Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

If the "second had not completely died out before the third shot sounded" that could not possibly be two shots from Oswald's rifle. You keep arguing for things that are impossible.

If you know how long a rifle shot in Dealey Plaza would have persisted, then you should provide it along with the source.

There was a large post office building a bit more than 600 feet (188 m measured on Google maps, which is 616 feet) directly south of the TSBD. There were also buildings on the east side over that distance, pavement and concrete structures in Dealey Plaza. There was also the triple underpass about 500-550 feet south west of the SN as well as a railway embankment all along the west side. There were also reflective surfaces in between the TSBD and the underpass. So it was a real reverberation chamber:
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Sound from the 6th floor TSBD would have reflected off all those surfaces and then back to the people standing on the north side of Elm St. where Mary Woodward was.  The sound wave front would have taken a tad more than half a second: .55 seconds (speed of sound at 68F is 1127 fps) to directly reach the Post Office building and a bit more for sound waves reflected from the street, buildings along Houston and other concrete structures.  The sound then would have bounced back off the Post Office building as well as back off the triple underpass and arrived at the ears of Mary Woodward.  So she would definitely have heard the first round of continuous echos (reverberation) for at least 1.2 seconds after the blast.

But the reverberation doesn't just end on that first reflection.  It would have gone back and forth a bit. The reverberations from the first reflection back off the TSBD would have traveled south toward the Post Office building and bounced again of that large surface, arriving at Mary Woodward over the next 1.2 seconds. Same with the sound reflecting from the triple underpass back off the building along Houston and structures in between, although with a bit less travel time.

So unless the sound reflected only one time before ending completely, the reverberations could easily have continued for about 2.4 seconds.

Mary Woodward said that there was a third shot within the period of reverberation of the second shot.  She recalled three distinct shots.  She said she would go to her grave swearing that there were three shots. See this Youtube clip. Her statement begins about 2:50.

[John Corbett]

If you know how long a rifle shot in Dealey Plaza would have persisted, then you should provide it along with the source.

If you are going to postulate that the sound of a single shot could reverberate for 2 seconds or more, the burden is on you to prove that.

There was a large post office building a bit more than 600 feet (188 m measured on Google maps, which is 616 feet) directly south of the TSBD. There were also buildings on the east side over that distance, pavement and concrete structures in Dealey Plaza. There was also the triple underpass about 500-550 feet south west of the SN as well as a railway embankment all along the west side. There were also reflective surfaces in between the TSBD and the underpass. So it was a real reverberation chamber:
. 

Sound from the 6th floor TSBD would have reflected off all those surfaces and then back to the people standing on the north side of Elm St. where Mary Woodward was.  The sound wave front would have taken a tad more than half a second: .55 seconds (speed of sound at 68F is 1127 fps) to directly reach the Post Office building and a bit more for sound waves reflected from the street, buildings along Houston and other concrete structures.  The sound then would have bounced back off the Post Office building as well as back off the triple underpass and arrived at the ears of Mary Woodward.  So she would definitely have heard the first round of continuous echos (reverberation) for at least 1.2 seconds after the blast.

But the reverberation doesn't just end on that first reflection.  It would have gone back and forth a bit. The reverberations from the first reflection back off the TSBD would have traveled south toward the Post Office building and bounced again of that large surface, arriving at Mary Woodward over the next 1.2 seconds. Same with the sound reflecting from the triple underpass back off the building along Houston and structures in between, although with a bit less travel time.

So unless the sound reflected only one time before ending completely, the reverberations could easily have continued for about 2.4 seconds.

Mary Woodward said that there was a third shot within the period of reverberation of the second shot.  She recalled three distinct shots.  She said she would go to her grave swearing that there were three shots. See this Youtube clip. Her statement begins about 2:50.

Wouldn't it be easier just to scrap your silly theory and start over than to keep coming up with ever more ridiculous explanations. I'm still waiting for you to explain how Oswald shot JBC in the back at a time JBC had spun around and was facing him.

[Andrew Mason]

If you are going to postulate that the sound of a single shot could reverberate for 2 seconds or more, the burden is on you to prove that.

I have.  I cited evidence from Mary Woodward. You just said she must be wrong-that she did not hear what she swore she heard. I provided other evidence that the shots were in that kind of rapid succession. 

You have provided nothing except your interpretation of equivocal head turns in the zfilm and you suggest that all that evidence must be wrong.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Oswald shot JBC in the back at a time JBC had spun around and was facing him.

The shot occurred with JBC in that position. Nellie told Dr. Shires that he was turned around to the right when he was hit in the back. Shires commented that this would explain why the back of his forearm was turned toward his chest.  JBC thought he had started to turn back around when he was hit but could not say for sure how far he had gotten.

