The Brown Paper Bag

[Michael Capasse]

The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it.

more presumptuous garbage.

That bag is 38in by about 8in wide - about 2 sq ft of hard paper and tape
X2 because it's a bag. How many times can you fold that on your person without looking odd? - or without making a sound?

4 Sq ft of hard paper and tape under a light jacket. Frazier saw no sign of it.
No reason at all to hide it. Buell will see it tomorrow. lol - or are we back to the unreliable witness BS when YOU choose?:

Frazier said he wore a light gray jacket to Irving Thursday night. - How did it end up in Oak Cliff on Friday?

[John Mytton]

Frazier said he wore a light gray jacket to Irving Thursday night. - How did it end up in Oak Cliff on Friday?

Frazier who sat next to Oswald for a half an hour on the way to the TSBD recalls never seeing CE163 before, so how did it end up in the Depository? Frazier's powers of observation regarding Oswald's clothing was not so good.

Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Frazier recalls on "that day" which throughout the testimony was obviously referring to the 22nd, and Thursday was referred to as "Thursday", Frazier said Oswald had on a light grey jacket, yet the dark blue/grey jacket was found in the TSBD??

Mr. BALL - You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364. That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was light gray.
Mr. BALL - You mentioned it was woolen.
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL - You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

When Ball was specifically talking about Thursday, Frazier says it was the "same grey jacket"? How do you think Oswald can be wearing the same jacket on the way home on Thursday and back to work on Friday? And the only jacket found at the TSBD was the dark blue/grey jacket?

Mr. BALL - On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't
Mr. BALL - Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr. FRAZIER - That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr. BALL - That same gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Marina "seems", which isn't exactly definitive, to think that she saw Oswald wearing CE162 but the CT's say she lied a lot, so take that with a grain of salt.

Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

So in conclusion, Frazier never recalls seeing Oswald's dark jacket before and says that Oswald was wearing a light grey jacket on that day(22nd), as I initially said Frazier's powers of observation were not that good!
Therefore Oswald wore the the dark grey/blue jacket to Irving and back to the TSBD, and the light grey zipper jacket was back at his rooming house, the jacket that Roberts saw Oswald zipping up.

JohnM

[Zeon Mason]

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

And CE 163, the Darker Blue Gray jacket was found in the Domino room TSBD?

So JohnM explanation is that we just can’t trust Marina or Fraziers perceptions therefore Oswald must have been wearing the CE  163 the blue gray jacket when he went to work?

So then Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting NOT wearing ANY jacket?

That would have to be the case if CE 162 was at the boarding house and CE 163 was found in the Domino room. ( exception would be that the CE 163 blue gray jacket was moved by DPD from presumably found at boarding house to the domino room a month later ,  which is even more bizzare.)

William Whaley the taxi driver said he saw Oswald wearing a jacket albeit a bit confusing how Whaley described the jacket.

Earlene Roberts compounds the problem by seeing Oswald just wearing a LIGHT colored shirt with long sleeves when he entered the boarding house.

NO WONDER it took 25 volumes of WC to explain the LN theory. 😳

[John Mytton]

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

And CE 163, the Darker Blue Gray jacket was found in the Domino room TSBD?

So JohnM explanation is that we just can’t trust Marina or Fraziers perceptions therefore Oswald must have been wearing the CE  163 the blue gray jacket when he went to work?

So then Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting NOT wearing ANY jacket?

That would have to be the case if CE 162 was at the boarding house and CE 163 was found in the Domino room. ( exception would be that the CE 163 blue gray jacket was moved by DPD from presumably found at boarding house to the domino room a month later ,  which is even more bizzare.)

William Whaley the taxi driver said he saw Oswald wearing a jacket albeit a bit confusing how Whaley described the jacket.

Earlene Roberts compounds the problem by seeing Oswald just wearing a LIGHT colored shirt with long sleeves when he entered the boarding house.

