Dr. E. Forrest Chapman

[Jack Nessan]

FWIW, the firing pin impression issue was addressed by Donald Champagne at page 455 of the HSCA firearms panel's testimony.

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/pdf/HSCA_Vol1_0908_6_Firearms.pdf

This is HSCA Figure 21A, "Photomicrograph showing the correspondence between the individual identifying characteristics on the CE 543 cartridge case (L) and on panel Kennedy T-1 (R), produced by the firing pin of the CE 139 rifle." Hmm ... does the indentation on CE 543 (L portion) not look somewhat different, along the lines of what Chapman was talking about?

Lance, good eye, this is a really good point. CE 543 is not only slightly dished in, but the firing pin impression is a little “larger”, as described by Dr. Chapman, or wider from multiple firing pin strikes. That would make sense from the stand point chambers are a little bigger than shell casings for ease of introduction of the cartridge and extraction of the shell casing. What that means is the shell casing can be slightly loose in the chamber and on the bolt, especially without a bullet to help center it. Basically, the shell can be a little off center in the bolt.

Dr. Chapman mentions this himself in his observations.

Dr. Chapman noticed that the indentation on the CE 543 primer was larger than the indentations on the other shell casings found in the sniper's nest.   

Dr Chapman is describing a wider firing pin impression. Really, nice work Lance.

[Jack Nessan]

Do you think eyewitnesses would have seen a missed shot?

I am sure they would have heard one. Not one person, crowd or cars, reacted to anything at Z150 or whatever it is this week. Maybe it is time to update from this failed theory.

[Charles Collins]

Here’s an interesting animation showing how the Carcano action works:

[Charles Collins]

I guess it depends on which AI is being used. This is COPILOT.

JN “can a M38 carcano rifle be discharged without the bolt fully closed”

Short answer: No. An M38 Carcano cannot discharge unless the bolt is fully closed and locked. This is a hard mechanical rule of the Carcano action — not something that varies by model.

🔧 Why the M38 cannot fire out of battery

The M38 uses the same fundamental Carcano turn‑bolt system as the M91/38 and earlier long rifles. Three mechanical interlocks prevent firing unless the bolt is fully rotated down:

1. Front locking lugs

The firing pin cannot reach the primer unless the bolt lugs are fully engaged in their recesses. If the bolt is even slightly up, the lugs block firing‑pin travel.

2. Firing‑pin cam block

The cam track on the bolt body physically stops the firing pin from moving forward until the bolt handle is fully down. This is a positive mechanical stop, not a soft interference.

3. Cocking piece/sear alignment

The sear only releases the cocking piece when the bolt is in the locked position. If the bolt is not fully closed, the trigger may “click,” but the firing pin cannot travel.

🧪 What happens if you try to fire with the bolt slightly open

On a Carcano (including the M38):

The trigger can release the cocking piece.

The firing pin begins to move forward.

The cam block stops it before it reaches the primer.

Result: a dry click, no ignition.

There is no known case — in military testing, civilian use, or forensic examination — of a Carcano firing out of battery.
---------------------------

It looks like the difference is really does the firing pin release even though you are hearing the click. One AI says it does the other says it does not. The ones I messed with I could not tell. I did notice when the bolt is rotated and the spring is engaged the bolt can no longer move and is tight to the chamber.

That’s interesting Jack, thanks.

What seems preposterous to me about the dry-firing theory is that: if an empty cartridge were to be used for dry fire and the firing pin struck the primer for a second time, I believe that the initial impressions stamped into the primer by the firing pin when the live bullet was fired would be obliterated such that an identification would not be feasible.

Have you taken any of the test cartridges that you dry-fired to a firearms expert and asked if they could be identified as being fired from the rifle you used?

[John Corbett]

I am sure they would have heard one. Not one person, crowd or cars, reacted to anything at Z150 or whatever it is this week. Maybe it is time to update from this failed theory.

