The Tippit Shooting At 1:15-1:16, FACT

[Mitch Todd]

As you are well aware, two members of the Methodist staff on hand for Tippit's arrival have said that the clocks in Methodist ER were unreliable. Dr Mollenhoff said, any discrepancy was due to issues with Methodist's time system.

Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems? Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits. Or did they simply express an opinion that you find convenient?

If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers. Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

Btw, another contemporary document that confirms the times reported by Davenport and Bardin is the receipt for the submission of a an uniform button and a bullet to the DPD evidence room, issued at 3:10 PM, on 11/22/63 On that document it is noted that Dr Liguori pronounced Tippit D.O.A. at 1:15 PM and Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet at 1:30 PM.


At the time it occurred, JFK's murder was also not a federal crime. So why was the FBI investigating it?

That's a good question. Dr. Earl Rose objected to the removal of Kennedy's body from Parkland Hospital on exactly that ground, but the Secret Service broke the law and took the casket anyway.

Where Kennedy differs from Tippit is that he was a federal employee and Tippit was a state officer. I'm only guessing that this could be the reason that FBI got involved, but a more likely scenario is that Hoover simply wanted to control the investigation and leaned on Chief Curry to ask the FBI for "assistance".

MW: Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems?

You don't need to be an "expert on time systems" to know that a clock is off.


MW: Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits.

As I implied, we've already been over this. Nurse Thompson's statements come from Earl Golz' Dallas Morning News articles. Myers interviewed Moellenhoff. As I've pointed out previously.

 
MW: If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

So? It don't mean that the clocks weren't off at Methodist that day.

 
MW: The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers.

All I need are witnesses at the hospital at the time who say that the clock(s) in the ER were off that day.

The autopsy permit was generated by the Justice of the Peace at 3PM. The JoP was not located at Methodist hospital, and is therefore not independent confirmation of the time of death. If anything, the time is taken from the documentation generated at Methodist, so it is merely repeating information based on the same faulty clock used by Liguori.


MW: Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

...and if that timepiece was the same one Ligouri used.....


MW: Dr. Earl Rose objected to the removal of Kennedy's body from Parkland Hospital on exactly that ground, but the Secret Service broke the law and took the casket anyway.

It wasn't until later in the afternoon that Texas AG Waggoner Carr and the US Dep of Justice jointly came to the conclusion that JFK's death was not covered under existing US law. Rose was asserting Texas laws regarding the movement of the deceased across county lines.

[Mitch Todd]

Tge time pieces that Markham and Bowley relied on were never compared with a reference or were even read/transcribed coorectly.

Markham's time estimate was based on a laundromat clock. That's not a timepiece that I'd ever rely on, even for the date.

Bowley is quoted in Into the Nightmare as saying that his watch could have been 5 minutes off, which would be fairly common for that era.

[Martin Weidmann]

MW: Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems?

You don't need to be an "expert on time systems" to know that a clock is off.


MW: Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits.

As I implied, we've already been over this. Nurse Thompson's statements come from Earl Golz' Dallas Morning News articles. Myers interviewed Moellenhoff. As I've pointed out previously.

 
MW: If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

So? It don't mean that the clocks weren't off at Methodist that day.

 
MW: The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers.

All I need are witnesses at the hospital at the time who say that the clock(s) in the ER were off that day.

The autopsy permit was generated by the Justice of the Peace at 3PM. The JoP was not located at Methodist hospital, and is therefore not independent confirmation of the time of death. If anything, the time is taken from the documentation generated at Methodist, so it is merely repeating information based on the same faulty clock used by Liguori.


MW: Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

...and if that timepiece was the same one Ligouri used.....


MW: Dr. Earl Rose objected to the removal of Kennedy's body from Parkland Hospital on exactly that ground, but the Secret Service broke the law and took the casket anyway.

It wasn't until later in the afternoon that Texas AG Waggoner Carr and the US Dep of Justice jointly came to the conclusion that JFK's death was not covered under existing US law. Rose was asserting Texas laws regarding the movement of the deceased across county lines.

MW: Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems?

You don't need to be an "expert on time systems" to know that a clock is off.

Really? And how did they know that the clock was off? Are you suggesting that their clocks were correct and the hospital clocks were not?

MW: Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits.