NO WONDER it took 25 volumes of WC to explain the LN theory. 😳

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

Marina doesn't remember the last time she saw CE163, which is odd considering that CT's believe that CE163 was at the house she was staying at for almost the last two weeks? She also didn't see Oswald get dressed that morning, so she hasn't a clue about what he was wearing.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit 163?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.

JohnM

[John Mytton]

From the list of items taken from Ruth Paine's house, there is no items of Oswald's clothing listed. And considering Oswald was living at Beckley street it makes sense for Oswald to keep all his clothes where he spent the majority of his time.

I found it a bit weird that Oswald would wear the same clothes all weekend but according to Ruth, Oswald brought out some underwear and shirts to be washed and then left with clean clothing, so presumably he must have taken some fresh clothes out to Irving as well?

Mr. JENNER - Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. PAINE - No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.

The owner of the Rooming house says that there was a Washeteria not very far away which Oswald seem to use when he didn't see his wife for some time or I guess for emergencies but otherwise Oswald still made his wife wash his clothes.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: did he, that weekend, that was the weekend before the assassination, on a Saturday, make a trip to a place where they wash clothes?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I think that he did go across to that washateria. I think he did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go any place, go out of the house except for that on that weekend?
Mrs. JOHNSON. That's the only time and I had just forgotten that but I do remember he carried some clothes out of that house that morning and the washateria is right across the street, less than a block.
Mr. BALL. But he left his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. And he wasn't gone long and I didn't see him return with any clothes but I do know he was gone just about long enough to do a wash.







The list of items taken from Beckley street sensibly had Oswald's clothes contained in his room, so why would Oswald keep a solitary jacket at the Paine residence and limit himself to his other jacket, it doesn't make sense and if for whatever reason Oswald didn't end up shooting the President, why would he leave one of his jackets at the Paine's house and again limit himself to having one jacket for another week?





Oswald kept his clothes at the Beckley street rooming house because that is simply logical and wore the same jacket out to Irving and back to work. Leaving a jacket at the Paine's and then swapping his jacket and then leaving another jacket at the Paine's is a bit silly!

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

You didn't ask a question. You stated an obvious fact.

{quote]
It could have been anytime that week but Thursday seems the most likely. He could have made it during the lunch break or any time he knew the wrapping station would be unattended.The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it. Had it been discovered, he could have just told Frazier it was for the curtain rods he was going to get.I'm guessing you meant to say until the next morning. We don't know what time he put the rifle in the bag but if it was me, I wouldn't have waited until the last minute. I would have done it the night before after everyone went to bed. 
None of that would have been difficult Yup.


You are deliberately missing the point. The question was how anybody could handle that bag in the way described and only leave one partial print?

"Longevity on Porous Surfaces
Porous materials, such as paper, cardboard, untreated wood, and fabric, absorb the oils and sweat from fingerprints, which can make the prints less visible initially but sometimes more stable within the material itself. On such surfaces, fingerprints may fade within hours or days under normal conditions, especially if exposed to moisture, heat, or physical handling."

If you don't like my source, you are free to provide your own.
If only you could prove that one witness accurately remembered what he saw.
Oswald on the other hand did leave prints on the bag on the 6th floor so we know he handled it.
Since he left his rifle behind, I see no reason he would be concerned about doing the same with the bag.
So why did you cite it as evidence Frazier was accurate in his description of the bag.
That's why the people doing the polygraph test establish a baseline for how nervous the person is to begin with. They look for spikes in the three measurements for indications of deceit.
I know he got the description of the bag wrong and still passed the polygraph which indicates to me he believed his mistaken recollection about the size of the bag.
I've already explained that to you. The subject is started off with mundane questions to establish a base line for his stress level. It's when there are spikes in the stress level that indicate willful deceit.
As best he remembered it. That doesn't establish he remembered what he saw correctly. It's very common for eyewitnesses to get details wrong, especially when the detail wouldn't have seemed important at the time it was observed.