Gayle Newman said the second shot sounded after the car had been 10 feet from her. She saw that JBC grabbed his chest and lay back:


In her first interview by Jay Watson of WFAA TV within an hour or so of the assassination (before it had been announced that the President was dead) Gayle Newman said that Connally was turned to his side and he grabbed his stomach.

How the bullet passed through his body requires an anatomical understanding of the human torso when it is turned like that.  The shoulders can turn without changing the position of the shoulder blade.  JBC was hit in the armpit which fits with having the armpit turned to face the rifle.

So the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the second shot occurred close to the third shot which necessarily means JBC was turned sideways right as that is his position at z250-270 … just as Gayle Newman reported seeing less than an hour after seeing Connally hit by second shot.

[Zeon Mason]

Here is Andrew Mason's drawing showing how he thinks the bullet exiting JFK's throat could have struck JBC in the thigh without first passing through his torso:


Here are some photos which he says simulate JBC's position at Z193:

Even the photo looks to me that JBC is turned farther to the right than we see in Z193 but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say the photo acurately depicts JBC's position. The drawing shows an exaggerated turn to the right and even then shows there was barely enough room for the bullet to miss JBC's torso and still find his thigh. Note how dissimilar these two representations are. The drawing shows an extreme turn to the right. Note how much further forward JBC's left shoulder is in the drawing than in the photo. Note how much more it is turned to the right in the drawing than in the photo.

So even using his photo of JBC's simulated position, JBC's left shoulder is not turned anywhere near far enough to create an open path from JFK's throat to JBC's thigh. He has to exaggerate JBC's position at Z193 to even show a theoretical possibility of his SBT 2.0 scenario. This is why I said earlier it is impossible.

EDIT: I should have included the actual Z193 frame when I first posted this so I am adding it now:


Compare JBC's shoulder turn in the actual frame to Andrew's photos and drawing.

Andrew’s  Z193 drawing matches more closely with the way JC had turned himself almost 180 degrees at Z270 than it does with how JC appears at Z193.

Not sure that a VIP Statesman like JC would sit in a limo jump seat with his legs spread wide apart as that might invite some photograph depicting such posture which might be used to suggest the VIP was undignified.

So that’s why I think that JohnMs diagram of how JC had rotated both legs towards the right would facilitate a more comfortable as well as a more appropriate posture for a VIP. Plus it aligns the right wrist with hat upside down with a bullet path thru JCs upper body with a  trajectory line from TSBD at Z224.

[John Corbett]

I have.  I cited evidence from Mary Woodward. You just said she must be wrong-that she did not hear what she swore she heard. I provided other evidence that the shots were in that kind of rapid succession. 

Too rapid to have both been fired by Oswald. Either those witnesses were wrong or there were two gunmen. I know which one I am betting on.

You have provided nothing except your interpretation of equivocal head turns in the zfilm and you suggest that all that evidence must be wrong.

I don't recall ever having used the head turns of the limo occupants as evidence of anything. You must be thinking of Graves. I have not suggested that all that evidence must be wrong. I have stated that your cherry-picked witnesses who put the last two shots close together are wrong. Every one of them.

The shot occurred with JBC in that position. Nellie told Dr. Shires that he was turned around to the right when he was hit in the back. Shires commented that this would explain why the back of his forearm was turned toward his chest.  JBC thought he had started to turn back around when he was hit but could not say for sure how far he had gotten.

This is your turn to dismiss what a witness said. JBC said he was facing almost forward when he felt the bullet hit him in the back. That pretty much blows your theory out of the water. We know he wasn't shot in the back at Z271 because that would have been impossible with JBC facing Oswald at that frame.
You never have explained how that could have happened.

Gayle Newman said the second shot sounded after the car had been 10 feet from her. She saw that JBC grabbed his chest and lay back:

Here we go again with a cherry-picket uncorroborated witness. You have built a house of cards with these flawed accounts of what happened.

In her first interview by Jay Watson of WFAA TV within an hour or so of the assassination (before it had been announced that the President was dead) Gayle Newman said that Connally was turned to his side and he grabbed his stomach.

Kind of like this at Z245:
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z245.jpg

How the bullet passed through his body requires an anatomical understanding of the human torso when it is turned like that.  The shoulders can turn without changing the position of the shoulder blade.  JBC was hit in the armpit which fits with having the armpit turned to face the rifle.

JBC's back at his armpit wasn't facing Oswald. It was turned away from Oswald making an entry wound then impossible. How you could look at Z271 and think it was even remotely possible for Oswald to shoot JBC in the back at that frame is truly mind boggling.

So the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the second shot occurred close to the third shot which necessarily means JBC was turned sideways right as that is his position at z250-270 … just as Gayle Newman reported seeing less than an hour after seeing Connally hit by second shot.

The Z-film alone thoroughly demolishes that scenario.