Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[John Corbett]

The Z film is surely the perfect metaphor for all of the JFKA: A pretty clear MOVIE of the event has spawned at least 75 different claims as to what it shows, including claims that it's been altered or is a complete fake.

It reminds me of a joke I posted here before: A CTer dies and goes to heaven. Upon encountering Jesus, he pleads: "Look, I spent my whole life on the JFKA. I gotta know, WHO DID IT?" Jesus: "Oswald, and he acted alone." The CTer walks away muttering, "Wow, the conspiracy goes even higher than I thought." Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing.

I heard that joke a long time ago and I still love it. I had thought about posting it myself a few weeks ago. Now I won't have to.

[Andrew Mason]

Do you honestly believe anyone took note of which way JBC was facing when they heard the first shot. In fact, I doubt there were many if any spectators looking at JBC. Their attention would have been focused on Jack and Jackie. They were the ones the spectators came to see.

I agree.  But JBC received his torso wound on the second shot. Gayle Newman said he was turned sideways when the second shot sounded and he just lay back on the seat.  Nellie told Dr. Shires that he was turned around to his right when the second shot struck him. Dave Powers said JFK moved left after the first and JBC disappeared after the second.

Now you are just imagining things. JFK shows no reaction from Z193 until he goes behind the sign. When he reemerges, his right hand is still going down. It doesn't start up until Z226, the same frame JBC's right arm flips upward. And you want to chalk that up to coincidence.

I have never suggested it is a coincidence.  They are both reacting to the first shot: JFK by realizing he can’t breathe and JBC realizing JFK was being assassinated.

YES HE DID!
Open your damn eyes!
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z247.jpg
It is preposterous to think JBC is not reacting to the shot that hit him less than a second and a half earlier. Anybody who denies that cannot be taken seriously and you sure as hell are not and never will be as long as you continue to peddle this nonsense.

Opening one’s eyes to reading what people said is a good thing too.

Nellie was pretty clear that he said “oh, no, no” before the second shot. And she is looking at JFK after that.  She said she never looked back after the second shot.

Did you just make that up? Never mind. I already know the answer to that. The reason JBC didn't feel the thigh wound was sensory overload. He didn't even know his wrist had been shattered because the chest wound overloaded his nervous system and it was the only thing he remembered feeling.

That may be true.  But it also may be true that he did not feel the thigh wound because it didn’t generate any sensation of pain. When local injuries occur quickly and obliterate nerve endings there may be nothing to send sensory signals to the brain.

You theories get even more preposterous the hard you try to saved your turkey of a scenario. Just to get over the front seat and Kellerman the bullet would have to have deflected upward at a very steep angle. It's hard to believe that a bullet striking JBC's wrist would cause that much change in direction but even if it did, it would now be flying in a parabolic arc. If my chance it came down and hit the curb in front of Tague, it's primary force would be gravity, not momentum and it would not have cause the chip in the pavement that apparently caused Tague's superficial face wound.

Why would a projectile’s impact be due to the forces acting on it before impact? The impact force is entirely due to velocity and mass of the projectile. In this case it may be that the fragment struck the road surface and deflected up striking the curb on an upward trajectory and deflected to Tague’s cheek.

[John Corbett]

I agree.  But JBC received his torso wound on the second shot.

Yes he did when he was starting to turn back to the front and his shoulders were turned only slightly to the right at or about Z222.

Gayle Newman said he was turned sideways when the second shot sounded and he just lay back on the seat.

You just acknowledged that the spectators would have been focused on the Kennedys so how the hell would Gayle Newman know how JBC was turned when the shot struck him, especially since you believe JFK was hit and was reacting to the first shot. You don't think seeing JFK throw his arms up in front of his throat would have drawn here attention to JFK even more than it would have?

 
Nellie told Dr. Shires that he was turned around to his right when the second shot struck him.

I don't give a rat's ass what Nellie had to say.