A lie is when you knowingly tell a falsehood. I'm sure Frazier honestly believes what he said he saw. He just didn't accurately remember what he saw. Very common for eyewitnesses to do that. That's been explained to you many times but you refuse to accept that.
This tells me nothing of any significance. But if I understand your argument it is that Frazier lied without knowing that he was lying? What a crock! All this really shows is that you are completely unable to weigh evidence honestly, because your massive bias gets in the way!


You still don't get it. Being honestly mistaken about something is not the same as lying. I never accused Frazier of lying. Why do you keep insisting that I have.
And the bag that was actually found on the 6th floor that was significantly longer than Frazier remembered.
I've already cited a source that indicates prints on a porous surface can disappear in a matter of hours. Oswald would likely have taken the rifle out of the bag sometime around noon. That is the last time he was known to have handled it.
No I haven't. Do you have a reliable source for those reports?
I will as soon as you establish Day freaked out.
Because the accounts of people who were there often conflict with the forensic evidence. I place far more faith in the latter.

You didn't ask a question. You stated an obvious fact.

No, I said you would have to believe there was a rifle stored at Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63.

It's pretty obvious that you believe exactly that without being able to provide a shred of proof for it.

"Longevity on Porous Surfaces
Porous materials, such as paper, cardboard, untreated wood, and fabric, absorb the oils and sweat from fingerprints, which can make the prints less visible initially but sometimes more stable within the material itself. On such surfaces, fingerprints may fade within hours or days under normal conditions, especially if exposed to moisture, heat, or physical handling."

If you don't like my source, you are free to provide your own.

Oh, I agree that prints don't last long on certain materials. But in this case there is a partial print left from carrying the package in the cup of his hand, and no print for picking up the parcel from the backseat of Frazier's car, only a moment sooner. Kinda strange, don't you think? How did Oswald manage to pick up that package from the backseat of the car and leave no print? And how did he manage to fold the bag in the sniper's nest and leave no print?

If only you could prove that one witness accurately remembered what he saw.

Don't have to. He passed a polygraph!

Oswald on the other hand did leave prints on the bag on the 6th floor so we know he handled it.

If only you could prove that bag ever left the TSBD to begin with.

Since he left his rifle behind, I see no reason he would be concerned about doing the same with the bag.

Just one more reason for not using a paper bag! If it was Oswald who left the rifle there, he would have been far better off using a duffel bag from Ruth Paine's garage to conceal the rifle in.
That way he could have actually walked out of the building with the rifle. None of it makes any sense.

So why did you cite it as evidence Frazier was accurate in his description of the bag.

Because, even if the polygraph is far from perfect, it doesn't mean it's worthless. Frazier passed the test and you instantly started to look for ways to rather stupidly explain away the result by claiming Frazier could have lied while believing he spoke the truth. You don't even understand just how lame that is? The fact remains that Frazier passed the test and that was enough to cause massive panic by Lt Day!

That's why the people doing the polygraph test establish a baseline for how nervous the person is to begin with. They look for spikes in the three measurements for indications of deceit.

So what? That's what they would have done with Frazier as well, right?

I know he got the description of the bag wrong and still passed the polygraph which indicates to me he believed his mistaken recollection about the size of the bag.

No. You don't know anything of the kind. You just don't want to accept that he got the description of the bag right and thus passed the test.

As best he remembered it. That doesn't establish he remembered what he saw correctly. It's very common for eyewitnesses to get details wrong, especially when the detail wouldn't have seemed important at the time it was observed.

It doesn't mean he remembered it incorrectly. Again... there is no way you can prove that the bag from the 6th floor was the same one Oswald carried. It's all wishful thinking on your part and that is what is causing you to question and doubt anything that destroys your silly opinion. You can be a stubborn as you like, but that still doesn't make you right and it never will.