As I implied, we've already been over this. Nurse Thompson's statements come from Earl Golz' Dallas Morning News articles. Myers interviewed Moellenhoff. As I've pointed out previously.

So where is the transcript of the interview?

MW: If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

So? It don't mean that the clocks weren't off at Methodist that day.

It also doesn't mean they were off

MW: The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers.

All I need are witnesses at the hospital at the time who say that the clock(s) in the ER were off that day.

Nope... the opinion of a "witness" is utterly meaningless if it can not be verified.

The autopsy permit was generated by the Justice of the Peace at 3PM. The JoP was not located at Methodist hospital, and is therefore not independent confirmation of the time of death. If anything, the time is taken from the documentation generated at Methodist, so it is merely repeating information based on the same faulty clock used by Liguori.

The problem with your pathetic theory is that somebody informed the Justice of the Peace about the D.O.A. time and that person could get into serious problems if incorrect information was communicated.
Explain to me why the person who informed the Justice of the Peace would risk their job by providing false information?

MW: Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

...and if that timepiece was the same one Ligouri used.....

So far, you haven't been able to even come close to proving that the clocks at the hospital were indeed off. All you have is the opinion of one doctor who Dale Myers interviewed, but you can't even produce that transcript of that interview. So, basically, you've got nothing.

That's at best an assumption for which you haven't got a shred of evidence. The fact remains that Davenport confirmed the D.O.A. time at 1:15 PM.

[Martin Weidmann]

Markham's time estimate was based on a laundromat clock. That's not a timepiece that I'd ever rely on, even for the date.

Bowley is quoted in Into the Nightmare as saying that his watch could have been 5 minutes off, which would be fairly common for that era.

I don't really care what clock Markham used. Having been a frequent user of buses when I was young, I know from first hand experience that people using the buses know exactly when they are supposed to be at the bus stop.

As for Bowley, I would love to see that quote. But beyond that, the school where he picked up his daughter most likely sounded the bell at 1:00 PM. As I have driven the distance and the route from the school to 10th street several times, some years ago, I know for a fact that the journey did not take more that 13 minutes. So, I don't need Bowley's watch to be correct or not. The evidence shows he arrived at 10th street at 1:13 or 1:14 PM.

Btw, if it was common for clocks to be off by 5 minutes and baring in mind what J.C. Bowles said about the DPD dispatcher clocks, how can you be sure that the DPD time stamps were correct?

[John Mytton]

Yep, the Police tapes were synchronized with the Hertz clock at 12:30 and some CT's claim that somehow the Police tapes went out of sync by somewhere around 5 to 10 minutes in the next 3/4 of an hour, and the more desperate CT zealots claim that the Hertz clock which people set their own timepieces by was not accurate, but not one CT has ever proved that the Hertz clock was even a minute out, much less 5 or more! 



JohnM

[John Mytton]

I notice that the same hardcore CT's that endorse Markham as being a Screwball because of her positive Oswald identification, suddenly have her as being the Master of Space and Time when it comes to her time estimates!! You can't make this insanity up. Hahaha

And since by some, personal anecdotes seem to be considered as evidence, here's mine. Before I could drive I had two options to catch a bus, firstly at the bus stop on my street where a bus would come at intervals of 30 mins or 60 mins, depending on the time of day OR if I missed my local bus I would walk up to the main road where buses came along every 5-15 minutes, so in other words much like at Markham's bus stop where buses came every 10 minutes, the time we arrived at the bus stop was meaningless because it would always only be a short wait till the next bus.

JohnM

[John Corbett]

I notice that the same hardcore CT's that endorse Markham as being a Screwball because of her positive Oswald identification, suddenly have her as being the Master of Space and Time when it comes to her time estimates!! You can't make this insanity up. Hahaha

And since by some, personal anecdotes seem to be considered as evidence, here's mine. Before I could drive I had two options to catch a bus, firstly at the bus stop on my street where a bus would come at intervals of 30 mins or 60 mins, depending on the time of day OR if I missed my local bus I would walk up to the main road where buses came along every 5-15 minutes, so in other words much like at Markham's bus stop where buses came every 10 minutes, the time we arrived at the bus stop was meaningless because it would always only be a short wait till the next bus.

JohnM

Stop it. You're making too much sense.