Dave Powers said JFK moved left after the first and JBC disappeared after the second.

Yes, that is how Powers remembered it but that doesn't establish how it actually happened. You continue to treat these witnesses as if their recollections are gospel.

I have never suggested it is a coincidence.  They are both reacting to the first shot: JFK by realizing he can’t breathe and JBC realizing JFK was being assassinated.

You most certainly have suggested a coincidence. It's a binary choice. Either their simultaneous arm movements were caused by the same stimulus or the simultaneous arm movement was a coincidence. Since you have rejected they are reacting to the same stimulus (being shot at the same time) that leaves only a coincidence. Not only that, it is a rather odd coincidence. The arm movements of both men occurred 33 frames, almost two seconds, after the shot at Z193. According to you, both had the same delayed reaction to the shot. JFK reacting to being shot and JBC reacting to the sound and the reaction they both made was to flip their arms upward.

Opening one’s eyes to reading what people said is a good thing too.

Only if you can discern what they said is right and what they said is wrong. You don't bother with that step.

Nellie was pretty clear that he said “oh, no, no” before the second shot. And she is looking at JFK after that.  She said she never looked back after the second shot.

See above.

That may be true.  But it also may be true that he did not feel the thigh wound because it didn’t generate any sensation of pain. When local injuries occur quickly and obliterate nerve endings there may be nothing to send sensory signals to the brain.

Now you are really stretching. I take Ozempic every week and I feel it when I stick the needle into my thigh. It isn't a terrible pain, but it isn't pleasant either. We're supposed to believe that a JBC did not feel a puncture wound almost two inches deep into his thigh if he was not consumed by the overwhelming sensation of having a bullet traverse his chest a millisecond earlier.

Why would a projectile’s impact be due to the forces acting on it before impact? The impact force is entirely due to velocity and mass of the projectile. In this case it may be that the fragment struck the road surface and deflected up striking the curb on an upward trajectory and deflected to Tague’s cheek.

More stretching by you. For the projectile to cause the chip on a concrete surface it would have to be traveling with a good deal of velocity. Under your scenario the bullet would have reached the apex of an arc and would coming down mainly by the force of gravity with most of the forward momentum expended. It makes no sense. Just o clear the front seat, it would have had to leave the limo on a very steep upward angle. If the bullet had any significant velocity left, it's not going to come down anywhere near Tague.

CE888 shows the approximate position of the limo at Z161 which is the closest frame to when I believe the first shot was fired (z147-148). It doesn't show where Tague was standing. To get a view of that you can go to the sniper's nest webcam.

https://www.earthcam.com/usa/texas/dallas/dealeyplaza/?cam=dealeyplaza

The camera lens would be in the approximate position of the the muzzle of the Carcano. Tague would have been closest to the line of fire for an early shot before the limo passed under the tree. The farther down Elm St. the limo went the farther left of a direct line to Tague it becomes. That would mean for a shot to deflect off JBC's wrist and hit the curb near Tague, it would not only have to deflect upward at a steep angle, it would have to deflect well to the right as well.

If you watch the webcam long enough, every once in a while, you'll see some idiot walk out in the middle of Elm St. after traffic clears and have his picture taken on the X that marks the approximate location of the headshot. I know because 18 years ago at about this time of year, I was one of those idiots. I still have the picture.

I also almost witnessed an accident. Some guy in the far left lane raced ahead of someone in the middle lane the then abruptly cut him off apparently to get to the right so he could turn onto the Stemmons Freeway. I wouldn't be surprised if someone flashed the international symbol of ill will.

[Andrew Mason]

Yes he did when he was starting to turn back to the front and his shoulders were turned only slightly to the right at or about Z222.
You just acknowledged that the spectators would have been focused on the Kennedys so how the hell would Gayle Newman know how JBC was turned when the shot struck him, especially since you believe JFK was hit and was reacting to the first shot.

