Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[John Corbett]

Not a good analogy.  There is abundant evidence that the Earth is spherical and no evidence that conflicts with that.

There is abundant evidence of JBC being shot in the early Z220s (jacket bulge, arm flip, twisting and doubling over to his right) but you ignore all of that because you prefer to believe in a fantasy.

In the case of the SBT there is no one who witnessed it and some who witnesses who said it didn’t happen.

Do you think witnesses can see bullets in flight? I guess that's no nuttier than some of the other goofy things you have convinced yourself of.

There is also abundant other evidence that conflicts with it.  You just say that evidence is all wrong.  I am saying: keep an open mind about it.

I refuse to keep an open mind about nonsense such as a flat earth or your goofy scenario.

You don’t think this is in reaction to just being shot in the neck?

You said the reaction was at Z224. What reaction do you see in Z224. At Z225, JFK's right arm is still moving downward from where it was at Z225. David Von Pein has pointed out that JFK's facial expression seems to be a reaction to being shot and he might be right but the frame when enlarged is too blurry to say conclusively. In any event, there is no visible reaction at Z224 which is what you claimed.

I never said I don’t see those things. I am just saying that it is quite consistent with how JBC and others said he reacted to the first shot.

Tell me where JBC said he reacted to the first shot by flipping his arm upward, doubling over and twisting to his right. He said he looked over his right shoulder and when he could not see JFK he started to turn back to the front when he felt the shot strike him in the back. Tell me where you see JBC start turning back to the front post Z230. You have him doing just the opposite. You have him turned around and facing the rear when he was shot in the back, an impossibility for a shot from the rear.

You think JBC's reaction to being shot in the thigh is to calmly turn to his right to see JFK. Then you believe his obvious arm flip and dramatic gyrations at Z226 and immediately after are NOT reactions to being shot through the chest and wrist. These are just examples of the nutty things you have to believe to convince yourself of your nonsensical scenario.

Tague’s testimony is not evidence? Greer’s is not evidence? That’s why you should keep an open mind.

I refuse to keep an open mind to nonsense.

You continue to treat witness accounts as if they are established facts. There is no conclusive evidence as to when Tague was hit. It could have been a first shot ricochet or a fragment from the headshot. We can say with certainty that it did not come from CE399 which is the bullet from the second shot.
You expect us to believe the second shot struck JBC's wrist, ricocheted up over the front seat, over the windshield, and flew all the way down to where Tague was standing and somehow still had enough velocity to strike the curb in front of Tague and cause his facial wound. Should we label this MMFT (Mason's Magic Fragment Theory)?

You also seem to have an arithmetic problem. If the bullet from the second shot hit Tague and the headshot was the third shot, how did the CE399 and up at Parkland. You have also tried to tell us the first bullet imbedded in the upholstery after exiting JFK's throat and striking JBC's thigh and went undetected aby the SS and FBI. That's four shots. OMG!!! After 62 years you have uncovered empirical evidence of a fourth shot, a second shooter, and a conspiracy. WTG!!

[John Corbett]

delete

[Zeon Mason]

Well I’m kind of stuck in this middle ground area kind of like Neo was in the subway.

I can’t ignore 3/4th witness hearing the 3 shots rapidly fired and in the 1….2..3 pattern.

But I cannot ignore that Z film z223-Z230 sequence of JFK and JC moving in sync.

I don’t buy that JCs jacket bulge coincident with this in sync movement was caused by just a random gust of wind.

I don’t buy that the expression on JCs face is fear rather than pain. JC may have thought he felt no pain at the time but his body is reflexively responding to the force of the bullet causing his body to rotate and move forward. And the sudden jerk of his right hand upward holding the hat, is another indication of an involuntary nervous system reaction.

So the Z224 shot I think is more probable than the Z270 shot, especially given the computer modeling that Myers has done for Z224 which lines up the chest wound with the wrist wound and thigh wound.

However, I’m stuck with Harold Norman’s 3 shots  in  about 4 secs by his boom click click demonstrations and his recollection that JFK slumped after the 1st shot and that only AFTER that slump did Norman hear the next 2 shots in only about 2-3 secs.

The simple resolution would be that the TSBD shooter used a semi auto rifle, and that Norman heard just the shells being “ejected” and hitting the floor. However Norman in his WC testimony after pointed out his original  “ejected” statement goes on to agree with the leading questions if he meant he was describing the operation of the bolt.

