The Brown Paper Bag

[Martin Weidmann]

That's easy. Will these get harder as we go?
It could have been anytime that week but Thursday seems the most likely. He could have made it during the lunch break or any time he knew the wrapping station would be unattended.The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it. Had it been discovered, he could have just told Frazier it was for the curtain rods he was going to get.I'm guessing you meant to say until the next morning. We don't know what time he put the rifle in the bag but if it was me, I wouldn't have waited until the last minute. I would have done it the night before after everyone went to bed. 
None of that would have been difficultYup.It's never been established the top of the bag was tucked under his armpit.So?A polygraph can indicate if a person is saying something he knows to be untrue. It measures stress through blood pressure, breathing rate, and a galvanic skit response. If he person believes he is telling the truth, even if he is wrong, there's no reason to think he will show stress.See above. For Frazier to pass the polygraph, he only had to fool himself which he apparently did.Still relying on Frazier to establish the characteristics of a bag he only glance at.What's there to explain? Nothing on your list seems the least bit improbable.

Whoever handled that makeshift bag managed to do so while only puting a partial finger print and palm print on the bag. Why couldn't that someone have been the guy who left the prints.

That's easy. Will these get harder as we go?

If it is so easy, why can't you answer the question?

It could have been anytime that week but Thursday seems the most likely. He could have made it during the lunch break or any time he knew the wrapping station would be unattended.The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it. Had it been discovered, he could have just told Frazier it was for the curtain rods he was going to get.I'm guessing you meant to say until the next morning. We don't know what time he put the rifle in the bag but if it was me, I wouldn't have waited until the last minute. I would have done it the night before after everyone went to bed. 
None of that would have been difficult Yup.

You are deliberately missing the point. The question was how anybody could handle that bag in the way described and only leave one partial print?

It's never been established the top of the bag was tucked under his armpit.

Except for the fact that the only witness who actually saw it said so. You just don't like it. On the other hand you have not a shred of evidence that Oswald carried the 6th floor bag instead, and there you are instantly accepting that as "fact" when it clearly is anything but!

So?

A killer leaving evidence behind at the crime scene when he easily could have disposed of it and made it disappear, actually makes sense to you?

A polygraph can indicate if a person is saying something he knows to be untrue. It measures stress through blood pressure, breathing rate, and a galvanic skit response. If he person believes he is telling the truth, even if he is wrong, there's no reason to think he will show stress.

Oh boy. Polygraphs are far from perfect, I'll grant you that. But in this case we're dealing with a 19 years old kid who was arrested as a possible suspect in the murder of the President.
If that didn't produce stress, nothing would. Frazier doesn't have to believe he is telling the truth. He just has to tell the truth and when he did he had Lt Day in a massive panic.

See above. For Frazier to pass the polygraph, he only had to fool himself which he apparently did.

And you have of course evidence that Frazier fooled himself? Either that or you're full of it!

Exactly which is why we wouldn't expect Frazier to show any stress if he BELIEVED he was telling the truth.

So, a 19 year old arrested innocently as a suspect for killing the President is somebody you wouldn't expect to show stress. What planet do you live on?

Again, all Frazier had to do is tell the truth and that's what he did. And that's why he passed the polygraph. You seem to imply that he was lying but somehow believed he told the truth about a paper bag? Really?

I took a polygraph as a condition for employment once. I was asked a number of mundane questions to establish a baseline for my anxiety level. A polygraph shows spikes in the stress level when a person knowingly lies.

This tells me nothing of any significance. But if I understand your argument it is that Frazier lied without knowing that he was lying? What a crock! All this really shows is that you are completely unable to weigh evidence honestly, because your massive bias gets in the way!

Still relying on Frazier to establish the characteristics of a bag he only glance at.

Of course. And you rely on the fact that he was wrong without actually any evidence for it, except of course your "opinion"

Whoever handled that makeshift bag managed to do so while only puting a partial finger print and palm print on the bag. Why couldn't that someone have been the guy who left the prints.

No. If Oswald didn't make the bag, it was made by somebody else who did not leave any prints on the bag that were ever found, possibly because he wore gloves.

Have you ever read the reports about how Lt Day freaked out after Frazier passed the polygraph and confimed that the bag he had seen was a flimsy supermarket bag?

As yourself why Day freaked out like that and when you come up with an answer, let me know.

It has always amazed me how LNs have the audacity to think they know more about events they never witnessed than the people who were actually there.

[John Corbett]

That's easy. Will these get harder as we go?

If it is so easy, why can't you answer the question?

You didn't ask a question. You stated an obvious fact.

