The Brown Paper Bag

[Michael Capasse]

No worries, happy to educate you.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I will mark as "723" and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. 726----
Mr. BELIN. No; 723.
Mr. DAY. 723 is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Was it taken under your direction and supervision, Mr. Day?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I was present. The two metal boxes you will note to the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the picture with a wide-angle lens camera.
Mr. BELIN. When you say to the left----
Mr. DAY. To the right.
Mr. BELIN. You mean as you face the picture to the right.
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle on Exhibit 723 your fingerprint equipment?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I will ask you to state if you know if this picture was taken before any of the boxes shown on 723 were moved.
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge they had not been moved.

And besides Day's testimony, Oswald's rifle bag that we see on top of the sniper's nest boxes was photographed being taken out of the building and later that evening was taken across the country.

JohnM

too bad there is NO date.
DPD was in and out of SN all weekend -and the bag didn't go to Washington

  Educate me? - You'll need to learn some basic facts first

[John Corbett]

I don't know what the forum record is for most misstatements in one post is, but you have to be close to it if you haven't broken it.

What misstatements would that be? Be precise..... go on then.

Oswald's print on the bag is not by itself proof of his guilt but it is probative. Rarely is a proof beyond a reasonable doubt made on a single piece of evidence. This is what conspiracy hobbyists (yes, you are one) fail to understand.

Oh, I do understand that better than you think. The problem is that this particular bag is actually a stand alone item, which you can not tie to Oswald's trip to Irving. You can not show this was the bag Oswald carried, nor can you show the bag ever contained a rifle and you most certainly can not show that this particular bag was ever in Frazier's car, where it would have had to have been if it had any connection to the rifle. You can't even autheticate it. And with that the probative value of that item of evidence is reduced to an absolute minimum! You can present anything you like as evidence. It happens on a daily basis in courts all over the country. But evidence isn't automatically proof of anything. And that's where you go off the rails time after time!

You seem to think it is significant that nobody saw Oswald make the paper bag. How does that preclude Oswald from having made the paper bag?

It doesn't. But Oswald's opportunity to make that bag was limited. In addition we know that the materials used to create the bag came from the packaging department of the TSBD and the tape used was such that it needed to be applied there and then. In other words, the claim that Oswald made the bag for the sole purpose of collecting and transporting a rifle from Irving relies on Oswald having been able to make that bag on Thursday afternoon! If Oswald had no opportunity to make the bag within the limited time frame the entire theory around the bag goes out of the window.

Did any witness see somebody else making the bag out of TSBD paper?

I don't know if anybody ever tried to find out, but, as you said, if nobody saw the bag being made why must it have been made by Oswald and not somebody else?

Somebody made that paper bag and did so without being seen by a witness. The forensic evidence makes it highly probative that it was Oswald who made the bag.

Really? Explain why? Just because a print of Oswald was found on that bag? Are you that superficial?

The Warren Commission made the case for Oswald's guilt and they provided us with conclusive evidence of that guilt far beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that unreasonable people choose to dismiss that evidence does not establish reasonable doubt.

Hilarious... a guy, considering himself to be reasonable, is stating that people who do not find the evidence conclusive (it's far from it actually) are unreasonable. Just think about that for a moment and perhaps you will find out all by yourself just how truly pathetic that statement really is!

I did not speculate that Oswald brought a different bag into the TSBD at some unknown time.

I never said you did.

I was simply pointing out the logical conundrum you and other conspiracy hobbyists have created for themselves by disputing the bag found in the TSBD after the shooting was the same bag Frazier saw Oswald with.

There is no logical conundrum. It is a fact that Frazier, on Friday evening, was shown the bag allegedly found on the 6th floor and denied it was the one Oswald had carried.

I find it far more likely that the two bags are one and the same

What you consider to be likely is hardly of any significance.

but if you insist on claiming there were two different bag, then you have to accept that the bag Frazier saw disappeared without a trace 

This is getting beyond comical. Oswald carried a bag into the TSBD at 8 AM. That's the bag Frazier saw. Kennedy wasn't shot until 12.30 PM which allows for 4,5 hours to dispose of a bag. So, let's get real for a moment. There is no evidence that the TSBD was ever searched for that bag, so for all we know it was simply somewhere in a dustbin all the time. No big mystery needed.

and that another bag bearing Oswald's prints, long enough to hold the disassembled rifle, and containing fibers matching his rifle blanket was brought into the TSBD at some unknown time.

And what exactly makes you think the bag allegedly found on the 6th floor ever left the TSBD or ever contained a rifle? As for the fibers, first of all, how could there still be fibers in the bag, as it was brought out of the TSBD upside down? And secondly, have you seen the evidence photos showing the bag and the blanket next to eachother?

You question why Frazier didn't see the bag when he took Oswald to Irving on Thursday evening. The bag had numerous creases in it indicating it had been folded up. It would be easy to conceal the folded up bag inside a jacket. Did you really need me to explain that to you?