Will Fritz picked up the shells at the SN that Luke Mooney had seen on the floor , but unfortunately BEFORE they were photographed  laying on the floor. So that introduces some doubt if those really were MC shells.

However, this leads off into the rabbit hole of conspiracy and suspicions of Fritz and many others willing to participate in a post event cover up, and how or why was the MC rifle placed on the 6th floor if the shooter was using a semi auto.

So I am leaning that the TSBD shooter was using the MC rifle and he fired Z224 as the first shot, took his time 4.8 secs later and shot the 2nd shot at Z313. Then he must have seen he had scored a hit at Z313 and he just rapidly fired the 3rd shot in 2 secs that went and struck the curb near Tague (and then into the sewer?) This at least fits the 1….2..3 pattern and all 3 shots in about 6.8 secs which might be “close enough?

[John Corbett]

Well I’m kind of stuck in this middle ground area kind of like Neo was in the subway.

I can’t ignore 3/4th witness hearing the 3 shots rapidly fired and in the 1….2..3 pattern.

I can. A substantial number of witnesses told us erroneously that the shots came from the direction of the GK. If earwitnesses could be wrong about that they can certainly be wrong about the spacing of the shots.

But I cannot ignore that Z film z223-Z230 sequence of JFK and JC moving in sync.

I don’t buy that JCs jacket bulge coincident with this in sync movement was caused by just a random gust of wind.

I don’t buy that the expression on JCs face is fear rather than pain. JC may have thought he felt no pain at the time but his body is reflexively responding to the force of the bullet causing his body to rotate and move forward. And the sudden jerk of his right hand upward holding the hat, is another indication of an involuntary nervous system reaction.

So the Z224 shot I think is more probable than the Z270 shot, especially given the computer modeling that Myers has done for Z224 which lines up the chest wound with the wrist wound and thigh wound.

However, I’m stuck with Harold Norman’s 3 shots  in  about 4 secs by his boom click click demonstrations and his recollection that JFK slumped after the 1st shot and that only AFTER that slump did Norman hear the next 2 shots in only about 2-3 secs.

When I weigh all of the evidence you listed above against Norman's recollection that JFK was hit by the first shot, it's an easy call as to which is more probative. I'll never understand why people put so much faith in what witnesses recall when it conflicts with what they can see for themselves in the Z-film. Zapruder's camera is hands down the best witness to the JFKA we have and any part of a human witness account that conflicts with the Z-film should be 86ed.

The simple resolution would be that the TSBD shooter used a semi auto rifle, and that Norman heard just the shells being “ejected” and hitting the floor. However, Norman in his WC testimony after pointed out his original  “ejected” statement goes on to agree with the leading questions if he meant he was describing the operation of the bolt.

The shells found on the floor and the recovered bullets were all fired by Oswald's Carano which eliminates the possibility of a semi-auto firing the shots. Again, trust the hard evidence, not witness impressions.

Will Fritz picked up the shells at the SN that Luke Mooney had seen on the floor , but unfortunately BEFORE they were photographed  laying on the floor. So that introduces some doubt if those really were MC shells.

Whether true or not, it doesn't change the fact the recovered shells came from Oswald's rifle. The dispersion pattern of the shells as photographed dovetails with Oswald firing an early first shot at an almost vertical angle and follow up shots down Elm St. The bolt ejects shells to the right which would send the first shell to the right toward the open end of the sniper's nest. The next two shots would eject toward the wall of boxes.

However, this leads off into the rabbit hole of conspiracy and suspicions of Fritz and many others willing to participate in a post event cover up, and how or why was the MC rifle placed on the 6th floor if the shooter was using a semi auto.

You're overthinking this. Did Fritz plant the shattered bullet in the limo and plant CE399 at Parkland. Those were fired by Oswald's rifle which means so were the shells found in the sniper's nest. Use your common sense. It's not that hard.

So I am leaning that the TSBD shooter was using the MC rifle and he fired Z224 as the first shot, took his time 4.8 secs later and shot the 2nd shot at Z313. Then he must have seen he had scored a hit at Z313 and he just rapidly fired the 3rd shot in 2 secs that went and struck the curb near Tague (and then into the sewer?) This at least fits the 1….2..3 pattern and all 3 shots in about 6.8 secs which might be “close enough?

