------> Just after the shooting, a police officer did come running in to the 1st floor, grabbing Mr Oswald and pulling him into the vestibule.

This is the real 'lunchroom incident', and Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz all about it!

[Tim Nickerson]

Now! What happens next?

Let's hand over to Mr James Jarman (HSCA interview 9.25.77):

JARMAN: Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
JARMAN: And, Oswald was coming out the door and he said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

If that's Mr Lovelady near the bottom west of the steps in Darnell, then we can work out the sequence of events:

-------Officer Baker rushes past Mr Lovelady and up the steps
-------Mr Lovelady turns around to look up after him
-------He sees the police officer grabbing hold of Mr Oswald (whom Mr Lovelady notices now for the first time) and pulling him into the vestibule, shouting, 'Do you work here?'
-------Mr Lovelady misunderstands the encounter------Mr Oswald is not 'coming out the door', he's been there all along!; and all Officer Baker is doing is seeking assistance from the first man he can grab
-------Mr Truly, meanwhile, has followed Officer Baker up the steps... he offers to give the police officer the assistance he is seeking ('Yes he works here, officer, but I'm the building manager, I'll help you').

Now!

Mr Lovelady's mistaken interpretation of this exchange between Mr Oswald and Officer Baker-----------i.e. he thinks the officer has aggressively 'stopped' Mr Oswald from leaving the building and Mr Truly has stepped in to vouch for his employee------------is exactly the story that DPD will be telling the press about later this day:

Oswald was stopped by one of our officers as he tried to leave the building, but the officer, who was rushing into the building, let him go when the building manager told him Oswald worked there.

Friends, the coincidence between Mr Jarman's account and the first-day DPD line is no coincidence at all!

---------------> Mr Oswald went out to watch the Presidential Parade.
---------------> He was standing beside Mr Shelley as the President was passing.
---------------> Just after the shooting, a police officer did come running in to the 1st floor, grabbing Mr Oswald and pulling him into the vestibule.

This is the real 'lunchroom incident', and Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz all about it!

"B" is not Otis Williams. "E" is Otis Williams.

[Larry Trotter]

If these IDs of the people in the Altgens photo and Wiegman film are sound (apart, of course, from Ms Stanton, whom we know to be to Mr Frazier's left at this time)-------------



-------------then we can understand that, between Hughes and Wiegman,
A) Mr Lovelady, order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and near the centre of the stairway
B) Mr Shelley, in reaction to Mr Lovelady's movement and/or in order to follow the motorcade down Elm St, has stepped back to a higher level and a little further east.

Prayer Man (Mr Oswald) remains in the same position from Hughes to Wiegman.

From Wiegman to Darnell, he will remain in the same spot, though his posture may well change:

Of the IdentifiedPersonImages as filmed, including PersonImage C, misidentified as SarahStanton, who has been correctly identified as RuthDean, can any evidence be provided that anyone gave sworn statements/testimony confirming the then presence of AccusedAssassin LeeHarveyOswald at said filming?

Can any known area occupants' eyewitness testimony/sworn statement evidence be provided indicative of AccusedAssassin LeeHarveyOswald being present as filmed, on the landing anywhere, especially in the PrayerPersonImage location?

Provided for review:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337201/m1/1/

 

[Alan Ford]

It's not actually his discovery but, that aside, what is so amazing about "Bart Kamp's discovery"? I don't get it. All I see is an expansion on what Oswald was heard to have said in one of his interviews. It was merely one of Oswald's many lies. Not a single witness placed him out in front of the building watching the motorcade pass by. Not one.  There is nothing that corroborates that particular lie. But you Prayer Man cultists have been doing a circle jerk over it

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Prayer Man is Oswald.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Not even Oswald said he went out front!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: There's lots of evidence pointing to the contrary.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? There's no evidence to the contrary!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What about Harry Holmes's WC testimony, and...

LONE NUTTER: You call that evidence? Ha ha ha. Nothing to see here!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: What if we were to find hard evidence that Oswald said he went out front?