{quote]
It could have been anytime that week but Thursday seems the most likely. He could have made it during the lunch break or any time he knew the wrapping station would be unattended.The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it. Had it been discovered, he could have just told Frazier it was for the curtain rods he was going to get.I'm guessing you meant to say until the next morning. We don't know what time he put the rifle in the bag but if it was me, I wouldn't have waited until the last minute. I would have done it the night before after everyone went to bed. 
None of that would have been difficult Yup.
[/quote]

You are deliberately missing the point. The question was how anybody could handle that bag in the way described and only leave one partial print?
[/quote]
"Longevity on Porous Surfaces
Porous materials, such as paper, cardboard, untreated wood, and fabric, absorb the oils and sweat from fingerprints, which can make the prints less visible initially but sometimes more stable within the material itself. On such surfaces, fingerprints may fade within hours or days under normal conditions, especially if exposed to moisture, heat, or physical handling."

If you don't like my source, you are free to provide your own.

It's never been established the top of the bag was tucked under his armpit.

Except for the fact that the only witness who actually saw it said so. You just don't like it. On the other hand you have not a shred of evidence that Oswald carried the 6th floor bag instead, and there you are instantly accepting that as "fact" when it clearly is anything but!

If only you could prove that one witness accurately remembered what he saw.
Oswald on the other hand did leave prints on the bag on the 6th floor so we know he handled it.

So?

A killer leaving evidence behind at the crime scene when he easily could have disposed of it and made it disappear, actually makes sense to you?

Since he left his rifle behind, I see no reason he would be concerned about doing the same with the bag.
[quote


A polygraph can indicate if a person is saying something he knows to be untrue. It measures stress through blood pressure, breathing rate, and a galvanic skit response. If he person believes he is telling the truth, even if he is wrong, there's no reason to think he will show stress.

Oh boy. Polygraphs are far from perfect,
[/quote]

So why did you cite it as evidence Frazier was accurate in his description of the bag.

 I'll grant you that. But in this case we're dealing with a 19 years old kid who was arrested as a possible suspect in the murder of the President.
If that didn't produce stress, nothing would. Frazier doesn't have to believe he is telling the truth. He just has to tell the truth and when he did he had Lt Day in a massive panic.

That's why the people doing the polygraph test establish a baseline for how nervous the person is to begin with. They look for spikes in the three measurements for indications of deceit.

See above. For Frazier to pass the polygraph, he only had to fool himself which he apparently did.

And you have of course evidence that Frazier fooled himself? Either that or you're full of it!

I know he got the description of the bag wrong and still passed the polygraph which indicates to me he believed his mistaken recollection about the size of the bag.

Exactly which is why we wouldn't expect Frazier to show any stress if he BELIEVED he was telling the truth.

So, a 19 year old arrested innocently as a suspect for killing the President is somebody you wouldn't expect to show stress. What planet do you live on?

I've already explained that to you. The subject is started off with mundane questions to establish a base line for his stress level. It's when there are spikes in the stress level that indicate willful deceit.

Again, all Frazier had to do is tell the truth and that's what he did.

As best he remembered it. That doesn't establish he remembered what he saw correctly. It's very common for eyewitnesses to get details wrong, especially when the detail wouldn't have seemed important at the time it was observed.

And that's why he passed the polygraph. You seem to imply that he was lying but somehow believed he told the truth about a paper bag? Really?

A lie is when you knowingly tell a falsehood. I'm sure Frazier honestly believes what he said he saw. He just didn't accurately remember what he saw. Very common for eyewitnesses to do that. That's been explained to you many times but you refuse to accept that.

I took a polygraph as a condition for employment once. I was asked a number of mundane questions to establish a baseline for my anxiety level. A polygraph shows spikes in the stress level when a person knowingly lies.

This tells me nothing of any significance. But if I understand your argument it is that Frazier lied without knowing that he was lying? What a crock! All this really shows is that you are completely unable to weigh evidence honestly, because your massive bias gets in the way!
[/quote]

You still don't get it. Being honestly mistaken about something is not the same as lying. I never accused Frazier of lying. Why do you keep insisting that I have.

Still relying on Frazier to establish the characteristics of a bag he only glance at.

Of course. And you rely on the fact that he was wrong without actually any evidence for it, except of course your "opinion"

And the bag that was actually found on the 6th floor that was significantly longer than Frazier remembered.

Whoever handled that makeshift bag managed to do so while only puting a partial finger print and palm print on the bag. Why couldn't that someone have been the guy who left the prints.

No. If Oswald didn't make the bag, it was made by somebody else who did not leave any prints on the bag that were ever found, possibly because he wore gloves.

I've already cited a source that indicates prints on a porous surface can disappear in a matter of hours. Oswald would likely have taken the rifle out of the bag sometime around noon. That is the last time he was known to have handled it.

Have you ever read the reports about how Lt Day freaked out after Frazier passed the polygraph and confimed that the bag he had seen was a flimsy supermarket bag?