If I have to chose between Frazier's real time observations and statement and your opinion you always lose!

A lie is when you knowingly tell a falsehood. I'm sure Frazier honestly believes what he said he saw. He just didn't accurately remember what he saw. Very common for eyewitnesses to do that. That's been explained to you many times but you refuse to accept that.

Classic LN If a witness says something I don't like, the witness must be wrong, because my opinion always supersedes what somebody say who was actually there and saw what happened.

You're right. I don't accept your opinion, exactly because it's an opinion for which there isn't a shred of proof. A print on a paper bag made from TSBD materials and found at the TSBD where Oswald worked proves nothing and it certainly doesn't prove that this was the bag Oswald carried. You desperately want it to be, just like Ltd Day did on day one, but the facts are clear and the one who doesn't want to accept them is you.

No I haven't. Do you have a reliable source for those reports?

So you don't know the evidence! And yes, I have a reliable source; I have the reports themself! They are available on line. Do some research before you make comments!

Because the accounts of people who were there often conflict with the forensic evidence. I place far more faith in the latter.

No, you place more faith in your opinion which you somehow incorrectly consider to be "forensic evidence".

[Martin Weidmann]

Marina doesn't remember the last time she saw CE163, which is odd considering that CT's believe that CE163 was at the house she was staying at for almost the last two weeks? She also didn't see Oswald get dressed that morning, so she hasn't a clue about what he was wearing.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit 163?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.

JohnM

which is odd considering that CT's believe that CE163 was at the house she was staying at for almost the last two weeks?

Really? Which CTs would that be? I've never spoken to one who believes that.

[Martin Weidmann]

From the list of items taken from Ruth Paine's house, there is no items of Oswald's clothing listed. And considering Oswald was living at Beckley street it makes sense for Oswald to keep all his clothes where he spent the majority of his time.

I found it a bit weird that Oswald would wear the same clothes all weekend but according to Ruth, Oswald brought out some underwear and shirts to be washed and then left with clean clothing, so presumably he must have taken some fresh clothes out to Irving as well?

Mr. JENNER - Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. PAINE - No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.

The owner of the Rooming house says that there was a Washeteria not very far away which Oswald seem to use when he didn't see his wife for some time or I guess for emergencies but otherwise Oswald still made his wife wash his clothes.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: did he, that weekend, that was the weekend before the assassination, on a Saturday, make a trip to a place where they wash clothes?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I think that he did go across to that washateria. I think he did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go any place, go out of the house except for that on that weekend?
Mrs. JOHNSON. That's the only time and I had just forgotten that but I do remember he carried some clothes out of that house that morning and the washateria is right across the street, less than a block.
Mr. BALL. But he left his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. And he wasn't gone long and I didn't see him return with any clothes but I do know he was gone just about long enough to do a wash.







The list of items taken from Beckley street sensibly had Oswald's clothes contained in his room, so why would Oswald keep a solitary jacket at the Paine residence and limit himself to his other jacket, it doesn't make sense and if for whatever reason Oswald didn't end up shooting the President, why would he leave one of his jackets at the Paine's house and again limit himself to having one jacket for another week?





Oswald kept his clothes at the Beckley street rooming house because that is simply logical and wore the same jacket out to Irving and back to work. Leaving a jacket at the Paine's and then swapping his jacket and then leaving another jacket at the Paine's is a bit silly!

JohnM

Oswald kept his clothes at the Beckley street rooming house because that is simply logical and wore the same jacket out to Irving and back to work. Leaving a jacket at the Paine's and then swapping his jacket and then leaving another jacket at the Paine's is a bit silly!

Oswald worked in an extremely dusty warehouse. At the end of the day his clothes must have been full of dust, and so would his jacket be. It makes sense to have one clean jacket in Irving and switch it with the dirty one during every visit. So, leaving the TSBD wearing CE 162 and switching it for a clean CE 163 actually makes a lot of sense.