JBC reacted. Glen Bennett reacted. Most people reported hearing 3 shots. Because that shot didn't hit anybody (except maybe Tague), many people did not realize it was a gunshot. At first some said they thought it was a firecracker or a motorcycle backfire. Charles Brehm can be seen in the Z-film clapping his hands even after JFK had been hit by the second shot, apparently oblivious to the fact JFK had just been shot. There is a wide disparity how people perceived that first shot. Some didn't even remember hearing the first shot and only remember hearing two, but the consensus of witnesses is that there were three which matches the number of spent shells found in the sniper's nest. Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were directly below Oswald when the shots were fired all testified to hearing three shots. Jarman and Williams both said they thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire or a cop saluting the President.

[Charles Collins]

Apparently, the dented cartridge neck is a fairly common issue and has a straightforward cause:

Question to Google AI:


on a Carcano M38 rifle can the extractor, if the bolt is pulled back very quickly and forcefully, begin the ejection process of the empty case prematurely?

Google AI answer:

No. The Carcano's extractor is designed as a spring-tensioned claw that firmly grips the casing rim. It holds the cartridge securely during the entire rearward travel of the bolt until it hits the fixed ejector.Here is why premature ejection does not occur:Controlled Push: The fixed ejector (a rigid metal tongue inside the receiver) requires the bolt to be pulled all the way to the rear before it can physically strike the casing and flip it out of the ejection port.Extractor Limits: Even if you pull the bolt with extreme force, the extractor maintains its grip until the bolt reaches the end of its stroke. Forceful, rapid cycling will typically just result in a more energetic and reliable ejection, rather than a premature one.What might feel like premature ejection is often a worn extractor spring, a damaged extractor claw, or damaged casing rims (usually caused by poor-quality reproduction en-bloc clips).If you are experiencing cycling issues, tell me more about what is happening:Does the empty case drop out of the action before clearing the port, or fail to leave the chamber at all?Is the issue happening with live rounds or spent brass?Knowing this can help determine if it is a feed issue, an extractor failure, or a dirty chamber.


You said: the cartridge neck gets dented during the ejection process:

Dented cartridge necks are caused by the brass slamming into the receiver wall as it flips out of the action. Pulling the bolt back very quickly and forcefully makes this problem much worse because it dramatically increases the rotational speed of the cartridge during ejection. 

Accurate Shooter +2The Mechanics of the Carcano DentWhen you cycle a Carcano M38 rifle, the bolt face moves backwards until the rim of the cartridge hits the rigid, fixed ejector. This impact creates a pivot point:The extractor claw holds the right side of the rim.The fixed ejector pushes the left side forward.This combined force violently swings the front of the cartridge case to the right to clear the receiver. If you pull the bolt back with extreme speed, the cartridge pivots with so much momentum that the hot, pliable brass neck is whipped directly into the right edge of the receiver bridge or the ejection port opening. The metal-on-metal impact leaves a characteristic flat spot or crescent-shaped dent right at the case mouth.

 Accurate Shooter +1How to Fix or Prevent ItModerate Your Force: The most straightforward solution is to pull the bolt back with a smooth, deliberate motion rather than a violent yank. You only need enough speed to clear the port, not maximum velocity. Buffer the Receiver: If you want to cycle quickly without ruining your brass, place a small strip of electrical tape, painters tape, or the soft side of adhesive velcro on the right side of the receiver where the brass strikes. This cushions the blow and stops the denting. Inspect the Extractor: If the problem occurs even during slow extraction, check the extractor hook for burrs or sharp edges. A malformed extractor can grip the rim unevenly, throwing off the intended angle of ejection.

[Charles Collins]

Apparently, the dented cartridge neck is a fairly common issue and has a straightforward cause:

Question to Google AI:


on a Carcano M38 rifle can the extractor, if the bolt is pulled back very quickly and forcefully, begin the ejection process of the empty case prematurely?