Well, we know that Frazier never claimed to have seen the bag on Thursday. As it was folded, I assume you think Oswald hit it under his jacket, right? So, let's follow that train of thought; Oswald makes the bag at the TSBD, folds it and then in Irving unfolds it. He then carries the bag in the cup of his hand and once on the 6th floor folds the bag again and puts it (of all possible places) in the sniper's nest and the only print he leaves on the bag is a print from his hand when he carried the bag in the cup of his hand. Nothing strange there, right? Massive handling of a bag and leaving only one print. Wow!

The you ask "What body of evidence would that be?". I just got done listing it for you. I am not responsible for your poor reading comprehension. You can lead a horse to water...

There is the so-called "reasonable" guy again, claiming somebody has poor reading comprehension for not blindly accepting the BS Mr Reasonable considers conclusive or persuasive.

You ask how much thought I have put into this case. I have been dealing with conspiracy hobbyists online for 35 years.

And after 35 years you still haven't learned anything? Pfffff I know you find me unreasonable, but unlike you, I have learned a number of things in my discussions with LNs and in some cases I have actually changed my point of view on a particular subject. But perhaps one has to be unreasonable to being able to learn something new.

What it comes down to is that conspiracy hobbyists cannot seem to solve the equation 2 + 2 = x.

Do you really think your childish insults make your case any more credible?

You claim the evidence of Oswald's guilt is weak and questionable. It only seems that way to people who simply refuse to accept the conclusion that Oswald assassinated JFK

Ah.. a different version of the same crappy "I'm the reasonable one" argument.

You went on a long diatribe to dispute my claim that conspiracy hobbyists look at the evidence piecemeal instead of looking at it as a whole. In so doing, you demonstrated my claim to be true. You did exactly what I said. You refuse to look at the evidence as a body, because you know there is only one possible explanation that takes in ALL the evidence and that is a conclusion you simply refuse to accept.

You haven't got a clue what I looked at. In fact, the way I got involved in this case is by reading the WC report and finding it's conclusions were not supported by the evidence. If the evidence had supported their claims I wouldn't have been here. You have indeed fallen for the fantasy story told by the WC.

There are two types of people who dispute the fact that Oswald was the assassin. Those who don't know the body of evidence of his guilt and those who know the evidence and refuse to accept what that evidence tells us.

Somewhere in this nonsense you really should have used the words "in my opinion". Do I know the evidence? Yes I do, and unlike you I think it's possible that I'm wrong, and I do indeed do not consider the evidence persuasive or conclusive. What I find strange and remarkable is that a guy like you, who clearly considers himself to be reasonable (but isn't) can not produce a single solid argument to convince somebody like me that I am wrong about something. Now, why is that?

The latter group (which you seem to be a member of) have as much credibility as flat earthers and moon landing deniers. Do you have reasonable doubts that the earth is a sphere or that our astronauts landed on the moon over 50 years ago and another group is now returning from having circled the moon? Either of the positions make about as much sense as denying Oswald was JFK's assassin.

Why do LNs feel the need to make crappy claims like this? Is it perhaps a sign of weakness?

It would be pointless to continue to do a point-by-point rebuttal of your posts. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Suffice it to say you are really, really bad at weighing evidence. You can't see that the accumulative effect of all the probative evidence of his guilt eliminates any reasonable doubt of his guilt. There really isn't much room even for unreasonable doubt. Oswald did it and anyone who can't see that is willfully blind to a very obvious fact. There is no universe in which there could be so much evidence of a man's guilt if he were in fact innocent.

It is duly noted that you failed to support your claim that evidence that should be there is missing or that evidence was "ignored, misrepresented, dismissed and/or suppressed". Why doesn't that surprise me?

PS. I wouldn't feel too bad about your inability to weigh evidence. It seems to be a requirement for anyone who insists on believing Oswald didn't kill JFK.

[Zeon Mason]

Didn’t Linnie May Randle say she saw Oswald gripping the package at the TOP as he was carrying it? So if it’s an 8 lbs rifle, that is a forceful grip  which should have left a whole palm print  at the TOP of the bag.

Instead there only a palm print in the middle of the bag. Maybe it could be argued that if there was a print at the top of bag that it evaporated because of  longer time of 3 hours from when Oswald had carried the bag into the adjacent loading dock building at 8:30 am and left it somewhere hidden until about 11:45 when the workers on 6th floor took the lunchbreak.

So then the middle of the bag print would be explained by:

A. Oswald,  incredibly stupid ( or doesn’t care?)  transported  the rifle still in the bag with his bare hands to the 6th floor SE window at 12:23 ( just after Bonnie Ray Williams had left the 6th floor)  and  Oswald had only about 2minutes to arrange the box on the window ledge just before 12:25 when Bronson film starts. So hastily conceived plan= lots of stupid mistakes.

Note here: it is not likely that  Oswald could have placed the box in the window ledge earlier than 12:23 because Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor from about 12:05-12:23 and workers were on the 6th floor from 9:00-11:45am. ( also Arnold Rowland saw a black man  in the SE window at 12:15 which  most probably was BR Williams.)