If Oswald saw what his Z313 shot had done, there would be no reason to fire another shot. Oswald chambered the fourth and final bullet from his magazine in preparation for a fourth shot but once he reacquired the target in his scope and saw what he had done and JFK falling over to the left, he would have known a fourth shot was unnecessary. He knew he had scored a kill shot.

You keep relying on witnesses to give you accurate information. I will never understand that. Some of the things witnesses tell us are right and some are wrong. The way you figure out which is which is to figure out what fits with the hard evidence and what doesn't. There is no harder evidence than the Z-film. Anyone who relies primarily on eye and ear witness testimony without corroboration will never figure out a very simple murder case.

Your suggestion that a third shot was the one that struck Tague makes no sense. Tague was nowhere near the line of fire after Z313 and when a shooter rushes a shot, the tendency for a right handed shooter is to pull the shot low and to the right. That could have caused that shot to miss to the right of the limo but it's not going anywhere near Tague.

[Andrew Mason]

Do you think witnesses can see bullets in flight? I guess that's no nuttier than some of the other goofy things you have convinced yourself of.

No. But they can see how a person is facing when they hear a shot.

You said the reaction was at Z224. What reaction do you see in Z224. At Z225, JFK's right arm is still moving downward from where it was at Z225.

David Von Pein has pointed out that JFK's facial expression seems to be a reaction to being shot and he might be right but the frame when enlarged is too blurry to say conclusively. In any event, there is no visible reaction at Z224 which is what you claimed.

We cannot see him behind the sign but when he emerges at z224-225 we can see that he is already reacting:


Since we cannot see him behind the sign we don't know when that reaction began. It looks to me like it may have started after z193:

Tell me where JBC said he reacted to the first shot by flipping his arm upward,

Well, he never said he did that in relation to the second shot either. 

doubling over

Where do you see him doubling over before z278?

and twisting to his right.

2 H 132-133:

• "We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except, just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately-the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. So I looked, failing to see him. I was turning to look back'

You think JBC's reaction to being shot in the thigh is to calmly turn to his right to see JFK.

I have never said that he reacted to being shot in the thigh.  He said he never felt it. It is not uncommon for people not to feel bullets, especially in the extremities.

You continue to treat witness accounts as if they are established facts. There is no conclusive evidence as to when Tague was hit. It could have been a first shot ricochet or a fragment from the headshot. We can say with certainty that it did not come from CE399 which is the bullet from the second shot.
You expect us to believe the second shot struck JBC's wrist, ricocheted up over the front seat, over the windshield, and flew all the way down to where Tague was standing and somehow still had enough velocity to strike the curb in front of Tague and cause his facial wound. Should we label this MMFT (Mason's Magic Fragment Theory)?

In fact, the fragment that struck Tague had to have a slow enough average speed over the 280 feet from the car at z271 to Tague in order to have enough time to drop to the pavement.  On a 3 degree decline after clearing the top of the windshield it would have had to have dropped almost 15 feet to strike the road near Tague. That would take almost a full second.  So it would have to be travelling an average of 280 ft/sec.

You also seem to have an arithmetic problem. If the bullet from the second shot hit Tague and the headshot was the third shot, how did the CE399 and up at Parkland. You have also tried to tell us the first bullet imbedded in the upholstery after exiting JFK's throat and striking JBC's thigh and went undetected aby the SS and FBI. That's four shots. OMG!!! After 62 years you have uncovered empirical evidence of a fourth shot, a second shooter, and a conspiracy. WTG!!

That was Zeon's suggestion about the bullet striking the upholstery and there was a close inspection of the car and no such hole was found.  There is not enough evidence for us to determine how it ended up where it did.  But there are several ways in which it could have happened. After passing though JFK, tumbling over the ensuing 4 feet of air and then, while spinning, striking the thigh butt-first on an angle plowing through leg muscle until reaching the femur depositing the lead fragment in the femur it may have bounced back.  It may have come out of the wound or it may have stayed in the wound.  Or it may have kept going and struck something in the car that caused it to bounce back without causing damage.  It may have bounced up and back off the thigh and ended up on JBC's lap or in the back seat or on JFK.  The person who found it was of the view that it came not from Connally's stretcher but from stretcher B that was already in the hallway and had some bloody sheets on it.