I was responding to your comment about the first shot.  It is understandable that no one was focused on JBC as they would be focused on JFK.  That may be why there are at least 22 witnesses who recalled how JFK reacted to it.  (One might wonder how they could all be so wrong -all in the same way - in recalling his reaction to it).

But for the second shot a few people were watching JBC.  Nellie turned to look at her husband at the time of the second shot.  She said he recoiled and she reached out and pulled him down onto her.  Gayle Newman said the second shot occurred as the car was passing right in front of her. You can see them standing down by the lamp post in Willis 5:


So Gayle Newman just reported what she saw when the second shot sounded: JBC was turned sideways and lay back on his seat.  Dave Powers recalled that JFK moved to the left after the first shot so he was able to see JBC.  He said that when the second shot sounded JBC just disappeared.

I don't give a rat's ass what Nellie had to say.
Yes, that is how Powers remembered it but that doesn't establish how it actually happened. You continue to treat these witnesses as if their recollections are gospel.

No.  But I do consider them.  I look to see how their recollections fit with what others recalled.  If there are significant similarities I look to see if they are independent and I see how they fit with the rest of the evidence.  Unlike some, I don’t reject them because they don’t fit with what I have already concluded happened.

Now you are really stretching. I take Ozempic every week and I feel it when I stick the needle into my thigh. It isn't a terrible pain, but it isn't pleasant either.

A needle doesn’t destroy nerve endings. All I can say is that very often people do not feel bullets. I posted an example earlier. Google it yourself: “ do people always feel bullets when shot?”

We're supposed to believe that a JBC did not feel a puncture wound almost two inches deep into his thigh if he was not consumed by the overwhelming sensation of having a bullet traverse his chest a millisecond earlier.
 

I just go by what he said.  He said he never felt any pain until he tried to get out of the car at Parklabd.

More stretching by you. For the projectile to cause the chip on a concrete surface it would have to be traveling with a good deal of velocity.

It didn’t chip the concrete.There was just a smear that was analysed and contained lead and antimony. No concrete was missing. Shaneyfelt Ex. 26:

Under your scenario the bullet would have reached the apex of an arc and would coming down mainly by the force of gravity with most of the forward momentum expended. It makes no sense.

I would agree that makes no sense.  But 300 fps is not exactly slow. It is about 200 mph.

[John Corbett]

I was responding to your comment about the first shot.  It is understandable that no one was focused on JBC as they would be focused on JFK.  That may be why there are at least 22 witnesses who recalled how JFK reacted to it.  (One might wonder how they could all be so wrong -all in the same way - in recalling his reaction to it).

But for the second shot a few people were watching JBC.  Nellie turned to look at her husband at the time of the second shot.  She said he recoiled and she reached out and pulled him down onto her.  Gayle Newman said the second shot occurred as the car was passing right in front of her. You can see them standing down by the lamp post in Willis 5:


So Gayle Newman just reported what she saw when the second shot sounded: JBC was turned sideways and lay back on his seat.  Dave Powers recalled that JFK moved to the left after the first shot so he was able to see JBC.  He said that when the second shot sounded JBC just disappeared.
No.  But I do consider them.  I look to see how their recollections fit with what others recalled.  If there are significant similarities I look to see if they are independent and I see how they fit with the rest of the evidence.  Unlike some, I don’t reject them because they don’t fit with what I have already concluded happened.
A needle doesn’t destroy nerve endings. All I can say is that very often people do not feel bullets. I posted an example earlier. Google it yourself: “ do people always feel bullets when shot?”
I just go by what he said.  He said he never felt any pain until he tried to get out of the car at Parklabd.
It didn’t chip the concrete.There was just a smear that was analysed and contained lead and antimony. No concrete was missing. Shaneyfelt Ex. 26:

I would agree that makes no sense.  But 300 fps is not exactly slow. It is about 200 mph.