B. Oswald was stupid/ doesn’t care, so he touches the bag, the  rifle and the boxes with bare hands rather than wearing  gloves.

C: Oswald stupid/ careless, left the bag which he had just touched with his bare hands at the SN and even took time to fold it back up?
 
IDK what Oswald’s  state of mind was after he was rejected by Marina on Tuesday night but if he was manic depressive or a bipolar personality it’s possible that a combination of anger and hopelessness could explain really stupid mistakes in handling rifle, bag and boxes with bare hands.

And if Oswald was a schizophrenic, there’s the possibility that A. Hidell was the alternate more agitated Oswald. It may be time to dig up the body and see if modern science can determine anything.

[John Corbett]

It seems really stupid to disassemble a rifle to lessen the length by only 2 inches.

The assembled rifle was 40.1 inches long. Disassembled, the longest piece was the wood stock which was 34.8 inches. The bag was 38 inches, so if he hadn't disassembled the rifle, 2 inches of the barrel would have been sticking out the top of the bag. By disassembling the rifle, Oswald saved 6.3 inches.

It should be noted that the ad Oswald responded to was for a 36 inch Carcano carbine. By the time Klein's received the ad, they had sold out of the carbines so they substituted a Model 91 short rifle which was 40.1 inches long. We can't know for sure, but Oswald might have assembled the bag believing the rifle 36 inches long which would explain why he only made the bag 38 inches long. If that is the case, it must have been a rude surprise for him when he saw 2 inches of the rifle sticking out of the top. I'll bet he was pissed. At that point he had to make do with the bag he had made and he had no choice but to disassemble it so it could fit in the bag.

[Michael Capasse]

Mr. BALL - When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please,
and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.



There is no reason to believe the rifle was ever broken down and put into that bag.

[John Corbett]

Didn’t Linnie May Randle say she saw Oswald gripping the package at the TOP as he was carrying it? So if it’s an 8 lbs rifle, that is a forceful grip  which should have left a whole palm print  at the TOP of the bag.

Instead there only a palm print in the middle of the bag. Maybe it could be argued that if there was a print at the top of bag that it evaporated because of  longer time of 3 hours from when Oswald had carried the bag into the adjacent loading dock building at 8:30 am and left it somewhere hidden until about 11:45 when the workers on 6th floor took the lunchbreak.

So then the middle of the bag print would be explained by:

A. Oswald,  incredibly stupid ( or doesn’t care?)  transported  the rifle still in the bag with his bare hands to the 6th floor SE window at 12:23 ( just after Bonnie Ray Williams had left the 6th floor)  and  Oswald had only about 2minutes to arrange the box on the window ledge just before 12:25 when Bronson film starts. So hastily conceived plan= lots of stupid mistakes.

Note here: it is not likely that  Oswald could have placed the box in the window ledge earlier than 12:23 because Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor from about 12:05-12:23 and workers were on the 6th floor from 9:00-11:45am. ( also Arnold Rowland saw a black man  in the SE window at 12:15 which  most probably was BR Williams.)

B. Oswald was stupid/ doesn’t care, so he touches the bag, the  rifle and the boxes with bare hands rather than wearing  gloves.

C: Oswald stupid/ careless, left the bag which he had just touched with his bare hands at the SN and even took time to fold it back up?
 
IDK what Oswald’s  state of mind was after he was rejected by Marina on Tuesday night but if he was manic depressive or a bipolar personality it’s possible that a combination of anger and hopelessness could explain really stupid mistakes in handling rifle, bag and boxes with bare hands.

And if Oswald was a schizophrenic, there’s the possibility that A. Hidell was the alternate more agitated Oswald. It may be time to dig up the body and see if modern science can determine anything.

Any theories about Oswald's state of mind or his thought process is pure speculation. We can never know what Oswald was thinking at any given time. It is my belief that he didn't expect to get away with the crime. He didn't think he was going to get away with it had he succeeded in killing General Walker so I doubt he had any expectation of getting away with the JFKA. As already stated, that's pure speculation.

[John Corbett]

Mr. BALL - When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please,
and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.



There is no reason to believe the rifle was ever broken down and put into that bag.

How about Oswald's palm print on the underside of the barrel. That could only have been placed there with the rifle disassembled. The we have the fibers in the bag that matched the blanket Oswald stored his rifle in when it was in Paine's garage. That ties the rifle to the bag and the bag could only hold a disassembled rifle without sticking out the top of the bag.

As previously noted, you are really, really bad at weighing evidence. That being the case, this hobby doesn't seem to suit you. Maybe you should consider stamp collecting as an alternative.

[John Mytton]

and the bag didn't go to Washington

  Educate me? - You'll need to learn some basic facts first

 

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you state your full name and position?
Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan, special agent of the FBI, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the laboratory here in Washington.
----------------------------
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you conducted that examination?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.
I first saw this paper bag on November 23, 1963, in the FBI laboratory, along with the sample of paper and tape from the Texas School Book Depository obtained November 22, 1963, which is FBI Exhibit D-1.



JohnM