LONE NUTTER: So you admit you have no hard evidence! Ha ha ha. Try harder!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: Actually, we have just uncovered a note written by Agent James Hosty which states that Oswald said he went out front.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But the Hosty note proves that Captain Fritz and co. lied about what he said in custody.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Oswald was a liar!

PRAYER-MAN-IS-OSWALD ADVOCATE: But Prayer Man is standing just where Oswald puts himself.

LONE NUTTER: Are you nuts? Prayer Man is a bilocating woman in a male-receding-hairline wig. Ha ha ha. Try harder!

[Alan Ford]

From 5/24/64 New York Herald Tribune article by Dom Bonafede:



They had a big discussion down at the FBI and one guy said it just had to be Oswald.

? ? ?

This makes no sense. Why would the FBI be relieved that a figure in the doorway at the time of the Presidential Parade was not Mr Oswald? I mean, not even Oswald himself was claiming to have gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade!

Did these FBI guys never talk to one another? Agent Hosty could have set their minds at ease in a trice and saved them all this Lovelady bother! 'Don't worry, boys, Oswald says he was in the lunchroom. Look, here's my notes from the interrogation.'

 

[Alan Ford]

Mr Lovelady in the Hughes film.



Behind him can be seen a figure in the Prayer Man spot.

I believe the figure just to Prayer Man's left is... Mr Bill Shelley.

'Out with Bill Shell[e]y in front'

Now!

Mr Shelley says something a little odd in his Warren testimony:

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

This is supposedly several minutes after the assassination.  Yet Mr Shelley feels in a position to tell us confidently where Mr Piper watched the motorcade from-----and that he himself saw Mr Piper 'coming back' from there as though fresh from having just seen the motorcade!

What's going on here? 

A good place to start is the fact that Mr Piper himself, in his Warren testimony the following day (April 8th), will be noticeably less confident in saying where he watched the motorcade from:

Mr. BALL What did you sit on?
Mr. PIPER. On a box.
Mr. BALL. Could you see out the window?
Mr. PIPER. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see anything---too many people.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch there?
Mr. PIPER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by?
Mr. PIPER. Now, I don't know-I was sitting there, I'm sure.
Mr. BALL. When the President went by, where were you sitting?
Mr. PIPER. Probably sitting there in the same place.

Very odd indeed! It's almost as though Mr Piper is treading carefully here, nervous that Mr Ball may be about to confront him with evidence to the contrary.

-------------------First he tells Mr Ball that he chose to watch the motorcade from a place from which he 'couldn't see anything--too many people'!
-------------------Then he tells Mr Ball that this was only 'probably' the place from which he couldn't see anything!

Also! Compare (and contrast) the following from his 11/23/63 Sheriff's Dept. statement:

I went to a front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass

A curious journey indeed from "I saw the President pass" (11/23/63) to "I couldn't see anything" (4/8/64)!

Now! Consider the very weird reason Mr Piper gives in his testimony for getting up and leaving his vantage point between the 2nd and 3rd shots:

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was---when all this happened---to see what time it was.
Mr. BALL. What time was it?
Mr. PIPER. It was about between 12:30---between 12:27 and 12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember.

If this is weird enough behaviour, Mr Piper's story actually gets even weirder!

In his 11/23/63 Sheriff's Dept. statement he gives a different time:

"I [...] looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:25PM."

12:25PM? Why, that's the time the motorcade had originally been scheduled to pass the building!

Friends, here's what I'm driving at:

I strongly doubt Mr Piper watched the motorcade through one of the low-to-zero-visibility windows at front of first floor. I strongly doubt he ran back to check the time.

I think he may have indeed watched the parade through glass, but the glass not of one of the windows-----the glass of the front door.

If so, then he will have seen
A) the President pass
B) Mr Oswald 'out with Bill Shelley in front'.

That would be the same Bill Shelley who will rather gratuitously (and illogically) mention to Mr Ball that Mr Piper was only now-----------several minutes after the shooting------------'coming back' from having watched the motorcade from the other corner of the first floor... Talk about over-correction!

Question! Does anyone have a good estimate of what time the larger street scene photo here was taken at? It could be important...



Thank you!