You keep saying things that don't make sense. If everybody was focused on the Kennedys before the shots and the first shot struck JFK as you believe, why would anyone shift their focus to JBC after seeing JFK reacting to being shot. What kind of sense does that make.

[Michael T. Griffith]

The obvious answer is that Connally's wrist was hit after Z272. By that time, being in shock and intense pain from the Z236 hit, Connally would not have even noticed the hit on his wrist.

It has always been self-evident that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets before Z313. JFK begins to react to his first wound around Z200, and Jackie starts to notice and react to JFK's reaction starting in Z202. By Z224, Jackie is staring intently at JFK, and JFK is clearly starting to bring his left hand up toward this throat, so obviously he was hit long before Z224.

Another bullet hits JFK just after he emerges from behind the freeway sign because his torso is visibly jolted sharply forward, and the position of his hands and elbows--particularly his elbows--changes dramatically, as they are flung upward and forward. The force and speed of these movements are quite startling when one compares Z226, where they are first discernible, to frame 232 just 1/3-second later.

Although the WC, and to a great extent the HSCA, ignored these movements, they are among the most dramatic and visible wounding events in the entire Zapruder film. WC apologists ignore this reaction because they realize it destroys the single-bullet theory in one fell swoop.

[John Corbett]

The obvious answer is that Connally's wrist was hit after Z272. By that time, being in shock and intense pain from the Z236 hit, Connally would not have even noticed the hit on his wrist.

Obvious to whom? People with poor eyesight?

It has always been self-evident that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets before Z313. JFK begins to react to his first wound around Z200, and Jackie starts to notice and react to JFK's reaction starting in Z202. By Z224, Jackie is staring intently at JFK, and JFK is clearly starting to bring his left hand up toward this throat, so obviously he was hit long before Z224.

Total BS. JFK's right hand was still moving downward from Z224-225. It was only at Z226 that both his arm started upward. That is the same frame that JBC's right arm suddenly flipped upward, Coincidence? I think not.

I don't know what you see that tells you JFK started reacting at Z202. Prior to Z202 JFK had been calmly waving to the few remaining spectators and was starting to lower his right hand. By Z202 he was starting to disappear behind the sign and he continued that downward movement until he was completely hidden. He first reappears at Z224 when we see his right hand and the left side of his torso at Z224. At Z225, he comes fully into view and if you compare the position of his right hand between Z224 and Z225, it is still moving down. It is necessary to magnify those frames in order to see it, but his right hand was still moving downward. Also at Z225, JFK's mouth is open, possibly a reaction to the bullet that passed through his upper torso a few frames earlier.

Another bullet hits JFK just after he emerges from behind the freeway sign because his torso is visibly jolted sharply forward, and the position of his hands and elbows--particularly his elbows--changes dramatically, as they are flung upward and forward. The force and speed of these movements are quite startling when one compares Z226, where they are first discernible, to frame 232 just 1/3-second later.

Nonsense. JFK was not jolted forward. That's his reaction to the bullet passing through his throat. It's amazing how you think JFK was hit twice in the space of a few seconds, JBC hit a few seconds later, then JFK hit in the head a few more seconds later. That's four shots into the limo but only two bullets were ever recovered. One in the limo and one at Parkland. How do you explain that?

Although the WC, and to a great extent the HSCA, ignored these movements, they are among the most dramatic and visible wounding events in the entire Zapruder film. WC apologists ignore this reaction because they realize it destroys the single-bullet theory in one fell swoop.

How can someone ignore something that exists only in your imagination.

Your material hasn't improved one iota from when you were posting it on the old Prodigy service back in 1991. I wish I had a way back machine that could retrieve that. To the best of my knowledge, Prodigy is no more and with it any archive they might have kept. To be fair, I'm sure some of the things I posted back then would seem humorous to me today as well. In 1991, I was a newbie to both the internet and the JFKA. I've learned a lot about both in the past 35 years. You seem to be stuck in neutral.