Google AI answer:

No. The Carcano's extractor is designed as a spring-tensioned claw that firmly grips the casing rim. It holds the cartridge securely during the entire rearward travel of the bolt until it hits the fixed ejector.Here is why premature ejection does not occur:Controlled Push: The fixed ejector (a rigid metal tongue inside the receiver) requires the bolt to be pulled all the way to the rear before it can physically strike the casing and flip it out of the ejection port.Extractor Limits: Even if you pull the bolt with extreme force, the extractor maintains its grip until the bolt reaches the end of its stroke. Forceful, rapid cycling will typically just result in a more energetic and reliable ejection, rather than a premature one.What might feel like premature ejection is often a worn extractor spring, a damaged extractor claw, or damaged casing rims (usually caused by poor-quality reproduction en-bloc clips).If you are experiencing cycling issues, tell me more about what is happening:Does the empty case drop out of the action before clearing the port, or fail to leave the chamber at all?Is the issue happening with live rounds or spent brass?Knowing this can help determine if it is a feed issue, an extractor failure, or a dirty chamber.


You said: the cartridge neck gets dented during the ejection process:

Dented cartridge necks are caused by the brass slamming into the receiver wall as it flips out of the action. Pulling the bolt back very quickly and forcefully makes this problem much worse because it dramatically increases the rotational speed of the cartridge during ejection.

Accurate Shooter +2The Mechanics of the Carcano DentWhen you cycle a Carcano M38 rifle, the bolt face moves backwards until the rim of the cartridge hits the rigid, fixed ejector. This impact creates a pivot point:The extractor claw holds the right side of the rim.The fixed ejector pushes the left side forward.This combined force violently swings the front of the cartridge case to the right to clear the receiver. If you pull the bolt back with extreme speed, the cartridge pivots with so much momentum that the hot, pliable brass neck is whipped directly into the right edge of the receiver bridge or the ejection port opening. The metal-on-metal impact leaves a characteristic flat spot or crescent-shaped dent right at the case mouth.

 Accurate Shooter +1How to Fix or Prevent ItModerate Your Force: The most straightforward solution is to pull the bolt back with a smooth, deliberate motion rather than a violent yank. You only need enough speed to clear the port, not maximum velocity. Buffer the Receiver: If you want to cycle quickly without ruining your brass, place a small strip of electrical tape, painters tape, or the soft side of adhesive velcro on the right side of the receiver where the brass strikes. This cushions the blow and stops the denting. Inspect the Extractor: If the problem occurs even during slow extraction, check the extractor hook for burrs or sharp edges. A malformed extractor can grip the rim unevenly, throwing off the intended angle of ejection.

Combine the above AI answers with the HSCA testimony from the link that Lance posted earlier in this thread, and I believe we have the answer as to how the dent in CE 543 most likely occurred.


Mr. MCDONALD. Are you saying then when your panel test fired
CE-139, out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented
mouth? Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, that occurred during the ejection proc-
ess in firing the weapon.
If I may.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, please.
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. The ejection is that process whereby the bolt
handle is moved to the rear to eject the expended cartridge case,
ejecting the cartridge case out of the weapon.
Mr. MCDONALD. Now, when you tested the rifle, the panel tested
the rifle, ofyour panel members, who ejected the shell or cartridge
case that came out with the dent?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Mr. Lutz.
Mr. MCDONALD. Would Mr. Lutz please come forward and dem-
onstrate to us how you ejected to cause a dent in the test cartridge
case. Mr. LUTZ. The particular amount of force that I used to extract
and eject the cartridge case from the weapon was much in the
manner that I would consider to be employed during anattempt to
rapidly fire the firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being
closed and then with considerable speed and pressure being ap-
plied, opening it and pulling the bolt to the rear and holding it to
my side, and in a manner very rapidly, kicking the cartridge back
and ejecting the cartridge and causing it fall to the floor.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt for-
ward, the cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing
tube holding the bolt handle and then pulling it back with a
violent move duplicating what I deemed to be a rapid sequence of
firing, operating the handle to rapid sequence of
firing, operating the handle to rapidly fire the firearm.