When Was JFK Hit?

[John Corbett]

Your hero and mine, John Orr, has the first shot at Z204 and JFK's first reactions at Z205.

I would say John Orr has either a very active imagination or very poor eyesight.

He notes that the HSCA photographic panel agreed JFK was reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by Z207.

I'd love to know what they see that tells them that. I see JFK calmly lowering his right hand after having been waving to the few remainin spectators on Elm St.

This would dovetail nicely with the recollections of the women along Elm just to the east of the Stemmons sign, who all said the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch to give credence to women who were standing mere feet from JFK and who said the first shot occurred when he was "right in front" of them. The fallibility of eyewitness testimony doesn't require us to think these women were actually all drunk and staring at their iPhones.

Oh, brother. Another so-and-so said argument. It is completely at odds with what I see in the Z-film. I see JFK acting very calmly lowering his right hand while turned toward the spectators. I'm not going to bother looking it up but I seem to remember somebody on this forum saying those women indicated JFK smiled at them. That doesn't seem to dovetail with a "severe external stimulus".

[Lance Payette]

I would say John Orr has either a very active imagination or very poor eyesight.
I'd love to know what they see that tells them that. I see JFK calmly lowering his right hand after having been waving to the few remainin spectators on Elm St.
Oh, brother. Another so-and-so said argument. It is completely at odds with what I see in the Z-film. I see JFK acting very calmly lowering his right hand while turned toward the spectators. I'm not going to bother looking it up but I seem to remember somebody on this forum saying those women indicated JFK smiled at them. That doesn't seem to dovetail with a "severe external stimulus".

HSCA report: "The panel noted that at approximately Zapruder frame 200 the President's movements suddenly freeze, as his right hand seemed to stop abruptly in the midst of a waving motion. Then during frames 200-202, his head moves rapidly from right to left. The sudden interruption of the president's hand-waving motion, coupled with his rapid head movements, was considered by the photographic panel as evidence of President Kennedy's reaction to some 'severe external stimulus.'"

HSCA photographic panel: "By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207, as he is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view. ... At approximately Zapruder frame 200 , Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus."

I have no more than a neutered pug in the fight, but on one side we have (1) the HSCA photographic panel, folks like Orr and any number of others who have studied the matter intensively, and the lying eyes of women who were standing right smack there at the time, versus (2) what John thinks he sees in the Z film. Ho-kay ... Maybe the severe external stimulus was Jackie's cheap French perfume.

[John Corbett]

HSCA report: "The panel noted that at approximately Zapruder frame 200 the President's movements suddenly freeze, as his right hand seemed to stop abruptly in the midst of a waving motion. Then during frames 200-202, his head moves rapidly from right to left. The sudden interruption of the president's hand-waving motion, coupled with his rapid head movements, was considered by the photographic panel as evidence of President Kennedy's reaction to some 'severe external stimulus.'"

HSCA photographic panel: "By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207, as he is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view. ... At approximately Zapruder frame 200 , Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus."

I have no more than a neutered pug in the fight, but on one side we have (1) the HSCA photographic panel, folks like Orr and any number of others who have studied the matter intensively, and the lying eyes of women who were standing right smack there at the time, versus (2) what John thinks he sees in the Z film. Ho-kay ... Maybe the severe external stimulus was Jackie's cheap French perfume.

I wonder if this illustrious panel considered that the reason JFK stopped waving could be that the crowd on the north side of Elm St. was starting to thin out.. I also wonder what the qualifications were to be on this panel. The fact that the vote was 12 to 5 indicates that this analysis was not exactly a science. More of a in-the-eye-of-the-beholder exercise. The low resolution of the film also makes such interpretations quite dubious.

[Dan O'meara]

Why not base your analysis on the evidence?  Do you really know that JFK is not already reacting in z224?:

Yes, I really know that JFK is not reacting in z224
It's explained in detail in the OP.
JFK's reaction to being shot through the throat is for his hands to reflexively fly upwards towards his throat. His elbows hyper-extend upwards.
His left arm is shown still down by his side as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign at z224, indicating the reaction is yet to begin.
His right hand moves DOWNWARDS between z224 and z225, also indicating he is yet to reflexively react to being shot.
This is shown in the Z-film.
Why don't you accept this evidence?

How does the bullet miss his hands?  Why do witnesses on Elm St. put it earlier (before the VP security car finished the turn; Linda Willis: while JFK was in her sightline to the Stemmons sign;just before Phil Willis took his z202 photo, as JFK approached the Thornton Freeway sign)?

How does the bullet miss his hands?? 
The Z-film speaks for itself.
Accept this primary evidence.
We have thrashed through this at "The First Shot" thread and your arguments were crushed down to the last detail.
I'll let that record stand rather than get dragged into your endless nonsense again.

[Dan O'meara]

Your hero and mine, John Orr, has the first shot at Z204 and JFK's first reactions at Z205. He notes that the HSCA photographic panel agreed JFK was reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by Z207. This would dovetail nicely with the recollections of the women along Elm just to the east of the Stemmons sign, who all said the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch to give credence to women who were standing mere feet from JFK and who said the first shot occurred when he was "right in front" of them. The fallibility of eyewitness testimony doesn't require us to think these women were actually all drunk and staring at their iPhones.

JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.
And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.

[Lance Payette]

JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.

How does one "completely discredit" a professional photographic panel's analysis of the same film that everyone is still looking at today? John Orr doesn't seem to think it's been "completely discredited." Or are you in John C mode, whereby anything that doesn't fit your preferred narrative has been "completely discredited"?

And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.

I'm disappointed. I would have assumed you had memorized CE 1381 by now.

Gloria Calvery: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."

Karan Hicks: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."

Karen Westbrook: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."

Carol Reed: ""At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass. I was with Mrs . Karen Hicks ... Miss Karen Westbrook ... and Mrs. Gloria Calvary ... at the time the President was shot."

Feeling enlightened, Grasshopper? I didn't think so.

[John Corbett]

JFK's "reacting to a "severe external stimulus" by 207" noted by the HSCA photographic panel has been completely discredited.
The reason the debate never ends is due to this kind of ignorance being endlessly repeated.
And which women stated that the first shot occurred when JFK was "right in front" of them? Please enlighten us.

It seems to me that the HSCA realized their timing of the shots didn't sync up with the Z-film and his was their lame attempt to argue he reacted earlier than he actually did. One second before he was actually shot.

Maybe I have misinterpreted you past writings but it seems peculiar to me you seem to accept the reality of the SBT but you dispute that Oswald was the one who fired that shot. I have no idea how you could arrive at that conclusion.