No I haven't. Do you have a reliable source for those reports?

As yourself why Day freaked out like that and when you come up with an answer, let me know.

I will as soon as you establish Day freaked out.

It has always amazed me how LNs have the audacity to think they know more about events they never witnessed than the people who were actually there.

Because the accounts of people who were there often conflict with the forensic evidence. I place far more faith in the latter.

[Martin Weidmann]

Duplicate

[Michael Capasse]

The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it.

more presumptuous garbage.

That bag is 38in by about 8in wide - about 2 sq ft of hard paper and tape
X2 because it's a bag. How many times can you fold that on your person without looking odd? - or without making a sound?

4 Sq ft of hard paper and tape under a light jacket. Frazier saw no sign of it.
No reason at all to hide it. Buell will see it tomorrow. lol - or are we back to the unreliable witness BS when YOU choose?:

Frazier said he wore a light gray jacket to Irving Thursday night. - How did it end up in Oak Cliff on Friday?

[John Mytton]

Frazier said he wore a light gray jacket to Irving Thursday night. - How did it end up in Oak Cliff on Friday?

Frazier who sat next to Oswald for a half an hour on the way to the TSBD recalls never seeing CE163 before, so how did it end up in the Depository? Frazier's powers of observation regarding Oswald's clothing was not so good.

Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Frazier recalls on "that day" which throughout the testimony was obviously referring to the 22nd, and Thursday was referred to as "Thursday", Frazier said Oswald had on a light grey jacket, yet the dark blue/grey jacket was found in the TSBD??

Mr. BALL - You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364. That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was light gray.
Mr. BALL - You mentioned it was woolen.
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL - You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

When Ball was specifically talking about Thursday, Frazier says it was the "same grey jacket"? How do you think Oswald can be wearing the same jacket on the way home on Thursday and back to work on Friday? And the only jacket found at the TSBD was the dark blue/grey jacket?

Mr. BALL - On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't
Mr. BALL - Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr. FRAZIER - That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr. BALL - That same gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Marina "seems", which isn't exactly definitive, to think that she saw Oswald wearing CE162 but the CT's say she lied a lot, so take that with a grain of salt.

Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

So in conclusion, Frazier never recalls seeing Oswald's dark jacket before and says that Oswald was wearing a light grey jacket on that day(22nd), as I initially said Frazier's powers of observation were not that good!
Therefore Oswald wore the the dark grey/blue jacket to Irving and back to the TSBD, and the light grey zipper jacket was back at his rooming house, the jacket that Roberts saw Oswald zipping up.

JohnM

[Zeon Mason]

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

And CE 163, the Darker Blue Gray jacket was found in the Domino room TSBD?

So JohnM explanation is that we just can’t trust Marina or Fraziers perceptions therefore Oswald must have been wearing the CE  163 the blue gray jacket when he went to work?

So then Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting NOT wearing ANY jacket?

That would have to be the case if CE 162 was at the boarding house and CE 163 was found in the Domino room. ( exception would be that the CE 163 blue gray jacket was moved by DPD from presumably found at boarding house to the domino room a month later ,  which is even more bizzare.)

William Whaley the taxi driver said he saw Oswald wearing a jacket albeit a bit confusing how Whaley described the jacket.

Earlene Roberts compounds the problem by seeing Oswald just wearing a LIGHT colored shirt with long sleeves when he entered the boarding house.

NO WONDER it took 25 volumes of WC to explain the LN theory. 😳

[John Mytton]

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

And CE 163, the Darker Blue Gray jacket was found in the Domino room TSBD?

So JohnM explanation is that we just can’t trust Marina or Fraziers perceptions therefore Oswald must have been wearing the CE  163 the blue gray jacket when he went to work?

So then Oswald left the TSBD after the shooting NOT wearing ANY jacket?

That would have to be the case if CE 162 was at the boarding house and CE 163 was found in the Domino room. ( exception would be that the CE 163 blue gray jacket was moved by DPD from presumably found at boarding house to the domino room a month later ,  which is even more bizzare.)

William Whaley the taxi driver said he saw Oswald wearing a jacket albeit a bit confusing how Whaley described the jacket.

Earlene Roberts compounds the problem by seeing Oswald just wearing a LIGHT colored shirt with long sleeves when he entered the boarding house.

NO WONDER it took 25 volumes of WC to explain the LN theory. 😳

So Frazier AND Marina said the jacket Oswald wore to work on Friday was CE 162 the LIGHT GRAY jacket?

Marina doesn't remember the last time she saw CE163, which is odd considering that CT's believe that CE163 was at the house she was staying at for almost the last two weeks? She also didn't see Oswald get dressed that morning, so she hasn't a clue about what he was wearing.

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit 163?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence.

JohnM